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Home My WebLink About1991-12-18 Agenda [t I Lt' b S l' , AGENDA IOWA CITY CITY COUNCIL SPECIAL COUNCIL MEETING" DECEMBER 18.1991 4:66 P.M. JOHNSON COUNTY ADMINISTRATION BUILDING BOARD ROOM 913 S. DUBUQUE ST., IOWA CITY l~."., JJutul (!f,.."i~,..~"" .l/oJA,j ITEM NO.1" CALL TO ORDER. ROLL CALL. CONSIDER ADOPTION OF THE CONSENT CALENDAR AS PRESENTED OR AMENDED. ITEM NO.2" Parmll Malians 01 Rocommondod by Iho Clly Clork. o. Consldor 0 motion approving 0 Closs E Boar Pormll lOt OulkTrlp Corp. dba OulkTrlp 1662, 26 W. Burllnglon St. IRonowoll b. Consldor 0 motion approving 0 Closs E Boor Pormll lOt Randall's Inlornallonal, Inc. dbo Randall', Pantry, 1861 L. Muscallno Rd. (Ronowal) c. Consldor a motion approving a Clm C LIquor L1consa lOt Boals Enlorprlsos, Inc. dba Carnaby Slrool, 121 E, COlloga St. (Now) .Jj~b J ~~lnJ ( (H"V ~f"...) {~8~~Ic~~~T CALEN~;rM S 'O~,,\, dv.'va4fJ'a ~ I...,.....~ Ii :J!/f.lt1. ITEM NO.3" DISCUSSION OF COYNTyr;.1APPINO PROJECT. n fI rA"'-/~~ l1D"'d,.) ktJd'D ~d-W.044.A.J I~ S,'.$or.m. ITEM NO.4. ADJOURNMENT. AI"~ I K~ it ~~("'"" ,: tDp,lIl. -------....-..............-- - .... . .,.--..... - . y- - . .---..........--- ~- ..... - - -.....--.- -.. T-- - - ~ --,. 01 L,.b b ,\ i 12/13/91 r4: County Mapptng PrOj..:t McD/ Okay, Wfll? lArson/I movo to accopt lho subcommlttH's rKOmmendaUon lIorowl For purposos ot dlscusslon I will s(oCond U1al Eubby I Wt don't ntfd to bt U1al tormal, McO/ No, wt don't rttlly nM<! to N btcauw It I; an Informal discussion. Rlgh~ Marian, Karr Illls an Intormal discussion durIng a tormal mNUng. but I don't need a moUon, McO/ Okay. Randy- lAr~1 Thalls my volo I lust ...,nt to vOlo, 11011,11 you don't know how you tool aboulll NovickI Wanl to talk aboul I~ Randy? L"\l~nl tlo, It you don't know how you t~1 aboullt by now... (Problem WIth ro<<<dor). County Employ"1 (ean't htar).., ThrN companl" and you han gollwo thal hav.th. sel amounl and thty havt to do WIth thost maps In U10st sol amounts and U1.n you ban tho counly auditor. Now, do U10y havo a sol amounl What It U10y spend tholr- I don't know whal U10 dollar amounlls. NovickI Ills callO<l a coslovtrrun. 'I Whallt thoy spend tho amounl alloeatod and say "WItoop,well, we only gol thr" tourUls ot U10 counly don. so noxt year W9 will gol somo moro mon.y and we will finish Il up." Larsonl Thalls whal W9 havo to dtcld.. Wo art all woll awaro ot thal 'I Thortls nothing to back Il up, Ills IIko It I go- Kubbyl W. art backing ourstlvos up, Wo ar.... '/lsn'l U1al an open ondtd. It you ara going to build a house or buy a car. You got to know how much Ills going to cosl lArsonl Thallstho camo Wng with ovoryUllng wt do WItoUlor It II shovollng snow oft U1a slt~ts or ovorythlng. 'I Y.ah, U1alls What I moan bul mosl pooplo gol oul and got a bid and U10y say- Larsonll don'lthlnk so. Not whon you can do Il In houso. Courtnoy I Nol all city MrvlctS ara pul oul to bId, Larsonl Wo'vo got 6ltong protoroneo toward9In-hou~. Novl What wo hm to think llboulla wbolMr or nola (Olil oYer run will complotoly caneol out tho dlttoronco In bids, Thalls a risk, 'I !low big ot a cost ovorrun can you havo? Larsonl Thoro Is no mystory to tho Issues horo you guys. Kubby 1.....,Thalls how much we would be saving, SO It we tako lIIo risk and we WIn- ,-.... y.,.--.. - - y - -- ~- ~ ~-~---~-~.........