HomeMy WebLinkAbout2009-01-05 TranscriptionJanuary 5, 2009 City Council Work Session Page 1
January 5, 2009 City Council Work Session 6:30 P.M.
Council Present: Bailey, Champion, Correia, Hayek, O'Donnell, Wilburn, Wright
Staff: Lombardo, Helling, Dilkes, Karr, Davidson, Hargadine, Rocca, Miklo,
Greer, Morris, Jordan, Rummel, Goers
Others Present: UISG Representative, Gunn
Planning and Zoning Items:
Bailey/ Um, let's get started. Um, just to let everyone know, we are moving agenda items and
info pack discussion, which may include plastic bag discussion, before our discussion of
underage and overconsumption of alcohol. So, we will do Planning and Zoning, Council
appointments, agenda items, and info packet. All right?
Karr/ Madame Mayor, we have the addition, the one addition to the agenda for tomorrow night
that we need to post 24 hours ahead of time. It's the addition, the subordination
agreement for United Action for Youth, and it's in your packet. It'll be on your Consent
Calendar tomorrow evening.
Bailey/ Okay. Thanks. Okay, let's get started on Planning and Zoning.
a) CONSIDER A RESOLUTION APPROVING THE FINAL PLAT OF MOUNT
PROSPECT ADDITION, PART IX, IOWA CITY, IOWA. (SUB08-00009)
(DEFERRED FROM 12/2 and 12/16)
Davidson/ Good evening, Madame Mayor and Members of the City Council. Uh, we have one
item under Planning and Zoning, and it should be familiar to you. I believe this is the
third time we've discussed it, so I'll be very brief. It is the final plat of Mount Prospect,
excuse me, Part IX. Uh, this site was originally supposed to be a church. It ended up not
being a church. It's now being replatted as a 16-lot, uh, subdivision on 5.21 acres. These
are, uh, single-family homes. Uh, we had an issue that you will recall, in that Outlot C,
which is here, um, did not conform with the preliminary plat, uh, it now conforms with
the preliminary plat, in that it is reflected as an easement. That was the issue. Uh, and it
will provide a linkage from the end of the cul-de-sac, both there to the trail, the existing
trail, which is Outlot B along here. Uh, otherwise then, Outlot A, which is up at this end
of the subdivision...I lost my little pointer thing there, um, will be added to the adjacent
lot, dedicated to the adjacent lot. Uh, and that is about it, unless you have any questions.
Bailey/ Questions?
Davidson/ Thank you.
Bailey/ Thank you. All right. Let's move on to Council appointments.
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January 5, 2009 City Council Work Session
Council Appointments:
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Bailey/ Historic Preservation - I believe we have one applicant, and (mumbled) are we all.. .
Hayek/ I know I'm a little bit...I...I can recommend'em.
O'Donnell/ Looks good.
Bailey/ All right.
Wright/ (mumbled)
Bailey/ Okay, and Parks and Rec, one vacancy, one, uh, and we have many applicants, and I
think last time we talked about somebody who, appointing...maybe it was younger, but...
Wright/ We mentioned last time Aaron...Aaron, uh, Krohmer.
Bailey/ (mumbled) application. Okay. (several talking) Do we have four? (several
commenting) One, two, three, four...all right. I think that's all we had for appointments.
Let's move on to agenda items.
Agenda Items:
Bailey/ Does anybody have any agenda items that they would need discussed. We have staff
people here to address.
ITEM 5. CONSIDER ADOPTION OF THE CONSENT CALENDAR AS PRESENTED
OR AMENDED.
f) Correspondence.
1. JCCOG Traffic Engineering Planner: Removal of nine on-street metered
parking spaces and establishment of a commercial vehicle loading zone on
the east side of the 10 block of Dubuque Street.
Correia/ I had a question about the, um, Dubuque Street, the removal of the on-street metered
parking spaces. Did we talk about, um...
Bailey/ What item is this? I'm sorry.
Correia/ It's in our correspondence, f.l.
Bailey/ Okay. Oh, right!
Correia/ Had we talked...when we had that discussion, had we talked about making up some of
those lost (noise on mic) on that block by making additional meters on Iowa Avenue,
commercial loading zones, that were observed to not be used as often. I guess I thought
we had talked about that, but maybe...
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O'Brien/ Yeah, we'd discussed that, but that...I guess the original plan was to get the commercial
loading zones in place before people were turned back, so that when they came back for
the semester everything...
Correia/ Yes...no, I agree, L . .
O'Brien/ Yes, that's still part of (mumbled) phase one of about five phases that we're, um, there
was some information, I think, coming within six to eight weeks, um. I talked to John
Yapp today. He said about six to eight weeks probably, and we'll know more about the
one-way.
Correia/ Right, but I guess I was wondering about sort of that immediate we're losing those nine
spaces, and I know that what you said is there's lots of people sitting there for long
periods of time, so it's really not being used for turnover, but that those just around the
corner, that are current zones, that...
O'Brien/ I think what we're worried about is losing, I mean, the whole purpose was to bring in
more commercial space for what we're removing from the center, and then if we then take
away commercial space right away...I think that's something down the road, if it looks
like we need to add additional, we would look at doing.
Champion/ But I thought...I'm sorry...finish.
O'Brien/ Um, if they recommend the one-way on Dubuque Street, that makes up for all of our
lost meters plus...
Correia/ Right.
O'Brien/ ...and then we can look. at those loading zones, and I think what we were looking at was
making them, uh, not a commercial...to changing one of them into just a regular loading
zone for people that want to do business.
Correia/ Right, that's what we had talked about! (several talking)
Champion/ ...the one by Atlas, because nobody...I never see a commercial truck parked there.
O'Brien/ And that's certainly something we can look at, but like I...I think the first thing we
wanted to do was get the additional commercial spaces, see how they're utilized, um...
Champion/ They'll have to use 'em if they can't park in the street.
O'Brien/ Right, and then we'll see how they fill up. I think that's the.. .
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Champion/ Well, I still am concerned about the loss of parking places, and by making that one
loading zone...where I have never seen a commercial vehicle parked in it, and I've been
downtown for 23 years or whatever it is.
Correia/ I guess that's what I was wondering, is if that...at the same time that we're...we're, you
know, making that space for the commercial on Dubuque Street, that we would change
that commercial loading zone on Iowa Avenue in front of the Atlas to the same type of
temporary loading zone that we have on Washington Street.
Bailey/ I was just wondering. Chris, with these kinds of parking questions it's hard to measure
impact. How do you measure impact? I mean, we're making some assumptions that
people will be displaced. Connie makes the assumption that those loading zones aren't
used through observation. How...how would you assess that and bring us back some
information that would help us?
O'Brien/ We actually do utilization studies on...on certain areas of meters, um, it takes a period
of time, though, to do the actual meters. I think what you'll look at is, we can do the
same thing for the commercial loading zones and see how they're being utilized over a
period of time, once people return and we have the....everybodyback -students,
businesses -all going full, whereas right now, uh, during the break, it's tough to tell
because of the, uh, number of people that are in town. So once people return, you know,
over a four, six week period, we can tell what the utilization of those commercial spaces
are. How often they're occupied. How often they're occupied by people that shouldn't be
using them, um, and determine if we need to add additional metered spaces, or uh, a 15-
minute loading zone, which would be.. .
Bailey/ Would something like that be helpful to you when you're thinking about...
Correia/ I thought we kind of got that...I thought we had gotten that.. .
Wilburn/ ...a lot of information last time you presented.
Correia/ ...I thought we, but I don't have that with me.
O'Brien/ My understanding was the first phase was to get the commercial loading zone in place
on south Dubuque.
Champion/ But you're giving them a whole side of the street, between the alley...the whole
street, the whole street.
O'Brien/ Correct.
Champion/ And right now they're using the middle of the street, and they're not using those other
two commercial loading zones. So you're actually giving them three or four more spaces
than they have now when they parkin the middle of the street, and yet we still can't make
that one a 15-minute loading zone?
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O'Brien/ I think a lot of our concern was the reason those weren't being utilized the way they
should be was because of the amount of personal vehicles that were parking in those
loading zones.
Champion/ (mumbled) in that loading zone. There's rarely anybody parked in that loading zone.
(several talking) ...camera out there!
Hayek/ Yeah, but, you know, I drive...I park in the alley, and so I cross the little space you're
talking about every morning, and it...in my view, regularly used.
Champion/ No!
Hayek/ Um...
Champion/ This is not by the alley. This is on Iowa Avenue.
Hayek/ Correct, that's what I'm...right in front of Atlas, on the north side. North of Atlas.
Champion/ Yes, yes.
Hayek/ Yeah. So, all I'm saying is that I don't share the same perspective, and I would at least
want...I would assume we would want some studies or look at it closer and get some
numbers before we...we do (several talking)
Champion/ Well, I probably have a conflict of interest since those parking places are very
important to my business.
Hayek/ Yeah.
Champion/ And so, you know?
Hayek/ They help mine too!
Champion/ Well, you're around the corner.
Lombardo/ What I think we're trying to avoid is...is making designations and then going back
and changing it again. The thought of stepping into it is...is to monitor what's happening,
and then make additional changes as we move forward, as opposed to designating it and
then consider alternate changes.
Bailey/ So, we can get some further information. Amy, what was your...
Correia/ Well, I also want, um, I know we have signs in different places in the downtown
directing people to our, the parking ramps. I'm wondering in the initial phases if there
can be temporary signs that are sort of more prominent, because I think we're going
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to...once we, once these parking spaces...once we lose these parking spaces, we're all
going to start to hear about it, right? Parking, there's already problems with parking, and
we know there is a lot of parking, and that a lot of the folks that do use those spaces tend
to be there for long periods of time, feeding the meters, based on the data that you did
collect for us, so that...and there are spaces in our parking ramps. I'm just wondering if
we can do a media blitz around, lots of spaces, you know, in our parking ramps,
temporary signs around that area, to...
O'Brien/ Absolutely! We could get some signs up.
Correia/ ...direct people in that area...way.
Bailey/ The other question that I have about this item is...so it runs till 5:00, which is typical for
our commercial loading. zones, and after 5:00 these become available for people who are
downtown, taking night classes or...or whatever.
O'Brien/ That's correct.
Bailey/ Okay. Any other questions about this item? Chris is here. Okay. Other agenda items?
Thanks, Chris.
ITEM 8. APPROVING PLANS, SPECIFICATIONS, FORM OF CONTRACT, AND
ESTIMATE OF COST FOR THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE CITY ATTORNEY
AND COUNCIL OFFICE REMODELING PROJECT, ESTABLISHING
AMOUNT OF BID SECURITY TO ACCOMPANY EACH BID, DIRECTING
CITY CLERK TO PUBLISH ADVERTISEMENT FOR BIDS, AND FIXING
TIME AND PLACE FOR RECEIPT OF BIDS.
Wright/ Um, I wanted to ask about Item 8, with the remodeling on the attorney's office.
Bailey/ Okay.
Wright/ Um, when I looked at that, I looked at that in the original budget and it went up just a
little bit, but the original in the budget this year didn't talk about, um, handicap
accessibility in the ramp. Does that, is that what's responsible for the little bump in the
price?
Morris/ Kumi Morris with Engineering. Um, the...actually the...the slight jump in the price was
due to some structural changes that we made from, um, moving some stairs to be able to
accommodate the ramp, and also the office spaces, and so, um, there are currently stairs
from the City Attorney's office down into the Library. We had to slide the stairs over to
be able to accommodate the ADA ramp to the women's restroom. So, minor structural
changes to be able to accommodate that.
Wright/ So, roughly how much does the...the ramp add to the total price?
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Morris/ Oh, I'll have to get back to you on that. (mumbled) but, yeah, I think it was a, believe it
was a 12% increase.
Bailey/ Okay. Is that what you needed?
Wright/ Pardon me?
Bailey/ That what you needed?
Wright/ Yeah.
Bailey/ Other agenda items?
ITEM 10. CONSIDER A RESOLUTION AUTHORIZING THE MAYOR TO SIGN THE
HAZARD MITIGATION GRANT PROGRAM (HMGP) PROPERTY
ACQUISITION PROJECT APPLICATION AND DESIGNATING THE CITY
MANAGER AS THE AUTHORIZED REPRESENTATIVE FOR THE HMGP
APPLICATION.
ITEM 11. CONSIDER A RESOLUTION APPROVING THE USE OF COMMUNITY
DEVELOPMENT BLOCK GRANT (CDBG) FUNDS FOR THE LOCAL MATCH
TO THE HAZARD MITIGATION GRANT PROGRAM (HMGP) PROPERTY
ACQUISITION PROJECT.
Correia/ Item l l ...the resolution approving use of Community Development Block Grant funds.
I just wanted to confirm that the resolution...because it was clear in the comment that it
was the supplemental CDBG funds, but it didn't seem as clear in the...that it was...
Karr/ I'd like to note you have a packet of materials in your handout tonight, Items 10 and 11,
just to...so you know, including a new map.
Davidson/ Is your question, Amy, as to whether or not we have discretionary use of these funds?
Correia/ No. My question is that...that this resolution approving the use of CDBG funds only
refers to the supplemental funds. It doesn't refer to our regular block grant. I just wanted
to make sure that that's clear, that then later we're not using our entitlement block grant
(noise on mic) separate (several talking) okay.
Bailey/ Okay, since David is also here, are there any other questions on Items 10 or 11?
Davidson/ Yeah, one thing that, uh, we did not include in your packet, but we have the
information if you'd like it, is any, uh.. .
Bailey/ Jeff, I'm having a hard time hearing you.
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Davidson/ Excuse me (noise on mic). Um, is...is we have cost break-down, uh, either of the
program elements or between the, uh, federal amount, state amount, and local, and so-
called local amount, which'll be through CDBG funds. So if there's any information.
The total project cost is $11.5 million, um, and you know, as you've heard me say before,
I just want to keep reiterating that, you know, the glitzier things, the flood walls, the
levees -they get a lot of publicity, but what you're doing through this program is more
effective than those. You are reducing the risk for these properties to zero.
Hayek/ The, um, Item 11, the additional, what we're talking about, the additional CDBG funding.
Was the IDED's message, uh, that it would provide us additional funding to be used
solely for the local match, the sole purpose of the additional funding.. .
Davidson/ That's correct. They're doing that throughout the state, aren't they? Yeah.
Hayek/ Yeah, not doing more or, but, meet that cap.
Davidson/ Right. To match...so that the communities out there in the state that are using the
HMGP funds can basically afford the HMGP funds.
Champion/ (mumbled) any money out of our general budget for this? Okay, thank you.
Bailey/ Okay, any other questions or clarifications on those items?
Correia/ So, the application...there's amap, we just got this.
Purdy/ Yeah, sorry. It was just done about an hour ago.
Correia/ (laughter) Right!
Davidson/ I don't think it's radically different from the last map though. (several talking)
Purdy/ There was, uh, I think two properties that, uh, decided to go "no" so...
Correia/ Okay, so, all the properties not interested... all homeowners not interested are not in the
buyout.
Purdy/ Right.
Correia/ So there's...(several talking)
Davidson/ We're pretty sure...well, as you've heard us again say the people can back out right up
to closing, and we're hoping.. .
Correia/ But can't opt in, is I guess what I'm saying.
Davidson/ That's correct.
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Purdy/ We can...uh, I shouldn't say that. We can do a separate amendment at a later date, um,
you know, that's uh, it kind of depends upon the timeframe too, I mean, the ultimate,
ultimate deadline is I think May 30th, but some might want to...if the City or someone
wanted to do it at a later date, uh, it might be pushing that timeline. So...
