HomeMy WebLinkAboutTRC Transcript - Fact-Finding Dialogue and Deliberation - March 18, 2023[00:00:00]
[MUSIC] I'm going to go ahead and start the meeting and thank everyone for being here. Um,
Stefanie, you already said I don't have to do roll call, right?
[00:00:15]
[inaudible 00:00:15].
[00:00:16]
Okay. If everyone will just say their name in their microphone, um, this is Chastity Dillard - here.
[00:00:23]
Louis Tassinary here.
[00:00:25]
Amos Kiche.
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Lauren Merritt.
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Wangui Gathua.
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Cliff Johnson.
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And I'm going to say Chad Simmons is here as well. Um, so we'll go ahead and get started. Um, we
call into order. First, we're going to have the reading of the nat- Native American land
acknowledgment.
[00:00:49]
We meet today in the community of Iowa City, which now occupies the homelands of Native American
nations to whom we owe our commitment and dedication. The area of Iowa City was [00:01:00] within
the homelands of the Iowa, Muskake, and SoC, and because history is complex and time goes far back
beyond memory, we also acknowledge the ancient connections of many other indigenous peoples
here. The history of broken treaties and forced removal that dispossess indigenous peoples of their
homelands was and is an act of colonization and genocide that we cannot erase. We implore the Iowa
City community to commit to understanding and addressing these injustices as we work toward
equity, restoration, and reparations.
[00:01:36]
Thank you, Commissioner Merritt. Um, again, I want to thank everyone so much for being here. We
were so excited for our first event um, here for the Ad Hoc Truth and Reconciliation Commission. I
want to just go over a couple of housekeeping options. If you haven't got any food yet, we have some
food in the back. If you need to use a bathroom or the restroom, it's going to be in this area towards
the back. And if you have um- [00:02:00] if any of the information that we're going to go over today is
you find troubling or triggering, we do have mobile crisis workers here. If they would like to come and
just introduce themselves real quick to the microphone. Um, we have that as well.
[00:02:14]
Hi there, I'm Elizabeth.
[00:02:15]
I'm Margo.
[00:02:16]
We're from the Mobile Crisis Response Team out of Community Crisis Services. We dispatch teams of
mobile crisis counselors, 24/7, 365 anywhere in Johnson and Iowa Counties, where a crisis is
occurring. Crisis is self defined by the individual, and a big mission of ours is to divert from excessive
law enforcement and unnecessary hospitalizations. Um, we can talk to anyone today that would want
to talk. We also left cards in the back. So if anyone here wants to talk, in the middle of the night, we'll
send a team out or friends, neighbors, family, anybody like that, let them know, we're always an
option here in our community.
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Thank you, Moth for being here.
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Thank you.
[00:02:52]
Um, well, without further ado, I'd like to introduce our um, facilitator, Dr. Larry Schooler, who's going
to go over our topic [00:03:00] of discussion tonight, our fact finding things. [LAUGHTER]
[00:03:05]
I really appreciate the use of Jargon, Madam Chair. Um, well, I just want to start by saying that um,
there's a joke at my synagogue that I'm fashionista, which, as you can see, is not at all true, but now
that I've facilitated at the Right House of Fashion, I think I should lay claim to being a fashionisto or
something, but in all seriousness, I- I have to say that I- I feel a mix of emotion tonight because um,
this could certainly be the last time that I'm here with you all to facilitate. And um, it's clear that there
is a lot that has been accomplished and a lot that has yet to be accomplished. And I want you all to
hear from me at the beginning, and at the end, how grateful I am to you for this opportunity and how-
[00:04:00] I don't know if this sounds the way I intend, but how proud I feel of you for the hard work
that you've done since I've been associated with you load these last eight, nine months. So I hope
that as we have conversation tonight that you take away how much power you have to make change
and see me as a supporter, no matter whether I'm sitting at this chair or watching you all from afar,
that I'll continue to support this work, that I'll continue to champion it, and that hopefully you will feel
as proud of yourselves as I'd feel as an observer of you. So I hope that doesn't come off too
parentally. I do have young children, but the intention is to express my, uh, appreciation. So what I've
done is, I've outlined a plan for us tonight that is laid out on the agenda. And I want [00:05:00] to
make sure that for folks who are here who are not on the commission that with the chairs permission,
that you know that you have a platform, um, the truth telling events are later this week, and those are
the times when members of the public are being invited to offer testimony, but I think tonight is we're
in this wonderful space, and by the way, to Mr. Wright, and that sounds funny, Mr. Wright, but
anyway, to Andre and to the Right House, this is just a wonderful space to facilitate in, so thank you
for letting us be in here. Um, but I think it's perfect partly because it will hopefully engender within
everybody a feeling that they can be part of the conversation. And so I'll do my best to keep an eye
out for people's hands that are raised if they have a question or something that they want to
comment on. I want to be mindful that this is the commission's meeting, and so it's up to the chair to
[00:06:00] determine how we're going to involve folks from the community, but I think it's important
that people be able to offer their own insights into what it is that we're talking about, but- while
Thursday night was meant to be a presentation of information, tonight's really meant to be about a
deliberation. So you're going to hear less from me up front and a lot more from yourselves with the
understanding that this meeting may only generate some preliminary consensus on this one topic,
but that would be a win. And I fervently hope that I can gently guide you all in a direction where you
come away on this topic, feeling as if you have some shared understanding. So let me lay out the way
that I've set up the agenda. I apologize, ah. There we go. So we've got a little bit of new information,
and I do want to acknowledge, even though [00:07:00] it might embarrass her council member Laura
Burgess, because not only has she been a steadfast supporter of this commission, of course, but um,
she and I have gotten to work together to help strengthen the data that you all are reviewing on this
topic, and that's very laudable and appreciated. So we'll look a little bit at some additional information
from what we had already presented. We'll also talk briefly about what our standard should be for
findings of fact. So wha- what I mean by that is, it may seem a little philosophical, but I think it's
important for this group to decide how they're going to deem something factual, and that it's not
meant to be just a meta exercise. It's really meant to be something where you determine, okay, if I
have one source for this information, then maybe I need a second source in order to [00:08:00]
confirm it, or maybe I need one source of a particular type and a second source from another type or
what have you, but I think it's hopefully, as consumer Burges and I've talked about a template of
sources as you go forward with other forms of fact finding to be able to say, is what we're seeing here
factual, or is it hypothetical hypothesis, etc? So we'll talk a little bit about that. And then chiefly, the
hope for tonight is that in advance of the truth telling events, you take the data that you've received
on this topic and come to some preliminary consensus on it. And again, when I was here in August, I
think, I talked about some of the ways I define consensus, and you may define it differently, but for
me, consensus means that we've reached a decision point that all of us can support or at least are
willing to let move forward without opposing it. So it's a little bit different than a unanimous decision
or a [00:09:00] majority vote, certainly. It's designed to say, this may not be the very first choice that
I have for our outcome, but I'm willing to live with it as representative of my core interests. So you'll
see me if I hear one person offer a suggestion and someone else push back, you'll hear me ask
questions like, well, what would enable you to be able to support what you just heard. What
amendment- what change would you want to see made to it, or are you just not able to support it?
Sometimes we use like, green, yellow, red, you know, red means i just- I'm not going to be able to
support that at all. Yellow is kind of on the fence. Green is go forward. So um, that's a key outcome
that I'm hoping you all will achieve, at least in part tonight, but mindful that the truth telling that will
happen later this week is, of course, going to enrich the conclusions that you can draw just from data
alone. And so this will be preliminary, but it hopefully can be [00:10:00] material that you then come
back to as you develop your recommendations for action going forward. I don't know that I need to
belabor the community agreements because I know you all are familiar with them. Um, obviously, it's
important for us as a group to listen fully from our hearts, allow space for silence, avoid arguments,
respect one person speaking at a time without interruptions and speaking from an eye perspective,
from our own experiences, a community of learners who are growing, who takes responsibility if we're
hurt by others words. We use inclusive and non gendered language and use each person's pronouns.
We aim to build trusting relationships and know we move at the speed of trust and we care for
ourselves and each other, and we honor what others say with discretion and integrity, sharing only
with context and in relevance to our own [00:11:00] life and learning, not as gossip. So I mentioned to
you when I was on Zoom Thursday night that I think it's important for this group to consider what fact
finding means to you and what makes something factual, and what standards should you use to
identify a piece of information as fact. And so I briefly just want to revisit some examples from TRCs
that have preceded you to give you a feel for how these other TRCs have gone about it. So, the
Greensboro TRC, as, you know, looked at a mass murder, a shooting death of five individuals in 1979.
And in order for them to collect data, they looked at things like internal police records, trial testimony,
and newspaper reports. They ended up using a standard that they labeled either the balance of
probabilities or the preponderance of evidence because in a case like this, [00:12:00] there were
conflicting narratives. And so they ended up deciding that basically they would err on the side of
something being reinforced by different sources, and if there were two sources in tension, was there a
third source that validated one side or the other. And so they would ask a variety of questions, and
this has a lot to do with the truth telling side of things, but it also, I think is relevant to fact finding. So
for someone who's testifying, they would ask, what was the person's ability to remember and relate
details about the observation they're presenting? If asked in multiple ways, do they relate the details
in a consistent fashion? Again, I think that applies more to truth telling. Did the source hear or see the
evidence directly, or is she or he reporting something they heard from somewhere else? Is there any
noticeable bias toward any particular version of events, and that's, I think important. [00:13:00] Is the
evidence consistent with other evidence from different sources, and is the evidence logical or
reasonable? So I share this with you not to say it's the right thing or the answer key, but just simply a
second opinion, an example from another TRC that was also looking at similar issues to what Iowa
Cities TRC is examining? The other two North American commissions that have met most recently, it's
a little bit more complex, I would say. Um, in Canada, you may know that they were operating with a
federal mandate with an exceedingly large budget, so really a different scope of work. Um, but there
was a mandate in Canada to turn over certain documents that were related to the investigation, and
we certainly haven't gone that far. We haven't taken anybody to court to, you know, compel the
release of any records. There also were private records [00:14:00] like student records that relate to
the boarding schools that the Indigenous attended against their will, as well as some other material
that had previously been private. And you can see that there were over 100 categories of records or
sources of fact found. And again, I guess what I would share with you there is someone's- the official
school history could have easily contradicted what someone said in testimony because that school
history might have censored or omitted key pieces of information. And so it's just important to
consider what to do when the lived experience of someone may conflict with the data that's been
presented. And then the main commission, which also dealt primarily with Native American
populations, uh, was looking at a variety of different forms of data, including the narrative or counter
narrative about the tribes there, [00:15:00] tribal state relationships, child welfare, uh, incarceration
experiences. So they were either looking at specific cases or these issues in general, as well as some
national context, which I think applies to all's work, because obviously, what's happening in Iowa City
is in some ways similar to what's happening in a lot of cities around the country on this particular
topic. And then they looked at statistical reports that dealt with their particular topic, as we have
here, training related materials, which is something we haven't gotten into as much yet, although
we've listed trainings that the police department has undertaken. Uh, the relationship between tribal
nations, organizations and the state. We've talked a little bit about er, police departments in Oroville
and Sioux City that have formed some interesting, proactive relationships between police and
community and various other reports and recommendations. So this just deals [00:16:00] with the
way in which the facts that were collected were summarized and less about the standards of- of fact.
So let me return to the question that I put to you, um, which is what standards should this TRC use to
identify a piece of information as fact? And what I'm actually going to ask you to do, is watch me open
this package. [LAUGHTER] Absolutely riveting. Um, what I'm going to ask you to do is use a pad, each
person- one pad per person. I'm going to take one and pass it along. And you should have a pen at
your disposal.
[00:16:55]
Excellent. Leave one for Commissioner Simmons. Um, what I want [00:17:00] to encourage you to do
is, um, to do some initial writing. And the reason that I recommend this as a facilitator is that when we
get into open discussion in any group, a lot of times one or two people, uh, say a lot and a lot of us
say a little, and that's just human nature. Um, but by writing something down as to your idea of what
a fact finding standard could be, we might find some common ground amongst us. We might find
some interesting perspectives that we wouldn't have heard if we just had open dialogue, but
hopefully it'll allow us to congeal around a shared, uh, idea for what our standard for fact finding could
be. So I invite you to take a couple of minutes, think about what you would want your standard for this
group to be as it relates to, uh, delivering findings of fact when you deliver your final report. And once
you're done, let me know and I'll collect them in one spot [00:18:00] and we'll review them together.