-- - ~ - n , LI' h '-I - - ,\ I County Mapping PrOjt<t p3g. 2 'I So you can't go by th. dollar amount l.anonl Not a contract U1at Wt C4D hold him to. I think b. WOUld vl.w It U1at way to a larg. .Nod, II. would tHI vory IhHpllh U bo couldn't g.tlt don. tor U1at amount Kubbyl Espodally It wt bavt U1. county auditor II U1. prOjO(t managor. I U11nk U1atls Important bO<auso h. Is Ilccountablo to U1. pooplt ot U1t county. It h. scrtWS up th.n h. can bav. somo rocow" by voUng him out Lar500l Dots anybody nttd to dlscuD any turUl.r about It? W. have !tot (In. ot U1. btst county audlton anywb.r. and lol', yolo. McOI tlo. I am not convlncod as you ar. that U1atllth. way to go. Lart .mIl undoutand, I lust want to volt. Mc'J/1 ,m aNut roady to say. lust chuck U1. wbol. U1lng tor rIght now and Mk oft and tako anoUltr look at It LarSOL./lt Is lust .v.rybody'l opinion. I don't havt any Idta bow (>tOpl. want to volo, My alUl.Udo Is lhat h.ls wid.ly rogardtd as a v.ry tin. county auditor. H. says ho can do It H. has don. th.lhlng. Ltl's do II Horow/ But thor. Is mor.-thls whol. busln~ ot doing a prol~~ Randy. Tho proct$S of doing tho prOje<tls otltn lust as Important as lb. contont that Is don.. And In lbls plrUcular ca". wb.n WI h.ar lbat all through lbo pilot project th.r. was IIW.1t any discussion bact and forth botwtOn th. a~r and th. auditor. Yts, you can put som. blam. on th. aswmrI and you can put som. blam. on lb. auditor. Out U1. tact r.malns lb. glv. and tak. bolwtOn thOSt patUos- That original pilot prolect was IUPPOSO to asctrtaln that wtIat.vor happtnod was usotuJ by tho county, lbo city and th. school board, And etrlalnly tho a~r' Ibould hav. boon brougbt In and boon p3rt of lb. pilot prOjecl Th.y wor.n't. So this makH m. rtallzt that It th. tull blown project II glv.n to U1. auditor, th.r.IUlllsn't going to be any dlscusston betwttn th. assosson oUlc.. Larsonl All I hav. to do Is look at U10st two 1.U.rs, Th. 000 we got trom Tom and th. on. wt got trom tho assmo(s and U1at answors my qutsUon about wbo Is at tault tor U1.lack ot communleaUon and cooptraUon, Kubby I Who do you think? l.arson/l don't havo any doubt In my mind. I think that tho assossors have behaved poorly. IIorow/l U1lnk all of U1.m havo, l.arson/l don't doubtthal McD/lthlnk th.r.ls onough blamo to go around, [I , Lt . b EI ,I I County MappIng PrOIO<t p3gt 3 Larsonl Certainly, Ilov / I U1lnk U1at U1oro Is a lot ot blame to go around, McOI This has turned Into a big mtsS Kubbyl Do you think U1at U1ls non-communlcaUon Is rt(oncllablo? It we go to the auditors, Maybt U1at Is ono ot U1t msons tor Moy.~& suggestJon, Larson/l UIlnk It Is, Kubby I Although I hate tor us to have U11s lIvo penon body to be a mediator. That Is montJally what It might end up. Larson/lthlnk his Idta was to mako surt U1at somoonols Involvoo. MeDII don't know, Kartn. That Is a good quostJon. I don't know. !Iorowllt we pull back such as you ~ro suggosUng right now. !low art you going to ro<roate U1ls? With U10 same pooplo In U10 same s1tuaUon and U1t same probltm. I would hate to- I U1lnk U1at wo nO<<1 U10 maps. MeDII am sure U1attht noxt Umt around wo would handlo It dlttorenUy than what we hm handloo this Umo. Nov/l havo to tell you that I am not happy WlUI U1e commtnts trom tho subcommlUot. OUr minutes trom Ult last conttrODco board motUng said that thero would bt a wrltlon rtport trom subcommlttot. Tholr commlltH motUng said that U10rt would bt a written rtport trom U10 subcommlttot. And thero wasn'lone. !Iorowl B<<aUSt Ule subcommlttot IIsltnod.lookoo.they didn't analyzt It as I U1lnk U1at you U10ught U1at thoy wert going to analyzt IL Novl That Is whatlthoughl I oxpO<tod an analysis that said that thost art the things we looked tor, U1oso aro U10 people U1at we toltcould do