Davidson/ And again, our long-range strategy, I think you asked the question at the last meeting,
Amy, is to ultimately buyout all 57 properties in the 100-year flood plain and reduce the
risk, again, to zero (mumbled)
Hayek/ Tomorrow night are you going to introduce this a little more thoroughly for the public's
benefit more than anything? I think thafd be a good idea.
Davidson/ ...provide an overview of what we're doing, Matt?
Hayek/ Yeah.
Purdy/ Sure.
Bailey/ That'd be great! (mumbled)
Champion/ And L .. and I think it's important to make a point that these are (mumbled) that were
granted (noise on mic) purpose, because I've had questions from the public. Are...are we
going to have less money available for the other things that we do with that money, so, I
think that's important.
Davidson/ No, this...I mean, this is $11.5 million, uh, coming to our community to reduce flood
hazard in the future. Um (noise on mic)
Champion/ Thank you.
Bailey/ Okay. Other agenda items? I do have a question on 13...this is the, um, agreement with
Stanley Consultants, also flood theme. Um, it looks like we're talking about (can't hear)
barriers and levee builder, but we're not modeling a levee or any kind of Normandy Drive
elevation?
ITEM 13. CONSIDER A RESOLUTION APPROVING EXECUTION OF AN
AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE CITY OF IOWA CITY AND STANLEY
CONSULTANTS, INC TO PROVIDE ENGINEERING CONSULTANT
SERVICES EXTENDING AN ORIGINAL CONTRACT TO PROVIDE
RECOMMENDATIONS REGARDING TEMPORARY FLOOD CONTROL
METHODS AND TO ASSIST CITY STAFF AT TWO PUBLIC
NEIGHBORHOOD MEETINGS.
Davidson/ I'm sorry, Madame Mayor.
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Bailey/ ...not asking them to model, um, any kind of elevation of Normandy Drive? Is that
correct? That was something that was thrown out there and I just want to...
Davidson/ Uh, I believe their existing work has taken into consideration the possibility of
elevating Normandy Drive.
Bailey/ All right, thanks.
Davidson/ At least...that intersection of Normandy and Manor I think is the low point, and I
think that's part of their existing contract.
Bailey/ Okay, okay. That's maybe what stuck in my head. Thanks.
Lombardo/ And...and something can come out of, you know, the neighborhood meetings that
may alter the scope of services they provide. This is just meant to get the contract in
place so that we can use their services up to a certain amount.
Bailey/ Okay. Thank you.
Correia/ One of my questions on, actually, that for the two, um, public meetings, if one of those
public meetings would be a hosted City Council meeting...that we would be...Council
would be there.
Lombardo/ They're with two separate groups -one is with Parkview Terrace and one is with the
Idyllwild neighborhoods.
Bailey/ But you're asking if...if we wanted to all attend? Okay. That's possible, right?
Lombardo/ Yeah, I mean, if Council wants to attend and there's a majority and you want to post
it...
Dilkes/ Are you talking...you're saying you want to participate as a Council?
Correia/ Yes, yes, I mean, I think that...or we add that they come and do, I mean, I think that the
Council should be receiving the presentation.
Lombardo/ Yeah, the initial meetings, I think, are to open up the dialogue and kind of set the
context and framework for working with the neighborhoods and exploring ideas.
Ultimately, everything is coming back to Council for decision making.
Correia/ Right. But I mean, it seems like there'd be benefit in having the Council be present for
what's being presented, the type of discussion, I mean, because I think there's a different
quality of hearing back kind of second-hand of what happened and you know, hear from
a few people what they thought, versus participating, being there. You know, feeling the,
how the...does that make any sense?
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Bailey/ Are you suggesting changing the scope of services to add a presentation to a Council
meeting, or it wouldn't change the scope of services to, um, post these two public
meetings?
Correia/ Either.
Bailey/ Either. Okay.
Wright/ Either meeting or.. .
Correia/ Either option.
Wright/ Either option, okay.
Bailey/ It would probably change the scope of services if...if you wanted an additional
presentation.
Correia/ Yes, exactly.
Bailey/ So, are others interested in that, or is posting...do we have concerns about, we want to
expand the scope of services, I guess is the fundamental question, with the agenda item.
Hayek/ Well, does it? I mean, it states that at our request they will attend City Council meetings,
and maybe...maybe that covers this kind of scenario. (several talking)
Dilkes/ It depends...I think you need to define what you're wanting to do (mumbled)
Bailey/ And that's what we're trying to do...here.
Dilkes/ ...what you're wanting to do at the meeting. If, and I'm not sure that since we're having
one meeting with Idyllwild and one with...with Parkview that it would make sense for
Council to be at one and not the other.
Bailey/ Right.
Dilkes/ Um, if you want to just go and observe and hear the dialogue, and I think it's supposed to
be primarily a dialogue between staff and...and the..:the community members about
what they're interested in. If you want to just go and listen to that, we don't have to post
it as a Council meeting. If you want to somehow participate in that meeting, I think you
need to say what it is...what you...how you envision your participation, and then we will
have to make it a Council meeting, and we not only will have to post it, but we're going
to have to have people there taking minutes, etc.
Champion/ I don't think we should make it an official Council meeting. I think it's fine to go and
observe. I don't think we should be interacting.
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Davidson/ As Eleanor said, the purpose, Amy, that there's been frustration in the neighborhood
over what they perceive as a lack of communication. In fact, there just hasn't been a lot
of information, because we've been waiting to see how the HMGP grant application was
going to come out, before really putting the consultant team to work, developing the
alternatives. Now that we feel like we're at that point, we can present alternatives to the
neighborhood and get their feedback before we make decisions that then we go to you
for, for the ultimate decision making.
Lombardo/ In terms of contract with Stanley, I think it would accommodate presentation. I don't
know that we need to tinker with the contract and expand services, and we can always do
that at a later date, based on...we may need them for additional services beyond this that
we might come back to you for. So, I...I, you know, we know what we need out of'em,
at least for the term of this contract. We can always come back with an updated, uh,
letter agreement with them to amend this contract, or...or create a new contract if
services are needed.
Wilburn/ I'd like to point out that the meeting that was held after the Council meeting down at
the Senior Center, Council didn't have to stay, um, but that was an information
presentation type, and I thought there was a good ex...effective exchange of information
between, uh, the presenters, some of whom were not, you know, were from FEMA and
Homeland Security, all that, um, but it didn't add the constraints that a formal Council
meeting can add to that exchange. Sometimes it gets to be...um, unwieldy, not
necessarily afree-flow of information if the constraints of open meetings are put upon it.
So, I...that's, um, if that style of meeting can happen, that occurred -the one I'm talking
of, where you lead and kind of facilitated with, uh, perhaps given the...
Karr/ We posted that though.
Wilburn/ Did...did ya? Oh.
Karr/ Yeah, that was a (several talking)
Wilburn/ Well, I don't know that Council necessarily participated. We more just kind of sat and
listened, which...
Karr/ Right, but nonetheless it was posted. It was taped, and there was minutes kept. So that
possibility did exist, should Council Member wish to participate, that was...it didn't
happen!
Wilburn/ Right.
Karr/ But it was posted (several talking)
Wright/ ...possibility that if somebody will be asked by a member of the audience their
perspective, a Councilor there, so from that angle, it's not a bad idea to post it, even if we
all just keep quiet.
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Correia/ And would there be minutes taken? (several talking)
Karr/ There has to be.
Correia/ I mean...I understand that, but I mean, in this...in this...
Karr/ In the present configuration would there be minutes kept.
Correia/ Yes.
Bailey/ It does seem the intent of these is to gather information from the neighborhood, sharing
that with staff, with the consultants, and have staff bring us the recommendations for
discussion, which would be the open meeting discussion of it. Um, it...it doesn't seem
impossible that Council would attend these neighborhood meetings, but it seems that
that's probably not the best insertion of Council participation. It seems that we...we
should allow the consultants and ourselves, if we want to sit and listen, to hear the
feedback, allow that to be churned through in this process that's developed, and then hear
the recommendation from staff and the consultants. That seems to be the process that's
set forth in this consultant agreement.
Hayek/ I agree with that, and that's...from my memory, consistent with what we did with the
Public Library meeting last summer, and then the one at the Senior Center. (several
talking) We decided in advance we'd be there; we'd post it, um, at least we posted it for
the Senior Center one, but not inject ourselves into the give and take. Um...
Correia/ I'd be interested in there being minutes kept, whether it's a posted meeting or not.
Bailey/ And the consultant will...
Champion/ I don't think it's necessary.. .
Lombardo/ We don't take detailed meetings of our, or minutes, of our business meetings, as a
matter of course, and I, I mean...if you would like a formal report out, then it'd be
immortalized as, as part of a Council meeting. So, I mean, it'll be a matter of record at
that point, but as...just discussing the issues and formulating kind of ultimately
something that's going to come to you, I...I'm not going to get into the custom of taking
minutes that, I mean, at our meetings. You know, that's meant to work through the issues
and...it's going to be an iterant process. I envision there being several meetings with
these groups, and building, you know, bringing the information back and forth, and
updates to Council and presentations made along the way, so I...I think there's a vehicle
for getting information into record, um...
Bailey/ Are there specific concerns that you have regarding this?
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Correia/ I mean, I think that...that this is the, I think critical issue in these neighborhoods, and
with lots of different questions and potential policy decisions costing a lot of money and
changing the potential way the neighborhoods are, and I think that in community
meetings that there can be lots of things talked about that end up maybe not being
considered, not coming back, and I would want to be able to know everything that
potentially.. .
Champion/ You'll have to go and sit and listen.
Correia) I know. Well, I will (several talking)
Bailey/ I think that that's...I think that that's right, to get what you'd want from these, I think that
that's.. .
Correia/ So can we...
Wilburn/ Are those, I'm sorry.
Correia/ I just want to make sure that we have ample notice of when those meetings are
occurring, like a 30-day notice.
Wilburn/ I was going to ask, are they scheduled, because more of the constraint gets to be when,
I know how it is. I mean, we sit around trying to get our dates and calendars scheduled,
and that's a piece I wouldn't want to interfere or delay.. .
Correia/ I'm not talking about wanting to make sure it fits my schedule, but as long as we know
30 days in advance, and as long as it doesn't occur on the night of the scheduled Council
meeting.. .
Lombardo/ My understanding is that they are in the process, or have scheduled meetings already,
for this month. We were supposed to meet with them on the 10th, but they've invited the
Army Corps, uh, to attend, um, and...and have a discussion with them, and so...
Correia/ ...the neighborhood meetings.
Lombardo/ Parkview Terrace neighborhood. So, I want to say that...I've asked Rick, in fact I
emailed him this afternoon to give me the specific dates, um, and I'd rather not throw out
just guesses right now, and I'll follow up with you when those are posted, but it's not
going to be a 30-day notice, um, because it's already, they're already scheduled. In terms
of, we're happy to...(several talking)
Wilburn/ Before you go on with what you're going to suggest to do, if they're not, the piece I was
getting at is you started to add a caveat as to when we can meet, as long as it...and that's
where I want these to happen as soon as possible for the two neighborhoods, and that's a
kind of logistical thing with the open records. That's all I was saying.
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Champion/ I think the Council can be a hindrance to some of those things. I really do! I think a
lot of people are reluctant to speak when...when the Council members and public...also
the fact that they're going to have to be recorded and minutes taken. That adds another
expense and more staff time, and I think we ought to just leave them interaction with
whoever's supposed to interact.
Lombardo/ I'm happy to report out and provide you a summary of decisions made and just
capture what has transpired and where it's heading. Um, I mean, detailed minutes are I
think a little bit overboard.
Bailey/ And Rick is the key staff person who will be working with the neighborhoods?
Lombardo/ Uh, Rick is the point person, but we're going to have different staff, uh, from all the
other...various agencies in and out, as needed.
Bailey/ Okay. Other agenda items? All right. Info packet discussion, and I see Jen is here, and
there was just a little tiny memo that seemed to get a lot of attention about plastic bags, so
let's chat about that for a moment.
Information Packet Discussion (12/23):
Jordan/ Good evening, Council. Do you have specific questions, or should I give an overview
and...
Bailey/ Do we have specific questions for Jen?
Wright/ Starting off at the top of it, the first recommendation which ended up being staff
recommendation, um, given the economy and the State budget, how big a chance do you
think we have with the DNR (mumbled) alternative program grants are going to be
available?
Jordan/ Uh, those are actually available quarterly. Those are funded through Landfill funds, so
those are 100%, um, we've actually written two in the last three years and gotten both of
them. Um, so chances will be good...
Wright/ You don't think those funds are going to be redirected?
Jordan/ I think...no.
Wilburn/ Can you give us a, uh, can you walk us through, um, I mean, on one hand we might
presume what some of the difficulties and challenges are with plastic bags and the
Landfill. Can you walk us through some of the constraints and issues and problems that
cause so that, uh, it's a good reminder for us and for the public and the media that's
present, as to what is hoped to be avoided. For example, other than just bags blowing
around and Council trying to put its nose in retailers' business, uh, for example, are there
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any problems with the leach (mumbled) being formed at the Landfill cell and then all of
that. So could you walk us through that.
Jordan/ Sure. Um, well, the major issue is that they're made from petroleum, which is an
obvious one with the economy the way it is and just the, um, moving away from being
dependent on other countries for petroleum. Um, they do blow so they're a major litter
issue, um, Cedar Rapids actually (mumbled) um, Cedar Rapids is also considering
something recently and they've worked on a logo that's very catchy. I'll just say! So...
O'Donnell/ I'm not hearing you. What'd you say about Cedar Rapids?
Karr/ Yeah, I think you'll have to move that...
Jordan/ Okay.
Bailey/ Way up...yeah.
Jordan/ How's that? Better? All right. Cedar Rapids is also been considering doing something
similar, as well, and I'm not sure where they're at with it. Um, but they've...they've
definitely started on education, which was a major part of the first option, um, that staff
recommended. Um, some of the other issues are definitely the methane movement in the
Landfill. If something in the Landfill, biodegradable or not is covered with soil, um, with
the clay as we do it for the alternative daily cover, anything...um, the point of having
stuff in a Landfill is that we don't want it to break down, because that's when it has the
opportunity to reach the ground water. So, um, anything biodegradable or not isn't really
going to break down over the course of the 100 years, 150 years that we plan for the
Landfill to be there, and to be able to mitigate the issues with that. Um, that's...I'm going
to move aside a little bit from that, but that was one of the issues with looking at
biodegradable bags, is that even...even the biodegradable bags don't break down, and
they are more expensive for retailers. So, that's not necessarily even a better issue
than...than the plastic bags. Um...
Hayek/ How...how, assuming a biodegradable bag is buried alongside anon-biodegradable bag,
do you know what the difference is in terms of years or term of years before they...each
bag fades into dust?
Jordan/ If we do our jobs right at the Landfill it should be zero difference. Neither one of'em
should break down. We don't want air, we don't want light getting in there, because
again, that's when the...if they start breaking down, that's where there's a possibility
of...of leaching into the ground water.
Hayek/ But we get no biodegradable benefit from using biodegradable bags.. .
Jordan/ Basically.
Hayek/ ...in the Landfill situation where we cover them.
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Jordan/ Basically, yes.
Wilburn/ And we're required to monitor the, um, the water, the leachant that comes, filters
through the, so it doesn't contaminate, um, ground water sources...
Jordan/ Right.
Wilburn/ ...etc., etc.
Jordan/ The other thing that...that we deal with at the Landfill, and this, um, there maybe a
slight difference going back to your question with biodegradable and non-biodegradable
bags, um, the movement of methane is a little bit easier through biodegradable bags, so
that we can capture it and flare it off, or potentially at some point use it for energy, um,
versus it being captured in a plastic bag that's not breaking down at all. So
there's...there's aslight benefit there for a biodegradable bag, but I...I'd say overall it's
probably very minimal, especially for the cost involved with those. Um, so those are
kind of the...the overall, um, environmental consequences, I guess.