Would anybody mind if I read them out just so that we can- for efficiency sake? I think I became a PhD
because of my handwriting, so no one has any handwriting on me, uh, let's see. Fact finding, scientific
professional research as this fact finding has been. Fact finding means, try and hear two sides to
story, look up data to see if it matches, find the reason for whatever issues. Fact finding standard,
corroborated stories, reports, factual data backed by anecdotal data versus data sourced by
oppressed communities. Triangulation, [00:19:00] at least three independent trustworthy sources
agree, and evidence for a fact should be clear and convincing. Corroborate with similar testimony,
video and audio footage. You may have to acknowledge testimony as fact according to the truth
teller, but not necessarily factual - not necessarily factual in the sense of a court of law. Seeking all
information from all available sources that pertain to a particular issue or issues. Wonderful answers
there. What did you noticed as you heard your colleague's responses? [NOISE]
[00:19:52]
Um, yeah. Consistency. I think was a big theme through all of them.
[00:19:58]
Consistency. Right.
[00:20:00]
Yeah, I would agree. Consistency. It seems like we have different ways of defining things, so see-
seems like we could come to some agreement.
[00:20:11]
Multiple people talked about wanting some corroboration of a single data point to get some validation
of it from a second source I heard. Um, what else?
[00:20:27]
I think we're also talking about the adequacy of the information.
[00:20:31]
Did you say the adequacy?
[00:20:32]
Yes.
[00:20:32]
The adequacy.
[00:20:33]
Can you say more? What do you mean by adequacy?
[00:20:36]
Looking at all available reso-sources that is out there without, uh, picking or selecting on some basis
or either organization or something.
[00:20:47]
Well, I think- I think it's an excellent point, and it's important for me to admit to you all that we had to
pick and choose because of time and resources. And I think, we've omitted plenty of material that
could easily be [00:21:00] germane to your work. So it'll be important as you continue to think about
what's missing from what's been presented, because I can tell you for certain there is. There's no data
here directly from, for example, the Johnson County Sheriff's Department or the University of Iowa
Police, because of time and available resources. So to Commissioner Kiche's point. This data may not
be adequate by that standard. There may be more that needs to be gathered. Other reflections.
[00:21:38]
One thing I was saying about is that is going to be important to be able to to ask the right questions?
You know, um, because depending on how something is posed, somebody's response may be very
different because they may be looking at the question very differently than, um, how it's intended.
[00:22:00] [00:22:01]
Which is interesting to me, for a lot of reasons partly because when we were compiling information, I
was trying to differentiate between any data around policing and data that was specific to the charter
of the Commission, which has to do specifically with racial, uh, inequity. So I think your points well
taken, that there's plenty to be said about public safety in any community, but it's important to
understand what you're expected to report on and should ask of people as compared to just the
broader national conversation. Did you want to add?
[00:22:36]
No.
[00:22:36]
No. Okay.
[00:22:40]
People's ideas also touched on how and where the facts were found. Yeah, from whom, from where,
and how it was done. Yeah. We all seemed to bring this out in our idea of fact [00:23:00] finding.
[00:23:02]
To understand the source of the information, absolutely. Sources, I should say. Anything else anyone
wants to add on this topic?
[00:23:14]
The only thing that comes to mind is just thinking about how this feels vary on, like a singular
individual basis versus the larger community basis. And as we go-as you go up, the levels like defining
a fact feels a lot different in my mind.
[00:23:33]
When you say go up to the levels, you mean from individual to communities?
[00:23:36]
Small, like local view to a wider view, which is the essence of, like, discovering racial justice.
[00:23:43]
So now, that's very challenging. I mean, it's - it's what could be true and factual for one person of one
race and one community could be entirely different for someone in a different community of the same
race even. So it's hard to- hard to make generalizations in that way. [00:24:00] Well, I think that the
answers you've given provided us as report writers for this phase enough to go on. And I would say
that it's important for us to provide you with some language. And then for you to continue to play
around with it between now and when your report comes due and not treated it as etched in stone.
And to your point, ask your community, you know, is this- is this a standard that we should adopt. So
what we'll do is for your report in April provide you with some of that preliminary language, and then
encourage you to get feedback and reconsider it as you go along, but I appreciate the conversation
very much. So I want to ask before I continue with some updated information, I know there are people
here who may not have been at Thursday evenings presentation. And what I had planned to do was,
skip over slides that I covered Thursday night and focus only on the new information collected since
[00:25:00] Thursday night. And I know that we have handouts, so I think everybody has a handout.
Chair, is it okay, if for the time being I skip over those slides that were already shared Thursday night,
or would you rather mind review those as well?
[00:25:13]
I'm okay with skipping over so we can dive deep into it, but I'd like to ask the commission to see what
they think about that.
[00:25:21]
I think it might be helpful if you could give just a synopsis. Sure of those in. Otherwise, the new
information won't be in the right context.
[00:25:31]
Absolutely, yes. Let me if you'll just permit me. I need to- to calibrate things in such a way that it will -
it's like a game of hide and seek with my slides here. Give me one second. [00:26:00] Apologies for
the delay. [NOISE]
[00:26:10]
Right.
[00:26:22]
Okay. So in- at the summary level, but I would say if there are questions, you know, stop me as we
go. We talked on Thursday night about the number of different sources that were used to compile the
information that we presented to you. And again, I do want to call attention to the fact that there are
at double the number of sources available for information that's related to this topic than what you
see there. And we only made choices based on how much time we had to prepare the presentation,
and how thorough we felt we could be, uh, with the resources available to us, but we looked directly
to the police department, to [00:27:00] the city manager's office, to federal data, to other police
departments, to a couple of not for profit organizations that may be advocating for a particular, kind
of, police reform but are still utilizing datasets to draw conclusions. And then St. Ambrose University is
who compiled the stops and disproportionate minority contact study for a number of different years.
We talked briefly about how the police department compares to other departments in terms of its
numbers. And the important piece of information here is really on this slide, which shows you that the
Iowa City Police Department, in terms of sworn positions per capita is smaller than not just the US
average and not just Midwestern cities with a similar population, but a number of other what I'll call
college communities, the so called big 10 communities and four other larger cities in Iowa. So again,
this is not a raw number of [00:28:00] officers, but it's a proportionate number based on the
population of the city. And then you'll see that the breakdown of, uh, racial backgrounds amongst the
police department is similar to, but not entirely identical to the makeup of the community here. And I
have the slide, a couple of slides from now that shows the demographics of let me get to that.
Apologies for jumping all over the presentation. This is the Iowa City population demographics from
the Census Bureau. So you'll note that, um, the purple represents the Black or African-American
population. The sort of Tan represents the Asian population. The Indigo is Hispanic or Latino, the small
blue is American Indian or Alaska Native. So there are fewer- by percentage, there are fewer Hispanic
police [00:29:00] and Black police in sworn positions than there are people in the community who
identify that way, and fewer Asian-Americans who, uh, are on the police force that identify as, uh,
Asian. There were some other information provided to us by the police department about the pace of
applications, and I won't go over this in too much detail but there's the applications that are received.
There's the written test that's taken. There's physical fitness tests that people go through. There's an
interview, and then there's finally the certified hiring list. This actually is a little bit closer to the
proportions in Iowa City. This is a combined number for about an 18 month or so period, starting, I
think in May of 2022 and going all the way up to last month. And these are people who are eligible to
be hired in the Iowa City Police Department, broken down by race. This is [00:30:00] very similar to
that, so I'll keep moving. I did note in the presentation the other night about ways in which the ICPD is
trying to continue to recruit officers in a way that gives them a little bit of a leg up on other, uh, police
departments, including a bonus for those who have already completed the law enforcement academy
and flexibility on when people can submit their applications. We shared a little bit of information
about spending on policing and noted that the Iowa City, percentage of the overall budget used for
public safety is a little bit lower than other similarly sized cities in Iowa or for all cities taken in
average. We also noted that the police department budget has risen from 2018-2024 on a steady
basis, but at a relatively modest clip with the exception of what's proposed from, uh, 2023-2024
[00:31:00] which is a little bit elevated. Um, but that is an illustration, the green line of the budgets,
and the red line shows changes in percentage year on year from one year to the next. We also looked
at how police funding compares to, uh, investment in other forms of, uh, public spending and how the
per capita amount spent on policing is lower than a lot of the other departments that were examined
in this particular data set that was collected by police scorecard. These arrest numbers and offense
numbers are certainly noteworthy because as you look at the percentage of arrests by race, you will
see that Black or African-American are significantly higher more likely to be arrested than their
percentage of the population would reflect as many- as much as twice as likely [00:32:00] based on
the way that the population breaks down. So I'm looking at the second line 8.5% of the population,
19% of the arrests, and there's a little bit of a jump for, uh, American Indian or Alaska Native. Hispanic
or Latino is not accounted or captured in this particular data set. These are a little bit more recent
numbers that deal with stops, and it's important that we reminded ourselves that we're not just
talking about people who are arrested and convicted, but people who are stopped and maybe given a
warning. And this comes from the study conducted by independent researchers, and as you can see
again, when you look at the percentage of people stopped, uh, by race, you see that Blacks account
for 18% of those stopped but only about 9%, if I remember correctly, of the population. And, uh,
Hispanic, uh, stops are about in line with the population size. And then the arrest numbers [00:33:00]
jumped even more dramatically than that, where Blacks make up more than triple more than three
times the amount of, or three times more likely to be arrested than, uh, someone who identifies as
White according to this. I know the Commissioner Tasiner had asked for some block level data. We
just didn't have the time to compile that, but we'll see if we can't before our final report, but this is a
map that shows, uh, where more of the concentration of stops takes place in these two zones, one of
which is very close to where we are right now, and another is a little bit further south. This is new
information tonight that the chief was able to provide us, uh, as part of the budget process, this is a
total of about 8,800 stops that he's accounted for in the year 2022. Again, you see that Black African-
American percentage [00:34:00] is, uh, three times or more as high as the population percentage.
And actually, while I'm thinking about it, if you want to continue to reference that, uh, population
demographic, we've put that on slide 32, which is on page 16. I'll- I'll come to it in just a minute, but if
you want to continue to have that in front of you, that's the demographics of- of the city population
wise, according to the Census Bureau. So again, with a population that is about 9% Black or African-
American, the stops are, uh, up to three times as high, uh, of a proportion. [NOISE]
[00:34:53]
The chief did share that the number of stops in 2023 declined, uh, significantly. Uh, and [00:35:00] he
attributed that in part to, uh, a change in policy that I'll get to in just a minute. But this pie chart
represents only about 5,000 stops total, but the percentages haven't changed very much. Uh, you can
see still that the African-American percentage is there around 27 or 28%. So I talked the other night
about a policy enacted by the ICPD in 2020, which was designed to eliminate- eliminate or limit stops
based on some sort of jaywalking or other minor violation that didn't pose an immediate threat to
public safety, or things like a cracked windshield or a tail light or window treatments, and so on. And
at the time, the chief said that this is in part because minority drivers often have a higher chance of
being stopped than non minority drivers. And they were hoping that this would produce a reduction in
that disparity. [00:36:00] But, uh, with help from Councilman Bergeson, we dug into a law passed at
the state level in 2021. That became known as the back the Blue law for, ah, perceived support for law
enforcement. And it essentially keeps the Iowa City Police Department from having such a policy. It
doesn't mean that on the street, an officer can or cannot make a particular decision, but and I'll look
at Councilman Bergeson, and make sure I'm getting this right. But essentially, the city can't have a
policy not to stop someone for any particular reason by state law. So, uh, and as you can see, a local
government can even be penalized if they were to adopt such a policy. So that policy that I talked
about on the previous slide was undone by, uh, that state law. It's also really interesting that on my
drive in today [00:37:00] from Chicago here, I heard reporting on Iowa Public radio about this pending
bill. And I remember that Assistant City Manager, uh, Redmond Jones, talked about this as well. That
there is still a bill pending in Des Moines that would prohimit- prohibit Iowa Cities from having the
kind of community Police Review Board you have right now. It's my understanding that if this law
passes, the community Police Review Board that you have now would be eliminated. And it's you
know, certainly possible to go into a detailed conversation about the pros and cons of this bill. Um, but
I think it's just important to be aware of this of, uh, dynamic because it could play a role in
recommendations you make as it relates to how the behavior of law enforcement should be, uh,
reviewed. There was a quote in one of the news articles that I read, um, that said that several of the
Civilian review- [00:38:00] I think about five civilian review boards around Iowa. And that they started
in response to racial profiling, according to the head of the Iowa, Nebraska and AACP. So this is that
demographics slide that I mentioned that's useful to come back to. And then these, er, next few slides
deal with a variety of different ways to measure the, uh, racial breakdown of police engagement with
community members. And you'll see on nearly every pie chart that, um, in comparison to the share of
the population made up by the communities of color. So that's 9% African American and 7% Hispanic.
