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HomeMy WebLinkAbout2003-01-28 TranscriptionJanuary 28, 2003 Council Budget Work Session Page 1 January 28, 2003 Council Budget Work Session 6:35 PM Council: Champion, Kanner, Lehman, O'Donnell, Pfab, Vanderhoef, Wilburn Staff: Atkins, Helling, Herting, Karr, O'Malley TAPES: 03-11, SIDE TWO, 03-13, BOTH SIDES TAPE 03-11, SIDE TWO BUDGET Lehman/OK. We have to wait because we have to water the plants not in operation. Atkins/That I understand. I have a couple things I want to clarify with you. Lehman/OK. Atkins/Certain things to confirm. Ready? Lehman/Yes. Atkins/These items require additional legislative action. Water, a year ago with we'll prepare an ordinance amending the rates by 5 percent, and you'll see that shortly. OK, again. Human Services: When it comes to budget time you'll be considering the lump sum; you won't be considering the distribution. Lehman/Right. Atkins/That doesn't affect us from a budget perspective, I just, if you were to change that number it would. Lehman/Right. Atkins/The Master Plan Parks and Recreation: i advise you and then they proposed last evening, I'd like to get them, if you're OK with this, use some Parkland Acquisition monies to go ahead to begin putting together that proposal. Champion/(Can't hear) do that, Steve? Atkins/Yeah, it is. In fact, what we have done in the past, Connie, it's, I feel a little redemption here, because five or six years ago I proposed to finance a couple of the Parks and Recreation--Dee remembers it--and we'll use the Parkland Acquisition and pay it back over a period of time. And it just, you know, minimizes the burden. The Commission didn't like that, and I mean nobody's mad at anybody, but this is basically the same principle as that $60,000 from Parkland Acquisition would be used to finance this study, This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City Council Meeting of January 28, 2003. January 28, 2003 Council Budget Work Session Page 2 and that's what they've estimated it to be. And then we will repay it over three to four years and I don't know exactly how we'll do that just yet; that doesn't change the budget; but it is General Fund expense ultimately. Yes, ma'am? Vanderhoef/OK, so there's, I see in the '04 proposed budget they are still paying back into--- Atkins/Some of the other projects, right. Vanderhoef/But paying back into Parkland Acquisition. Atkins/Uh-huh. Vanderhoef/So the question is then the $340,000 or whatever that's in the, listed in the book as in the Acquisition Fund, does that include all of the money that's owed it--- Atkins/No, that's current. No, that's current. Vanderhoef/That's current? Atkins/Right. Vanderhoef/So how much more is still left to be--- Atkins/That I don't know, but we'll get it for you though, Dee. O'Malley/Here's the loan schedule. Atkins/Here's the loan schedule. We'll calculate, we'll get that and mail it out to you. Vanderhoeff So that fund is even better off in some respects. Atkins/Yes. Vanderhoef/But it is also Parks and Recreation that has borrowed from it. Atkins/Yes. Vanderhoef/So they're going to be--if we put this into Master Plan, then they're going to be paying off two--- Atkins/Yep. That's right. Exactly right. Unless you were to say "no payback" and just take it directly out of the fund. Lehman/Which is exactly what I would do. Atkins/OK. There's one. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City Council Meeting of January 28, 2003. January 28, 2003 Council Budget Work Session Page 3 Lehman/No, really. Atkins/You can just pay for it and it's done. Lehman/It's park money; it's a master plan; and the benefit I think is tremendous. I think they need it. And I don't see any, feel any particular--- Champion/We can discuss it at budget time next year. Lehman/Well, the fact of the matter is that they need something really, really bad, and they want it really, really bad, they're going to get the money from us any~vay, whether they got the fund or not. Atkins/It's true. Now, the next budget you have, you'd have the first payment. In fact, repaying that. And then you can make a decision at that time if you'd like. Or you can make it now. I mean, it's very much up to you all. Pfab/OK. I got here a little bit late on that one. That's to fund that Master Plan? Atkins/Yes. Pfab/And the Parks and Recreation people are proposing we take that from Parkland Acquisition? Atkins/Parkland Acquisition, that's correct. Pfab/And is it justifiable to do that? Atkins/Yes, it is. We've done it before. Pfab/So, I mean, there's nothing--- Atkins/It's an internal loan for all practical purposes. Pi~ab/Are you talking loan or--- Atkins/Loan. Ernie's--- Lehman/I wouldn't do it as a loan. I would, to me, that's almost like a capital expenditure. Pfab/Well, is that something you can do--take it from Parkland Acquisition and use it for master planning? Atkins/Sure. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City Council Meeting of January 28, 2003. January 28, 2003 Council Budget Work Session Page 4 Lehman/You can do whatever you want. Atkins/Sure, it's you're definition. Pfab/I would support Ernie's position. I would say just pay it and get it over with. Vanderhoef/Years ago--- Champion/Is it for the General Fund or the Land Acquisition? Pfab/No, no, the Land Acquisition. Champion/Then it doesn't have to be paid back though. Atkins/It does not have to be. Lehman/For the parks. Champion/Oh, so you're saying to not pay it back, just take it out of the General Fund. Lehman/Let's all use it out of that. Champion/Oh, OK. Kanner/What's on the agenda for Acquisition? What's our (can't hear) Pfab/Very little. Atkins/Yeah, you're right, not a whole lot right now. Vanderhoef/But the original plan was--and tell me about, years ago, when we had hotel-motel taxes at 5 percent--- Atkins/Right. Vanderhoef/...and that was all for Acquisition, the 5 percent. Atkins/Right. Vanderhoef/Then we added 2 percent--- Atkins/Yes. Vanderhoef/...to the tax and that 2 percent was being put into a fund for Park Development. At some point in time, did those get rolled together or was the Park Development portion of that--- This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City Council Meeting of January 28, 2003. January 28, 2003 Council Budget Work Session Page 5 Atkins/IfI recall, it was rolled together at 10 percent because we needed some money in the General Fund. Both of those went together. Now, originally the Fund, I'll do my best to recollect the history, is when the old Central Junior High was sold--it was like $175,000 was deposited in the account to start the thing off. It had an income stream of hotel-motel tax. When we have developments from developers that pay in lieu of, will pay cash as opposed to donating land, does that go into this account? Vanderhoef/Nn-mm, can't. O'Malley/No, that goes into an escrow account. Atkins/That's an escrow account. OK. Vanderhoef/For that neighborhood, because we have to keep Nexus. Atkins/That's right. Vanderhoef/So what I'm saying is there were development plan dollars in this pot of money at some point in time, which even makes more sense with what Ernie is saying that--- Atkins/Your Commissioner--- Vanderhoef/If you don't develop until you get a plan--- Atkins/Yeah, your Commission wanted the study, referred it from the General Fund, would accept the parkland, wanted it paid back. If you took it the next step. Lehman/Well, I just feel--- Atkins/I just want to get it started for them. Lehman/Well, their policy of parkland dedication and certainly the need to pumhase parkland is not anywhere near as significant as it would be without our mandatory dedication program. I don't see that as being a fund that's nearly as important as it once was. I see the master plan has performed tremendously important. And I would take it out of the Acquisition fund and I don't, I wouldn't pay it back, and the reason I wouldn't pay it back if there is a really worthwhile project that comes us, that they really want, and they don't have the money in the Acquisition Fund we all know that if we like it, we'll budget it. Atkins/Well, I did advise them a couple years ago that if there was a project of some consequence, it's really make your case for the Council in the sense of selling General Obligation debt to buy the land and if it's worthwhile, I can't imagine why the Council wouldn't go along with it. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City Council Meeting of January 28, 2003. January 28, 2003 Council Budget Work Session Page 6 Vanderhoef/The original plan was always that they were saving the money because it was before we had the ordinance that money in lieu of land and that full proposal and what we saw as possibly happening was that, what to some extent has happened, in that we have developed trails of opportunity as areas have developed and new road projects on the west side. So there has been a preponderance of activity over there, and this money was purposely not spent to be sure that there was money to buy the land to get into the already developed areas of the City to at least get linear park, meaning trails. Atkins/And some of your trails indirectly are funded by sewer--- Lehman/Oh, yeah. Atkins/...because we secure easements and if we're going to be putting sewer line in there, we do our best to try to accommodate a trail at the same time. Lehman/That sidewalk, or trail if you will, along Scott Boulevard certainly didn't come out of Parks and Recreation. Atkins/That's right. Lehman/I mean, to me, this is--- Atkins/Well, the decision, can 1 go with this and tell them start the proposal process to the Master Plan? Pfab/I would-- Lehman/Yes. Atkins/Not ho~v to pay for it. Pfab/One question. I don't think it directly affects this. What is going on with this lawsuit about the State--- Atkins/Oh, parking--or parking. The Parkland Dedication park impact fee. We've been very much involved in that. We have worked with the lead; there's draft legislation; there are people to introduce it; West Des Moines has been actively involved in it. The proposal will resolve the issue, Irvin. It's really kind of up to the State. I suspect you're going to hear more about that when it's--- Pfab/Does that affect anything? Atkins/No, it does not. Lehman/Well, ! asked Eleanor when that first came up months ago. She felt that our ordinance was drafted in such a fashion that it probably was legal anyway. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City Council Meeting of January 28, 2003. January 28, 2003 Council Budget Work Session Page 7 Atkins/Yes, we felt very--- Lehman/She was very comfortable that what we were doing--- Atkins/Some of the other cities, it was a little loosey-goosey. We had a formula and Nexus and we had all the--yeah, that was the big issue that we could argue that many of the other cities could not. Vanderhoef/Nexus. Letunan/Right. Atkins/They're using much of what we did as a model for doing the proposed State legislation. What's your decision? To go? Champion/I would call approval. Vanderhoef/Go. Lehman/But I wouldn't do it as a loan. What's the pleasure of the Council? O'Donnell/I agree with you. Pfab/I think that's good. Vanderhoef/I think that's a very (can't hear)--- Lehman/A very legitimate expenditure and one that we really, really need. O'Donnell/Right. Atkins/Now this one's going to be a little more confusing because it confused me. The other evening there was a proposal put forth--- Pfab/Can you either pull that--- Atkins/Yep. Pfab/You're standing, can you move that back, or move the other thing out? Lehman/Oh, you're all right. (Laughter) Atkins/OK. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City Council Meeting of January 28, 2003. January 28, 2003 Council Budget Work Session Page 8 Kanner/I can't hear you. Atkins/I haven't said anything. Josh, in his presentation from the Convention and Visitors Bureau, in the budget we have a hotel-motel tax revenue line item of $550,000. It is divided in a policy position that you have. There is pieces, public safety, CVB, Parks. The CVB had traditionally received 25 percent of that number, $137,500, if we project it. Last year when we made budget reductions, we took an additional $13,000 away from them to place directly in the General Fund for this budget year. That means you'll have to amend that policy if you stayed by that. So, in other words, they would get $124,500. What they are proposing to you is they want their full 25 percent plus an additional 17,000 or $154,500. Does that--OK. That's what they want. Champion/That did not come across. Atkins/OK, well, the question you, I think, have to decide is, there's almost three numbers--you can do this, you can do this, or you can do that. Lehman/I'd leave it right where they were and I--- Atkins/And that's $137,500, that's right down. Lehman/I also can tell you that they are expecting significantly higher occupation, occupancy this year. Champion/In the (can't hear) the hotels? Lehman/Well, not only that, but loss of (can't hear) Pfab/Your what? Champion/It will raise our share considerably. Lehman/Our share should be--- Atkins/It's percentage. Lehman/Our 75 percent should be more than before. Atkins/Well, that's $13,000 less income to the General Fund, if that's the position you take. Pfab/Big back-breaker. Lehman/They do a really good job with the money they have. Champion/But now this budget year, they're only--- This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City Council Meeting of January 28, 2003. January 28, 2003 Council Budget Work Session Page 9 Atkins/That's this budget year. This is the new one. This budget year was zero. This one we're working on now is 13. And then next year it was to be 25. And it was originally going to go from 25 percent to 20 percent, staged over three years. That's what you approved last year. Champion/I think we should stick with that, especially since xve're going to have another hotel. O'Donnell/They've got to come to us. Lehman/Oh, you can go downtown; well, that's still three years away. Pfab/What about--is it $13,000--is that a number from--- Atkins/Yes, subtract that from that; you'll have--- Pfab/Where did you get the 13? Atkins/In last year's budget--- Pfab/(Can't hear) it was just a number? Atkins/No, no. Last year's budget xve made a number of reductions. We also changed some revenues. You didn't have to change the policy last year. This year you would have to adopt a new resolution if you were to accept that reduction of 13. In other words, you would go from 25 percent to 22 1/2 percent. That was the plan. Pfab/I'm missing something. OK. If what I understand is correct, ~ve have a built-in reduction in the percentage of the money--- Atkins/Yes. Pfab/...that goes, that we get that goes to CVB? Atkins/No, I don't understand--- Lehman/ Irvin, we are giving 25 percent of the revenue to CVB. Atkins/Right. Lehman/Steve's recommendation this year was to reduce that to 23 percent. Pfab/OK. Lehman/And eventually down to 20 percent. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City Council Meeting of January 28, 2003. January 28, 2003 Council Budget Work Session Page 10 Atkins/That's correct. Pfab/Fine. Lehman/They asked us to go from 25 to 28 percent. Pfab/Can you blame them for trying? Lehman/No, no. You're right. Coralville increased their funding, I think $48,000, they didn't do a percent. O'Donnell/To what? Lehman/I don't--I can't tell you for sure. They do a really good job with the money they get, and I, you know, they've won some axvards, and I really, I'm prejudiced, I'm on the Board. But I think the money is very well--- (Laughter) Champion/Is there a conflict of interest here? Lehman/I asked Eleanor and she said I don't. I think I do, so I'm going to express my conflict. I think they do a wonderful job. I really hate to see their funding (can't hear)--- Pfab/I approve, but I think that if you want to leave everything as is it would be $137,500. Kanner/I think we should go with your suggestion. I think we really need tax relief in any form we can to every dollar. We have a lot of groups out there that were asking us for money, and I'd much rather put the money there. I think that's going to bring more people in. And let's reexamine this in six months and see if our income is going up. And then at that time, if it is going beyond projections, then we can kick it back into that 25 percent. Lehman/Well, they're like we are. They do a budget per year like we do. If we cut them, they'll do their year budget, but before you think that $13,000 is going to go to the groups we've been listening to, I strongly doubt. This is going to the General Fund. Kanner/Right, Ernie. I said there's a lot of different possibilities. It's not, I'm saying I'd much rather it go to that than--there's no doubt they're doing a good job, and they'll continue to do a good job and I think tax dollars are tight and we got to fight for every dollar we can get. I think that's a good proposal to lower it and reexamine it in six months. Atkins/Keep in mind, in order to accomplish this, you'll have to pass a resolution amending your distribution. Now you can tell me that right now. The next time---I'm trying to give you some heads-up--that there are other items that you have to vote on to implement these things. And you have to do that by--my intent had been to bring them back to you. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City Council Meeting of January 28, 2003. January 28, 2003 Council Budget Work Session Page 11 Pfab/I wish we--- Vanderhoef/Did we change policy last year? Lehman/No. We got a memo. Atkins/Because it was zero. Vanderhoef/Our policy still is at 25 percent. Atkins/That's right. Vanderhoef/So we don't have to do anything if we leave it at 25 percent. Atkins/You got it. That's right. Vanderhoef/Which is $137,500. Atkins/That's correct. Vanderhoef/Which in my mind if they want 17,000 more, if they create that many more hotel stays, you know--- Atkins/Well, they always get a percentage of this number. Vanderhoef/All the years that ! was on CVB, they were always delighted that Iowa City ~vas on a percent--- Atkins/Mm-hmm. Vanderhoef/...because then if they produced for us, they got some payback for it. Lehman/There's incentive. Atkins/Remember, this is a percentage and when hotel-motel rates go up, so does this. That goes up too because it is a percentage and then theirs is a percentage of that percentage. Vanderhoef/Mm-hmm. Wilburn/So you're suggesting taking no action, leaving it where it's at? Vanderhoef/Leaving it at 25 percent and let them work hard for growth for us. Pfab/So what, at 25 percent, that's $157,0007 Atkins/That's correct. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City Council Meeting of January 28, 2003. January 28, 2003 Council Budget Work Session Page 12 Lehman/Right. Pfab/I'm for, as much as I hate to do it, I'm for taking it at i3, and because there's a lot of things going on, there should be more money, the percentage should be bigger, and since we're not locking in a number, we are giving a benefit to earn, they got 75 percent. Champion/But not if we take the 13 out of the way--we'll be reducing their percent. O'Donnell/Yeah, let's leave it the way it is. Pfab/But the pie can get bigger. Lehman/How many want to leave it where it is? Let's not go forever on this. O'Donnell/No. Champion/I'll leave it where it is. Atkins/OK. If you leave it the way it is, I'm not bringing a revised resolution. Lehman/Right. Kanner/Steve, so one--- Champion/So they don't get the extra 17--- Atkins/No. Kanner/So, I assume you projected this to come into line with our reserves and other positions--- Atkins/Yes. Kanner/...that you're going to now take this probably out of our reserves? Atkins/That's--for $ ! 3,000, unless you come up with another large items, that would be the simplest way to do it, Steve, yes, you're correct. OK. OK, those are the things I had to confirm with you before we--- Lehman/ All right, play ball. Vanderhoef/I have a question to ask. When I was looking at the budget for Police, and there's two different budget pages. One is Police Protection and one is Police Patrol. Atkins/It could be a summary budget is one and the other is an item, a breakdown--patrol function. This represents only a reasonably accurate tzanscription of the Iowa City Council Meeting of January 28, 2003. January 28, 2003 Council Budget Work Session Page 13 Vanderhoef/When ! started looking at Capital Outlays--- Lehman/Page? Vanderhoef/One of them is on page 63. Atkins/OK. That's the summary page. Vanderhoef/The other one is page 65. So this is the summary page? Atkins/Page 63 is the summary of the whole, all of police. Vanderhoef/That's what I was double-checking. Atkins/OK. You got it. The patrol is on page 65. Vanderhoef/And Patrol gets a lot of the things that are Capital Outlay. Atkins/It's not duplicated, Dee, that's correct. Vanderhoef/So, I guess, and I'm not going to be talking specifically about Police, but this is one of the places. We have had a Capital Reserve Fund for vehicles. Atkins/Mm-hmm. Vanderhoef/And I know we have them on a cycle of replacement. Atkins/Except for police cars. Vanderhoef/Except for police cars. Atkins/We do not do it for police units because they burn up so many miles; we, usually after 18 months, they're ready for trade-in so we don't depreciate those. We just pay for those directly out of the General Fund. Correct, Kevin? O'Malley/That's correct. Sure. Atkins/OK. Vanderhoef/And is there any way to make them last, say, two years instead of 18 months? Atkins/What we will do is, each car is evaluated before we trade it, some of them at 18 months are shot. If they're not, we will on occasion try to keep that vehicle on the street without jeopardizing safety, Dee, and I know you understand that. Without jeopardizing safety we do the best we--oh, sorry. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City Council Meeting of January 28, 2003. January 28, 2003 Council Budget Work Session Page 14 Lehman/You keep individual records on all those vehicles. Atkins/Every, yeah, every unit, every nickel that's spent on it. In fact, we have records on each user that checks the car in and out. O'Donnell/But, Steve, that's determined by the safety of each unit. Atkins/Oh, yeah, yeah. O'Donnell/So, there's really--- Atkins/We buy a basic police package that Ford and Chevy often bid, and it's, you kno~v, heavy- duty suspensions and things such as that, you know, that go with that police package. Vanderhoef/But then all the extra accessories that are listed in Capital Outlay because you turn them over so fast, is it because when they talk about backseats and all that stuff, they won't fit, therefore we have to--- Atkins/The backseat, those backseat units will fit on virtually, I mean, we re-bid those things. We will occasionally have to replace the backseats. That's what this does. But when xve bring a car in for replacement, we strip it--- Lehman/ Right. Atkins/...lights, everything comes off on it and it goes onto another unit. But during the course of, just the life of a light bar maybe is four or five retro fits or something--- Lehman/We can get a new model with more lights and whistles. Atkins/But, generally speaking, now most of that is a package deal that we buy. Pfab/All--- Atkins/Six squad cars and I think we have 21 units. It's just time to replace those. They're ~vorn- out as they can take a beating. Yes, sir? Pfab/Do I understand correctly that when you have to, when you strip them out, and you take out, I'm just going to say the backseat, that is stored and when the vehicle goes back, it goes back--- Atkins/When we're going to sell the vehicle off at a trade-in or an auction, the backseat goes back in. Pfab/The original one? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Io~va City Council Meeting of January 28, 2003. January 28, 2003 Council Budget Work Session Page 15 Atkins/Yeah. P fab/Now it was never used and it's just put back in? Atkins/We have an inventory ofbackseats. Champion/What? Pfab/Because they use a plastic seat, the prisoners don't get to ride in upholstered seat. Atkins/Yes. Champion/Honestly, Steve, I never knew that. Atkins/See the backseat comes out, we set the--- Champion/I haven't been in the backseat of a police--- Atkins/This is good. The backseat comes out--- Pfab/I haven't either, but--- Atkins/...and we put in the plastic unit with the bar, the cage. Lehman/Oh, when you get a new car, you change the seats. Atkins/We take them out. Lehman/And, so you get six cars, you got to have six backseats. Atkins/That's right. Lehman/And then the cage, is that window between--- Atkins/That's the window between. Lehman/And that has to go in because cars are different sizes and you're--- Atkins/That thing is adjustable. Vanderhoef/Well, it's just that we're replacing six cages, six backseats, six cars. Atkins/Six of them. Yes. Vanderhoef/So that was the kind of stuff that I was looking at that were repeaters. OK. Then tell me about how much do we put in--I didn't find it in this budget and I didn't search super This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City Council Meeting of January 28, 2003. January 28, 2003 Council Budget Work Session Page 16 hard to find it--but, the amount that we put into the Reserve Account for all of the rest of our rolling stock? Atkins/You will find that--Kevin can look up the number. That's distributed through all the budgets. Vanderhoef/Oh. Atkins/Because each department budgets a certain amount of money for maintenance. And part of our maintenance charge is a depreciation charge. And so while we have various types of rolling stock, trucks are different and garbage, and then, you know, you understand what I'm saying. And we have different schedules for them. Then those departments that have those units assigned to them have to pay a depreciation. Is there a number, Kevin? O'Malley/It's on page 112. Atkins/Thanks. Pfab/Also, ifI have a chance to make a comment I will do that. Atkins/OK. So the equipment replacement, as you can see, Dee, we have a charge for services of $992,000. Kanner/So this is vehicles plus computers plus other small capital--- O'Malley/No, this is just rolling stock. Atkins/No, but I mean if a piece of rolling stock has certain equipment on it--- Kanner/No, I was talking about outside. Atkins/Oh. OK. Kanner/So this is just the rolling stock, $941. O'Malley/That's correct. Atkins/Yeah. O'Malley/Actually, Steven, there's actually a $1,410,000 to be replaced. And you can see some of those are refuse vehicles, some of those are street sweepers, some are refuse packers--- Lehman/Twin-engine scrapers. That's a landfill compacter, I think, isn't it? That's big equipment. Vanderhoef/$590,000. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City Council Meeting of January 28, 2003. January 28, 2003 Council Budget Work Session Page 17 Lehman/That's big. Kanner/What is the total for everything, all of our small capital that's on this replacement schedule? Where is that listed? Atkins/OK. Now wait a minute. This is rolling stock. Kanner/Where would computers and things that--- Vanderhoef/Each has its own. Atkins/Oh, well, yeah, each of the departments would have--- Kanner/That would be in each department? Atkins/Yeah. And we can run a total for you. O'Malley/We do have computer replacement on page 109, 110. And as Steve said, all the departments are charges for their computers except the library. Champion/Does the library buy their own? Atkins/Yeah, they have their own. O'Malley/They have their own service. Pfab/One comment. I take, I think I understand this correctly, especially like police cars and whatnot, there's a point in time when the trade-in, or the salvage value, and the cost to repair, and there's probably another--- O'Malley/The lines cross. Pfab/...so I mean, those cars are individually, they're also looking, I think I've seen some of the bids they get for some of these cars. There's a great demand for them because they have a great reputation of really taking care of these vehicles. You open up the bids, you wonder why anybody would bid on them that much, hut they know the cars. Atkins/We do take good care of our equipment and you're right, Irvin, there reaches a point that each car is evaluated. Generally speaking, it's 60,000 miles in 18 months. Sometimes it can be more that we've reached that point where it's not economical for us to continue to put money into the unit. Pfab/And also, especially police vehicles, from my own personal experience, all of those are not put on on the interstate. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City Council Meeting of January 28, 2003. January 28, 2003 Council Budget Work Session Page 18 Atkins/No. Their miles are tough miles. They're cars are on the road all day. Pfab/It's not even on the street all the time. Lehman/But that same philosophy is applied to all of our equipment. Atkins/Yes. Lehman/At least as I understand it, we do, in fact, I think, as I (can't hear) earlier today that MidAmerican maintains their stuff almost as well as we do. Atkins/No, they. That's right. I corrected you. O'Malley/No, I said, we keep our stuff as good as MidAmerican--- Atkins/No, they keep theirs as good as we do. Yeah. O'Malley/No, we do a good job. Atkins/Yes. Vanderhoef/Well, I guess what I'm looking at is, is there any way we can stretch out the length of the life of some of the rolling stock? Atkins/The answer is yes to that and we try to go through that virtually on an annual basis, Dee, to make sure. You remember a couple of years ago, in fire we had to back off. We had a 20~year replacement and we pulled it down to i7. There are units that we will keep. There are units that we'll trade out a bigger unit, bring out a smaller one. Sometimes we'll trade out a smaller and bring on a larger. That's nearly somewhat unusual, but we do that ail the time. Vanderhoef/All of this rolling stock is G.O. bonding? Atkins/No. A good bit of it is done because of the replacement schedule. The department is the user, must pay into the depreciation account. Lehman/The reserve. Atkins/Most of our G.O. stuffthat we use is a desk, a chair, smaller I mean sorts of things. We're about $300,000 to $500,000 a year is what we do on that. The rolling stock is almost virtually all depreciation. Vanderhoeff Didn't we do the big fire truck as G.O.? Atkins/The big air ladder truck was purchased in 1986 with the last bit of federal revenue sharing--you all remember that, that went a~vay--and with the use of some G.O. We will This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City Council Meeting of January 28, 2003. January 28, 2003 Council Budget Work Session Page 19 do that on again on fire. Fire is because it's such a long period of time, it's just easier for us to capitalize in the sense of using a G.O. Lehman/We did that last year. We took the fire equipment in the CIPs and moved that on out. But that was all G.O. Atkins/Yes. It was all G.O. Yes, that's correct. Each group of equipment has its own special treatment in how we, not only in how we maintain them but also how we replace them. Champion/Fire trucks last about how long? Atkins/Seventeen, twenty years. Usually when we replace one we will put it into reserve for about three years and then we'll sell it oft: Surprising there's a market for fire truck buffs that buy those things. Lehman/Yeah, but some of these small towns can't afford it. Atkins/Yeah, some of them that, I think it's also the Rotary Club that also will buy these, on, through auctions and take them to--- Lehman/ Guatemala. Atkins/...Central American countries. That's right. Yes. Lehman/OK. I have one issue. I brought it up last year and I got shot down. (Laughter) Lehman/All right. Get shot down again. I have a significant problem with spending the money that we're planning on spending on Water Works Park this year and next, '04 and '05. I mean, we have got so much parkland that we heard Matt last night tell us how we can't maintain what we have. Atkins/C-7 in your cream-colored page. Lehman/I just think that putting more money into completing what is going to be an absolutely magnificent park--I don't question that for a heartbeat--but xvhen we have trouble maintaining what we have fight now it just seems to me that putting money in that park at this point in time, we're putting money in there that we really don't have, that's G.O. bonds, that's the kind of bonds that add onto the tax bills that the people in town pay, and I think that's a project that could be put--and I talked to Terry last year, this isn't a matter of controlling erosion, whatever, that's under control--I know it sounds like it's you know way out there, but if we were to, for some unknown reason, four or five years from now for security reasons have to build a cyclone fence arotmd a million-dollar park, I think we'd look like a bunch of idiots. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City Council Meeting of January 28, 2003. January 28, 2003 Council Budget Work Session Page 20 Champion/How much are we putting into the Park Fund? Lehman/$250,000 this year and $200,000 next year, I think. O'Malley/Just turned around. Atkins/Just turn it around. Lehman/Just turn them around, I'm sorry. I mean, that's a half a million dollars in two years. Champion/(Can't hear) planting wildflowers and stuff like that that's not exactly developing a parkland, is it? Lehman/Connie, we got, but we got plant material out there. Champion/Do you know what, Ernie, I'm going to agree with you here. Lehman/Ah! Connie, we'lI both get shot down. Pfab/And i will too. O'Donnell/I'm your third one. Lehman/You're the fourth one. O'Donnell/Who's the third one? Atkins/i want to remind you--- Wilburn/The number one priority. O'Donnell/But you know Ernie brings a good point up. We don't know if we may be required sooner than five years to build a fence around it and isolate everybody from going into the park for security reasons. Pfab/But you know very well if we have to, the Federal government will send a check first. Champion/Are you kidding? Lehman/Yeah, right. Atkins/Yeah, thank you, Irvin. Champion/I don't have a problem--- Lehman/funding that park. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City Council Meeting of January 28, 2003. January 28, 2003 Council Budget Work Session Page 21 Champion/...by Iowa City. Lehman/I just have a problem with doing it at this point in time. I think that can be done--if it gets done in four or five years, whatever, someday that's going to be a magnificent park. O'Donnell/Well, I think (can't hear) for it. Pfab/Right, but the only thing as we understand here, the erosion is hollow. And that's my only concem. Atkins/No, there wasn't. This was intended to develop a park, I mean--- Pfab/But, I mean--- Atkins/We don't have any agenda. Pfab/It's now in a standstill state as far as erosion. Atkins/ Champion/We're just going to wait and see what happens with the Home Security situation. O'Dormell/Yes. Karmer/One of the security issues they were talking about is getting people into the parking lot away from the water plant. I think this helps develop that parking lot away from it so I think we're taking funds away from that, and more people are going to tend to park near there or be frustrated when they're told they can't park there. It's just going to make it harder for everyone. Lehman/Parking lot invites people to go out and use that facility. There's no question about that. The more people that use it, the more demands they're going to have for Parks and Recreation to maintain it. I just don't see that as being a good investment at this point in time. Pfab/If we had the money, I would say go ahead. It's questionable whether we do, I'd certainly put it off. Champion/Well, I think we're taxing people enough. O'Donnell/That's a fact. Champion/The thing, I just want to ask a question now before we put this in gold. Right? Lehman/John Henry, yes. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City Council Meeting of January 28, 2003. January 28, 2003 Council Budget Work Session Page 22 Champion/The parking lot. I mean what does this do with that grant for that trail to that old house? Lehman/That's being used this year as I remember. Vanderhoef/Well, the parking lot is this year too. Atkins/Yes, it is. Vanderhoef/So that's spending all three. So that part is--- Atkins/It's the new money that Ernie is--I assume that's what you're saying. Lehman/Right. Atkins/Now understand, the thought process was to make sure the parking lot got built up by the Butler house, that portion of the park. That's where we encourage people to park to use the park and stay away from the water plant site. Now if that parking lot's not available or isn't convenient or whatever the other circumstances might be. Lehman/Parking lot is part of what we're doing this year. Atkins/Yeah. Lehman/So that's going to be done anyway. Atkins/OK. Vanderhoef/This is the trail--- O'Donnell/This is not going to be a problem. Vanderhoef/This is the trail for coming on into town and going on out to the reservoir and that piece. Atkins/We want to keep folks up there. That was the plan. Vanderhoef/Mm-hmm. Atkins/So if they park there, and then there's really nowhere to go beyond that because we won't have the trail system there. Pfab/Does that mean that there won't be a space in the trail as contemplated? Atkins/Oh, sure. For sometime, Irvin, yeah. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City Council Meeting of January 28, 2003. January 28, 2003 Council Budget Work Session Page 23 Vanderhoef/And last year I made a large plea to focus on the last link pieces to finish the Court Hill trail. Champion/You've made that statement several times, Dee. We know about it. Vanderhoef/And that's the one that I still think belongs in there rather than doing more onto the Water Works Park--- Atkins/Well, sounds like the four of you are interested in postponing it, so-~- O'Donnell/I wanted to bring up one, too. I have our money allotted for the City Council. Atkins/Can you give me a page number? O'Donnell/Thirty-eight. Atkins/Thank you. O'Donnell/In '02 we had 110, in '03 we have 116, in '04 we have 162. Champion/That's (can't hear) O'Donnell/It goes $162,000 because we funded the public power initiative. We've added $50,000 here. You know--- Atkins/Yeah, your $50,000 will go--- O'Dormell/Public power. Atkins/Yeah. O'Donnell/But in times like this when we're asking everybody else to step back and try and be a little bit less, trying to save some money, I'd like to see this reduced a good $50,000 in '04. You know, a lot of this is, I would assume, our salaries--you know we are fantastically paid as everybody knows--that our salaries wouldn't be $40,000 to $50,000. How much? Atkins/What you have now if you look at the line item called Services and Charges, you have $111,530. Of that $111,530 is $50,000 for the public power study. Right? It's a one-time expense. O'Donnell/Right. Atkins/So the remaining services and charges amounts to $61,000. Now that's generally what your spending has been. Correct? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City Council Meeting of January 28, 2003. January 28, 2003 Council Budget Work Session Page 24 Champion/We're spending $61,000 for--- Atkins/For you know other services. O'Malley/Mike, you need to look at page 41 for the breakdown. Atkins/I'm sorry, Mike, yeah, I'm, 41. I'm sorry I thought you were (can't hear) Kanner/Say that again, please. Atkins/Sure, Salary you understand, Commodities are the miscellaneous, paper, pencils. Services and Charges is $111,530. O'DonneI1/OK, what's included in Services. Atkins/Of that is $50,000 for the--- Champion/For the water study. Atkins/For the public power study. You get $61,000, that includes dues, travel, training, what else in that, Kevin? O'Malley/Equipment. Atkins/Charges for equipment, if one of these is a car, we charge that. Vanderhoef/Computers. Atkins/Computers. Champion/You can have your computer; I'll take paper. O'Donnell/Well, I think we need to cut that back. We're asking everybody else to cut back. I think we can make less trips or rather than sending two or three people to an area we can send one. Atkins/OK. That's your call. O'Donnell/That's a method of being more efficient, more practical. Lehman/So basically what we're estimating we're going to spend $62,000 for services and charges for our computers and all that sort of stuff. Atkins/Right. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City Council Meeting of January 28, 2003. January 28, 2003 Council Budget Work Session Page 25 Lehman/What are you suggesting that we budget instead O'Donnell/I started this because 1 think we need to look at CounciI travel policy. We have $62,000. I don't know what portion is computers. Atkins/We'd, I mean, have to look it up, Mike, yeah. O'Malley/It probably wouldn't be--I'd say about 20 percent of that would be computers and e- mail. O'Donnell/OK, it'd be (can't hear) Atkins/So that $62,000, $12,000, so you're noxv down to $50,000 to work with. O'Donnell/So we have $50,000 left for travel--- Atkins/And your dues, National League of Cities dues, Iowa League of Cities dues, those kind of things. O'Donnell/That's fine. We need those. But I'm saying we don't need as many trips. And I don't how anybody else feels but--- Lehman/But what number would you put in? O'Donnell/I would put, well, we have $50,000--I'd reduce it to $25,000. Atkins/Reduce it by $25,000? O'Donnell/By 25. Atkins/That's pretty extreme. O'Donnell/I know it is. Atkins/OK. O'Donnell/And I don't kno~v if I have three people who would come with me on that but--- Kanner/Could we get a printout for what the expenditures were for travel for each Council member? Atkins/Sure. Kanner/And what they were for. Atkins/Kevin, I assume that's not a problem? Just have to go back to the records and pull them This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City Council Meeting of January 28, 2003. January 28, 2003 Council Budget Work Session Page 26 out. OK? O'Malley/Do you want for, like, last year, '02, and the current year? Atkins/You want to do it for a year, I would suspect, to get a full 12-month flavor. Lehman/(Can't hear) and then this year. Atkins/OK. O'Donnell/Yeah. Quite (can't hear) we seem to be duplicating trips getting effort here; we send two people to one area, three people to an area, and I,just think we can get more--- Atkins/Remember after Tuesday you can go down, you just can't go up. O'Donnell/Mm-hmm. Atkins/So, you know, we can go to a hearing at $111,000--you can always pull it down by your own action. You.just can't go up. Champion/Oh, I vote to pull it down. O'Donnell/What does everybody else think--is $75,000 too extreme? Champion/That might be too extreme. Lehman/Well, I tend to feel some of the same thoughts as you do. But we need, perhaps, to put it on a work session and talk about travel and Council expenditure, but like she said, we can come down. And I think, we have never discussed the travel policy or anything else since I've been on the Council--and that's nine years. Kanner/No, we--- Atkins/Oh, yeah. Lehman/Well, not really discussed it. Karr/You've got resolutions passed. Atkins/Yeah. Kanner/Yeah, we have resolutions. Karr/And policy. Lehman/But I don't have a problem with having some sort of policy. First year I was on the This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City Council Meeting of January 28, 2003. January 28, 2003 Council Budget Work Session Page 27 Council I have a cartoon in my store. Everybody on the Council except one went to Washington to the League of Cities, and I think we got made fun of quite a bit by the community because here we are six out of seven people going to Washington for a week or whatever it was. O'Donnell/Oh, but first year--- Lehman/And I think it's pretty hard to justify sending six out of seven folks. And we've never done that since. O'Donnell/The first year you were on the Council though, Ernie, it was considerably less expensive. They probably wouldn't have covered (can't hear) (Laughter) Lehman/I doubt that it was any less expensive then. With the wagons you had so many more overnights. Champion/You know, I'm not against everybody going. I'm against the money it costs, I think if you're going to a League of Cities meeting in Cedar Rapids or Des Moines and everybody wants to go, because it's kind ora time for team building. Lehman/But that doesn't cost much. Champion/But that doesn't cost that kind of money, but I think when several people go to Washington, D.C., and other places that are expensive. Not only is it expensive to stay, it's expensive to get there, and that we have such a tight budget. We're worried about a $50,000 job, and we're spending $50,000 on travel. O'Donnell/So we should try and participate. Champion/So we should try and participate in cutting our budget. Lehman/Well, are there four people who would agree? Pfab/Let me try a negotiation here. I'm not opposed to that, but I would say that money should be used, that we save here, should be used to hire the housing inspector. Champion/I'm willing to cut it by 20. Pfab/lfthe difference of that goes to that, you got my vote. Lehman/I don't know that we're at that. At this point, are there four people who would reduce it by $20,000? Champion/I would reduce it by $20,000. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City Council Meeting of January 28, 2003. January 28, 2003 Council Budget Work Session Page 28 Wilburn/I would ask, I have no problem with reducing it. What you're saying makes sense. But I think what you're also getting at is looking at being smart with our travel, and I'd rather--it would be easier to take a look at how the money was spent for travel. I mean, maybe we might decide at a work session that priority is (can't hear) League type meetings and trainings for Council Members. You know, perhaps more people being able to go to those as opposed to the National League, and then, but also, you have to remember you said travel, or JCCOG meetings, those types of travel. Atkins/Oh, yeah. They meet here. Wilburn/I mean, take a look at how we do those. We've also got, you know, Council elections coming up. There may or may not be newer members on Council who might be able to take advantage of the Leadership Academy that the Iowa League does. I'd rather than just chop it off; I'd rather take a--- Atkins/Well, you have a choice. You can do it by budget or you can do it by policy. Wilburn/Mm-imam. Atkins/It accomplishes the same thing. It seems that you're interested in kind of talking it through, but you can do it by, there's no doubt, you just pick a number. Wilburn/I'd feel better doing it by policy, I guess. That would help us do it. That's my opinion on it. Pfab/I would support doing it by policy. Lehman/Steve, let's get it on a work session. Atkins/OK. O'Donnell/Put it on a work session. My point was efficiency and I think we have three people go up to Cedar Rapids, do we take three cars, do we spend the night in Cedar Rapids, or do we come home? You know, that's part of being efficient with taxpayer dollars. Atkins/OK. I hear you. Kanner/So could you give ns a printout of ali Service and Charges? Atkins/Yeah, we'll run that whole budget in detail for you so you all have that. Champion/We're expensive. Lehman/Oh, no, no, when the totals came to things we're not expensive. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City Council Meeting of January 28, 2003. January 28, 2003 Council Budget Work Session Page 29 O'Donnell/No. Champion/No? Atkins/Yeah. Connie, take the dollars--- TAPE 03-13, SIDE ONE Lehman/At least you get cheese. Atkins/Yeah. We'll give you string cheese and a fork in a plastic wrapper. Lehman/OK. ! noticed something in the budget which I mentioned to you which I'm really anxious to see both the Sewer and Water budgets include $100,000 for meters that will be able to read, radio-control meters. Champion/We talked about this. Atkins/Yeah. Lehman/Yeah, we're going to start doing those. Atkins/We are starting to do that. I did check after you called. It's about six or seven years before we finish. But we add 300 to 400 new meters a year in addition to that. One of the big savings is liability; obviously, because folks will not have to go on the property. We believe we'll get far more accurate reads also. I did find om--and was surprised--we only have two meter readers. Champion/You're kidding. Lehman/Boy, you've got too awful good ones. Atkins/They've got, yeah, they just go down the street with the thing now. Lehman/That's a lot (can't hear) used to be. It used to Atkins/Oh, yeah, yeah. We had an old meter reader back in my youth. It used to be a big book and you write it in pencil. Pfab/Are these meters, are they going to be able to be hooked up if the time ever comes that we have a (can't hear) every place or--- Atkins/My understanding is that it's the most current technology and that ! would assume that sooner or later there's got to be a way that you could actually dial it up from home and send the information down to--- This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City Council Meeting of January 28, 2003. January 28, 2003 Council Budget Work Session Page 30 Pfab/Or, even, you could access it from the City that you can do a read. I see where the tec~mlogy now is coming where you can do high-speed broadband over electric line. Atkins/Yeah. O'Malley/No. ?fab/Yeah, it's coming. Atkins/Kevin said no to that. We can't do that. O'Malley/No, it's not doing that. What they do now, what this is going to be done is you drive down the street and your (can't hear) picks it up. Pfab/But I mean, are they, as we get to that, the next step is automatic reading or feedback. Are these equipped to do that? O'Malley/No. Pfab/Are those meters available? O'Malley/Yeah. Atkins/I've never heard of them. O'Malley/We have, they have, there's older technology which is the telephone read where it dials, but it uses the homeowner's telephone line at two o'clock at night and deposits the read. We didn't go with those. We felt it was much more efficient to just drive down the street, pick up all of them as we go down the street. Lehman/Put the reading box on the garbage truck and they'll read the meters once a month as they go by. I mean they can do that in residential areas. Atkins/Yeah. That's one of the things that it is a tad depressing, we have so many people out and about. That's sort of a personnel issue, trying to train people to be observant about all the other things. If the stop sign is down and you're driving a garbage truck, call it in. Yeah, for some reason if you didn't see it? Well, yeah, I just--but that's Joe's job. Well, Joe will get it fixed; he just has to know about it. Champion/I think that's incredible (can't hear). Wow. Lehman/All right. O'Donnell/So if there's a misplaced bush or something. Atkins/What's that? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City Council Meeting of January 28, 2003. January 28, 2003 Council Budget Work Session Page 31 O'Donnell/Where they can't read, where this thing won't register? Atkins/Oh, it's supposed to register from the street. I mean you're actually supposed to be able to drive down the street and virtually each one is registering for you. O'Donnell/That's amazing. Atkins/Yeah, you don't have to get out of the car. Lehman/You don't even see it probably. O'Donnell/I'd like to see them do my house. Lehman/Yeah--you'd have to have a telescoping reader for his. Atkins/Well, you could read it from (can't hear). Lehman/Up on the hill. Atkins/Yeah, I'm sure you could pick something up with that. Lehman/All right, what else we got to discuss? Atkins/I don't know. O'Donnell/That's it. Vanderhoef/Well, I'm still on some of the vehicle replacement. What I really would like--- Atkins/Page, Dee? Wilburn/OK. Vanderhoef/No, just philosophically. Atkins/OK. Vanderhoef/I'd like to see us cut this budget by 2 percent. So, I've been trying to look at places where we could do some changes that wouldn't be detrimental to services. So even if we stretch it out, replacement, even though we are accumulating dollars, what might be the target then, in my mind, is to stretch out the replacement of those vehicles which means that the charge-out from each department into vehicle replacement would be less, which would allow--- Atkins/Not necessarily. Because if you're--- This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City Council Meeting of January 28, 2003. January 28, 2003 Council Budget Work Session Page 32 Vanderhoef/It might. Atkins/...going to be maintaining it more when it's older, it could go up. Yeah and there is--- Vanderhoef/And there are certain vehicles that that's true. And I'm not a vehicle expert. Atkins/Nor am I. l just would really like to believe that we do that now. Vanderhoef/I'll give you a comment that was made to me this past week. Atkins/OK. Vanderhoef/Our vehicles look so good that this person said, you know, I really would just like to see one vehicle in this City that had some rust on it so we knew we were getting our money's worth out of it. Atkins/OK. (Laughter) Atkins/Then i think you need to look right at me because I've told Public Works that ! want our vehicles, I believe in spit and polish, and if there's mst on it, you sand it and you repaint it. O'Donnell/That's right. Atkins/I think people take better care of vehicles that look good--- Vanderhoef/They do. Atkins/...and I for one certainly will not risk an employee's safety at all. Vanderhoef/No. Atkins/But I just, honestly, Dee, I believe in the spit and polish, that they look better, they're better taken care of, a better image of the City. Vanderhoef/And they will. I think maybe this is a piece of information that should go out to the public that, OK, this is why they do look so good. They may be four or five years old and have been in all these other places, but because of our maintenance, their exterior appearance--- Champion/There's always going to be somebody who thinks that they--- Pfab/I would suggest that if you could furnish, Dee, with the number of Tom Hansen and tell This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City Council Meeting of January 28, 2003. January 28, 2003 Council Budget Work Session Page 33 that person to call him. Atkins/Call, yeah. (Laughter) Vanderhoef/Well, that's a possibility. Lehman/Dee, even if you change, even if we were able to change the depreciation schedule, our rolling stock and get a year or two more, that wouldn't approach 2 percent of the budget. Vanderhoef/But I can't ask for a lot of reduction if I'm looking at no suggestion. And that was one of the places that was I was looking at. Lehman/That's G.O. Atkins/Well, you know, if you don't do that, that would reduce the G.O. debt. O'Donnell/I'm really not interested in trying to compromise the safety of these vehicles. I'm just not interested in doing that. Vanderhoef/I don't, that isn't the point. Lehman/I think Dee agrees--- O'Donnell/No, I know that's not the point. Each vehicle is different, and you know, none of us are Nostredomus and you can't tell if it's going to last 18 months or 16 months or 24 months, you just can't tell. I mean, some motors will run for 100,000 miles and some run for 30. I just don't think we can look that direction. Pfab/I think, going back to what ! stated earlier, ! spent a fair amount of time with the vehicle department and questioning how they do, why they do what they do. And I do know a little bit about vehicles but I don't pretend to be an expert. But I sure would have difficulty finding ways to improve what they're doing. Kanner/Perhaps another way to look at it is a policy, maybe we want to reduce the number of vehicles and see if we can get by with less vehicles and explore that option. We do have quite a few and l'm sure we make good use of it but we might say it's a policy, it might be a little tighter, this is one way we want to save money. Maybe we can explore that issue a little bit. Atkins/Well, one of the things you have in Public Services is that you have to create redundancies, which a lot of folks don't have to do in the private sector. For example, we have one more garbage truck than we need. If we lose one out and about picking up, the public isn't too tolerant of--oh, by the way, we don't have a truck today, we'll have it in a few more--that, we have to be able to rush something to that side, and so we do have This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City Council Meeting of January 28, 2003. January 28, 2003 Council Budget Work Session Page 34 redundancies in our system. It's like holding onto the fire equipment for a little longer. They go to reserve status and it's just in case. O'Donnell/It's called backup. Atkins/Well, you know, really call it what you want, Mike. We really do need that if we're going to deliver public services. We've got a couple more plows than we need. (Laughter) Atkins/Well, honestly, you know that Iittle blade you see along the bottom? I mean, those are replaced about every second or third, I mean, it's got to be taken oft; a new one put on, and the truck drives in, the driver, it has to get back out, we snap a new one on, get him out and fix the other one. Lehman/Well,--- Atkins/There's always reducing the number. I just, we want to make sure we don't want to compromise the public service, the quality of service. And we have wherever we can gone to smaller vehicles, too, because they're just more fuel-efficient. Champion/I guess (can't hear) the point where we have to start looking at severe budget cuts. We may be there at this state--- Atkins/OK. Champion/...for how much longer. Atkins/Well, remember in last year's budget we predicted two years of problems, and we balanced this budget last year and this year with the understanding that we were going to ride out those two years and everything's been predictable so far on the part of the