HomeMy WebLinkAbout2006-11-06 Transcription
November 6 2006
City Council Work Session
Page 1
November 6, 2006
City Council Work Session
6:30 PM
Council:
Staff:
UISG:
Bailey, Champion, Correia, Elliott, O'Donnell, Vanderhoef, Wilburn
Atkins, Boothroy, Dilkes, Franklin, Helling, Karr, Long, Neumann, O'Malley, Trueblood
Baeth
TAPES: 06-80 Sides I and 2; 06-82 Sides I and 2
Farmers' Market
Wilburn:
Elliott:
Wilburn:
(laughter)
Wilburn:
Trueblood:
Bailey:
Trueblood:
Wilburn:
Trueblood:
Champion:
Trueblood:
Champion:
Trueblood:
Farmers' Market update. Good evening everybody.
Good evening.
You want to hold it down in the back row there?
Farmers' Market update. Is that you?
Already?
Now you know why you're here.
I'm not used to being first.
Well, saved the best for last, Terry.
Thank you very much. Are we done yet? First thing I'd like to do is to introduce Tammy
Neumann to you. Some of you have met her, I know. Tammy is my administrative secretary and
our Farmers' Market supervisor. There is a memo in your packet dated November 2"d, and the
first thing I'd like to do, it's always nice to start out this way, is call your attention to a mistake.
It's not a big mistake. But on page 2, very bottom of the second paragraph, where it says in
parenthesis attachment #2, in case you missed that, there was no attachment #2.
I didn't even notice it.
One minute. There wasn't an attachment #1 either. Or 3.
Must have copied this from a long time ago.
A couple of days, anyway. So anyway, the primary purposes in this memo were, one, to provide
some information about the market, including numbers, give a little history of some of the
significant events or changes, highlighting the more significant ones, to just talk about some of
the hows and whys of the operation and to give you an idea of the rules. Not only the City rules
but also rules as applied by the Iowa Department of Inspections and Appeals, the Iowa
Department of Agriculture, and the Johnson County Department of Public Health. So there's
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City Council Work Session
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quite a few players in this. We also wanted to touch on a few of the issues to be considered if
the market is to be expanded, since we koow that this is one of the things that had been
mentioned in the past, anyway. And to make you aware of the other markets in the Iowa City
and Coralville area.
In order to avoid problems, such as the one that occurred last year, one of the changes that we're
making is with the registrationlcompliancelindernnification form. And with the help of the City
Attorney's Office, this fonn is being revised substantially, and it will include not only the
critical information we need but also some check-off points. Just to give you an example,
there's, if you want to register as a season vendor, and if the application is denied, do you want
to be on the non-season vendor waiting list. If you want to be on Wednesdays only, Saturdays
only, or both, how much advance notice do you need? Also check-offs like where the applicant
is authorized to be a season vendor or the application is denied to be a season vendor because
some of the same things for non-season vendors. One of the things too you might remember
was a bit of a problem last year was what is called appeal rights. Which we did have them for
years in place, and it is stated in the code, but it wasn't included on this form, so now it will be
included right on the form so that everybody can be aware of the exact procedures and that it, as
well as the other operations, are in compliance with City code.
To me, however, the big difference is not so much in the information as in the procedure. In the
past these forms have been mailed out in advance to all the season vendors, to be signed and
returned prior to the market season. And this procedure will continue. With regard to those on
the waiting list, however, in the past we allowed them to be placed on the list without filling out
a registration form. They simply had to call, call in or drop by the office and request to be
placed on the list. They would then complete their form at their first market. And we did this
frankly to make it easy on them. But with the new procedure they will be required to complete a
signed and dated form and submit it to us at the time they request to be placed on the waiting
list. And the applicant will be given a copy, of course, once all the signatures are secured.
At the end of the memo you received we listed some issues to be considered if the market is to
be further expanded. I would like to add one more, and that's staff time. The larger the market
becomes, the more special activities are added to the market, the more stafftime that's needed.
Even if we're pennitted to hire more temporary employees, more of Tammy's time will be
needed to manage the program, taking her away from other duties and responsibilities. Now, I
wouldn't consider this to be a huge factor, but a factor that needs to be considered nonetheless.
This item, the Fanners' Market item, is also on the agenda to discuss with the Parks and
Recreation Commission Wednesday evening, this coming Wednesday evening. We plan to
report to them what comes out of this meeting and open it up for discussion with them. So that's
just kind of a quick run-through of how things are operated, summarizing the memo and so
forth. So at this point I'djust like to open it up for discussion and questions and I'm sure
Tammy would be pleased to answer any questions you have.
O'Donnell:
I have a question. What's a non-potentially hazardous baked good?
Bailey:
No cream filling.
(laughter)
Elliott:
Smart.
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Neumann:
O'Donnell:
Neumann:
Bailey:
Champion:
Bailey:
Champion:
O'Donnell:
Neumann:
O'Donnell:
Neumann:
O'Donnell:
Neumann:
Correia:
Neumann:
Correia:
Bailey:
Neumann:
Bailey:
Champion:
Neumann:
That's a good question.
Thank you.
You know, I don't know. I would have to check with the Health Department to see what that's
referring to.
It's a non-cream pie. Can't have coconut cream pie.
Brownies would be non-potentially dangerous.
Yeah. Apple versus coconut cream.
Apples, apple pie.
Then prohibited foods it says meat and meat products.
Mmm hmmm.
There's always a truck over there selling meat.
Right. And I believe
Has to be frozen? Is that it?
I believe so. And he also has to have, I believe, a Farmers' Market, the Johnson County
Farmers' Market license to sell that.
It does say it down here. They can be sold if properly licensed. Because I know there's salsa
there now, I mean, people are selling salsa, so they must be getting a license from public health?
Yes.
Ok.
And so that's part of your responsibility? You have to check all these people?
I don't need, well, yes, somewhat. If they call me and they tell me that they are going to be
selling an item like that, I tell them to check with the Department of Health to make sure that
they have everything required.
Ok.
Has there ever been any consideration of using City Park and expanding this to as large as
possible, since parking would not be an issue, and?
Urn, I have, just in some old files I have noted that that has come up before. The issues are
always the same as far as, you know, they like being in the ramp because they're out ofthe
weather, and the customers like that as well.
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O'Donnell:
Bailey:
Neumann:
Bailey:
Neumann:
Bailey:
Neumann:
Bailey:
Neumann:
Correia:
Bailey:
Correia:
Neumann:
Bailey:
Neumann:
Bailey:
Neumann:
More convenient to get to, to. If you walk.
More people can walk. On the way home from work.
Right. Being closer to downtown I think is better.
One of the things I've noticed, I rarely go to Wednesday nights because it's so crowded, and I
think farmers' markets playa couple of different roles. One is a community building role, in
that you get to see a lot of people, and that's why Wednesday nights are fun. Has there been any
discussion about how to continue the success of Wednesday nights but to mitigate some of that
overcrowding? I mean, you really, literally, you can not walk down the aisle and I have scars
from strollers and that's when I stopped going. It'sjust, so, has there been any discussion
about?
I know there have been comments made about the crowd. As far as suggestions, other than, you
know, making the market larger, I haven't had any good suggestions on how to alleviate that
problem. And as far as making it big, you know, larger, more stalls on Wednesday, we have the
parking issue to deal with.
Right.
We had talked last year at the end of our season meeting about moving some vendors out into
the park. It brought up a lot of issues about what that traffic would do to the park itself. I know
in Cedar Rapids at Knoll Ridge they said that there's no grass where they have their markets
and so on anymore, and I don't think Terry or Terry Robinson either one want that to happen
over there, so.
Well it just seems like the aisle needs to be bigger so, this would get into the parking issue,
moving the east side to that, over one line of parking, so there's a whole line of parking that
would be open for traffic, basically, foot, people walking through, and they're farther apart.
Ok. And so are you saying, should we?
Where's your PowerPoint, Terry?
Yeah. Disappointed. I want a pointer.
Overhead.
Ok. So, on Wednesday markets these shaded areas is where we have vendors. Are you
suggesting that we have this row and then this row here?
Well it's a thought just off the top of my head.
And let people park here.
Well no, not let people park in there. Let people walk in there.
Ok, ok.
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Bailey: Because that increases the size of the aisle. And I'm not, I'm interested in seeing Farmers'
Market grow, but not necessarily on Wednesday nights because of the parking challenges. I
think that Saturdays we should be exploring some ways to use Farmers' Market in a synergistic
way with our downtown, and I don't know how we could further connect that, maybe that
would be changing the location of the Saturday market, kind of what they're trying to do in Des
Moines with bringing people down to the Court Street area.
Neumann: Well, and they have done that in Cedar Rapids this year.
Bailey: Right.
Neumann: Where they moved the first, the first market of the month they have downtown. I did talk to
Theresa White, the market manager in Cedar Rapids, today, and she said that their Downtown
Association handles that. She said it's very, very expensive and it's a lot of time, but it was very
successful. I believe they had about 50+ vendors and over 5,000 customers.
Bailey: I think it would be interesting. I don't know about its feasibility, but it might be something the
Commission might want to explore, but I mean, there are a couple of possibilities, Iowa Avenue
being one, on Saturday mornings.
Correia: So the, in Cedar Rapids you said the Downtown Association took that over?
Neumann: Right.
Correia: Does the City, do you know, does the City provides any financial?
Neumann: What she told me is they worked in cooperation with Downtown.
Bailey: You don't have that capacity.
Neumann: But I don't know as far as what, financially, they put in.
Vanderhoef: One of the things that I have thought about for, actually, it will come up in the next part of this
evening, but, we have property at the comer of Gilbert and College that does not look very nice,
and I really would like to take the gas station down, the cute little gas station down, and
resurface that lot and make it into parking at this point in time.
Bailey: Oh, that would look better.
Vanderhoef: That would look better, getting rid of all of that broken-up concrete and mess up there with the
weeds growing in the cracks and so forth. The other thing that I had thought about is that lower
building that faces the alley and then the park.
Wilburn: Smash 'em.
Vanderhoef: If it's not holding up the Wilson Building, take that out and put a row of vendors there and use
the alley as the walkway over there. That would give us some more space without getting out
into the grass.
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Bailey:
Neumann:
Bailey:
Neumann:
Champion:
Neumann:
Champion:
Correia:
Bailey:
Neumann:
Correia:
Neumann:
Bailey:
Champion:
Bailey:
Champion:
Bailey
O'Donnell:
Champion:
O'Donnell:
Bailey:
One of the things I mentioned to Terry at one time is, particularly for Saturday, is to do
something with the second floor of the ramp, put vendors inside and then close off the bridge
and then put vendors outside, so it's more of a street fair.
I think as far as putting vendors on the second floor
I know that there are some challenges.
Right.
Why? Can drive in there.
It's, it's not, it kind of has a slant, there's a lot of the vendors that wouldn't be able to get their
vehicles in there, and it's pretty dark.
Oh.
It's not lighted, and low, or?
You told me that you'd have to change the lighting, or the lighting would have to be changed,
when we talked about this.
Right. It' s.
The ceiling is lower, right, in the?
Yes.
You've never been in the second floor of that.
I mean, I think it's fine to talk about expanding it to a different location, but I think part of the
beauty of it is people know when it is and they expect it, so I think it is personally important to
decide where you're going to keep it and keep it there. People get confused, oh, it's the first
Saturday, where does that mean they're at? Or is that the second Saturday, or-
Well, I'm trying to get it more connected with downtown so we get more, you know, of that,
just more foot traffic downtown. I mean, I do know people walk downtown on Saturdays, but I
think it could be exciting for some of our downtown stores.
It used to be downtown, before, on that empty, a long time ago.
Right, right.
But it was in the weather.
It was in the weather. Yeah.
You know what? This Farmers' Market is really a,
Oh, I hate it in the ramp.
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O'Donnell: I love the Fanners' Market, I think it's great for the community, it's worked for a long, long
time. Outside of expanding it a little bit where it is, I don't know why we'd want to mess with
it.
Bailey: Well, I'm trying to sort of use it as an economic development sort of build the downtown sort of
approach. That's why I was suggesting moving it closer to downtown or doing something with
street closures to bring people destination downtown. I mean, that's what Des Moines does, and
that's what I think Sioux City does with their indoor/outdoor farmers' market. It's a, and
Saturday mornings can be pretty quiet downtown.
O'Donnell: It's a block away.
Elliott: Terry, I think I talked with you when I came back from Rochester this summer. They had, oh, I
think maybe 3 blocks shut off and they had all open air. Now that was more of a celebratory
type situation, where they're selling hot dogs and different things. It wasn't so much a fanners'
market. But if you did expand into the street right here in front, might not there be some people
who would kind of like to have that? When I was in Rochester, the people did have their
enclosed trailers from which they did business, and they were, they were made to order with
service windows and they had electricity or some gas, gas heat in there to cook things or to fry
things or to refrigerate things. And it was just kinda neat. And it just seems to me, this would be
a nice street to open that onto. So I'm, like Regenia, I would like to see it expanded into areas if
that would be at all possible. And parking is always going to be a problem. I understand that.
Trueblood: Well, parking
Vanderhoef: Regenia' s idea, up on top, since that ramp has entrances off of two different streets, to put some
outdoor vendors up on College Street.
Bailey: Well, and they could go into that parking lot too.
Vanderhoef: And if we created some more parking on the comer lot there for the time being, that would give
them opportunities for people who didn't want to go down the stairs or go in and get in the
elevator and go down and do all of that stuff. That's another option.
Trueblood: I can tell you that in years past the, several parking spaces underneath the College Street Bridge
were part of the Farmers' Market. But it got to the point where we wouldn't even have any
vendors take those, because they felt like they were separated from the rest of the Market. Yet
they're right next to 'em. So I don't know how they would feel about going to another level,
unless, for example, the Market were to double in size, so that half of them were up a level and
the other half down a level. To be honest, Bob, we had never talked about, and the thought had
never occurred to me of, as far as closing off Washington Street on Saturday mornings for a
Market.
Bailey: That would
Champion: It would be fun.
Bailey: I think that would work.
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Elliott:
Bailey:
Correia:
Elliott:
Bailey:
Elliott:
Trueblood:
Elliott:
Neumann:
Elliott:
Neumann:
Elliott:
Bailey:
Neumann:
Bailey:
And that would make it, it would keep it where it is, make it continuous as well as contiguous
and it's something to think about, anyway.
And you've got so many people crossing that street. It would
You don't have to worry about people crossing.
And on Saturday morning parking out here.
Yeah. Yeah. That's - that could work.
I did have one question, not to secede from thinking about that, but how important is it for some
people to have multiple stalls? I notice you have 51 people, 51 vendors with 77 stalls and 50
with 31, when there are others on a waiting list and, is it important that we have people with
what, 2 or 3?
Well, I'll let Tammy address it primarily, but before that, I'm gonna tell you the gist this year,
this past year. We implemented an administrative rule, if you will, that would say that no one
can have more than 2 stalls. There are a few with 3 stalls that we grandfathered them in, but
starting with this past market there's no more than 2 allowed, and some, frankly, do need 2
stalls to operate, but beyond that.