The number for warnings or for citations is higher for both groups. And in the case of black males in
particular and black females, it's as much as twice as high as [00:39:00] their population. If not triple.
We talked a little bit the other night about differences between types of offenses where the group A
offenses are the more serious. Group B are things like driving while intoxicated, liquor laws, drinking
under age, and so on. So this is a community that, according to the last batch of data we had has, um,
similar numbers of group A offenses and group B offenses. You see the, uh, number of, uh, arrests
year on year for the last several that they had data for related to these different offenses, not broken
down by race per se. And then we get into use of force incidents. So one thing to note here is you
want to pay most attention to the blue. And - and the - the lime green is the number of times that
there was a call [00:40:00] for the police to come to a scene. And the blue is the number of time that
force was used. They do count the display of a taser or a firearm as a use of force incident or a
firearm to euthanize a wounded animal gets recorded as a use of force. So it doesn't necessarily mean
that they struck someone or shot someone, but even if they just displayed that kind of weapon. These
next few slides show you the racial breakdown of how force is used. And it's clear that f- for, uh, black
males, the proportion of times force was used is well in excess of how much they make up of the
population. So if you combine the male and female, you get roughly 46% of the uses of force, uh,
being used, uh, on Black African American, uh, suspects, which is significantly higher. [00:41:00]
That's data for 2020 and this is data for 2021, which is, uh, does not change significantly. This is some
new information and it may be a little bit hard to parse because there's a lot here. But Chief Liston
provided us with a breakdown of the type of call for service that resulted in a use of force by police.
So what you can tell just by looking at it is that the most frequent call for service that resulted in a
use of force. Was some sort of disturbance or fight that was in progress that may have led the officers
to use force or display a weapon to get the people who were fighting to- to stop doing so. Um, but this
is broken down into, uh, quite a large number of categories. It's not broken down by race, but it is,
[00:42:00] uh, broken out in great detail in terms of the type of, uh, stop. So that I think was have to
check with Laura Cohen on this, but I think this first one might have been 2022, and this is 2023. I'll
see if she can correct me on that. We then took a look at accountability, and that goes back to what I
was talking about before on the Community Police Review Board and various forms of oversight. We
showed you the other night that, uh, the Community Police Review Board has agreed with the Chiefs
investigation findings most of the time. This is reflective of a 23 [00:43:00] year period. But I'll show
you in a second, um, some of the context that it's important for you to have about the authority or
the- um, the- the reach, so to speak, of the Community Police Review Board. This shows you the type
of allegations that were made in Community Police Review Board, uh, complaints. And we talked
about how a complaint could have, uh, more than one, ah, allegation. So that's why the numbers are a
little bit skewed. You could have one complaint and every allegation listed here, for example. And
then this - this bar graph shows you the, um, number and category of allegations that were sustained
based on the type of behavior that was alleged. I wasn't able to get additional information on the
reason why there are so many more internal complaints [00:44:00] or directed complaints on police
than there are citizen. In other words, the top section is for someone from the public who files a
complaint to say, I was mistreated by an officer. The second - the bottom half is I'm an officer in the
ICPD, and I saw something that I didn't think should happen. And as you can see, those numbers are
far greater than the community, and we just didn't have time to get that question answered, but I'll
try to get that for you before we submit our final report. But let me just quickly share with you, um,
what you may already know, which is how the CPRB, the Community Police Review Board operates.
They review a report that is prepared after the investigation of complaints about alleged police
misconduct. So they don't necessarily conduct their own investigation. They're reviewing the
investigation that has been completed. They then issue a written report with detailed findings of fact
and conclusions that explain why and the extent to which a complaint [00:45:00] should either be
sustained or not sustained. And they also can weigh in on broader police policies, procedures, and
practices and may recommend, uh, modifications to them. But they don't have any sort of, uh, power
or authority over discipline. They can't discipline an officer, they can't vote and decide how an officer
should be punished, and it's, uh, not functioning as a court of law or substitute for legal action. So I'm
not saying that to - to, uh, denigrate them in any way, but I think it's important for you all to
understand the limits that they are under. Which may affect how many complaints they receive if
people feel that they're not sure what will come of filing a complaint. And again, the state Is
considering a bill that could do away with the CPRB's existence altogether. Go ahead.
[00:45:55]
Um, who compiles that, um, investigation and who investigates and gives [00:46:00] in the report?
[00:46:01]
Chief of Police, is my understanding. The - the chief - the complaint can be made to the CPRB, but
they wouldn't themselves conduct an investigation. Oh, there's someone here with a Clarification.
[00:46:15]
[BACKGROUND].
[00:46:17]
Mandy, if you can come to the front and say your name, please?
[00:46:24]
Sorry, Mandy Remington, I'm completing my four-y ear term on the Community Police Review Board
right now. And we actually do complete our own investigation, um, that is after the Chief completes
an investigation. So first, the chief completes an investigation. We receive the original complaint and
the Chief's investigation. We then do complete our own investigation. Um, we have access to body
cam, we have access to dash cam. We have the opportunity to reach out and ask [00:47:00] the
complainant to come in and have a conversation with us. Um, however, yes, we are very limited to
only being able to sustain a complaint if there's an actual policy violation. And one thing that we often
find is that there is something that happened that was unacceptable in a lot of people's eyes, but is
not a policy violation. And so that is where that comment section on our reports comes in. Um, that is
something that I would highly recommend digging into. I've tried to take advantage of that section
when I've written reports as much as I can to illuminate various things. Um, so yeah, there's no
disciplinary power, um, like you said, no legal authority, but we do have access to actual video
camera and potentially to the complainant.
[00:47:56]
Thank you.
[00:47:56]
I appreciate that. [00:48:00] We talked a little bit last time about the extent to which community
members have specifically brought concerns about biased based policing. Both were found to either
be, uh, not sustained, meaning this - the, uh, review exonerated the officer, finding that their actions
were justified. And in the second case, uh, it had been another agency, not ICPD that was involved.
This has a little bit of updated information. Um, it's very - very time consuming to get all of the
lawsuits filed against the City of Iowa City that may also include ICPD. And so what you see in front of
you is a very small subset of those lawsuits. What I attempted to do - what we attempted to do was
identify a few cases that were specifically relevant [00:49:00] to, uh, your charge. And I do want to
thank Chair Dillard. I'll talk about the case that you brought to me, uh, on the slide after. But here
were two cases that we wanted to make sure you were aware of. The first involves, uh, a man named
Anthony Watson, so Watson versus ICPD. He sued both Is - Iowa City PD and Coralville's PD and two
officers for negligence, false arrest, false imprisonment, intentional affliction of emotional distress,
and malicious prosecution. That suit was settled by both cities for $390,000, and they each paid half
of it. And he had been stopped for reckless driving, tested negative for both alcohol and drugs. The
officers allegedly used kind of a subjective, like, he looks like he might be on drugs as kind of, uh, a
standard for determining that he was under the influence of marijuana. So there was no admission of
wrongdoing [00:50:00] by ICPD or the city, but the case was, uh, settled.
[00:50:06]
Then this case, uh, that's actually partially still pending involving a man named Chris Kelly. He sued
Iowa City and Johnson County for illegal racial profiling, racial discrimination, failure to intervene, etc.
He was, uh, jailed for eight months, and a federal judge released him, uh, when the judge said that
the case amounted to a story of "Walking While Black" that's a direct quote from the ruling made by
the judge in this case. And the allegation was that perhaps the person that Mr. Kelly was stopped
based on the direction of a county prosecutor who thought that Mr. Kelly was, um, liable for some
other offense. And when he spotted him on the street, he apparently contacted a police officer to ask
that he be, [00:51:00] uh, questioned or detained. Mr. Kelly's lawsuit is to my knowledge, still
pending, but parts of the lawsuit that are related to racial discrimination were dismissed, but this is a
case in which the plaintiff alleged uh, specifically racial profiling. And I'll just mention that there is
another case at the top of the list, the Tolston versus ICPD case where racial profiling was also
alleged, but that case was also dismissed. I shared this the other night. But in the case of Mr. Watson,
the specific officers involved, including an officer who was uh, captured on video forcing a teenage
black male to the ground in recreation center in 2015, that prompted an online petition calling for the
end of discrimination against Black youth, and a little bit of modification to procedures and policies to
focus on deescalation techniques. And then that same officer who had [00:52:00] resigned from the
ICPD was also investigated while at a different agency for seeming to on video differentially- differen-
differentiate between two suspects or two parties, one of whom was black, and one of who was white.
He was placed on administrative leave, but cleared of any wrong doing. Again, uh, he's still in law
enforcement, but not at the ICPD. And then thanks to Chair Dillard, I did wanna to bring forward this
other case. This was - this did not produce a lawsuit, but it was the death of a Sudanese American
who was living in Iowa City and was shot and killed by a Johnson Co - Johnson County Sheriff's deputy,
about 15 years ago. The investigation conducted by the attorney general found that the shooting was
justified because Mr. Deng had stabbed someone and apparently [00:53:00] refused commands to
drop the knife. The witness testimony or the witness accounts were conflicting. Some said that he
was, um, I guess, menacing in some way, others didn't. The media reports that came out about the
case uh, indicated that he might have been himself struck by the other individual before he struck
back. And some even said that they weren't even sure he had a knife in hand or was threatening the
deputy before being shot. And at a press conference after this, several speakers alleged that Mr.
Deng's race played a role in how the deputy handled the incident. No lawsuit, to my knowledge was
filed in this matter, but it certainly is uh, indicative of a concern on some people's part about racial
profiling. Uh, if it's okay with Vice Chair Merritt, I'm not going to repeat the Coralville anecdotal
material, but [00:54:00] it's very interesting, and it's there in your uh, packet, as is the work that we,
uh, were able to get information on with Stefanie Bowers help about Sioux City PD. And then again, we
were able to share a- a list of trainings undertaken by members of the Iowa City Police Department
that are related in some way to your mandate. I believe that all of the trainings that you see here are
required. Some may not be required by every single officer, but they're all required trainings, either
for supervisors, non-supervisory staff, or the entire department. And I think we discussed this in depth
as well. These are some of the things that we have yet to be able to find. I do think that it's important
to look at the activities of the Johnson County Sheriff and in the University of Iowa. It's just important
to try to compare apples to apples, because obviously, Johnson County patrols more than [00:55:00]
just Iowa City, and the University of Iowa PD only patrols a part of Iowa City, so it would take more
time than I think we have to be able to do that. And there isn't that we know of, although our friend
from the CPRB might know this, that- that we didn't find a breakdown of the race of people filing
complaints to the CPRB, uh, nor did we find breakdown of race of those calling police and are those
who are subject to calls of police, although you could see the race breakdown, racial breakdown for
stops, warnings and arrests. The heat map for calls of service is under repair. It's being worked on as
we speak. And we did get the types of arrests where force was used. We showed you that here a little
while ago. I just want to give Commissioner Simmons his seat if he'd like it. You're okay? So, uh, chair,
I'm happy to [00:56:00] do a couple of things. My- my goal would be to get us into discussion. Um, but
if the commissioners have anything else that they wanted to ask, that I'm in a position to answer, I'll
be happy to try. If community members wanted to ask anything, if you wanted to recognize anybody,
I'm happy to try to answer any of their questions before we get into a discussion.
[00:56:19]
Thank you, um, Larry. First, anyone? Any commissioners that want to ask some questions?
[00:56:25]
Yeah, I choose that. So, Larry?
[00:56:27]
Yes, sir.
[00:56:27]
A couple of things. First, will we have access to the raw data that you have access to?
[00:56:35]
Absolutely, commissioner. You'll have everything that we have. Yes.
[00:56:37]
That'll be in the form of a spreadsheet or something that we can?
[00:56:40]
Yes. We, um, we can- we can provide at any format but I think a spreadsheet would probably be the
most useful to you. It's sort of multiple spreadsheets. So it might end up bring 15 tabs on one file or
something of that nature, but absolutely, we intend to give you all that we have.
[00:56:58]
And then in terms of the [00:57:00] whether they were customized little algorithms or whatever
algorithms used to generate the graphs based on the, we also have access to those, like how you
generated them?
[00:57:10]
Yes, sir. And I would say to you that most of the graphs were provided to us. The only graphs really
that were not were things like the- the aggregation of applicant data that was done in table form, and
we just mashed it up into a graph. But a lot of the graphs were just pulled directly from city data.
[00:57:32]
So that for those, you don't have the actual raw data that went into the graph you don't?
[00:57:36]
Correct. Not necessarily. I mean, but I think the raw data is exists.
[00:57:39]
Exists?
[00:57:40]
It must exist. Uh, we just may not have been given it because it was more expedient to just, you
know, provide us a compendium of data, and we used it that way.
