HomeMy WebLinkAbout2002-05-06 Transcription May 6, 2002 Special Work Session Page 1
May 6, 2002 Special Work Session 6:32 PM
Council: Lehman, Champion, O'Donnell, Vanderhoef, Wilburn, Pfab, Kanner
Staff: Atkins, Helling, Karr, Dilkes, Franklin, Fowler, O'Brien, Craig, Matthews,
Winkelhake, Trueblood
TAPES: 02-39, SIDE TWO; 02-43, BOTH SIDES; 02-44, SIDE ONE
Planning & Zoning
A. PUBLIC HEARiNG ON AN ORDiNANCE TO AMEND SECTION 14-6K-2 OF
THE ZONiNG ORDiNANCE, FLOOD PLAiN MANAGEMENT, iN ORDER
TO REMOVE THE REQUIREMENT FOR FILL BEYOND THE AREA OF A
STRUCTURE, UPDATE VARIOUS DEFINITIONS AND REFERENCES, AND
TO ACKNOWLEDGE THE NEW FLOOD INSURANCE RATE MAP (FIRM).
Franklin/The first item is a public hearing on an ordinance to amend the flood plain
management ordinance, and this is removing the requirement for fill beyond the
area of a structure. The amendments that are in this ordinance are two fold, one
are housekeeping issues such as definitional issues and lowest floor substantial
damage. These are changes that are consequence of having taken our flood plain
management ordinance before DNR and working with them and making it
consistent with state and federal law. This amendment also will address the date
for the flood map, we will finally be getting the new FEMA maps in August and
we did a revision to reflect the ability to change the date on the map. But the most
important part is the part about the fill in which fill aside from what is necessary
to raise the lowest habital floor one foot above the 100 year flood plain will not be
required, it is not required at the state level or the federal level and there just was
no reason to have it in.
Lehman/Okay.
Pfab/My point is isn't the idea of building in a flood plain a way of impeding the flow of
water generally, stay out of the flood plain so the water can go where it has to go?
Franklin/Right but by the requirement of having the lowest floor elevation for any
construction in the flood plain one foot above the 100 year level it is based on a
premise that you could do that throughout the entire flood plain and you would
still, and it's calculated such that you would have enough capacity within the
channel that remains, both the channel that the water's typically going through and
the overflow area, there would be enough capacity them to handle a 100 year
flood so that's how it's calculated.
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Pfab/But at the same time you would make it easier for the water to find a place if it
wasn't filled so that would be an argument for not wanting to build is my point.
Franklin/True.
Pfab/It's not fill water as opposed to.
Franklin/True, right, the water has a place to go.
Kanner/Well I have, I don't know if I'm coming from a different angle than Irvin. I do
have some concerns, the federal government has not been the greatest I don't
think in buckling management, this is a, I don't have expertise but just this general
obligation so maybe we need a stricter standards by the Feds and the state. Why
should we be building in 100 year flood plains? These are things that could wreck
the houses maybe we need to keep away from the flooded areas.
Franklin/That would be a significant change in your policy regarding development in the
flood plain, we talked about this after the 93 flood and did an evaluation of those
areas along the Iowa River that were still available for development. The decision
at that time was not to be more restrictive to totally prohibit development in the
flood plain but continue with the regulations that we have since, well much of the
flood plain was already developed or this is the Iowa River flood plain or it was
owned publicly by the city or the University of Iowa. As a Council of course you
can always reconsider that position and come to the conclusion that you wish to
prohibit all development within the 100 year flood plain which would be
consistent with that philosophy of you shouldn't build there at all.
Kanner/Well at least though doesn't this offer some protection? Saying you can't build,
you have to build a foot above?
Franklin/You still have to build a foot, if you are going to put a structure in the flood
plain you have to elevate that structure one foot above the 100 year flood plain,
what this is saying is that you no longer have to extend that fill out beyond the
structure to a certain point, that you do not need to fill the flood plain in excess of
what is needed to support the structure. So that's more consistent really with the
position that you are suggesting that you don't encroach into the flood plain, if
you were to keep the requirement for fill that's more encroachment into the
natural flood plain as Irvin was pointing out.
Lehman/But this is less restrictive than it presently is.
Franklin/Right, it requires less filling of the flood plain.
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Vanderhoef/But what your saying is that we could potentially if it's in the flood plain and
you raise the structure up we could end up having an island when the 100 year
flood comes?
Franklin/No you still have to access to the structure, our street requirements now are that
our streets have to be one foot above the 100 year flood plain also. (can't hear).
Vanderhoef/But what about private drive? If our street is up.
Franklin/Well I suppose you theoretically could have go from a street down and then up
the practicality of that is, I mean I don't know why anybody would do that.
O'Donnell/That would be very unwise in a flood plain.
Franklin/Pardon me.
O'Donnell/It would probably be very unwise to do that in a flood plain.
Franklin/It probably would yea.
Vanderhoef/Well we have areas in the city right now that got cut off in that same respect.
Franklin/This existing regulation is not covering what your suggesting anyway, I mean
before we make this change it is not necessarily going to require that somebody's
driveway be elevated to a foot above the 100 year flood plain, that's not required
now and is not addressed in this amendment.
Champion/Right and (can't hear).
Lehman/Once every 100 years they probably can live with it.
Wilburn/This amendment Karin, is this the one that came up because someone wanted to
do an addition to their home? Put a deck on.
Franklin/Yea, I think on Fourth Avenue or someplace in the Ralston Creek water shed.
Champion/Anyway.
Pfab/I feel pretty strong about building in the flood plains if we don't have to so I would
be real happy to support that because it's less of a (can't hear).
Franklin/Okay.
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B. CONSIDER AN ORDINANCE AMENDING THE NEIGHBORHOOD
COMMERCIAL, CN-1, ZONE TO BROADEN THE USES ALLOWED AND
TO REVIEW THE DIMENSIONAL REQUIREMENTS AND DESIGN
PROVISIONS. (SECOND CONSIDERATION)
Franklin/The second item is second consideration of the amendments of the CN-1 zone.
C. CONSDER AN ORDINANCE AMENDING THE ZONING CODE, ARTICLE 0,
SIGN REGULATIONS, TO PERMIT PORTABLE SIGNS 1N THE CENTRAL
BUSINESS SERVICE, CB-2, CENTRAL BUSINESS SUPPORT, CB-5, AND
CENTRAL BUSINESS, CB-10, ZONES. (SECOND CONSIDERATION)
Franklin/Item C is second consideration of amendments to the portable sign regulations
in the downtown.
D. CONSDER AN ORDINANCE REZONING 5.45 ACRES FROM RURAL
RESIDENTIAL (RR-1) AND INTERIM DEVELOPMENT SINGLE FAMILY
RESIDENTIAL (ID-RS) TO LOW DENSITY SINGLE FAMILY RESIDENTIAL
(RS-5) LOCATED AT THE NORTHWEST CORNER OF ROHRET ROAD
AND PHOENIX DRIVE. (REZ02-00001) (PASS AND ADOPT)
Franklin/Item D pass and adopt on the item that you just did second consideration of at
your special meeting.
E. CONSIDER AN ORDINANCE REZONING 18.2 ACRES FROM LOW DENSITY
SINGLE-FAMILY (RS-5) TO SENSITiVE AREAS OVERLAY LOW DENSITY
SINGLE-FAMILY (OSA-5) AND A PRELIMINARY SENSITiVE AREAS
DEVELOPMENT PLAN FOR HICKORY HEIGHTS, A 20-LOT
RESDENTIAL SUBDIVISION LOCATED WEST OF SCOTT BOULEVARD
NEAR ITS INTERSECTION WITH DODGE STREET. (REZ01-00028/
SUB01-00031) (PASS AND ADOPT)
F. CONSIDER A RESOLUTION APPROVING THE PRELIMINARY PLAT OF
HICKORY HEIGHTS.
Item E is pass and adopt on the sensitive areas ordinance for the Hickory Heights
subdivision.
Pfab/On the Hickory Heights pass and adopt what?
Franklin/Pass and adopt on the sensitive areas overlay, the zoning part of it. Okay.
Pfab/No.
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Franklin/No, okay. The zoning was, it was zoned RS-5 because there were sensitive
areas on the property it needed to go to OSA-5 a sensitive areas overlay. You
have had the public hearing and two considerations on that sensitive areas overlay
which is the zoning on the property. The next step is the platting and your next
item then Item F is the preliminary plat, ifI can get this.
Pfab/According to the Planning & Zoning Commission meeting the other night there are
unsettled items of that I have gone past the ability of the Planning & Zoning
Committee to impose because they already have approved the preliminary plat, we
have not, and I think until those things are worked out we should not approve the
preliminary plat, it has, in just what it is, is the fact that there is a certain amount
of planting in the area that is not disturbed over a period of time and there's a list
of what needs to be done and future use of that undisturbed land which has not
been worked through.
Franklin/Okay, your partially correct.
Pfab/Okay.
Franklin/Let me just explain to the rest of the people who were not at the Planning &
Zoning Commission meeting. The sensitive areas ordinance addresses the
sensitive features on this property, the steep and critical slopes, the protected
slopes, with the sensitive areas overlay we had a designation of a construction area
which is defined by this blue line and then we have the designation of the
protected area which is the orange area and.
Lehman/I like Technicolor better.
Franklin/I don't have the mouse hooked up and so I'm not very good at this sorry. Okay,
the orange areas are protected, the yellow is the steep and critical slopes, what the
sensitive areas overlay says is that within the area that is not in the construction
area is outside of the protected slopes that there will be a requirement that there be
minimizing of grading on those steep and critical slopes, that's consistent with the
sensitive areas ordinance, that's required by the sensitive areas ordinance. And
what we discussed was putting on the preliminary and final plat a note which
indicates that these areas can only be minimally graded and if there's any
disturbance of the vegetation that it needs to be replanted with certain plants
which would be listed in the covenance of the subdivision. At the preliminary
plat you are looking at the infrastructure, the roads, the sewer, the water, the
outline of the lots, with the final plat which is before the Planning & Zoning
Commission now you also look at the legal papers, this is where you get the legal
documents that are recorded that make this a lean, a covenant on the property.
Champion/And Karin is that where the type of plants that would be planted would be
addressed?
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Franklin/Yes, in the legal papers we will have a requirement that those restrictive
covenants are included in the legal papers which we review, there will be a list of
plants which are the plants that, plant list that we got from Wayne Peterson that
everybody agreed to when we went through this initially. What Irvin is referring
to is that you probably will hear from the Friends of Hickory Hill who are
concerned about the enforcement of this. And enforcement of it as we've
discussed before will be difficult, it will be on a complaint basis, we do not have
the staff to go out and check what people are planting in their back yards so it will
be a complaint basis either from somebody in the park or from somebody who
lives in the subdivision. Additionally the Friends of Hickory Hill may ask you to
consider amending the list of plants, what we have advised the Planning & Zoning
Commission is that we have gone as far as we think we can go given the sensitive
areas ordinance and the fact that this is zoned RS-5 that the developers have
agreed to put this covenant on the property, to require certain plantings and that
there is a list of those plantings.
Dilkes/And can.
Pfab/Interruption, I understand the list does not exist.
Franklin/It does exist Irvin.
Champion/It does exist.
Pfab/Where, that was the, that's what I.
Franklin/ Okay often with the legal papers at the Planning & Zoning Commission it is
voted on subject to final approval of the legal papers. Those legal papers in their
final approval will need to include the restrictive covenants with the list before it
gets to you.
Champion/Okay.
Franklin/The point that your at now is the final reading on the zoning and the preliminary
plat resolution. The next thing you will see after it goes through the Planning &
Zoning Commission is the final plat and at that time it will have the restrictive
covenants with the list of plants with it.
Champion/That was the question.
Dilkes/And I just, I want to add just two things to that, the issue in front of you still is as
it has been all the way along whether the sensitive areas ordinance is complied
with. The language that the developer has agreed to actually goes beyond the
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language of the sensitive areas ordinance by identifying the vegetation or the
species that have to be planted if there is disturbance.
Champion/Okay.
Dilkes/That is a step beyond what the sensitive areas ordinance provides.
O'Donnell/Good.
Dilkes/And secondly the enforcement issues are the same enforcement issues that we
encounter with these types of issues all the time and frankly that's a function of
the ordinance and not a function of this particular development.
Pfab/Okay what about the land that is not disturbed how is that going to be managed
down through the years?
Franklin/The orange area, the protected slopes, that is not touched, it will be the way it
always been.
Pfab/But who owns the land?
Franklin/The individual property owners will own the land, it will have over it that area
is designated that it can not be disturbed and it's on the plat.
Pfab/So let's say there's a barberry bush in there they can't even go down and chop it
down.
Franklin/No.
Pfab/Okay, all right, and now will each one of those deeds be have this, every time that
we let there be a deed restriction recorded or each lot.
Franklin/It's a, well go ahead.
Dilkes/Restrictive covenants rrm with the land, they will appear in the abstract of every
lot that is sold. It would be, there as effective as if they appeared on the deed for
the particular lot.
Pfab/As effective, okay the reason, we've had several cases here and I prefer to not, we,
disturb old scabs, sores, there were several times, one where a bunch of trees were
cut down and that was tough, couldn't put it back so we had to move on and then
the other thing I think some (can't hear) dumped on some little creatures and we
had to go on we couldn't do anything about it because it was done. Now up here,
how does the public, how is the public's interest protected?
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Franklin/That issue Irvin I think is one that is always there, whenever your talking about
natural features we go as far as we can go short of posting people to stand patrol.
Pfab/Maybe we should.
Lehman/Well let's move on.
Franklin/I don't think you have resources to do that.