Wilburn/ Okay, thank you.
Bailey/ Thanks.
O'Donnell/ They keep just mentioning, um, plastic grocery bags. How about all the other plastic
bags?
Jordan/ No one else has really gone there yet. Um, plastic...
O'Donnell/ Maybe we should though, and the plastic water bottles that get...get thrown down.
You know, I think anybody who's ever carried a paper grocery bag across the parking lot
and had it break is ready to stone us for even thinking about this. What a wonderful
opportunity this would be for maybe pushing more recycling.
Jordan/ Certainly. Um, that's a major part of any option that we'd be looking at, um, something
less...less than 2% or less than 1 % of plastic grocery bags actually get recycled. Water
bottles I think it's maybe 5%. So, um, the other part and this isn't really touched upon in
option one, but this, by leaving it open to a reduction campaign, we could also include
things like Styrofoam or water bottles, and that's something that staff has looked at in the
past, but hasn't really gotten to as afull-fledged education campaign. So those things
could definitely be rolled into a more general education -waste reduction education
campaign.
Wright/ Do you have any evidence that such a campaign actually works? I...I have some grave
doubts that that'll make much of a difference, if we really want to have an effect on the
plastic bags. Pardon? (several talking)
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Bailey/ ...McDonald's. They're paper, they're cardboard now. They're not Styrofoam. That was
an education campaign.
Wright/ You got it.
Jordan/ Yeah, there weren't any regulations involved with that. I share your concerns, certainly,
especially when we have so many programs available in Johnson County and Iowa City
that don't necessarily see as much use as they certainly could, um, but I think it's a good
first step, and it would have to be involved with any of these. So, if, you know, in six
months we look back and say, 'This has not been effective at all. We want to move
towards a ban,' or a tax, I think we've already put a lot of effort into it, and then we can
make that decision.
Wright/ How would we measure progress?
Jordan/ I think a partnership with the retailers would be a major key in this, and it comes down to
how many bags they use. It's costing them to use the bags, so if we can save them on that
end, even if they can cut like 25%, um, that's something that they...I would assume
contract pretty easily, because of how much they have to spend on those.
Wright/ Have you spoken to retailers about this already at all?
Jordan/ Just kind of in passing.
Wright/ And...interest?
Jordan/ Uh, my gut feel from a couple conversations I've had is that a ban or a tax would be not
well received.
Wright/ But what about...what about an education...
Jordan/ That's probably pretty obvious. Education, I think it would be more of a positive
partnership than, um, creating a relationship that might be seen as more antagonistic.
Wright/ (mumbled)
Jordan/ Antagonistic.
Champion/ Um, with the DNR grants, um, those could be used for education.
Jordan/ Definitely. Yep.
Champion/ Could they be used, um, could grocery stores get a grant to give people bags?
Jordan/ Good question. That was actually one of the things I'd included in here, um, and we
wouldn't necessarily want to include it in ours, but we could certainly help do a template
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for a grant, to have them do it. The thing is, most of them are already doing that. So,
that's another...um, another...opportunity.
Champion/ But they're not giving them to you.
Jordan/ No, they're not giving them away, but they can buy them much cheaper than say the City
of Iowa City Landfill could do it, especially because we would want to do, you know,
100% organic or recycled plastic or something cool. So they're, you know, they have the
green ones; the Co-Op has theirs. Numerous stores in town are already doing that, and
they're actually really decently priced. So...
Correia/ A dollar.
Jordan/ Right.
Wright/ Pardon me?
Correia/ A dollar. To get a bag at Hy-Vee. The option...this option three, the...putting a fee on
grocery bags. Do we have the ability to do that?
Dilkes/ Probably not.
Correia/ Okay. (laughter) I didn't think so.
Jordan/ It's been done in a couple cities and it's definitely being contested.
Correia/ Okay.
Dilkes/ Specifically in Iowa, um, cities do not have the power of taxation. (several talking)
Correia/ Um...
Wright/ Cou1d...I'm sorry. Were you...
Correia/ Go ahead. (laughter) I had another question.
Wright/ Go ahead.
Correia/ Okay. In the, um, when you talked about in option one writing a grant to...to get an
intern or something, but in our fiscal year 10 budget, there is an environmental
coordinator position. Is that...would that position have the ability to, I mean, do we
envision that as something, this type of education?
Jordan/ Definitely, and...and of course myself too, there's definitely...I can carve out time for
this, um, I just can see this getting very time-intensive, especially working with the
retailers and...and um, getting the input that we would need from them to make it be the
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best education program possible. So either way, with or without a grant, I think this
could go forward.
Bailey/ Mike, you had a question?
Wright/ Um, actually this is a question for Eleanor, kind of following up on Amy's question
about option three and whether we can do that. We looked at option two, um, be an
ordinance to prohibit free plastic bags. Do we have even the ability to do that?
Dilkes/ An ordinance to prohibit...
Wright/ Giving away free plastic bags at the grocery store (several talking)
Bailey/ Option two.
Wright/ ...might even charge for them. Option two.
Dilkes/ Oh, I think that's probably within the realm of possibility.
Wright/ Within the realm, okay.
Hayek/ You know, plastic bags seem like a fairly late arrival to the recycling movement, and, I
don't...are you aware of how long receptacles have even been available at retail stores or
at City Carton?
Jordan/ Not very. Um, maybe two or three years. City Carton...
Champion/ No, much longer than that! At City Carton.
Jordan/ At City Carton, sure, but it's just become, um, more fashionable I think to have them at,
especially big box retailers. A lot of places have encouraged people to reuse them for
years, um, the Co-Op comes to mind. You know, they have a re-use bin there, but other
than City Carton I don't think retailers have been doing it for more than a couple years.
Champion/ And then the problem with them though, they're recycled into something that can't be
recycled. So, you...that's a problem. (several talking)
Wright/ ...it's a single re-use.
Champion/ It's a single re-use, and that's...no, that's a problem.
Jordan/ And the other issue is that even if they're collected at retail stores, that's not guaranteeing
that they're actually making it to be recycled. They still might end up at the landfill.
So...as much as I hate to say something like that, it's very true.
Wright/ Unfortunately there's precedent for that. So.. .
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Bailey/ Connie, this was the issue that you brought up is, I mean, did this cover some of the
options.. .
Champion/ I think the report, the options are there. I still think the only way to deal with it is to
ban them, um, but I'm willing to try the education route, just because I'm...what bothers
me about them is, they're not like newspaper that can be recycled and recycled and
recycled, or brown bags that can be recycled, recycled, and recycled. They're recycled so
all of us diligent recyclers take all of our plastic bags to City Carton and put them in those
big containers that they have, and then they get recycled into fabric. (several talking)
...fabric, and then they can't be recycled again, so we, but maybe they get into something
useful like lumber that...that's okay. Um, I mean, L ..I still would like to see them totally
gone, but I understand. I think this...this memo is excellent and really has a lot, and I did
not realize that, um, what you told us about the Landfill, that all those bags that go in the
Landfill, none of'em ever, they don't do anything. They just lay there, like a vegetable.
So, um (several talking and laughter)
Hayek/ Vegetables degrade! (laughter)
Jordan/ The vegetables degrade a little bit. That's what produces the methane. (laughter)
Champion/ So I would...if we can get the retailers, because I know they're not really encouraged
about banning plastic bags, to help us educate people, to use as few as possible. Um, it
would be interesting to see if we can actually decrease the amount being used, plus the
fact they're made out of oil, which is really...I mean, we all know about the oil crunch.
So, uh, I'm willing to go along with working with the retailers to see if they can reduce
this, um, reduce the use and people can reduce the use, including myself, but Mike is
right. There's plastic bags used everywhere. The dry cleaners, um, department stores.
Bailey/ Our recyclable newspapers come in plastic bags often (several talking)
Champion/ Yeah, they do! (several talking) Um, but I think just the fact that we've brought this
up, I've gotten tons of comments on it. I'm sure all of you have, pro and con, um, but it's
making the public aware of some of the problems with the way we use things in this day
and age, including myself. I'm not perfect. Almost, but not quite, but um (laughter) so
I'm (laughter and several talking) my mother would have said that! Um, I, um, would
like to try some of this education and working with the retailers to see if they can help us
find a way to reduce use, and I'd be willing to, um, tell 'em about these DNR grants that
give people reusable bags. I mean.. .
Correia/ It would be nice...before or, you know, as of our planning to do something like this,
to...to try and do some benchmarking, identify either just grocery stores or grocery stores
and big box, or something to ask them what was their use of plastic bags over the last 12
months, and then we can see what impact might be over (several talking) impact, yeah.
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Wright/ We have to have some type of data that we can report back, even if it's...if it's
essentially just observetal.
Jordan/ I think it wouldn't be too difficult to get actual numbers, because again, they have to
purchase the bags and that'll be on an invoice somewhere. So...
Bailey/ So, is there general consensus of...of giving option one a try, getting some benchmark
numbers, and then seeing, you know, in six months, nine months, a year how we're
doing?
Hayek/ Sure.
Wright/ I'd like to revisit this in say six months and see where we are.
Bailey/ I think that would be interesting.
Wright/ So, June?
Bailey/ Okay. Is that the direction...
Hayek/ Is that a realistic timeframe for you?
Champion/ Probably not.
Lombardo/ I think it's going to take, uh, a fair number of months just to get it up and running,
and...and coordinated, and I mean, we've got (several talking)
Wright/ The report could probably just be (several talking)
Bailey/ Or, it could be the, the starting numbers, what we're dealing with...
Wright/ The starting numbers even.
Bailey/ ...would be, I think, a...an adequate sort of report back.
Lombardo/ ...we set up a meeting to talk this through, in terms of just getting organized, and I
can report out what information we might be able to have (several talking)
Wright/ I think if we really pay attention to this, we're going to be revisiting this in a...nine
months to a year (mumbled) what the other options are.
Bailey/ And the suggestion of doing it regionally, I think is very...is certainly appealing to me, I
mean, and it's mentioned in the option, but I think that that will also take some time, but
it's also...the way we need to go. The regional, um, campaigns involving the cities of
Iowa City, Coralville, Johnson County, Public Health, and local environment -it's more
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of a regional initiative. So, that...that will also take time, but that will also potentially
increase the effectiveness of it. Okay.
Wilburn/ I think it would also be helpful, um, in the information as we go along, as part of the,
not only information provided for the Council, but for, uh, the education piece, is uh, we
don't often hear or talk about the...the end result of where, the impact on the Landfill,
and what we have to monitor, and I mean that's...I think that's an important piece because
it's, um, recycling in general, we tend to talk about the impact on us and my daily thing,
but we don't often hear about the impact on the Landfill, on the rivers and the, you know,
we don't hear the two together, um, and it's...it's too, uh, easy and the convenience of...of
pitching something away or doesn't necessarily get, um, whether it's, um, whether it's
hard numbers or budgetary numbers or the rate of that we're filling in Landfills, how
much we spend on new cells for the Landfill. I think that, and the challenges and
sometimes legal challenges cities face with trying to get space for landfill.
Bailey/ Yeah, I think...I think that's a very good point. Why we, why we are interested in
sticking our nose in, is there's a vested interest.
Wright/ And just the fact that it's essentially a little bag of toxics.
Bailey/ Yeah, there's that. Okay. Do you have what you need then, Jen?
Karr/ So we're not revisiting it in June. We're going to be waiting for Michael to give us a
memo...some sort of an update on...on...
Bailey/ I think our expectation is to hear something in six months.
Wright/ A report back in June.
Bailey/ Yes. That's our expectation - is something, to report back a memo in June. Thanks.
Jordan/ Thank you.
Bailey/ Okay, any other info pack discussion items?
Correia/ I had, um, just a...briefly on the community program and event funding. We in the past
have had presentations from the applicants. Are we planning to do that again this...
Bailey/ We're going to discuss that with our meeting schedule tonight, right?
Karr/ We were going to discuss that with the meeting schedule, and confirm some dates and
times, and there'll be some information then go out based on that.
Correia/ Right. So we were planning on doing that.
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Karr/ We were always planning on doing it...we usually get a little bit more into the budget
process to double-check and be sure we're ready for that step, but yeah.
Correia/ Okay. So then I have...and this is I guess just being proactive on two applications that
we have, from New Life and Destiny CFI Ministries, both...they're two applications
seem more like a Aid to Agency, social service funding type application, um, and I know
for example the back to school picnic, with the school supplies. There was a
comprehensive Consultation of Religious Communities effort last year to gather together
to get school supplies to all kids (mumbled) the County, and they did that, and um, there's
no mention here of...of them being involved in that collaboration. So I guess I was
wondering if we could ask our JCCOG human services' planner to follow up on those
specific applications to find out about, because I would want to know about that, um...
Bailey/ Do we have a mechanism to get specific questions to a presenters before they present, so
they can cover those questions in a, in their presentation?
Karr/ We've not had that mechanism.. We certainly can start one.
Bailey/ I think if...
Correia/ ...new applications that don't really...
Bailey/ I don't think that's a bad thing for any... any of these applications. Another board that I'm
on, that's what we do. We simply get them to a point person and those people...
Karr/ Why...why don't you send them to me, even email, and I can communicate as I set up the
appointments with them, because it may make a difference in who they send that evening
for the presentation if there's specific questions to address.
Bailey/ So if we have specific questions for the community events and we'll talk a little bit about
this with scheduling, and board and commission community events presentations. You
should get those to Marian.
Hayek/ Roughly when will these be held? Or at least when will we...
Karr/ Well, right now we're looking at January 28th.
Hayek/ All right. On one of these applications is, um, is the Jaycee's letter about fireworks, and
whether we approve it or not, I mean, I hope we can reach a decision that will allow us to
take on (mumbled) or fund somebody else to do it, or whatever we do, I just don't want to
get too close to an important deadline like that, that's important to the (several talking)
Karr/ Michael has offered me the opportunity to facilitate (laughter) the fireworks this year. I'm
going to set me off, I think! (laughter) Uh, it will set me off. So, I am going to be
working, and that is a goal, along with many other folks within the City, and outside on
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making that happen. So, we're aware of the deadline and we're aware of the desire to
make it (several talking). Yeah. (several talking)
Champion/ That is funny!
Hayek/ Sounds great!
Bailey/ Okay. Any other info packet...packet items? All right. Let's move into our discussion
on underage and overconsumption of alcohol.
Underage and Overconsumption of Alcohol (IP2, 3, 4):
Karr/ And if I could, the lavs do have to be worn a little bit higher. I'm not getting levels on
some of you. So...
Bailey/ Okay. Eleanor, would you like...you're going to overview your memo? Okay.
Dilkes/ Um, I'm going to (noise on mic) proposals made in my memo, um, and then Bob Miklo
from...the Senior Planner, is going to review the zoning issue. Um, just by way of
introduction, staff is providing what we see as options that we can pursue legally, and
that we can reasonably enforce, um, it's certainly up to you all to do what...the balancing
of interests to determine which ones you want to pursue and... and which ones you don't.
