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HomeMy WebLinkAbout2009-09-10 TranscriptionSeptember 10, 2009 City Council Page 1 September 10, 2009 City Council Special Work Session 5:30 P.M. Council Present: Bailey, Champion, Correia, Hayek, O'Donnell, Wilburn, Wright Staff: Helling, Karr, Dilkes, Hargadine, Bollinger Others Present: Shipley - UISG Representative (arrived at 6:35 P.M.) Curfew & Delinquent Behavioral Ordinance: Bailey/ All right, I think we'll get started. We have one item on our agenda tonight -the curfew and delinquent behavior, um, discussion, and I guess I'll just start out with...Eleanor, if you'd like to overview your memo, or have any opening comments to make (mumbled). Yeah, I was going to ask...Eleanor, do you want to come down, and Chief, do you want to come up to the table cause I'm actually sure we'll want to talk to you. Or talk with you. (mumbled) I think you were fine. (laughter) I think there's room. (noises on mic) Dilkes/ Um, I think I'll just cover this pretty briefly and you all can just ask whatever questions you have. Um, you had asked that I look at a curfew ordinance and a, um, delinquent behavioral ordinance. Um, and I think that was, um, based on the Police Chiefs interest in looking at behavior, as opposed to kind of status offenses. Um, the...I tried to give you an overview of the juvenile justice system, because...primarily the juvenile justice system in Iowa is a function of State law, not municipal law, and we have very little, um, power to...alter or change that system, or to effect that system. Um, in Iowa there are basically two types of proceedings under the juvenile justice act. One is a child in need of assistance proceeding, which is a, um, proceeding in which a child is identified to be in need of assistance because of neglect or abuse by the child's caretakers. There are 18 reasons in the State code why a child could be in need of assistance, and that's...that is all laid out in the code, how...how that proceeds. It would include a young child, um, who was out without supervision, um...the other type of proceeding is a delinquency proceeding. When the juvenile courts, which includes the juvenile court office, the probation officers, and the juvenile court...court, uh, take jurisdiction over a child who has committed a crime. Uh, in Iowa, delinquent behavior is generally defined as the commission of a crime by a juvenile. Um, if you...as you see in the memo, I...I noted that other...other states have different systems. Missouri for instance, you can see, um, defines, I mean...defines delinquent behavior much more broadly, um, than just the commission of a crime. Um, so we do not have the ability to change the definition of delinquent act as that's set forth in the State code. So, I...I don't think that we can do a delinquent behavior ordinance in the way that it was envisioned. Um, and then essentially what my memo does is it goes through the behaviors that have been identified, both by the Police Department and by the Neighborhood Services' Coordinator, and I...I think that was in consultation with neighbors, the problem behaviors that are being identified by...by the neighborhood. Um, and I don't want to go through all of those, again, unless you have specific questions, but my conclusion was in looking at each of This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council special work session meeting of September 10, 2009. September 10, 2009 City Council Page 2 those behaviors, and looking at the existing laws on the books, that the only two behaviors that were not, uh, specifically addressed by existing laws were, um, children being out after a certain hour without adult supervision. That's a curfew ordinance. Um, and I think you...can do a curfew ordinance, and I gave you a...a draft of one for your use in deciding, um, that. And then the second one is a loitering in large groups or loitering on private property ordinance, or loitering in large groups ordinance. Generally in terms of big groups loitering on private property, that's going to be a trespass charge if there's interest on the part of the private property owner. When it comes to the streets, while we do have some, um, some laws that might address certain types of behavior, we don't, as Des Moines does, have a loitering provision that, um, prohibits people just from obstructing....it's obstructive behavior, it's conduct that can be obstructing. It doesn't have to be...there doesn't have to be any intent to obstruct, uh, it doesn't have to be walking on one side of the road or the other. It's simply, uh, being in, for instance, the middle of the street, where you really shouldn't be hanging out because that's where the cars need to go. Um, so my...my recommendations were that in the event that you want to address those two behaviors, you would pass a curfew ordinance. If you wanted a time when, uh, juveniles had to be, um, off the public...off the streets and out of public places, um, and you would do a loitering office if you wanted, or loitering ordinance if you wanted to more specifically address the congregation of groups of people, um, in obstruction...obstructing astreet or a passageway, and the loitering ordinance does not just apply to juveniles. Um... Bailey/ Questions for Eleanor? Wilburn/ I think most of my questions are going to be implementation, logistical questions that would be of the Chief, but there are a couple questions I think that are more, uh, legal type, and just so I'm understanding what you're suggesting. Um...part of the ordinance is the definition of, um, minor and unemancipated...emancipated, but I didn't actually see in the regulation where you...and maybe I just missed it reading through it, is it under this draft of a curfew ordinance, would it be that emancipated youth in Iowa would not be subject to the curfew law, or does that even...does that even matter? Dilkes/ Yes. Wilburn/ They would be...exempt. Dilkes/ They... yes. Wilburn/ Okay. And, uh, then it would be, uh, part of the logistical question, but I'll get to the Chief when it comes to the Chiefs time, would be, um, what are the steps if a young person that happens to be emancipated is detained for them to, the officer to gather that information and to prove, so that they could let that young person go, or not, um.. . Dilkes/ I need to find...I need to find that provision. I'll... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council special work session meeting of September 10, 2009. September 10, 2009 City Council Page 3 Wilburn/ Okay. Cause I was (both talking) I was looking there and I didn't see it, but L ..I was...going that...the presumption that it was. Dilkes/ Well, there is a provision about how, um, a police officer, if you look at the enforcement provisions, determines age. Wilburn/ Right, I saw that, but it doesn't talk...address an emancipated youth would be a minor, uh, chronically a minor, but would have the rights of a... Dilkes/ I think what would likely happen is if somebody was, I mean, you can correct me if I'm wrong, Chief, but if there was an emancipated minor, um, or if...if a child or a person was insisting that they were emancipated minor, I...I would suspect that there would be a citation, um, and a release, absent other behavior that was troubling, and that would be a defense that they would raise. Wilburn/ Right. Dilkes/ In court. Wilburn/ Right, um, and that's an example of the logistical question, but there are other time, the amount of time or what's done (mumbled) I'll get to you later on that, and question ...question the Chie£ Another one is, um...in the...you answered the one about the process in Iowa about determining whether they're emancipated or not, and that would be cleared up later. Um...on...Section 1, Amendments of the Curfew Ordinance, um...under C, Exceptions, um...one of the exemptions was a minor on an emergency errand for a responsible adult. And I saw the definition of emergency, but um, just a question, in cities that you looked at...are there other exceptions for ahealth-related, non- emergency that would be an exemption, for example, an adult, um...um, has, um, some type of ailment that's not an emergency, but an over-the-counter medication and sending their child to a grocery store or pharmacy to get something. Did you see examples of that for a...an exemption for ahealth-related, non-emergency... Dilkes/ No, but there's certainly no reason you couldn't include one. Wilburn/ Okay, all right. Um...I think the rest of mine are more implication, logistical type questions, so I'll stop so others can ask any legal questions. Bailey/ Any other questions for Eleanor, specifically? Hayek/ Yeah, and mine has to do with, um (both talking) O'Donnell/ Go ahead. Hayek/ Um...the, the standing/loitering, or obstructing. I'd be happy to ask that now, unless people just want to stay on the curfew. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council special work session meeting of September 10, 2009. September 10, 2009 City Council Page 4 Bailey/ I think that's fine. Hayek/ Um...under, uh, Section A, 1, the last sentence is...goes to the idea that the violation can be proven, regardless of actual hindrance or prevent...that language is not in the second subsection, and I'm...wonder if, uh, that, if it should be? Champion/ I don't understand your question. Hayek/ Well...okay. The...the second sentence in sub-paragraph A, uh, A.1. is not in sub- paragraph A.2. Dilkes/ Probably should be. Hayek/ Okay. Bailey/ And just a....logistical sort of detail question. If...if we were to go forward on this, could we add trails to, after sidewalk, as well? I...I think that that's distinct, but I've heard some complaints. Dilkes/ Are you still on the loitering (both talking) Bailey/ I am. It's in A.l. I assume that it would be street, sidewalk, trail, bridge or crossing. I've heard some concerns about some of our trails, as well. I mean, would it.. . Champion/ Good point. Bailey/ Do you have other questions, Matt? Mike? Wright/ Um, yeah, I've got a couple, and since we're on the loitering ordinance right now, um, the...the first subsection, no persons shall congregate, stand, loiter upon any street or bridge so as to obstruct, um, what about a group, a group is walking down the middle of the street, is that... Dilkes/ That's loitering on the street. Wright/ That would be construed as loitering? Okay. And, um...in your memorandum, you, uh, on page...3, that first full paragraph there, talking about, um, disproportionate contact with minority youth, which is certainly a concern I've heard, uh, raised before. It's my understanding there's a local committee that addresses the issue of disproportionate minority contact. What committee is that? Dilkes/ L ..I think Amy probably has...I think you're on that Committee, and I think the Chief has someone on that Committee. I don't know a lot about the Committee. The reason I This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council special work session meeting of September 10, 2009. September 10, 2009 City Council Page 5 put the...that information in here is because Mr. Wyatt asked that I pass that thought of his along. Wright/ What Committee is this? (several talking) Correia/ Yeah, there is, and I brought some data as well, um, there is a Committee that's looking at addressing looking at the issue of disproportionate contact, um, with the juvenile justice system of minority youth, um, primarily Africa-American youth because the data shows that there's significant, um, disproportionate contact, um, with juvenile justice system ofAfrican-American youth in Johnson County. It's very high. In fact, I pulled the numbers before I came and...and um, from 2007 to 2008, it was actually, um, increasing, um, the issue...the greatest disproportionately is, um, contact at the law enforcement stage, at the...at the arrest/charge stage, um, and so there has been issues. There's...there's also disproportionality in disciplinary actions in the school...in the school system, um, the Committee has addressed that issue and provided recommendations to the School District, um, there's disproportionality at different stages within the juvenile court process, in terms of what, who gets referred to juvenile court, who's detained, who's put on formal probation, um, the numbers within the funnel, um, are disproportionate, as well, but those numbers seem to be improving. The juvenile court system has started to put anumber ofevidence-based practices in place to try and address, um, that issue there, and so uh, the Committee has, um, been looking at different, um, best-practices related to law enforcement contact. There's some training that's been going on, uh, in the last couple of months, uh, some leadership training, cultural competency training, but certainly a tough, uh, nut to crack, um...serious concern when you look at the numbers in the adult population ofAfrican-American, um, men especially who are incarcerated, I mean, we sort of talk about it as a prison, uh, to grave, crayola to grave prison pipe line, and so really want to try and interrupt that...early, um, so... Wilburn/ The Committee also, um...it has members from, uh, the School...the School