Yeah. It does make sense that people with multiple stalls while there are others on a waiting list.
Yeah. I think that, especially the produce vendors, they tend to need more space. The other
thing is, I think if we were to take away a stall from a produce vendor, I or 2, I don't know that
we're going to be able to replace them with another produce vendor. I mean I do have produce
vendors on the wait list, but there's also a lot of craft vendors and, as we said in our memo,
that's kind of something that we would like, I mean the craft vendors add a lot to the market,
but we don't want it to become more craft vendors than produce vendors. And a lot of the
people that do have the 2 and especially the 3 stalls, from what I understand, have been vending
at that market since it started.
That' s. Well. I was just wondering. There, obviously is logical reasons for that.
Right.
One question on here. Do we want it to be a farmers' market or a craft show? I don't think you
really need to ask the question. I think either one. That if people want to come to one or the
other or both, I don't see that that's a problem. I don't think that you need to ask the question.
That would be my personal thought.
How far out, how far out do we draw vendors?
How far out do we?
Out. I mean, is this, is this a regional farmers' market, is this contiguous, I mean, counties
around?
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Neumann: Ifwe, probably the furthest, one person I can think of is from Cedar Falls. We have a few from
Benton. And then we get Kalona, and.
Bailey: Right. Obviously. I mean, could we get more produce vendors if we went, if we more widely
advertised? What's your experience with that?
Neumann: Well, I don't have any experience with that. Because I don't know how far they're willing to
travel, because there's other markets that they can attend that are probably closer.
Bailey: Probably a really good market. I mean, people travel for some of the bigger markets, I know
they travel quite a ways. So if, for example, the market expanded and we were drawing more
people and it was more of a destination event on Saturday mornings, I think we could also draw
more vendors.
Neumann: Right.
Bailey: And I, I would like to always see it more food, produce than craft. That's just my bias, but I
think it should be an outlet for fresh, locally grown food.
Vanderhoef: I'll go along with that one.
Correia: Me too.
Elliott: I've been outvoted.
Bailey: But there will be always be a portion of it. I mean, I think we should, you know, we should
always.
Elliott: I can see giving preference to don't hold a food vendor out for a trinket vendor.
Champion: Oh, I think you're going to have to make some rules.
Baeth: How do you decide who gets a stall?
Neumann: It's based on the waitlist, basically.
Baeth: It's first come, first serve. Always.
Neumann: Yes. Well and also depending on what they're selling and if they're, if they have the right
licenses to sell that item.
Trueblood: The first criteria, though, is people who have been vendors in the past.
Baeth: Ok. So it's seniority, too.
Trueblood: They get in if they want in, then it goes on a waitlist on a first come, first served basis.
Baeth: Ok. Thanks.
Vanderhoef: About what percent of the market is produce versus craft?
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Neumann:
Ah, right now, on the Saturday market, I believe right now it's 18% are crafters and the rest are
produce and baked goods.
Trueblood:
That would mean 82%.
(laughter)
Vanderhoef: And you didn't even have to take your shoes off.
Elliott: Thank you, Mr. Einstein.
Neumann: So, yeah, I kind of.
Correia: And plants and, I'm sorry.
Neumann: Go ahead.
Correia: So but plants, people are selling flowers and perennials - those are considered not craft.
Neumann: Right. I guess when I looked at that, yeah, the 82% would be the plant vendors, the baked good
vendors.
Correia: Ok. Produce, meats. Ok.
Bailey: That also accounts for the prepared foods, the eggrolls, those kinds of things? Are those lumped
in?
Neumann: Yeah. There's only one, I did lump them in there just because there's just one.
Bailey: Yeah. I, I think our mix is good now. I would never want to see it really go over 20% crafts,
personally. I know that that's a number right out of the air, but when I think of the mix now.
Champion: Then we should make a rule so that there isn't 20% or 25% crafts with the next craft person on
the waiting list - they'll have to wait until somebody leaves from that thing.
Neumann: Right. Cedar Rapids has theirs, their rules state that the craft vendors can only sell during May,
and then I think it's September and October. The only issue that I have with that is that we have
a lot of craft vendors that have been, you know, season vendors for years, and I would hate to
have to tell them now that we're going to say you can only sell at our slower produce time.
Bailey: Yeah. I think we should just go for a mix abd keep it at whatever percentage is determined
appropriate.
Vanderhoef: I like the idea, though, of setting that number, and if we're at 18 right now, maxing it out at 20%
seems like a reasonable number.
Neumarm: I looked today, and like I said, just looking at the Saturday market, if we were to add everyone
that's on the current waitlist to the market we would end up at 21 % craft vendors. So it wasn't
quite as high as I thought it was going to be, but.
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Bailey: And then I think if we, if we decided to expand the Saturday market, being really proactive
about going outside and getting more produce vendors, I mean, it might be possible. I don't
know what you might find. I mean, they might already be booked up. Saturday mornings are
popular. But if they thought this was a more lucrative market.
Vanderhoef: Which one actually sells the most? Do you have any idea?
Neumann: In Iowa City? I believe we do.
Vanderhoef: The, well I mean, between Saturday and Wednesday.
Bailey: I bet it's Wednesday.
Neumann: Well, the only thing is, we do have 21 more vendors on Saturday.
Bailey: True.
Neumann: And Wednesdays we have such an influx of people at 5:30, but that market's only 2 hours,
whereas Saturday you've got.
Bailey: True. But it seems busy the whole time.
Neumann: You know, honestly I don't know. They don't, we don't keep records of their sales, so. But it
might be interesting to find out from the vendors.
Vanderhoef: I was just thinking if there's one that is smaller, that maybe the percent on the crafter could be
larger, ah, on a slower market versus the other way, but.
Wilburn: Do you know what to do from all ofthat, or do you want us to?
Bailey: Can you explore Bob's idea about closing the.
Trueblood: I'm sure Tammy knows. Yeah.
Bailey: I like that bringing it out into the street on Saturday. I think it would be fun.
Champion: It is a good idea. I like it too.
Neumann: My only concern about that where, I know from the vendors' point of view, and that's
something I guess we'll have to discuss is, how do we charge them, the people that are outside?
Champion: The same. Like in a big city.
Neumann: Ok. Because they're going to be exposed to the elements there.
Bailey: But I think it's, but I think there's an attractive, I mean, you're, I think it's attractive. I know it's
in the weather, but I think people will find it appealing. I mean they'll probably do ok.
O'Donnell: Why, why would you?
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Correia: Well, if we're expanding, if you want to be in.
O'Donnell: Why would you go outside, though.
Neumann: There is room in the ramp to expand, if.
O'Donnell: That's what should happen, I think.
Bailey: I just, I find it hard to get a, you never can tell what color the doggoned vegetables are in that
ramp - the lighting is so horrible. I, I appreciate, and I'm surprised that they like it in there,
because in the fall months the cold stays in there so long in the morning. It can be much warmer
outside and much colder in the ramp on those Saturday mornings. So. I mean, I get that you're
not getting rained on, but it's cold in there.
Vanderhoef: Well, they set up tent tops when we have Arts Fest and so forth. So there wouldn't be any
reason why they couldn't have their own tent, if th~y wanted to do that.
Bailey: Yeah, if they brought them.
Champion: I bet a lot of them would though.
Elliott: I guess Ijust think there's a little chemistry involved when you come down, and I'm not a
farmers' market person, I probably wouldn't walk across the street.
Bailey: Doesn't eat vegetables.
Elliott: But when you come down and walk through an open-air market out on the street in the
sunshine, it, it's just a nice feeling.
Bailey: I agree with you Bob. It's surprising.
(laughter)
Trueblood:
Let me see if! have this straight Bob.
Elliott:
You ought to rethink that, then.
Trueblood:
You wouldn't walk across the street, but you would walk to the street if it were in the street.
Bailey:
No, you would get a baked good.
Elliott:
I might even walk the other way.
Bailey:
You might get a donut. Come on. A cinnamon roll.
Correia:
Hot dog.
O'Donnell:
Eggrolls.
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Bailey: Oh, probably not eggrolls - that might be stretching it.
Vanderhoef: Oh, he, that stretches his.
Trueblood: There's been a lot of discussion, a lot of good discussion. I'm not sure yet just what the majority
of you would like to see.
Champion: We'd like to see it expanded.
Bailey: (can't hear)
Trueblood: I think one thing that came out clear was you'd like to see us expanding Saturday morning.
Wilbum: I think that's right.
Trueblood: But you all recognize the parking problems for Wednesday evening. And we will, what I'll do is
follow up with a memo back to Council kind of summarizing some of the points to make sure
we're on the same page, ifthat's ok.
Bailey: Is there something that we can do to look at alleviating the crowding on Wednesday? I know
that that's a huge challenge, but if, you know.
Trueblood: When you bring that up I understand what you're saying, and yes, there's a way, for example,
what you mentioned is feasible. But I'm not sure it's feasible to do both that and expand the
market. So, but it's something we can take a look at and see if we can, see if Tammy can corne
up with some ingenious idea.
Bailey: Turn the parking ramp into a farmers' market. Period.
Neumann: Ijust, in looking at the Wednesday schedule I just, I know the troubles that we have now on
Wednesdays, and if we were to open this row, well I mean, put the vendors over here and then
no parking or anything on the inside row, it's just going to open up more challenges with
parking.
Correia: So right now on Wednesday, what's the parking? When do people have to, which
Bailey: When do people have to get their cars out of there?
Correia: Yeah. Which spaces do people have to be out by 5 :OO?
Neumann: It's the shaded.
Correia: Just the ones that are shaded, not any on the other side.
Neumann: I'm sorry, what. Yeah. The shaded stalls are the, well; actually, those 2 full roWS and then here
under the bridge are where the vendors are.
Correia: No, I knew that, but
Neumann: And also up here. So that is where the cars need to be out by 5: 10.
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November 6 2006
Bailey:
Neumann:
Correia:
Neumann:
Correia:
Neumann:
Correia:
Champion:
Bailey:
Champion:
Correia:
Neumann:
Trueblood:
Bailey:
Correia:
Wilburn:
Trueblood:
CDBG/HOME
Wilburn:
Long:
So that's public parking, all public. Not permit.
Oh, no, it's permit and public both.
So row, or spaces 3 I to 54, they don't have to be out, those permitted spaces.
That's correct. Or I through
Right, well, I was just looking at
And under the bridge, yeah.
And so, there's a problem with just expanding, saying permitted spots 3 I through 54 have to be
out as well as the other ones?
Well, the other problem is that also a lot of people coming to the Farmers' Market use those
spaces after 5:00, so if you expand, if you get rid of another row of parking, I'm not sure where
people are?
Well they park in the City lot.
Well I know.
Park in Tower Place.
You know, the issue right now is that a lot of times the vendors will come and there's cars in
their stall, so then we have to, and that is why you'll see a few empty spaces. We leave those
open for that purpose, so ifthose vendors are not able to use their stalls we can try to move
them elsewhere rather than having them set up behind a car that's parked there. We try not to do
that.
But that's only on Wednesdays. We don't have to do that on Saturdays.
Right.
Right.
I' II look forward to the memo.
I'm sure you will.
Next item for discussion is CDBG/HOME. I have a conflict of interest on this item, and will not
participate in this discussion.
Hello. Not quite as exciting as Farmers' Market, but I'm here to talk about different CDBG and
HOME policies.
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Elliott:
(laughter)
Long:
Correia:
Long:
Correia:
Long:
Elliott:
Your shirt's prettier, 1 think.
Did you notice I dressed alike, as well? As you may know, or may not know, we annually
review our CDBG and HOME policies and it's a little bit more important now that we, that our
funding has been cut drastically. Since fiscal year '03, we've had a 28% cut in our CDBG
funds, so we want to make sure and tighten up all of our policies so we can use the funds
prudently. First I'm going to talk about the economic development policy. HCDC, actually,
Housing and Community Development Commission discussed this at their August 15th meeting,
and they specifically wanted to look at the set-aside, and there's a couple of different reasons.
One is the amount that comes from our allocation, and currently the policy is it's 9% of the
combined CDBG and HOME funds, when in actuality we can only use CDBG funds for
economic development. And the second item, what they looked at, we have a lot of money in
that fund right now. We have 200, about 244 thousand dollars sitting there, and it looks like
we're going to be getting another 75 thousand dollars back for a project where the funds were
committed, but it's not going to be proceeding. So we're going to have about 319 thousand
dollars sitting in this pool of money, and when HUD looks at our program, that's something
they look at. It's called timeliness, and so we have to be, that's a concern, and just to give you
some background on the economic development fund, since fiscal year '03, we've allocated or
set aside about 743 thousand dollars. We've committed 499 thousand to 9 projects, 75 thousand
that's going to come back, and we've got 18 projects, about half of them are approved. So we're
averaging about 100 thousand dollars a year in commitments, and about 55 thousand dollars a
project, but if you take out the two largest, Lear Corporation and LOPREX, about 35 grand for
each project. So I guess what I'm getting at is, we're not spending the money as fast as it's
coming in, and one way to alleviate that is to look at the 9% policy and just take the money
from CDBG which is what's actually eligible and that should do it in the short term. And what
we can always do, I know we've had some concerns, I've talked to a couple people, is, we can
review this annually, it's something that can always be changed, but right now we feel we have
a lot of money sitting there, and not enough projects coming in.
And in terms of the HUD, when you say HUD looks at timeliness, is there, could, would there
be negative ramifications to our block grant if, our total amount that we get, if?
Certainly. That's the worst case scenario.
Ok. But that's something that could happen.
Mmm hmm.
It seems there are two, two concerns two problems or perhaps better said, concerns. One is that
the Commission for CDBG and HOME funds has decreasing amounts coming in every year, so
they have decreasing amounts to provide for what I would presume is at least steady if not
increasing need. The second is the amount of funds that are accumulating in the economic
development fund. I'm wondering if we can't put a lid, do we need to have more than say 150
or 200 thousand in that, put a cap on it and just say when it is there then we no longer need an
influx of the CDBG funds, rather than change the formula, we would leave the formula the
same but indicate when it gets to whatever is determined to be needed, 150 thousand or 200
thousand there. When it gets to that, then we don't take any that year.
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O'Donnell: Can't hear.
Champion: Sounds good.
Correia: That sounds, that, I like the idea. The one thing though is that I think that, whatever the formula
is or whatever, I think we need to link whatever it is only to the CDBG allocation just in our
policies. Because when we say 9% for economic development, it should be clear that we're, or
whatever percentage it is or whatever it is, it should be clear that it's coming out of the CDBG
portion, because HOME funds can't be used.
Champion: But we already know that. It's already a fact.
Correia: Right I know but the way it's written, the way it's practiced is 9% of the total allocation, so the
practice is how much, what percent has come out if you just?
Long: Just CDBG?
Correia: Yeah.
Long: ]5%.