Um, once that direction is given from the Council, you would anticipate doing a mailing
to establish (noise on mic) etc., um, and you certainly will get the feedback at your
meetings when these things appear on your formal agenda. We have not done that to
date, because frankly we don't know yet which things Council wants to pursue. Um, I
think the memo is fairly explanatory, and you can see at the end I'm just going to ask you
the questions about, um, what you want to do, and what you want to pursue, but just
briefly, um, with respect to liquor license renewal, I think there's really two components
to that. The first is using the form that we've given you for both the Police Department
review and the Fire Department review, in an attempt to, um, address, make sure that we
address systematically at each renewal kind of the more salient, uh, factors. That's the
first goal of the form, and then the second one is a more substantive one and that is to use
a point, or a, uh, PAULA rate per visit, um, and have that cut off, if it's more than 1.1, or
if it's more than 1.000, uh, that there would be a recommendation for denial. Um, and as
I explained in the memo, I think we have the information that we need to support that, if
there would be an appeal to the ABD, and then after the ABD, that's the Alcoholic
Beverages Division, after the Alcoholic Beverages Division there can be an appeal to
District Court. That appeal can be either by, uh, the establishment, or by the City. Um,
so we are comfortable with that. We don't know frankly how the ABD would approach
that. Let's say the City Council denied a liquor license renewal because of a PAULA rate
in excess of 1. Um, you know, we'd have to see what the ABD...how the ABD would
approach that, but I think we've got some very good arguments that we could, uh, we
could support it. So, staff is...is making that recommendation. Um, we would suggest
that there be some time lag so that establishments that are in that position, um, currently
would have some time to bring that rate down. I think that notice would be...would help
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us support it at the...the state. Um, the employees consuming while working - uh, the
proposed ordinance has two components. One is simply the criminal penalty against the
employee who consumes while working, uh, the second is a civil component, which
would, um, let me back up for a minute. I kind of see this, the civil component as...as
something similar to the, um, the provision of the State code, which says that when an
establishment gets a license, they consent to, um, searches of the premises. There's no
warrant required. Um, and I think that's because it's a highly regulated business, and that
in order to secure the privilege of...of participating in that business, that's one of the
things that the State requires you to do is to consent to, um, warrant-less searches at any
reasonable, at any time business is open. Um, I don't, you know, I think without...while
a criminal penalty against the employee may...has impact on that particular employee, I
think for there to be any systemic change in the way establishments operate, there has to
be a license ramification. And that's why we've included the civil component, which um,
says that when you get a license from...issued by the City of Iowa City, um, you consent
to the, um, breathalyzing of, you know, your employees that are working. Um, we went
through a number of...of ways of doing this, at the staff level. Obviously, the easiest
way, easiest enforcement would be simply saying, if you are an employee of an
establishment, you can't drink in that establishment. Um, because that would avoid
games about I'm working, I'm not working, oh I just got up to help, I...etc. Um, but we
backed off from that and decided that the more reasonable approach was...was to, if you
are actually working, and we defined that very broadly as, um, acting for the benefit of
the establishment, um, then you cannot be consuming, because it's those people who need
to be alert and not under the influence, in order to accomplish some of the other things
we're hoping to accomplish. So that's where we ended up with that. Um.. .
Correia/ So, the, um, ramification for employee consume while working for the person is a
criminal penalty? And...and I, I'm not understanding what the penalty is for the
business.
Dilkes/ It would be those, if they have employees who are consuming while working, it would be
a factor to be considered in license renewals.
Correia/ Okay. So there wouldn't be a, there could be a civil fine assessed...similar to, I mean,
it's not exactly the same, but um.. .
Dilkes/ The City already has the authority to do the civil penalties and license ramifications for
those types of things.
Correia/ So there could be a civil fine...assessed. (several talking)
Dilkes/ Right, but it's limited to a thousand dollars for, um, a city, and frankly I don't...I continue
to believe that it's not the monetary penalties that are going to get you very far.
Correia/ But it could be both. We could have both things, or...
Dilkes/ It could be.
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Correia/ ...both penalties. I mean, I'm just...with our, with the, with our tobacco. If a business
sells to an underage, the person sells has the fine and then there's the fine on the business.
Dilkes/ Right, but that...that ratchets up to a sus...you know, to a period of suspension.
Correia/ Sure.
Dilkes/ Etc., and that I think is where you find (several talking)
Champion/ ...would be the same way.
Dilkes/ Yes.
Champion/ Um, if they serve alcohol to a minor.
Correia/ Right, but I mean, I also think...I think a basis for having a fine for the business, for
having an employee consuming while working, is that we're utilizing our staff to
breathalyze that person and write the, and the employee and to monitor that.
Dilkes/ But all these businesses come up for renewal every single year, and that...that, I think, is
the logical place to take all of this, I mean, we know, we have to do it. They come up for
renewal. We look at all that information every year. I mean, frankly getting civil
penalties through the process, you're...I don't think you're going to get too much farther
than you're going to get by simply looking at the information at the renewal.
Champion/ And I think also, I think there's some point in time where an individual's responsible
for themselves, and if we do go along with employees not, can't consume while they're
working, which I totally support, um, the employer is simply going to make sure that his
employees understand that, because it is going to depend on his liquor license renewal,
and so if the person decides to have a drink anyway, it may not be the employer's fault.
That person will probably certainly be fired. That's something they can (mumbled)
Dilkes/ I think the administrative process...I guess what I'm saying is the administrative process
you're going to have to set up to start imposing civil penalties upon a criminal penalty
being issued is going to take resources that I think you can accomplish the same thing
every time you look at a renewal. Um, okay. So, price specials -staff spent a lot of time
on this price specials' ordinance, um, I think...in order to make it do what you want it to
do, it's going to be fairly labor intensive, um, both in the Clerk's office, um, by the Police
Department, etc., but we have tried to draft one, uh, that we, um, think we can enforce.
Um, we talked a lot initially about what we would require the businesses to post. You
know, do they have to post for...and I'm not the alcohol person. Marian's my...but, you
know, what kind of (several talking) yes, resource (laughter) um, you know, do you
require them to post domestic beers and then non-domestic beers? Do you require them
to post...
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Karr/ Every well drink.
Dilkes/ Every well drink, or every, you know.
Karr/ The top shelf versus, you know, those type of issues.
Dilkes/ And we simply, it just seemed far too complicated to be telling them what they should
post. So simply the way the ordinance, as proposed, works is that we say what has to be
on the posting. How you chose to lump them together is...is your choice. I mean, if you
want to, if an establishment wants to have a price for every, um, imported beer and one
for every domestic beer, or if they want to break out the imported beers, and etc. Um,
that's up to them. Secondly, the prices have to remain in effect for a period of one week,
um, the idea being that if you can post different prices every day, then obviously you can
have price specials. Um, you also can't...you can't be lower than those prices or higher
than those prices, because what we didn't want to have happening is essentially people
doing aweek-long schedule for their specials, and then increasing the price on their non-
special days. Um, so those are some of the things that we, um, worked through. There
were issues raised about, um, well, if we're trying to get at cheap alcohol, should we put a
limit on when this applies. You know, a sale of more than $15.00 maybe would not be
covered by this ordinance. Um, or you know, expensive bottles of wine served on a
particular day would not be covered. Um, and in...in our minds that just...we expected
to see cheap wine and we expected to see big containers of things with straws. I mean,
that's the kind of history that this ordinance has, so if...if you're interested in pursuing it,
we...we caution you against those kinds of exceptions. I think that's about it for the price
specials one. Any questions about...price specials, and how we got to where we...
Champion/ I just want to ask one question about the price specials. Um, could we simply have
an ordinance that says you can't sell alcohol under wholesale value?
Dilkes/ We probably could.
Champion/ That would take.. .
Dilkes/ How are we going to know what that wholesale...
Wright/ Yeah, I...I had the same question, and how would you enforce it?
Dilkes/ I mean, there are...let me give you a little background. There are some, there's a number
of states that have pro...have laws that say you cannot sell, um, below that which you
regularly charge. Um, and we contacted some of those places to find out how do you
enforce this...
Champion/ Right.
Dilkes/ ...and really what we found out was that those ordinances have been around for so long,
or those, they're really state statutes. That they're kind of the culture. I mean, you
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just...you don't, they don't have price specials in these places that have had these state
statutes for a long time. They said if they have a problem, or if they think there's a
problem, they send someone in there to buy a drink on one day and they go back in the
next...the next day and see if, you know, it's the same price.
Champion/ Oh, I bet we could find people who'd be willing to do that (laughter).
Dilkes/ So, I know...and you can get more input from the Police Department if you...if you want
it, but that was not something they thought was going...that kind of enforcement scheme
was going to work very well. Um, so...that's what we ended up, this is what we ended up
with when we worked through all those issues.
Champion/ Wow! That's a lot of paperwork. Lot of paperwork.
Dilkes/ Um, and then the final thing was just increasing to the extent we can the penalty, the
criminal penalties against, um, the individuals, and that, um, as I explained in the memo
would be an increase in the under-19 offense. We...we currently, the fine is $250. We
have the ability to increase that to $500, uh, which with surcharge and court costs would
be at $710. We can't increase the PAULA fine, because it's set by State code. Um, and
we'd also recommend increasing the, uh, the violation of the specials, uh, restrictions to
the maximum, as well.
Correia/ And then the issue, so the fine on the under-19 is based, is on the individual, and with
the recommendation that you had with using the PAULA rates as the license, so there's
no...civil penalty against a business for having under-19 in their establishment, after a
certain time...after the...
Dilkes/ We currently have a provision that allows, um, them to be issued a civil, a municipal
infraction, if the circumstances show that...that they (mumbled)
Bailey/ Other questions before we just walk through these fundamental questions that...that are
in, at the end of the memo.
O'Donnell/ On the consuming while working, you know, I do agree with that, but you know,
we're assuming for this to be effective that the owner of the bar's going to be there each
hour that the bar's open, and I don't think that's realistic.
Champion/ An owner doesn't have to be there.
O'Donnell/ Well, but I mean, to supervise and to watch. Is there, you know, it's his license on
the line. You know, you can tell somebody you will not consume this, and uh, they
(several talking)
Champion/ All employees have rules that employers make. I have rules.
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O'Donnell/ That's what I'm getting to, can you have a, an employee agreement form, you know,
these are my rules, and uh, these will be abided by. It gives the, uh, bar owner an
opportunity, um, to leave the premises occasionally. I mean, there's got to be something.
Wright/ I think that would be the responsibility of the operator, to have an agreement with his
employees.
O'Donnell/ Well, that's true, Michael, and while he's there he can enforce it.
Correia/ But I mean...
O'Donnell/ Occasionally...
Wright/ When Connie's out of the store, I don't think her employees dip into the till.
Champion/ No!
Wright/ You know what's wrong, and it's wrong, and you don't do it.
Champion/ Or, you know, or employee theft is a major...problem.
O'Donnell/ This is based on the bar owner being there to supervise each and every hour of the
day.
Champion/ Well, I don't have to be there to supervise. (several talking)
O'Donnell/ But we're not talking about regulating clothing stores, Connie. We're talking about
people that...
Correia/ We're talking about management of employees, and making, and having clear
expectations of what is appropriate or inappropriate to do at work. Everybody in any
work place has.. .
Champion/ Has rules.
Correia/ ...employee policies and procedures they have to follow at work. It doesn't matter if
your boss is there or not.
O'Donnell/ But we're changing it right now.
Correia/ But...
O'Donnell/ Potentially.
Correia/ So?
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O'Donnell/ So, I'm...
Wright/ Well, it's just another responsibility.
O'Donnell/ There has to be a protection level in there for... for a business owner. His license is
on the line.
Dilkes/ I think...I think the dress shop and the bar are completely different, but in the other way
than what you're suggesting. The...alcohol, it's a highly regulated business. As I said in
the, when I told you what the assumptions were for the proposals we were making, um,
under the State code the actions of the employees of the bars are the actions of the bar
itself when it comes to licensing issues. Um, a good example are the sales to minors. I
mean, if...if a, if an establishment has an employee that sells to minors, and that happens
so many times, four times or whatever it is, their license can be revoked for that.
And...and that's the nature of the business. And I think the proposals are...whether you
chose to, I mean, I understand that you could have a philosophical problem with that, but
I think when you look at the State code, um, there's...there's, it's based on the assumption
that it's a highly regulated business, i.e., the police can go in there and they can search the
premises without any warrant. The actions of the employees are considered to be the
actions of the establishment when it comes to licensing issues. That's the nature of that
business.
O'Donnell/ Well, I disagree with that, but...but I understand it.
Karr/ Also I just want to remind you, as well, is that our current ordinance right now requires
every liquor license to also designate a manager to be on site during operating hours, and
that has been in force for some time, and you suspended, you've heard, had hearings on
license holders who have been cited because there was not a manager on duty, or the
manager on duty at that particular time, and it cost them their license. So it's not the
owner. There must be a management person during operating hours, whether it's the
owner or someone that the owner designates. That's been a requirement.
Dilkes/ Should we go through the questions?
Bailey/ Yes. (several commenting)
Dilkes/ Okay. First one -which initiatives do you wish to pursue, um, the first one is use of the
proposed license renewal forms.
Champion/ Yes.
Correia/ I liked the form.
Wilburn/ Yes, uh-huh.
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Dilkes/ Okay. Majority for the forms. And what we're proposing with those is to, um, you
would actually see them when there was a recommendation for denial. Um, they would
be in the file in other cases.
Hayek/ Can you tell us why 1.0 is...
Dilkes/ Well, I'm just...that's the next question. We'll deal with...that's a substantive question
that we'll deal with separately. (several talking) Just the forms. I thought I'd start
(several talking)
Bailey/ Start easy and wind us up!
Dilkes/ Okay. (several commenting) The second is whether, um, you wish to deny the renewal
of a license for an establishment with a PAULA rate of greater than 1.00 per visit, with at
least 18 visits during the 12-month renewal period, and we would begin that July 1, 2009,
or some...we have some period of time before it would go into effect (mumbled)
Bailey/ ...did you have a question regarding that?
Hayek/ As a matter of fact I did! (laughter) Uh, can you explain the 1.0 number and why that's
the number employed in this proposal?
Dilkes/ We looked at the PAULA report, which I think was attached to my memo, um, and these
statistics have been kept by the Police Department for some time now. Um, we looked
at, um, number of visits and the rates that we were getting, and it looked to us like, um,
number one, it's possible to have your PAULA rate below 1.0 because we have evidence
of that. Um, while they tend, those rates higher than 1.0 tend to be associated with larger
establishments. Um, we have larger establishments that have rates under that. Um, we
have establishments that have lots of visits and don't have rates that high. Um, so it was
kind of a combination of things that lead us to the conclusion that we thought 1.0 was
reasonable. Um, with the actual number of PAULA charges that you have when you get
up to that level, um, I think it would be difficult for an establishment to argue that they
don't know that's happening in their bar. I think it would be difficult for them to argue,
not that they won't, but I think we have responses to this that, um, there are not measures
they can take to try and get those rates lower, um, so all that kind of figured into the...the
analysis. Um, we have had one in the guidelines the Police Chief currently uses.
It's...it's set at 1.5. Um, but...but with no automatic, um, denial if you're below that.
Um, that's a lot. Um, we've looked at Ames and what their experience...theyhaue an
under-21 ordinance and they use, um, minors on premises as a... as a factor to consider in
their renewals, and I think they've seen support from the ABD for that. Um, certainly one
can argue, well, it's different when you let someone in, because once they're in they have
access to alcohol. Frankly, my response to that is, if you can't control the access to
alcohol within your establishment, then you should consider an under-21 policy at the
door. Um, so I'm comfortable from a legal perspective with that...that cut-off.
Bailey/ Other questions or comments regarding that?
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Wright/ I'm actually comfortable with that...with that number, and the notion...one of the things
that I, when I look at the PAULA report though is the number of places that we never hit.
Bailey/ Right.
Wright/ And that's a concern for me. That might be something that Sam could better address,
um, but it's entirely possible that there are places where no or few visits that actually
could have higher PAULA rates. And there's a significant number that we just don't visit.
Dilkes/ I think there's a couple responses to that from a legal perspective. I'll let Sam address it
from a...from an enforcement perspective. Number one, the fact that, uh, the person next
to you was speeding and wasn't stopped.. .
Wright/ Oh, exactly!