Kanner/But actually though maybe we do in the preliminary plat, maybe we need to put
signs up there that talks about some of these issues because these things do tend to
get buried over the years and we say wait until the final plat.
Pfab/Yes can we get?
Kanner/I think we can we put, we don't have to have exact language I think in the
preliminary plat we can start talking about some loose language and then finalize
it in the final plat.
Champion/It will be in the legal papers of the final plat.
Kanner/Let's put some talk about it in the preliminary one.
Franklin/In the preliminary plat Steven it means nothing.
Pfab/Well we can, but when we approve the preliminary plat we're stuck we can't do it
because we approved the preliminary plat tough.
Dilkes/No, the preliminary plat, no wait a minute, the preliminary plat includes the
language that we, I mean it's on there.
Franklin/Yes it's on there.
Dilkes/It's on there, so it specifically says that they will be included in the restrictive and
protective covenants, so language is on the preliminary plat.
Pfab/So there will be nothing added after we, after, there will be nothing added in the
final plat that is not approved in the preliminary?
Franklin/What we have with the final plat we have the same language on the plat that's
on the preliminary that says you can't disturb that land and if you take any of the
vegetation out you have to plant it with these other plants. That will also be in a
document that will be recorded at the County Recorder's office and will be a
covenant running with the land so the final plat goes beyond the preliminary in
making a legal record of that restriction.
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Dilkes/And the issue for your consideration of the preliminary plat is that the preliminary
plat complies with the ordinances of the city. In fact the note on the preliminary
plat quite arguably goes beyond the requirement.
Lehman/Okay.
G. CONSIDER A RESOLUTION APPROVING THE FINAL PLAT OF LINDEMANN
SUBDIVISION PART ONE, A 15.05 ACRE, 33-LOT RESIDENTIAL
SUBDIVISION LOCATED NORTH OF COURT STREET, EAST OF SCOTT
PARK DRIVE. (SUB02-00002)
H. CONSDER A RESOLUTION APPROVING THE FINAL PLAT OF LINDEMANN
SUBDIVISION PART TWO, A 16.97 ACRE, 29-LOT RESIDENTIAL
SUBDIVISION LOCATED NORTH OF COURT STREET, EAST OF SCOTT
PARK DRIVE. (SUB02-00002)
Franklin/Okay Item G and H are the final plats for Lindemann Subdivision part one and
two.
Pfab/May I ask a point just for a point of information. Are there any changes between
those and preliminary?
Franklin/No.
Pfab/Absolutely zip, zero.
Franklin/Not that I'm aware of.
Pfab/All right, I'm asking that's all.
Franklin/I think I'm done, yes, I am.
Lehman/Oh Karin before you.
Franklin/I'll be here.
Lehman/But while your still there can I just ask you to update us on the, we're all aware
that we're doing a rather comprehensive codes.
Franklin/Yes.
Lehman/Reevaluation and if you could kind of tell us the procedure and when and how it
will be done so that we as the Council and the public know about when we might
expect it.
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Dilkes/I'm sorry, is this on the agenda? Where are we?
Pfab/Is it on the agenda?
Champion/Oh it's Council time.
(Can't hear).
Lehman/I don't know if it's in the info. packet or not.
Franklin/It's probably Council time, we'll do it later.
O'Donnell/It's all in the plan Emie.
All talking
Champion/Did you read a word of that Ernie?
Pfab/Not a word, I couldn't even tell a.
Lehman/You could pass it out and we just won't read it until tomorrow.
Kanner/Yea it's in the info. package Emie.
Lehman/On the, all right.
Kanner/The memo we got.
Lehman/All right, I'm sorry.
Agenda Items
Karr/Mr. Mayor I'd just like to note the addition of one agenda to the resolution to the
consent calendar and that's the, another accepting payment for civil payment for
Aajaxxx.
Lehman/Okay that's 5e(ll). Any agenda comments?
Vanderhoef/The signage that's in the, talked about in the consent calendar for the transit
interchange.
O'Donnell/Which one Dee?
Vanderhoef/It's on the second page of the, it's Item E number 1.
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Lehman/El, okay.
Vanderhoef/I don't think we've seen that.
Champion/No we haven't.
Kanner/Yea the picture's not clear.
Lehman/Yea it's black.
(All talking)
Lehman/Iowa City Transit, it's kind of spelled out IOWA.
Kanner/Black minimal.
O'Donnell/Are you happy with this?
Vanderhoef/Just fine, it was the black blotch there but.
Atkins/Yea it was a blob in your packet.
Lehman/ Okay now we've seen that.
Vanderhoef/Thank you.
Lehman/Is this the end of agenda items? Dee are you going to discuss the City steps at
all?
Vanderhoef/That will have to be at the tomorrow night.
Lehman/All right, fine, okay.
ITEM NO. 16. CONSIDER A RESOLUTION ADOPTING IOWA CITY'S FY03
ANNUAL ACTION PLAN, THAT IS PART OF IOWA CITY'S 2001-2006
CONSOLIDATED PLAN (CITY STEPS) AS AMENDED, AND
AUTHORIZING THE CITY MANAGER TO SUBMIT SAID PLAN AND ALL
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NECESSARY CERTIFICATIONS TO THE U. S. DEPARTMENT OF
HOUSING AND URBAN DEVELOPMENT, AND DESIGNATING THE CITY
MANAGER AS THE AUTHORIZED CHIEF EXECUTiVE OFFICER FOR
THE CONSOLIDATED PLAN.
Kanner/Well actually I'd like to since you brought that up, propose an amendment that
we take, that we fund, the Repair program, elderly services, move it from $5,000.
Wilburn/Excuse me Steven, I'm going to, withdraw from this conversation.
Vanderhoef/I think we need to do this then at Council Time or Tomorrow.
Champion/Well it's on the agenda.
Lehman/Agenda item.
Kanner/Agenda item and we agree that we're going to try to talk about agenda items the
night before. That will, we move it from $5,000 to current level of $40,000 and
that the money come from the Economic Development money.
Champion/And I don't have my City Steps with me and I'm going to move that we take
the money from that study.
Vanderhoeff For EHP.
Champion/For EHP and give that to the repair service because I think we need to take
care of what we have, that explains with the possibilities.
O'Donnell/I agree with that.
Vanderhoef/Well I'll then go ahead and put out mine that I'll put out tomorrow night. I
will be asking for a three percent loan on the housing project Garden Prairie and
also I will be asking for 30 year affordability since that's the length of the loan
and I think the affordability for the project should be the same length as the loan.
And presently what's in the proposal sent to us by HCDC is 20 years eligibility to
keep it affordable.
Champion/That's a really good point Dee.
Lehman/It is because the loan is 30 years and the affordability issue is only 20.
Pfab/So your changing the loan, your asking to change the loan in what way?
Vanderhoef/Right now if your talking about the loan, it's a zero percent loan, and I'm
going to ask for a three percent loan on the home dollars that go into this project.
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Kanner/I think, wasn't it one percent?
O'Donnell/I thought it was one percent.
Lehman/I thought it was one percent.
Vanderhoef/Well in any occasion three is what I'm going to ask for and then the
affordability piece is that they had proposed that the units stay affordable for 20
years even though their loan is for 30 years and I'm going to say that,
philosophically I believe we should be having the affordability the same length as
the terms of the loan.
Pfab/What is that going to do to the cost of rents and the affordability and your talking
City Steps and City Steps says our greatest need is area low income housing and
how many people will that not be, will that remove from that possibility of living?
Vanderhoef/That is one of the things that we'll never know and I'm suggesting that there
are other places in their construction plans that they could change so that they
don't have to raise the rent because I'll be looking at what they charge for rent and
how it compares with the general market in Iowa City. If they are coming in,
they're not coming in much. lower right now so I suspect that if they come in at
market rate for any other private project then I would consider looking at a
different place to put our home funds into different kind of housing.
Pfab/Well what, what information would you have to have to be convinced that you are
possibility going to exclude a fair amount of the population that's in need of low,
low or low, low income people, and what point, how many are collateral damage
and we can just raise it and they won't be able to (can't hear)?
Champion/I don't think that's what she's talking about.
Vanderhoef/No, what I'm talking about is getting the most good use out of our CDBG
and our home funds and if it takes all of this public money and all we're getting an
affordable place to live that is at the same market value that the private enterprise
can do then I think we have other places where we can get a better bang for our
buck for our federal dollars.
Pfab/Okay you made a statement tonight I wasn't, I lost one of those terms. You said at
the same rate, go over that part again.
Vanderhoef/If they're coming in at the same rate for rent as what we get in the private
market without using all of these federal dollars then I think I would find a
different place to use my federal dollars where I will get a better rate.
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Pfab/So what your saying is you need to be shown that there's a difference in the rate of
rent because of the fact that the home dollars are there. You do not agree that the
need is there.
Vanderhoef/I don't disagree with the need, there's always the need.
Pfab/But your point is the home dollars are not getting enough bang for their buck is that
your point?
Champion/It might not be.
Pfab/But the other point is I believe your going, are you invited to this Emergency
Housing meeting board meeting?
Vanderhoef/I think we all are.
Lehman/I think we all got one.
Vanderhoef/That was in the packet.
Pfab/Okay, I think at that point your going to find out why that study is so critical, I think
to take money from take I think.
Vanderhoef/The study.
Pfab/The they want to take the money to give to homeless.
Kanner/That's one of the other amendments then, hopefully we'll talk about it tomorrow
but your question though about rents, I think will be good if the people who are to
receive the money come to us and talk to us that, bring us information, if they say
the rents are going to go up substantially that will influence me perhaps so I think
it's incumbent on them to come, they've heard some of the proposed amendments
and we'll talk about it.
Pfab/Okay that's fine I just wanted to isolate what, obviously there's something that's
you have a disagreement with and that's fine I just wanted to know what it was.
Lehman/Well tomorrow night we're going to be talking about the possibility of using
Economic Development funds or the funds that have been used for planning and
we're also going to be talking about a three percent. I mean these are issues that I
hear tonight.
Pfab/Right.
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Lehman/A three percent loan and also the affordability issue being a 30 year requirement
instead of a 20 years.
Pfab/That one doesn't give me a lot of problem but.
Lehman/Well we'll talk about those tomorrow night, is there anything else on the agenda
we want to discuss?
O'Donnell/Nope.
Lehman/All right.
Vanderhoef/Can we post the resignation that we have in the, there's a letter of
resignation, can we post that vacancy?
Karr/It is on your agenda, you mean the one you have from Human Rights?
Vanderhoef/I missed it, okay I see it, got it, thank you.
Karr/That's the one.
Historic Preservation Commission
Historic Preservation Commission appointments I think we received no applications.
Champion/I didn't see any.
Library Parking (IP5 of 4/18 info. packet), (IP 1 of 5/2 info. packet)
Lehman/Library parking, did I see Joe?
Lehman/Okay Joe. We all got a memo from Joe and I think we're all familiar with the
inconvenience and whatever and the parking situation around the, adjacent to the
library, half the lots presently being occupied by construction equipment and will
be probably that way for what a year and a half.
Joe Fowler/Yea.
Lehman/At the end of which time hopefully there will be construction starting on that lot
which will eliminate all of the surface parking and Joe I don't what to put words
in your mouth but would you like to reiterate your memo.
Fowler/Well basically there are a couple options that we could do to put short term
parking in the Dubuque Street parking ramp. We could install the equipment that
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would separate the Dubuque Street ramp into two different parking areas or we
could sign the lower level that says that it's a two hour parking area. Both are
possible to do, both I think have some negative impacts on the perception that the
public would end up having of the City because of our experience in the Capital
Street parking ramp, we had a lot of negative feedback, a lot of bad publicity for
the city with that plan. The drawback with the equipment is if your going to the
hotel and if you pull into the wrong side of the parking ramp, park your car, get in
the hotel or go park your car and go downtown and shop or whatever. If you don't
see the sign when you pull in when you go to leave your going to have a higher
fee than you expect. With the signs the problem is that we would go through and
mark your tires, chalk them just like we do in a loading zone and come back in
two hours and give you a $5.00 ticket for staying too long and then collect $.60
cents an hour from you as you go to leave. We've had no success in doing that in
the Capital Street ramp.
Lehman/That was an absolute nightmare over there.
Fowler/Yes. In November of 2001 Old Capital Center requested that we reinstitute that
and at that time we denied that because of the reaction we've had in the past.
Champion/Well we've got to find something to do with short term parking for that
library because there will be a time, actually there won't be any parking on that lot
isn't that true? I mean when the hotel starts to be built them won't be any
parking.
Fowler/Right as soon as that starts there won't be any more. I mean I think, basically the
problem is there are parking places available in the Dubuque Street ramp, it
requires that you drive to the top floor or next to the top floor to find them mid
day and I think that the objections that I've heard are that you have to drive up to
the top of the ramp to find a parking place to go to the elevator to go to the library.
Vanderhoef/Which is the same as it is if you are going to any business downtown and
you want short term parking, which is the same people who have been using the
surface lot.
Fowler/Yes.
Champion/Well are there any other possibilities that anybody's come up with?
Fowler/Well I've been thinking about it since we've gotten the Library's letter, there are
several things there about 44 parking meters within a block of the library. Our
study show that probably 20 percent of those are being occupied by meter feeders
so we could chalk tires in the area of the library to increase turnover there which
would probably be eight more spaces an hour.
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Champion/Are they one or two hour meters?
Fowler/Oh there's a mixture of them in that area. Another thing we could do is go to a
shorter term meter, we could go back to a 30 minute meter but I don't think that
necessarily meets the needs of the library patrons.
Pfab/What is the, what is the need of the library, what is the minimum (can't hear)?