Correia: Ok. So whatever it is, as long as we.
Champion: Ifwe had a limit, an economic limit, 250 thousand or whatever, 250, whatever it's going to be,
then all that becomes mute, because we wouldn't be using it until we needed it.
Bailey: Not for awhile.
Vanderhoef: It would be a backfill, to take us back up to that point, whatever that percent was.
Bai]ey: And with yearly, in examining it yearly, we can see how these new policies that we're trying to
put in place would effect that, because we are trying to approach it a little bit differently with
some new policies. So that might be a way to approach it, if we review this on an annual basis.
Vanderhoef: We could try it for a year and see where we are one year from now, and just not touch the
percentages.
Champion: I'd leave the percentages alone but put a cap on it.
Vanderhoef: Mm hmm. Yeah. Leave the percentages alone.
Bailey: So 9% of CDBG though, so we're not gonna get the same.
Vanderhoef: I'm not saying that, I'mjust.
Bailey: The policy.
Long: 9% of, I'm sorry.
Bai]ey: 9% of the allocation, total.
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Vanderhoef: At this point, until we see how we work with this.
Elliott: Regenia, as Chair of the
Correia: Potentially though the percentage ofCDB - I'm sorry to interrupt you.
E]liott: I bet you aren't, really.
Correia: Yes I am sorry.
Elliott: Go ahead.
Correia: Urn. Because it's not, it's taking, I don't know, it seems like it's not acknowledging, whatever
the percentage is, we should say 15%, we should go, we should use what's really happening.
What's really happening is we're taking ]5% ofCDBG because that's the money that can be
used for economic development.
Long: That's correct. HUD only allows us to use CDBG funds for, so, if you're going to say, that's a
good point. It's really ]5%.
Correia: I mean, we could say] 5% with the cap, or we could say 9% with the, but I just think it should
be clear so we're not, I think that becomes a confusing thing.
Bailey: Who's confused?
Correia: Just, I think it's a confusing thing generally about what we mean when we say.
Bailey: I mean, I think it's real clear. We take 9% of the total allocation.
Champion: (can't hear)
Correia: No, I know, but
Bailey: I mean, I think the policy is clear. All right.
Correia: I guess the impact on the fund isn't clear then.
Champion: Oh yes it is.
Correia: Well, to us, but to the community.
Long: It's something we explain every year, we have to explain every year.
Bailey: To whom?
Long: To applicants. When asking what the breakdown's going to be.
Elliott: I guess to me, with taxes and other things, we sayan entity pays so much taxes. How that's
broken up and from which funds it might be taken is up to them, so I guess I, to me, the concern
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I have, and my question Regenia was gonna be, as Chair of that Committee, it seems to me that
I can't imagine why we'd every need more than 200 thousand dollars in that fund. It, the
requests aren't that sizable.
Bailey: It would be nice to have some successes with that program.
Elliott: Yeah.
Bailey: I think that that's what we haven't necessarily experienced. A lot of applications and then a lot
of success and feasibility with the projects that have come forward, that's why we're getting
money back, so.
Vanderhoef: Just a little side question. Has the Commission had any discussion about economic development
funds and how the fed rules are written? Because they're, we keep fighting at the federal level
to try and maintain those funds, but I don't hear much conversation at the federal level about
changing these rules and what some of the barriers are to using it for economic development. So
it that is a concern of the Cotnmission, then I think I would personally like to receive that, that
when 1 go to Washington I can say, you know, we have set aside, but there are some barriers
there that are keeping some of the folks from applying for these dollars.
Correia: Well shouldn't that come from the Economic Development Committee, because the Housing
Commission doesn't administer the economic development funds, so I mean, I think it's.
Well, but it's both. Because you lobby for it in a total package.
Correia: No I understand that, but if we've taken funds from the purview ofthe Housing Commission to
the Economic Development Committee, then I think the Economic Development Committee is
charged with those issues of what are the constraints, and then the Housing Commission is
charged with the housing dollars and the public services and facilities pieces of it, because that's
what we've told them we want them to do.
Champion: Um, maybe we could just settle this by tonight by saying we're going to limit economic
development funds to 250 thousand.
Bailey: A pool of250 thousand.
Vanderhoef: A pool of250.
Bailey: And then the allocation will continue to be what percent?
Vanderhoef: And not change it, that it will be backfilled.
Champion: To rebuild the fund if we use it, whatever that percentage is going to be, but the maximum of
9%.
Correia: I'd like to be, and I'd like to just argue this point one more time. I like to be transparent, I mean,
I think it's just being transparent.
Champion: You are being very transparent.
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Correia:
I am, but I'mjust, in terms of our policies, I think that's our responsibility to the public, to be
transparent about what, if 15%, or, or the difference to move the pool up to 150 thousand
dollars, either or, but not say 9% of the total allocation when only the CDBG can be used for
economic development. It seems like we're just purposefully being unclear about it.
Bailey:
I don't understand what's not clear. It's a calculation.
Champion:
It's a total.
Bailey:
It's a way we get the number, and yes, we pull it from CDBG.
Correia:
Well then I think we're,
Franklin:
I would like to make a pitch for Amy's position.
(laughter)
Correia: Karin.
Franklin: Because it is confusing and as people change, either in the positions or on HCDC or the public,
there is no logic to the 9% of the total allocation, since you can't use part ofthat allocation for
economic development. If you just say a percent ofCDBG, whatever that percent is, there is
logic to it, because that's the money that you use for economic development. You can not use
HOME funds for economic development.
Bailey: Well yeah. I think we all understand that. Ijust wasn't hearing the interest in doing it
differently.
Vanderhoef: If they want to convert it to 15%, and not change the percent.
Correia: That's what I'm saying! Say 15% ofCDBG. That's what I said!
Bailey: Fine. Fine. Fine.
Franklin: It's just so that it makes sense to people once we go on and forget this conversation. Because
we've had this confusion over the last couple of years. And so ifit were 15% ofCDBG, with a
cap of what? 250 thousand, then this coming fiscal year we will have no percentage ofCDBG
that will go to economic development because we've already got that money in the fund.
Champion: Correct.
Vanderhoef: Well not quite.
Bailey: Not quite.
Vanderhoef: Unless the 75 comes back.
Champion: Well we're gonna get 75.
Franklin: We will. We'll have the 75.
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Vanderhoef: Which project is this?
Bailey: So
Franklin: Loparex.
Bailey: Loparex.
Elliott: I don't, I don't share your concern, but I think we're straining over gnats, so I don't care
Bailey: I don't share the concern either. I think it's a calculation and it's very clear how you get the
calculation, but some people
(cut off - end of tape)
Vanderhoef: A new resolution on that, then? Is that correct?
Atkins: Yes.
Bailey: And then the cap at 250 thousand. Ok? Next issue.
Long: All right. The commission also looked at the CDBG and HOME investment policies, and that
was just at their last meeting. Basically, that sets up the payback terms, as you may be aware.
And, if you want me to go over these, you just did this about a year ago. There's basically two
repayment options for rental projects and three for home-ownership projects. And what we've
been finding, what we found last year, we're going to need a little more flexibility. We've had
some cases, for instance, HACAP, which provides transitional housing for families. The tenants
come in and have no income, and generally during that 24 month period that they're in the
housing, they're working their way to get some income, but they don't have any income. While
they don't have any income, the agency doesn't have much cash to pay us, to pay a loan back.
So they don't fit into any of these, any of our options here for rental, and so they didn't apply
last year, and there's still a huge need out there. There's a couple of other examples, with the
Scattered Site Housing Policy, the increased cost ofland for home ownership projects means
it's, makes it more difficult under one of these three options, especially if you're a for-profit.
You can't do a 20-year, 0% interest; I mean a 30 year 0% interest with monthly payments.
We've had an incredible increase in land costs. The recent Habitat, for instance, the recent
Habitat land acquisition was about 60 thousand. So there are just some recent developments that
have come up and the Commission felt that it would be nice to have a little bit more flexibility.
99% ofthe time we'll stick to these options, but they wanted staff and the Commission to look
at the pro forma, look at the debt coverage ratio, the cash flow and allow for a little bit of
flexibility in those rare circumstances. Right now
Champion: I don't have any objections for more flexibility for non-profits. I do have some problems for
flexibility for for-profits. Can you give me an example where a for-profit would need
some more flexibility? You can make it up.
Long: Ok.
(laughter)
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Bailey: She didn't say real example.
Long: Good. Ah, one example, right now it's 2, prime rate minus 2 points, prime rate is set at about 8
and 1/4, so it would be 6 and 1/4 would be our interest rate. If we had requirements that we
wanted that for-profit to develop affordable housing that had rents that were below the fair
market rent and did not rely on Section 8 tenants, which is something we try to encourage, it
may be the case there that since rents will be lower, I mean, after looking at the cash flow we
may, it may work out that a 5 and 1/4 interest rate would apply. Or a 30-year amortization with
a 15-year balloon.
Champion: Ok.
Correia: And I think, I mean, something that we've started to hear in the community is how can, how can
governments create incentives for, not just non-profits but for-profits to do this type of
development. And they're going, I mean, for-profits pay property taxes on those buildings.
We're not only getting back interest, we're getting back principle and we're getting those
property taxes and we're getting, urn, so I think there are benefits.
Bailey: Other questions or comments?
Vanderhoef: The benefits though that they're getting are the 2 points already.
Correia: I mean, as the prime rate goes up, though, that's.
Bailey: So they're 2 percentage points below prime, is pretty
Champion: I think the example given, ifthere's not enough cash flow to pay it, you get in trouble. But I
always have to think about, I want to see maybe what their profit margin is. I mean if, that's the
problem I have with for-profits, they can make a lot of money on low-income projects.
Bailey: I don't know
Long: Remember. And you would have final approval on all of the projects.
Bailey: I have a question
Vanderhoef: Ok, ok.
Bailey: Go ahead, Dee.
Vanderhoef: Before we get off of Connie's, I'm with Connie on this, that I need to know what percent of
profit they're making and whether it's, it's a combination, because sometimes you have a
developer and an architect at the same and if they're taking 10% on each, which is allowed by
the federal government but is not necessarily what I call market rate in our area, that that's the
profit market. I'd really like to see comparisons on profit margins.
Long: Actually, we
Correia: I think
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Long: Go ahead.
Correia: Go ahead, no.
Champion: Plus tax credits.
Vanderhoef: Yeah.
Long: And that's something the Commission, we are proposing to the Commission next Thursday,
actually. It's called identity of interest, and they're going to have to disclose that in all projects
now.
Champion: Great.
Vanderhoef: Fantastic.
Elliott: That, that I would like, because I'm a firm believer, or I really like public/private partnerships,
when the City and the people in the City benefit, so if somebody makes some money on it but
the City and the people who are in need benefit, that's fine, but I would like to take a very close,
hard look at how much money they're going to make off of it. The safeguards you identify are, I
think, a good thing.
Correia: But we didn't
Bailey: No, I don't (can't hear)
Champion: I think people can make money off something. I don't have any problem with that. That's why I
sell stuff.
Bailey: Yeah. I. I have a question, and maybe it's just my understanding of this. So basically we're
changing these policies to fit some needs of some agencies with the understanding that they're
furthering a goal that we have to get this housing in our community. But I think it's an unusual
sort of approach. Are we saying that nobody else can do the work that they're doing, that's why
we're changing and wanting more flexibility so, for example, HACAP can do this thing because
nobody else is doing it? It's an interesting position for a funder to take to become extremely
flexible for particular agencies. Typically it's a market and there are options for the funder. Ok,
if you can't do it, we'll partner with this group who can.
Long: Mmm hmm. I think we have such a variety of needs and ways to fill those needs that it's really
difficult to put it in just a few different scenarios.
Bailey: But it seems that we're changing our policies because this particular agency can't comply with
the policies. So I'm assuming that that particular agency is fulfilling a need that nobody else is
filling, to meet our objectives of providing more housing. Is that, is that accurate, or?
Long: We have very few housing providers.
Bailey: Ok. Because I just think it's an unusual position, and I want to fully understand why we would
be doing that.
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Vanderhoef: Regenia, I did talk with Tracy this afternoon, that's who I happened to get a hold of, and she
said there had been talk a year ago of another agency applying, but they knew that they would
not be able to fund the full amount, the loan plus the interest, so they didn't apply. And whether
this is true of 2 or 3 agencies that have not applied because they knew that they didn't.
Correia: Well I also. Oh.
Bailey: That's what I'm saying. Typically funders, I, I just have a hard time wrapping my head around
changing this so much. Apparently we're not meeting our goals with the small pool of
providers.
Vanderhoef: I had the same concern.
Correia: Well I think, well, what I
Bailey: Ok. I just wanted to be really clear.
Long: (can't hear)
Correia: But I also think that there are different ways of approaching using this money and being a
funder, and in terms of this is money from the federal government that's supposed to provide
these services and meet these needs. And that, ifthe way we've set up using that funding in the
process isn't meeting the needs because the way the sector is working in that community
doesn't fit, then I think we look at that and ifpart of what we look at is increasing capacity of
the sector
Bailey: Typically, typically agencies change to meet funders' needs, not funders vice versa. And the
question I really have
Correia: Right, but I mean
Bailey: is the ability to repay a loan. I mean, that's an interesting exception.
Elliott: The situa
Correia: And we don't even need to, these could all be grants. I mean, this is money that we get.
Bailey: That's what I'm saying. If we want them to be grants, we should indicate that this is a grant-
making program, not necessarily a loan-making program.
Elliott: But is the concern about the disparity that some people are, are doing projects with loans at say,
5 and 1/4% while other entities might be doing a somewhat similar project with the rate at 6 and
1/2%? If, if you're talking about flexibility, then you're also talking about fairness and equity
and I think if, so long as we can justify it, but I, to me that's difficult. It's a difficult situation
when you're giving a much better financial deal to one entity than to another, and it puts us in a
rather difficult situation. Not impossible, but something of concern.
Vanderhoef: Bob, but Bob, the non-profits have no interest, so they're interest free. So it's a matter of, of
whether they can pay offthe loan, and what we have had as a policy, noting exactly what we
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heard tonight, that CDBG and HOME funds are declining, our policy has been, we want
repayment to keep building our kitty so we can recirculate it within the community. So the
question is, in this transitional housing, whether it's important enough goal for us, because the
transitional people don't have a lot of income when they come into that. And if they are only
forced to pay 30% of their adjusted gross, then that is not gonna cash flow paying the full grant
back. But we can put safeguards on if we have the flexibility. We can do the 30, 40, 50% grant
versus loan and get some of it back and be meeting our goals.
Elliott: But my question is, the equity. As I said, it's not impossible, but it is difficult when you're
giving one person a better deal in the same year than another person or in, say, you're giving to
one entity or one agency at one rate one year and then the next year you're doing something
similar with another agency at a lesser rate, which is.
O'Malley: You're talking about for-profits, specifically, because everybody else has O.
Bailey: You're talking about for-profits, because all the non-profits will have a 0 interest rate.