state. We can get through this. Next year who knows? I mean it's disappointing the state has ballyhooed, the governor ballyhooed that we're going to change the property tax system. Well, House files number 2, property tax freeze. Now wait a minute, what happened? I thought we were all in this together. And that freeze is proposing to freeze the monies we currently have and that's what you have to use for the (can't hear) and then you can only live on growth. It just seemed disingenuous to me. Oh, it'll kill small towns. I mean, yeah, absolutely would kill the small town. They just simply have no flexibility there. Pfab/I guess I have a little bit of a question. One which came up for the hotel-motel tax, we said well, why don't we put some of that into General Fund? I didn't see a lot of support to do that and that, so, if we're going to really work at that, I think that should have been one thing that we didn't let just go by. Lehman/Irvin, if that generates six dollars for every dollar they collect, where would you rather have the money--the General Fund or where it can generate six bucks for every buck they This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City Council Meeting of January 28, 2003. January 28, 2003 Council Budget Work Session Page 35 get? O'Donnell/$6.96. Lehman/$6.96--yeah, where would you rather--- Pfab/WeI1, then you end up with the same argument as you go trying to reduce. It's the same, it's another side of the coin. Atkins/Ernie, I don't want to be argumentative, but I could come back to you and say, you're right, that dollar creates six dollars in the economy, but we need the dollar to provide public services, and so--- Lehman/ You give the merchants, the businesses--- Atkins/I understand that. Lehman/...as to be able to pay the tax. Atkins/And that's where I was going with this is that it's--we're not out there by ourselves, that we're very much a part of the economy as everybody else is, but also in being part of the economy, there's an expectation on the part of the public that they're going to have a certain level of public services, and we have generally been able to deliver that. Lehman/And our people ask for more and more services all the time. You know, I've had people complain about the number of folks we have certain departments. I look Wilburn/The number of what? Lehman/The number of people we have in certain departments in the City. I look at what subdivisions and buildings go through in the way of inspection and this and this and this, and every time we turn around, somebody wants us to pass another ordinance making things even more restrictive and more people have to be hired by us to enforce the ordinances that the public wants. O'Donnell/Well said. Lehman/And I mean that's what we do all the time. It's just, we hired an assistant City attorney, I won't tell you who he is or was, he's not here; he told me that the Code book of the City of Iowa City was larger than Des Moines. I could not believe the regulations that you have on your book. (Laughter) Lehman/It just blew him away. Anyway--- This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City Council Meeting of January 28, 2003. January 28, 2003 Council Budget Work Session Page 36 Atkins/Yeah. O'Donnell/Where are we going with this? Lehman/We're not going anywhere with this. Wilburn/Speech time. Vanderhoef/I'm going to bring up one of those like you did. Lehman/Go ahead. Vanderhoef/As per usual, I will say it once again, it's not a service, it is a nicety and we don't need to be budgeting $50,000 in G.O. bonds for public art. Atkins/For public art. (Laughter) Pfab/For what? Vanderhoef/For public art. Champion/I don't think art is a wise deal. We have a real major difficulty (can't hear) (Laughter) Vanderhoef/Oh, I love the art. That isn't the point. Lehman/Oh, I think it's a nicety that we've reduced it from a higher that I'd be afraid to try to go any further with it. (Laughter) Atkins/Afraid? O'Donnell/Isn't it amazing though how we all have our own little directions we--- Pfab/Our little turf. Vanderhoef/Mm-hmm. O'Donnell/We don't reduce the trail, but we reduce art. So--- Vanderhoef/Well, it, for instance--- This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City Council Meeting of January 28, 2003. January 28, 2003 Council Budget Work Session Page 37 Pfab/Don't tax me. O'Donnell/Dee, I understand what you're saying, but I think we have cut that in half and I'm--- Vanderhoef/But we could cut it in half again. Lehman/I think that's a compromise that we're going to live with. (Laughter) Vanderhoef/Well, you know, when we're talking about having to pay for services and what the public expects of us to provide services, then do we use $50,000 for that service or--- Atkins/For something else. Vanderhoef/...do we use it to enhance the appearance--- Pfab/Dee, I think we're going to get our housing inspector paid for. With the reduction of City Council and that, we got it. Vanderhoef/That's possible. Lehman/Did I, was I convinced the last time we talked about it that this targeted area housing rehab that was $200,000 a year for five years was a good use of G.O. money, bonding money? Atkins/! wouldn't. Vanderhoef/That's also my question. Atkins/OK, a question. Maybe I can pose it back to you in a question. For low- and moderate- income families who might not have the ability to borrow monies to do the kind of projects, you know, rehabbing houses, seems to me that if we get our money back, they get use of the money, it improves their living standard; it increases the value of the property, which generates additional taxes, and it all seemed to be sort of a nice circle to be caught up in. Lehman/It is, but you really got a pretty long turnaround. These are 20-year loans, and the general public is paying off that--if we borrow a million dollars over five years, that's G.O. debt that is paid for by everybody to finance rehab. Atkins/We would probably make those shorter terms, Ernie, which improves the interest rate anyway. We probably be a 10-year note that we would do for--- Pfab/What kind, is there an interest rate on those? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City Council Meeting of January 28, 2003. January 28, 2003 Council Budget Work Session Page 38 Vanderhoef/Ten years at what? Atkins/Whatever the interest is. We're not out to make money on them. I think it's that plus 1 percent, so maybe 5 1/2 percent interest rate. Pfab/What do we get for our idle money now? Atkins/Oh. Less than 3. Pfab/But we are making money on it. O'Malley/We're only getting about 1 1/2 now. Atkins/Pardon? O'Malley/We're only getting about 1 1/2 percent now. Pfab/And we'd get 5 percent? Champion/Yeah, but we're borrowing the money--- Atkins/We're borrowing it and paying for it. Lehman/We're not making anything. Atkins/But the important thing--why I thought it was a good program--it's where you borrow money and you put it right back into the tax base. Champion/it's also good because it follows the part of the whole strategy to keep neighborhoods in good (can't hear) Atkins/Yes. Wilburn/Yeah. In targeted areas. Atkins/Yeah, it is targeted, remember. Champion/A lot of people can afford to make those payments but the bank is not going to look at them. I think it's one good thing about Iowa City especially. Atkins/If this was something that the private sector could provide, we would have heard about it from the banks that we're competing with. And they've not said a peep. Champion/I don't think they--- Atkins/These are loans they won't make. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City Council Meeting of January 28, 2003. January 28, 2003 Council Budget Work Session Page 39 Champion/Right. Atkins/But we do have a lien on the property so our investment is protected. Champion/No, I think they (can't hear)--- Atkins/And we've targeted it, not only an area, but also families. O'Donnell/OK. Vanderhoef/And the South Sycamore Trail, remind me one more time. That's the one that goes with the waterway, not with the street Sycamore? Atkins/Yes. Vanderhoef/OK. Atkins/Is that correct? I'm pretty sure, Kevin, that's correct, isn't it? O'Malley/Yeah. Vanderhoef/OK. Just double-checking myself. O'Donnell/What do we do, Steve, with these requests for community event and program funds? Atkins/Sooner or later, you're going to have to sit down and decide what you're going to do. O'Donnell/Do we just plug in a number? Atkins/Well, we have in the budget for Community Events 41 and change. O'Donnell/$41,998. Lehman/$41,998. Atkins/All right. And then you have $325 and $105, I believe are the two numbers for the human services. Now, once those are set, we're OK. You can take what all reasonable time you want in making decisions on how you want to distribute those monies. I thought that was the purpose of that note the other day, that you're looking for a whole different way to go at it, and that's fine. That's not going to hurt us. Champion/We just wanted a little more time because (can't hear) replace it and get a better deal. Lehman/But pending any change, note the numbers we that we have now which are the same as last year's numbers are the numbers that will be published for the public hearing unless This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City Council Meeting of January 28, 2003. January 28, 2003 Council Budget Work Session Page 40 we change them. Atkins/Unless you change them, yes. Lehman/There's a ceiling. Atkins/Yeah, the ceiling, you can always go down. By the way, we got a call from the Jaycees about 3:30 this afternoon. Champion/They were worried about that. Atkins/OK. O'Donnell/How much? Pfab/Did you give them the deadline? Atkins/Well, we didn't know, we didn't know, we didn't know, we didn't know, and I said the only thing I can tell you to do is write a letter to the Council and appeal to them. O'Donnell/How much, Steve? Atkins/I--they didn't say. They had nothing before, Mike. I think it's $7,500 they wanted last year, I think it was. Champion/$5,000. O'Donnell/That's an incredibly important thing. I'm really sorry that they missed this. Atkins/Well, we felt obligated to--we informed all the groups in November by letter, and there was a form and deadline. O'Donnell/But, still, we had 10,000 people in the park enjoying firecrackers and, you know, not everybody sees--- Atkins/All I know, folks, is that you know in a couple of months, they're going to come here and they're going want money. Champion/Right. Let's add it to the list. Is that OK with everybody? O'Donnell/Yes. Atkins/But I would wait and see what the letter has, you know, wait until you get the letter. Champion/But, that's (can't hear) directly to the community. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City Council Meeting of January 28, 2003. January 28, 2003 Council Budget Work Session Page 41 Lehman/We are going to meet, we're going to set the public hearing at the next meeting, is that correct? Atkins/For the 18th, yes. Lehman/if we want to make some adjustments, we can do that at that meeting, right? Atkins/Right. Well, ! prefer knoxving right now because you had said the next (can't hear). I need to publish it. Remember, you can't go up; you can go down. You can publish this and say that's our numbers. That just simply means unless you're willing, you want to add something. Champion/Don't hit me. Atkins/1 won't hit you. I promise. Champion/What if we add $5,000 to this Service Budget for the Jaycees. Atkins/Tell me, you mean, instead of going for $41,900 go to $46,900. O'Donnell/Mm-hmm. Atkins/Just if you have four of you to do it, we'll do it. Pfab/If you do that, I have a request then. Wilburn/If you fund it then, the question I have--and it's just something to think about--we've got $151,000 request, we've got a little more than double the--- Atkins/Page 48 and 49. Lehman/OK, thank you. O'Donnell/What page? Atkins/48, 49. Wilburn/I'm talking specifically page 49. We've got more than, or we've got a little more than double the request the number of groups asking, and all those folks got their stuff in on time, and they ~vere given a deadline. If we, and I understand about, you know, the (can't hear)--- Pfab/The (can't hear) Wilburn/What do we tell the folks that won't get funded? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City Council Meeting of January 28, 2003. January 28, 2003 Council Budget Work Session Page 42 Champion/That's my thought, that the Jaycees will have to come to--- Wilburn/What do we tell them? Champion/...give them some money. You're right. Wilburn/And that's, I mean, if we decide to give, to allow the Jaycees on, if we decide to give them money, and now we'll take heat for not doing the (can't hear) but there's, yeah--- Champion/Right. We'll have to do it in a different way. Wilburn/Yeah. Vanderhoef/What really bothers me along this same line is that this is not a one-time happening. This has been a consistent thing for how many years? Champion/How many years have we given the Jaycees money? Atkins/Oh, lots of years. Lehman/Oh--- Atkins/Sort of the last minute. Vanderhoef/But they come and request--- Pfab/But maybe it works better for that and they know it. (Laughter) Vanderhoef/We always (can't hear) July Atkins/Well, we thought we were improving the system. Champion/Well, you know what, I consider them doing something entirely good for the whole City; it isn't just an event. I mean, it is an event, but it's the biggest event that is done all year long. It is attended by more children and families than any other event in the state probably. Atkins/Kevin had a comment he wanted to make. O'Malley/OK. Take a close look at page 49. Pfab/Page what? O'Malley/Forty-nine. You see the column that says Budget 2003, you see that 41,998, and then This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City Council Meeting of January 28, 2003. January 28, 2903 Council Budget Work Session Page 43 you look at the far right column and it says 41,998. OK, whatever we had in the budget for 2003 can be given in 2004, even if they weren't here that night. See, all I'm saying? Champion/Mm-hmm. Atkins/Gotcha. O'Malley/So the request for 2004, column has additional dollars in it. Wilburn/It's not the dollars. I understand that part. We don't have to add anything to that; it's already added. But my question still stands: for people who met the deadline and got their stuff in and won't get money, what do we; we'll each have to be prepared if we, if you decide to go with that. Champion/That's a very