Dilkes/ ...is irrelevant, to whether you were speeding. Um, secondly, we're doing it on a per
visit rate, not the number, and...and really, the more you're visited, one might suspect
that your rate would drop. Um, because there's more chance to...to not get (several
talking) you know. So, from a legal perspective, I don't have a problem with that, and I
think that, um, from an enforcement perspective, as I said in the memo, the police
have...whether you want some baseline that everybody's got to get hit so many, or get
visited so many times, I can understand that, but I think from an enforcement perspective,
the police have to be able to go and focus their efforts where they see the...there are
problems. And if we're going to start doing 18 visits for everybody that holds a liquor
license, I suspect the department's going to need some more resources.
Lombardo/ Yeah. Sam can jump in here in a minute, but we're spending a lot of time
discussing...nowtye've been talking internally about the ability to add power shifts or
move staffing around, and uh, we're looking at our ability to capture data to know
definitively how we allocate staffing and...and can anything be done. I think the
assumption, and...of the department is that we can't, because there's enough activity
throughout the day. We're looking at that, you know, we're testing that and hopefully
we'll be able to use data to demonstrate that, but it's going to take time and I don't know
that we concurrently capture that level of (mumbled) detail with the computer systems
that we have. We're hopeful to be implementing in the next few months to be able to
capture much more specific (mumbled) data, help support arguments for staffing one way
or another. Uh, I'll let... Sam has much more experience in terms of how we staff and
deploy. I'll let him speak to, you know, why we focus on certain bars now or whatever
else he wants to add, but we...we've been discussing this.
Wright/ One definition - what's a power shift?
Lombardo/ Power shifts are...are, um, a shift where if you know there is opportunity for
heightened activity certain time, you...you'd saturate that with, um, additional officers or
you structure shifts so that they're overlapping, so that you have increased presence
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during that period of time, as opposed to a standard shift when you have "X" number of
officers on the street.
Wright/ Okay. Thank you.
Hargadine/ Um, most of those figures you see for PAULA enforcement are done by on-duty
personnel, and they do it within their beat, and they...it's usually a routine practice when
they have available time. Uh, you're...you're correct in that we don't make every, um, we
don't visit every particular liquor establishment throughout the city. Um, to enact some
of these rules, in order to be fair, that would be an expectation and it's going to require a
lot more staffing, uh, either on an overtime basis or...it just depends on how it's
implemented, but um, presently we go fishing where the fish are...
Champion/ Right.
Hargadine/ ...and, um, we get...it's either complaint-based. We get reports from the University
on...on information...they usually interview every person that gets a PAULA. Um, and
so we know where they're getting them, and then that dictates where we go for
enforcement, as well.
Dilkes/ There's also a, um, safety measure because you cannot...the way it's structured is unless
an establishment has at least 18 visits.
Wright/ Right.
Dilkes/ You wouldn't be (both talking) automatic denial anyway. So, if the Police Department,
for instance, through its channels of information sees, learns that they think some of that
underage drinking has shifted to a different establishment, then they can start visiting that
establishment, um, and see what they (mumbled)
Champion/ Well, it seems logical to me that you go where the fish are, and I mean,
nobody...minors are probably...aren't going to go into Pagliai's and get a beer, um,
because they might see their mother there. I mean, so (laughter) you gotta use some
common sense when you're under age and trying to get a drink somewhere. You're not
going to go to Hy-Vee or Pagliai's or my house or whatever, I mean, you don't want to
run into .. .
Wright/ You charge? (laughter)
Lombardo/ The ordinance as written, we feel that...that we can support it with staffing levels
that we have now, cert...but, if there's an expectation for broader, um, or more evenly
distributed, um, inspection policy, then that is going to require additional, uh,
observations and discussions about staffing, and we're not prepared to...to offer, you
know, "X" number of visits per officer or how many we're going to have to add.
It's...this is a discussion we're having. We think there's general need for broader, uh,
enforcement in areas outside of PAULA's, as well. It's something that we're starting to
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look at. I've asked for data. We're working, we're stepping into it, but I want to be able
to make a reasoned proposal to you if we're going to ask for additional staffing. I don't
feel like I have the data or...or understanding of how we deploy and what the needs are
and when they are to be able to make those recommendations right now.
Dilkes/ Okay. So, we're still at the PAULA rate being used, um, the 1.0 per visit. More than that
as being automatic denial of renewal. Is there, are there a majority of you that want
(mumbled)
Bailey/ Are people interested in that?
Champion/ I'm interested in it.
Bailey/ Me too.
Wilburn/ Yes.
Hayek/ Yeah, I mean, I think there are two reasons that this piece of the proposal appeals to me.
First, it's entirely reasonable to expect that a law that's on the books already is not being
violated more frequently than every time we walk into an establishment, and this doesn't
say you can't have any violations. It just means that the odds have to be less than 1.0 that
when we come in, over the aggregate, you're going to have, uh, this kind of activity
inside the establishment. Um, and I think the second reason I like this, and it's something
we talked about a few months ago, is that it allows the establishment to use their own best
judgment and enact their own policies, and use their own resources to police themselves,
and although it will require either maintenance of the resources we're bringing to bear on
this now, or maybe a slight increase, it doesn't require the kind of increase in resources
from the City's perspective, that, uh, some of these other proposals might...might require
of us. Creates a bright line, tells us the bar, community, this is what we expect and...and
you know, lastly, these numbers tell me that the majority of our establishments, large and
small, don't have an issue with this. They're already policing themselves, and they don't
have numbers that rise to the level of alarm.
Champion/ And it was part of the whole deal when we didn't go to 21 that they would have
monitoring to prevent this, and so I think it is up to them to control what goes on in their
establishment. And I...I don't have any problems with it. I think it's a good starting
point.
Bailey/ Okay.
Dilkes/ Okay. The price specials. What do you all think about that?
Champion/ I think that's an administrative nightmare. (several talking)
Bailey/ I agree! Is there interest in pursuing this?
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Champion/ We'd have to hire somebody to administrate it.
Bailey/ That looks like interest.
Wilburn/ I'm interested in pursuing what the Council may apparently be leaning towards, picking
and sticking with, and there does not appear to be enough interest on Council to pursue
this particular line so...
Bailey/ My concern with it is it becomes a moving target, difficult to enforce, and we will be
revisiting the ordinance constantly to, you know, I mean I think it's well written and
seems to broadly address some of the issues, but I think it's been a challenge, even what
we've had on the books. So...
Wright/ It...it is a challenge, although the...from the research that I've done, which is somewhat
limited, uh, it does seem that price specials and overconsumption frequently go hand-in-
hand. (several commenting) Particularly price specials and DUI's going hand-in-hand.
Uh, but...I'm not sure we can make it stick.
Correia/ (several talking) our current ordinance. There's a, it's not...this restrictive or specific on
price specials, but we do have...
Dilkes/ No. Our current ordinance does not prohibit price specials. It prohibits certain types of
specials, like two-for-one.
Correia/ Right, okay, but...
O'Donnell/ Happy hours.
Karr/ It's more limiting to the...
Dilkes/ No, it does not prohibit happy hours...
O'Donnell/ That's traditionally the two-for-one.
Karr/ It's...it's the method by which it is distributed. It was originally presented that way, but
after Council deliberation it was amended and...watered down, if you will, to...it's
basically, uh, atwo-for-one or limiting the...the serving, uh, one drink per person, a
pitcher of beer...two per person, but a pitcher. You can't just sell multiple pitchers to
one, to an individual. Those type of things. It did not regulate happy hour, um, in it's
final sense.
Dilkes/ It didn't regulate the price, and so the example I've given is that you...you can't do a two-
for-one, two beers for one, but you can reduce the price of each beer by half. And so I
think...I really do think that while the specials ordinance we have on the books kind of
maybe has some fluff value or whatever. I think it's...it's very limited in its ability to
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control, um, access to cheap alcohol. And so, um, I'm not saying that...that, I mean,
that's just one of your factors that I think you need to weigh.
Wilburn/ And there's a history on Council's past of not wishing to regulate prices, um, of alcohol.
Lombardo/ Although I will say, um, when we met with Professor Goldman, um, who is a
national expert on binge drinking, he did say that price is a factor. (several talking)
Wilburn/ And that's part of information that Councils past have been presented, but, uh, as a
whole, a majority of Councils past have not, just for your information, have not had an
interest in regulating, despite that information having been presented.
Champion/ I just wish there was some one-sentence rule we could have that was effective.
Wright/ I'm sorry, Connie. (several talking)
Bailey/ She wants aone-sentence ordinance.
Correia/ Well, and that would be that wholesale, right, but that we (several talking)
Dilkes/ We can do aone-sentence ordinance, and...and uh, you know, there...we have a lot of
ordinances on the books that are there with the hope that people will enforce, will do self-
enforcement. And, um, so we can do that. But I don't...I don't think that we'd probably
do a lot of targeted enforcement, but at the same time if we think that there's a particular
problem place, we can do the enforcement.
Champion/ Well, I think a lot of times bars are selling alcohol so cheap. It's cheaper than Iowa
City water to drink, and...and it bothers me the price is so cheap, uh, beers and dollar
shots and all that, and maybe I could be way off base, but it seems to me they're selling
below wholesale because they're bringing the money in at the door.
Wright/ You mean, with a cover charge.
Correia/ Can we limit cover charges? (several talking)
Wright/ That's another concern. You can drop the price of alcohol low and make up for it with
your cover.
Correia/ Can we drop the cover price?
Champion/ Also, dram insurance in Iowa is based on your alcohol retail sales. I think I'm right
about that. Am I right about that? (several talking)
Dilkes/ I'm sorry. What was the question?
Hayek/ Dram...dram shop insurance.
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Champion/ Is dram shop insurance based on your retail liquor sales, and not wholesale? So,
another reason to sell...is that true? Bar owners are...
Dilkes/ I don't...I don't know what the dram shop rates are based on. Do you know what they're
based on?
Bailey/ So, price specials...we're not (several talking)
O'1Jonnell/ ...doesn't sound like we can control. (several talking)
Correial Well, if there are things like, so if...there are other ordinances like the sidewalk
ordinance that is enforced by complaint basis. I mean, having an ordinance that was, that
said, you know, can't sell below wholesale cost, I mean, that would allow there to be
community, we'll just say, oversight, so if there's a community group that's particularly
concerned about this, they could do the research and then say, you know.
Dilkes/ The problem is, is that L ..I, I think we've created expectations with the existing specials'
ordinance that are not realistic expectations, that they are, you know, we've had a number
of questions from...from bar owners about specials that are being offered by...
Bailey/ Competitors.
Dilkes/ Their competitors, and we have looked at those and we've said, 'No, we don't think that
violates our existing ordinance,' and we have taken at times some flack for that, and so I
don't want to create another ordinance that, I mean, ideally...yes, you hope for self-
enforcement, but we would like to be able to prosecute it and win, if we do charge it, um,
and I think under the existing proposal that I've given you, we can do that, and I'm not
wild about creating an ordinance that we can't do that with. But you sure can try it!
Wilburn/ We had the example of, uh, in a similar vane, I believe...one went to court with, uh, the
definition of, uh, of serving. It took quite a bit of staff time and we were on the losing
end of that.
Dilkes/ Right.
Karr/ And we created an amendment based on that decision.
Dilkes/ We amended it and we...to a container, but it's got to be tight or there's going to be a lot
of...
Karr/ Creativity.
Wright/ (several commenting) You think this is tight enough to catch a lot of the creativity?
Dilkes/ I...I think it's a good start.
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Wright/ I have one other question on this. When you were talking about it, did you discuss
exempting restaurants from the price specials?
Champion/ Cause they don't do it anyway.
Wright/ Pardon me?
Champion/ They don't do it anyway.
Wright/ Well, I'm thinking like the 126 has half-price wine bottles on Monday night.
Champion/ Right, right. (several talking) They do.
Wright/ It is a drink special.
Bailey/ It is.
Dilkes/ Yes, we did, and we rejected it.
Wright/ Because...
Dilkes/ Because...I think any time you approach the restaurant/bar distinction as you will hear in
the discussion about zoning (laughter) it's just full of difficulties.
Karr/ There are very few restaurants, full-service restaurants, that do not provide alcohol on their
menu, which is very different than a decade or two ago when a restaurant could exist
without, uh, as much, uh, emphasis on alcohol. Now the culture has just developed for a
full-service menu includes...so that it's blurred definitely the definitions of restaurant and
bar. And we felt in our discussion it was easier to be consistent across the board than to,
um, open that door of the restaurant and bar, or to, uh, get into a container or, uh, you
know, a carafe of this size is fine, if it's filled with wine, but it's not fine if it's filled
with.. .
Champion/ Bourbon.
Karr/ Bourbon, thank you. We just didn't...
Champion/ We11...I really have to think about this one.
Bailey/ Matt, did you...
Hayek/ My sense is that staff, uh, spent a good deal of time trying, and they did as good a job as
anybody could expect, to finesse a patchwork of...of yes's, no's, do's, don'ts as they relate
to price specials, and that's what we have before us, and...and further I suspect that if this
group were to try to go through that and decide which price special details, uh, are
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acceptable and which ones aren't and which ones, uh, are fair and which ones
unnecessarily throw the baby out with the bath water, um, all that combined tells me...I
think price specials is, would be an enforcement nightmare, my personal opinion on it,
and I don't know that we've got the resources to do this. Uh, we're, we're going to have
some budget talks shortly, and I think we're going to see some sobering numbers, um,
pardon the pun. Um, and uh, boy, I don't know how you do this without dedicating
unbelievable resources (noise on mic). Not to mention...oh, go ahead.
Correia/ Oh, well and so, Marian gave us a memo, outlining the resources...what you estimated
the time would be to process, so 107 alcohol license holders, process of price specials
would be three hours a month.
Karr/ Those are estimates.
Correia/ Correct.
Hayek/ Well, that's just processing faxes we get and emails we get with price (mumbled), right?
Karr/ And we didn't know out of those 107 establishments how many of those establishments
would bring in something every seven days, or bring in one thing that would be good for
six months. Or 12 months. We don't...we don't know. We simply...
Dilkes/ I mean, you have to expect that there's going to be a whole market reaction to this thing,
that we don't... (several talking) know what that might be.
Karr/ We also know that there will also be a great deal of interaction, people coming in and
asking to see competitor's lists, which are all public information. So, there's going to be a
lot of (laughter and several talking) because we already have that in other industries. For
instance, with our taxicabs with our rate cards. We have a lot of that. So we also
anticipate that, as well.
Bailey/ (several talking) Are there four who are interested in pursuing and proceeding with the
prohibition of price specials? We have the ordinance here. Let's just bring this...one!
Are there four? That's the magic number here.
Wright/ I don't think we have four.
Bailey/ Okay. Let's move on then. Consumption by employees.
Champion/ I totally support that.
Wilburn/ I'd like to ask Sam a question, um, if you have any, or have heard any experiences
related to this one. Um...if I kind of look at the root of what through all of this we're
trying to accomplish, this gets at, uh, a behavior or judgment that may result in, um,
someone who is a minor being served, or someone who is intoxicated being served, and
um, but there's a...there's a, there's other factors that go into, I mean, some of it is...is a
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matter of choice. A bartender chooses, for whatever reason, whether they're impaired or
their other motivations, um, in some of the things I've observed, uh, so for the purposes
of that, just to make sure that someone who's over consumed, regardless of their age, or
someone who is underage, uh, who is being served, uh, it doesn't really matter what the
motivation is. So, has your experience...that this has been a particular contributing factor
to that or not?
Hargadine/ It certainly can be. It all leads to making good decisions. Uh, additionally, um, we
can tie life safety issues, um, to being sober when you are in a position like this. We need
somebody who, if the music needs to be turned down, they're of sound mind to be able to
do it. If the lights need to come up, if there's a disturbance or a fire or whatever, uh, they
need to be able to make good sound decisions, and in order to do that, uh, we need 'em
sober.