U10m and btcaUst we tolt U1at ovorybody could do It equally wtll, wt wont tor U10 prlct, Thoro wa5n't any reasoning behind IL Larson/l U1lnk part ot U1atls U1at U1t porson U1at has worked on Itlho most Is Dick and he has ~n conftdont all along and hasn't had any problem WlUlll I am sure U1at had some weight With some people. Horowl That was tho reason why I votod against It bO<auso I did do an In depUI analysis and U1ero-ln II" the spill Ambr/ I am WIlling to acctpt U10 ro<ommtndaUon ot tho majority ot tho commlttoo. Not U1at ho Is sl.1ndlng thoro but I hayo a lot of fallb In Dick Moyer's opInion on U1ls ~nd Mlkt Y.~Uth". Mike KaUthH', background Is allengln~r'ng and 25-30 years ot public sorvlcoln U1ls community and I just think that enough has boon said alroady ovor the last- I have boon on this council tor tight ytars and I think the Umo to do It Is now, n 1 Lt' b Cf - ,\ County Mapping PrOje<t pagt 4 lIorowll agroo WlUI you on U1al 11Ie only way I would go along With It Is II It were structund, It U10 contract wero structurtd 51) U1oro W3S someono olso observing- Ambr II know whero you are coming from and I rtSpoct U1al I r~lIy MV' taJUlln what the majority came up WlUI. 4.1. W. gay. U1tm I chllS' and U10y hm to do Il We gavo U1tm a task to be portormtd Within U1e allotted porlod ot Ume and I havt dono as much reading on U11S as any oUler counctllor, I am saUSlI<'d With what I am coming up With. I know that Tom doosn't hm any experltnCt Wbatsomr, but we havt got to work togothor on this. Wo art going to glvothem a task and my God, you go do Il And you hm U10 possibility ot saving 1200,000. Laraonl $217,000. Courtney I Two U1lngs that I lust want to throw out tor consldmUon, W. are put In U1e position all ot U10 Umt With acctpUng rocommond.\Uons trom our Boards and Commissions and our departmont Mads. And lot's not torgetthat wt havt a strong rocommondaUon trom our department htad, And as our city aS$OS$Or, he Is hlrtd by us and ho Is the head ot U1at dopartmtnl Factor U1atln, I am not making any ludgemont on Ula~ lust factor It In, Kubby I Good polnl Courtney I My greattr conctrn htrtII thattvtn U10ugh wt picked one and go WlUI U10 auditor, I am not sur, that thortls going to be good cooporaUon atttr It Is dono and put In to placo. I haYt got some rNI concerns U1at Ulortls going to be so many hard fotllngs OVtr this thing that we may not get U1t cooporaUon that we want to got tht project done tUocUvely and on schedule and at cosl You may 1ft suporvlsors como back In and W3nt to chargo oxtla tor ronl You may sot people I&lvlng over this. Any number ot things can happen and I haye got somt ml concorns ovor U1al Tho wchnlcal part ot It I can' mate It- Ambr lit may not happen J)arroll but I am roally not gOing to worry about U1al Larson I I am not olUltr... Courtney II wanted to throw U1at out tor your consldtraUon, Horow/lllll, why aren't you concern<'d aboutthal Ambr/ What? Tho cooperaUon? Horowl Yeah, I moan ~rlously. Ambr I 11ItsO are big boys and girls, 11Iey are supposo to be adult human beings. I U1lnk Ulat When pUSh comes to shove U1at U10y aro gOing to live up to their responslblllUes as olectoo officials and as appolntoo department heads, D t Lt' ,-, 0 ,\ County Mapping PrOject pago 5 Larson/lt would be IIko It we told Illo police chlot to do somoUllng and he says that I'm not going to cooperate, McOI You don't have quJte tho control over this U1at we have In somoUllng tl59. L4rsonl Wo do W1U1 U1t aS$OS$Or, our assouor. I think Wt do, Hill lob I; at stake. Horow/lt's an elected oltlclal oolng