good question. That never entered my mind. O'Donnell/That is a valid point, but we did fund them last year and I believe the year before that. Lehman/I was a little afraid we weren't going to get Jazz Fest last night. O'Donnell/Yeah. Vanderhoef/If you're done with that, I have one more question. O'Donnell/But i do agree that we need to make room for that because--- Atkins/You have room, but Kevin says there is room to do something. O'Donnell/(Can't hear) tend to--- Atkins/OK. Lehman/The $41,998 is equal to what we funded last year--- Atkins/That's right. Lehman/...last year the Jaycees were funded to the level of $5,000, so unless we see some things radically different, we'll probably go ahead and--we will publish the $41,998 unless we give Steve directions to do otherwise. Atkins/Otherwise. Vanderhoef/You know, I would really like a discussion about the things that we heard last night because if we're going to publish this number and there's anything new that we want to look at--- This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City Council Meeting of January 28, 2003. January 28, 2003 Council Budget Work Session Page 44 Lehman/Those won't necessarily be published, just the number will be. Atkins/Yeah, the $41,998 is all we publish, Dee. OK. Vanderhoef/Well, but we're basically saying is that if we add anything, then we have to take away--- Atkins/From something, yes, you are, that's correct. Vanderhoef/...from these folks. Atkins/That's correct. Lehman/That's exactly right. Atkins/Yes. Vanderhoef/To fund them to a lesser than what we did last year. Atkins/You got it. Wilburn/And even though the names of the groups, where the money is being allocated won't be published for budget--- Atkins/No. This is published; this goes out for public consumption but--- Wilburn/Yeah, I wouldn't think that we should wait too much longer so that the groups can do their, can plan their--- Atkins/Well, I encourage the Jaycees on the phone to get the letter here so it could be in your packet for Thursday. Wilburn/OK. Atkins/So at least you'll have something to look at over the weekend. Wilburn/OK. Atkins/That's what I asked them to do. Champion/Can that go under Miscellaneous Expense or what else would that go under? Atkins/We have a Contingency Account and the Contingency Account is intended to meet those unusual cimumstances that occur during the course of the year. If you have a $5,000 item that you wanted, you know, barring something crazy, we certainly have the capacity to do This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City Council Meeting of January 28, 2003. January 28, 2003 Council Budget Work Session Page 45 that. But the Contingency means something happened that wasn't covered, didn't think of it, some disaster befell us, whatever. Champion/Steve, when we gave that extra money to the Red Cross, where did that money come out o~. Atkins/Contingency. Champion/All right, it's the same Contingency Fund that--- Atkins/Yes, yes. Champion/OK. Kanner/! think we have to seriously consider now adding more to this total. To me, this is economic development and ties in with Visitors Bureau and I think we need to add at least $20,000 and get it back to $60,000 level of fiscal year '01 and reinvest that money into our community. I think it's a great investment; we get money back; we had--- Pfab/Six to one. Kanner/We get more; we got figures on what art does for the community; we had presentations. And I think a number of these groups are going to bring people in and we need to help them out. Even a small amount of seed money goes a long way, and I think we need to add to this. Champion/What kind, what amount you got in mind? Kanner/$20,000. Champion/Steve, I don't think we have that. Pfab/I see another of places here. If we are reluctant to take the $13,000 from the, what looks like an increasing size of the pie for the hotel-motel tax, I think that we have some, we have to bend our conscience a little bit to turn some of these away. Karmer/1 think we can budget and assume we're going to get more. We can put that in the budget. Atkins/So you have to pick a number and we'll do it. So I need to know tonight. Karmer/I think we should assume we're going to get another $10,000 from there and with this money and--- Champion/I know but $10,000 from what? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City Council Meeting of January 28, 2003. January 28, 2003 Council Budget Work Session Page 46 Kanner/From hotel-motel tax. Champion/Oh, I see. With their growing (can't hear) Atkins/Yes. Champion/Well,--- Lehman/ I would have a real problem increasing the funding for events. You know, if, I guess, you know, we are apparently recommending the same level of funding for Social and Service Agencies, if I were going to find $20,000 to spend, 1 really would have a hard time telling the Social Service Agencies that they're going to keep their same level of funding and put it into Community Events. O'Donnell/Good point. Karmer/Well, I think we can afford to increase that also. Lehman/I don't think we should increase either of them. O'Donnell/I don't either. I'd say it's (can't hear) Champion/I want to but I (can't hear) O'Donnell/Oh, well. Lehman/Well, if we don't, then we leave them where they are. We'll discuss how they get allocated at some point in the future. Atkins/All right, I won't hit you, Connie. Champion/I know. (Laughter) Champion/But I mean I really think like that uptown deal, Labor Day flea market, it's really an exceptional thing. And although I thi~ the neighborhood photographing is expensive, that maybe we could just start seed money for them to rectify other ways to get that money. Atkins/And remember they'd anticipate I believe it was five from ten, yeah, it was $10,000. Lehman/We don't want to forget that request. Atkins/No, I'm not. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City Council Meeting of January 28, 2003. January 28, 2003 Council Budget Work Session Page 47 Lehman/I'm not sure this is where it belongs, but it's a great idea. O'Donnell/It is a good idea. Atkins/Yeah. And we're checking the other operating departments to see and so, you know, I'll just test it before (can't hear) shortly. Vanderhoef/Yeah. Atkins/OK. Champion/Although I loved Englert, I think Bert's got enough of them for a while. O'Donnell/I don't think we dare to--- Champion/ I don't think we dare. O'Donnell/I think we're fine on that one. Champion/Yeah. But I don't know. I mean, could we just put it in the budget to increase for the like Send a Dream thing? You wouldn't have to spend that; (can't hear) decided to discuss it. We haven't discussed it; that's the problem. Atkins/Yeah, $41,998 right now. You have the ability at this point to pick a number. If you want to put $43,900, you're, remember this is an author, this is a budget. Champion/Right. Atkins/This is not an authorization to spend. Champion/I know. Atkins/OK. I mean, you can decide that later. Pfab/Can we look at a 2-to-1 increase and we do not even want to increase it any, I would even go so high as to set a minimum of $30,000 increase when you look at the--- O'Donnell/For what? Lehman/I couldn't find $30,000 worth of requests that we got last night but I'd be interested in funding if ~ve had--- O'Donnell/No. Pfab/Well. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City Council Meeting of January 28, 2003. January 28, 2003 Council Budget Work Session Page 48 O'Donnell/We're trying to keep a substantial part of it, Irvin, It's right there. The (can't hear) $60,000. Pfab/But that, if you took that out, it'd still be a $30,000. It stiI1 wouldn't hurt it, wouldn't cover it. Champion/I'm not going to push it but could we just go 45? Lehman/Connie wants 45. Pfab/I'm going for 70. O'Dormell/I'll go to 45. Vanderhoef/Now, i can--- Pfab/I'm voting for 70. Atkins/Did I count four? Lehman/We have 45. Atkins/OK, we'll put 45 in the announcement. Vanderhoef/We can go down if we need to. Atkins/You can always go down. Vanderhoef/I had a question. Pfab/That's why I wanted to go to 70, so we can always go down. (Laughter) O'DonnelI/OK, Dee. Vm~derhoef/Does funding or the rental dollars that we get from Shakespeare Theatre--- Atkins/Yes. Vanderhoef/...is that being used right now to pay off the bonds? Atkins/No. I doubt very much. I mean, I'll confirm that. It would be a revenue to the--- Vanderhoef/General Fund? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City Council Meeting of January 28, 2003. January 28, 2003 Council Budget Work Session Page 49 Lehman/Parks and Rec. Atkins/...Parks and Recreation Department. Vanderhoef/Revenue to Parks and Rec? OK. Lehman/Swimming fees. Atkins/Yeah, it's a traditional sort of recreation revenue. I'm sure that's how we'd book it. Vanderhoef/Then I guess what i would say when the Mud River Music Co-Op was talking last night, I was thinking about in-kinding but if that is revenue to Parks and Recreation, then I think we should send it back to Parks and Recreation and ask them if that's something that they would like to consider. I don't want to jump into their, if anybody else is interested in it. Then I do have a question. The housing inspector that we put in for a CDBG grant. Atkins/Yes. Right. Vanderhoef/Two things. Number one, are they requesting also for the benefits levied piece to come out of CDBG also? Atkins/Yes, that's correct. Vanderhoef/OK. And number two, are you expecting a policy position from Council that will continue to fund this forever? Atkins/The way we have treated CD historically, and there is no policy position, as long as the CD monies are available, that the program will continue whatever level the Federal government provides the CD money. CD money goes away, the work goes away. Lehman/Would that have to be applied for every year, wouldn't it? Atkins/What's that? Lehman/If we hired an inspector it would have to be reapplied for every year. Atkins/Well, it likely will get rolled into those certain fixed costs--- Vanderhoef/The policy. Atkins/...because if we're hiring someone, I don't want to bring someone on and have them subject to that. Vanderhoef/That was the question because we have a policy for the 105, we have a policy for the economic developmento-- This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City Council Meeting of January 28, 2003. January 28, 2003 Council Budget Work Session Page 50 Atkins/It might not be a bad idea to write something up. That's not a bad idea, kind of just make sure there's no misunderstanding about that. Vanderhoef/Well. Champion/I got to get, taken the funds out of that, just pay for that housing inspector, including the benefits, it's way too expensive. Wilburn/Connie, if there's going to be extensive discussion about this, I need to back up the table to the car. You can--1 don't mind backing around the table. Atkins/Now remember, we can go to hearing on this budget as we're talking about right now. The CD will come back to you separately. Lehman/All right. Atkins/You can vote it up or vote it down. Now, if you vote it down, that is, you will not finance it with CD, for all practical purposes unless you're willing to make some sort of a reduction somewhere else in this budget, you don't have the ability to fund it by the General Fund. Champion/My only concern is to do the economic plan (can't hear) housing inspection, are we going to leave them enough money? Atkins/I don't have a, I looked at the list of projects. I believe they'II still have reasonable margin in there. It's a philosophical question that ! could not justify under the General Fund--- Champion/Well, no, I couldn't either. Atkins/...and my reading of the Council was you were accepting the Task Force recommendations and I just took it from there and that's how. Vanderhoef/Well, I went so far as to double-check because I was--I'm still concerned always about our General Fund. And when I looked at our Human Service funding, I didn't want to decrease the total amount, so I called Steve Nasby and inquired about the govermnent level, the Federal level that we can put into Community Services. And we always take that 105 out from the top and I was hoping that we could take another 20 and allocate it from the CDBG monies and keep the 20 in the General Fund but have the same number of dollars for those folks. There is only, legally, $18,000 left in that division and they've got probably eight or else nine requests for new employees or agencies this year. And you know, $ l 8,000 doesn't do anything actually for an employee. Atkins/No. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City Council Meeting of January 28, 2003. January 28, 2003 Council Budget Work Session Page 51 Vanderhoef/So, I still would throw that out to look at it that should we have a policy that all of the services funds will go to aid to agencies rather than--- Champion/Then we'd increase our budget for aid to agencies. Vanderhoef/I wasn't--- Champion/(Can't hear) willing to do it. Vanderhoef/No, the point was that we haven't had an increase in the amount of dollars allocated to Aid to Agencies from CDBG--- Atkins/That's right. Vanderhoef/...since I've been on Council. It's been at 105, and what I'm saying is should we just close out that section and whatever we get from the government that year goes to Aid to Agencies so that it gets divvied around rather than for a grant purposes. And if it's only $18,000 more, does that make sense? Atkins/I'd have to think about that. I (can't hear) Vanderhoef/Well, I throw it out to think about. Champion/Yes, I'll think about it. Pfab/What is the purpose of those funds anyway? What is the stated purpose? Why does the Federal government send us a check for that? Vanderhoef/That's, block grant monies are given to recipient cities by population if you meet the criteria of 50,000 population or more. Pfab/And we are a--- Vandehoef/Recipient city. Pfab/We are, we get it just the fact we are who we are. Atkins/Mm-hmm. We're entitled to it. Pfab/We're an entitled city. But what does it say those funds are supposed to be used for? Vanderhoeff Ho, there's multiples. Atkins/It's a book about that thick. (Laughter) This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City Council Meeting of January 28, 2003. January 28, 2003 Council Budget Work Session Page 52 Vanderhoef/But there is one category for Human Services that is limited by percent, and that is what I called to check and see what the percent was so how much we could possibly use straight-out to Aid to Agencies. Pfab/I think you're bringing up something that is making me rather uncomfortable. I feel uncomfortable and that is, first of all, I believe that the City inspector should come out of General Fund. Vanderhoeff Oh, well, this has nothing to do with the inspector. Pfab/No, it's all right. You brought up and I listened to you; I want you to listen to me. I believe that that is a public function for public safety and if we think it's worth doing it and I think the consensus is to add another housing inspector, when you look at the number of units that we've added, the number of values that we've added, and I--there's no question to me--that that money should come out of General Fund as another City employee and the benefits. I think that to try to take from people are asking for a little bit here and a little bit there just to kind of get on their feet, I think it's a very wrong signal that we want to send to the public. I think that when we go hire a fireman, we hire this, we hire an inspector--and this is--by not hiring those people out of General Fund we are telling people who don't want to follow the law, you're safe. We aren't going to follow up on you. And that's what's causing a lot of this problem. O'Donnell/I just-- (can't hear) Wilburn/I feel like I'm (can't hear) Pfab/No, I mean, this housing inspection is ajob for the safety and well-being of the public. O'Donnell/Right. Pfab/...and that should come out of General Fund, not be taken out of funds that are supposed to go to low-income people to help them get their first foot up, get on the first leg of the ladded. Lehman/What do you mean not follow the law? Pfab/I don't--- Vanderhoef/That's a law--- Pfab/Maybe you're following the letter of the law, but I don't know if you're following the spirit of it. And I think to take the money out of CDBG to fund that housing inspector is just wrong. That's my, I told you what I think. Kanner/I think the, I had sent a memo to Steve which I see, (can't hear) we come back to your This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City Council Meeting of January 28, 2003. January 28, 2003 Council Budget Work Session Page 53 issue and resign? Vanderhoef/No, that's fine. No. Kanner/I think Irvin was putting them together because I think they should be part of the whole conversation of how much do we want to continue in CDBG and how much do we want to take away from the discretion of HCDC to decide where it should go. We ultimately get the decision but for their strong recommendation. But as far as the inspector is concerned, I believe that it's not going to solely benefit low and moderate income. I think that it's going to benefit the whole population, as Irvin was saying, and therefore should come from another part of the pot if we want to have another inspector. One suggestion is doing it from the General Fund. I suggested that we take it from increased rental fee, permit fees, for another $4 per unit. That means that people that have the most units pay for it. There's a good chance that would be passed on to renters. And then I say we come up with a proposal to give some type of rental assistance for low income, specifically targeting low income, i don't think that this specifically targets low and moderate income, and even though it is allowed by the letter of the law, the Federal law about where you can spend the money, I think that we can make a decision to limit it and say we want to be even more specific that we make sure it benefits specifically low and moderate income people. I think the effects are benefits everybody equally and that 1 don't think is the intent of CDBG Home Funds. And I would ask that HCBC be part of the discussion and we use them more creatively, not just to say how are you going to spend CDBG funds, but how can we get other funding for this position? Part o£their mission is to look at the community development. It just doesn't have to be CDBG funding; we can say we want an inspector, what's the best way to fund it? And perhaps they'll come up with a lot of different ideas. Champion/I mean, I hear your concern of (can't hear) what Irvin's point was, but I'm (can't hear) legal funds by doing all this stuff with (can't hear) funds. That's my concern. Kanner/Well, that's part of it. i think we need to be very direct--- Champion/We can discuss--- Kanner/...with that but I think there are certainly budget implications if we're saying CDBG as opposed to another area, I think that's wrong. Champion/We don't have to, we can decide when we approve the funds. Isn't that right? (Can't hear) CDBG funds. Atkins/When you approve the CDBG budget, you will make that decision, and if you choose to leave that in, then that can be assigned to HIS. If you take it out, but then I can't recommend it be taken unless you want to come up with some other financing as Steve is suggesting. Champion/Then we just wouldn't have an inspector. This represents only a reasonably accurate l~'anscription of the Iowa City Council Meeting of January 28, 2003. January 28, 2003 Council Budget Work Session Page 54 Atkins/That's right. That's correct. Pfab/But I think it takes a tremendous stretch of the imagination to say that hiring an additional inspector just benefits lower income. I don't think I want to use the word that I'm thinking. Champion/Then don't. Kanner/So you disagree with using CDBG because you're saying it doesn't pertain--- Pfab/Well, I mean the percentage of low-income people it's going to help is miniscule compared to what it's going to do for the general public. Lehman/Well, this is an issue that's going to have to be resolved when it's coming to it. Pfab/I know. But my point is we should, in case it doesn't get through to CDBG we should put that position some place so it's available--- Champion/Well, then we won't have it. We just won't have it, that's all. Lelm~an/Or we could add onto fees. Champion/Yeah. Lehman/And we can always change the fees to raise the money. Pfab/Well, will we agree to change the fees? Champion/We've already include the stuff that when we approve these funds. Kanner/No, but if we--if now we don't want CDBG--- Champion/I'm not going to (can't hear) the budget, I'm not going to--- Kanner/Well, do we want that position? You're saying only if it comes from CDBG, otherwise no position. Champion/We just won't have one. We would just wait till the next budget year and see what happens. Vanderhoef/It's awfully hard to make a case for new employees at all when you have this kind of an economy and benefit levies going up the rate that they're going up. I'm really concerned about the insurance and the benefit packages, the cost to the City, and what it will do for the whole look of the employment within the City. How are we going to continue to keep this up? We've always taken a position that we are going to protect our This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City Council Meeting of January 28, 2003. January 28, 2003 Council Budget Work Session Page 55 employees as long as we possibly can, and yet we have not rehired occasionally, so there's an attrition in a job. But that may come up more and more if the insurance and benefit packages don't come into line with our ability to tax. Champion/But we can tax all we want; the benefits aren't (can't hear) Lehman/Well, that is. And I think and this is certainly something for us to kick around, but at some point, and I talked to Dale earlier today about employee benefits, particularly insurance, being in the Cafeteria plan where it (can't hear) receive a certain level of benefit from the City and if they chose to, choose a different plan or higher coverage or a lower deductible or whatever, that they could make those sorts of contributions for themselves. And I am told and I am sure this is probably right that no union is going to be interested in reducing the amount of benefits they get from their employer. And around the State, apparently,--- TAPE 03-13, SIDE TWO Lehman/...however, I believe at some point, if we cannot have some control over what it costs us for benefits that we are going to have to control the amount of benefit levy that we're willing to levy. O'Donnell/That's right. Champion/Or the amount, yeah, but then that will control the number of employees it's happening to if you want to (can't hear) Lehman/1 don't know if it's fair--- Champion/No, it's not fair. Lehman/...but I do think if we can't do it, every other industry in the private sector that has to require employees to help cover the costs of insurance. Vanderhoef/Or change the minimum. Lehman/Forty percent increase, 15 percent increase, 20 percent increase--and we just do it. Champion/Nobody can afford--- Lehman/At some point you can't afford to do that and if we're unable to negotiate that with our employees, then we can limit it with the amount that we tax for employee benefits. Pfab/OK. I guess I, this might be a good point. What does the League of Cities say about the type of health-care delivery service and it's the inefficiency of the health-care delivery system that we're using. But we know that. But has the League of Cities ever taken a stand on that? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City Council Meeting of January 28, 2003. January 28, 2003 Council Budget Work Session Page 56 Champion/What are you talking about inefficiency of health-care delivery? Pfab/Oh, I mean, because the insurance thing, welI, you look at--now just a minute--you asked me, I'm going to respond. The administrative fee for health care that goes to an insurance company is like 25 to 30 percent. Medicare does the same job for 2 to 5 percent. And a lot of this money that's supposed to go to health care, doesn't go to health care; it goes to administrative costs that help insurance companies make a lot of money. I know--I was there. Champion/Irvin, medical care is very sophisticated and very expensive. And all of us want first- dollar insurance coverage. We got so wealthy; when the economy was just going like crazy, that insurance became, paid everything. Nobody can afford that kind of insurance anymore. You have to take some responsibility for your own care and even if we had a $2,500 deductible, and you didn't have first-dollar coverage, you would save a fortune. Insurance is expensive because we have the complete coverage and nobody can afford that anymore for themselves or their employees. I carry a $2,500 deductible for all my employees. I pay all their insurance. They don't pay any of it. It's $300 a month or $265. She does not get first-dollar coverage. If she's gets sick, she's taken care of. But she does not get to go to the doctor for free. She has to pay half of it until she's paid $2,500. You can, I mean, you got to look at benefits (can't hear), what you can afford and you've got to start in the employers, the employees have to look at it. This is what we want--no, we don't need you to pay for our birth-control pills; oh, you'd like to argue with us all night. I'm not going to argue with you. Lehman/No, no, your point is right. You can have the Cadillac or you can have the Buick or you can have the corvette. Champion/You're going to drive the Buick for awhile, lfyou get sick, you're going to be taken care of. Lehman/But we choose to drive the--but we drive the Cadillac. Champion/Our coverage for every type physical (can't hear) you go to the doctor 10 times more than necessary because they're not paying for it. I mean, and that's--medical costs are just too expensive for that. Lehman/That's why premiums are so high. Champion/That's why premiums are so high. Kanner/Well, I would disagree with that, too. I think there's other reasons why. I would agree with Irvin, but I do have a couple points to make on that. One--last year we talked about some creative solutions that perhaps we could hook up with other entities in some way, and I would urge us to have a work session on that to see if we could hook up with the school system and eventually, this is maybe a couple years down the road, get a benefit This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City Council Meeting of January 28, 2003. January 28, 2003 Council Budget Work Session Page 57 package that's in line for the two entities and then there's ways to share costs on that. We talked about that. Champion/The school district could not afford to go in with us. They really could not afford it. Kanner/Well, it's something that maybe we negotiate and they negotiate and eventually we save money. We benefit in the end together. So I would urge us to start working on that. Two-- I don't know if I'm so gung-ho on cutting benefits, but if we do I--- Champion/ (Can't hear) I didn't say I was cutting benefits. Kanner/Well, that's what we're talking about actually. Champion/I think I'm reasonable--- Kanner/Well, it's cutting benefits. It's cutting benefits. And one thing I would suggest if we do do that that we start with management not only physically but also for a symbolic measure because if we're going to ask the other employees to do that, I think we have to ask our management. Champion/So what if we just cut it across the board. O'Dormell/Same policy. Lehman/Why wouldn't it be across the board? Kanner/OK, well, I--- Lehman/ The City employees have the same insurance. Steve, is that correct? Atkins/Yes. Lehman/It doesn't make any difference whether you're--- Kanner/But we're talking about the union negotiating, the management, we have the power without negotiation to initiate change and that might be a way, if you're interested in changing things, is to start with management, instead of starting with negotiating. What? Champion/(Can't hear) changing at all. The City is self-insured; everybody has the same benefits. Atkins/Yes. Right. Champion/You can't change managers without changing them all. It's one policy. Lehman/I don't even think the law would let you do that, even if you could find it, even if you This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City Council Meeting of January 28, 2003. January 28, 2003 Council Budget Work Session Page 58 agreed with it. Atkins/You'd have to write a separate policy position for management. Champion/And then you'd have to pay a fortune for it. Kanner/Obviously, you wouldn't do it if it cost more money. But I would assume there's savings that can be had if you're going to talk about cutting benefits. It could be years before the union is agreeable to that kind of thing. Lehman/It could be a lot quicker than that if we put a cap on employee benefits. That