Elliott: Yeah, yeah, I'm just talking about when you talk about flexibility, ah, I'm not totally against it,
but I'm just saying it puts us is a very difficult position
Bailey: But we're
Vanderhoef: No, it doesn't
Elliott: Because we have to be extremely
Bailey: Wait, wait, Steve,
Elliott: Whenever you treat different entities, people, associations differently, especially financially
Long: Well we're not gonnajust pull it out of a hat. We're gonna have, we'll set up some policies and
have, I imagine debt coverage ratios that will have to fall between a certain range, their rate of
return, net operating income
Bailey: We have to look at the capacity.
Elliott: Mmm hmm.
Long: I mean, we'll have certain parameters that, if you fall within this
Elliott: It's to me, it's a slippery slope. But as I say, I'm not against it, but it's just
Bailey: Bankers do it all the time.
Vanderhoef: It's making, it's, the big difference
Bailey: I mean, your interest rate would be lower than mine.
Champion: Yes. The economic world uses it all the time.
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Bailey: Absolutely. I mean, I think the for-profit world would be quite comfortable with it.
Vanderhoef: And even in the non-profit, if you look at it, if you are targeting certain goals, if you are
targeting rental, that they can have Section 8, for instance, versus rental that doesn't have the
Section 8, and if you're targeting transitional from homelessness, that's a different kind of
group than it is when you are talking about working.
Elliott: I don't disagree with anything. All I'm saying is in government, in the for-profit world, you can
talk about economy of scale, you can talk about a number of things, but in government, when
you treat different entities differently, you'd better be able to explain it.
Correia: Don't we treat different entities?
Elliott: And that's fine.
Bailey: Steve, did you have other comments? I thought I might try to direct some traffic so you could
get in here.
Long: I think I have an understanding.
Bailey: Ok. Other? Do you have anything else you need? Did you track that and follow
Long: I have a pretty good handle. I mean, I'll follow up, obviously, with my interpretation, and there
will be a resolution.
Bailey: The memo.
Champion: We do need some guidelines.
Elliott: What's a sub-recipient?
Long: Person who receives our money. It'sjust a
Elliott: What's the difference between recipient and sub-recipient?
Long: Oh, it's just, HUD terms - HOME funds you have to be called the recipient, CDBG a sub-
recipient.
Elliott: Ok.
Long: I think we may change all that.
Bailey: Ok. Mike, you didn't say anything. Did you have any comments?
O'Donnell: I'm fine. No. I agreed with everybody.
Bailey: Ok. Thanks, Steve. A smart position.
Atkins: Sub-recipient is a guy you send out for sandwiches.
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Elliott:
Correia:
Atkins:
Bailey:
Wilburn:
(laughter)
Good! Now that makes sense.
Ha, ha ha.
That was really bad, wasn't it?
I bet my grandfather would tell a joke like that.
I've had a request for a break.
Elliott: We saw who's up next.
Vanderhoef: This one could last a while.
Wilburn: Ah, can we try 20 'til?
Bailey: Yeah.
Vanderhoef: Sure.
Wilburn: 20 'til. All right.
Assemblv Uses - Fire Safety
Wilburn:
Atkins:
Champion:
Atkins:
Champion:
Assembly uses - fire safety.
Assembly uses. As you know we've been working with a number of folks with respect to
occupancies, fire safety, and all those issues associated with our eating and drinking
establishments. Before we get involved in a new program, I want to run the idea by you,
because it does require a great deal of staff work and the simple bottom line is that we would
like to propose initiating it in downtown and the near Northside, the Northside commercial area,
requiring all eating and drinking establishments to install fire safety equipment, particularly
sprinklers, alarms, notably a voice alarm. Our thinking is that we will eventually have to do it
Citywide, but we would start in the downtown. It's a very high-risk area, the sharing of
common walls, the fact that it has a number of intangibles, notably it's historical significance to
our community. We're planning on actually putting together a proposal in the budget where we
would actually share in the costs, because water lines would have to be run to some of these
establishments. We estimate there to be about 30 of them, eating and drinking establishments.
There's a lot of work involved, and before we make that step, I wanted to get at least a reaction
from you.
My reaction would be that I'm amazed that we haven't done it before with major remodeling.
Ok.
I mean, that blows my mind. When we have businesses, buildings have major renovations, that
we have not required sprinkler systems. To require it to be retrofitted could be very, very
expensive.
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Atkins:
Champion:
Atkins:
Champion:
Atkins:
Champion:
Atkins:
Champion:
Atkins:
O'Donnell:
Atkins:
Boothroy:
Atkins:
Elliott:
Atkins:
O'Donnell:
Champion:
Atkins:
Yes. We agree. We understand that.
But I certainly, I would have no problem supporting any major renovation, I don't know how
you define that, would have to have a, a sprinkler system is what you're talking about.
Sprinkler system and an alarm system, Connie, and there will be some requirements where, in a
few instances, the exit pattern is not wide enough. Those would have to be dealt with. But I
think the primary, the big-ticket item would be a sprinkler system and a voice alarm system. As
I had it explained to me, you can go in one of those bars or restaurants on a Saturday night when
it's really cooking and there's lots of noise. They tumed on the alarm and you couldn't hear it.
No, I believe it.
That's where the music has to shut down, it has to be wired to accommodate that kind of a.
I don't know what else you do. To demand it, it's so expensive. I mean, we have one in our
building, and we've always had one, but they put a new one in, oh, maybe 10 years ago,
Well, we were thinking that it would be phased. If you give us a plan, you can have you know,
say 5 years to get it done. I, we went so far as, among staff members discussing having the City
participate, particularly running, because you have to have a larger water line. Some businesses
have already done it.
Oh, I know.
Yeah.
Do we have any idea of the cost?
Oh, you know, Mike, I would say a good sprinkler system in a building of just reasonable size is
25 to 30 thousand dollars, pretty easy. Doug?
!think 25.
Ok. 25. Doug is saying 25.
And might that vary significantly depending on the building, the age, the construct.
Yes. Absolutely.
It does.
And our, it depends if it's every had a sprinkler system. They can use, frequently, they can use
the same piping.
Yes, they can, but there will still be others that will have to have a larger line run into. You
know, you'll have a normal service connection, maybe an inch or something, and you have to
have a larger connection to get the pressure.
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Champion: I mean, it's a major expense and I think it should be done, I mean, I think it should be done in
all major renovations. I don't know how you'd go up to some small business and say you've got
to spend 25 thousand.
Bailey: Is there some kind oflow interest loan program we could develop?
Champion: Oh, well.
Atkins: That's what we were thinking about. We were thinking about that. That's part of our thinking.
Bailey: Thinking we could do that, yeah, economic development could, I mean, I don't know.
Correia: Is it something that, so you're talking about, when you were talking about the Northside,
restaurants like Devotay or Linn Street, not noisy, not that big
Bailey: Motley Cow.
Correia: Motley Cow. I mean, is that the type of business that we think there are safety?
Atkins: We define assembly, we call it assembly uses, and those are banquet halls, nightclubs,
restaurants, taverns, bars.
Correia: Right. No, I know, but I mean, just, Devotay and Motley Cow certainly, I would
Atkins: They still have all of the cooking gear in the kitchen.
Bailey: There are 15 people in one of those restaurants.
Elliott: But it
Atkins: We could set a, we could have some threshold
Bailey: I'm not saying you shouldn't, I mean, I don't know, but that just
Atkins: Some threshold with respect to occupancies.
Vanderhoef: That's what I was thinking.
Correia: And when you were talking about the noise, I mean I totally see
Champion: Well that's in alarms, that's not sprinkler
Boothroy: That's aligned with the sprinkler system, the threshold being proposed is an occupancy of 100,
so some of the examples you gave me, you just gave, would not require a sprinkler system.
Champion: Oh.
Bailey: Oh. Do we have, so what, so what establishments in the North Market Square have that level of
occupancy? Pagliais'?
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Boothroy: Possibly Pa - I don't know without getting numbers, but Pagliais' would be one of the larger
restaurants.
Bailey: Yeah.
Vanderhoef: Hamburg Inn wouldn't
Boothroy: I don't think, if Hamburg, probably not, 50 maybe.
Bailey: With the bar beside it. What's the bar beside it?
Boothroy: Most of those higher occupancy uses are really more located in the Plaza area in around, what
we think of as downtown. But the same type of architecture, old buildings, compact
construction, even if they were
Bailey: Shared walls.
Boothroy: Like Pagliais' going in or existing, we would want to look at that anyway in terms of
Elliott: You said 100.
Boothroy: There's a residential above the I't floor on that particular use. They have ovens. Ah, not every
business would be required to have an alarm system. It all depends on the occupancy and
Elliott: Number again?
Boothroy: It's based on a number
Elliott: No, but what is that number, again?
Boothroy: I said 100.
Elliott: 100. Ok. Yeah.
Boothroy: And that, what we're proposing, that's a change. Presently, the present code it says 300.
Elliott: And the fire department sets that number?
Boothroy: Huh?
Elliott: The fire department sets that number?
Boothroy: That's, they have set that number, and the
Elliott: Yeah. In other words, it's set by the fire department.
Boothroy: Right. The 2006 code, which will be going into effect in July, will be recommending 100, so
we're suggesting that if we go forward with the amendments at this time, we go ahead and
adopt that at this time, before the July I" enactment.
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Elliott: And you're talking about not when any project is done, but a time frame within which it must
be done for everyone that meets that, that category.
Atkins: Yes. Correct.
Elliott: And the City would have some sort of investment in that.
Atkins: That was suggested. We think it's a good idea. How it would work, Bob, [don't know that yet.
That's, we, more staff work has to be done.
Bailey: That cuts your insurance.
Champion: Oh, oh, yeah.
Vanderhoef: What strikes me is that we've got to have, if we go with this kind of approach, we have to have
a balance, then, betwixt the occupancy and the demand for money over if we put a 5 year. So,
my thinking is that we stage it and put the largest occupancies in, say, group I. The next larger
will be group 2.
Atkins: That would be an implementation schedule, and I'd want to check with Eleanor on the legalities
of whether we can do it that way.
Vanderhoef: Yeah.
Atkins: [fwe can, [mean, that's your higher risk. The bigger, the higher occupancy, larger risk.
Vanderhoef: What, what bothers me about the higher
Champion: (can't hear)
Bailey: Hrnmm?
Vanderhoef: What bothers me about the higher occupancies is that, given that it's in downtown, and you've
got front and back exit, and that's it.
Atkins: That's it.
Vanderhoef: And we've got more people trying to get out to exits from the big ones as well as front and back
exit for the small ones. So it think the bigger risk that we're trying to accommodate are the
biggest units.
Champion: The other problem with downtown, of course we all know this, is the walls are also
interconnected.
Bailey: Right. You could lose a block.
Champion: That, and some, you could lose a block, and plus, some of those buildings, the apartments
stretch over 2 or 3 buildings, so there really is no firewall or anything between those. And
plumbing, like, the plumbing for the building next to me is in my basement in the. [t'sjust, it's
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Wilburn:
Baeth:
Wilburn:
Champion:
Bailey:
Atkins:
Bailey:
Boothroy:
O'Donnell:
Boothroy:
Atkins:
Bailey:
Atkins:
Bailey:
Boothroy:
Champion:
been remodeled so many times, and I'm amazed we haven't had a disastrous fire with those
walls.
I think, a couple things that came to mind for me is the unfortunate fires that have been,
especially in the downtown area, we've been very fortunate to not have that happen.
Very fortunate.
And, you know, it, it's probably worth our while to not rely on fortune and, you know, the
second thing that comes to mind is that we, you know, anything we can do for fire prevention
helps mitigate, you know, the duration. You know, we can't afford, without some drastic cuts in
personnel, for those 9 extra fire fighters, so anything you can try and do to add fire suppression,
fire prevention, is going to be worth it.
I'd add one more thing, though. I would add that no matter what the building is used for, that
major renovation has to include fire prevention or fire, what do you call it?
And then when do we expect to move this outside of the downtown Northside?
We don't know.
I mean, if it's a priority for high assembly buildings, it should be a priority, I would think, right?
I think that the ordinance would be applicable to all, but the resources that we would put
forward would be directed to the downtown. Other occupancy, other places could come onboard
during that time period, but, but, we only have, I mean, we would work with people in an
aggressive fashion to try to make it possible, to make it happen, and that's what we're kind of
talking about with the targeting.
Do we know how many people down, how many businesses downtown, are presently not
sprinkled? Do we know that?
Ah, we can get that number, we could have it for you. I don't know the exact number. There are
quite a few that aren't that would be required and part of what will have to be done, as Steve has
mentioned, is that the waterlines will have to be upgraded, and that's going to take some time.
That may be
That'll be ours.
That may be something we could do.
Ok.
For example, like the Plaza. If, instead of having 10 different businesses tear it up at 10
different times, we may want to do a capital project where we tear it up, fix it all, put the right,
and then go back and put the bricks back in place so it's only one time, one disruption, and then
somehow charge that back.
Well work it out. I think it's long overdue.
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Bailey: What time, what time period are we looking?
Correia: (can't hear)
Atkins: We don't know. We're just
Vanderhoef: I have another suggestion
Atkins: Hold on, Steve. Amy, you had something?
Correia: Yeah. I said, so, any new, you know, a new restaurant gets built, they have to put sprinklers in.
Atkins: New construction.
Correia: Ok. And then anytime, if a restaurant is renovated, is that part of the building code? Does that?
Boothroy: Ah, for example, the, I can't remember the name of the one that's by, ah, your business, above
it, right next door to it, used to be the Land's Inn?
Correia: Summit.
Boothroy: Summit. Now that is fully compliant. They have an alarm system.
Champion: That's the only way they're compliant.
(laughter)
Correia:
Wilburn:
Boothroy:
Correia:
Boothroy:
Correia:
Boothroy:
So they have sprinklers.
Anyway. Go ahead, Doug.
I don't know how to use that word now. They are, they are sprinkled, they have an alarm
system, and they meet the code, because they were required to upgrade the entire thing because
it was a change of use. They went from a retail to a, a eating and drinking establishment.
Ok.
Some of the other businesses that are downtown have been in place, eating and drinking, like
Joe's and The Airliner and One Eyed Jake's have been in there a long, long time. You know,
how they were established, what the compliance at that point in time was, we haven't looked at.
They've just been accepted, and this would require them to go back and look at their fire
protection systems and bring them up to current standards.
And Joe's was recently renovated, a few, cause they had a - are they sprinkled now, or no?
No, I don't believe, no they're not sprinkled. The Sports Column, I believe the Sports Column
just recently sprinkled, and they had a system in place, a partial system in place and so they
didn't have to upgrade the water.
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Champion: The Airliner might.
Bailey: And can we prioritize roll-in for below grade above grade? I mean, is that also a concern?
Because they have one exit.
Boothroy: We believe, in talking to the fire department, HIS and talking about this, believe that if they
fully comply with these standards that's no longer an issue.