Champion/An hour is the minimum I would think.
Lehman/Susan if you want to come up here, (can't hear).
Pfab/So is there, of those meters that are close by there are there any there that are not
hour meters at this point?
Fowler/Yea let me look that up for you while Susan's coming up.
Susan Craig/I think an hour meter serves people who are coming to the library to do a
little research, get some materials to read, we've had some complaints of course,
about the hour meters you know in 64-1A you used to be able to be in there for
three hours, four hours, I can't remember.
Champion/Three.
Craig/When that become one hour meters a lot of the story time people said it's hard to
get in here with a couple kids, go to story time, get the backs, get checked out and
get back to our car within an hour so for them you know they need 90 minutes so
it's.
Pfab/Well but those are.
Champion/But those are the people who have trouble.
Pfab/But those are more the exception than the rule is that right?
Craig/Well it depends if it's 10:30 in the morning 5 days a week we have, 5 days a week
at 10:30 in the morning we have a children's program and you've got people
coming in there with you know from one to four children and then most of them
have driven to get there.
Kanner/Has your usage gone down this quarter?
Craig/People into the building is, right now is consistent, actually our circulation this
year is up about 10 percent.
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Karmer/And your usage of the building is consistent with previous years?
Craig/Yes, it might be down like just one or two percent, I can't remember.
Pfab/Okay, all right, let me in a sense of just a little brain storm here, what options are
available for the person that comes in with two or three children wants to go to
story time and they say they need an hour and a half. What are the, what's the
continuum of possibility?
Fowler/There are two hour meters on College Street from Linn Street to Gilbert and
that's like 19 meters.
Pfab/Those are two hours.
Fowler/Yes.
Pfab/What about the ones across?
Craig/Or they can go in the ramp, and I mean I think a fair number of them do, you know
you can, as Joe says there are spaces in the Dubuque Street ramp, you can go in
there or you can use the Chauncey Swan ramp. We're trying to educate people
about the new, the Tower Place, we've done a little bookmark that shows you
know where all those things are.
Vanderhoef/Good.
Pfab/So is there enough need, I'm inclined to like to see a turnover there, so I'm inclined
to think that the hour meter, I wish they were all hour meters unless someone
could tell me why they shouldn't be hour out on the street.
Champion/But it isn't just that they're an hour meter, the other thing is that people feed
meters all the time.
Pfab/Well there's a way to do that, I mean to chalk.
Champion/This is people feed meters.
Pfab/Yes but that's the chalking thing.
Champion/Right.
P£ab/And maybe we just have to be a little bit more aggressive I was noticing down on
Iowa Avenue there used to be people, these commercial places could pull in and
some people think that's a parking ramp and they don't even have a commercial
identification on it but it's been a lot more aggressively managed and it's
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amazing, there are places there now and I think it's just a matter of not enforcing
what we have and I think it should be a break even point if you have to put more
people on there to chalk the tires I think that it would pay to do it and would also
be what we as City Council are trying to accomplish and as a library person.
Lehman/You know there's another factor though, even if we chalk the tires and I
certainly am not opposed to that, but if your coming down Washington Street and
you turn right on Linn Street once you get past the Library and there wasn't an
open parking spot you've got to drive six blocks to get back to that point again.
Pfab/Or else go into the ramp.
Lehman/Or else go into the ramp that's exactly the point, I'm not Joe how much do you
think chalking tires would increase turnover in that area?
Fowler/It probably would move between five and ten vehicles out of there.
Lehman/Which would then be replaced by five or ten vehicles almost inunediately as
soon as they left.
Fowler/Right as soon as they left.
Lehman/Is that going to be of any benefit to the library?
Champion/Does the library have any great ideas?
Lehman/Yea that's.
Craig/Well Joe didn't like our great ideas, well speaking from the Library Board I mean
our concern is that there is no lot size visible free spots anywhere near what the
citizen sees as near the library. I mean and we're making a bigger library, you
know I got a pretty vituperative e-mail from someone as this point, he says before
you start your renovation, I thought well he hasn't been downtown in a long time.
You need to think about this parking situation and not build that library there.
Well he was a little late was, you know it's the number one concern we get from
citizens about library service is library parking. And I've been to a lot of libraries
in a lot of cities and I have to say we have just about the worse you have to go to a
very large city, Chicago Public Library does not have any dedicated parking, that's
about where you have to go, there's nothing in Iowa, I mean people in Iowa
complain about their parking and I go yea tell me about it, they all have lots, even
the downtown Davenport Public Library downtown Davenport, they have a lot,
it's pretty small, it's probably 30. The Ames Public Library complains because
their lot is across the single street from them but it's probably 60 to 80 spaces and
it's pretty much just for the library but you know we're in the middle of our active
commercial area and there's a lot of residential people around too and it's active
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all day so it's just. The Board are most concerned about are people with small
children and elderly people, I mean if a healthy person has to walk a half a block
to get to the library I think they're willing to chalk up to those people. But people
who want a short term visit or are bringing two and three kids in a stroller, elderly
people I believe their complaints are very legitimate. Lisa do you want to come
up and add anything?
Champion/What would happen if we had like those the lower when you go into the ramp
that lower floor for library patrons only and you had to have a sticker or
something, I mean because your elderly or have small children and it would be
like a City of Iowa City parking thing, you would go and take your regular thing
but it would say library, it would be like a handicapped, I mean I think we have to
be a little creative here because we obviously are not going to build a parking lot
for the library, it's not going to happen. So have you tossed that around at all?
Lehman/How do you enforce it, you go in and you don't read the sign and you park
where your not suppose to and we charge $5.00 to get out.
Champion/Well if there's a sign right in front of you and you can't see it you deserve a
ticket.
Lehman/Tell me about it over at the Old Capital Center we had signs on every space and
nobody saw them.
Champion/Oh they saw them they just parked there thinking they wouldn't get a ticket,
they saw them.
Parker/I think we recognize how complex the problem is and things that we asked about
in our memo was would it be possible to put a small work group together, you
know people that could talk about the library needs and people on Joe's side of
the fence that could tell us what's possible and what's reasonable and we could
talk about you know what's the average time that people are in there, is changing
the length of time in the nearby meters going to be effective and those sorts of
things. We could come up with ideas here all night probably.
O'Donnell/That's a good idea.
Champion/That's a great idea.
Vanderhoef/There's one other thing though that I think we're missing the piece on is that
how we had the lot set up for short term parking which also then allowed people
to come downtown and go to lunch at one of the many restaurants downtown and
they wanted that option of two hours, they want to go to their lawyer for a 30
minute, 40 minute visit, they want to stop at the accountant, they want to run up to
Capital Center, they're doing a loop of errands, but they wanted that turnover
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piece too so I think we need to talk about parking, short term parking for business
and library, I don't think we can just isolate library.
Parker/Well maybe there's some business people who could be involved in this
conversation.
Vanderhoef/That's the piece that I would like to add and so that those people who have
businesses on College Street and maybe on Washington that are maybe sort of
halfway between they need places that they can run in and out also.
Pfab/You are, if I understood what you were saying, you were suggesting some sort of
short term task fome, with the parking/library people, what about the public and
what about what Dee says business in that area, they want what's available.
Parker/Smaller's better.
Pfab/Yea get them involved, anybody that squeaks is automatically on it.
Wilburn/Joe I want to ask a question just to make sure I understand, I understand the
doubling of the cost of the gate but there are two things that you said, the separate
gate, people getting confused ending up at the wrong term whether short term or
long term, with signage I agree if you make a mistake, you make a mistake. I'm
missing the part about, would it be possible to pull into the short term area, exit to
the long term area and park and then be charged the higher fee. Couldn't you
short term gate and long term gate have two different color of tickets something
like that?
Fowler/That would increase our costs I mean if you, but if you pulled another ticket as
you went. Okay if you went into the short term area and parked, and then as you
left that area and went to the long term area and took another ticket there's good
likelihood that you would then proceed straight to the exit and pay one hour
parking or nothing, that would be the problem I would see with that.
Pfab/All right maybe there's a simpler solution, you say you don't want to get a different
kind of ticket because it runs up the cost. What about the little printer maybe it
could say something different on it, when you get the ticket out it could say
something well this is the library whatever this is short term.
Champion/Well I think we need this little task force.
Lehman/Have you ever read one of your tickets Irvin?
Pfab/Sure.
Lehman/Has anybody else ever read the ticket that gets spit out?
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Craig/The time, like when do I have to be back there, (can't hear).
Pfab/Yea that's right, what time is my time up?
Lehman/What do you folks, what do you want to do?
Champion/I think the task force.
O'Donnell/I think the task force, it seems the only reasonable is to take that Dubuque
Street ramp and make like a section of it, two hour parking, or have one floor
parking, short term.
Vanderhoef/I think that's what a task force is going to come up with and so I'm sitting
here trying to weight whether we go ahead and put one or two gates in it so we
address the problems of the people using short term and long term (can't hear).
O'Donnell/We really don't have a lot of options.
Lehman/Are we going to appoint a committee? Because if we let the committee talk
about it.
Pfab/That's what I would propose, that's what I would propose and give them a certain
amount of time.
Lehman/All right then who do we want to, shall we?
Pfab/I think we're looking at some possibilities.
Lehman/Well I don't think there's any question that we're looking at part of the
committee, but how do we want the committee be apprised? Do we want Joe to
work out?
Pfab/Well do we want to suggest what the task force, the composition of the members on
the task force?
Fowler/Would it be a possibility that we could work with the library, prepare a report
that would be then be published and allow people to input at that point.
Pfab/Maybe a public hearing.
Lehman/Yea I think that may be the best idea.
O'Donnell/Good idea.
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Parker/You know we've got Library Board members, I've been very involved in
Chamber activities and I think I could speak to the needs of the downtown
commtmity and connect with people in the downtown community, find out what
their interests are.
Pfab/Is there? Like to see someone like Dee mentioned ........
(END OF 02-39, SIDE TWO)
Pfab/one or two from the public.
Craig/I don't think you want the public there.
Pfab/Well I think we do.
Craig/I don't want that quoted off of me, you know what I'm saying, I can tell you what
the public's telling me and it's not pretty.
Pfab/Well fine, but they may need some education too to understand that maybe things
aren't as bad as it appears. And also I'm thinking of another thing, you also have
a library channel, you have some absolutely great TV producers and I'm sure that
with some kind of a video tape or something that you could put on that.
Champion/Well let's come up with a solution first.
Craig/Yea, it's, it' s just an emotional question.
Lehman/All fight.
O'Donnell/I like Joe's idea.
Lehman/Joe your suggestion is what?
Fowler/That parking work with the library to develop a plan that we then present to you,
the DTA, the Chamber, to the media so that it's available to everybody and let
people have input back.
Lehman/All right is that okay with us?
Vanderhoef/How about the executive, about the paid executive for the Downtown
Association? Would that be the other person that could speak sort of for
businesses downtown?
Pfab/And I'd also suggest that you hold some kind of a public hearing where people can
come up and vent what they have on their mind.
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Lehman/Well let's get the report and go from there.
Vanderhoef/They'll do that when they, when it comes to us anyway.
Pfab/Before you get to the report.
Lehman/You know sometimes you need something to talk about at a public hearing and
one of the best ways is to have a suggestion and then you can have the public can
comment on it.
Pfab/That's fine.
Champion/And come up with something.
Pfab/And then vote on it.
O'Donnell/There's an idea.
Fowler/We're going to have equal representation from parking and library on the
committee so we don't over you know vote one way or the other so.
Kanner/Before you go, I think it's a good idea to have a task force, I think we should
work toward some short term parking, we did make a promise for that. But also
keep in mind one of the things that makes the library exciting to people is that
there is all that activity going around because there are people walking, that is an
attraction so people making that circuit like Dee's talking about is something that
is enticing and why our library has remained at high levels and so there are
certainly a vocal minority of people screaming for more parking but that's not
always the answer is more parking at any cost.
Craig/I don't think they're saying more parking at any cost, but I would dispute that it's a
minority who are complaining about the parking at the library. In our user survey
before we even closed the lot 64-1a sixty some percent said parking is a problem.
Lehman/You have that same percentage with any business downtown.
Craig/I'm sure.
Lehman/I mean that's an absolute complaint.
Champion/But it its a problem for people with a lot of young children and your just
going to the library.
Lehman/Irvin you got anything else before we turn Joe loose?.
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Pfab/I would support what or amplify a bit what Steven said, the fact that some of these
people walk around, you get cross pollination in there and I think that's ideas of
what's going on in and that's one of the reasons why it's attractive.
Lehman/All right, thank you Joe, thank you Lisa, thank you Susan.
Pfab/And we will look forward to your report with great anticipation.
Craig/And we'll find the answer won't we Joe?
Fowler/Yes.
Sand Prairie Preservation (I]72 of 5/2 info. packet)
Lehman/Terry would you like to talk about Sand Prairie Preservation before we take a
break?
Trueblood/No but I will anyway.
Lehman/Well if you don't we'll just take a break and move on.
Pfab/He wants to get out of here.
Trueblood/If you want to take a break I'll just stand up here and talk.
Lehman/We'll, actually knowing that we are anxious for the break, proceed,
expeditiously.
Trueblood/Okay, you received a brief memo from me about the Sand Prairie
Preservation, specifically the Concerns Citizens for Sand Prairie Preservation, and
essentially what they want to do as you know is try to acquire as much of that
Sand Prairie area as they can essentially across from Napoleon Park. And they
want to submit a REAP Grant application which has to come from the city, but
those applications are a lot of work to put together and essentially they didn't want
to go to all the work putting that REAP grant together if the City Council won't
support it. So I just came tonight to get an indication if you will be supporting it,
I'm not working on the REAP grant application if they do that, this group is. But I
would need to prepare a.