SUpervised by an appointed-two appointees. Right U10re you bave got a higher couple 01 probloms, If U1e contract Is administered by tho two assossors. Thoy are tSStntiaJly going to havt to havt ovorslght ot an elected orrtctal. Larson/Oh, I don't U1lnk that U10y aro administering Il Thoyan lust rosponslble tor checking U10 final producl Horowl Somobody bas to accept U1e tlnal project or product on Urne and It U10 contract Is- Larsonl That's rlghl lIorowl But they have to say whoUler or not It was done properly. Larsonl Butl don't U1lnk U1at U10y art administering U1e project as it goes. 1I0row/ Who would be? Larsonl Tho auditor. The person that we are hiring to do Il 1I0row/lt Is one thing to do the job. The auditor would be U10 person rtSponslble tor program managomenl But tor program asstSSmen~ evaluation and admlnlstraUon or public monl&s you have to have somebody elst other than the auditor. That Is a contJIct ot Inloresl Larson I I think that all the assessor has t.o do It acceptll Horowl No, Nov / No, Some expert In thoro would know whother or not It Is worth aecopUng, Kubby I Thore art U1roo U1lngll U1at Suo III concorntd about as a minority on U1at llubcommlttoo. One ot U1em Is U10 experlenct and wt have Na~n that up tor awhile. The other two things were quality control and managomenl IloUl ot U10se things you said you teet are acceptable With a contract wordoo very spoctflcally so U1at It somothlng goos awry we ean track It and know what Is suppose to happen. This weird U1lng happened wtUlln U1ls and what Is-and U1ls porson Is rosponslblo tor tilling Il So It we do have a very finely wordoo conlJ'act It you help wtUl U1at coo~ration bocau;o poople know whore U10 UnOll aro drawn and what U10lr rosponslblo tor and what thoy aro not r&Sponslbl& tor. And th&n we nood tocboose who WIll 00 U1atquallty- project ottlcor. We nood, as a big body, to tlguro out who thal Maybe It Is thatliWe subeommlt.toe that Dick Meyer suggested, NovickI No. ,-........ 'Or - -... -- --... - niL,. '-1 . 1 - County Mapping PrOjtet p;lge 6 Kubbyl Maybe It 15,1 mean. I don't know. NovlThls Is a non-commlltH lob, Kubbyl But ';,It nood to dtelde Who U1at Is so som~nols ultimaloly rtsponslblo tor accopting U1al And you had said In Ulo p;lIt Ulat It U10w two Ullnga wtrtlakon cart of U1at you tound U1t auditor aCCtptablt, IIorow/l could U1e auditor WlUI U1al Kubby/lt WIth those two U1lngs, I say lot's tfgure Utose lwo Ullngs oul Dlroct ~ple to be cooponUVt, It U1ty need some outside push U1en wo tlgurt out how to get a tadlttator to come In htrt and got Ute junk out ot htro so wo can go torward and go WIth Ute recommendation. IIorowl Sot BlII,l callod U10 Unlv. ot Iowa Geography Dopt and askod U10m WhtUltr or notthty had evor ~n consulted by stockett during U10 pilot projtct this Is ono ot tht Ullngs U1at he made menUon In his proposal. No, U10y had not botn, I asked whoUler or not U10 Dopl ot Oqrapby graduatt students who wore working there-Whethor tMre was any ovor1lght on tho part ot tho Dopt ot Geograpby as to what thoy wore doing. No, thore wasn't And yetth. Dopt ot Geography doos have a mapping export 110 Is an assoclalo protossor. 