Bailey: Right. I get that. But I mean, those, along with Dee's comment about larger, it would be, as we
roll this out, larger should be the priority. I also think we should add that abovelbelow.
Boothroy: Oh I see what you mean.
Elliott: I agree, I agree Regenia. I think that in addition to those kinds of places
Bailey: If we can
Wilburn: Bob, Bob - I'm sorry. Dee had. If it's a new thing, Bob, Dee, then Bob.
Vanderhoef: Ok. The other thing that, even if there isn't a large renovation, shall we say, anytime the liquor
license holder changes for an establishment, whether it keeps the same name or gets a new
name.
Atkins: Ok. The only difficulty I have is that the liquor license holder and the owner of the building
may be two different people.
Boothroy: Yeah. I'm not sure we can regulate based on ownership ofthe liquor license. I-
Atkins: Yeah. I mean, we'll look at that, but I think that might be difficult, Dee.
O'Donnell: Well that's gonna have to go to the building (can't hear)
Vanderhoef: If it's a new business, then.
Atkins: Yeah. I understand your point. I'mjust not sure we can do it.
Boothroy: We would take this to the Board of Appeals for their December meeting. They'd come back to
the Council probably in January, and an ordinance format, and then you'd see the particulars,
the specifics, how it would be rolled out, and then you could react to that.
Bailey: Have you talked to? Oh, I'm sorry.
Wilburn: Bob, go ahead.
Boothroy: No, we haven't talked to the Board of Appeals yet.
Elliott: I agree with Regenia's point that even if it is not one of your designated assembly spaces, that
when there are places, especially that have an area below ground, even above ground, they can
jump out a window at least, but below ground, I was in an area that was not an eating drinking
place below ground and there were many people there. And as I looked around, as I do when
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Bailey:
Atkins:
Bailey:
Boothroy:
Bailey:
Boothroy:
Bailey:
Boothroy:
Bailey:
Boothroy:
Bailey:
Boothroy:
O'Donnell:
Boothroy:
O'Donnell:
Atkins:
I'm in a hotel, occasionally, I thought, what would happen if a fire broke out here? I think, look
at especially any place that has people gathering below ground.
Have we talked to
Excuse me. Go.
Business owners about this, potential of you?
When we, when this, we had a discussion earlier this fall about occupancy and there was a
number of owners downtown. Tim met with a number, Tim Hennes, the senior building
inspector, met with Lea and also a number of other bar owners. We passed out the sections of
the code we thought we would be recommending, the ones we're talking about tonight, to the
architects that were working with a number of the bars. We'd already had, also had
conversations with quite a few of the businesses downtown. Not all of them, but a majority of
them. So what we're going to be suggestion, suggesting, will not be a surprise. There may still
be concerns, but it will not be a surprise.
Ok. So those that would.
They know something's coming.
And but those that were doing some renovations for occupancy had the oppor - I mean, perhaps
their architects had seen this sort 01 thing and if they could have put it in at that time they might
have.
I think the Sports Column is an example where they went ahead and put the sprinkler system in,
knowing that this was possibly coming down.
Ok.
It's also a really good idea. For safety ofthe clients.
Oh yeah.
And so, ah, their costs would have been a little less than some other places, because they
already had the properly sized waterlines going into the building, but, but it's still expensive,
even when you do it that way.
Now the price of safety is incredibly high.
It only takes one death.
It only takes one accident, but, you know, 30 to 35 thousand dollars is gonna be a tremendous
blow to some of these businesses downtown. I'm gonna be interested to see what portion the
City is going to cover.
The business, you know, enjoys the benefit of it. And the cost, the landlord does too. I mean,
I've gotta have, that's got to effect their insurance, and we're looking at it obviously on a
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grander scale. I mean, how critical is down, everybody has an opinion on downtown. We want
to make sure that it's something we keep around for a long time so we can
Elliott: I would sure like to see a thought about low-cost loans or something to help people with this.
Atkins: And we're fine with that, Bob. We discussed that, yeah.
Bailey: I agree.
Vanderhoef: Ok. Tell me. Do you envision part of these City costs to come from the water utility funding, or
all from G.O.?
Atkins: [fwe're going to do water lines, it would probably be water revenue or water revenue reserves.
Vanderhoef: Or a combination?
Atkins: Yeah, I don't think this is gonna be a huge ticket item. And I've said that a variety
Bailey: Famous last words.
Atkins: I deny I said that. But our water fund is healthy, and I believe we can build a program around
the use of water moneys. Now, payment of the sprinkler system, I think you have to look to the
property owner for that.
Vanderhoef: Oh, yeah.
Atkins: I think getting the water to them, I think we can put a program together to do that.
Vanderhoef: And putting the street back.
Atkins: And putting the street back and making it look good, yeah.
Vanderhoef: We'll all cover water.
Atkins: We just want to know if there's a reasonable consensus, because as you already know, there's a
number of issues.
Champion: I'll take the heat for it.
Atkins: Ok.
Correia: Oh good.
Bailey: All of it? For all of it?
Atkins: We're gonna press ahead. Based upon what I hear tonight, we're going to press ahead, and we'll
get your program.
Elliott: I would, I would, the last question I would ask, is there going to be anything else along this line,
because I was in one place
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Atkins:
Elliott:
Atkins:
Elliott:
Atkins:
Wilburn:
Elliott:
A good point.
where the person had done some remodeling to meet the occupancy rules, and would that have
been differently had that person known this was coming, and I think if there's anything else like
this coming, I'd certainly like to know it know.
We don't take it light - we hear you. I understand your point.
Ok. Good.
Thanks, Doug. Ok. We're gonna, we'll put something together for you.
All right. Thanks.
Worth the break.
Budl!et Priorities
Wilburn:
Atkins:
Wilburn:
Atkins:
Champion:
Atkins:
Bailey:
Atkins:
Bailey:
Budget priorities. At the end of our last work session we had talked about that list in our last
info packet, that was from the goal setting session of January 24th. We had talked about looking
at any of the items that a majority of Council wanted to try to do that had budget implications,
to bring those forward along with feedback from staff and Steve as to whether it's something
that's more easily done or significant changes or, if, in their opinion, could not be done without
major changes. Right away, just to, I suppose, get us going, the fire station is something that
continues to keep coming up. Steve had, he had worked on a chart that just kind of showed the
breakdown of employees funded out of our general fund.
That thing I showed you?
Yeah, yeah. If you could get that out, just as kind ofa food for though thing, if that's something
that a majority want to propose, then you can take a look at who's funded out of the general
fund, and.
Ross and I were talking about it one day and I had scribbled down the implications on the
general fund and if you just give me a minute.
Is it too late to ask any chance of, what kind of growth we're gonna have? I know it's an
This budget will be difficult because it is a non reassessment year, and so we will, if we grow 2
to 3%, we should feel real good about that. Next year will be a reassessment year, and that's
how it goes.
And then rollback it at 44?
The rollback dropped very little, very little.
So far.
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Atkins: So many of the numbers that we used in adopting the last 3 year plan, particularly from the
revenue side, look pretty good for us.
Wilburn: And that's residential rolled back.
Atkins: That's a residential roll back.
Wilburn: And was there any change in whether there's commercial or?
Atkins: We haven't heard anything on that. I'm doubting it ifthere's little move in the residential
Wilburn: What were you gonna say, Regenia?
Bailey: I thought the commercial moved up fractions of percentage points, but it's still under 100%.
Vanderhoef: It moved up. I read that some place too.
Bailey: I read that, yeah.
Elliott: 99 something, some
Bailey: But it's up from its last year by fractions. Yeab.
Vanderhoef: Tenths of a point.
Wilburn: This is a, We certainly don't have to start with this particular item. Additional fire fighter and/or
police, but it would be a big ticket item, and I believe we've had discussions in the past that that
would be a significant policy shift, and so that's why I, my preference would be to just go ahead
and discuss this from the get-go and we can make a decision if any direct, change in direction is
going to happen and then We can move on through the rest of our discussion. Can you get non-
stinky markets next time, Steve?
Correia: I know. I can't believe you can smell them all the way over here.
Bailey: Yeah. Thank you. I thought I was just the only one who was like oh, gosh. Get those kind that
smell like fruit.
Elliott: I presume there's some meaning to this.
Champion: What is it?
Bailey: It's
Vanderhoef: Budget dollars.
Elliott: Are we waiting, Ross, until he's done?
Wilburn: Yeah. Yeah.
Correia: Staff - numbers of staff.
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Atkins:
Bailey:
Wilburn:
Bailey:
Champion:
Atkins:
Champion:
Atkins:
Dilkes:
Atkins:
Champion:
Atkins:
Champion:
Atkins:
Champion:
Atkins:
Champion:
Atkins:
Champion:
What I did, when Ross and I were talking about this, I was trying to find out what the impact
would be on the general fund.
Push the chart over. This way. The whole chart. Not just angle it.
There we go.
There's a podium.
It looks like algebra.
Probably is a little bit of that. There are 380 positions in the general fund. Now, making the
assumption that if we're gonna add somewhere, what the implications might be, I took out 60
for fire, because you're not gonna reduce them further. These are in case of program reductions.
I see. Ok. Now I get it.
I took out 100, that's the police department, I'm assuming you weren't going to reduce them
either, so now we're down to 220 positions in the general fund. You just expanded transit. I
couldn't understand, imagine why you'd want to reduce transit, so now I'm at 170. The Library
is 45 positions - down to 125. Parks and Recreation is 45 positions - that's 80. Finance is about
35 and HIS, which is self-funded, is 15. We have 30 positions left to fund - the Senior Center,
Planning, City Attorney, City Manager, Human Rights, Human Resources and the City Council.
What I was trying to point out
City Clerk.
And City Clerk, did I say City Clerk, or didn't say City Clerk? I meant to say City Clerk. A
point that I was trying to make is that there's just, unless you're really going to cut something or
consequence to fund 10 new positions, at the minimum, it's going to be really hard.
What about the Transit Center? How much money is that going to produce for Transit?
Oh we're expecting some additional income, yeah. We'll have that answer for you when we do
the budget.
I mean is it going to be enough
Because we expanded two routes.
Right, but that's already covered. We're already paid for that.
That's done, that's done. That's correct.
So, but the money for the Transit Center goes to Transit, right?
Right. You could not use it to hire Police and Fire.
But we could take money from Transit out of our general fund.
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Correia: Mrnm hmm.
Bailey: She's buying 50 employees with Transit money.
Correia: Or some. Nine.
Champion: Not 50 (can't hear)
Vanderhoef: We have to pay off the bonds first. So we're not recouping a lot of dollars at this point.
Atkins: I think I understand your point. I'd have to think about it. Because while it's in the general fund
we have to record that because it's federal grant money.
Champion: A whole lot of different things.
Atkins: Yeah, yeah. There's a lot of different things.
Champion: But we do subsidize the Transit system out of general fund.
Atkins: Oh, yes, substantially. Yes.
Champion: And it might be possible to switch some of those funds - I don't know if it would be enough-
but to help us get towards some firemen. I know we don't have any idea how much money it's
going to produce, but it should produce at least enough to take out, so we could stop our Transit,
our general fund revenue.
Atkins: Oh, no, that wouldn't be that much. I think Court Street would amount to maybe 200 thousand
dollars annually. Annually.
Champion: Oh.
Atkins: Kevin, you're nodding your head. Is that about right?
Vanderhoef: Above?
Bailey: So what's wrong with it if it's not making 200?
Vanderhoef: That's above and beyond paying back the bonds?
O'Malley: That does not include the bonds.
Atkins: That does not include the bonds.
Vanderhoef: Yeah.
Atkins: It will come later on.
O'Malley: You'll be lucky to make 150 thousand off of Court Street.
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Bailey: Why? What's the problem with it?
Atkins: Ok. So you can hire 2 fire fighters.
?: It's not doing its job.
O'Donnell: Steve, what if
Vanderhoef: So we pay it off.
O'Donnell: We've got 60 firemen right now.
Bailey: Fire fighters.
Atkins: Ah, we have 58.
Bailey: Keep trying.
Atkins: Yeah. There's a secretarial position.
O'Donnell: And where does that stand with the community, approximately our size?
Atkins: Oh we have a small department. There's no doubt.
O'Donnell: How small? Is there, I read once a percentage per 10 thousand.
Atkins: I gave you a chart.
Bailey: We had a chart last year.
Elliott: I looked, I have that data that Steve gave to me, and there are, I believe, of 15 cities in 5
neighboring Midwestern states, and in number of firefighters per thousand people, and these
cities, I talked with Steve, and they were selected on the basis of their population so that they're
of similar size to Iowa City. Number of firefighters per thousand, we are dead last. Number of
police, we're dead last, number of firefighters we're next to last, one of the two of those. We are
either last or next to last in both of those.
Atkins: Now the number, don't get too hung up with number. The issue with fire is response times, that
means station location. What Bob was talking about was the chart I gave to you almost a year
ago using those, it was 14 cities. Average, and that's what you're asking for, firefighters was 86
and we're, at this time we're at 56. I said 58.
Elliott: And you talked about coverage
(cut off - end oftape)
Atkins:
We have 25 square miles, the average is 30 square miles, and the average is 4.6 stations per city.
So there's, I hope, we've never said we don't have a small department.
Bailey:
So, there's another way to go, right?
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Atkins: Yeah.
Bailey: You can cut, or you can raise taxes.
Atkins: Well the $8.10 limit is, we're already done.
Correia: But no, we cut last year.
Atkins: You didn't, the $8.10 is still the $8.10.
Bailey: We didn't cut the $8.10, but what about the emergency, I mean the
Vanderhoef: You cut, because the assessments came in so high.
Atkins: You could add the emergency levy, yeah. Yes we did.
Champion: That's separate.
Bailey: I know, but I mean, it's a way to, I mean.
Elliott: Last year the tax rate remained the same I believe and the assessment increased 18% last year,
wasn't it? Assessed value?
Correia: I mean, I'm interested in
Atkins: I don't remember what it was. It was a really good year. It was a good year.
Bailey: But we could do that, right?
Correia: We could.
Atkins: You could use that. Could you give me an estimate, Kevin, real quick, on what 27 cents will
generate for us?
O'Malley: About 550 thousand dollars.
Bailey: Pretty close.
Atkins: Ok. So it's shorter than payroll.
Elliott: Steve, I have a question. You said last week that to person the new fire station would take 10
people.
Atkins: 10 people.
Elliott: A year ago we said 9.
Atkins: Yeah.
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Elliott: What's with the additional person?
Atkins: Ah, just simply refining the numbers. 9 means no down time at all. Zero. No vacation, no sick,
no nothing. It takes 3 people, we put 3 people, it would be a one piece of equipment and we put
3 people on a piece of equipment. That's why we have the 9, yeah. We need to have some
flexibility.
Elliott: Ok.
Atkins: If I said that, I'm sorry, because I spoke too soon and we do have to consider this.
Vanderhoef: The original request was for 12, because they have likewise some problems rotating through,
everybody through vacations and a lot of times.