District, Human Services, and has looked at disproportionate, uh, minority, um, representation in all of those arenas. So they began by looking at issues related to the schools and made some recommendations to the schools, uh, some of which were implemented, and then they moved on to, uh, law enforcement, and so they...it's not just, um, related to law enforcement, but there are other areas that (both talking) Hargadine/ More than just this area. It's anation-wide problem. We're very consistent with every other...jurisdiction (mumbled). Correia/ There's also been, um, certainly there's been State and County funding that have...have gone towards social service responses; providing meaningful, positive youth development opportunities for, um, youth during out of school time, um, trying to target what other periods of time, what are activities that...minority youth want to be involved in, that will positively engage them. There's mentoring programs that are being funded through State, federal programs, as well, so it's certainly amulti-faceted approach. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council special work session meeting of September 10, 2009. September 10, 2009 City Council Page 6 Champion/ Amy, what is the, um, social services doing at the State level and here to stop the crime rate among many minority juveniles? What's being done to address that problem, because you can't really address the jail problem or the police contact problem to address that. Correia/ We11....I would say that there are, um, there are some...some best-practices to try and mitigate and de-escalate issues of when law enforcement have contact, um, with minority youth. The State of Connecticut has a, um, a...a curriculum of building positive relationships between youth and police, cause I think some of the issues, um, that we hear about are...are, um, some issues related to um, respect or lack of respect, and some escalation that happens that maybe could not happen given different types of responses, potential responses. So, if there are sometimes multiple charges, um, for minority youth that, um, you know, escalate, um, so and that...gets youth more involved and, um, some...there have been studies looking at just, um, something that the juvenile court office has really been trying hard to do is really look at who goes into detention, because studies have suggested... found that, um, when you put aloes-offending youth, low risk, but maybe they've done one, you know, one thing serious, but never been in trouble before and they come in contact with high-offending youth or high... more high-risk youth that...that, um, is...creates negative consequences, become more offending versus less, so um, for example, things like ascared-straight type of program that people like bring kids into prison and just scare them -that has been shown to have a negative, in fact opposite effect, with youth and so you don't want to do those types of things. So it's really trying to figure out, trying to keep the different populations of...of youth, um, separated so that we don't, uh, have youth starting to think of themselves as...as criminal and that being part of their identity, um, and so there are different ways, um, but it...you know, it has to be very thoughtful and it takes more effort. It might take a little bit more money to figure it out, but in the long...long term there'd be better benefit to the...that individual, and to the...to the community and to the, you know, it's less expensive to have (mumbled) you know, not in...incarcerated and in the community and so I mean those are things that are not quick fixes, but are really important to try and figure out and grapple with difficult feelings and long held beliefs and assumptions and... and things like that. Bailey/ Thank you. Other questions or concerns, just generally for Eleanor? Wilburn/ I have another, this one's just to...kind of a, a background question about one of the cases you decided to cite. Kind of have that in mind for context. LTh, you cited the, uh, what's the... Maquoketa...Maquoketa wrestle, um, and that was a case, uh, if I am remembering right where, uh, the serving court, I know that, uh, curfews are constitutional in Iowa. That was decided before, but this was the one where, uh, it was too vague and so it said that there had to be certain, uh, exemptions provided. Is that correct? Okay. And, the case before that, um, where it was ruled that they are constitutional in Iowa, um, and again, I know that they are constitutional, but that was a 5-4 decision? Okay. I...I was just kind of curious to...was it like, um...privacy, right...what some...the questions (both talking) This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council special work session meeting of September 10, 2009. September 10, 2009 Ciry Council Page 7 Dilkes/ Generally, um, throughout the country, curfew ordinances have been...have been upheld as constitutional, if they have certain protections. Wilburn/ Right. Dilkes/ And what this case established is that if you don't have those protections, um, that allow...uh, youth to engage in, um, protected activity, like um, religious activity, political activity, um, in this particular case they said there needed to be an exception for an emancipated minor. Wilburn/ Right. Dilkes/ Um...and...and...and if you look at, if you look at the ordinance, we've pretty much put all those exceptions within it. Wilburn/ Right, right, and actually that helped to answer one of the questions I had earlier, cause I wasn't aware that, uh, political or civic, um, activities were part of that, because I was thinking back to some of the campaigns where, uh, with parent's knowledge we've had high school students out, you know (mumbled) Dilkes/ It specifically is, and that was the thing...one of the specific things the Clerk pointed out in that case. Wilburn/ And, uh, if I could, um, too, uh, this is...I was just trying to think of, uh, different scenarios, um, there was a period of time, and I'm not unique in this, but there was a period of time when I was, uh, a freshman at Iowa where I was 17. Um, are they emancipated? Are they included, um.. . Dilkes/ I'd think they'd be included. Wilburn/ They would be included, okay. All right. Um...it was like...I think it was a month, month, month and a half where it was, uh.. . Dilkes/ I had a reporter, a DI reporter tell me he thought that there were about 150 17-year-olds at the University. I, you know, I just...that's just the figure that I was given. Wilburn/ Yeah, and then...if...if the Council were to decide to go with that, is it enforceable on University property? Dilkes/ Yes. Wilburn/ Okay, all right. Uh... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council special work session meeting of September 10, 2009. September 10, 2009 City Council Page 8 Champion/ But how much discretion are the police allowed, I mean, honestly, if you study at the Library and you're walking back to the dorm, I mean, the police have some discretion. Hargadine/ We have discretion in every... Champion/ Common sense! Hargadine/ ...in every neighborhood, correct. Champion/ And so, I can't...I mean, I can't...I don't think you can spell everything out, but it seems to me that police are pretty smart, that they have to have some discretion in any law, um, and some common sense, but obviously it's University students that are going to be 17. A lot of them are going to be at the Library until 1 or 2 in the morning, if they're an Engineering student at least (laughter) and... and need to get back to the dorm or apartment, wherever they live. Wilburn/ Well that's going to be a question after we have the logistic (mumbled) the Chief that I'm going to ask of (mumbled) Council is, we need to get clear direction as to what that is, because that's where you can get in trouble with that discretion because technically it's curfew violation. It's not behavior. It's curfew violation. Is that correct, Eleanor? That's...that's what is being made illegal is that you are out after...doesn't matter what you're doing, you're technically you're in...you are in violation because you are outside of... Dilkes/ Unless you're (both talking) Wilburn/ Right. Champion/ But this...this first (several talking) says that minor's place of employment in a business, trade, or occupation seems to me a (several talking). Right. School activities (several talking). Bailey/ But...1:00, well, it depends if we use the tiered or not, but.. . Dilkes/ Well, the question is...if you're going to cover 17-year-olds, what's the distinction between a 17-year-old who's a college student and a 17-year-old who's a high school student? I mean, you have to be clear about why you're making that distinction. Bailey/ And, Ross asked the question, would they be viewed as emancipated because they (both talking). Okay. So, any other clarifications, before we ask the...before I ask the broader question is...is this something we want to step into and...and move ahead on, the juvenile curfew? Wilburn/ Is this time for the logistical questions or... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council special work session meeting of September 10, 2009. September 10, 2009 City Council Page 9 Bailey/ Yeah, I mean, if that, if that would influence how you...if you're leaning towards...you know, putting this on an agenda and moving forward -yeah - I think now would be a good time. Wilburn/ Um, then I wanted to ask the Chief, um, you know, Eleanor's memo was very helpful in terms of, uh, behaviors that have been identified and...and uh, and what, um...can be covered by existing State or local statute ordinance. Um, given that clarification and understanding, and the differences between what you're envisioning with what happened in Missouri and what is possible under Iowa law, um, what are the barriers to an officer responding to these behaviors, uh, is it...is it people power, is it neighbors calling in, is it too busy doing other things -what are some of those barriers? Hargadine/ Certainly all of those, um, it is going to require that we get a call, or stumble across something, um, most of the jurisdictions that...that Eleanor, uh, talked about, especially Coralville and North Liberty, uh, those...and those departments I'm familiar with, the curfew enforcement is done as a means of last resort. Typically, uh, a patrol car rolls up, 'Kids it's time to go home, you're out past'...and...and if they go home, that's fine. No report is generated, um...voluntary compliance is the...is the first step. It's when, um, that doesn't work that they typically seek enforcement. Um, you mentioned, um, the busy...the busier, because if this is late-night hours, we do get busier. My guess is, absent a crime in progress, uh, vandalism in progress, those types of things, a curfew violation in and of itself is probably going to be fairly low priority, as it comes in to the 9-1-1 Center. It's going to be coded as a low priority, and if we are busy with fights and...and other things, it maybe, uh, there maybe some time before we get an officer over there, and...and in like instances, many times that group is gone by the time we do get there. So, that is a limiting factor, as well. But let's just say the officer is in the neighborhood and we don't have that many calls going on at that particular time, uh, I envision this as...um, you know, first...first and foremost, be educational - 'Guys, it's time to go home.' Wilburn/ Okay, and then...um, that's getting into some more of the logistical stuff. Um...they don't go home and then there has to be the information gathering about, that are outlined, you know, the age and... and notifying the (both talking) Hargadine/ ...the less likely they are at carrying LD. I mean, some of them carry student LD.s, uh, some of them don't carry any, so that...that is somewhat of a problem, but um, whether there's an ordinance or not, that doesn't mean they can't take that child in to, um, temporary custody until we (both talking) notify a parent, um, typically when...when we do find the parent, we'll compare birthdates to see if they...they match. Um, so, they don't and uh, so those kind of things would go on, just like they do now. Wilburn/ What are the logistical implications of the older child and you've...you've gotta...gotta bring them in, you've got to figure out where they're supposed to be, and the parent, uh, what are the implications staffing wise and...and prioritization... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council special work session meeting of September 10, 2009. September 10, 2009 City Council Page 10 Hargadine/ We're probably the most expensive babysitting service that you can possibly come up with. Um, so hopefully, that doesn't happen very often, um, our intent is...there's, especially with, the older the child, there's nothing that says we couldn't cite and release, and say 'Go home.' Um, there's nothing that says we have to maintain custody of that child after they've been arrested. Wilburn/ Okay, uh, that citation and release is a (several talking) Hargadine/ That's an option. Assuming you've positively identified who the child is. Wilburn/ Right. Others may...I've got a couple, but I need to sort through... Hayek/ Chief, assume, uh, if you assume that the loitering obstruction ordinance is passed, um, going back to the curfew ordinance, uh, and assume it doesn't change dramatically from....from how it's been presented and proposed. Does the department view that...the curfew ordinance as helpful? Wright/ Exactly the question I was going to ask! Champion/ ...question too. O'Donnell/ Good question! Hargadine/ I think it's just one more tool that we would have access to. And...um, the neighborhood that brought this forward, I think it will assist us to assist them in getting their neighborhood back. Hayek/ I mean because I...I think there maybe some, well, misinformation or a misunderstanding that the police department did not want a curfew ordinance, instead wanted the loitering obstruction, uh, I was here for those meetings. I interpreted it to be, your thought that, uh, that the loitering obstruction would be a more powerful tool, but that the curfew ordinance was also something you wanted. Hargadine/ You maybe confusing that with my earlier opinions that were public that, uh, I didn't think you should have to put every kid in town under house arrest, um, in order to get compliance just in certain...in areas, and so, but absent, um, the ability to...to target delinquent...certain delinquent acts with a certain person who's committing them, just we can't do that. That's off the table. I think we have to...that pushes more emphasis on having to look at it. Correia/ Except that I, right, except that...I...I feel like it...it's behaviors that are occurring in the late hours that is the big concern, and that those behaviors, as Eleanor pointed out, are all behaviors where there is a...ability to charge and have a...have a referral to juvenile court for (both talking) This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council special work session meeting of September 10, 2009. September 10, 2009 Ciry Council Hargadine/ In some instances, but not every instance. Page 11 Correia/ But most of the instances that were listed, I mean, the only instance that wasn't was the loitering. All the others, Eleanor has determined through talking with the juvenile court office and the County Attorney's office that there is the ability for the police to intervene and charge for that behavior. We don't have...this is, I mean, I appreciate that the State of Missouri had different ways of responding to juvenile delinquency behaviors, but that Iowa has a, you know, delinquency behavior, or whatever, laws and that, you know, there are ways for the police to charge for, um, for the commission of those behaviors. Um.. . Hargadine/ I think the number one complaint I heard was roving packs of kids out late at night, all night long, and I'm not aware that that being illegal in Iowa City presently. Correia/ Right, so the, I mean, was that, so that was the loitering. Dilkes/ That would be loitering (both talking) Correia/ Right. Hargadine/ If you were not in the street though, or trespassing on private property, you haven't committed a loiter. O'Donnell/ Chief, would this be a helpful tool to our police department? Hargadine/ I believe it would. Wilburn/ What steps, or what direction, um, you mentioned, um, a neighborhood, but what steps or guidance would be necessary for you and your staff to ensure, uh, this is in, uh, this is a fairness question, that it is implemented city-wide and not in one neighborhood. Hargadine/ I think that's a good question. When we're called, we don't get to ask, uh, for example, um, Amy brought up the disparity in the number, the statistics on African- Americans that are put into the system. Ninety-three percent of the time when we're dealing with juveniles, 93% of the time we were called there. We don't get to ask, when the phone rings, is this a white suspect or a black suspect? Okay, we can't come in that case. We've got to go regardless, and so that's...that's our main issue with fairness is we've got to go and address the problem, in any particular area of the city when it comes up. That's...we gotta go! That's, in itself, uh, it may be...it may turn out that six months after, if this ordinance is passed, it maybe disparate. We've...you've got to...you've got to know that going in. It probably will be disparate. But why is it disparate? It's not because the police are prejudice. It's because we've been called to a certain area more. Wilburn/ And that's not what I was implying (both talking) Hargadine/ I know! But I want to get that out on the table. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council special work session meeting of September 10, 2009. September 10, 2009 City Council Page 12 Wilburn/ Yeah, and there's, uh, I'm glad you did, uh, but there's a couple other pieces to...to that, um, and I just want this as information for the Council to deliberate and kind of digest. Hargadine/ I suspect that it will be disparate. Wilburn/ And um...uh, a concern comes up about, uh, liability, potential liability, um, and claims of, uh, unequal, uh, enforcement, that's part of it. iJh, but the other... Dilkes/ Let me just say... Wilburn/ Okay. Dilkes/ ...generally if there is an objective basis for the stop... Wilburn/ LJh-huh. Dilkes/ ...you're in pretty good shape. Wilburn/ Right. Dilkes/ ...from a liability (both talking) Wilburn/ And, one of the things (mumbled), Chief, was the, um, that you respond to the calls, but, on an evening when there aren't as many calls or...excuse me, there aren't other activities going around town...and officers are driving around, there's a presumption that in, um, the southeast side now that when an officer is driving around, if there's a curfew, they're going to stop and, 'Hey, time to go home, kids.' That should...what...that should be going on in other parts of the town is what...is what I'm getting at. Hargadine/ I would agree with that. Wilburn/ Yeah. And that's...that's what I, um...but the sort of flip side of that is, when things are going on, there's an expectation...added expectation in my opinion, there maybe, that uh, because there's curfew attached to it, we're going to get a quicker response, and that's just not necessarily the case. Hargadine/ What do you mean, a quicker response? Correia/ For the call. Wilburn/ For the call. Hargadine/ I don't see curfew violations, as they're coded by 9-1-1 dispatchers being as high as a fight in progress. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council special work session meeting of September 10, 2009. September 10, 2009 City Council Page 13 Wilburn/ And you stated that earlier, yeah. Hargadine/ Uh, so that, there maybe other calls that take priority over it. Wilburn/ Right, and I just want to make sure that that's clear enough there, so thank you for that. Champion/ But, it'd be strange if somebody called the police department because there was a kid walking down the street who they thought was a minor. Wilburn/ Not necessarily. Bailey/ I think in this, I think because many people in this neighborhood have asked for this, I suspect that there will be people calling in, um, from this particular neighborhood, so I think Ross's question about fairness of enforcement is, I think that there will be more neighborhood enforcement and...and, for a period of time. Because this has been identified as a problem. O'Donnell/ I wonder though how realistic is it that you're going to get a call. Champion/ Right! O'Donnell/ If you have a young person walking down the street, doing nothing. Champion/ That's what I'm saying, I don't think you're going to get the calls. Wright/ (several talking) ...5-year-old and it's 1:00 in the morning it's pretty realistic (several talking) O'Donnell/ That's very different! You know, we're...we're...we're talking about a curfew...I...I really, I really don't know how I feel about a curfew yet. But I know we're asked to address a problem in a neighborhood that pizza places won't deliver to now. Bailey/ Some. O'Donnell/ And this has to be a blanket...blanket curfew, it has to effect everybody equally. But, I mean, I...I just, I agree with Connie. I don't think of somebody calls and says, 'Hey we have...we have two kids walking down the middle of the street.' They're not doing anything...that...that the police are going to respond very rapidly. Correia/ And I think...I wonder, I mean, in terms of thinking about...I wonder if...if, just thinking about the tendency when there's a, just sort of a general tendency, not when we have problematic behavior, criminal behavior (mumbled) behavior, we want to legislate something. We want to pass a law, and we think, okay, that is going to solve the problem, and if we could look at this...the, you know, history of that type of, you know, This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council special work session meeting of September 10, 2009. September 10, 2009 City Council Page 14 of the tough on crime period of time, um, in the U.S. that, yes, we locked up more people. There's more people locked up, but it hasn't, overall sort of nationally brought down the crime rate, um, and I think that there are...there are lots of other ways to try and address behavior...behavior that...in some cases might not be...tending toward delinquent or unsafe behaviors, groups of kids walking by, but is related to how do we...create community, that everybody feels a sense of belonging and... and, um, treats the neighborhood with respect, as well as how do we, and this is a conversation that we had early about, um, how do we, uh, assist juvenile court services and the police department, to communicate so that when kids are on probation and have a curfew, that their probation officer has given them, that the police know about that curfew, and so if they encounter, uh, a young person who, um, maybe, um, out after curfew and is on probation, that they know that and then there's consequences for that...for that child, um, versus a blanket curfew that, could have the unintended consequences of creating more ...um, negative behaviors for, uh, with youth that...that are not feeling like the police are...a support. Bailey/ So are you leaning against, I mean, I'll just over-simplify this. So are you leaning against a curfew ordinance, because of your concerns that we can get at this, these items in a different way or these other ways or...(several talking) Correia/ I mean, I do think that there are...I think that there are ways that...to address, I mean, I'm not sure how, I mean, I think I'm with Mike. I'm not sure how I feel about the curfew. What I do believe is that, yeah, it'd be really easy for us to sit up here, pass a curfew that some neighbors have asked for it, and people support it, and be like, 'Well, we did our job,' and then nothing...not much would change, but maybe some other things would get worse because...becausepenple may get more pissed off, um, and engage in more negative behavior because they're not feeling like they're a respected part of the community, or that, you know, I know it's a very social worker response and I own that, but (several talking and laughing) you know, but trying to...with my knowledge of the juvenile court system, I know that they're concerned that...that this, that the curfew ordinance could have the unintended consequence of bringing more kids in, and it's not because they got stopped for the curfew. It's because they got stopped for the curfew and they're not going to give their name and their going to mouth off to the officer and now they have a disorderly or, you know, they refused. Now they have a trespassing and then it's a slippery slope where...I'm not sure...we've just implemented the neighborhood watch, off the Community Prevention Officer. We haven't, you know, given that time, um, to start. The Broadway Neighborhood Center is initiating, um, a prof ect to do community, trying to create a community mediation project, um, you know, (mumbled) there's been some programming to initiate more youth development, um, positive youth development programming. We have folks talking about how we can provide family support, um, parent support to families. So I mean these are things that have started and...and had started, but are not quick fixes. They're not we're going to...we created this law and now magically this law will...you know, transform the circumstances, and I do think that juvenile court services and the police department having more information This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council special work session meeting of September 10, 2009. September 10, 2009 City Council Page 15 to be able to then really focus, that...that the small percentage of juveniles that are, um, offending to...to mitigate those behaviors. Champion/ On the other hand, I can look at it positively, that would also keep an 8-year-old from wondering down the street with the gang brothers that are down there and teaching that kid from a very early age how to misbehave. So I think it would require more parental supervision. I mean, I think there can be a positive side to a curfew. Wright/ But, and I don't think, I absolutely am not approaching this with the idea that the curfew is going to fix everything. It can only be a small piece in a much larger puzzle, and most of our solutions I think, true solutions, are going to be long-teen. Uh, in the short-term, I actually do see a curfew as being an effective tool the police can use, and I believe they'll use it with appropriate discretion. Um, as we discussed, it's got to be implemented and enforced fairly across the community. We can't target a particular neighborhood. You obviously can't control where your calls come from, but it's an across-the-city thing, and I think we're all aware of that walking into it. Wilburn/ I just...