Lehman/Do you support it.
Champion/The Commission says they support it right?
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Trueblood/The Commission supports it yea, that's right, so if we get four nods of a head
not counting when your napping.
O'Donnell/It's so hard to tell.
Trueblood/I'll prepare a resolution.
Lehman/Well I mean is there anyone who does not support this?
Pfab/I would support it if our Parks and Recreation person wasn't such a smart alick but
otherwise I'll support it.
Vanderhoef/Can I just ask a couple of questions?
Lehman/As long as it doesn't have a box turtle in it.
Vanderhoef/Okay I'll not talk about the turtles.
Lehman/Thank you.
Vanderhoef/How big an area are we really talking about?
Trueblood/Well the total area is something like 70 or 80 acres.
Kanner/That they're looking at purchasing.
Trueblood/Well they'd like to acquire all of it if they can, I don't know if that's in the
cards or not but that's the approximate size of the total acreage.
Kanner/What's the estimated maintenance cost for that?
Trueblood/We haven't put together any estimated maintenance costs whatsoever, as a
matter of fact we had indicated that they understand that unless they have a
volunteer group that would do a lot of work on it that if we the city acquire it the
chances are it's going to have to be land banked for a period of years before it
would see any development. But in the long range it would not be a high
maintenance area, it would be more of a preservation area and probably the most
development that would occur would be nature trails.
VanderhoefJ And that brings me to the question on the nature trail, my picture and I may
be totally wrong on this but my picture is that if we put a trail through there that
we may do more damage than what we might want only a trail that would go
around the exterior parameter of it.
Champion/Let's get the land before we decide that.
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Vanderhoef/Well, I'm curious because I think if we're going to pursue it I think we need
to have some public education from day one either yes it is possible to have a trail
in there or no it isn't because of those things that we can't talk about. Right Emie.
Pfab/Those little animals with a shell on them.
Trueblood/The people that we have met with that are part of this group are in favor of
having public access to it but they also say we'd have to be very careful about
whatever kind of trail would go in there, it's not like you'd just go in there and put
down an asphalt or concrete trail.
Vanderhoef/Well that's a concern that I have, but yes I would support doing a REAP
grant.
Kanner/Terry you say your going to bring back a resolution to us in regard to the REAP
grant.
Trueblood/At your next meeting yea.
Pfab/Look forward to it.
Vanderhoef/They can start writing.
Trueblood/Yea.
Kanner/It might be a bit preliminary but could we get a memo from the group about an
answer, a preliminary answer or a rough answer of some degree about her
questions about trails.
Trueblood/I can ask for that, I'm sure that wouldn't be a problem.
Lehman/Okay, you've got a go, we've got to break.
Kanner/How long Emie?
O'Donnell/About 8:00.
Lehman/No.
BREAK
Lehman/Before we go to the Sidewalk Cafe hours Terry has one other thing that we
probably need to be aware of.
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Trueblood/I'm sorry I forgot to mention before that you will likely receive a letter similar
to the ones from the Prairie Group from the Friends of Hickory Hill because they
too want to submit a REAP grant to try to acquire part of that property in the
Hickory Heights subdivision and so my understanding was they were going to get
you a letter right away just seeing, there again seeing if the Council would be
supportive of that and willing to accept the land if they can acquire the funding to
do so.
Lehman/But did you not also tell me that we are also applying for a REAP grant for the
Water Plant, Water Works park?
Trueblood/We plan to do that as of this moment, we need to get some form of grant
money's to supplement what's in the budget in order to do the entire prairie
planting project out there.
Pfab/Is that something that could be postponed if these, these other two are extremely
time sensitive. Is the Water Works that sensitive too?
Trueblood/Not in terms of acquisition just in terms of will have, we will.
Dilkes/I'm sorry, we need to remember what we noticed Sand Prairie Preservation grant
support, that's what we (can't hear).
Pfab/Just what's on the agenda.
Lehman/All fight.
Atkins/She means be quiet.
Trueblood/Okay I've taken my orders from the Mayor and I apologize Ernie to the City
Manager or from Karin I don't know.
O'Donnell/I'd listen to Karin.
Trueblood/Should I now leave the podium?
Lehman/You may leave.
Trueblood/Thank you.
Sidewalk Cafes (IP3, 4, and 5 of 5/2 info. packet)
Lehman/Sidewalk cafe hours.
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Atkins/Ernie we didn't have a formal presentation plarmed for you, we have a memo
from both chiefs and from Marian, it seems to be an issue of whether your
interested in doing it or not, if you are we can accommodate it by the way of the
ordinance amendments if your not, and we have but the one request we would
inform the party that your not interested.
Champion/I'll speak to this for a few minutes.
Lehman/You go ahead for a minute.
Champion/Got the gong out. Well there has been a request but and I think there's some
good reasoning behind it is that and most of the restaurants downtown that have
sidewalk cafe's their kitchen closes at 10:00. And the way things are that means
they have to quit serving people down there at 9:00 because they can't pick up all
their food and bring it back it in. So I think the request is valid, they also feel like
with all the activities downtown and now the Shakespearean plays that people
might want to come and have a bite to eat outside before closing time now. So I
think they're request is valid, I think they feel any leniency on the time would be
helpful to them and also to make those the furniture and stuff they put in more
useable and to help pay for it. I read the police chief's memo and ! also read the
fire chief's memo, I don't, I mean the fire chief doesn't think things will be stored
properly, well you know I have kind of problems with that. First of all that
equipment is expensive, and I can't believe if they're open an hour later that their
not going to store the equipment the same way they do now. And the police chief
even says in his memo that it has not been a problem even though they anticipate
it being a problem especially since most of the, well at least the Atlas is a 21 bar
anyway, although they can't control that, I'm just throwing that out there. So my
suggestion is we try it on a temporary basis and then ask the police chief and fire
chief to evaluate whether the problems or increased or whether they've remained
status quo. There are places downtown who have their sidewalk cafe on private
property and of course they stay open as late as they want. I think also we rent
carts downtown, we rent city space to carts and they don't have any hours they
have to follow, we're leasing them space and they can use it 24 hours a day if they
want to so those, so I mean that's where I'm coming from on this. That the
problems have not been there and maybe they wouldn't be there if we extended
that time a little bit and if they are then maybe we have to reconsider it and so I
would suggest we do it on a temporary basis and then ask ora report back from
the police chief and fire chief on whether there's increased the problem.
Vanderhoef/Connie you mentioned one thing there that peeked my interest that when you
mentioned that they are a 21 and above bar that maybe we could consider it as a
temporary for any outdoor eating establishment that has a 2 I.
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Champion/Well their bar is 21, I mean I just threw that out there, the restaurant is not so I
think that's not a valid thing to do because the restaurant is not 21, but the bar area
is 21 and I think after 10:00 you have to be 21 to go in period. But the kitchen
closes at 10:00 so you could still have a minor there eating with their parents.
Pfab/I can't say that I'd be around that hours that they want so I'm not an expert on that.
But I can, I have difficulty finding where it would be a problem to, and my point
would be, the only question I wanted to ask you, you said for a part time (can't
hear), I'm presuming rightly or wrongly that you would mean for at least one
season.
Champion/Yea.
Pfab/I would have no trouble supporting that to do it that way.
Kanner/A couple things, one, you mentioned people might want to have a bite to eat, I
think that's.
Champion/Oh right.
Kanner/Outside it's a good thing ! think. One thing that's kind of interesting is there's
some place bars, restaurants that stop serving food, according to this ordinance it
said Sidewalk Cafe's shall not operate when the restaurant kitchen is closed. So
they're going to be forced to have the kitchen's open and I think that's a good
thing.
Champion/Well when I say it, I mean I'm not a restaurateur but I think the kitchen closes
at 10:00 but if your order is in before 10:00 obviously the kitchen stays open.
Kanner/Right but they're going to have to stay open until 12:30 and if they can't then
they're not going to be able to have the sidewalk cafe operated, according to our
current ordinance we could change that part of the ordinance too if we wanted but
I'm just saying that's a consequence.
Champion/Read that to me again Steven.
Kanner/It's in this memo from Marian about the current days and hours of operation.
Food and beverage must be available for service and patrons in a sidewalk cafe
during all hours of operation. Sidewalk cafes shall not operate when the
restaurant kitchen is closed.
Wilbum/So your right if we extended the hours according to this they would still have to
keep the kitchen closed and make food available.
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Kanner/And that's a good thing I think, that's a choice they'll have to make if they want
to keep the kitchen open in order to serve any kind of alcoholic beverages out
there or have the cafe in general out there they have to have the kitchen open and
people then can come and have a bite to eat and I think that's good for the city
along with something to drink. I think there are some problems that we could
acknowledge from what the police chief says but I think it's worth a shot to try
that. I did have a question though about this ordinance from Marian, on number
three I don't quite understand what that means, sidewalk cafes shall be set up,
operated and restored to their normal condition as a pedestrian way each day only
between the hours of 7:00 AM and 10:00 PM for establishments possessing
current alcohol beverage license and between 7:00 AM and 12:00 PM midnight
for sidewalk cafes not possessing alcoholic beverage license. What does it mean
to be set up as a pedestrian way?
Karr/Unless, it means Steven unless you have requested and been approved for anchored
fencing that all the temporary fencing and the tables and chairs must be all set
back and stored properly in accordance to the ordinance so it returns to a
walkway. Obviously if you have anchored fencing that would not be affected, that
would be a different situation but the original intention here was that things be
removed so that later in the evening they would not be displaced.
Kanner/But it says it has to be a pedestrian way between 7:00 AM and 10:00 PM and so
the hours when the cafe's allowed it's saying it can't be.
Karr/I'm saying between 7:00 in the morning and 10:00 at night if the establishment
serves alcohol they can be out there, if the establishment does not serve alcohol
then it's 7 till midnight.
Kanner/So pedestrian way means.
Karr/Return to it's normal state.
Champion/(Can't hear) Anchored fencing.
Lehman/All right.
Dilkes/It's not, the drafting isn't as good as the beginning sentence.
Lehman/The present ordinance allows sidewalk cafes to stay open until 12:00 if they do
not serve alcohol.
Kan'/That is correct.
Lehman/It appears to me and I'm probably going to be the vast minority this is, this
request is primarily a request for us to have an outside bar and with the problems
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that we have with alcohol in this community I don't think we need another one or
two or three places to consume alcohol and I have no problem with the 10:00
closing time.
Champion/We have a lot of problem with alcohol inside.
Lehman/That's fine but we're just making more, we're making more space available for
folks to come down and imbide and I'm not picking on this place because I think
it's a great place but I just think philosophically that it's not a good idea.
Pfab/Well I was under the impression that food would be served out there.
Champion/Right, food would be served.
Lehman/Do you think the amount of food served between 10:00 at night and midnight is
why we're going to stay open or do you think it's going to be so we can sell
alcohol? What would you just kind of guess?
Pfab/I'd guess that people are hungry about that time.
Lehman/I'd guess that they're more thirsty.
Champion/You know can I just say something?
Lehman/Sure.
Pfab/I was under the assumption they were hungry.
Champion/And this is not a personal assault on you.
Lehman/That's all right, (can't hear) that's all right.
Champion/I have a lot of problems when we let 19 year olds in the bars and get drunk
but you and I can't sit outside a cafe downtown and have a drink.
Lehman/I have a problem with that.
Champion/I mean I do have problems with that and when cities all over the world have
sidewalk cafe's that are open as long as the restaurant or the bar are open and they
don't have a problem maybe we're addressing the wrong problem. I mean I think
is ridiculous that we make laws, we make ordinance and create ordinances
because the possibility somebody might drink too much but not because of the
possibility that I might want to sit outside and have a glass of wine at 11:00.
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Lehman/It makes it legal though you couldn't if it wasn't in the cafe, if you were on the
sidewalk it would be an open container.
Champion/Well I like to sit outside in Chicago, New York and Pads and London and
have a glass of wine and this city has always been uptight about that and yet we
allow 19 year olds to go into bars and get totally sloshed, they wouldn't be doing
that outside, they're doing it inside that's for sure.
Kanner/One thing I would ask is that we not decide this tonight in an informal meeting
since this is quite controversial, I don't know that this particular thing is that
controversial but we should put it on the agenda for the formal meeting at our next
two week subsequent meeting, that's what I would request.
Lehman/I wouldn't disagree but if there are, if there's a majority of Council that would
like to proceed with this I think the best way to put it on the agenda is to put it on
the agenda in the form of an ordinance change then at that point it can be
discussed by both the Council and the public. Are there four folks that?
Pfab/Just a minute I, just a point of clarification. Okay so what your saying is there
enough interest that we may want to change it? That we may want to.
Lehman/I'm asking is there interest in changing to allow sidewalk cafes to serve alcohol
and stay open until midnight? I.
Pfab/To answer that question yes but then I'd also say tomorrow since it's not on the
agenda anybody could speak to it and.
Lehman/That's right.
Pfab/And so other words and then it would come up at another time. If that's agreeable
to the people that are interested that's great.
Lehman/All I'm saying is if there are, if the majority of the Council is interested in
allowing this, I mean Connie's right on a temporary basis, say so and we'll have
the ordinance amendments prepared and put it on as an agenda item.
Pfab/I'd support it.
Lehman/I see we have one, two, three, four, okay we've got it.
Karr/Okay could I ask what that direction is. Is it 7:00 AM to 12 midnight or would you
just like it operating when the kitchen is open and just the regular operation?
Champion/Should we wait until the public discussion on that?
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Karr/Well not if we want to prepare an ordinance.
Lehman/No.