[00:57:51]
Okay.
[00:57:52]
Yes, sir.
[00:57:55]
Only other thing I have, this Commissioner Johnson, uh, a little bit more information on the back
[00:58:00] to blue, uh, and how they're planning on, uh, basically abolishing, uh, any accountability?
[00:58:09]
Yes, sir. Um, I- if- if we have some time while I'm having you all work on this next exercise, I can try to
pull the text from and I know Mr. John's has it also of the law that's pending that relates to community
police oversight, uh, so that you understand what's being proposed.
[00:58:26]
Absolutely.
[00:58:30]
This- this relates to what commission -Commissioner Amos. This relates to a Commissioner Lou talked
about.
[00:58:35]
Get a little closer to the microphone?
[00:58:36]
Yeah. My name is Amos. And this relates to what Commissioner Lou has talked about on the data. And
we know history is important. It is what actually sometimes make us react and respond for good
change. We don't just look at one thing on one day and say, no, this is bad. We give people time.
[00:59:00] And the community can also give authorities time, but it reaches a point where they say
the data is sufficient enough to call for action. The Iowa City Committee- community has done that in
several occasions. The Iowa City Police Department has done that too in several locations. I'll talk with
the Iowa City Community. They've responded and in 2013, they called for an Ad Hoc, just like I was
here commission to look for diversity and for which police action was a very important thing. There
was a report that was given. Probably that report was very instrumental in making some of the
changes that are now being denied by the State. And so what I would want and this is for the help of
others is to have a history [01:00:00] of those reports, like the ad hoc committee. The report that it
had is not showing up here. I really looked for it last night and I couldn't get hold of it because that
could have really helped me a lot. So that's not the second. On telling the story about
disproportionality. The studies started in maybe 2005. The good studies, that is by Pro- Professor
Chris Burnham of Ambrose University. And I really spent a lot of time last night looking at all the
studies, and he's done a very good job. Yeah. I went there with a lot of suspicion and it is done
probably better than the others. But earlier on before actually came to the scene, we had a study
from Louisville University in 2000 maybe five or six. I'm not sure of that very well. And that was a very
bad one. And I think the police department did a very good thing [01:01:00] to work with Prof. Chris.
Now they're doing another good thing working with the University of Iowa Public policy. That was
approved by the city, and I don't know when. I think they've had some time. They must have some
information that can supplement what Professor Chris has given us. So we would want to see what
they're doing.
[01:01:22]
Yes.
[01:01:22]
What is their funding that is new. And then that can help us a little bit. But I want to emphasize on
disproportionality. Chris professor gives us a lot of history, 2005, all that. I wonder if I was in a class
probably would show how I want it to look like because graphs tell us like he said, a lot of history,
where changes have happened. And I think the conclusion that you've- you have alluded to earlier has
been that there's no increase in disproportionality. I could see that a little bit, but that does not mean
[01:02:00] the problem is out. Yeah. What we don't know is whether we have reached a maturity
where the city actions and changes are gonna make any difference yet. Is it now just based on the
behavior of the community, the people who are being caught? Could be reached a maturity, or there's
still room for im- improvement, and that's what we're going to worry much about. Yeah. So I really
need that. It's going to help other people looking at our report. Otherwise, if we look at it in one
section, cross section at one time. I think the community will say, hey, what's that commission doing?
And me, personally, I don't like stuff like that. Yeah- yeah. So - so it's going to be hard on you. I don't
know who's gonna do this, but we really- and it is not only our commission here requiring that. I
looked at at the Ad Hoc Police commissions in other cities, in Louisville, I think Virginia too, I looked at
that too. They make an attempt to tell you the story where we're coming from. It is good for the
community. It actually sometimes [01:03:00] shows how good the police department is helping and
working towards change. So that our conclusions are not biased in the sense that this is bad. So that
story I think I'll need. Thank you for now. I'll- I'll give her other commissioners opportunity.
[01:03:16]
Just so- just so I'm sure, I heard you talk about the work of the Ad Hoc committee in around 2020 or
so, I believe, that was looking at, uh, proposed reforms to policing in the wake of the protests that
took place in the summer?
[01:03:34]
No. No- no. This is very recent. This is earlier on. The Ad hoc Commission came in 2013, 2014. Yeah.
[01:03:42]
It shows further back.
[01:03:43]
By far back.
[01:03:43]
Further back. Okay.
[01:03:44]
And it was a response from the community, just like the community responded during the Floyd case.
It was just like this one. Yeah.
[01:03:51]
Okay.
[01:03:51]
And- and I wanted to see what they did in that commission, what conclusions they had. Yeah- yeah.
But the community was really, really [01:04:00] up.
[01:04:01]
Absolutely.
[01:04:02]
Yeah. So that and then a longer range of information from Professor Barnum, as well as perhaps some
new information from the new research partners at the University of Iowa.
[01:04:13]
Yes.
[01:04:13]
Related to the proportionate stops.
[01:04:15]
Yes, because when you look at the history, you find that earlier on before that 2013 commission, the
disproportionality was terrible. It was almost five times, four times. We've reached a point where now
it is almost two times. And as I want that history. That's why the community really really responded in
2013, and the city did a good thing to sit down, chair I mean, assemble an ad hoc committee like
ourselves.
[01:04:43]
Thank you very much, sir. I've made a note of it. Go ahead, Dag.
[01:04:46]
So just to build off on what Amos has just said that if we're gonna understand the changes over time
and what the current problem is, we're gonna have to get into the [01:05:00] weeds with respect to
the disproportionality. And that's why we need the raw data. So if there's three times the expected
number of stops, what exactly are those stops for? Because unless we know exactly what those stops
are for, we're not going to be able to know what additional training might be called for or whether
training is ever gonna resolve it. So I think it's important to be able to get as much of the ground truth
co- that we can from the individualized data, and then we can all have a chance to look at that.
[01:05:32]
Absolutely.
[01:05:39]
Larry, um, a question. When you were doing your research, were you able to run into any other
organizations in the area that are also looking into this stuff or?
[01:05:50]
I think my answer to that is incomplete chair. I mean, I think I was really just trying to see how much
information could be collected across the sources that we [01:06:00] identified. Um, and so it's my
neglect that we didn't tap into other non governmental organizations collecting data like the NAACP.
Um, we would if we had more time.
[01:06:12]
And then, um, could you share with us what were- like what was your experience in collecting the
data, difficulties, or challenges, or the office?
[01:06:22]
Yeah I mean, I- [LAUGHTER] Police Chief Liston has been very responsive to all of our requests. Um, I
think there are interesting limitations not through any malfeasance of his necessarily, but just
interesting limitations on how recent some of the data is, and how thorough some of the data is on
your specific charge. Meaning, the fact that we can't identify arrests or offenses by someone who
identifies a Hispanic, or Latino [01:07:00] in the FBI statistics, and can't go beyond 6, 7 years ago. This
is very odd. I don't know what to make of that. But I think that the amount of information to be had
about the interactions between police, and civilians is pretty vast. I'm- I'm, sort of, pleasantly
surprised in that respect. Because a lot of times it would only be- you might expect it only to be
something that's, kind of, public record like a police report, you know, an arrest and a police report or
charges filed. By the way, I didn't say this, but I know that part of the story around criminal justice is
what happens after someone is charged. And that's an extremely important part of the process,
meaning, how are they charged? How are they defended and well beyond what we have time to
research. But, there's a lot to be said for what happens to, um, a particular [01:08:00] defendant
whether White, Black, Hispanic, Asian. When they are put on trial or, you know, looking at the plea
bargain or something like that, and that's a whole other batch of information. Um, I also think that the
way that we can review matters brought before the Community Police Review Board is not as easy.
This is no reflection on our friend from the CPRB, but just the way that the database is organized is
not as easily searched, is the best way I can say it. Um, and I think that her point about the- the notes
taken is something that I think would be very helpful to have someone go through in detail. You know,
all of those what I'd call qualitative data around how this independent body reviewed allegations of
misconduct. I think that's a really important thing to look at, because the- the fact that only eight of
the [01:09:00] complaints made it to the point where the CPRB and the chief diverged is not the whole
story by any stretch. If anything, it's- it's- it's might be misleading. But in the absence of being able to
go through all of that qualitative data, it's hard for me to, you know, give you much more information.
Um, and the thing that I think is most, um, not most, but interesting to think about is what is it that is
or isn't leading someone to go through with a complaint. And I'm not - I don't mean to suggest that
there's way more misbehavior than the number of complaints, but it certainly is a relatively small
number I think. And so it would be interesting to maybe in the truth telling phase or in some other
way try to understand why someone didn't pursue that. And that's not a dataset that we know of
existing. It would have to be collected, you know, why someone did or didn't pursue a complaint.
Those are- [LAUGHTER] those are our expert.
[01:10:00] [01:10:03]
Until sometime within the last two years, this was a change that, um, I helped pursue. If you did not
have access to a printer and postage, and you wanted to file a complaint, you had to walk into the
police department to get an application and fill it out. Um, so I think that was an obvious barrier-
barrier for power dynamic reasons. When somebody has been harmed, they don't wanna walk into
the space of the people that have harmed them. They are now available online, but there also hasn't
been a big effort to make that known. You can now file a complaint online. You can now participate in
a community police review board meeting through Zoom. But they're already talking about taking
Zoom accessibility away, because of a lack of public participation. But there's been no press release.
There's been no, hey, [01:11:00] you can do this now, um, so people don't know about it.
[01:11:07]
I wanna thank you Mandy, for being here as a representation of the Community Police Review Board.
Thank you.
[01:11:17]
Other questions before we continue?
[01:11:22]
Commissioner Amos, again. On the facts, the problem that you presented to us, where we have the
answers in there. We are worried about I can tell you about the sources. One of the sources that is
also missing here is opinion surveys.
[01:11:43]
Opinion surveys.
[01:11:44]
Yeah, we wanna get the pulse of the community. The Iowa City Police Department did their own
opinion survey in 2016, and they had five questions. In those five questions, [01:12:00] they did not
ask anything about ra- racial relations, or what they think the community think about them dealing
with the differences, and the diversity in the community. They were just asking about how well do we
do? How good is our job, and there were five questions. And later there were comments later that
people said, In the comments section which are very many, is where you find individuals now making
an attempt to fill that gap. By putting their own comments about those, kind of, problems the
community is having. So that was a bad job by the police department, but I think it was maybe their
first attempt to do a survey, because they're not usually doing that. They usually hire other people.
And that is in the PDF's 2016 survey, Iowa City Police Department we can look at. Is something that
will- why I would probably I don't wanna get recommendations now consensus, but something that
we'll look into how often we can do those opinion surveys. Also, related to opinion surveys, [01:13:00]
the Johnson County leader Health Survey last year two years ago in which they were seeking opinion
on safety. They consider safety as a very important aspect of health of the community. Probably
mental health. If they think the community is worried about some things, they don't have the freedom
to move. They are afraid of going somewhere because of what they think, or of something triggering a
trauma of what they have. That, even though they might be healthy physically is really a big deal.
And we don't get experts. In our commission, we were not given or we would have benefited from the
experts of police behavior on mental health, how it affects community to do their jobs, their
workplaces, their freedom of movement, do other things. We don't have data on that. So much of this
data, the community ab serves in their bodies. All we see here are reports of stops and other things.
And [01:14:00] the story probably ends there. But in my opinion, I think in the future I will recommend
we have opinions on the impact of that thing on people's health, and other things here. So that's why
I need opinion surveys. The one on Johnson County is available. You can look at it, and I think I sent it
to you associate. Maybe, I think you remember that. Yeah. And it's not that bad, but we have
concerns from the minorities. Yeah, yeah.
[01:14:32]
It's valid- it's valid. I appreciate you mentioning that, um, and we'll certainly try to include it in the
report to the council.
[01:14:40]
This is Commissioner Wangui. I am going to tag my contribution to what Amos is talking about. Okay.
[01:14:58]
I'm so sorry. Just asking [01:15:00] for a clarification on the state law. I'm sorry, Commissioner.