Wilburn: I think, excuse me Dee, I think the 9 also came up as what's the bare minimum.
Bailey: Mmm hrmn.
Elliott: 3 per shift.
Bailey: To understand the shift, yeah.
Elliott: And I guess my pitch would be that in recent meetings we have told businesses in Iowa City
that they have occupancy levels that they must, that they must adhere to. Whether that hinders
their profits or their ability to stay in business. Tonight we talked about them spending
thousands of dollars for safety purposes. And we're saying that the City says you will do it, and
it you can't do it you can't be in business. And now, I would hope the City is saying that public
safety is our number I priority, and we will do what it takes to meet our number I priority.
Wilburn: And so, since you're looking, maybe, I don't want to go with Steve's assumptions. He was
making some assumptions as to which departments we would not cut. Which of those 30, those
30 remaining, for the size of each of the departments, and ifI'm remembering right, it's a
significant reduction in services. So that's a policy decision. So which services are you willing
to do without by cutting from those 30? Unless like I said, you'd be willing to cut other.
Bailey: Or raise taxes.
Correia: Well I, what I'm wondering is, can Ijust say something?
Elliott: Sure! He asked me a question and I'll answer it when
Correia: Just because I have, if we have this emergency levy, because you're saying that it's going to
cost something, it's going to cost something to the City, it's going to cost something to the
owners to create safety. If we use the emergency levy to get 550 thousand dollars, if, if we have
up to 150 thousand from Court Street to transfer some of those Transit positions into Court
Street funds and transfer those out of the general fund into this, it seems like we may have the
funding we need. I'm not hearing -
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Atkins:
Correia:
Champion:
Correia:
(laughter)
Champion:
Correia:
Atkins:
Correia:
Atkins:
Bailey:
Atkins:
Champion:
Atkins:
Champion:
Atkins:
Champion:
Atkins:
Champion:
Bailey:
Atkins:
Correia:
Atkins:
The only thing I have trouble with on, and what you said is correct, is that we funded 2 routes
with federal money. In three years, you're going to have to make, 3 to 4 years, you'll have to
make a call, because the federal money will go away.
Well how about
Well that's 3 or 4 years away.
Yeah.
I won't be here.
We'll have our increased assessment. We should be at.
Well, remember, you have an obligation to collectively bargain, there's no, fortunately the State
can't take any more money away from us because they've taken it all, unless they pass along to
us some of the other property tax reductions.
They have a new legislature.
Yeah.
Yeah. They could take more.
This is called an emergency levy for a reason.
What?
It's meant for emergencies.
Oh.
And do you want to fund a long-term commitment?
No.
And I would just tell you that I'd exercise caution doing that. Because if you gobble that up all
at once, you're forever precluded from doing anything else.
We need it.
That's as high as it can go? Right.
Yeah. That's it. 27 cents, state law.
Was that, what was it at last year before we?
27 cents.
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Correia: It was at 27 cents.
Atkins: The year before we didn't do it.
Bailey: What did we cut last year?
Vanderhoef: When we, we passed a, budget was when we
Bailey: No I know, so
Correia: Had we been at 27 cents, how many years before that?
Atkins: Yes. Oh, 4,5 -not very long. We had not used it.
Vanderhoef: No.3 or 4.
Atkins: It may be even more like 3 or 4. It was fairly recent.
Bailey: Ok. So are there any other options? I mean really. I think we should have all of our options up
there.
Elliott: Well, the other option
Wilburn: You're thinking of raising revenue, is that what you're talking about?
Bailey: Yeah. I mean, yeah.
Elliott: Well, you haven't mentioned anything other than the personnel portion of the budget. Personnel
take up somewhat, 70% of the budget?
Bailey: Yes. I think we should put it up there.
Vanderhoef: I'm ok with that.
Atkins: Oh, easy.
Elliott: Maybe the personnel is gonna have to take up 75% of the budget.
Atkins: Yep.
Elliott: So, in answer to your question, I would not provide you an answer on that now, but if we decide
that public safety is our number I priority, and we decide on that, I'd be happy to sit down and
take the heat. One, is there gonna to have to be something done personnel wise and two, how
can we expand the personnel budget to incorporate some of this also, so we are not limited just
to the personnel budget.
Atkins: Just remember, expanding the personnel budget as a component of the general fund. The
general fund remember, from the tax rate, the levy, is fixed. State law fixes it. You can't levy
eight dollars and II cents; you're gonna levy eight dollars and 10 cents, that's it.
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Vanderhoef: Kevin, can you tell me, sort of round numberish, what one cent sales tax would bring into the
City?
Bailey: See, that can go up there too. That's an option. I'm not sure I agree with it.
Atkins: Sure.
O'Malley: Sorry. I don't have any of those numbers. Steve, do you remember?
Vanderhoef: Any idea? See, that's.
Champion: 5 million.
Atkins: Oh, it was 5 or 6 million dollars. It was a lot of money.
Champion: Maybe we could borrow from Riverside.
Vanderhoef: So, if we had the, even 1/2 a cent kind of thing to put into public safety. That's. That is our one
option for new moneys. I was hoping wind energy would help us a little bit, and that one, we
have to blow harder, guys.
(laughter)
Elliott:
Bailey:
Wilburn:
Elliott:
Champion:
Elliott:
Bailey:
Gone with the wind.
We're doing our best, you can see that tonight.
I guess, I guess my point, Bob, is, you know, you said you're willing to take the heat and I
believe you when you say that. And we've all taken heat for different things in fact. In the last
campaign I think Dee and I took heat for being willing to do sales tax to fund police and fire.
But it's more helpful, for me, and I would suspect for others, to we know that you're willing to
take some heat, but give us something to react to other than to say whatever the cost or you
know. Looking at something like this or saying, well, I mean, the ideas that came out right away
are something to react to. Going back up to .27, that's something to react to. Sales tax - maybe
there's some disagreement, but that's something to react to, so I'm just suggesting.
Sales tax - I'm not even sure if we can do that, even if we could legally, I'm not sure politically
whether it's feasible. I, I assumed when the school situation came around that there's no way
Iowa City is gonna support another one in addition to the school. Now maybe I'm wrong -I'd
like to think I'm wrong, but there may have to be personnel cuts, there may have to be
expanding the personnel budget to take a larger percentage -
What personnel cuts?
of the general budget.
Wait a minute. I want to clarif'y something. Ok. So you don't think there's enough support to do
sales tax for this fire station that you believe has widespread support. So I'm not following that
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we would, that Council potentially or you would be willing to take the heat for something that
you don't even think would get sales tax support?
Elliott: I think politically, that's why I was hoping we could work on the sales tax with the school for a
continued period of time, so that the City could have a part of it. I think politically for the
school is going to go ahead with it. For the City now to come in and say they want a part of it,
the people are gonna
Champion: (can't hear)
Bailey: No. This would be our own.
Elliott: Pardon me?
Bailey: This would be our own tax.
Elliott: Yeah. I think the people politically are not going to support another sales tax.
Bailey: Well, so
Elliott: They're going to say, well why are you spending all this for, for Convention and Visitors'
Bureau, for public art, for trails, for buying the Sand, the Sand Park. Those, those will come up.
Bailey: And what things don't you want, what thing don't you want to do then, to do this other thing?
That's the question, then. I mean, we are mandated by State law to spend a certain amount of
reinvestment in Convention and Visitors' Bureau.
Elliott: If, if the Council says public safety is our number I priority, whether we work it in over a
period of years or whether we just go ahead and do it, then I think the Council has the
responsibility to work with the City Manager. If the Council says public safety is not our
number I priority, then we move forward as we have for the past 4 years or so.
Correia: I think
Bailey: Well what are you willing to do? I mean, you've said that.
Vanderhoef: Right. What cuts will you make elsewhere to get there?
Elliott: I have said there may have to be cuts in personnel. The personnel budget will probably have to
take a larger percentage of the general fund.
Bailey: So what service, what door is gonna be closed in our City? That's what I'm saying. What's your
priority?
Elliott: Regenia, I don't know at this point. We'd have to sit down.
Correia: You have to prioritize, though.
Bailey: That's what tonight was for, right? Am I missing an agenda?
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Wilburn: That's what
Elliott: No. I'm not gonna sit down and say take apart the budget and say what can and can't be done.
Correia: Isn't that our job?
Elliott: If, if we put public safety as a priority, then we have to do that.
Wilburn: And all I'm saying is, if we are not able to generate more revenue to do that, ifit involves a cut,
the cut is significant enough that I believe, and I think enough of us believe that that's a policy
decision. And so we need to make a decision and direct City staff, the' City Manager, to here are
the areas where we think there should be fewer services we need to cut back.
Elliott: And it would be foolish of me to say what specific situations at this point should go and which
should stay. That's what you hire managers for.
Champion: Well, then,
Vanderhoef: There's nothing to react to.
Champion: No.
Bailey: This is a big enough decision. I mean, Ross just said
Wilburn: Policy
Bailey: It's a policy direction.
Elliott: Mmm hmm.
Wilburn: For example, for example if the City Manager were to say, there goes the Human Rights staff.
There's two of them. We have no one to enforce our Human Rights ordinance. That's a policy
decision.
Elliott: Mmm hmm.
Bailey: He doesn't make that. We do.
Wilburn: Yeah. We do. And so
Elliott: And the Manager would come to us with those questions.
Wilburn: And I disagree on that.
Elliott: And there's no reason for him to do that now because we, it has appeared for the last 3 years at
least that the Council is not willing to put that high a priority on it.
Bailey: He doesn't ask questions.
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Wilburn: Let me ask, excuse me Regenia, let me ask the rest of the Council. We've got a little impasse
here about whether it's a policy decision that we initiate and direct staff or staff says here's
where the cuts are coming and we react to it.
O'Donnell: It's got to be - it's a policy decision.
Bailey: And we have to move.
O'Donnell: It's a policy decision and it's made by this Council. And you know Bob, I totally, I totally agree
that we need that 4th fire station as a matter of public safety.
Champion: We all agree.
O'Donnell: And we all agree with that. And I think, to sit and think that we're going to look at this 380
figure and whittle it down tonight is not going to happen. Urn. What, what does have to happen
is, is, our number of firefighters for the size of our community is down substantially. I don't
know how we arrive at it. It's very difficult. It's pretty easy to leave it for another Council, but I
would think we should at least at this point in time, as we do for economic development, start
setting aside money in preparation for this. You know, it just, it just makes good business sense
to do that.
Vanderhoef: Setting aside for capital projects, but setting aside for FTE doesn't work.
Bailey: You can never keep up.
Vanderhoef: Because it's got to be every year, that has to be guaranteed money every single year.
Elliott: And that amount of money increases each year.
Correia: So do we - ok - so do we
O'Donnell: The amount we set aside increases yearly.
Correia: So, so.
Wilburn: That's it - can we go back to the initial question I posed to the rest of the Council about whether
it's a policy decision that we direct, or we have the City Manager, Steve, say here's where the
staff and services are going.
Champion: It's a policy decision.
Vanderhoef: It's a policy decision.
Bailey: Yeah.
Correia: It's policy.
Bailey: And it's up to us to decide.
Elliott: I agree.
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Wilburn:
Elliott:
Wilburn:
Elliott:
Wilburn:
Elliott:
Champion:
Correia:
Elliott:
Champion:
Bailey:
Correia:
Atkins:
Correia:
Atkins:
Correia:
Atkins:
Correia:
Bailey:
Council makes and directs.
Council makes the policy just as we do with every other policy. Council sets the policy, and
management implements the policy.
But what we're saying is that the area that needs to be cut, that's the policy decision. You're
suggesting vice versa.
No.
And I'mjust saying that the rest of us
There is no way that I know enough or that anyone of us knows enough about any department
in the City to know which Department could most easily stand cuts. There is no way that I know
without looking at, what part of the non-personnel budget would be the best, best way to go to. I
would be happy to work with the City Manager and City Finance Director over the next year
and come up with something. But to me, the Council either says public safety is our number I
priority or it isn't. Period.
It is a priority. I'm not going to use the emergency levy. I want to take that right off. I
misunderstood what that was. I'm not willing to use that. We may need it for something, really
need it for something.
Ah, for, for
And !think there's a reasonable difference of opinion. You've heard mine. You folks can
decide.
I think
Well that's. Go ahead Amy.
What growth do we think we're going to have from last year to this year? I know it's not, we're
not doing an assessment year, but there's been new building development.
Oh, there's, remember, you're going to have a rollback and all these other factors.
Mmm hmm. But there's some growth?
If in a non-reevaluation we do 2 to 21/2, that's a good year for us.
Ok. And so what dollar value is 2 1/2 %?
Oh from the income?
In increased revenue.
Assuming rollback, from 8.
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O'Malley: 400 thousand?
Atkins: I, yeah, maybe 400 thousand. HaIfa million, tops.
Vanderhoef: Ok. And then we have our inflationary number for operations and all that thing, those kinds of
things and increased salaries that come out of that 400 thousand. So I would guess that we
might be down at 50 thousand, which would hire one firefighter.
Correia: So all the growth in our City, we're going to increase our revenue 400 thousand dollars?
Atkins: Yeah. In property tax revenue. Some of our other fees and charges will go up, but, no, I
wouldn't expect much more than that.
Bailey: So I made a suggestion last year, and this is a policy decision, to roll Senior Center
programming into Parks and Rec. And hope to see some savings there. I'm putting that out,
because nobody else is putting out anything.
Correia: I would support that.
Elliott: I think those kinds of things are well worth looking into.
Bailey: But, I mean, I think, for the staff to look into it there needs to be direction from this group,
because I think that's a big enough decision to be a policy decision. I mean, is there any, I know
Mike didn't have any interest in doing that, but I'm just going to put that out there again.
Champion: I'm willing to look at it.
Correia: I'm willing to look at it.
Vanderhoef: We also created a fire safety person this past year, during the year, so we took one firefighter off
the line. So that's a policy.
Champion: No. We did?
Vanderhoef: Vh huh.
Elliott: Mmm hmm.
Champion: I thought we used our extra money for that.
Atkins: We didn't have any extra money.
Bailey: Extra money
Champion: Well, what are you doing with it?
(laughter)
Vanderhoef:
We've added another HIS person, with a different title, in there.
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Atkins: Yeah. And those are
Vanderhoef: We have added at the library.
Atkins: HIS and building inspection, remember, pay for themselves.
Bailey: We also increased hours at the library, and I don't want to go backwards on that.
Atkins: Yes we did.
Vanderhoef: Well, we increased them, which meant more FTEs.
Bailey: I don't know if other people want to.
Vanderhoef: But that's, that's where we have increased without increasing in the fire safety. So it's services,
certainly, that we all like to have, but, if we're looking at a policy decision, we have to look at
every single one of these.
Bailey: Well and that's what we're supposed to be doing, right?
Vanderhoef: Mmmm hmmm.
Wilburn: Yes.
Bailey: So what's your suggestion?
Vanderhoef: I'm, I'm suggesting that anything out of HIS that is not being paid for by fees, we take a good
look at that. I'm looking at library.