Wilburn/ Okay.
Hayek/ Do we have, uh, much indication that this is an issue or a problem? I mean, it may make
for a good idea, but is it based on something we're seeing presently in the community?
Hargadine/ I wouldn't say that there's a trend, but there have been times when, um, stunts that
have been, have occurred in...in bars, have been, uh, allowed by staff that were under the
influence. But it's, is it common? No.
Wilburn/ The reason I had asked, I was...I hadn't, um, you reminded me of some of the public
safety things I hadn't...other types of public safety things, because what I was thinking
was that, well, we really get at those consequences through the PAULA rate and the
liquor license renewal, in terms of, I mean, if...if, um, if regardless of motivation or poor
judgment that, uh, tender or serve someone who's underage, or they serve someone who's,
um, you know, we'll see that in...in, uh, the PAULA rate. It may come, it would come
up at liquor license renewal time, uh, it's already against state law to serve someone who
is intoxicated. So those things, but uh, you...you reminded me of the situation where,
um, some of the stunts that are done where, um, one resulted in fire burns, uh, even after
that incident I'd observed some flaming well drink tricks being done, but uh...
Lombardo/ From our initial discussion on this too, we felt that it was a need to component, uh, to
add to the...the question of whether a license should be renewed or not, as one other
criteria that can be used to discern whether a bar is acting, um, appropriately or
conducting business appropriately.
Champion/ Well, I think it's definitely a public safety issue. I don't think employees who are
going to handle an emergency situation should be drunk, or even drinking.
Hargadine/ Likewise overcrowding. They need to know how many people are in there, and it's
hard to count when you're inebriated.
Bailey/ So, is there interest in pursuing this particular...
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Champion/ I'm interested.
Wilburn (several commenting) That's a yes.
Bailey/ One, two, three, four...
Hayek/ It doesn't matter, right?
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Bailey/ Right. So, criminal penalty $500 fine and the civil factor in license renewal, is that what
you all...
Champion/ Yes, and uh, .02 is the state tolerance for a minor, while driving? Minors can drink
while driving? Is that a (several talking) is that what you have if you eat a banana? If
that's what's in your... a ripe banana?
Dilkes/ I'm going to have Eric (several talking) .02. Eric is, Eric Goers is (several talking)
Bailey/ You'll have to come get a microphone, Eric.
Dilkes/ ...former prosecutor (mumbled). Knows the whole thing a lot better than I do.
Goers/ Connie, that's referred to as the Iowa zero-tolerance law, um, .02 is kind of considered
where, um, there's, it's not cough syrup that you had. You didn't just have a spray of
Binaca. Um, you know, it's not the air or the PBT or the machine. You've been drinking,
and as you identified, uh, by your question, obviously they shouldn't be drinking anything
at all. And so that's not a criminal penalty, uh, for a first offense. It's an administrative
penalty of 90 day license...I'm sorry. Sixty-day license suspension. Second one is 90
day license suspension, but because the state had already incorporated the .02 into the
Iowa zero-tolerance law we figured it would be an appropriate standard for this use as
well.
Champion/ Um, so if you're...if a teenager has, what would it take to get to a .02, that's what I'm
wondering.
Goers/ Well, it depends on a person's weight, first off.
Champion/ Oh!
Goers/ Yeah, I mean, 100-pound person or a 300-pound lineman would be quite a different result
there. Not much, to answer your question.
Champion/ Okay. Not much. Okay. (laughter) A ripe banana, I mean, I meant that seriously.
Goers/ A ripe banana probably would not get you there, no. (laughter)
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Bailey/ Okay, but there is interest in pursuing the criminal penalty and the civil. Thank you,
Eric.
Hayek/ I think if a majority is going to proceed on this issue, you ought to...you ought to, well,
what's that?
Bailey/ We.
Hayek/ Well, we ought to, if it's a majority, you're right, but...but I can see, I can play out a
zillion scenarios in which some, you know, the bar owner's there and...and or somebody
is off a shift and is going to stay for the rest of the night, not providing beneficial
services, but is there and was working, um, you know, should that person, uh, be
prohibited from any drinking. I mean, think it through.
Correia/ An employee on the premises, or is it, I mean, when I'm thinking of people earning a
wage.. .
Bailey/ You're on or off the clock, basically, right?
Correia/ You're on the clock, you shouldn't have a .02.
Dilkes/ (mumbled) the way the current ordinance (mumbled)
Bailey/ Right.
Dilkes/ I don't think we want to get, I think the police were concerned about getting caught up in
(mumbled) actually on the clock or not on the clock. Clearly (mumbled) who are on the
clock, but if you've got someone who is staying to help out, and is off the clock and is the
person running the show, then they shouldn't be drinking either.
Bailey/ Well, right.
Dilkes/ So...
Bailey/ So acting on the benefit...acting on behalf of the benefit of the establishment is what you
said would be used as the definition.
Dilkes/ That's what we came up with (mumbled)
Wright/ It's not limited to times during which the person is scheduled to work or on the clock.
Champion/ Right.
Hayek/ And what I'm saying is if...if you have bartender who works a shift and stops working,
hangs out for another hour, is not working and is not at the time providing a beneficial
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service, but has a drink and then something happens, somebody says turn down the music
or turn on the lights, and that person jumps in to help out.
Champion/ Well, maybe he'd better not jump in and help out.
Hayek/ Well, I know, but what I'm saying, we need to think about that, because you're going to
wrap up a whole slew of people who I don't know...are, are a problem or people we need
to be concerned about, um...
Dilkes/ We've had the same (mumbled) we've talked through these issues (several talking) you
could have an owner in a small establishment, for instance...
Bailey/ Microphone?
Dilkes/ Oh, sorry. Um, an owner in a small establishment who, um, is providing the man...the
basic management, and that would be covered by this ordinance. Um, you could exclude
that owner, but where does that, you know, where do you draw that line? That's a tough
one to draw.
Karr/ I think the...an example we gave that, which might be a similar one to...to the one you did,
Matt, was...officers coming in aren't going to know an employee from anon-employee,
unless the person assumes the work position. If they're not working, I mean, unless they
have a uniform you wouldn't know there are employees there. They're customers, unless
they assume the role of a worker and if they're on the clock, and working, that's easily
distinguished. If they're off the clock, in your example, and they jump in to help, then it
becomes a situation where, if you're going to be tempted to jump in and help, then
perhaps you should not drink there.
Champion/ Oh, right.
Hayek/ Or not jump in to help.
Karr/ Or not jump in, exactly.
Hayek/ Which causes another set of problems (several talking)
Dilkes/ When we're writing the ordinance, what we're looking at is we want, you know, the
officer to be able to say the guy was rubbing down the counter, you know, was washing
off the counter or he was serving a drink to somebody. We don't want to have to get their
time records and their, you know, we don't want to face the defense of somebody coming,
well, he'd gotten off work at 12:30. My records show that, and he just jumped up to help.
I mean, if we're going to have the ordinance...that's why we used the definition that we
did. But it certainly does encompass people that you might, were beyond the typical
situation (mumbled)
Bailey/ So, are we still interested in pursuing this? One, two...
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Champion/ What...what is the percent of alcohol that is considered that you're impaired?
(several talking)
O'Donnell/ ....08 now (mumbled)
Dilkes/ You better come (mumbled)
Champion/ I'm sorry! (laughter)
Goers/ Well, like in the context of an OWI for example, operating while intoxicated, there are
two prongs that can be used to prove, uh, guilt. One is the "per se" limit, which is .08.
think that might be what you're asking. The part of it is just if you're impaired. You
might be at .04, but if you're a very, very rare drinker, uh, you might be impaired at that
level. Uh, matter of fact there are some countries that have that level as their "per se"
level. Um, so, .08 I think is maybe the number that you're looking for.
Wilburn/ That's why the field sobriety tests...
Goers/ That's why the field sobriety tests are done, instead of just having a data master, um,
breath test or something, because they might be under and still be impaired.
Champion/ Okay, so I know you can't really answer this specifically this question, but how many
drinks would it take to get a 100-pound person to .08?
Goers/ I'm sorry, to what level? To .08? (laughter and several talking)
Champion/ I weigh a lot more than a 100 pounds. I know what it takes to get me to that level,
about two and a half glasses of wine and I can't walk. I fall asleep. So.. .
O'Donnell/ Is that that ripe banana question?
Champion/ I'm...I'm, you know, people brought up these other concerns, and...and that's why
I'm asking, what do you consider impaired, because uh, when you...I can see in a small
bar, um, the bartender having a drink with a regular, but I...I'm not so sure that one drink
is what I'm after. I mean, I support this. I don't think bartenders should be drinking,
especially when they're going to be responsible for the safety of people in that
establishment. But is....02 or whatever it was, is that a little stiff? I don't know.
(several talking) That's a concern that you have.
Bailey/ Well, the question is you're not going to go randomly check bartenders. There would be
some indication that there would be impairment, I'm assuming.
Hargadine/ Or an offense.
Bailey/ Or an offense, right.
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Hargadine/ That we observed, and then we also have suspected that the person was, uh,
impaired. To answer your question, it's...that's also an individual, it depends on what
you had for lunch, depends on the amount of starch in your system.
Goers/ How long you're been drinking.
Hargadine/ The type of alcohol that you drink...hard drinking.
O'Donnell/ So to be absolutely safe when you get off work, get out. Pack your bags up and go
somewhere.
Goers/ Or just don't jump back in. I mean, to use Matt's example, I mean, you could do your
shift, uh, finish up and then go retreat to that back booth and have many beers, as long as
you have a ride home, and you don't jump back in. (laughter)
Bailey/ So...
Wright/ And don't have a drink with your regulars, when you're running that bar.
Goers/ While you're working.
Bailey/ Okay, so...moving on, we have a majority who's interested in this, the consumption by
employees.
Champion/ I'm not done yet. Um...
Bailey/ Do you have another question for Eric?
Champion/ Yes. Maybe you can answer me yes or no. (several talking) Never mind. I
think...Eleanorccn answer this. (laughter) So, if...so this would mean that the owner of
a bar could never have a drink in his bar.
Bailey/ If they're working.
Champion/ Well, if they're the owner, they're working there, aren't they?
Bailey/ I don't know.
Champion/ Did we ever assume the owner's a customer?
O'Donnell/ Cause this does say... say employees.
Dilkes/ I think if the owner is sitting at the bar not, you know, the police are not going to, as
Marian explained, the police are going to go in and look at who they think is working,
serving, you know. If that particular owner has themselves down as the management,
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that might be another story, yeah. You could exempt owners, but you have to understand
what then you're doing if you do that.
Goers/ Right, and one of our problems with that consideration is that it would be hard to imagine
an owner being present, say the owner is present and impaired, and, you know, he could
certainly do so. Uh, absent this law, but then it'd be hard for me to imagine that another
manager or someone else, uh, defying that order, who's present and perhaps impaired. I
mean, I think that even if the owner's not working, boy, it's hard to say no to the owner.
Champion/ Well, I think you could (mumbled) for a dollar or two. They could make everybody
the owner. I would! No! Okay, I'm going to support this. Let's see how it goes.
Bailey/ Okay, so there's support for this. All right. Let's keep moving. Um, increase in penalty
for under-19 on premises to $500. Comments?
O'Donnell/ What if there's a fake I.D. involved?
Dilkes/ No, this is the...this is the penalty against the person who is under 19 in there.
O'Donnell/ This is the penalty against the person.. .
Bailey/ The individual.
Dilkes/ The individual.
O'Donnell/ Oh, I'll support that.
Dilkes/ It's currently $250.
O'Donnell/ Yeah, okay. Good.
Hayek/ I support it. We're...we're increasing our, the level of our expectation (mumbled) the
bars. I think it would be a...an appropriate balance to likewise increase our expectation
of the individuals who frequent those bars.
Bailey/ Okay. Two? Three? Four...okay. Yes. All right, increase in penalty for serving,
advertising, etc., specials to $500.
Dilkes/ I think that's off the table, given your decision on price specials.
Bailey/ Okay. All right. Any other initiatives that we wish to pursue that aren't involving
zoning, which we will hear next?
Correia/ Well, actually there's one thing that came up at a meeting that I was in a few weeks ago
about social host ordinances. This is not related to ours, and liquor licenses, um, and I
have some sample social host ordinances that are in place in West Des Moines and
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Washington. Actually the City of Washington, I have the Washington County one. I
don't know (mumbled)
Bailey/ So, are people interested in talking about this at another work session, social hosts?
Basically people who have people in their house, and they're consuming alcohol (both
talking)
Correia/ ...serving to minors.
Bailey/ Are there people who want to talk about this?
Champion/ Sure.
Bailey/ One, two, three...
Hayek/ I'm happy to talk about it.
Bailey/ Okay, so...
Karr/ If you want to give it to me, then we'll put it in the next packet.
Bailey/ Okay. Thanks. All right, before we talk about zoning, we need a 10-minute break.
(BREAK TAKEN)
Zoning Re ulations for Alcohol Establishments:
Bailey/ ...um, come back to the table and continue our discussion. I lost Bob though...we lost
Bob. (several talking) There he is, yeah! Okay, let's talk zoning.
Miklo/ Okay. Um, staff reviewed zoning ordinances from cities around the country, uh, to see
how they regulate, uh, bars through their zoning codes. We also consulted with the
American Planning Association and reviewed their literature on, uh, what appears to be,
uh, effective methods, versus less effective, uh, methods. Uh, the most common, and we
think the most effective way of regulating bars through zoning would be a method called
minimum spacing requirements. Essentially what that means is a bar is, uh, a new bar is
allowed to open, provided that it's a minimum of so many feet, uh, from an existing bar.
Usually it's 500 feet, some communities go as high as 1,000 feet. Um, so if we applied
that downtown, this map illustrates the locations of existing bars, uh, restaurants, and
then off-premise, uh, sales. If we applied the 500-foot spacing requirement, uh, around
existing bars, there virtually would not be a location in our downtown where you could
open a new bar, unless a number of existing bars closed. Uh, so this...this would, we
believe, would be a very effective way, uh, preventing additional bars from opening in
our, uh, downtown area. Um, this sort of, uh, regulation would not effect existing bars, at
least initially. If they're in place they're grandfathered in, and would be, uh, allowed to
remain open. If for some reason they closed for a period of a year, based on our...our
zoning grandfathering clauses, it would not be allowed to reopen if there was another bar
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within 500 feet. So, uh, again, it's not going to have a great effect on existing
establishments, but would clearly prevent new establishments from opening, uh,
downtown. Uh, this sort of regulation can also be applied to liquor stores. It's pretty
common requirement (both talking)
O'Donnell/ How would that work in the sale of a bar?
Miklo/ Uh, as the zoning applies to the use, not...so an owner could sell a bar and as long as the
new owner's able to maintain their liquor license...
O'Donnell/ They could do it under a different name...
Miklo/ Right.
Correia/ As long as they didn't close for more than 12 months.
Miklo/ Right. And the 12 months comes from our grandfathering clause in our zoning code. In
some communities it's as low as six months, as high as two years, but generally, uh, one
year is a pretty common requirement.
Wright/ Um, what would be the effect on a...on a license if a bar, um...nope, never mind. I was
thinking about a fire and (mumbled)
Miklo/ Maybe if we get through, there are some series of questions at the end and if I don't cover
them we can (several talking)
Dilkes/ Let me add one thing about the one year. That kind of dovetails well with the state code
requirement, which says that if you're revoked, the premises can't be relicensed for a year.
Miklo/ Um, this type of regulation can also apply to liquor stores, and currently we only have
one liquor store, the one that recently opened, in the immediate downtown, but we have
two on south Gilbert Street in fairly close proximity. So if that's a concern that we're
starting to see a lot of liquor stores in the downtown area, we could, uh, apply a similar
zoning requirement. LTh, many communities also have a similar requirement for a
minimum spacing between a bar and a residential zone, and the intent there is different.