Kanner/Well I'd say keep for the way it was.
Wilburn/It's kind of hard, it would be just the hours because it already.
Kart/So just 7:00 to 12:00 regardless of a liquor license.
Champion/Right.
Kanner/And this will be sunseted it in one year unless Council renews it I think that
should be part of the ordinance.
Champion/Oh that's a good point, that's a good way to do it.
Vanderhoef/I might look at it if we closed them up at 11:00, I guess what I would like to
see is if we try it out I would like to see all of those closed and put back into order
before the bars stop serving.
Champion/That's at 2:00 AM.
Lehman/That's at 2:00 in the morning.
Vanderhoef/But by the time they get out there and clean it up and get things out of the
walkway (can't hear).
Pfab/But how many are not spent?
Champion/Oh there are a few.
Pfab/Okay, all right, I think that's part of doing business, I don't think we ought to tell
them that they ought to disbar at 6:00 in the morning or 7:00.
Champion/They do it.
Pfab/Yes, and I think that's overly intrusive.
All talking
Karr/Why don't we do a sunset clause 7 to midnight and then we can present that and
you can see what the input is and vote on it at that time.
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Lehman/And the other part is the ordinance that requires that the kitchen will be open
stays.
Karr/Your only looking at number 3 by taking out the 7 to 10 and making any distinction
between alcohol.
Champion/I think that's a good compromise.
Comprehensive Plan Amendment (IP6 of 5/2)
Lehman/Comprehensive Plan Amendment Karin.
Karin Franklin/You have a memo in your packet that, what I tried to do was kind of
frame where I think you are. This.
Champion/It was pretty good.
Franklin/This came out as you recall of the whole discussion about the student housing
project on Gilbert Street. And what I would like to do tonight is just go around to
each one of you and have you express what the issue is for you because the
problem that I'm having in terms of how we approach this is to know exactly what
it is that you perceive the issues to be or the problems to be that are going to be
resolved by doing a comprehensive plan amendment. Okay are you all agreeable
to that?
Pfab/The problems that will be solved will be changed?
Franklin/Well is it that you wish to consider a change now to the comprehensive plan
and your answer can be I don't wish to.
Pfab/Okay.
Franklin/But for those of you who want to pursue a change, what I'm trying to do is to
get consensus on what that change is, okay. Are you prepared to start Ross?
Wilburn/I don't wish to.
Lehman/Don't wish to start or you don't wish to change the plan.
Wilburn/I don't wish to change the plan.
Pfab/I do not huh.
O'Donnell/Well I think we need to have an answer to the question, how big is big?
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Franklin/ Okay, could you narrow that to how big what is?
Atkins/Karin could you tip the microphone over towards yourself.
O'Donnell/We determine the project is too big based on the number of bedrooms, rather
than doors I think.
Champion/Good point.
Lehman/Actually on both points I think.
Franklin/So how big is too big for multi-family projects?
O'Donnell/Exactly.
Champion/And I like the other question brought up Mike how many bedrooms per door.
Kanner/Per front door.
Franklin/Okay, you can bring that up when it gets to you, I'm being very structured here,
I'm going to be strict.
O'Donnell/So I'm through.
(All talking)
Franklin/If you have another issue to raise.
O'Donnell/Not if you put it that way.
Franklin/Okay Dee.
Vanderhoef/Okay I agree with Mike, that's a definitely big one, and the one that I've
mentioned before and it has to do with where is the appropriate given that the
design standards that we have for multi family along arterials.
Franklin/Are there two P's in appropriate?
Lehman/Yes there is now.
Champion/I can't (can't hear).
Wilburn/No spell check up there is there?
Franklin/It always looks different.
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Vanderhoef/Well there's more to it, the second piece of that then is our design standards
for construction along arterials and how they impact having single dwellings
along the arterials versus multi-family. We have standards right now that says the
construction must face the street.
Franklin/I know what your talking about, I'm just trying to think of how to condense it.
Vanderhoef/ How to put it.
Franklin/The reason that I'm putting it this way Dee is because that part of the comp.
plan, it's in talking how we design neighborhoods and that's orientation of
buildings, and pedestrian friendly and where multi-family goes, that's what it's
under is design for neighborhoods, and that will bring in the arterial streets and all
that, it's a section in the 1997 comp. plan that speaks to how you design
neighborhoods. And that's what I'm seeing is your focusing on that and the
implications it has for multi-family.
Vanderhoef/For driveways, for sight distance, from comers, from orientation of the
houses.
Franklin/Does everyone else know what Dee's talking about with that one? Vanna.
Lehman/I think they ought to trade places.
Pfab/The topic ones are over.
(All talking)
Vanderhoef/No one more.
Pfab/Let's see if everyone's awake.
Franklin/But you only get one, no go ahead.
Vanderhoef/We talk in the comp. plan about integrating multi-family into our
neighborhood and talk about small but I have a question of how we can put in, it
seems like also like spot zoning because if we want these scattered throughout the
neighborhood then we may have a RS-5 but if we're going to scatter then how do
we scatter this on the interior of the neighborhood away from the arterials that
allows us to mix these in and how big can those be and still meet the standard of
an RS-5.
Franklin/I think we get that with the appropriate location of multi-family, where is it
appropriate located, appropriately located, but that's one of the big questions
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whether it's in on arterial streets, whether it's within the neighborhoods, whether
it's segregated into certain sections of the community or certain areas of the
neighborhood and also is incorporated into the design of neighborhoods. You
may change totally the perspective that we have taken on designing
neighborhoods in that you change it such that it no longer is about integrating uses
but is about separating them. And so I think what your saying is more detailed of
these two questions and then the big question.
Vanderhoef/The zoning piece that gets down to the nitty gritty.
Franklin/But the comp. plan we have the larger ideas of how we do things and then the
zoning is the specifics, and that's what your bedroom versus door is about also.
Vanderhoef/And right now we don't speak to it we keep saying throughout the comp.
plan that we want it integrated within but I am not seeing that happening because
in my yard or zoned for all single family and we don't want it here.
Franklin/Okay so your issue is how we design the neighborhoods and then how we
actually carry it out?
O'Donnell/And that's a very good point too and that should be designed, that needs to be
addressed because we want these scattered through neighborhoods supposedly.
I'm sorry were you finished?
Vanderhoef/That's all right go ahead.
Pfab/You have your turn Mike.
Franklin/I was about to jump on him, thank you.
O'Donnell/And we want them scattered neighborhoods yet I don't know one person who
lives in a residential area that would like an 18 plex built next door to them so I
think we have to readdress that.
Franklin/Yea okay and I think we've got that in here in terms of appropriate location.
Ernie.
Lehman/Two issues, one of them probably is not a comprehensive plan but I really we
have got to address density in terms of bedrooms and not front doors. And I think
maximum density needs to be addressed also in terms of bedrooms, in multi-
family zone. And I think we can define how big is big. Obviously now we allow
RM-20 you can build 20 single units or you can build 25 bedroom units, one has a
100 bedrooms, one has 20 and yet their both except for parking requirements
they're (can't hear) exactly the same are they not?
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Franklin/It depends on the number of bedrooms in the unit, that's how the parking
requirements are determined. But for a four or five bedroom apartment they're
the same, it's 3 spaces per.
Lehman/Right, so I really think we've got to look at bedrooms period. And I think we
can look at bedrooms, I've seen some very attractive developments that are 10 and
12 12-plexes which I do not think are necessarily undesirable and if they're in the
appropriate location, you know 12 12-plexes with 3 bedrooms a piece at 396
bedrooms. Maybe we have a unit that says there will not be more than a certain
number of bedrooms but that's done on a basis of one per front door or five per
front door but I think we need to do that.
Champion/I'll (can't hear).
Lehman/I believe, no we're not talking single family, we're talking multi-family.
Franklin/But the larger question there is how your going to mix densities, densities from
single family to multi family, how and if you are because what I'm hearing some
of you say is that the principle in the comprehensive plan of mixing it is not a
concept that you embrace, or you at least are questioning it at this point.
Vanderhoeff Implementation.
Lehman/I don't think that I question that at all, I think it's a wonderful concept, but I
believe there are locations and perhaps they are defined by streets, the intersection
of two arterial streets, whatever. I mean I believe there are maybe locations where
a more dense development is appropriate because first of all your not going to get
single family to build there anyway and it might be a more efficient use of the
ground.
Franklin/So that comes back to the how big and the (can't hear).
Lehman/Yea I mean absolutely, I'm not, there are probably very few areas where you
would allow 400 bedrooms but there may be areas and right now we can't do that.
Franklin/Yes you can downtown.
Lehman/I'm sorry we can't do it except downtown.
Vanderhoef/And I want to revisit that density in downtown.
Champion/Is it my turn?
Lehman/Yes your turn.
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Champion/All right when I think of mixing I mean I disagree with Mike, I don't think
when I talk about mixing I talk about two single family houses and a 12 plex. I
talk about mixing by distribution or where you put multi-family, like around
neighborhoods or on arterials and so they're mixed in the town and so we don't
have huge blocks of apartments. Do you know what I'm saying? Am I making
myself clear?
O'Donnell/1 don't think I agree with you.
Champion/Okay well anyway that's how I feel, I want it mixed in the town. See the
other think is I do think that we lack something in this town and this is my
personal opinion. I think we lack really nice apartment complexes with
swimming pools and work out rooms and those niceties because they take a
certain amount of density to build a really nice apartment building to keep the rent
at some kind of level that people can afford. And as people are buying houses
later and later in life because of the huge expense of houses that have gotten into
that we have a lot of younger people and older people and probably people even
my age. What am I a mold?
Lehman/No.
Champion/That there isn't really a nice apartment complexes with all those nice things
that you see like Chicago or the suburbs or maybe even Cedar Rapids or maybe
Des Moines.
O'Donnell/(can't hear) communities.
Champion/Gated communities right, but places where you can rent an apartment and
have.
Franklin/Is that what we're after here is "gated communities"?
O'Donnell/No.
Champion/No.
Vanderhoef/It might be.
Champion/I mean that's one reason I'm interested in looking at how big is big, how big
does something have to be to provide those niceties that we don't have in
apartment complexes here, in the newer ones because it simply is very expensive.
Lehman/That's a good point.
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Champion/Other than that, I mean I have a lot of kids living in apartments and we don't
have the kind of apartments they're living in and yet they're paying equivalent
rent to what they would probably pay in Iowa City, they don't exist here for some
reason, I want to know why they don't. Maybe the demand isn't there but I just
why they don't.
Franklin/ Okay. Steven. Are you done Colmie?
Champion/Yea I think so.
Kanner/I had a few things.
Franklin/Okay. I guess I'm going to need another sheet of paper.
Kanner/I don't know if this has been addressed exactly but I've talked about before about
need to increase density on the edges on certain places so that we don't keep
having RS-5's out to the edge. That we plan that eventually we're going to have
some higher densities higher out and try to make those somewhat of a community
however we do that with commercial and other and education.
Franklin/When you say increase densities is there any, what does that mean to you in
terms of high density or generally speaking?
Kauner/Well that we look, it seems RS-12 is RM-12 seems to be where we're allowed to
have a little more than single family for the most part and so I think we need to
look at the possibility of some RM-12's further out and how that would integrate
into issues of concern for sprawl, see if that can be done.
Franklin/Okay, okay.
Champion/Steve would that be part of our neighborhood design when we designed along
arterials? Is that what you have in mind or just?
Kanner/Well it could be.
Franklin/It could be.
Kanner/But in general it seems we keep putting RS-5's further out, single family homes
and I don't think that's necessarily the answer and I'd like to see more discussion
on that. In the comprehensive plan I think we need to identify student, staff, and
administration at the University as partners, as possible partners.
Franklin/Explain that, what you mean by that, partners in crime.
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Kanner/Parmers in housing and setting up community and we don't specifically mention,
I might have overlooked this but we were told we don't mention students in the
comprehensive plan.
Franklin/We don't pull them out as a special population that needs special housing.
Kanner/So I think we can talk about it in a positive way though to highlight this, this is a
community that's dominated in many ways by the University and we should look
at that as a positive thing and we should talk about that in the comprehensive plan.
And that could mean for instance making a non profit development corporation
with the University like some other cities have done, Columbus Ohio, Ohio State
has done that. So it would be that we would have to look at them every time as a
partner but that would be a goal like we have other goals in the comprehensive
plan.
Franklin/Got it okay.
Kanner/I think we need to look at kicking up the fees for development, especially on the
edge.
Franklin/That probably is not a comprehensive plan issue, it's more of a implementation,
I'm trying to translate that to how you would put it. Usually the plan is policies,
it's principles, give me if you can what the principle would be that that would
carry out.
Kanner/The principle that we want to get all externalized costs or a larger portion of
externalized costs of development. We capture that by "add-on" fees per
infrastructure.
Franklin/But just on the edge are you talking about?
Kanner/Well especially on the edge but it could be for everywhere, but there are other
fees, we did this study 10 years ago, it's questionable whether or not annexation,
we did on the far east side would produce extra tax revenue's for us. And I and
other people can make the argument that farm land is the one that saves the most
sitting from an avoided cost. So when we do development, I would argue it's a
negative consequence (can't hear) so in our comprehensive plan we should try to
capture all these external costs as much as possible.
Vanderhoef/So your looking for a standard?
Kanner/Well our goal would be to capture as much of the external cost as possible that
for our community you know we're not counting fire and police and maybe we
even talk about school and we're going to talk about all these snow plowing and
garbage pick up, usually it's a "net loss" for the city, the tax revenues we bring in
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from this new development. Often times don't cover that and I think as a general
guide in principle I think we should look into covering more of that that would
eventually translate into policy implementation perhaps.