Champion: (can't hear) being paid for.
Correia: Well, why is that, 15?
Atkins: Yes. That's HIS positions. Those are all.
Champion: Paid for.
Atkins: They're in the general fund, but they pay for themselves. They generate sufficient income.
Champion: Yeah.
Correia: They really shouldn't be in there.
Atkins: Ah.
Correia: For the purposes of thinking about.
Atkins: Well, we book it in the general fund.
Bailey: But they're self-supporting positions.
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Atkins:
Wilburn:
Atkins:
Wilburn:
Elliott:
Bailey:
Champion:
Atkins:
Vanderhoef:
Bailey:
(laughter)
Part of Transit is, transit fees and fares are in the general fund as well. So I mean, you could
theoretically say a number of the Transit employees are paid for by fares.
Look at it as pass-through.
Yeah.
Urn. Regenia had put forth and Amy and Connie had said they would be willing to look at some
type of proposal. What we could get out of, in terms of funds available for firefighter staff, by
rolling Senior Center programs into Parks and Rec. Bob, are you the fourth person that's willing
to do that?
You bet. You bet. I think we need to look, very, because whatever problems we're having
tonight are going to be compounded in the future, because our City is growing and we're going
to, public safety is always gonna be that missing giant that's not in the corner, and mass transit,
the needs are going to increase and we just have to look at what our priorities are.
As a policy, I would be willing to stop growing out.
Yeah. That would be fine with me.
On the Senior Center
So you wouldn't add an industrial park of 80 acres out?
Oh,well.. .
Bailey: Ok. Well, there's that.
Vanderhoef: There is that. We've got one down off of Scott; Northgate is growing out there.
Wilburn: It's not easy.
Bailey: No, I'm not saying it's easy, but I think.
Vanderhoef: Same thing.
Bailey: I know.
Bailey: And Northgate needs that fire station.
Atkins: If you want us to do some work on the Senior Center, one is we need to have, let the
Commissions, respective Commissions, know what's going on. That's for sure.
Wilburn: Right.
Bailey: Mmm hrom.
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Vanderhoef: I would put the fire station
Atkins: So you're aware, in the Senior Center budget as proposed to me, they're asking for additional
staff in order to stay open more hours.
Elliott: Everybody wants more money.
Atkins: Well, but, I understand the more money, but they also in return are saying we want to be open
more.
Elliott: Mmm hmmm.
Wilburn: It's the services.
Atkins: There's always going to be a tradeoff.
Baeth: Well I
Bailey: But there's always
Vanderhoef: So, Senior Center or our library? I mean, expanding services when we can't afford to
Bailey: Well, I suggest that there might be - why I said Parks and Rec. is there might be overlap in class
offerings. And there just, I mean, Senior Center obviously targets a specific market with some
specific types of programming that can accommodate seniors within other programs. I mean,
it's a different approach to providing programming, obviously.
Vanderhoef: I would look at a broad stroke of what, what changes would be there in FTEs.
Champion: Well yes, that's what we're going to do.
Bailey: Well and then we still have the building. We have to include what the expense of the building
IS.
Vanderhoef: You know, this is only one spot, so if we gain one or potentially one FTE.
Atkins: Ok. This is, please understand, I know how hard this is. Cause we were, it's difficult.
Bailey: Right. I, I don't.
Atkins: This is difficult. But one other wrench to put in the works, 10 firefighters, it's going to cost you
about 12 positions to get you the 10 for firefighters, because they're much more expensive.
Vanderhoef Mmm hmm.
Wilburn: Dee has put forth in additionally looking at, and correct me if I'm phrasing this wrong, Dee, at
some type of reduction, FTE reduction, at the library.
Champion: No.
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Bailey:
Wilburn:
Baeth:
Elliott:
Wilburn:
Bailey:
Champion:
Wilburn:
Champion:
Wilburn:
Elliott:
Wilburn:
Elliott:
Bailey:
Wilburn:
Elliott:
Wilburn:
Champion:
Wilburn:
Dilkes;
(laughter)
No.
Are there four others, three others?
I think it's a good idea. I know I don't have a vote, but I'd rather cut hours than having my
house burn down.
I just can't imagine doing this piecemeal like this! If any board sets a priority, if you want to put
this in highest priority, then you work with management. You don't do it piecemeal when the
people who knew, know least about it, are making the specific questions. Management does that
- that's management.
The difficult. Not.
Bob, we've already agreed we have a different philosophy about this. It's not gonna change.
I mean, Steve, what do you see as the
I'm sorry, hold on Connie.
Oh, I'm sorry.
Because Regenia is correct that the majority, all but you felt that it should be a policy direction
from us to
Yes. I agree with that.
With, specifically which pieces, what we're doing now.
No.
That's the problem.
Let me. Let me finish first.
When, Ok.
Ok. Because this is a political entity what will happen, Steve will say here's the cuts and it
won't happen. There will not be agreement on, there will not be a majority, for example, that
wants to get rid of the City Clerk's staff. There will not be a majority that wants to get rid of the
Human Rights staff.
Ifwe got rid of Eleanor, we wouldn't have anybody telling us what to do all night.
And so.
Do it!
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Wilburn:
Dilkes:
Wilburn:
Elliott:
Wilburn:
Elliott:
Wilburn:
Bailey:
Elliott:
Champion:
Bailey:
Wilburn:
Elliott:
Wilburn:
Elliott:
Wilburn:
Elliott:
Atkins:
Eleanor wants out of here tonight.
(can't hear)
So because it is a, not only is it a political body but it is an organization, and that sends ripples
throughout the organization when the CEO has targeted you and your department for
elimination without the support and direction of the board. And that
Anybody who has worked in business has been through that.
And those that have done that, it is difficult to, it's difficult to have your organization function,
and there's a period of, a significant period of time of adjustment for that to happen, if the board
sticks to it. And what I'm saying is, rather than I guess, I view that as putting the cart before the
horse.
Well I just think that
Why not come to agreement beforehand and say, go to it, as opposed to vice versa.
Yes.
And the agreement is, either the Council says public safety is our highest priority or it isn't. And
if it isn't, let's move on.
There's that statement.
That's a really easy thing to say. But if you don't understand fully the ramifications as a policy,
then you can't fully commit to that statement.
Well and, the other piece to that is, I feel it's unfair to make that statement given that we have in
the last, well, those of us that have been on multiple terms and those of you that are in your first
term, the amount of money that we have put into fire equipment, millions of dollars. We, we
just finished agreeing to tear down and put up another, you know, replace a fire station that's in
horrible condition. So I feel that's an unfair statement, saying you don't care about fire safety.
Ok. I'm willing to back off that a bit.
I appreciate that.
If you feel that public safety is your number I priority, but you feel that our fire chiefis
inaccurate when he said we are in need, and you feel our data comparing Iowa City to virtually
every other city of its size, then I think reasonable people can disagree.
Ok. And I think our fire chief would agree that we have made investments so they are able to do
their jobs.
It's interesting that the fire chief isn't here.
That's - there's a very good reason for that.
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Champion:
Elliott:
Atkins:
Elliott:
Atkins:
Wilburn:
Elliott:
Wilburn:
Elliott:
Wilburn:
Bailey:
Correia:
Elliott:
Champion:
Atkins:
Champion:
Atkins:
Champion:
Atkins:
Champion:
Can I ask a question?
No, I'm just
Go ahead.
No, the fire chief's not here, but we have not asked him to be here.
No. I did ask him, but there was something special in his family, and I said, well, take care of it.
We have, so, since we have not been in agreement with you about having Steve put forward x
numbers of cuts in services, the next step is what we were trying to do, was look at some other
proposals. And so does anyone else have any other proposals.
I think you're never going to get something like that if you require the people who are least
informed to make those highly specific decisions. That's never going to happen and it shouldn't
happen that way.
But you've said, you're contradicting yourself a little bit in my view, by on one hand saying the
priority is, whether it's 75% or fire is number I priority, whatever it takes, and then saying,
well, I don't have enough expertise to say, given your prior statement, it shouldn't matter which
areas will suffer or service reductions suffer because you yourself have said fire is number I.
Mmm hmm. I agree. I agree with everything you've said.
Ok.
Can I go in a different direction?
Can I propose
And it's not going to happen, so let's move on.
Yeah. Let's do. Steve, we're gonna have some money from the Transit, from the Court Transit
Center.
Yes.
You know, I would suggest that we don't hire any other personnel with that money, that we
remember that we're going to have it. What do you see - I mean, I know you can't project the
future, but we have had some positive growth.
Yeah, it looks good.
And if, so, maybe 2, 3,4 years - that growth should start to flow into our general fund?
It is now, but it gets consumed.
By, with increases.
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Atkins:
Champion:
Atkins:
Correia:
Champion:
Atkins:
Champion:
Atkins:
Champion:
Correia:
Atkins:
Champion:
O'Donnell:
Atkins:
Wilburn:
Atkins:
Champion:
O'Donnell:
Atkins:
Wilburn:
Atkins:
Bailey:
Yeah. Just by routine increases.
Well 400 dollars is nothing, right? I mean.
What's that?
400 thousand.
400 dollars covers increases and gives us a little more money for a new public art project.
A hell of a public art project.
But could we possibly, like in 2 years, when things are reevaluated, with all the new
construction we've had, with Southgate
I think I'm very comfortable saying to you unequivocally this community can not afford the 4th
fire station.
Ok.
Ever.
Ever. We simply do not have the growth in our resources.
Wow. Ok.
That's a powerful statement, Steve.
I know it is.
It is.
I've given it a lot of thought.
What did you say, Mike?
I said, that's a powerful statement.
Unless you are willing to what I believe to be dramatic reductions in other services, which I
can't recommend to you. I mean, folks, we took 4 police officers, we're still 2 short getting
back to our original compliment of police.
And it's service, it's, the services don't arise out of thin air. The people consume them. People
move to our area to use them.
Yep.
People ask for them.
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Wilburn: People ask for them now.
Bailey: We're not providing services that people aren't using.
Atkins: We provide a very good package of public services. I don't think there's any doubt about that.
Bailey: No.
Atkins: But we just simply do not have the financial flexibility to do.
Bailey: Well then let's sell that land.
Atkins: What land?
Bailey: I mean if we have land for a fire station, if we're never going to be able to afford it, let's, I
mean, if that's the direction we're gonua go -
Atkins: There may be some circumstance occur that permits a future Council to act on that.
Bailey: It doesn't make sense to keep it off the tax roles.
Elliott: I agree.
Vanderhoef: The one cent sales tax is, in my mind, the one thing that we're gonna have to put forward to the
community before too long, because we're gonna be looking at a communication center,
whether it's ours alone or whether it's a combined one, and we have growth, and the growth is
gonua go where the fire stations are.
Atkins: But by your own admissions, admission, you grow weary of the use of the property tax, and
that's the only source we have available to us. And it's the most highly regulated revenue that
we have in the State.
V anderhoef: Yes.
Wilburn: I know where this
Atkins: Simply the way it is.
Wilburn: I know where this one's gonna go. Are there more than Dee and myself who are willing to do
the, to put together some type of sales tax proposal?
Bailey: Sales tax? I'd be a gambling vote before I'd do a sales tax.
O'Donnell: I would use (can't hear)
Atkins: Remember what we did last year, when our reserve position was good? We chose to spend it
down? Well that's also one of the trends. I mean, cause you can only reach a certain point where
you can spend that down. And we were going to balance the budget by reducing those reserves.
Champion: (can't hear)
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Atkins:
Champion:
Atkins:
Champion:
Atkins:
Bailey:
Wilburn:
(laughter)
What's that?
Right. I forgot that. I didn't vote for it.
We had some unusual things this year after the tornado, which, remember, we had a tornado.
Yes.
We put the squeeze on. We ended the year in a very good financial position, because there were
things we didn't do. Now, sooner or later you have to do those things that don't get done. I
mean, we're a triple A credit rated community. There's no reason why we can't continue to do
that. We just simply don't have the income stream to support expanded levels of service. I
mean, that's the bottom line. Our firefighters will always have the best of equipment, and I can't
imagine why you would never, ever, do anything other than get them the best of equipment, and
we do. We'll put up against anything.
So.
I'm sorry, Regenia, before you go on, Mike had also added his name to the ones who (can't
hear)
Bailey: So you're still gonna go for four?
Wilburn: Is, would there be a fourth? Well, let me ask you this, Steve, urn, and I know you don't have
exact numbers, but given what you recall about the possibilities out oflocal options sales tax,
could there be a package of sales tax and property tax relief to include staff for fire stations?
Atkins: Absolutely. There's not a problem. Yeah.
Champion: That would be good.
Wilburn: So, it that were included in the package, would we get a fourth person?
Champion: Yes.
Atkins: Ok. You would not only be able to reduce property taxes, you would also have sufficient
income stream to support -
Elliott: I'd be highly in favor of it. Ijust don't think it's politically possible.
Vanderhoef: Say the - say the end of that again. I didn't hear you.
Atkins: That with a sales tax you would find yourself in a position not only to reduce property taxes, but
you would also be in a position to fund some additional services. I don't think there's any doubt
about that.
Vanderhoef: Services and long term and the communications center?
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Baeth: Voters decide.
Atkins: Oh, I don't think there's any doubt. The communications center I believe
Vanderhoef: Ifwe've got 5 million
Atkins: I believe the communications center can be funded currently, because all you're really gonna do
is take the money you spend here and put it over there.
Vanderhoef: It would just be the building, which is a capital project, not even
Atkins: And I don't expect the building to be a major capital expense unless we add all sorts of bells
and whistles. You know, we've talked about storage areas and evidence, I mean, and I think you
want to consider those at the time.
Vanderhoef: I think the only way to sell a sales tax is to say we're gonna use it for, half of it's gonna go to
property taxes. It would be more than that. I mean, more than that. Our property taxes are out of
sight.
Wilburn: Connie was the fourth and Bob, what's the term that I wanted to use?
Elliott: I'm in favor.
Wilburn: I know you're in favor but there was a
O'Donnell: Reluctantly.
Elliott: I don't think it's politically.
Wilburn: Doubtfully.
Elliott: I think 2 years from now.
Correia: When you're off the Council.
Bailey: When you're off the Council. Is that what you?
Wilburn: Not to be, not to be cavalier about this, but maybe a place to start would be to have some real
numbers.
Atkins: Run you some sales tax numbers?
Wilburn: Yeah, some sales.
Atkins: Just dig into our files, we've got
Wilburn: Yeah, but not just, here's the sales tax, but some type of property tax, staffing.
Atkins: A relief (can't hear)
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Wilburn: A relief pack, yeah, just so we have something to react to.
Atkins: We ought to be able to do that Kevin, shouldn't we, yeah? Kevin's nodding ok.
Elliott: Can we do an Iowa City sales tax?
Champion: Yes.
Bailey: Yes.
Elliott: We don't have to go countywide?
Bailey: No.