[01:15:04]
Yeah, I'm saying I'll- I'll piggyback on what Amos has shared by- thank you, Larry for bringing in
making John Deng's death back in the summer of 09 part of this fact finding. Because it ties to what a
lot of what Commissioner Amos has talked about. It has made me curious. For example, John Deng's
case as far as me as a community member, and being a community member, uh, an African
immigrant, and John Deng was a refugee who [01:16:00] sought refugee, and asylum in Iowa City
from what has been going on in Sudan- South Sudan for the longest time. But then ends up being shot
on the street. The case took- you've got the facts and when I go back in the exact time, but it took
about a month. Back then, it wasn't the way it was today. For example, how the, um, community
people who were able to agi- agitate for George Floyd, that didn't happen, and I'm not saying that
what we have, what was investigated is not what was. But the fact that it keeps coming back and now
it's part of this fact finding is that [01:17:00] there are some people who are still not satisfied by the
outcome. Uh, so where I'm getting to with this is whether you still have time? And if you don't,
whether to still be able to look at Amos talked about minority. And back in 2020, I don't know whether
you'll be able to still make that part of your fact finding. April 2020, we had, uh, the Kenyan
community had brought an agenda to see, to be heard by the TRC, and to get help on looking into
Kenyan who- who was founded at 6:00 AM in April of 20- 2021. [01:18:00] Where I'm going at with
this is ever fact finding on whether the- the numbers, whether the same attention and the same care
investigation of deaths of people, whether, uh, those two cases are mentioning this particular one. I
think his name is. I know the last name is Gila, the one in April 20- in 2021. Whether Gila Deng and if
probably, if you were having somebody called Smith, the treatment of how the cases were concluded
would have been the same. So and whether it's still within? And I'm still thinking it's still within the
scope of this fact finding, even if you don't get to that- that just bringing out whether [01:19:00] in my
own opinion, and also the research and experiences, anecdotal evidence and my own reading. It isn't.
Again, the numbers are disproportionate, how these dates are treated. But it- it would be good to see
what would come out of that.
[01:19:26]
Yeah, the only thing I could think of Commissioner that could have maybe efficiently, I mean, I
wholeheartedly agree with you about the relevance of the case to your work. The only thing I was
thinking about in terms of an efficient way that we might be able to look into it is perhaps so, for
instance in Mr. Deng's case, the Iowa Attorney General conducted the investigation. I might be able to
identify the times in which the attorney general has investigated either ICPD, Johnson County, or
University of Iowa, and what came of those [01:20:00] cases over a certain period of time. The
problem becomes if it doesn't get there and there is no documentary record, then it's hard for me to-
other than doing interviews, you know, it's hard for me to know exactly what the data shows. So I can
attempt to search that way, which might yield some fruit. But I've made note of your case and we'll
add it to the file.
[01:20:23]
There might be a situation too where certain, kind of, cases have to be, um, done at that level.
[01:20:31]
I think that any time I could be mistaken about this. I don't know if Counselor Burges knows. But, you
know, anytime- at least in my state, I think anytime that a weapon is discharged or any sort of, you
know, death and custody. I mean, I would think that a case like that would almost always get
investigated by a body external to whichever law enforcement agency conducted it. Could be a DOJ I
guess, but [01:21:00] it usually would be a state attorney general.
[01:21:02]
And we've also had cases in which the city hired an independent investigator. So,um, the one that
comes to mind was the incident in which a number of protesters were tear gassed and pepper
sprayed on June 3, 2020, and we just hired an outside firm to do that. I do not know what the
threshold normally is for triggering who would do a different investigation.
[01:21:32]
So, Larry, if I can follow up on that.
[01:21:35]
Okay.
[01:21:36]
Go ahead, Luke.
[01:21:39]
Go ahead. So Larry, I was just gonna say that I don't know if this would help, but it seems to me that
maybe to address some of this, you could look at if this is easily accessible. Unsolved suspicious
deaths by race. [01:22:00] Because that would give potentially an- an index of who's putting
resources where? But I don't know if that.
[01:22:09]
I could certainly ask for that information. I would think that something like that might be available,
but it might have to be compiled as opposed to existing as such. Go ahead.
[01:22:20]
Just to the previous question, if the chief of police is involved in the situation that the complaint is
about, then it falls to a second person. And I I think that that second person is the city manager, but I
could be wrong. And then if the city manager is also a part of the situation, then that's when it's
supposed to go to an independent third party. And in this situation, because they had activated this
entire response that involved multiple forces, the chief and the city manager were both involved in
the incident.
[01:23:00]
Thank you.
[01:23:01]
Commissioner Amos, um, this is a question on budgets police funding, and, uh, in the last meeting, I
was worried about-
[01:23:14]
Are you asking for- for- budgets to who?
[01:23:18]
Police budgets.
[01:23:19]
Police budgets. Law enforcement budgets. When we look at the graph, and I think you will remember
it is going up, and we have explanations for that. And Commissioner Chad helped me with that a little
bit on the issues of inflation, insurance, and other things, which are always true for many other depa-
every department. And, um, in relation to that, we also see that there's not much increase in the law
enforcement personnel, but somebody was asking that, how comes when we are looking at the law
enforcement personnel, we bring issues of dis- disprofessionality in [01:24:00] terms of the size of the
city, comparable to Iowa and other factors? I think mainly the size of the city is what matters very
much as see in our reports. One thing that they seem to be neglecting is crime rates. Police
departments don't just do things for the sake of it. They respond to crime rates. So the cities could be
the same size but if the crime rates due to other reasons, maybe unemployment, social conditions in
those communities are very bad, this is not going to be the same, yet they are of the same
population. The Iowa City Department has data on crime rates. That's their Number 1 data that
actually is very important for them, and the- they can track that over years. And they never use that
to compare and correlate police enforcement [01:25:00] level or personnel with crime rates. We know
they do that. In the other previous meeting, I talked about the establishment of the satellite commiss-
police station in the southern district there. It was a response to the spike in crime rate in that area.
So we know they do that. Even their documents talked about it. On that day I was very much afraid to
talk about it because it was touching on police strategy and other things. I thought it was a sacred
issue, but last night, when I didn't sleep, I found there's a public document that explains why that
happened. So I can talk about it. So it gave me evidence that they respond to where crimes are. So if
we in the community are not that bad, we don't need to have very many. Somebody was worried,
maybe one of the commissioners, why I'm worried about the budgets and other things. And I was
saying can we bend the curve? [01:26:00] It's okay. It's an issue of efficiency. Maybe the people are
really getting good, the community is a very good community to live in, everybody likes one another,
they don't want hurt one another, there's not much crime. Yeah. So we can divert some of those
resources to issues of mental health. Then, the Sudanese who was killed was suffering from mental
health. He was a guy who was homeless. He could have been helped through other sources. So tho-
that is where the commissions work is on reallocation of resource, efficient use of public resources. It
does not mean that we are against other things here.
[01:26:39]
Well, I think I- I just want to flag as someone who carries very deeply about, you know, the ultimate
result of your work. You can certainly make a recommendation informed by data and by first-hand
testimony about what you think the police depar- how you think the police department should be
staffed or budgeted. [01:27:00] I mean, it may seem like a level of detail that's meant for people like
Council member Burgess, but you're here to try to remedy perceptions or realities of racial
mistreatment, racial inequity. And if you believe that even though the comparison of expenditure and
the comparison of department numbers is still too high, you- you can say that. There's nothing-
there's nothing outside in my opinion, at least. Professionally, there's nothing outside of your purview
as a commissioner that would keep you from being able to say that. You could even draw a
conclusion that, despite how this department compares in size to other departments, that there are
too many officers. You could make that- you could make that determination, um, but I would
encourage you to allow truth telling and maybe some conversation directly with the department to be
incorporated into that rather than doing that just with the data that we've been able to collect for you.
[01:28:00] [01:28:03]
Could I build on that for a second? So with that graph that you have there, would it be difficult to
throw in another comparison that's just based on crime rates?
[01:28:18]
No it's, uh, city- cities with similar rates of crime and staffing. We can try.
[01:28:25]
Okay. I mean, I think that would help address the question. I think it's important because there's a
way in which, I don't know if it's a perfect analogy but it's kind of like workload. And so if there's a lot
of workload, then it- it wouldn't necessarily have to so.
[01:28:41]
I have a quick question. Maybe you might be able to answer. Um, because what reason, I- I believe
that- that the number of police officers is based on a per capita because it's think about the tax
dollars and the- the amount of money to pay for the [01:29:00] salaries and that kind of stuff, or how
is that?
[01:29:07]
Now to my understanding and Chief Liston would be the one who could answer that best but to my
understanding, it's really just based on, um, what the department requests and how the city manager
responds to that and then how the council responds to that, but I've been I've never been, um, I've
never had any kind of, you know, formula or recommendation other than these kinds of statistics. And
I do think in the 2020 preliminary plan to restructure the police department, there were those- some
of those comparisons of crime rate and, um, this type of data, you know, near each other. Not- not in
graph form but in a table.
[01:29:45]
But there's looking at the data, and then police would decide, like, how many staff that felt needed to
deal with it, that kind of thing or is that-
[01:29:57]
I think so. Yeah. And- and he may be using formulas. That's [01:30:00] just from where we're sitting in
terms of the budgeting process. We're not presented with that information.
[01:30:09]
Commissioner Morton, the same issue of budgets. Um, we might need to also see the urge in which
the Iowa City Police Department is. In terms of- the urge in terms of the proposals- budgetary
proposals in terms of requirements for more money.
[01:30:33]
You said the urge is that-
[01:30:34]
Yes. The urge to- for- for the demand for- the demand for more resources. And over time, we wanna
look at because it could be that it is the council- the city council that is saving us. We don't know. How
many times have they made proposals, 10% increase, 20% in every budgetary [01:31:00] cycle?
Suppose we had a council that was accepting everything, what would have been happening? We want
to see how- how much resistant? How- how wise our city council is, in terms discretionary, in terms of
making sure that everythings are done measurable ways. So I wanna see that gap in which- and it
could be that there isn't that big gap in terms of their demands for additional resources, equipment,
and other things. That maybe sometimes the city feels is not necessary. Things that the community
feels, and I'm not talking about this because I'm just worried about the money thing academically.
These are things that usually when you take the opinion of the people in the community they talk
about. They are worried about them. Sometimes they don't have a way to translate that- those
worries into other things, into other policy issues. So I want to see different budgetary proposals,
which ones over a year, maybe 10 year period, 20 period, [01:32:00] something like that. Then we
see how wise, how good our city commission is in terms of protecting our resources for our safeties.
[01:32:08]
So I just want to make sure I'm understanding the data you're looking for because we have data about
what the police budgets are. Are you talking about what they initially requested and how that
compared to what was approved?
[01:32:22]
Yes.
[01:32:22]
Okay.
[01:32:26]
Tying in with, uh, uh, what, uh, Commissioner Amos and Commissioner Merritt have just said about
budgeting and- and public safety funding. Uh, I- if possible before you wind off, anyway, you are
winding- you're winding up. Uh, I- I- I wonder whether it would be possible [01:33:00] to fact find
around the statistics on- on the use of public safety, uh, or- or calling public safety along cultural ratio
lines because, uh, everybody pays taxes and they fund public safety, but on being served and calling,
uh, and where I'm coming from is, uh, from research and other information, and also my own
experiences and anecdotal, those of others that I know. Uh, and this one, I'll go back to my being
Black, so I'm really talking about Black people but although- also other BIPOC people, they will
hesitate to [01:34:00] call and even for me personally, public safety is not the my first go-to or my
first thought to go to. And this is coming from, earlier on Amos had mentioned mental health. Uh, and
also, with my experience as the person right now who is coordinating, uh, in Eastern Iowa, Nisaa
African Family Services, an organization whose mission is to end violence in our African communities,
including in Iowa City. Uh, and mainly domestic violence. And the statistics are higher, and this is, uh,
global that [01:35:00] mostly it's women and girls who identify as women and girls, who really
domestic violence and sexual assault happens too. Uh, the people I serve who are African, uh, the
poli- the public safety, the police are not the first people. They're going to want to call. Or if I have a
family member who for they have an example, a psychotic breakdown, the family, especially if the
person happens to be male, the first person they're going to think of is not the police, because you-
you brought up information at Robert Lee, uh, of a situation where public safety comes in and the
situation even gets escalated. So there's always that fear that, okay, my husband is beating
[01:36:00] me, or my boyfriend or whomever, or my child, and, uh, from when children are three-
years-old, they are taught that public safety, it's really safety. So call them, but this is not the case
for- for us. The only- the only point I want to make is, we- we heard- I feel as if I've heard you ask for
this piece of data, and I want you to know we- we look to see whether we could identify calls for
service by race, meaning, can we identify the race of someone who called for police, and we cannot?
But it could feed into a public opinion survey in which you ask people, have you called or what was the
outcome when you called? Would you call in the future, and so forth? I- I don't think that there is data
collected. In [01:37:00] other words, when someone is calling 911 for police support or non-
emergency line, I don't think they collect the information on their race, but if you survey the
community, you might be able to get that information. I just didn't want you to think we were ignoring
that- that data because I think it's important data but I don't think it's being collected at this moment.
Actually really I was saying, not even, I just wanted to have this on record so that it doesn't get lost.
[01:37:34]
Absolutely.