With the 500-foot spacing between bars, the ideas not to get a concentration or further a
concentration. Um, for residential zones it's generally about 200 feet, and the idea is to
give a buffer strip between any bar and a residential area. So, that's something if you're
interested in pursuing we could...we could also look at that. Um, this type of ordinance
could also apply to restaurants that have liquor licenses. There are some communities
that...that do regulate, uh, restaurants with liquor licenses in this manner, uh, the distance
could be less or it could be the same, um, so that's something, again, we could explore.
To...the difficult part is to adopt the minimum space requirements. We need to make a
distinction between what's restaurant and what's a bar. Uh, and that's done in a lot of
communities by the percent of sales, similar to what we do with, for the exceptions for
the under-19 rule. Um, that above a certain percent of sales, you're considered a...from,
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if a certain percent of sales, for example more than 50% or 60% comes from alcohol
sales, you're considered a bar, and you're subject to these minimum spacing requirements.
Um, and that the, uh, percent of sales that kick an establishment into a bar varies from
community...some have been as low as 25%, some as high as...as 60%. Uh, we think
for this to be effective you'd have to have a fairly, uh, low percentage of sales, uh, from
alcohol to be considered a bar, uh, 60% is not an uncommon requirement. Or, 60% of
your sales coming from food is not an uncommon requirement. There are, uh, other
zoning methods that we looked at, special exceptions or other types of special zoning
permits, and overlay zones that some communities use, and those are...are fairly
complex, uh, they may run into some issues with our state code in how it regulates, uh,
liquor licenses, uh, and they're really not a very good fit with our current structure of the
zoning code. So we would not recommend pursuing those...those types of...of permits.
So I guess the question is, uh, does the Council, a majority of you want to, uh, establish
zoning laws to, uh, prevent the further concentration of bars downtown?
Lombardo/ We discussed this earlier today too, and I think, um, my recommendation, and I think
there was general support is that...that if you're going to get into zoning that we look
city-wide, um, because we don't want to be trying to address this after there's a
proliferation elsewhere, and having it back-track and trying to decrease density, similar to
what we're contemplating for downtown. So if...if there are zoning changes to be made,
there's a lot to discuss, whether or not there's a distinction between bars and restaurants,
but also then city-wide, versus particular areas or not, um...
Bailey/ So, are we interested in pursuing zoning changes, generally?
Correia/ I am. (several responding)
Bailey/ Is there general interest in further discussion on this?
Wilburn/ The challenge, um, gets...I'm sorry. The challenge gets to be, in that definition of bar
and restaurant, that it historically was a challenge when we were discussing, um, another
issue, which was smoking. Um...
Bailey/ Eleanor, I know you and I talked about this today. Do you feel comfortable that we
could parse that out, the bar and restaurant issue?
Dilkes/ I think we could. I think that it's going to take more work on staff s part to, I think we
need to gather some information. We do have some information available to us because
of the exemptions that folks apply for under the under-19 ordinance. I think we talked
about maybe taking a look at... at some inner-play between sales and occupancy and
those kind of things, so I...I think if you all say you want to do bars as opposed to
restaurants, and I agree with Ross. It's always a...you gotta make sure you're doing it
right, but I think that we'd have to take some time and we could come up with a definition
that you obviously could review and...and see if you were comfortable with.
Wilburn/ The other...uh, was that a further thought along that line, because I was...
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Lombardo/ Not specific to whether or not we can make a definition. It was just with regard to
zoning (mumbled)
Wilburn/ The other...um, this is an area in the past, historically, since I was interested in...uh, 21
and I understand this relates to, uh, access and that the concern originally was with the
downtown area and commerce and the environment of...of encouraging other types of
business, commerce, where amix-used type downtown...the concern or where I've been
hung up in the past has been related to, um, you know, the issue of, of uh, of problem
behaviors and illegal behaviors, including overconsumption and selling to minors. So
where I get hung up, if there's a...if there is a restaurant, for example, um, a local or a
national chain that might be, um, pretty popular for. folks, uh, and they're one that would
be responsible and not sell to someone who's over consuming, not, uh, regardless of age
and not sell to a minor, um, do you, um, if a California Pizza Kitchen were wanting to
come to town, uh, and they would be one that would be looking for a liquor license, you
know, if...if, uh, if they wanted to go into the Hieronymus Square project area, or uh, you
know, are you, um, potentially damaging someone that would, uh, essentially follow the
law, and you know...
Miklo/ This is, and that's one of the questions, is that this could be structured so that it would not
affect restaurants, even if they have liquor licenses. I mention that because some
communities do regulate restaurants with liquor licenses through zoning, but you
wouldn't have to.
Wilburn/ Right, and I understand that could be an exemption, but historically we've had
difficulty with.. .
Miklo/ Right, it wouldn't be an exemption. It actually just wouldn't be regulated. Um, in terms
of...
Wilburn/ Okay, so it wouldn't be an exemption, but still the challenge of, is this a restaurant or is
this a bar has been the difficult one.
Miklo/ It has been difficult, but there are some methods, uh, in addition to the percentage of sales
that can be fairly effective. For example, a, uh, a business that closes at 11:00 PM, uh,
could...could be unregulated under this, and there's very few restaurants that are open
after 11:00, I mean, there might be some sort of all-night diner, but um, if your concern is
not regulating restaurants, that we believe we can craft an ordinance that would do that.
Lombardo/ If there...yeah, if there's general support for exploring this further, I think what I
would suggest is that we come back with a proposed definition that...that lays out, and
takes into con...you know, any of these concerns into...into consideration, um, if not,
then we won't spend the time doing it, but you know, some of the background for
this...this proposed zoning change lies in...in the concern for density of bars downtown,
in particular, um, and the desire to over time try and encourage other types of
development and so...
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January 5, 2009 y
Wilburn/ So that's what you're talking about essentially, is over time, because the...existing
would.. .
Lombardo/ Absolutely.
Wilburn/ ...grandfathered in. Maybe it might help me too if I could hear from some Council
Members that are in support of, um, controlling density by zoning, as what you see, um,
medium to long-term trying to impact with this. Maybe that might help me a little bit.
What do you hope to accomplish by...
Correia/ It is the...through this encouraging mixed use, more variety in what types of commerce,
activities are available downtown, I mean, I think that's what...that's what came out of
our downtown marketing analysis. That's what I hear from...from folks, um, wanting to
see more variety in what's available downtown.
Wright/ That's largely the same angle I'm coming from. If we looked at the downtown study,
one of the things that we talked about there is the need for continued support for retail
and the need for more office, quality office space, in the downtown area. I think this is a
way we can help balance some of those recommendations, and I think what we've seen is
needs, um, against the...the continual increase in the number of bars in the downtown
area, um, it will keep, to my mind, it would keep the downtown more diverse and more
vital over a longer period of time.
Correia/ Well, and I also think there's that, the goal of increasing the access to alcohol
establishments, and I think that's, you know, when we talk about having alternative
activities, that argument as well, there's already all of this activity, proliferation of going
downtown and going to bars, and so that other types ofnon-alcoholic activity can't
compete because there's such a market in this niche, and so I think that...
Bailey/ Fundamentally it tweaks the market. I mean, that's what we've seen. (several
commenting) I mean, there's a big pile of money to be made if you open a bar in
downtown Iowa City because there's...there's easy access and there's the audience for it.
What we would be doing by zoning, and I would support zoning throughout the entire
community, zoning in this way - um, what we will be doing is essentially limiting the
number of bars in downtown Iowa City, um, and I think we should consider, um, making
a distinction between bars and restaurants, because we do have an entertainment zone
downtown.
Wilburn/ That was my other question, is (several talking)
Bailey/ I mean, I think that (both talking)
Wright/ ...differentiate between bars and restaurants.
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Bailey/ We don't...we will not, I mean, I think we all know that we're not going back to a
traditional, you know, 1950's downtown. We have an entertainment zone, but we also
have a responsibility to keep that entertainment zone, um, vibrant in a way that's, um,
useful to all of our population, not just a segment, even at night. So, that's what interests
me, about moving forward. We haven't heard from...
Wright/ I'm glad you mentioned the differentiation between a bar and a restaurant, because I
think that is one we would need to make.
Bailey/ We haven't heard from Matt. We haven't heard from Mike.
Hayek/ I...I share those views. I mean, there's a large element of, um, economic vitality, uh, that
I see benefitting from this, and that's why I'm open to looking at it. I...I do think we've
got to spend some significant time looking at, uh, what could be unintended
consequences. Now, what...what does it mean if we do this and the market value of the
existing bars jumps up because now they're a more rare...a rarer commodity. I don't
know. Does that impact how we think, you know, what does it mean...does it mean that
the...the existing establishments themselves are more likely to continue over the long run
than turn into something non-bar associated, because they're a hotter commodity? I don't
know. You know, do we...do we have thoughts about the potential impact to, um, to real
estate, uh, downtown, rents, um, the value of real estate and how that corresponds to
taxes, you know, those are the sort of things I would want to look at, um, but uh, as an
initial matter at first blush, I am open to this, um, because we, because it, I think will help
promote a...a more diverse downtown and that's in the City's interest.
O'Donnell/ You know, I...I think it makes a great deal of sense. I still have a sense that, um, the
only way you'll ever reduce the number of bars downtown is if one just totally goes out of
business, and I...I think there's something...you can make a liquor license worth a lot of
money downtown if you limit it this way. The 200, um, foot distance in residential areas,
I don't know any place within the City you could...you could build a bar then. And I
agree with the restaurant aspect.
Wilburn/ Okay, thank you. I have a question, Eleanor. Um, if, um, in terms of the use, and uh,
they tie it to the license in terms of zoning, uh, and a future, um, denial of use, um, is...if
some establishment has a, um, if they end up with a, essentially a year, um, loss of
license, and then for whatever reason they decide not to, you know, 15 months go...the
year comes. They don't reopen, and then they decide to sell. That...is that no longer a
bar, or...
Dilkes/ Under the...the way our current grandfathering works, as Bob says, is that if you
abandon that use, or if that use is...isn't there for a year, you're not entitled to
grandfathering. So, in my view, if there would be a revocation which per the state code
would mean that premises couldn't be a licensed, couldn't sell alcohol for a year, then I
think that use would expire and they'd be no longer entitled to grandfathering.
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Hayek/ Now see, that makes me nervous, um, and for example, you're a landlord and you've got
a lease with a bar, a 20-year lease and you're relying on that, and uh, a 12-month
revocation is imposed on your tenant, um, lasts the 12 months, and that means that bar
can no longer function as a bar. Now, you know, they may have legal grounds to get out
of the lease, and that has a whole series of impacts, beyond the bar owner, um, that we'll
need to be cognizant of as we get into this.
Wright/ Well, that's also a very powerful incentive for the buyers to live by the rules.
Hayek/ And this is not just a...a bar issue. This affects the business community. It affects, uh,
real estate. It could affect City coffers. I'm not saying I'm opposed to it, but I think there
are a lot of things we need to think about very carefully before we proceed.
Bailey/ This isn't a bar issue. This is a land-use issue. I mean, when it becomes zoning, and
you're right...
Karr/ But also in that example is because it's a progressive fine and suspension, it's no surprise
they lost their license for 12 months. You would know it was coming several months
ahead of time through this stepping-up process. So...
Bailey/ So there is interest in pursuing zoning regulations. Let's move down these questions,
um...
Miklo/ Do you also wish to, um, consider separation between bars and residential zones? It
wouldn't be residential uses. It was...
Bailey/ Can we move down to...to make sure that...
Dilkes/ ...changed the questions a little bit...
Bailey/ Oh!
Dilkes/ ...because staff...
Bailey/ Sorry. I was just using the memo that I had in front of me.
Dilkes/ Yeah. We've changed the questions a little bit, because staff is not recommending a
special exception process or um...
Bailey/ But are we on the same page about bars and restaurants? I heard (several talking) yeah, I
think I heard four, but I wanted to make sure. Okay. All right. Go ahead, Bob. I'm
sorry.
Miklo/ Um, okay, so the next question is, do you, are you also concerned about the relationship
of bars to residential zones, and would you want to see a buffer zone, um, they would
likely be less than 500 feet in most cases. It's 200 feet, which is about a block or a half a
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block, little bit more than a half a block. So the idea would be, if you're within a half a
block of a residential zone, not a residential use but a residential zone, you couldn't open
a bar.
Hayek/ The deal over on the east end with Blackstone...okay, but what...(several talking).
Okay.
Miklo/ That was outdoor service area.
Dilkes/ ...outdoor service area. We have a provision in our outdoor service area ordinance, not
our zoning ordinance, that says you can't have one within 100 feet of...
Hayek/ An outdoor service area.
Dilkes/ Yeah. Yes.
Hayek/ But they can drink on the other side of the wall.
Dilkes/ Yes.
Hayek/ In fact I have! Um, okay.
Bailey/ You didn't need to disclose that.
Wright/ Yeah, I would like to see a buffer between a residential zone and establishment of a bar.
O'Donnell/ I don't have any problem with that.
Bailey/ Amy?
Correia/ Well, I'm just wonder...um, I'm not very good, but 200 feet...so...
Bailey/ A half a block. Is that what you said, a half block?
Miklo/ Right, just a little bit more. Our typical...in the downtown area, our typical block is 300
feet long.
Hayek/ Do we have, uh, are there many streets where a...where a, uh, residential zone ends on
one side and a commercial zone picks up on the other?
Miklo/ We try not to do that, but there are a few examples in town where that occurs.
Correia/ Towncrest is one, right? Like Shakespeare, like...
Miklo/ No. Most, I believe it's commercial on both sides of the street.
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Correia/ No, but like behind.
Bailey/ What we're looking for is an example.
Davidson/ ...Shakespeare's is within 200 feet of a residential.
Correia/ That's what I'm thinking. I don't know -are they are bar or a restaurant?
Davidson/ You know, we talked about this. I think you do need to think about - if you believe a
neighborhood tavern is appropriate in a neighborhood, then you wouldn't be in favor of
this.
Hayek/ Hilltop.
Lombardo/ You could still have them included under the proximity, um, and not, you know, so
that there could be more than one.
Davidson/ Yeah, Hilltop is an example. Fox Head is an example.
O'Donnell/ Shakespeare's.
Miklo/ Fox Head's not an example, it's commercial around there.
Davidson/ That's not 200 feet from a residential zone?
Miklo/ I don't believe so. I think there's...it's CO-1 and, but it's, I believe it's zoned commercial,
even though it's got apartments in tt.
Davidson/ But, anyway, the point is made that...certainly the Hilltop is an example.
Wilburn/ All residential, certain density of residential...
Bailey/ Residential is residential. (several commenting)
Wilburn/ I'm just asking (several talking)
Bailey/ That's my philosophy, residential is residential. I'm just trying to decide...
Correia/ And all of these establishments are, I mean, they're old establishments (laughter) I
mean, I'm thinking i£ . .
Wilburn/ Well, if it's the...if it's the nature of the activity, I mean, you're starting to get into think
of certain examples where, again, if you're for the neighborhood bar, that type of thing. I
mean, there's other examples in the near downtown area. We've got multi-family
residential where there's a, well, both liquor store and...and bars, and so that's why I'm
just...asking questions.
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Dilkes/ If I can...I think the, while that is an ordinance that Bob has found in his research that is
typically paired with some of these things, I think it's a little bit off topic, because we're
talking, I mean, the focus of this discussion is on the overconsumption of alcohol and
underage consumption, and the way we came to zoning is the concentration of
establishments in an area that exacerbates those problems. That's I don't think the issue
we have with the buffering of a residential zone. That's a different set of concerns and
issues. So, I'm not certain that that's really...something that we need to decide for
purposes of this discussion. I think we do need to decide the liquor store issue, because I
think that is on topic.