(several talking) Hayek/ ...just for a second, Ross. I agree with you, Amy. I don't want us to pass an ordinance to pass an ordinance. Um, you get a media splash and it has no...no effect, and I don't want to pursue something like this, if this, um, is not going to be enforced or utilized, uh, by the police department. You don't want more laws on the books than you need, um, this is going to require a sacrifice by the whole of the community, um, and we certainly don't want to create or enact laws that youth can violate with impunity because we're not...we're not using them (mumbled) its intended purpose. But, I wonder whether...you've indicated that the real tool that this provides is a means of...of getting kids home, um, and...and doing things like that, and I wonder whether, and this is to bring up your, you know, avoidance of escalation argument. I wonder whether a curfew, and...and the use to which the police department could put it would help the escalator, avoid escalation, of...of what could turn into worse behavior. Hargadine/ As I was listening to you all speak, I...what if 90% of the households in Iowa City complied with the curfew, that had kids? I think our overall calls, uh, are going to go down, because they're inside during the summer. We're past the worst part of the summer this year. But we're going to have the same issues, and a lot of the issues we had this summer, we had last summer too! We had shootings last summer. Um, I remember you called me on some of'em, so, the issues we were facing this summer were not new by any means. And we're going to probably deal with 'em next summer, as well. Um, I think this will give us a running start. Um...I gotta think though that our overall calls will go down when the majority of the kids in any area are inside after dark. Hayek/ But do you...do you see my...my thought about avoidance of escalation? Is there anything to that thought? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council special work session meeting of September 10, 2009. September 10, 2009 City Council Page 16 Hargadine/ Most kids, if they have the opportunity, you know, when an officer rolls by and says, 'It's time to go home,' most kids I think are going to...if they haven't already beat feet out of there, I suspect they're, um, they're going to go. I can't imagine, you know, um...picking a fight with an officer just for the sake of picking a fight with one. Um, so... Hayek/ But, you know, using the old, my grandmother's adage: nothing good happens after X o'clock, uh...(laughter) Champion/ Oh, I don't know! Hayek/ You know. O'Donnell/ What time is that? (several talking and laughing) Bailey/ Let's not get into that! (laughter) Hargadine/ I've heard some parents that would say a curfew will help me do my parenting job (several talking) because they don't listen to me. Champion/ I can tell you honestly that I had eight kids. I would not have objected to a curfew, and I've been talking to people as they come into my businesses and talking to people from North Liberty and Coralville. I haven't heard one person object to their curfews. Not one! And I...I think it (mumbled) it's not going to keep kids from playing basketball or going to school dance, or going to a football game, or going to work, or visiting their grandmother. It's...it's a tool, and I know... Bailey/ Grandma visits in here! (laughter) I think that's fine! Dilkes/ A...a grandmother would be (several talking) Champion/ So, I mean, I...you know, when I've been reading the editorials in the Press-Citizen, things that...they're much more negative about this. I was in favor of your original thing about the...delinquentbehauior, but now after Eleanor's memo and explanation, that's absolutely not possible, and that makes me lean toward a curfew as a tool. Um...and that, of course it would have to be enforced city-wide, but let's face it, probably 90% of kids are already following this curfew without it being in place. O'Donnell/ I think that's a very important point, Connie. I mean, you have...you have a 14-year- old kid and like Coralville's says, from 10:00 at night until 5:00 in the morning, 14-years- old -who's out that late? Bailey/ There are some, I mean, let's...I mean, it's true. I...I want to build on something that Amy said. I've always wondered why I was so dog-gone uncomfortable about curfews, and I think part of it has to do with this age thing, but your point about building This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council special work session meeting of September 10, 2009. September 10, 2009 City Council Page 17 community. If we go ahead with this, I want to make sure that we don't send the message to our youth that you are a problem, therefore, this specific law for you. That you're part of the community, we care about you, and we actually think that this is a good thing that will help you succeed in school. I think there needs to be some positive messaging as we move forward through this, because the kids of our community are not the problem. There are some problems, um, with some behaviors and the kids, they happen to be kids, and there are adult problems with behaviors too, but I think that we need to also remind them that they're part of our community and not, um, you know, it's going to be for all the kids in the community. We're not punishing. We are embracing and stepping up to our responsibility of building community and supporting them, and I think that...I have to frame it that way or couldn't go ahead with it, and (several talking) Hayek/ ...I'm drawn to Eleanor's paragraph about, um, community-based curfew programs and the interest that UAY and the juvenile court officers have...have expressed in being part of escalated prosecution of...of...I mean, I know that the early ones might just be a warning or something informal, but if it gets worse than that, getting those entities involved as a means of diversion, you know, that may be part of the solution here. Bailey/ Well, and I've talked to a lot of people who work with youth and