[01:37:35]
Even if it doesn't happen right now, that's somewhere down the line, so that we can also in our
community, so that we can also be able to deal with eventually with people they're paying taxes, then
they're afraid that if they call for help, it might result in a death or more- or more escalation of the
very situation they were [01:38:00] trying to resolve and be safe from.
[01:38:03]
For sure- for sure. And please I'm sure you know this. We know each other but please know I'm in no
way, um, um, what's the word? Discounting the significance of knowing what it is that you want to
know. I just want to make sure that I'm transparent in saying, we tried, you know, to look for that. And
I'd like you to be able to get that information but it won't come from data that's already been
collected from what I can see.
[01:38:30]
If there's no other commissioner, um, comments, I'm going to open up to the public. If anyone would
like to step up to the microphone, if you have any questions. Otherwise, we're going to move on to
discussion with Dr. Schooler. It looks like no one has any-
[01:38:45]
There's- there's someone being held in the back whose opinion, I'd really like to know they're wearing
a hat. [LAUGHTER] I suspect that what they have to say would be very eloquent.
[01:38:56]
Um, V. Fixer-Oraiz. I just wanted to note that some of the data that [01:39:00] you're looking for, um,
maybe at the county medical, uh, examiner's office, especially when you were talking about the, um,
the deaths that were, um, unsolved and by minorities, I think that probably would be at the medical
examiner's office. So I just wanted to add that as one of your sources. I messaged Larry, but I also
wanted to tell you all that the Johnson County Medical Examiner's Office serves the Johnson County.
So that's where that data would come from I just wanted to note that.
[01:39:32]
Thank you. We can move on to discussion now.
[01:39:37]
Yes. Um, uh, I look like I have a teacher's pet who's already working on her- her homework
assignment that's on the screen.
[01:39:46]
Maybe.
[01:39:48]
Here's what I'm going to ask you to do, it's a little bit more writing, um, but the goal of this is to look
through the data that's in front of you, um, [01:40:00] and use the notepads to indicate I conclude X
based on the data that I have received. Now, again, this is very preliminary, you haven't heard truth-
you haven't heard testimony, you don't have all of the data that there is to be had, but what I'm going
to challenge you to do is at least think through what the data is telling you thus far, and perhaps
collectively, what you agree the data suggests, and then that can inform some of what you seek to
understand when people come and testify at truth-telling events or when you seek out others to
testify in other settings. So one conclusion per sticky, and we're going to use the front here to
assemble those. I'm going to step away for just a minute, um, but the goal is to get some of your
thoughts down on paper, and then we will discuss.
[01:41:00] [01:41:05]
Thank you for that break.
[01:41:07]
You're very welcome. Even facilitators need one from time to time. Um, I- I just want to underscore
that that's the role that I'm going to play here in the last little time we have left, um, is not to present
any more information, to really, um, shift the conversation to you all to talk as a group about what the
data are telling you, and what, if any conclusions, do you feel comfortable drawing at this moment,
but I know you all know this, I'm just going to say it, again, I'm not here to draw those conclusions for
you, I'm not trying to, uh, shirk responsibility, but it's my role to help you all do your work more easily,
not to- not to do it. Uh, and so I look forward to [01:42:00] facilitating this discussion and seeing
where we go. Uh, so the stickies were, I think, being utilized, so I'm going to-
[01:42:11]
Larry, before you continue-
[01:42:12]
Yes-
[01:42:12]
-I just want to thank you for presenting all the- all the findings in a very painless way. Thank you.
[01:42:23]
You are very welcome.
[01:42:25]
Even if they're painful.
[01:42:27]
Good Job, yeah.
[01:42:28]
[inaudible 01:42:28] I have a page.
[01:42:41]
Wait, this should be.
[01:43:00] [01:43:03]
[inaudible 01:43:03]
[01:43:10]
I like the use of the hereby, I feel fancy.
[01:43:14]
[inaudible 01:43:14] I went back, I found the sweet stuff fare [inaudible 01:43:27] I got it
[OVERLAPPING] Right now, I want to up.
[01:43:34]
So in facilitator school, they teach us about a gallery walk, which is where the participants go and look
at each other's comments. I'm going to be a little more efficient since it would be like all of us kind of
like leaning like this over it and do some reading, but just so, you know, I like a good gallery walk.
You're not getting the very best here, but I'll do the best I can. All right, I'm going to start over here.
[01:44:00] I conclude more sophisticated and detailed statistical analysis needs to be conducted to
understand what is behind the disparities. I conclude that Kim Reynolds needs to retire [LAUGHTER]
Since the name is common, I'm just assuming, for the record, you mean the governor of the State of
Iowa [LAUGHTER]
[01:44:30]
Poor Kim.
[01:44:31]
I conclude I'm just glad [inaudible 01:44:32] Laura Burgess name weren't on here. That would have
been disastrous. I conclude we need to understand what the distinction between discretionary and
non-discretionary means to rank and file officers. Police need oversight, not less, transparency is key,
in my conclusion, on the info given that we need more funding for mental health [01:45:00] and other
ways of bringing out the best in our city, I do not believe that less policies to oversee our officers is
the right way. There needs to be racial equity for Black and Africans while in relation to public safety
and the court system, including traffic stops, arrests, de-escalation, use of force, et cetera. Use of
violence in stops and arrests is disproportionate towards minorities, expert opinion on the impacts of,
I'm so sorry, my friend. On the impacts of-
[01:45:46]
On the impacts on health work and liberties.
[01:45:49]
On the impacts of health-
[01:45:50]
On.
[01:45:51]
On.
[01:45:52]
Yes.
[01:45:53]
Health, work, and liberties, ah, relation to, I see, no, I missed one, okay. [01:46:00] I conclude that
attempts to recruit a more diverse and inclusive police force are inadequate. I conclude there are
significant racial disparities in stops and arrests that need to be understood and addressed. Under-
representation of sworn officers who are Black or minority, diversity training is not including other
cultural aspects. Evidence of cultural training pertaining to immigrants is not clear or missing. Does
the race of officers matter? No good evidence. Locations of stops in predominantly minority
residential areas, spikes in crime are not there anymore, yet stops are high in neighborhoods,
including the Broadway area. I conclude the current Iowa City PD is trying to do the right thing.
[01:47:00] Lots of missing data related to police calls and race, who initiated the call by race, what
was the response, what is the race of the person being called on, what is the purpose of the call,
where is the incidence or the call? I hereby conclude, not just I conclude, but I hereby conclude that
discovered data thus far indicates that in the last two decades, Iowa City has made attempts to
correct any bias. These attempts appear positive on paper. However, anecdotal data shows many
holes, data, and viewpoints missing from the picture. We need much more community-based
generated data and more history to show how ice- Iowa City got here, we are missing a lot, even
though this is a lot of info. While trends are not up, disproportionate police stops and contacts still
exist. It is not at all clear, [01:48:00] without crime data being related to the city size, whether our
safety force resources are allocated efficiently. Crime rates decreased significantly according to the
data. Comparing stops and arrests with Iowa City's resident population, how many of them were from
here? Data does reveal that a dialogue is needed between ICPD and the community and discuss how
to better protect the community without endangering those who serve and residents, asking Kearns
and West about what data fact-finding questions are we not asking but should be based on your
experience in this field. Did I leave anybody out? I normally don't do this, but that deserves applause,
that was really impressive [APPLAUSE] You don't have to applaud, [01:49:00] I'm just saying it
deserves applause, but pat yourselves on the back, you did wonderful work there, all of you. What did
you hear?
[01:49:14]
Yes, there's some flaws in our system that we need to really address before it gets worse
unaddressed.
[01:49:29]
I think it was- I'm not trying to call you out, but I think you- you were focused on oversight, what- what
is it that you most want to see overseen? I mean, in other words, we don't know what's going to come
of the state law that might do away with the civilian oversight board, but regardless of what the
vehicle is, what oversight do you want to see provided?
[01:49:57]
It goes back to me with mental health awareness. Uh, [01:50:00] I feel like, uh, I believe there's other
cities right now that have, uh, groups that come out either with the police officers or something else
along those lines, I feel like that's extremely helpful because a lot of these situations can totally be,
ah, uh, de-escalated without the anxiety of dealing with an officer. A lot of these- a lot of these
situations can be misunderstandings or just things in general that if you would approach it in a
different light, you wouldn't have as many arrests, you would have somebody who's actually educated
in de-escalating situations specifically, rather than just, okay, well, you- you did this, and I'm just
going to take you in. Uh, I- I feel like, the less oversight we have is the exact wrong direction.
Oversight shouldn't be a threat, and transparency shouldn't be a threat. If it is, that says a lot about
whatever [01:51:00] system that we have that's going on. And, uh, for us to focus a little bit more on
support for our police, but support in a way that helps our community, I think that would be the most
ideal.
[01:51:17]
[OVERLAPPING] I'm sorry.
[01:51:19]
I didn't say that, I'm sure if you were to ask the police chief here, wherever, and we asked about the
calls that are made. I mean, so many of the new 911 calls, the police are the last ones that are really
should be the one to go to it, but there are no resources available to send someone or whatever else,
or it'd be nice if they had, you know, a group that could, you know, accompany if it- it was sounding
like, oh, this is a mental health issue, did it like that. I mean, I know that there had been discussions
of the police having certain training or if- [01:52:00] or if they already have it from other jobs, you
know, being able to utilize it, you know, in the position here, having some additional, um, some
mental health kind of training, you know, so they can recognize situations, but again, it goes down to,
you know, money for the training, [LAUGHTER] you know, that kind of stuff, and it needs to happen,
does.
[01:52:23]
Money for the training, they- they, you know, if we keep watching every year, they get more and more
money, it sounds like they got it. And if they don't, uh, a proportion of that can go in that direction, I
don't see a reason why not, and especially if it makes their job safer and easier. If you have somebody
that can just completely de-escalate the situation without them even getting involved, they're the
backup, they should be the last line of defense, not the very first and the majority of these situations.
So, yeah, if we can get somebody else that is, uh, [01:53:00] maybe an officer that is completely
trained only in trying to nullify whatever problem that's out there before anybody needs to be
arrested in, the- the goal is to bring down that arrest rate, more than anything else, just try to chip it
away.
[01:53:16]
Just for whoever might be taking notes. Um, so we do have a co-response currently, we have a trained
mental health professional from community crisis services, um, who can go with our officers, but this
idea that they be- that those mental health professionals be the first line of response is being
implemented in our community. It's very new, and we're having problems at the dispatch level,
actually getting the dispatchers to, um, you know, send those calls to the crisis counselors rather than
to other kinds of responders, but this is something that counsel's going to be talking about over the
next few months as well. So she'll make sure this information, now I'm looking at city staff, it's that
we can circle back and get all the information back to you all so that you [01:54:00] have that as
you're looking at recommendations.
[01:54:02]
Lauren, can you tell us why dispatch is having issues?
[01:54:05]
Um, I think it's a cultural thing. So I serve on the board for the Joint Emergency Communications
Center that is the county-wide dispatch for all the agencies, and I think it's just a very different
mindset to have someone who's calling, who's in crisis to hand them off to a counselor who, you
know, 97 plus percent of the time that resolves on the telephone. They don't have to send someone
out, but a dispatcher is like, I will get you a person to address the situation immediately. So I just
think, you know, the- the training is happening, the training has happened, but there's just more that
needs to go on.
[01:54:37]
How's the funding for that, if-
[01:54:39]
Well, I have asked for us to fund a crisis counselor to be in the dispatch center. So talk to my
colleagues about that if you want that to happen. [LAUGHTER] Yes, that would be what [inaudible
01:54:50]
[01:54:52]
Councilor, can I add help because these are the ones that are going to go there immediately, the
others might die in the [01:55:00] papers, but I know if you hear it. On the dispatches, and the people
who receive these calls, I think we need diversity, and when I talk about diversity, you've touched
about it, it's not just race.
[01:55:14]
Right.
[01:55:14]
Cultural diversity, yes, yeah. So there could be issues that sometimes can be worked out like
Commissioner Cliff says, within the community, maybe somebody has wisdom in the community,
some societies communities have that essence of there are people you can talk to first in the
community about these disputes before you go to the other person. So that element requires some
level of education.
[01:55:40]
Yes.
[01:55:40]
Yeah. And because in our communities here, I commit to tell you the truth, I look at a lot of data. And
just among we the Blacks, 60% of the Blacks are those in Iowa City right now, not- I'm sorry, in
Johnson County.
[01:55:58]
Okay.
[01:56:00]
Are those who are born here, either recently or over generations,60% of the Blacks. The rest, 40% are
immigrants black from Africa, 39.6 to be accurate. To tell you the truth, so the culture of Iowa City is
changing-
[01:56:19]
Yes.