Vanderhoeff So it would be setting standards to see where the break even cost.
Franklin/Yea, yea. Anything else Steven?
Kanner/Yea, so the concurrent of having the livable communities downtown that we're
preserving less dense historic perhaps or general I think we need to allow some
small, small businesses in the neighborhoods, perhaps restaurants or some other
small businesses. I think that's part of the package.
Lehman/Are you talking about neighborhood commercial?
Franklin/No.
Kanner/Well neighborhood commemial but even, right now like on Summit Street
there's a grandparent that "Art Gallery" that's in there, and it's only in there
because it's grandparent. I think that kind of thing in general should be allowed,
with certain limits on it, we'd have to figure out what the limits are but I think
that's a way that's going to help us maintain densities around.
Champion/(can't hear).
Franklin/You get one more because I'm running out of paper, no I'm just kidding.
Pfab/My space.
Franklin/Yea your taking Irvin's space here.
Kanner/Larger developments, if we do, whatever we define larger we should look at
whether or not they should shear their services for instance their recreational
services with the city. Some cities have done this where there's a development
that builds a work out space or rec. area like proposed for this new apartment and
we could say that either for a small fee from the community, or no fee that they
should share this with the city residents around them.
Champion/That would be difficult.
Pfab/Be a good neighbor.
Kanner/It could be difficult but it's done in other places and it's a way to, and we're
talking about are we going to build things out where there's no services, this is
one way that maybe we can reach a compromise that they can build these bigger
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ones out there but they have to share some of the services like recreation or
transit. Instead of providing their own transit maybe they have to provide enough
money for us to put a regular bus route out there. And that somehow the greater
city benefits from that.
Franklin/Okay I put that over there just as a reminder to me the public access to
amenities that those are going to be available, I'm not exactly sum how to express
it right now.
Kanner/And greater clustering to preserve open spaces and.
Franklin/That's in there now.
Kanner/Maybe we, is it similar to what we have with the fringe ama agreement in that 50
percent?
Franklin/That would be an implementation measure. I mean one of the things that's
always to distinguish that the general principles that you have in the plan and
those things that you then live out those general principles with certain
ordinances. You can adopt an ordinance that says in certain areas you are going
to get that clustering by requiring X amount of open space, a pementage, but that
would be an implementation measure, you see what I'm saying.
Kanner/Okay so we have some clustering in there.
Franklin/Oh yea, yea.
Kanner/I would move we need to perhaps be more direct and increasing the open space.
Franklin/Then that's in the implementation you know, we do the development code
review, which we're not going to talk about tonight that we need to include
something in there that says X pementage will be preserved.
Kanner/Like we do with the fringe area agreement.
Franklin/Right, that would be the way you would do it.
Kanner/And we need to look at, we have the graverman farm, are people familiar with
the Braverman farm behind HyVee. I think that's a model of.
(END OF 02-43 SIDE ONE)
Kanner/Helping small businesses (can't hear) acre farm land spaces and it's a way to do
economic development, preserve rural area that Iowa's known for to a certain
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extent so I think we need to put that in the comprehensive plan that we want to
preserve some of that. I think we have room for more of that.
Franklin/Preserve.
Kanner/Preserve some small rural farm area, and that's going to be come into play
especially in the southwest area where there's still quite a bit of farm area that
we're that's in our growth area. And you might put in parentheses an example the
Braverman Farm, ora couple acres of a small business. Two more things,
increase the percentage of housing that has to be accessible.
Franklin/I was thinking of that.
Kanner/For people with disabilities. And then finally expand the sensitive areas, include
things like views, scenic views perhaps, and I don't know, we have some wording
about prairie, but other things like that I think we need to look at that. That's it
thank you.
Franklin/Okay, lrvin. No change.
Pfab/My gut say (can't hear).
O'Donnell/Okay let's go on.
Champion/Don't be offended Irvin.
Pfab/But I'm just, I think we're looking at some brainstorming and I'm going to bring up
two examples. I believe that people who are students, they have somewhat
different needs as the normal population, although the neighborhoods certainly
didn't look at it that way and they wanted to integrate them into the neighborhood.
I, my, I can't get it out of my head that student housing was going to go down
there, I would have suggested that they put another Mayflower down there but that
was never going to go over and it probably won't go over now because of
specialized for students, we need places for students to live and do what students
do so.
Franklin/Study.
Pfab/Or just like, I kept saying you utilize the space, you can put in a lot more services
because you can spread the cost of them over and if that's the case you do
something like that, the neighborhood, they have some recreation again bring in a
lot of neighbors to do it. It's just like my problem was when we didn't put a
basement, we're not designing our new transportation center without a basement,
that space is too valuable I believe over a period of time and so, that's.
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Franklin/Okay, anything else. Okay. We're done with this for tonight.
O'Donnell/Yes we are.
Franklin/What I'm going to do is take these and look at the comprehensive plan as it is
now and see where the sections would be you know where the sections would be
that we would, what we would look at to address some of these things. Try to
condense it somewhat, and then what you'll need to do is to reach either
consensus or a majority of the issues that you want to address and then we'll talk
about the process of how you wish to do this and we'll do that next work session.
Champion/Great, thanks.
O'Donnell/Thank you.
Lehman/Thank you Karin.
Kanner/Karin for that top one for me could you say for single family or multi unit, I
know that Doug said he looked a little bit into that issue of single family
development.
Franklin/Okay.
Lehman/Okay.
Pablic Power Initiative (I]77 of 5/2 info. packet, IP8 of 5/2 info. packet)
Dale Helling/We sent you a memo just basically outlining the things that you have to do,
or the decisions that you would have to make in order to proceed. I would just
add a couple things that aren't included in there that came up, one was the notice
of a joint feasibility study with other communities and working through the state
agency on that and I would assume you would want us to pursue that if we move
ahead. The other thing would be that the scope of any preliminary study, we
would also want to include at least looking at that options that were raised early
on about I think it's called Muni- Lights or something, but it's that small mility
that you might form just to serve if you didn't want to do on a grander scale just to
serve certain needs within probably the city organization or maybe even larger, I
don't know how they're set up but that's something that a feasibility study would
also look at. And as the things are outlined clearly unless your willing to commit
some funds up front to this probably none of these other decisions are to be made
because the prerequisite to the whole thing is whether or not your willing to
dedicate funds for some type of feasibility study whether it be joint or on our own.
Champion/I, do you want us just to speak?
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Helling/Sure.
Champion/Well I like the idea of doing some kind of joint study since obviously we have
a great budget problem, not great budget problem but we have a limited general
fund this year. I like the idea of working, who was the, I can't remember the guys
name from the (can't hear) Robert Haug.
Lehman/Haug.
Kanner/The association (can't hear).
Champion/I mean I think they have a tremendous amount of information that's already
been done that would save us, would be very cost efficient. He did indicate that
there are other communities in Iowa that would be willing to join a group to do
this study. Now I know people are going to think well their study is going to be
biased, well there's certain information that can be gleamed from what they come
up with that we would not have to redefine, would not reinvent the horse to come
up with the same information and I think we should take advantage of this group
and the study's that they've done. And get together with other groups, what other
cities they have in mind I'm not sure w hat they are, I think it's a good place to
start, I'm open to other suggestions too but that seems to be the most cost efficient
way to start this initiative, this study.
Pfab/Connie are you saying that you think these people might have enough information
to help us develop in order to?
Champion/Yea.
Pfab/Okay, I've got to.
Vanderhoef/To develop an RFP but not to do the study.
Champion/Well I think you would get together with these other communities and develop
an RFP and then the group of you would decide how your going to proceed from
there.
Lehman/Well you put an RFP out and obviously anyone would be welcome to submit a
proposal and we would select whoever from whoever selected a proposal.
Helling/Well I think in essence both statements are correct, number one they could help
us develop an RFP but beyond that talking about a joint study that would be sort
of coalition of cities getting together and doing one study through one consultant I
would assume. Some of that information is relevant to all the cities but still
there's other information because everybody's situation is different, it would have
to be leaned specifically toward the Iowa City situation.
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Champion/Right.
Helling/And again we haven't gotten into that to see how that would all be spelled out in
some sort of a joint study, but there are there's two elements, the common
elements and then the ones that are relative just to the individual commtmities and
both of those would be part of that as I understand it.
Vanderhoef/Yea there would be a specific RFP for Iowa City special needs and questions
versus we would have the original one that would be a joint one.
Kanner/Well I think that's the question to decide perhaps from our point of view, you
could do it all as one and again divide it into sections. There might be some
economy of scale by hiring one person to do everybody's RFP so the 50 percent
that's in common like future gas and coal prices would be applicable for everyone.
What the future looks like in 20 years down the road, the part about what is Mid
American equipment worth in Iowa City of course would have to be separate but
it could all be one RFP, that's, it could be two RFP's, I don't think it's worth
doing that but that's what we have to decide if we want.
Champion/But isn't that what this joint group would decide when they got to that point?
Kanner/I think so, I think we'd go down that road and then we'd decide if we want like
you said pick one of those or we could pick none of them that's the option we
have without spending too much money or stamp time.
Pfab/Before we decide how much or if we're going to spend any money I think the idea
to spend as little money to get as good an RFP as we can and I believe is that an
organization to do that right? So we'd end up with an RFP but almost (can't
hear).
Champion/Well the organization would aid a group in getting this done.
Pfab/With very list to an RFP.
Helling/The cost is not substantial to develop an RFP, the cost would be to do the study.
Champion/Oh you would share the cost with the other cities that do the cities, I mean I
think we have to find some good way to do a good study, it's got to be adequate
we can't just throw $20,000 in there and decide, and make that decision from
there. But we don't have $100,000 to put into a study right now.
Pfab/But until we get an RFP out there to find out what the costs are, so my point would
be is to get an RFP out, develop an RFP as quickly and easily and then go out and
find out what it costs us.
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Lehman/Which is, I'm totally which I think totally everybody else is but is, is
advantageous to try and work with other communities who are looking first or is it
better for us first to get an RFP for Iowa City and it appears that there is a
possibility that this is something that will work with us and then work with other
communities and put together something that might in fact benefit several
communities. Which comes first?
Helling/The concept that was proposed was that there might be some savings as Steven
says in the economy of scale by going joint with other communities in developing
the RFP and doing a certain going up to a certain point or getting certain
information jointly as far as the preliminary study. But there would also have to
be information that would have to be gathered that would be directed toward and
relevant to the individual communities alone, now it wasn't my impression
although we haven't gotten into this and talked about how that would be done, but
it wasn't my impression that each community would then go out and do a separate
request for proposal to get somebody to come in and do that other part that
probably one consultant would do it all but the information, part of the
information would be for all the cities and that's where your savings might be. It
wasn't my impression that we would, we would save a huge amount of money in
other words we wouldn't cut our cost by 50 or 80 percent or something by doing a
joint study but there might be some savings there.
Lehman/What's involved in finding out who might be interested in doing it with us?
Helling/I think probably to develop an RFP and then put it out there and find out who's,
we would also work with the state, I mean they've offered the resources and we
would try to find out who's in the business of doing those things and so we make
sure we get the RFP in the hands of people who might respond to it.
Lehman/So what your telling us is that we need to come up with, first of all decide
whether or not we're going to do the RFP, put together some sort of an RFP,
present that to other cities in the state for their parusal and hope, is that, tell me
the process.
Helling/As I understand it the state is willing to take the lead now.
Champion/Right.
Helling/And they will go through the process of helping us to develop an RFP either by
ourselves or jointly with other communities if that's what we want to do.
Lehman/How do we go about starting the process?
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Helling/I think we just contact them and say you're interested and that the city is willing
to look at this and obviously you have to, and obviously you have to be, there's no
point in doing an RFP if your not willing to put some money up to do the study.
Atkins/Emie can I interrupt real quick?
Helling/Yea.
Atkins/You used the term "state" Dale.
Helling/Well the yea, Iowa Association.
Champion/Well Iowa's.
Atkins/Thank you.
Helling/IAMU, is what it is, that's Bob Haug and the state organization.
Vanderhoeff I want to know the preliminary kinds of things whether if we did that
amount with some other folk whether we should bring that amount of information
back before we go into the second stage of it, so I think we're talking still about
two RFP's and even if we do it jointly there may be some people who will drop
out after the original one of the basic, and I think that's the way I would like to
look at it in the first blush and let them tell me that I'm wrong if I'm wrong.
Helling/No and I think we would need to do that I think there are several decision points
along the way, all I'm saying is that unless your willing to suspend the money for
a study there's no point in getting started with this.
Vanderhoef/Well that splits the cost down what I'm thinking is that there would be stage
one and that would be a more minimum cost and then the second one would be
the next phase and RFP and the rest of the study.
Helling/Well I think your talking about he second phase is actually doing the study and
that's where the primary cost would be.
Lehman/Now will the Municipal Utility folks be able to tell us what we need to spend for
an RFP?
Helling/I think if we contact them and get involved with it at some point yea, yea I think.
Vanderhoef/Well it may depend how many people decide to join in and they're the
people who know who might join in and contact all of those so it could be a
floating number until we find out how many are going to be there.
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O'Donnell/You know I initially felt very bad about this because I felt like I knew very
little about it but the more I talk to people I didn't feel bad at all because nobody
knows anything about it.
Lehman/That's right.
O'Donnell/We have to, there's so many things, so many unanswered questions, delivery.
Can we purchase it on the grid of substantial savings? OSHA's involvement in
it. How do you pay lineman? How do you repair's? Storms, and I think the only
way clearly that we're going to get any information on this since we all have
agreed we know nothing on it is to move ahead.
Lehman/Do we do it?