Lombardo/But proximity to where you can buy alcohol is certainly a factor to binge drinking
and overconsumption. So...
Karr/ Well, if that would be the case, then once again I don't know if you want to get into this
tonight, you'd be looking at convenience stores, which are neither bars nor restaurants,
but you can purchase. So, I mean, again, don't know that.. .
Dilkes/ I'm just not sure in the develop, in this discussion, that we're at the point of answering
that question. It may be a question we want to ask, but I'm not sure that it's one (both
talking)
Bailey/ You know, to answer that question for me, I would have to see, I mean, you did
this...when we had the Blackstone discussion, I would have to see more maps and where
this happens and where it doesn't happen, what we're talking about. We do a better job
with our neighborhood commercial of buffering now. Hilltop probably wouldn't happen
now, but...and the examples we have are in older areas. So...if we're going to continue
this discussion, I would have to see...I would have to think about it with a map in front of
me, I think, to make...so can we...
Miklo/ We can save this one for another day.
Bailey/ Thank you.
Miklo/ The final question is, do you want to consider minimum space requirements for liquor
stores?
Bailey/ Yes (several responding) one, two, three, four...yes.
Hayek/ I don't know. I...I uh, again...
Bailey/ ...has the majority.
Hayek/ ...I know, so...(laughter)
Bailey/ Save it for another day!
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Hayek/ I mean, we have one (mumbled)
Bailey/ Right, but have we talked about if we're going to do this in all zones, or just downtown.
Is that question asked?
Dilkes/ I...I thought (several talking)
Miklo/ We didn't ask it, but you had said that you wanted to.
Bailey/ I said I wanted to. I didn't, did you? (several talking)
Dilkes/ I thought I heard (both talking)
Bailey/ Okay, I'm sorry.
Dilkes/ Tell me if I'm wrong. (several talking)
Bailey/ All commercial? Okay, all right, sorry. Thank you. Do you have what you need?
Miklo/ Yes. (several talking and laughing)
Bailey/ We also have a memo in here regarding, um, occupancy, or from the Fire Department. Is
that anything that we want to discuss since we have people here (several talking) who
have stayed here, um, did we have any questions, or did you have anything you wanted to
present to us? I am curious about how frequently we're doing occupancy checks. I mean,
it was covered a little bit in the memo, but I mean, we don't get a report like the PAULA
checks, so I'm curious about this.
Compliance Checks (IP4):
Grier/ Glad I stayed!
Bailey/ Thank you for staying.
Grier/ Uh, typically, enforcements are by complaint for overcrowding. We get a lot of those.
We will go check those (mumbled). We also do spot checks or annual checks at, uh,
specific times of the year, school starting up, um, after a break, big weekends, uh, typical
times where we see an increase in activity in the establishments. So, uh, as the police
report would show they go to certain places more than others. Ours would probably be
typically the same. We do try to make it to the outskirts of town and at least stop in and
say hi and check for exits, make sure that things are in compliance, but uh, typically we
also fish where the fish are.
Bailey/ So, you said enforcement by complaint only?
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Grier/ If there's...if there's an overcrowding call, we will certainly go, but we also go those other
unannounced times.
Bailey/ Okay.
Grier/ Where we just walk through and we'll go from, uh, place to place and just stop in and
make sure that the exits are clear, uh, that the alarms are, uh, not in trouble, that the
sprinkler system is operational, if there is one, and those are just random checks. We
don't have a specific schedule established. We...we, like I said, we do it, uh, around big
events or when school is starting back up, those sorts of things.
Correia/ How many a month or how many a quarter or, I mean, how do you keep track?
Grier/ I...I could, uh, get the numbers for you, but we don't have a specific set out that this
month we're going to go to these places.
Correia/ I know, not in advance, but I mean after the fact, like...
Lombardo/ Do we have the data to, that you could go back over the last year and...and say we've
done "X" number of...
Grier/ I could find that information, yes. Yes.
Wright/ If you do track it, this might be interesting information for us to see routinely. Uh,
quarterly basis maybe?
O'DonnelU Did we not put on an inspector specifically for this?
Grier/ No, he is to assist with...all those establishments with uh, crowd manager training, liquor
inspections, uh, help manage (mumbled) inspection process pretty much all occupancies
throughout the city. What we do for the enforcements is we typically go out when the
places are busy. We go out at night, so that that causes us to divert our attention from
other activities. And, having been gone for three months, I'm trying to catch up so...uh,
we probably did not do as much as we would have in the past, had I been here also, but,
basically the Captain Inspector was acting in my absence. So, he had other duties.
Hayek/ I think a question I would ask is, do our random checks and... and the way we do things
in terms of inspecting for occupancy, do they cover the bases enough such that, you
know, the...the possibility of there being a tragic fire somewhere would not cause us to
look back and realize we hadn't inspected that place in what we would consider to be too
long a period of time.
Grier/ Oh, sure. With the annual liquor renewal process, we do get into a basic fire safety
inspection, so that we know that they're up to speed on those issues. As far as
overcrowding or exits being blocked while they're open, that's certainly something that
we could do more.
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Hayek/ Well, and that's kind of what I'm getting at, you know, if something were to happen,
and...and we didn't, we couldn't show the public that we had checked that particular
place for crowding, open exits, things like that.. .
Grier/ Sure.
Hayek/ ...I know that would be something we would regret (mumbled) municipality, and if so,
maybe we need a more systematic way of going about things. Now, that...that is a whole
other (both talking)
Grier/ And that's part of the memo that Chief Rocca supplied to you, it does divert some...some
of our attention.
Bailey/ I agree with what Mike and Matt have said - it would be, I think, good and instructive for
us to see some kind of systematic report, I mean, we...we can see the PAULA report,
but...and I'm not suggesting make work, but I would be interested in getting a sense of
what we're finding out there.
Lombardo/ We can...we can create a report quarterly to let you know what...what's been done to
date on a quarterly basis.
Wright/ Yeah, that would be good. I mean, presumably the information is available. It's just a
matter of...
Bailey/ Right. It would be...and I remember when we did discuss this, Mike, that we were, you
know, it was quite a discussion, actually, sending somebody out to check occupancy and
um, so I think it would be good to get that report back and that information, particularly
related to alcohol establishments.
Grier/ We can do that..
Hayek/ And I think...I think to tie this back in to the consumption discussion we're having,
occupancy does tie to that and...and that seems to me that an over occupied, uh,
establishment may make it more difficult for staff to manage and monitor those who are
consuming.
Bailey/ Well, even tied to the diversity of businesses downtown. I hear from other types of
establishments about the occupancy concerns that they have about particular
establishments, spilling over into the sidewalk. A lot of noise. A lot associated with
that...you know, to quote, driving away their customers. So, I mean, it leads to a lot of
discussions that we've had.
Hayek/ Do we have many over occupancy issues though, I mean, we do these random tests. Are
you finding problems?
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Grier/ Generally not, uh, on our random checks. I think our unannounced visits become
announced through other means, so I think people kinda know that we're out there
(several talking) uh, but generally the things we're finding are, uh, something in the back
exit way, you know, just got put there because they were doing something. But it's
readily removed, and people are very willing to work with us on what we're finding. We
get a lot of anonymous complaints from other businesses that, hey, this person's
overcrowded. You need to come and check. So we do that, or if the police are out doing
their thing downtown, they also will call us and we'll come up and we can enforce that.
So we work well with the police. That's generally a company level experience. It's
something that's spur of the moment, we just send a company in.
O'Donnell/ Do we find different hours in our checks where the occupancy rate does go up
considerably?
Grier/ Certainly. Certainly more...later in the evening. Yeah.
O'Donnell/ Okay.
Bailey/ Okay, so...
Lombardo/ One of the things we...while we're on occupancy, one of the things we've not
explored too is...is uh, limiting occupancy for bars, and that would open up a whole other
level of scrutiny. It's not something we've explored, but it's something that you could
consider on some levels. I'm not sure if the interest is there.
Bailey/ Are there other communities that do that?
O'Donnell/ I thought we had that. Don't we have that?
Grier/ The building department does make the, determine the occupant load by what's in...in the
structure. You know, tables, pool tables, those sorts of things. So that can...that can
vary.
Bailey/ But I mean, limiting the occupancy for bars, that is to say we would not have bars over
"X" number occupants. I mean, do other communities...
Lombardo/ We haven't explored it.
Bailey/ All right. I didn't know if that's how that idea came up or.. .
Dilkes/ The occupancy issue came up, in terms of using it in some way when we're defining, uh,
bars versus restaurants.
Bailey/ Okay. Thanks. Any other things besides this quarterly report that we're interested in
discussing regarding occupancy issues? Well, thanks for hanging out the whole evening.
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Grier/ Glad to be here! (several talking)
Bailey/ All right, any other, um, items related to this discussion of alcohol that we would like to
further explore at another time, or...
Wright/ Just something to, uh, since we're asking for information, um, how often...how often do
you prepare the PAULA (mumbled) (several talking) How often is that PAULA
information prepared and put in a Council packet?
Bailey/ We haven't been getting it monthly lately, cause I've asked a couple times. (several
talking) Yes. Yeah, we are.
Hargadine/ But we're getting back, is that what I'm hearing? (laughter and several commenting)
Monthly is what our target is.
Bailey/ Okay.
O'Donnell/ Sam, has there been a rise, I mean, from 95, 96, 97, 98?
Hargadine/ Uh, I think they're probably down. In the last...last 12 months, I know OWI's are
down.
O'Donnell/ If it's not a lot of trouble, I think that'd be an interesting thing to look at. (several
commenting)
Bailey/ Oh, yeah, I think that we should be looking at this from a lot of different perspectives.
Hargadine/ And we just, you know, we're at a year end, so now is a good time to do it.
Bailey/ Thank you. Anything else?
Karr/ The social host ordinance, we'll just wait until we can package it with everything else
again. And come back (several talking)
Bailey/ ...okay. All right.
Dilkes/ Just a reminder that the zoning ordinances are going to have to work their way through
Planning and Zoning, so that's...so, should we come back with the other things before
that?
Bailey/ Yes.
Dilkes/ Okay.
Bailey/ Please. (several commenting) Any other questions about process or timeline? Any
other comments about process or timeline?
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January 5, 2009 City Council Work Session Page 63
Hayek/ Uh, none other than to say to express appreciation to University for being here, um,
we've had excellent communication with them, I think, over the last few months, uh, on
these issues and I think the two entities understand the differences between our
organizations in terms of what we can accomplish and what University can promote, um,
because there are real differences, um, but uh, I think they go hand in hand, in terms of
what we can hope to accomplish realistically on that issue. So, thank you for attending.
Bailey/ Anything else? All right.
Council Time:
Bailey/ Moving right along.
Schedule of Pending Discussion Items:
Bailey/ I think we just did.
Upcoming Community Events/Council Invitations:
Bailey/ I do want to note that there is a reception for Lane Plugge, uh, he received
Superintendent of the Year. You probably all received invitations. That's Wednesday at
4:30 at Tate, um, School. Anything else that you all would like to draw attention to?
Okay.
Discussion of Meeting Schedules:
Bailey/ Um, Marian, discussion of meeting schedules.
Karr/ I just wanted to confirm (coughing) budget schedule and make some potential adjustments,
um, to that schedule, and also, um, talk about expectations as far as meals and
configuration. Um, again, you've got a meeting on the, tomorrow night, but your first
budget meeting is 8:00 to 3:00 on Saturday. Do we expect it to be 8:00 to 3:00, and
should I do breakfast and lunch? Is that...
Bailey/ If we're going to be here from 8:00 to 3:00 -yes, yes!
Wright/ I can skip the breakfast part. Lunch for sure.
O'Donnell/ Bagels or something.
Bailey/ Do we expect it to go to 3:00, and...
Karr/ That's...
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regular work session meeting of January 5, 2009.
January 5, 2009 City Council Work Session Page 64
Lombardo/ I guess it depends on how much you want to get into and how much (mumbled) Our
presentation certainly and overview...
Bailey/ This is going to be an overview and first discussion, um, it's a good chunk of time, and
that's great, and I'm...I think we're certainly willing to knock off the time when we can,
but...let's say to 3:00 then.
Karr/ 8:00 to 3:00, and breakfast, and I'm hearing there's a majority for breakfast and lunch,
okay. Um...with no mayonnaise, I hear ya!
Hayek/ I'd, well, do what you want on breakfast. I...we don't need much, I don't think.
Something simple.
Karr/ The 12th (several talking)
Bailey/ No! Okay? No! Moving along (laughter)
Karr/ The 12th is 6:30, is continue discussion of the budget. We will have a short, uh, special
formal meeting to take care of some, um, matters, right at 6:30.
Hayek/ Wait, wait!
Correia/ On the 12th?
Bailey/ On the 12th we will have a special formal meeting to take care of some items. 6:30.
Hayek/ But it doesn't change the start time.
Karr/ No, it does not change the start time. And there'll be no meals that time. Okay? Um,
Thursday the 15th, we're slated 1:30 to 8:00 PM.
Lombardo/ I have a conflict, um, I have one standing commitment to the University, um, a
speaking engagement at 7:00. (mumbled) end between 6:00 and 6:30.
Bailey/ Say 6:00, please.
Karr/ Say 6:00, and the...and then there will be no meals. And that will be televised (several
talking). Now that does shorten the traditional time for CIP's, but we're going to hope
that that takes care of it.
Lombardo/ That's more than enough time (mumbled) CIP.
Karr/ And then, Wednesday the 28th, you've got, uh, we've got budget and we've got Board and
Commission, and Community Events. I'd like to send the invitation out to all those who
have applied for money. We talked about it briefly, if you have any special questions,
to...I can line that up, but I'd like to offer them that block of time, 6:30.
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January 5, 2009 City Council Work Session Page 65
Bailey/ And, how long did that usually, does that typically run, if we...if we had 15-minute time
slots from everybody, we should plan on being here how long?
Karr/ Um...I'd have to take a look at...typically if everybody did a 15 minutes, I think we've
gone to 8:30, 9:00.
O'Donnell/ That's what we've always allowed, isn't it, 15 minutes?
Karr/ We always say 10 minute presentation and five minutes for questions, and some are
shorter, some are longer, but it's averaged out pretty well. But that...not all of them have
to come.
Bailey/ Right.
Karr/ But that's typically what we've done. And we would prepare that schedule, and we...we
can block out till 9:00, but it does allow you...we're getting right down to the wire on
setting, on budget and setting hearings, because um, the next week is the D.C. trip and
there's a lot of folks going to be gone, so I think it still would allow you if there isn't
100% participation, maybe some time to wrap up some details after that, if time permits.
Bailey/ Just plan on a long (mumbled)
Karr/ Plan on till 9:00 and then we can see. The 29th, we've got down "if needed," and we'll just
leave it at that, and as we work through the process, the "if needed" will drop off, and if
not we've got that block of time. Because we're set then turning it over we're set then to
set the public hearing on the 10th. And we have no other budget dialogue or deliberation
after that time in January.
Bailey/ And the 9th is a special Council work session that we could have...
Karr/ Well, the reason it's a special one is...is because it's the second...the second, it's your
regular work session, but because of the D.C. trip, we scheduled.. .
Bailey/ Right. But there won't be budget.. .
Karr/ There is not budget scheduled on the 9th, because on the 10th you will be setting the
hearing.
Bailey/ Right.
Karr/ And once you set it on the 10th, the presumption is made by the 9th.
Bailey/ Right. So, everybody's...okay. Are we all good? All right. See you tomorrow night.
This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council
regular work session meeting of January 5, 2009.