[01:56:19]
And I know I might be touching on an area that other people are not very comfortable with, but we
will have to live with this here because it's a good place, and those cultures are in here. Different
cultures are in here, we just have to learn, and the organizations or agencies will have to adapt at
very quickly. Yeah, and they're willing to learn, we always learn, there are people from other cultures.
When we come here, we- we agree to land and adapt here, we are not that resistant, yeah.
[01:56:52]
Thank you.
[01:56:54]
I have a quick question about your department. [01:57:00] Are you guys- how many people are in
your department, if you don't mind me asking, for- yes?
[01:57:08]
If you could come up on a mic, it'd be great. Thank you.
[01:57:13]
Our mobile crisis team probably has about 30 folks that are in our main responder team, and then
there are four co responders with different jurisdictions, yeah and I'm happy to answer any other.
[01:57:24]
Are we able to well- with the proper funding and everything, are we- do you feel like you guys have
enough, or do you feel like you need for the amount of people we have here in the city and the
diversity that we have, do you have the proper staff to take care of everybody?
[01:57:45]
Yeah, we need more sustainable funding to allow us to provide benefited positions to really well
trained crisis counselors, retain that institutional knowledge, increase quality of service, make it a job.
People want to stay in for a long time. I think, [01:58:00] also we are meeting our call volume right
now, but as Laura was sharing, there are challenges at the dispatch level. If we were responding to
every call for service that had a mental health component, we would need many more counselors and
we would need a lot more money to pay them equitably and to retain them to do the job well.
[01:58:24]
Do you think it would be helpful to have this as- as, uh, to have the same type of- I'm military. When I
come from military, I'm thinking, all right well, when it comes down to the Marines, everybody's a
rifleman. Get me? When it comes down to your department, would it be helpful for you guys to go to
the same type of training as the police officers do or do you?
[01:58:53]
Um so, our co-responders go through different, um kind of scene safety training. They [01:59:00] have
radio training, they have vests. Our crisis counselors go through a different training. It also involves
situational awareness and scene safety. Um, I would say, you know, we could probably be better
educated in scene safety in order to kind of reach the skill level that we would be able to respond to
things like a welfare check. I would say that it could also go the other direction, you know, we have
things to learn from each other. Um, but I wouldn't -what I wouldn't want is for us to replicate the
service that police are providing. We have a whole another set of skills and another way of
approaching things that doesn't involve scene clearing, but involves really taking our time with
people, letting them narrativize their own crisis and spending as much time as we need with them to
meet their needs.
[01:59:46]
I definitely understand that. The only- the only reason why I brought that up was, I feel like when you
guys are more comfortable to go into any situation, uh, [02:00:00] because you are more focused on
negotiating things. I think a bit like a hostage negotiator. They have the police that are all there.
Hostage negotiator goes in to make sure that they escalate the situation and turn it into something
better, without a fight. Well, I was thinking maybe if you guys had the- if you were going to the same
training or along the same lines as the same train as the officers, then that gives you a different
perspective on what they're looking at. What you might be dealing with and, in general, just make it
less likely to have them involved.
[02:00:34]
Yeah absolutely. I do and I would love for our mobile crisis team to have additional training to respond
to things like public disturbance or trespassing calls or welfare checks, where you know, social
workers are already going into those environments, you know, every day, separate from the dispatch
system and interacting with people and very rarely incurring harm to themselves because most
people in mental health crisis are not going to perpetrate harm. [02:01:00] But I know the public has
concerns about, kind of unarmed people entering those spaces, and so to me, that training would kind
of prepare us to message exactly about what we're doing and how consistently we're going to do it,
and that we're really well prepared to do it, because I think in my view and my vision, the kinds of
calls we could respond to would be broadened and would you know- things could fall to us that we're
falling to PD.
[02:01:26]
The goal is to make it more attractive. The more attractive to bring more people that want to join in,
the less likely we have to go to drastic measures, if you will. That's all.
[02:01:35]
I will- I will also share that our counseling team, not necessarily- the correspondens often, but also our
own counseling team has been called in often by law enforcement to help escalate, because we had a
skill set, and we had rapport with a person that wasn't available to them in that moment, or we had a
different approach and have had successful kind of interactions where I believe there was a reduction
in the harm that may have occurred to any [02:02:00] number of people on scene and if our crisis
counselors hadn't come and provided what we do, which is very different. That's already happening is
my point that sometimes.
[02:02:09]
On a rough estimate, what would you say, rough estimate, of course, in a scale of one to 100, your
percentage of the escalating situations have been?
[02:02:20]
Yeah. So like how often are we successful in, kind of, well, maybe you can share more like-
[02:02:28]
What I mean by that is rather than a situation go to the extreme, what's the likelihood you guys are to
get somebody to just go in. We're just just walk away.
[02:02:42]
It's hard to predict what the outcome of a situation would have been, but I can tell you that our
diversion rate from both jail and hospitalization is in the '90s consistently mid '90s. The remainder of
those calls, um, are, uh, someone deciding [02:03:00] voluntarily to seek a higher level of care. So,
um, kind of, meeting with- meeting with counsels and determining in order to stay safe, I need to go
somewhere else. We have had no crisis call ever result in an arrest, um, coming through our
channels. Like there's some times when we are not, uh, no longer [LAUGHTER] kind of dictating what
happens on scene, but no crisis call that we've ever- ever had has resulted in an arrest of that
individual and we have very very very few calls where we involuntarily call for backup of some kind
from another first responder service. And so mobile crisis works very well. I've worked a little across
the continuum of care. Um, people like it. People kind of, we see its efficacy and kind of helping
people stabilize and be able to stay safe for now in the moment. I'm in this from a career in therapy
because I can see the power of this intervention [02:04:00] relative to other interventions in the
continuum of care, so.
[02:04:04]
Do you find that it might be possibly helpful if there's an officer, and then there's, uh instead of like
their partner. There's you or one of your?
[02:04:16]
Yep, so there's different versions of that. There's the version where the coresponder goes who is
embedded in the police department and has, um, kind of, partner like rapport with the officers. They
work together frequently. Again, they have additional safety things. And then there's a version where
they call for us to come attend to the scene. Very often, and ideally for us. Like if the scene is
deemed safe, they can hand it off to us and no longer be present on scene at all, um-.
[02:04:47]
And I'm getting to.
[02:04:48]
Yeah, absolutely. That's the goal in any- in any case where it's possible for it to completely dissolve
the law enforcement component. Like we would love to do that [02:05:00] and that happens a lot,
actually.
[02:05:02]
What I was thinking is yeah, if you're- if you're with him, and instead of the officer getting out and
handling it first one, do you guys go and handle it? You just let the officer know if they are even
needed, really?
[02:05:15]
Yeah, absolutely and often, they can see that they're not needed, in fact. Um, and you know, there
are other communities I will share around the country that have mobile crisis responders answering
these higher accuity calls for service unarmed and doing really really wonderful work, and it's working
for those communities.
[02:05:34]
Good to go. Thank you.
[02:05:36]
Anyone else that has questions anywhere along the way? Yeah, go ahead.
[02:05:42]
Okay. I just wanted to follow up. Something that Laura had mentioned that can you give me a sense
like, what is the decision tree like for the dispatcher? So a call comes in. What is- what did they have
to do to decide how to sort who's going where?
[02:06:00]
So our dispatcher right now is not the 911 dispatcher. That's a future goal where the calls would be
transferred to us directly off 911. We have a separate dispatch line. Um, the person on that dispatch
line is asking safety questions about animals in the house, weapons in the house. And then questions
about that person's, um, ideation around suicide risk or harm towards other people and they have
sort of empirically validated questions that they ask, you know this Columbia screening, all kind of you
know, ways that they get at asking those questions. I would say the main safety one of the biggest
safety protocols we have there is that people are self referring. We're right now in our non co
responder program. We're a totally voluntary service. So you know someone tells us, please go away
from us now, we will do that [LAUGHTER]
[02:06:52]
That provides a lot of safety in its own in its own.
[02:06:56]
If someone had plan means time frame, an intent [02:07:00] to harm themselves or someone else,
the dispatcher would deter and weren't willing to work on safety. They weren't going to try to work on
safety, or they'd already done something to harm themselves, like ingested with an intent to die. The
dispatcher would determine that that wasn't a safe mobile crisis call, um and would probably call for
paramedics in that case.
[02:07:19]
Commissioner MOC and on the same subject. Just if at all, that doesn't exist, and smarter data
systems, cause' you just have learned how we run into problems because we don't have data.
[02:07:34]
Yeah.
[02:07:34]
You can't explain a lot of things. So we don't want to hear next time that oh, we are not collecting
data on race. We are not collecting data on this and this and this. So I think it's good you are here.
You are hearing this very well.
[02:07:48]
Yeah, yeah and we are collecting data on race on- on gender expression, on sexuality, and on
disability status, and, um, are [02:08:00] finding that folks- all of those groups are disproportionately
represented in our call volume.
[02:08:06]
Work hard to make those be published for the community. Yes see we didn't get it here, yet it's an
impact study thing that really helps us a lot.
[02:08:16]
No, I wasn't here in this capacity, but questions were asked, so I'm really glad and happy to come
speak to any of you about our work and answer questions and also hear your input into our work and
how we can better serve you all, so thank you.
[02:08:29]
I appreciate you, thank you.
[02:08:30]
Before you leave. Um, I'm curious with your language line whether you go beyond, since your services
are 24/7 whether the language line is also on after 5:00 or all the time.
[02:08:46]
Language line is available, 24/7. We have languages, and we have, um, voice the text so we can work
with folks who are in the deaf community as well. We also have, um, kind of contracted folks, where if
there's [02:09:00] a scheduled dispatch, we can provide a scheduled Spanish dispatch to someone
live in person, not using the language line.
[02:09:08]
Good to hear because some of the start Dr. Scola was presenting with the police, some of it escalates
because of language barriers and cultural barriers.
[02:09:22]
Absolutely.
[02:09:23]
And lack of information on- on how to interact with the sadly, the responsibility in some of the
minority cases seems to be on the- on the person that's being interacted with.
[02:09:40]
Absolutely yeah.
[02:09:41]
Thank you.
[02:09:42]
And I dream in the future would be able to provide live crisis care, um, in multiple languages around
the clock that.
[02:09:51]
Especially that reflects also proportionally to how Iowa City right [02:10:00] now looks like. Especially
Swahili, French, Arabic and also, uh, users of Spanish has- that has also increased.
[02:10:14]
Yeah, that would be a dream, a vision for the future for us as well. Thank you.
[02:10:22]
I'm a believer get to the source, and I feel like that they are one of the best bets to get to the source
and kind of solve a lot of our issues all rolled up in one. That's what I personally believe, so.
[02:10:35]
Even sounds like they should just do a whole presentation to the TRC. Thank you for- for what you've
done in answering our questions. Thank you.
[02:10:47]
If you like to say-
[02:10:47]
If you are community, remember, come on.
[02:10:52]
You'd like to come to the and see your name of the-
[02:10:55]
I'm a recent resident here. Cynthia Deits. I spent 10.5 years [02:11:00] in Winnipeg and, uh, actually,
I emailed Marie Sinclair, you know, the head of the Canadian TRC at one point, who is a retired lawyer
but I want to tell you the experience I had in Winnipeg, which addresses, what can you do to help
before you call police? What happened there is they had something called Meet Me at the Bell Tower.
This was held every Friday at a neighborhood center, and people who were in need came and they
talked to some of the youth leaders, and then a lot of counselors came and they talked and heard the
concerns. Then there was something called the Bar clan. The Bar clan was a group, maybe 20-30
people who would just walk the neighborhoods, and anybody who wanted to talk to the people in the
Bar clan would talk. Many of them were indigenous. Winnipeg is 20% indigenous and 40% immigrants.
So [02:12:00] um, they did a lot of reconciliation right there. They didn't have to pay anybody. The
police department didn't- the- the police were way way in the outskirts. So I think it resolved a lot of
issues. I mean there were issues about kids being stopped by police on biking for riding a bike on a
busy street. I mean, so I just, If you want the phone number or email of Marie Sinclair, I can give it
you, or maybe I'll get more information of people who head up the Bear Klan. Then I can give you the
neighborhood leaders.
[02:12:39]
Absolutely.
[02:12:40]
But I need your contact information too.
[02:12:42]
Absolutely. Thank you.
[02:12:44]
Thank you so much.
[02:12:46]
Stefanie, what is our email again? Sorry.
[02:12:50]
Cynthia.
[02:12:51]
She's going to give- she can give you the [LAUGHTER].