Atkins: Oh yeah you do. You have to remember, when you
Wilburn: Contiguous.
Elliott: It has to be countywide.
Atkins: When you, it's a County tax. When you vote on a sales tax. You have the ability as the City
Council to call it.
Elliott: No, but we can't do just Iowa City. It has to be County.
Atkins: When you vote, you're voting
Vanderhoef: Coralville, North Liberty and Tiffin all have to vote.
Atkins: And Hills, and University Heights, as if it's one city.
Wilburn: Contiguous.
Elliot: From
Correia: Then how do you, how do you divide the?
O'Donnell: Equitably.
Vanderhoef: By population.
Atkins; There's a formula.
Elliott: Yeah.
Atkins: A lousy one, but there's a formula.
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Elliott: From talking with you, I know when this came up a couple of years ago, there were those who
thought that an inordinate amount would come from the big mall in Coralville, and it turns out
that no, our sales is something like 2: 1.
Atkins: We're still the - yeah, easy.
Champion: But the sad thing is I don't think, I mean, Coralville, are they getting short of money?
Vanderhoef: We have the high-ticket items.
Champion: I mean, I have a problem, you know, it's getting cooperation from the surrounding
communities.
Atkins: Yeah.
Champion: And the school district will have it, if they're going to build a new high school and junior high,
so, I mean, that's what Coralville and North Liberty are saying. If they don't build a high school
and junior high, they're not going to support it. But they will
Wilburn: I, I can barely confidently say that while they wouldn't, they may not bring it forward,
Coralville would probably be supportive. At least the Council would be supportive of.
Champion: Well then we need to talk about this again.
Bailey: So we're going to see that but we're also going to see other, I mean?
Vanderhoef: I know there's a couple of communities besides Iowa City that are cash poor and have some
Atkins: We're not cash poor.
Champion: No. We're not cash poor. We can't provide
Vanderhoef: Long term. Sorry.
Atkins: We have a good, we have a good policy on our reserves and
Vanderhoef: General fund. Cash poor. General fund.
Atkins: It works, because when it came to that tornado, the reason we were able to spend almost one
million dollars without batting an eye. And remember, we ate all of that. We didn't get any
money back, either.
Champion: Ah.
Bailey: So you'd rather pursue a sales tax than do anything, even temporarily, within our emergency
level.
Champion: I'm not willing to use that emergency level. My, my interpretation of that levy was wrong when
I first supported it. I think it's ridiculous to use an emergency level to staff.
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Atkins: The emergency level has the, excuse me. I'll wait.
Bailey: But, it would take us a while to get a sales tax passed. Do you want?
Champion: What happens if we actually need that emergency level and we've used it all?
Atkins: The emergency levy functions as if it's an $8.37 and not an $8.10, because you take the $8.10
plus the 27 cents. Yeah. You can do it at your own discretion.
Bailey: Right.
Atkins: Yeah. You do it at your own discretion. You have certain procedural matters, correct Kevin?
That we have to jump through, but nothing of major consequence. Functionally that's how it
works.
Vanderhoef: But remember when we institute the 27 cent emergency level, we are increasing our tax again.
Bailey: Levy.
Atkins: Yes, you are.
Bailey: You see, , don't have a problem with property tax. , have a lot more of a problem with sales tax.
That's my point, 'think.
Vanderhoef: Well.
Bailey: And it would take a while for sales tax, even if it passed, to be implemented. So , mean, it
would be an income stream for a period and then you could be ready to go.
Atkins: 'fit were, Regenia, if it were to pass, you could implement it within a quarter. That's in 3
months. And once you have the guaranteed income stream, I'd have no trouble recommending
for you to proceed with the project. It's a guaranteed income stream.
Wilburn: We've had two, and' don't want to get too, because there were some other items here that may
or may not be budget related. But were there any other areas? We're gonna hear some type of
and give notice to the Commission that this is something we're looking at, in terms of rolling
the Senior Center into Parks and Rec.
O'Donnell: What does that do to the staff at the Senior Center?
Wilburn: 'don't know, but that's, that's what we're gonna hear.
Bailey: That's what we're gonna take a look at.
Atkins: That' don't know.
Wilburn: We're just hearing, we're going to get something to react to here. And the sales tax. Were there?
Atkins: 6 people there?
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Vanderhoef: Would somebody refresh me on the State Human Rights Commission and what they're
responsible for if a city does not have their own?
Atkins: Dale supervises that operation, there.
Helling: Smaller communities that don't have a commission, or even maybe some that do have a
commission and not a staff, will refer all their complaints to the State Civil Rights Commission.
There is a statute however, and I believe the number is 33 thousand, if that's not the number it's
very close, that cities over that population are mandated to have a commission, and I'd have to
get the statute, but I believe they are also mandated to have a staff to support the commission.
Bailey: It's.
Wilburn: We also have some items I believe in our Human Rights ordinance that are, some protected
classes that are not included in the state. Is that correct?
Helling: That's right.
Correia: Mmmm hmm.
Elliott: Now, the County is going to make theirs' much more, at least similar, to ours. Have we talked
to the County about merging?
O'Donnell: That's a good idea.
Atkins: County, I think their ordinance only governs the unincorporated portion.
Correia: It does.
Atkins: And is it gonna look a lot like ours? Yeah, I'm pretty sure. We haven't seen it.
Elliott: Those are the kinds of things it would be good to look into also.
Atkins: Could you have a Human Rights ordinance covering all of Johnson County? I would suspect so.
Could we serve as the
Vanderhoef: Unincorporated.
Atkins: Yeah. No, the whole County. All the cities.
Correia: Could you what - what was the question?
Vanderhoef: But, but many of those little towns wouldn't necessarily.
Dilkes: No the towns wouldn't. The towns have to have their own.
Vanderhoef: Have to have their own.
Atkins: That's my point. Is that, it would, you can cover the whole County, but each of those towns may
have to do their own - have to, excuse me.
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Elliott: All I'm saying is if the County is going to enact, going to approve an ordinance which is, if not
identical, at least highly similar to ours, what are the chances of, instead of them having
someone to work with their ordinance and us having ours, to combine those positions.
Atkins: If you remember, about a year ago I got a letter from the Board of Supervisors and I sent them a
response saying here's what we estimate it would cost, etc. and that was it.
Wilburn: Yeah.
Atkins: So that's in their file. I could drag that out, but we've already had that communication, Bob, but
whether they're going to pick up on it or not, I don't know.
Vanderhoef: That's a heavy staff situation. It's not one of those things that you can combine and have a lot of
change in staffing. Which is what we're trying to accomplish.
Elliott: You might need to have as much staff, but you'd have only one administrator.
Atkins: Yeah. Investigator is what they're called.
Elliott: Yeah.
Wilburn: Are there other items, either something that people would feel would be shifting of staff or
doing it that or are there other items on the list that have budgetary implications that we can
bounce off Steve to find out?
Atkins: Let me, maybe it'll help set the stage for you - I'm expecting when we go into the serious
budget balancing, and we're getting there, that the budget you see operationally will be
substantially the same, the same as you know it today. I don't see any real dramatic changes.
We have some capital projects, but that's generally been considered independent of the
operating. So going into the preparation of the budget, the growth we have with, how many
bargaining agreements do we have out? Just one?
Helling: Just one this year, but it's the AFSCME
Atkins: The AFSCME, which is our largest group. That's likely what the budget will like, so there's not
an anticipation of doing anything, any major new spending. Or revenues.
Wilburn: And so with that said.
Champion: I would like us all to look very carefully at the capital improvement projects. And I'm gonna be
willing to support any capital improvement practic, projects that's going to increase industrial
development. I'm going to be very cautious about other ones, because I think as our employee
benefit levy goes up and as our taxes are really high now for a lot of people, anything we can do
to maybe develop future income but keep things stabilized. I think we have enough roads
constructed for regular development now. We have a lot of developable land available.
Atkins: Developable.
Vanderhoef: No, we don't.
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Elliott: Mmm mm.
Champion: We don't? What about 1" Avenue, Scott Boulevard, Cardinal Ridge, ah.
Vanderhoef: All ofthat east is almost build out. I think there's one lot left?
Champion: What are you talking about?
Vanderhoef: Industrial parks.
Champion: You're talking about industrial land.
Atkins: You're talking in general.
V anderhoef: You - excuse me. Then I didn't hear what you said.
Karr: Could - I'm sorry, Dee. I can't hear you at all.
Champion: Anyway, just think about it. I'm willing to fund any improvement for industrial development.
Atkins: Just. Ok. And we have a large property owner on the east edge of town.
Bailey: Hmmm.
Atkins: I'm sorry. That has approached us about annexing
(cut off - end of tape)
Atkins: But you'll see then the capital plan.
Vanderhoef: And probably out at Northgate. Also. Just because there's a proposal out there to buy more land
by our last TIF customer.
Atkins: Yeah.
Champion: Ok.
Vanderhoef: I still would like to add to our list of things for next year, to clean up the lot, including taking
down the gas station.
Correia: I think we need to look at what we own and see if we can sell it to get it back on the property
tax roles. What's the most attractive -
Atkins: The long term thought process, Amy, had been that this block, these three blocks, where the Rec
Center is, where the parking garage is in this block, would ultimately all be owned by the City
as somewhat of a civic plaza. The only things we don't own are the Unitarian Church and that
power transformer thing.
Champion: Right. Thing.
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Bailey: Substation D.
Atkins: We own, we own all the rest. That had been the thinking.
Vanderhoef: That's our canvas.
Atkins: So if we're going to put something back on the tax role, keep in mind
Bailey: Well, and what's the thinking,
Correia: Why do we need that?
Bailey: Yeah, ok. Why do we need a campus?
Correia: What would we put there?
Wilburn: Rec Center expansion.
Bailey: Is that in the works, I mean, expansion of the Rec Center?
Correia: The downtown Rec Center?
Wilburn: I'm just thinking. You know. We just made an investment with the Sand Lake. I'm just trying to
think that far out too, to not get land locked.
Correia: I guess my
Bailey: Right. I guess I'm wondering, if we're gonna own, you know, have a campus, my commitment
would be to provide, I mean, not parking facilities necessarily for ourselves, but things that
provide community service, not office space necessarily, but things the community wants. If
we're going to own this much land in the central business district.
Elliott: What will happen
Vanderhoef: Well we're developing it and it may well be where the communication center goes if we go it
alone. I don't know.
Bailey: Well, I don't think. I mean.
Vanderhoef: I've always wanted to expand space for the Rec Center downtown.
Bailey: Well, and I could, yeah, I see that vision make sense to me. But if it's just for our own office
space people can
Vanderhoef: And we combine them together when we can do a project
Atkins: Generally speaking, this building is probably built out. I mean, we've added wings and rooms
and. We're in pretty good shape in this regard.
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Champion: We don't have any money to hire anybody else anyway.
Bailey: Yeah exactly.
Correia: I was gonna say, we're not looking at expanding.
Atkins: , don't see any real major demand for expanding space here at the City level.
Champion: Dee, , do agree with you.
Elliott: We talked about tbat comer though as a possible site, if the homeless shelter, which is now in
litigation, can't go where it is, we had at least talked in passing about the homeless shelter being
there.
Champion: The problem with that property is whether to just take down the cute little bus stations, which'
guess is not salvageable. To me, we should just deal with that whole unit and not just with the
bus station.
Bailey: Right.
Atkins: We agree.
Champion: 'don't think the John Wilson being is any more attractive than the bus station.
Vanderhoef: No.
Atkins: 'fyou smash the building that's holding up John Wilson.
Vanderhoef: It is, for sure.
Wilburn: Yes.
Atkins: God rest his soul.
Champion: And that must be some brown cleanup, what do you call it?
Correia: , was gonna ask that.
Atkins: Brownfields.
Bailey: Brownfields.
Champion: Brownfield cleanup.
Atkins: Ah, since it was an old gas station, , suspect that's something we'll have to explore. But' think
we did some work on that. 'just, have to dig that out.
Champion: So I'd rather see us deal with that comer as a whole unit rather than just spending money to tear
that building down.
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Atkins: Yeah.
Bailey: Yes.
Atkins: Well the reason to tear it down is it's really an eyesore.
Champion: I know it.
Atkins: Ok.
Champion: I hate to admit it. It could be really nice, though.
Elliott: We have a breakthrough.
Champion: I know. I've looked at it. I drive by it almost every day, and I agree. It, unless somebody wants
to move it.
Vanderhoef: That whole lot is an eyesore.
Champion: It is.
Bailey: The parking lot is no more attractive. I mean, you know.
Vanderhoef: But it can generate revenue and create a space for parking for our farmers' market, a cleaned up
and well-maintained lot there for the time being.
Bailey: Mmmm. Still would have an expense associated.
Atkins: I see two assignments. Sales tax revenue, just to get current information, and then Senior
Center/Parks and Recreation.
Bailey: That's all we came up with.
Atkins: That's what you came up with.
Bailey: This is a real brain trust.
Wilburn: Any other items?
O'Donnell: I can't thing of one.
Wilburn: I would like to see, I don't know that this will, this is necessarily going to be significant on the
budget, but maybe it's more of an operational type thing. The recycling at the Youth Sports
Park.
Atkins: Say what again?
Wilburn: Recycling at the Youth Sports Park. Softball season
Correia: But that's kind of a non-budgetary
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Wilburn: Well, I mean, the items cost and you've got to have somebody come pick them up.
Atkins: Yeah.
Wilburn: But I think the problem in the past has been more contamination.
Atkins: I believe that's on Jim's, Jim's. The contamination in the. We'll get you a better answer.
Champion: Oh, you know, I wanted to, I've been meaning to ask, how is the trash can business working? Is
that working well? Those lift up things?
Bailey: Oh, yeah, I see more and more of those.
Atkins: Dh yeah, in fact, we want to buy another thousand. We're going to keep expanding that.
Champion: Oh good. Been meaning to ask how that's working out.
Atkins: That's the one person truck.
Elliott: That's the automated system.
Correia: I want that in my neighborhood, but I think my neighbors (can't hear)
Vanderhoef: You could go with one about a quarter that size for my household.
Atkins: Well sort of me too.
Champion: Not me. But no, I'm glad to hear that.
Atkins: It's working well.
Bailey: And it leaves space (can't hear)
Atkins: If you think about it, we have not added a person other than those directed for recycling to our
refuse recycling program in almost 25 years.
Elliott: And it works out dollars and cents.
Atkins: It works out dollars and cents.
Elliott: In fact, it takes the truck considerably longer to make its rounds, but not twice as long.
Atkins: Absolutely.
Elliott: Ok. And you do not have, my understanding is the people working on the back of the trash
trucks
Atkins: Workers comp claims.
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Elliott:
I have workers compo
Atkins:
They disappear.
Bailey:
Which is great.
Elliott:
Good. Good.
Wilburn:
Ok. Well. I guess next is budget time and shuffling that.
O'Donnell:
Thank you.
Atkins:
Thank you.
This represents only a reasonable accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council meeting of
November 6, 2006.