means that we only, we will only tax so much, and that means we'll only pay so much for benefits. Champion/Well, no, that means the rest of it will come out of the General Fund. Lehman/Either--no, there's two either-ors on that, and one of them is not very pleasant. It either comes out of General Fund or you have fewer employees. That's only the two ways it works. Champion/Steven, don't misunderstand me, I'm not against it. My employees have all the benefits. I do not have a full-time employee without benefits. Lehman/Then you have a job. Champion/Yeah. So, you're too expensive--(can't hear) (Laughter) Champion/But, you know, because you have to look at how much money you have to spend on employees and we have, I think we treat our employees very well. But because the City has the ability to tax for all benefits, we don't have to budget for that because we can tax all of it, right? Atkins/That's correct. Champion/We tax all of it. So the tax--so we have great benefits and they should have great benefits, but because we have unlimited taxing ability for them, all of our increases in properties this year is for benefits; the property tax goes for benefits. And that sure isn't going to be another 5 percent. It doesn't work on a (can't hear). It's not part of, you know, it really is a concern of mine that people--my employees, my own employees--the City employees have to take some responsibility and where they want the City's money to go. And that's why I'm concerned about when we give 4 percent pay raises and we give 15 percent benefit package raises, we're now giving somebody a 19 percent raise. And that's never (can't hear). And that bothers me because nobody in this country is getting 19 percent raises or last year when it was 8 percent or 9 percent or 10 percent. So, I think when we talk about employee salaries, we need to say this employee's increase to This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City Council Meeting of January 28, 2003. January 28, 2003 Council Budget Work Session Page 59 the City expenses is 9 percent this year and not 3 percent. Lehman/It also hinders the ability when it comes to bargaining because it doesn't come out of the General Fund and they know it doesn't come out of there. There's unlimited taxing · ability for benefits. Champion/(Can't hear) We cannot tax people for all these benefits until they go off the roof. Vanderhoef/I don't think anybody really understands and in our budget book it was just so plain for the positions, the added positions that were recommended, and the ones that were not recommended. And you talk about a $50,000 employee. $35,000 of that is the salary; $15,000 of that is benefits. Champion/Oh, I think 20 percent is as close as I can find it. Vanderhoef/That's what they've got for this new housing inspector, 34--- Pfab/What page are you on? Vanderhoef/Page 34. Champion/Oh, because I'm not seeing (can't hear) Vanderhoef/For one FTE, $34,691 for salary and wages, and $14,556 for benefits. Yeah. So. Champion/Well, let me find this 20, we've probably got 30 because of they always, we pay all the benefits, and we probably aren't, the City's probably--- Vanderhoef/So, the point is that every time the City hires a new employee, we're hitting the taxpayer with a double whammy, because we're hitting them up in the General Fund and then automatically the Benefit Levy goes up. Champion/! don't think that most people in town know that we tax for all benefits. I don't think our employees, most of them probably don't know that. VanderhoefJ I think this is the lost piece. I agree with you, and this is why I keep saying can we truly afford employees? The only place we can make any dent in changing the tax rate in many cases is this attrition and go with fewer employees because that's where the biggest whammy is on to our taxpayers. Atkins/Also, don't forget that that levy covers pension. Champion/I know. Lehman/Yeah. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City Council Meeting of January 28, 2003. January 28, 2003 Council Budget Work Session Page 60 Atkins/And the pension is the bill the State sends us. Vanderhoeff And we have no control--- Champion/(Can't hear) started on that. Atkins/You just pay it. (Laughter) Atkins/When their fund under-performs, you pay. Vanderhoef/$400,000 this year for the police. Champion/When my retirement fund underpays, nobody pays it. That's another great deal. Lehman/Well, Steve, I think this is an issue that's going to have to be addressed. Champion/Oh, it is. Atkins/Yeah. Champion/He knows that. He's dealing with the finances. Lehman/I do think, if no other way of doing it that cities, or at least from my perspective, Iowa City at some point is going to have to say, this is the most we will tax for. Atkins/OK. Lehman/And obviously, but I think that's something we really have got to put on the back burner. ! think that's something we're going to have to address. Vanderhoef/1 think front burner. Pfab/But back to where this all started--I think that if we, and I think we do need another housing inspector, I think that we should make a provision of that. We can come down but we can't go up. Lehman/I think that the way we left that, Irvin, when the CDBG money comes to us, if we choose not to fund the inspector out of CDBG funds and go ahead and use that money elsewhere, we will at that time decide first if we're going to hire an inspector and if we do, if we're willing to fund it from somewhere in the General Fund or from inspector fees as--but the purpose of the public hearing, we leave CDBG the way it is. Pfab/But, for the purpose of public hearing, ! think we ought to add that employee in here and let the public speak on it. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City Council Meeting of January 28, 2003. January 28, 2003 Council Budget Work Session Page 61 Champion/I'm not willing to pay for it on the CDBG. Pfab/Well, but we can go down but we can't go up, Champion/What's right? Pfab/So, 1 think that to basically do a squeeze-play on CDBG, get it out in the public--- Champion/Irvin, we're not doing a squeeze-play. Pfah/No, well, yeah, you said if we don't, if they won't fund it, we won't--- Champion/No, we're the ones that decide whether they fund or not. Pfab/Right. But right. So, what i'm saying is, we don't have to fund it, we don't have to spend it. But it has to be available if CDBG just doesn't do it. O'Donnell/Why don't you see, Irvin, if there's four people here who want to leave it the way it is. Champion/Yes. Pfab/OK, that's fine. As Iong as you go, as long as you make your--- O'Dounell/Let's move forward. Lehman/Is there anything else that we need to discuss tonight? O'Donnell/I hope not. I got near it. Kanneff Well. Lehman/Yes. Kanner/So, two things I think we should clarify. I think we should formally say we want a work session on the health care issue and the benefits, the health benefits, benefits in general. And so that it seems there's four people or more that, three or more that want that, and I would also suggest we have a work session on--this will take maybe a half a day or longer--to start talking about is there room for any reorganization? Is there room for attrition of employees? Or less position? Which hopefully we would do through attrition. We need to have that discussion. I don't think it's been had fully, not since I've been on here really, and I think we need to have a work session, a work day on that issue. It's something that we're not going to decide in one session but I think we need to have that and I would ask that we have a work session on that in the next few months, that we start that discussion. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City Council Meeting of January 28, 2003. January 28, 2003 Council Budget Work Session Page 62 Lehman/Well, the only problem I have with that--attrition on employees, adding or removing employees, from my perspective, that is administration. Now, if we as a Council feel that we need to have fewer employees and we'd like to accomplish that through attrition, I think it's our job to tell the City Manager that this is, we have a goal, this is our goal. It's his job to come back and tell us, OK, folks, this is what you want. Now if we do this, this is what you can expect to happen. Now, is that what you really want? Now, I don't think we're ever going to come up with anything having a work session or half a day talking about this. This is strictly a management decision as to what's going to happen. If we start, if the attrition policy, if there is one, is something that come up, Council needs to come up with that, communicate that to the City Manager and he needs to respond to it. But I think we could talk all day about attrition and I don't think there's--- Kanner/Well, no--- Lehman/ ...sitting here we can come up with any place where we can legitimately remove an employee with any certainty that that's where it should come from. Kanner/No, I--Ernie, you're saying exactly what I said. We need to have that discussion about, if we're going to direct--What? Lehman/We just did. Karmer/We didn't have a--- Lehn~an/Can we go over the attrition policy, Steve? We need to reduce our employees. Tell us what we can do through attrition. What can we reasonably expect in a year? Steve comes back. I don't know what more discussion you're going to want than that. Kanner/Emie, I don't think it's that simple. We need to get response back from Steve and different areas, can there be reorganization in different units, can they be subsumed in other areas? Steve comes back with the report. We discuss it. ! think we, I agree with you, we set the broad general policy, we set the budget. It's not as simple as you say. I don't think it's just Steve--- Lehman/Complicated for him, but I don't think it's particularly complicated for us. Kanner/Well, I think it is. We have to, we do not have a policy now of wanting to contract possibly some areas, and I think we need to have that discussion. I've heard a number of people say that there are possibilities for different levels of service and maybe we can have different directions, save money, and people have to be aware there's consequences of that, like you said. And I think we need to have that discussion. I think it's more than just yes or no, not right now. Vanderhoef/And I think what we're doing tonight, setting budget, is exactly what we're talking about. Last year we did ask for budget cuts and when there was an employee who left This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City Council Meeting of January 28, 2003. January 28, 2003 Council Budget Work Session Page 63 from the planning department through attrition, that department got reorganized, and I think it's working very well at this point in time. But if the money isn't there or it's very tight, then it's the choices within management--not us--of where the cuts are going to come. So, if we think we have too many employees, one of the ways we can do that is straight out cut the budget another 2 percent. Kanner/Right. I would agree with you, and I think it's more of a discussion than we had in this budget session or the three previous ones. Vanderhoef/But that's a policy. Kanner/Right. Vanderhoef/Budget policies, we say we do it or Ernie's way, that we send it to Steve and say we can't afIbrd any more benefit levies than this. We want to cut this many by attrition through the next six months. Champion/Now, see, I'm not so sure we're talking about the benefits package. The decision we have to make is on the kind of a policy, that we're not going to tax for the next 5 percent of our property tax base for benefit levy. I mean, whatever you come up with. Lehman/No, but I think, if we have and we don't have a policy on attrition, we do have a policy that was stated by Steve last year, we approved that policy; my suspicion is we would affirm the policy again this year as we would have a no-layoff policy. Champion/Right. Lehman/We're not going to lay folks off. If we feel that we have more employees than we need and we'd like to see that number reduce by attrition, then that needs to be communicated to Steve at some point. And if that, I really don't think that we could get, if we took a half a day, I think we'd ail be totally (can't hear) by then. I don't think it'd take that long to communicate to Steve that there needs to be some, but the reorganization and that sort of thing really falls right smack dab in your lap as to how you could make it work. O'Donnell/That's exactly where it should be, Steven, not here. Not here. Atkins/Well, I would just remind you that last year we adopted a budget. You made a number of changes and the first thing we did tonight was undo one of them. We got to stick to it. Lehman/No, Steve. No, no, you sent that memo out last year after the budget was done. Atkins/But all of those reductions were made. Lehman/They weren't in the budget, that CDBG budget was a memo that came out after the--- Atkins/I didn't say you were perfect. You just got to stick to it. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City Council Meeting of January 28, 2003. January 28, 2003 Council Budget Work Session Page 64 Lehman/That was your suggestion for this year, but that, we never adopted those. Atkins/Yes, you did. Lehman/No, we didn't. Atkins/Well, Ernie, I went through that whole, I know I went through that whole list of those things and did all those things. Lehman/No, no. Go back and check it. You gave it to us and they were good ideas. Anyway, is there anything other that we need to talk about tonight? Kanner/Well, I did have a question about your memo from yesterday. Did we cover your memo? ls there more to come? It was a big question. Champion/Yeah, we'll have a discussion. We'll have a discussion. We just still have a couple agencies we need to visit and so we don't know want to give (can't hear) recommendations at this point. But we are going to recommend an amount of money to spend. Kanner/OK. I--- Vanderhoef/And that's what, we'll come back to you with that recommendation for discussion and then policy approval. O'Donnell/And let's do this before a Council meeting maybe, not at a work session. That's all Champion/Yeah, we need 15. I don't think that's a--- O'Donnell/Good. Lehman/OK. All right, guys. Atkins/You have a good night. Champion/But as the memo said, I'm really interested in some (can't hear). This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City Council Meeting of January 28, 2003.