110 has not botn consul~ onolnch on U1ls whole thing. Ho actually was walUng until somtbody did consult him. I agroo WlUI Karon U1at It thore could be somoonollko U1at porson conlracted to assist U10 porson Who takts In Ute.who tollows U10 time Uno U1at U10 conlractls constructed tor, Thtn I could go along WIth III tblnk Utat's Is a mlddlo Uno, Ambr lit Ulatls a condlUon thon that Is a condlUon, I hm got no problom wtUt Il L4rsonl And nolthor has Tom, 110 had consultants hired to tio In those U1lngs, lit wasn't undor any burdon to talk to U10 geography depl IIorowl But ho saId U1at ht did. Larsonl He had consultants hlrod to do U1al Horowl No, no, no. He said U1at he had an arrangement wtUl U1e Dopl ot Oeography and Urban Planing on U1ls. Urban Planning doosn'l do mapping. Oeognphy does, They hadn't botn contacted, J,arsonl lie hasn't done It yot Ambr Ilohn, my mind Is mado up... call tor Yolo. McD/I hayt hoard U1roo tor audltor..!t U1ls point (many conversaUons gOing on by councU) Christianson I I don't have Umo to creatt a conlraclthat you aro Imaging trom Whole cloth, _.~ --- - ------ -- ~ - -- ,I , n I LI ' .-, l~l - ,\ , County MJpptng Prott<t pago 7 Gtntry/lt holslbo txpor~ ht" got to dratlll Lanonl Go ahNd and votl It McOl Thor. arolbr.. ot you tMt havo Indlraltd your protoronco tor U10 auditor. Now Ilthort one mort? Kubby I Wllb lhoct condlUons. Larson/l don't know Who tho U1rot art. Karon, 8111 and I? Horow/8ut only WlUI U10st condlUons and It would havt to bt agrHd upon by lbt Wholt CIty County ConforODCO lIoard. Novl All rIght It lbt Whole City County Conftrtnct Bo.1rd Will acctpt SUo" condlUonl U10n U1at changtt lblngs, Kubbyl A m~lorlly or consonsus? Thr" outot lhI~, Novl Wtar. nor going to got a 4-J Itylo ot voUng and got roal cooperaUon. Eubby II don't know It your aro going to gotlbo County Boord ot SUpervisors, McOl Naomi, aro your laltJng about tvoryont around U1at tabloln thoro? Novl Yft. McDI That', not going to happen? Kubby I That Is unrtallsUc. (tvoryono'p03k.) Ambrlscol That wouldn't happen It Wt askGd What Umoltls, Larsonl Wo can accompliSh lbat by ordorlng your omploy" to do Itlbat way, McDI Wo can do What? Larsonl We (In accomplish that by ordering Dan to do It that way. I don't know Why ovorybody I. atrald of tilling IA1n What to do, McDI Tho a$StS$Or'1 posiUon Is a IIWo bit dlttorontlban lbt dopartmtnt boad, Randy. tlow wt do mako lbt appolntmont to U1at poalUon, It we havt a problom With tho dOp.lrlmont hoad Wt ~II him (Atkins), right ovor Uloro, and ht olthor handles It or we got rid ot him, Rlghl CourtnoYI Wo'ro going to hav. to do our own dlrly work on Ulls 011.. CIty Mgr, City Clk, we do our own dirty work. McDIll Is lust one ot tho probloms Wllb lbo aSStSSOr and Is lust U10 ...,y tho ~lUon. OontrY/llls.tatutory and U1ty havo to pass olClms, otc. McDI Thoro Is no rtally dlrt<t supervlslon. Gontryl SUro, you got control ot tho budgOl Larson/lt ho doesn't lblnk we art his boss, I havo a dlttoronco ot opinion With him, I can ~II you lbat right now. n I Lt' .-, ~,. - ,\ , County Mapping PrOlect page 6 lIorow/ll you don't UIlnk U1at you are going to be able to get that strlngont ot a structured contract With outside quauty control, Ulon I am- Courtney II UIlnk you can got a contracl Who would oblect to some sort ot a contract? KubbylOkay. But you aro not oxpo<Una to got maybe a 3-0 volt. II we can got a 2-1 vooo. Tho sUp9rvlsors aruaylng no bul lilt lsa 2-1 and U1en U10y would agrot to tile contract and U1at Is acceptable.. not all the vooos... Larson/lt may not make a duteronC9. McDI So U10rels a majority U1at want to go With U1e auditor under UIOSf condiUons. lIorowl Bill, Is that accoptablo to you? Ambr II accoptll Larsonl Novl What about you, Dana? (mryono talking) Nov II know that you don't got to vote. I lust want to know an opinion. I would vote. Would you Imaglno Ulat a contract can bo wrllton In such a way that we could got quality control over tho ond product? this Isn't