[02:12:56]
Um, I am stand at the microphone because we had a malfunction with [02:13:00] the wireless, but I- I
feel as if we're actually close to a place of conclusion and the reason I say that is while I was listening,
I was trying to clump some of the conclusions that related to each other together and so let me share
with you some of the clumping that I did. Um, that's a technical term.
[02:13:26]
Totally.
[02:13:27]
So, uh, there was, um, a few that related to essentially missing data. So essentially the conclusion is
we are missing data that would help us to better understand the way in which police protect our
communities would be one potential conclusion. Um, there were a couple that reflected, uh, a
conclusion that the Iowa City PD [02:14:00] is making concerted efforts to improve their policing of all
communities and to reduce bias. Um, there was a- a desire to see more- more detailed information, so
same, sort of in the same bucket as, um missing data tha- that's needed. Then there was a set that
dealt with the disproportionality, both in terms of stops, in terms of locations, in terms of stops and
arrests, and in terms of equity. Then there was a category that referred to, uh, both the diversity of
the police force being inadequate, as well as diversity training, perhaps being inadequate.
[02:15:00]
There were a few that were hard for me to categorize a group with each other. There was the one
that referred to a need for, um, greater funding of health, mixed with one on health impacts, and one
that asked for more of a distinction on discretionary, and non-discretionary stops. And then there's the
call for Kim Reynolds to resign. [LAUGHTER] Not able to put that in any category. Yes.
[02:15:32]
It stands alone. What- what I would submit to you though in all sincerity, is it seems like the- there
aren't any conclusions here that are in tension one with the other. It's not like one of you is concluding
one thing and the other is concluding the exact opposite. So it feels to me like this could be a good
place to, sort of, put a period or a semicolon and then move into truth telling Wednesday and
Thursday. In other words, you [02:16:00] have concluded I think, and again, this is a- this is like a test
to you all to see if this- if this sounds right. But you've concluded that you need more information to
better understand the true performance of law enforcement. You've concluded that there are
unacceptable levels of discrepancy between people of different races that need to be corrected or at
least better understood. You've identified a need for more of an effort to diversify the force, the actual
police force. Ah you have, um, gotten at the intersection between public safety and health,
particularly mental health, and a desire to see, um, more be invested in the health impacts associated
with police activity. Um, so I mean, those to me, feel like [02:17:00] things that everybody here in one
form or another has said, and- and could support. But I don't want to put words in your mouth and I
don't want you to feel coerced. I want you to feel like what I'm saying satisfies you in terms of a good
place to be at this phase of your work. Again, truth telling is key here. You have to hear testimony to
really understand the full complexity of this issue. But If I felt like there were things that needed to be
reconciled, I would take you in that direction. But there really aren't. I mean, there's nothing in these
suggestions or these conclusions that isn't in my opinion pretty well aligned. So I guess my question
to you is, as you heard me summarize and, sort of, put those categories of conclusions, the missing
data, the, um, unacceptably high amount of disparity, the need for greater diversification in the force
and diversity training, the desire to deal with health. [02:18:00] Um, is there anything in those
conclusions that you're not comfortable with as a preliminary?
[02:18:12]
I'm comfortable.
[02:18:13]
Seems like we're all comfortable.
[02:18:16]
I- I really think that's a good place to be, um, because I don't want you to go a whole lot farther
without hearing people tell you their lived experience. But I also think that this is a good place to be in
terms of telling the city council that you've looked at the data and have some, you know, particular
feelings about it. So we can- KW can put some language around this that we would show you before it
becomes final to, sort of, make sure we're articulating it in a way that feels accurate and something
you could support. But hopefully, the way I've just described it conceptually is enough for you to feel
like- that- that reflects my point of view. I'm [02:19:00] comfortable with that being what the TRC has
to say at this point.
[02:19:05]
As you presented the categories of the conclusions, uh, and the presentation from the Community
Crisis Center, you've made me remember that especially when you bring up, uh, safety and mental
health, yes, we are doing well especially with the strengthening of the Community Crisis Center. Ah at
the same time, I've also thought of the non-profits that- that also, uh, help with the safety in our
communities. And I've just thought of the organization that I- the Iowa City office for Eastern Iowa.
And [02:20:00] I've thought that, uh, steal along ratio and cultural grouping lines, uh, for some, the
funding you really have to go for it or even health equity and mental health, uh, equity along ratio,
and cultural grouping lines. Those groups have to really advocate and fight for that. Yet others it's
already seen it's - the majority culture. Uh, it's offered. But for the others, you have really to go after
funding and I've known many that again and again, it's a- it stand down. Sometimes the reasoning is
you're new. So it goes again. And sometimes the funding even goes to the very people who are even
[02:21:00] causing the unsafety. Yeah, and maintaining that safety. So yeah, that's what- those are
the lots that have come out of me from the categorization.
[02:21:10]
There's probably data that could be had about public funding that could be helpful to you. In other
words, tracking the, kinds of, organizations that have received funding from the state, from the- from
the federal government, from local and county sources. I don't know as much about how we could
track, uh, private philanthropy, because that's a little less obvious. But I think the public funding could
probably be relatively easy to- it do take a long time, but it would be findable.
[02:21:40]
Yeah, or sometimes asking, er, for example, the organization I run. Where does your- you are - it's one
that the mission is eradication of vio- violence in our communities including Iowa City. So where does
our funding come from? State? So, but we don't have any right now from Iowa City. But I really
[02:22:00] appreciate us being allowed to have an office in Iowa City.
[02:22:05]
Absolutely.
[02:22:06]
Yeah.
[02:22:08]
I wanted to just add, like, uh, I think as you said, we all can agree that as of right now, the data that
you've gathered. Although it's not exhaustive, it's the more formal data, um, that has led to this
conclusion, um, that I mean, we need more data. But I think then- then what we need is which is I
think, is very big and glaring is we need the community data. And I think, um, not talking to you,
Larry, talking to us. As commissioners, it's our turn now to start going after that data, whether, um,
hopefully in these next couple of days, we can, um, get other people on board as we listen to their
truth so that we can create a committee, um, of people that can help us find those- that information,
like the opinion surveys that you were talking about, Amos. So, um, the- the information [02:23:00]
that people aren't going to find in the- our traditional systems. So I think that is where we as the
commission really need to move forward next so that we can make sure that those holes are- are
filled a little bit better. We might have to create some wheels to get there. But all in all, I want to
thank you for bringing and- and compiling everything you and Laurel together, um, because it is- it's
helpful for us to see this- this guide. But we- we have so much more work to do if we're going to
continue on this path is what I'm- I'm seeing.
[02:23:38]
I certainly agree, and, you know, I'd be remiss if I didn't say, um, how meaningful it is to have been
able to walk with you this far. And if there are opportunities to walk with you further, we- we'd
welcome that. And, um, you're doing the work that needs to be done. So I salute you for that.
[02:23:58]
Thank you. And I also want to point [02:24:00] out like you said, um, Commissioner Gathua, that we
do have, um, our connections to the community, the non-profits, the lists that we made in the last two
years that we need to reach out to, um, especially when community being here, thanks for the
reminder. Um, there's lots of different, um, areas for us to jump into. So this is a great stepping stone.
[02:24:25]
Well, I would never be able to say my work here is done because it isn't. But, um, I do think it's
probably the right time for me to- to step back and to say, um, thank you in absentia to Laurel for all
of her support to get us here.
[02:24:43]
Or she- are they on Zoom?
[02:24:45]
They have been, but the audio's been a little tough, so I will relay to her
[02:24:53]
the thanks, but obviously, um, as I said the other night, um, there are a lot of thanks to go around,
but the most important [02:25:00] one is to all of you, even that fella over there. And to
Commissioner Nobis, who's not physically here and Commissioner Krebs, who had to step down. Um,
it's just hard for me to articulate to you how much of an honor it is to be a part of something like this.
So, um, I will still along with Laurel, work over the next couple of weeks to leave this better than we
found it in terms of giving you all a leg up on the rest of the work that you have. Uh, but this has been
such an incredible ride for us. And so I thank you for allowing us to ride with you through all of this.
[02:25:44]
Thank you, Larry.
[02:25:45]
Thank you.
[02:25:46]
Thanks.
[02:25:48]
So Commissioners, do you have any other things we want to discuss or reflect on?
[02:25:53]
Yes. Uh, Larry even though I've only been here for a month, maybe [02:26:00] less than a month in
duty here, I would say that I've really really appreciated your work. Occasionally, I poked you. But I
want you to remember that these were not intended to you personally. They were just intended to
make our community be better. Yeah, that is what I'm always after. And- and I've learned a lot from
you and the other facilitators. And these questions that we raised come because you give us a hint.
You always give us a hint, and then we look forward. If you are not giving us these hints, I don't know
that why is this happening with this, because we are not experts in criminology. This is not my field. I
don't know if it is your field, or you failed. There's none of us know, he's an expert in criminology, and
police relations as such. So we are laymen, treatment. But the way you poked us with the data, you
made us better. And then in relation to that, I want to talk about, um, what's difficult to talk about is
just the community we live in, and- and then [02:27:00] the police department. Having lived here for
over 34 years, getting to 35, I've seen a lot of improvements, and others might have not seen that. So
yesterday night when I didn't sleep very well, I was trying to look at what does that data say
regarding my opinion over those 30 years living here from a student who came from Africa. And I feel
very positive about my community alive, I like it. I wouldn't want all my children to get away from
here. I want some of them to live around so that I can- they can come and visit me when I want here
because it's a good place. And then on the community, we would just want us to get some opinion
about them. Opinion I go back to what Commissioner Chair says about frequent surveys on what does
the community think. Yeah. Yeah. So sometimes not very good, but it's good to know that. Yeah. And
[02:28:00] I think on the police department, having gone through the records, I was reading- reading
a lot of memorandum from the community members, from researchers and other people,
communications. Yeah. I- I could just have a glimpse, and this is something that you not- nobody is
going to tell you unless you look at read those letters. Their interactions with researchers with the
community. I feel very positive that we are in a very good place, and they're willing. They're really
willing and sometimes they go- they go out of their way. I mean, the- the commiss- the chiefs. I don't
know about the other forces, but I think they're supported by the other people. They go their way, and
they're very supportive and always working to help make our communities very good. Yeah. That was
my opinion. It might be different. And I would want to express that. I don't know how it can come into
the document that we're going to say, but, er, and it is about truth. You can't [02:29:00] be- I can't be
here to say I'm talking about truth when I'm hiding some aspects, and I go over back home with it in
my pocket. Yeah. Where- where some people are doing a good job, we have to say that. And where
the limitations just like any human being has a limitation, we will say that I hope they're not going to
be mad at it, I think it's for their good. And I saw that signal to me through their communications with
the other departments and other things. But thank you very much, Larry.
[02:29:28]
I would like to also say thank you for all your hard work and effort. It's been extremely helpful. This is
very digestable, easy to digest and, uh, and thank you for everything. That's honest true from mine.
Thank you.
[02:29:44]
Okay, well, I want to- I want to say again, thank you. We're going to still hear from you in the next
couple of weeks, but I appreciate you coming down and giving us this information to the public. I want
to open it up to any other public comments, if anyone wanted to say anything that they heard or
[02:30:00] would like to just, you know, give public comment, please come to the front. If not, um, I'm
going to go ahead and say, you know, this Wednesday and Thursday is are true telling event. We
hope that you all will join us. Wednesday is going to be at iCore Boxing. Thank you again, Cliff. And
Thursday is going to be at the James Theater. Uh, I would say to my fellow commissioners, as you can
see we have people here, but we need more people than this on Wednesday and Thursday. So I
challenge all of us to bring at least 2-5 people of our own if you haven't already invited people so that
we can fill the seats. Because, you know, the truths matter, but they'll matter more when the
community hears it. So, um, I don't know if there's anything else that anyone- commissioners would
like to say.
[02:30:48]
Larry, when I heard you say- mention the word end, I don't do very well with ending, terminations,
goodbyes. So [02:31:00] I will use a word that somebody told me I can substitute with. Uh, we are
graduating to the next level. And as you end, as I said, I got your memo, and you're saying you're not
a fashionista or you can claim you are. Now you are in the house of fashion. Yeah, so. I got the memo,
so I twinned with you as you go. Yeah, thank you. But ah, yeah, I'm not good. I don't. Yeah. So we are
graduating to the next level, and I'll stop rambling. Thank you. And it has been a joy of working with
you. Like I said, ah, for me, you've made, ah, painful topic, uh, painless especially the part of
presenting the information. You've presented it in a way I am able to digest and make use [02:32:00]
of as we continue making migrate city even greater. Thank you.
[02:32:07]
Thank you again. If there's no other further comments, I'm going to move to adjourn.
[02:32:13]
Second.
[02:32:14]
Thank you.