O'Donnell/But I want to, but Ernie we are not as flush in this community as people think
we are and I think we need to set a limit on it but again the only way we're going
to ever know how much it's going to cost is to put it out.
Lehman/But would it be sensible to go to this Iowa Municipal folks? Contact them and
get an idea from them as to what the cost would be.
Kanner/Well Ernie I think as Mike said and other's before we ask them what the cost is.
Champion/We've got to know what we want.
Kanner/We've got to know what we want, the questions that Mike was putting out there,
that's what goes into an RFP and when people submit response to it like we had
for 64-1A hopefully we'll get a few people that say with all these requests you
have and these questions be answered we can do this study.
Wilburn/For X amount of dollars.
Kanner/For X amount of dollars, maybe it's $50,000, maybe it's $75,000 and we'll have
hopefully an option of four different places and we'll be working with these other
communities if we go that route and we can say yes we want to do that or no we
don't want to do, we can drop out at that point.
Champion/But at least see what happens, all o£us are going to some things in common,
we don't own our line, we don't own a power plant, we don't have these basic
things that municipal utilities that have been there for 50 years have and so you've
got to start somewhere and I guess we need to start with what we, what do we
need to know and that's what this group would do. I mean they would, I guess
you would be our representative.
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Helling/Well I assume, yea there's, staff, yea, we've got a group now that sort of started
to look into this.
Champion/Yea and.
Robert Grimm/I have, pardon for the interruption but is this suppose to be open for a
public debate?
Lehman/At some point but not tonight.
Robert Grimm/Not tonight.
Lehman/No. Go ahead.
Helling/That's.
Lehman/What is the direction? How do we want to start? See first of all I really don't
think that we know enough about it to even ask good questions. But I think that
Mr. Haug or Mr. Latham or as far as that goes Mid American Energy probably
have the kinds of questions that we need the answer. How do we go about getting
the questions? Finding out what questions need to be on an RFP? I mean what's
the procedure that we should be going through?
Helling/ Well if you want to do it jointly or separately for that matter I think that the
IAMU has offered to help, otherwise we would go out and we would find other
RFP's that have been done, pull those in together what we can. We may look for
to a consultant to help us a little bit in developing that, but get out there with a
request for proposal that helps to determine what the scope of what the study
would be and then get out there and find out who can do it and what cost.
Wilburn/You know personally I'd like to just go ahead and give staff the direction, I
mean I would like to have a study done, I would like to go ahead and commit at
this point $50,000 for a study, up to $50,000 for the study, give staff the direction,
use whatever resources where there's consulting with whoever to put together the
request for proposals. You know and then, you know they'll bring their RFP back
for us to take a look at, that will be open to the public to comment whether some
other things should be considered. We then move onto you know, the Request for
Proposals will come in, we'll select one of them, at some point along that way I
don't think necessary a committee needs to be formed to put the RFP together,
I'm willing to let staff go ahead and consult with those groups to do that but at
some point reviewing that study I would like to see some type of local public
group put together because eventually we're going to get to a point where we've
got the results of the study, staff is going to give us their take on it, it would be
nice at that point to have a group of citizens to take a look at it and to give us their
recommendation. Well in terms of we'll be faced with the question about no, it's
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May 6, 2002 Special Work Session Page 53
not likely that this is, there's going to be any benefit for us or feasible for us to do
it, that's why you call it a feasibility study.
Champion/When do we find that out? That's my next question Ross do you know?
Wilburn/When do we find out?
Champion/When do we find out if it's even possible (can't hear)?
Wilburn/That's from the, you'll get the study, just like, I mean everybody's always
coming forth and giving us studies, that's the point where staff's going to look at
the results of that study, a conclusion will be drawn from the person who drawn
from the person who did the study. And (can't hear) say no it's not feasible, it's
possible, or it's real probable that this is going to happen and I would like at that
point that citizen group say it looks like it's probable that there would be, it would
be worth it to go further, it's probable that it could happen.
Champion/Because that is the most important question.
Wilburn/Yea and ultimately it's going to need to be put to a vote for the public.
Helling/Right.
Wilburn/If we get to that point.
Helling/If we get to that point sure.
Wilburn/And so if it does look like it's probable that this could happen it would be nice
to have had some citizens working along the analysis of the report that we're
given because they can go out and help champion the public to try and, just the
library to try and convince the public that this is a benefit to the community so like
I said I'd like to go ahead and say yea let's do it, consult with whatever groups to
put it together and bring back an RFP for us to give the blessing to go forward and
see what they come in.
Helling/Ross is right, your not going to know, your not going to be at a point where you
can really have any idea if it would pay offor not or if it would be advantageous
to do that.
Champion/That's the question I want answered.
Helling/Until you do a feasibility study and your going to.
Vanderhoef/Patience, patience.
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Helling/We're estimating the $50,000 that's what Bob Latham gave to me and obviously
that depends on a lot of variables.
Wilburn/Yea and some people have said, and after seeing some input, well I don't agree
that, I've heard some people say the city's flush with money, well I don't think
we're flush with money but I've heard some people saying that's a waste of
money, well I think we've all agreed that there's, you can wisely spend, invest
some money to find out a quality answer to be answered and settled for the public,
you know once and all.
Champion/I agree, yea I agree.
Vanderhoef/Yea we're in that position we're damned if we do and damned if we don't
because we don't have any answers and we're not getting any smarter on it
without outside help.
Wilbum/And I think many people if they take a look and get a chance to wrestle with the
results of the study you know so you know it really isn't possible for Iowa City at
this point or it is possible, it is probable it could happen and we could move
forward.
Pfab/Dee, I think I would look at it from a little bit different kind of view but the same
idea, I think we win/win. If we do the feasibility study and we find out it's not
feasible, that was a cheap experience, if we decide at that point we want to go
ahead and we've got the (can't hear) down, I think it's a win/win.
Kanner/Dale I wonder if you could outline back to us what you've heard from us in the
direction that your hearing, how you would proceed in the next few weeks.
Helling/Well I think what I'm hearing is to contact the Bob Haug and explore this whole
idea of a joint feasibility and get some more information, details and how would it
take place, work with them in the process and I would assume you want us to
come back to you at some point in time when we have some additional
information about the estimated cost of the feasibility study, although as I said
we're not really going to know until the responses to the RFP are back and folks
who can do the study are saying this is what it's going to cost.
Lehman/Can I suggest that you also, you did apparently talk to Bob Latham who gave
you a number, I would also suggest that you ask him to for input into the sorts of
things that should be in an RFP, I mean that's, both of those folks are very
familiar with this sort of thing.
Helling/Yea, it certainly appears if we, that would be developed jointly, that's part of the
joint process.
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Kanner/Two things that I would add and see if the Council would agree to this, one that
you bring the proposed RFP back to us I think that Ross was mentioning that for
public input and Council input just like 64-1A was brought to us the RFP for that.
And then the second thing is that you'd be authorized to spend up to $50,000.
Champion/What does RFP stand for?
Wilbum/Request for proposal.
Helling/Request for proposal.
Wilburn/You know and then we're, we've already passed the budget and once a study is
done and your set with okay what do we do now, do we go further? If it's
probable that it could happen again after heating from staff and some version of a
citizen's group then you can make a budgetary decision at budget time, let's
move, let's move forward if again it looks probable it could happen.
Helling/Yea I'm not sure we need any authority from you to spend anything beyond just
this small amount of money, relatively speaking anyway this small amount it
would take to work with the other group and put together the RFP, it's the cost of
the RFP that your going to and I think it would probably, rather than say spend up
to $50,000 make that decision now I think you want to look at it and see because
that's a very rough estimate at this point.
Lehman/Well then what? Am I heating the proper thing for us to do is have you contact
Bob Haug and Latham and get together some information for us to give us a little
idea and keep us up to speed and at some point hopefully in not too distant future
we'll have an idea of what it would cost for an RFP to authorize (can't hear).
Wilburn/No, no, no, no, no, no, put together the RFP.
Atkins/That's what you want.
(All talking)
Wilbum/We may have a little bit better idea of what bids, the bids will come back and
then we'll.
Lehman/Well except that I think that we correct we probably want to see the RFP before
we want to put it out.
Helling/Yea, and we may have a little bit better idea of what a study is going to cost,
right now you've got $20,000 to $30,000 on the low end and $50,000 to $70,000
on the high end, that's a lot of range in between them, we may be able to nail that
down a little bit too, I don't know.
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Vanderhoef/Well especially if we have partners in the action so if they're estimating
$60,000 but there's five or six communities then we don't pay the whole piece of
it.
O'Donnell/Yea but Dee if you have five or six communities the cost is going to go up
substantially.
Lehman/Well some of the things will be common, there will be a commonality.
O'Donnell/(can't hear) Ernie but the similarities end as the (can't hear).
Helling/I'm thinking the savings would be some economy of scale there may be some
savings but I don't think it's going to be substantial.
Champion/Well there may also be ideas that come out of the group.
Helling/That's the, yea that's what it's really all about.
Champion/The main thing that we're deciding tonight is.
Lehman/Dale to move forward with it, or staff to move forward.
Champion/To move forward and because we're definitely going to do some kind of
feasibility, that's where we're at, right, perfect.
Lehman/We all agree.
Pfab/Yea.
Kanner/Yea.
Champion/Good job.
Helling/We'll do it.
Et Cetera License (I]79, IP10, IP11, 1]712 of 5/2 info. packet)
Lehman/Eleanor would you like to discuss Et Cetera?
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Dilkes/As the memo that Andy and I sent you explain if you want to pursue
administrative sanctions against Et Cetera's license as a result of the recent events
there are two options. One option is to formally request that the State Alcoholic
Beverages Division pursue administrative sanctions. They are of course aware of
this matter, they in fact contacted us today to see what the status was and are
expecting a call from us tomorrow in the outcome ofthis ofyourdiscussion. So
what we would do is if we pursued that option is we'd send a letter as early as
tomorrow saying that the Council request that administrative sanctions be
pursued. The other option is that the city can impose sanctions locally, of course
any sanction imposed by the city is appealable to the state. In terms of timing, if
you go directly to the state, it's hard to give an exact time line but typically there's
a review by the Attorney General's office, generally it's our understanding it's
been the practice of the Attorney General to, they prefer to have a conviction on
the criminal charges before they proceed with the administrative penalties but that
is not set in stone and that is a discussion that we could have with them if we
wanted to request that they move more quickly than that. After that's done,
there's a briefing, there's a schedule for briefs, a hearing is set, then there's a
proposed decision made by the administrative law judge, that goes to the
administrator of the ABD who reviews that for a period of 30 days to see if he
wants to make any changes to that, his decision is issued and then there of course
is an appeal to court. Essentially that process would be followed if there was an
appeal, the same process would be followed if there was an appeal of your
decision to the ABD. So those are kind of the two options, we need direction as
to how you wish us to proceed, if you do want to proceed locally our ordinance
requires that six days notice be given to Et Cetera of a hearing that's kind of like
we do with the cigarettes, that's a due process hearing, not a public hearing. So
that hearing could be hearing could be held fairly quickly at the local level.
Probably one additional fact if for instance you would impose a suspension, that
suspension would be stayed pending appeal.
Kanner/That would be what?
Dilkes/Stayed it would not take affect if there was an appeal to the state.
Lehman/Until the state either affirmed or overruled the city.
Dilkes/Right.
Lehman/Now are the sanctions the same if imposed by the city or imposed by the state?
Dilkes/The available sanctions are the same.
Lehman/They are the same, and if we go through the process locally any appeals it will
end up going through the state anyway.
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Dilkes/That's correct.
Lehman/I have obviously, I guess in my opinion, the state is the, we have forwarded the
charge, I think we've forwarded the fact that he's been charged to the state have
we not?
Dilkes/Yes we've been in communication with the state.
Lehman/I think routinely I think we do on any alcohol violation.
Dilkes/We do, we've had some a number of charges recently for sales to minors, we have
forwarded that information to the state.
Lehman/The last time we did, when we failed to approve the issuance of the license it
was appealed to the state, I think there's a 30 day waiting period is that correct?
Dilkes/30 day appeal period.
Lehman/And we did not appeal and of course they overruled us, I personally feel it
would be much better handled at the state level if it's going to end up there
anyway it would be more expeditious and I think it would be viewed on the part of
some as far less political. The sanctions are the same in either case, it just seems
to me that's a procedure that would best be handled at the state level rather than at
the city level.
Kanner/Emie, two parts in my mind. The first one is there a pattern of these things going
on? And I read in the paper there most likely had been other fires of this type, do
we have any reports saying that that probably happened, fires similar to this one
that had injuries?
Dilkes/There is evidence that this was not the first time that that had happened.
Kanner/So there is a pattern that weighs heavily for me. The second thing is I think it
probably will end up in the state and I'd like to go along with you and say let's
just send it to the state but I think we owe it to the conmmnity, this is a difficult
one, and we should have the hearing here first, I think this is a local issue and I
think we need to take the leadership and have the hearing here first and if we
happen to find that they're guilty and we want to level some of these sanctions
they have that right then to appeal it, so be it, but I think we need to take the lead
on this.
Lehman/I think we are taking the lead if we forward it to the state and ask them to pursue
it but that obviously we just (can't hear).
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O'Donnell/And Emie I agree with you, you know we can have a hearing on this, we can
delay the process and the end result is it's going to be appealed, I think we move
faster and more efficiently if we wrote a letter to is it ABF?
Dilkes/ABD.
O'Donnell/ABD, with our strongest recommendation that they pursue sanctions, I think
we do that, I think it eliminates steps, and ultimately gets done what I think we all
want done.
Lehman/They would have the same information that we will.