a contract WIth an outside consultanl This Is a contract WlUI a elected otllclal. ChrlsUansonl Tho dutoronco and tIlatls a koy dlltoronce OOC8Ust ulUmately Whon you look to that contractor to glvo you tho product that you want. In UIls case we WIll be looking to U10 auditor and I use that carotully because this Is a contract WlUI U10 ottlco ot U1e auditor and not WIth Tom S1ockoU. And the County Board ot SUp9rvlsors. They havo to be on tho contract . provldor ot Ulls servlct. Thoy are guaranteeing U1at servlco. Ills undor U10lr auspices U1at It Is being dono. WIUI U10lr monoy U1at lIO's running U1at offlco, It Is U10 only way U1at UIls Is gOIng to work. So wllon I say Ulat. what Ulat moans Is U1at to guarantee tile product you do not look simply to X Company. It 19 U10 Conforonco Board looking to Auditor plus Board of Supervisors, Nov I That sounds gray, ChrlsUansonl That Is OM ot tho risks ot doallng WlUI a public oUlclal. Nov I This contract can probably not be wrltton as UghUy as wo would IIko. ChrlsUanson/1t can be vory Ught but What It Will moan Is olUlor Instant dotault or you WIll ond up doallng With the County to get what you want. And Whother or not they want to be part ot tha~ I don't know. ~-""------.--- - T--- - rl I LI ' '-I LI - .I I i . , , I I i j . , i ! i I I I I I I I I , I ! I I j , I , ! I County Mapping PrOltct p.1go 9 That Is lbe only way I SfO Ults contract working II Wltb thtm as p.1rt ot lb~ vondor, 1I0rowII WlUldraw lhls. Larsonl You don't want to volt tor Sidwell? McD/ No. I don't want to volt tor any of Utll. No, Larsonl Not right now? McDlt/ot right now. I U1lnk that U1. Whole U1lng. I agr.. WlUt you What you said a tow mfnutos ago. Tho Wholo U1lng II rldlcuJous, I UlJnk that It Is- Kubby/lt Is not gotng to stop hor.. Larsonl NI>, It's noL What 01$0 Is going to got stopptd bocaUSt fl\'Oplt C.1n't work togoth.r? Cowtnoy lit th.y want maps thoy Will work It out and como Nck to us, And thoy do want maps, Kubby I W. art Whining about how Whiny \\'0 all ar.. Larsonl Att wo dono? McD/1 don't know. W. art going to SfO Whattho-thtro was a maJority going ont way. I want to SfO If that malortly sUlloldsts. ChrlsUansonl At tho point Whoro tho voto Is Iak.n In htr.that Will be polled IndiVidually. ThOSt Will be added up and doclded It that Is a Yo5 or a no on the volt, Quilt trankly lbor. Is no moUon oulthoro for you to volt on yoL So I don't think It Is n0ct$$3ry that you com. to a point Whore you aro r.ady to say thalth. city says- Karr Ilthlnk that they Mayor Is counUng hoads Is all. McD/ljust want to sot If thor.ls a majority, Larsonl Tht Mayor hasn't tfgurod out how to count his own htad at this poln t. Courtntyl Wt han tho right to abstain on tho volt. Karr I It may also Impact Wh.thor you WUlt to conUnuo Wlthanothor rt(ou or adjourn thIs mooUng. Tho formal mooUng. Bocauso In light ot U1at you may want to rocoss again. go back In th.ro and dlKUSS and havo tho availability to com. back In hor. to rtdl$(ust again and lh.n adjourn. Kubby lit would lust lake a MCond to adjourn out Uloro. Larsonl Fin. WIth mo. Karr I That Is a f10ldblllty l;suo. Kubby I So art you changing yow mind, SUo? Larsonl Movo to recoss. Horow/l am changing my mind. Althls point I think thal we had bolUr drop this and forc.thom to como NCk, Karr! No, I don't havo a socond. j I I i n , L, , '-I c, - - .' I COunty Mapping PrOj9Ct p3gt 10 Kubby I Wtll you fxplaln your dlsunslon? COurtney I Socond, Karr I To rocoss? lIorowl Explain my dlawnslon. McDI All of U10a0 In favor ot rocO$s at this polnl..motion carrlK. I ! , . ;