Vanderhoef/There is one piece that you just said that I am curious about, he said with our
recommendation and I think that's what we did with the liquor license thing that
we didn't go through the hearing process but we did recommend that the license
not be given and so do you think this has any weight if Council is on record?
Dilkes/The way I envision the letter if you want the ABD to pursue this, the letter would
request their earliest attention to the administration of administrative sanctions. It
would not make a recommendation of revocations, suspension or whatever,
you've not had a hearing at that point, nor have you afforded due process to the
license holder to make a specific recommendation, you would ask that they pursue
their process for administrative sanction.
Wilburn/Right and we didn't have a hearing before that was a first application.
Vanderhoef/It was for an application.
Kart/Could I clarify?
Vanderhoef/And we sent a letter of recommendation that it not be granted.
Karr/If just to clarify and not to confuse but you were requested to approve a new license
that time, you needed to make some recommendation on the license, okay that
distinction being made here. And the hearing is not a public hearing, it is a
hearing to hear comments from the establishment which as you may recall you did
have Mr. Pohl.
Champion/Right.
Lehman/Right.
Kanner/Just, just to further clarify we made a recommendation not to approve the
license, that was appealed to judicial.
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Atkins/ABD.
Dilkes/ABD.
Kanner/ABD.
Vanderhoef/Alcoholic Beverage Division.
Dilkes/Division.
Kanner/Did the judge hear it first?
Lehman/No.
Dilkes/No, the way the ABD works is the hearing is held in front of an administrative
law judge, and then a proposed decision is made by the administrative law judge,
the ALJ to the administrator of the ABD, that's how it worked in that situation.
Kanner/Okay thank you.
Dilkes/There was no court judge looking at.
Kanner/Okay so the administrative law judge heard the appeal and overturned our
recommendation or made another recommendation that the license should be
approved, where it then went to the ABD and we at that time decided not to send a
letter for.
Lehman/Not to appeal it.
Dilkes/Not to.
Kanner/Not to appeal.
Dilkes/That's right.
Kanner/We did not do anything at that time and at that time the ABD made the final
determination and gave the license.
Dilkes/That's right, that's right, and remember the crux of the issue in that case was the
connection between The Union and (can't hear). One piece of information that I
should relay to you, it may or may not affect your decision, I was informed by
Kip Pohl today that he is negotiating with a buyer, the buyer's currently seeking
financing approval and he expects to be out of the business in 30 days.
O'Donnell/Then lets send the letter to the state in the morning.
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Wilbum/Are you saying that a letter would not be, if we were to ask for a review by the
ABD that a letter of recommendation for anything not be considered or is that
what your suggesting?
Dilkes/No, no, I think what you do if you send it to the ABD, you know what sanctions
they have available to them, you ask that they pursue administrative sanctions,
they would have a hearing etc. I don't think you make a recommendation of a
particular sanction in that letter.
Champion/Right.
Wilburn/But we're asking that.
Dilkes/They pursue the hearing process and they do what they need to do to impose
administrative sanctions.
Lehman/But we basically are encouraging them to proceed with sanctions, that's the
reason for the letter.
Dilkes/Right, that's right, and just as if you were going to pursue it locally, you would
want to have the hearing before you chose what the appropriate sanction.
Champion/Right.
O'Donnell/Sure and we'd have all that time spent and we'd be asking them to do the
same thing but down the road a ways and I would just, I just would rather get this
letter sent.
Champion/Well this is a bit of (can't hear).
Dilkes/It's my.
(can't hear).
Kanner/Speak into the mic.
Pfab/My point would be, or my question is, is it quicker if we have the hearing here to
get action started and have the appeal go to the state because it's going to be
appealed anyway. I mean the bar owners going to appeal whatever we decide
probably unless we pat them on the back and they go for some more. But there's
going to be appeal, it looks like to me like we are missing out on shortening the
process by not having the hearing here.
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Dilkes/Well you would be, I think that would make sense if the penalty that you would
impose would kick in and it won't because if there is an appeal to the state,
whatever penalty you impose is state, it is not, it doesn't go into affect.
Pfab/It does, if the state hears itself does that eliminate one appeal?
Vanderhoef/Yes.
Dilkes/It eliminates the step from you to the state.
Pfab/So the owner can appeal to the state but they could do even if we had the hearing,
we made a recommendation and it was appealed to the state by the owner.
Dilkes/Right.
Pfab/So is there an extra time process in it?
Champion/Yea.
Pfab/If there is an extra time process in it then I'm not for it.
Champion/There is.
Pfab/Is that true Eleanor?
Kanner/Irvin yea, your going to.
Pfab/No, no, no, wait a minute I'm not sure. Is there, is the timetable longer if we have
the (can't hear)?
Champion/Yes.
Dilkes/I think the time table could be longer if you had an appeal.
Pfab/Okay it could but your not sure.
Lehman/Irvin we could send it.
Dilkes/Well I think it's most likely to be longer yes.
Lehman/Irvin we could send a letter tomorrow, we can't have a hearing for at least six
days.
Pfab/Okay that's fine.
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Lehman/We can tell the public in this community tomorrow in a letter to the ABD we
want you to pursue sanctions against this bar or we could set a hearing and in a
week or two he can meet before us, we can find him guilty, tell him we want to
suspend his license, he could appeal to the state, and three or four weeks from
now it will be before the ABD or it can be there tomorrow.
Dilkes/I can't, I can't answer that specifically Irvin because I'm not in control of the state
process.
Pfab/See the state might say instead of giving him six days they might give him 30 days.
Dilkes/The state is not six days.
Lehman/We have to wait (can't hear) before we can even listen to it.
Dilkes/That's the city. You.
Pfab/Yea but the state may have to listen, the state may have 40 days.
Dilkes/No, no, but the issue is not.
O'Donnell/That was the arc.
Dilkes/Yes you are correct, that you the Council could hold a hearing sooner than the
state will hold a hearing, I think that's most likely the case.
Pfab/But then.
Dilkes/Because you've got a six day notice, and that could be done very quickly. The
problem is because when they appeal to the state the suspension does not kick in,
or the revocation or whatever impose.
Pfab/For 30 days.
Champion/No.
Dilkes/No they have to 30 days to appeal and then while it's being appealed at the state,
while the state is going through the appeal process it also doesn't kick in.
Pfab/Okay but at.
Andy Matthews/Then it all starts over again at the state level when they appeal.
Dilkes/Yes, Irvin the answer to your question is yes.
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Pfab/That's the part I was trying to figure out.
Lehman/Are there four of us or five or six or seven who would like to send a letter to the
ABD tomorrow?
O'Donnell/In the morning.
Pfab/If it's quicker yes, tonight.
Lehman/How many would like to send the letter and let the state pursue this?
Pfab/If it's quicker yes.
Lehman/We have five, we have six.
O'Donnell/Let's do it that way then.
Lehman/Do it tomorrow.
Dilkes/All right.
Lehman/Thank you very much.
Council Time
Kanner/I'll start.
Lehman/Okay.
Kanner/What is the status of the (can't hear) and One Eyed Jake's we got a letter from
that and that someone said they were being abused by One Eyed Jake's in our
packet a few weeks back and it was on April 18.
Atkins/Did you know about that one?
Kanner/They wrote a letter they said they were held by the bouncers them for 15 minutes
and abused in a certain sense and the police were.
Dilkes/I think it's currently being investigated.
Atkins/Thank you, you want status.
Kanner/Yea I'd like status report on that so that there were some serious charges there
against One Eyed Jake's and I think we have to follow up on that.
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Atkins/I will do that.
Kanner/(1P6, IPT, IP8 of 4/25 info. packet) And then we got a report on the child care
center at the new parking ramp that's being planned and I would suggest out
RFP's for that. We, are people familiar with that?
(END OF 02-43 SIDE TWO)
Lehman/Is that timely at this point, that project is probably at least two years away?
Kanner/Well I think they're starting to, it sounds like they're getting ready to choose.
Atkins/We have two people we're talking to, I can't answer that now, let me find that out
for you.
Lehman/I mean there may be other folks surface in the next year and that project is a year
and a half two years away.
Atkins/Well formalizing the process in principle I don't have trouble with, I can't answer
the timing question. What is too soon to put one out, what is too late, let me find
that out and I can hopefully answer both those questions.
Kanner/Yea that's not necessarily the question is too soon or too late, it's if.
Atkins/Why not.
Kanner/Whenever it does become a point that we're going to pick one we have to decide
whether we're going to formalize it and bring other people into it or not, right now
it seems it's a two person ball game and we might want to enlarge if it defines
more what we want.
Atkins/If I recall the staff made some informal contacts and we're having difficulty
finding folks but let me confirm this for you.
Pfab/Are we still attempting with the idea instead of a child care, early childhood
education center?
Atkins/That's what we call it, I'm pretty sure that's what the memo calls for.
Pfab/(can't hear).
Lehman/The problem I have with that is I think there's a significant number of folks who
might use that facility that might not know what an early childhood education
center is but they certainly would know what day care is.
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Pfab/But I think Connie like Connie says we're behind the curb the public already knows
it.
Champion/Well but you don't need to title it.
Pfab/No, but call it what it is.
Kanner/My point in bringing this up is so that we have an RFP and we formalize it and
we come to an agreement on from Council on what we pursue and how we want
to look at this thing.
O'Donnell/But this is about two years away.
Pfab/Well that's what we don't know, we're getting people to say we'd like to move in
there as soon as you get it built.
Atkins/Your trying to answer the question now and I can't, I'll get that to you.
Kanner/(IP15 of 5/2) We also got a memo about lease agreement with Elderly Services
for senior dining and I'd like us to look at if we want to get rent from them, and
apparently we're not asking for any rent from Elderly Services and I think we
need to do that because Elderly Service, (can't hear), cut out the lease with
Johnson County and they didn't, it seems like they didn't take into account that
they're getting that space because we have certain agreements with the County.
Atkins/I need to confirm that for you but to my knowledge the Commission is handling
the discussions with Elder Services and I do not they were going to charge rent
but I'll have to confirm that.
Lehman/Well I looked through the lease twice and I couldn't find any place that they
were paying anything.
Kanner/And everything else looks pretty good, it looks like it's status quo, but I think we
need to determine if we can capture $20,000 a year back from Elderly Services.
Atkins/Let me confirm that for you.
Lehman/Or at least get the thought process from the Senior Center Commission.
Atkins/Well I think the Commission is intending to present a formal proposal to you, I
think if I'm hearing that you all are interested in some sort of rental payments on
the part of Elder Services they should know that sooner than later.
Champion/Well yea if they're using our kitchen that we paid for, there ought to be some.
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Atkins/Oh yea, I think yea.
Karmer/And the County helped pay for it too.
Lehman/Or no, why, one or the other, either we should be collecting money or know why
we.
Atkins/Okay can I at least have some direction that I'm to inform the commission of your
interest in.
Pfab/Collecting rent
Atkins/Collecting rent whatever it might be or if you choose not to propose that explain
yourselves accordingly, okay, I'll do that.
Kanner/And the last thing is we got a memo from the Police Citizens Review Board
where apparently by a loose 3-2 vote they think that the age of consent for police
entrance should be higher than 12 at least a minimum of 14 by three out of the
five members. I would ask that the Council discuss this and see if we can come to
decision, if we want to leave it at that 12 or go higher.
(Can't hear).
Lehman/Well are there four people who want to discuss changing the age from 12 which
is what.
Pfab/Yes.
Karmer/Three people.
Champion/I think twelve's awfully young to let somebody in your house.
Lehman/We don't have four.
Kanner/No, three.
Lehman/We have three that want to discuss it, four that, you see.
Kanner/But three's to put it on the agenda.
Lehman/We can put it on, okay your right, we can put it on, on a work session.
Atkins/On an agenda, okay.
Kanner/Thank you.
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Lehman/Irvin do you have anything?
Pfab/Not tonight.
Lehman/Connie.
Champion/I don't think so except I did tell Terry Trueblood that I think the ashtrays
downtown have made a tremendous improvement on the amount of cigarettes on
the ground.
Atkins/Gosh we hope so, I mean that, I will be candid with you, I am so tired of our
crews having to clean up after people's messes.
Champion/I have to clean them up myself.
Atkins/No, I understand what your saying.
Champion/(can't hear) as many as they are.
Atkins/Watch it flipped in the middle of the plaza and walk away.
O'Donnell/It's too bad they can put gum butts down there.
Wilbum/I suggest that the cigarette butt tax to use that money to hire somebody that
people get picked up for Friday nights (can't hear).
All talking
Lehman/I'm going to Dubuque on Wednesday to talk to the Vision Iowa folks on the
Englert (can't hear). But I believe that is exactly what Vision Iowa funds were
intended for from day one so I will be going up with (can't hear).
Champion/I'm so glad your going Emie.
Pfab/We wish you great success.
Lehman/Hey that's a wonderful project and I really hope we have some success.
Pfab/We hope you come up with the right words and the right strategy (can't hear).
Lehman/I just hope we have a safe trip.
Vanderhoef/Nothing tonight.
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Lehman/Mike.
O'Donnell/Nothing.
Lehman/Oh great breakfast yesterday.
Wilburn/Thank you.
Lehman/A lot of fun, a lot of people, that was just a blast.
Wilburn/Yea we served 1,178 people not counting volunteers.
Lehman/In spite of your less than complimentary comments we had a great time last
Tuesday night too.
Wilburn/But people came by and when they were getting ready to get their food I said if
the pancakes were no good blame it on the mayor.
O'Donnell/So nothing changed.
Lehman/So I left, I left early.
Wilbum/But there were really good comments about.
Vanderhoef/Was this quite a bit higher than a year ago?
Wilburn/It was 750.
Adjourned 9:10 PM
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