they...they think that this is an appropriate response and an appropriate response by community to support our youth, and so that's another way that I think we need to think about it. Wilburn/ I'm glad to hear that there's...there is some, um, not total comfort with a curfew, and one of the reasons I cited that earlier, the fact that it's even constitutional in Iowa, that it was a...it was a 5-4 vote...is...that there are some, uh, other issues related to, um, related to the youth rights and teaching responsibility and parental rights and all of that. Um, and don't get me wrong. Violent and threatening behavior is unacceptable any time of day, and that's where I'm coming from -any time of day. You know, there is a lot of the studies or things that are out there related to curfews, and more surveys of elected officials who may come under political pressure to do something, uh, or law enforcement who want to have the other tool and which is I understand law enforcement may wanting to have another tool, but many of the cities, you know, aren't empirical. There's a study in the 90s when San Diego implemented a youth curfew. One or two years later they cited this dramatic drop in the crime rate, and they touted the youth curfew being the...the, uh, the determining factor. Well, when you looked at the...the data, the time of day that crime dropped was in the daytime, and it was the .exact same at nighttime. So if it wasn't, um, you know, the curfew, but because crime...the crime had dropped at a time when curfew is not in effect. Champion/ Maybe the kids had enough sleep. They were in school all day studying. O'Donnell/ Gee, ya think? (laughter) Wilburn/ Um, you know, and...I'm a parent too, and uh, and I've heard the adage nothing good happens after a certain time, but there are parents who are trying to work with the young This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council special work session meeting of September 10, 2009. September 10, 2009 City Council Page 18 people to teach behaviors. Not the time that you're out. You are...we're trying to teach you to make certain choices and put yourself in...in healthy, positive situations, and you can...you can enjoy certain rights with those responsibilities, and so my...one of my concerns is, uh, that this gets away from teaching about violent and threatening behavior being unacceptable, as opposed to the time of...the time of day. That's...that's aconcern, um, that I have, so I'm not supportive of...of curfews because of that, and uh, you know, and Chief, you guys have been doing a great job responding and following up and making arrests and continuing to make arrests, um, I would like to see the Council really try to emphasize to the Chief that his staff should be, uh, and have some basis for stopping and following up if they see certain behaviors going on, and with, um, the, uh, whether it's neighborhood watches or just neighbors getting to know neighbors, you know, get the call, or if you're intending...keep an eye on your neighbor's yard or you see something going on, you make the call, so that someone can...if someone's throwing rocks, if someone is out, um, you know, blocking traffic with the other thing, that's...that's something beyond there's a bunch of kids roaming around. It gets at, well, what are the kids doing? Well, they're, you know, I saw my neighbor trying to get by in their car in the driveway and they wouldn't move, they're just standing there. That, I suspect, might get a quicker response than, uh, I don't know. I guess I'd have to (mumbled) kids roaming around because there's a behavior that...that (mumbled) and, uh, did you have a question or... Bailey/ Well, no, so you are not supportive of moving ahead with a curfew, but you would perhaps supportive of the...the loitering ordinance? Wilburn/ Perhaps, yeah. Bailey/ Okay. Wilburn/ And then I think the other piece to, uh, I think there are some things that, uh, that we can do and direct law enforcement the notion of trying to create a stronger relationship between law enforcement and the juvenile court office, uh, L ..in terms of, uh, just awareness of who's who and who's doing what, and what restrictions someone may have, I think that's something that we, uh, could and should encourage the department to do. And then we still have the issue related to, um, some of the budgetary things and what an emphasis should be, uh, neighborhood watch has been implemented, you know, one of the community forums, people wanted to see, uh, the, uh, the officer out walking the beat. If those are things that, you know, people are wanting that could make a difference, we could try and figure out how to do that. We can invite the concerned neighbors here, uh, at the public meeting, they said, well, we're willing to do without trails and...and certain community activities that are nice amenities, but it would be helpful to have them come back at budget time and say, we don't want the City to spend money on fireworks. We think, uh, a police officer, and if neighbors are willing to do that, then it doesn't set the council up as a target to, oh, they don't want us to have our Fourth of July, or whatever the budgetary item is to...I guess it's an invitation to the neighbors to get involved in assisting us with...with the budget process. Those are things that we can do. It's giving This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council special work session meeting of September 10, 2009. September 10, 2009 City Council Page 19 direction, it's targeted at behavior, and it's not related to, uh, the time of day. And again, I think emphasizes that it's violent and threatening behavior is the issue, and not where you're at. Bailey/ Okay. So...where are we with this? I mean, I know that Ross doesn't want to move ahead with a curfew ordinance. Wilburn/ Oh, the final piece, uh, I think that comment related to the youth, that they would be willing, the youth agencies would be willing, there's not, in my experience, an endorsement of a curfew. In fact I spoke with United Action for Youth today, um, and the um, the um, supervisor staff that I spoke to, uh, is not interested, and I used to work there, um, I mean, one of the things that we used to do when we were on call, I don't know if it still goes on, but uh, if there was a young person that, uh, they were either runaway or there's some issue, they couldn't be locked up, but until a parent was contacted, our on-call person would come over and that gets at those type of relationships and other type of activities, but to my knowledge there was not an endorsement of a curfew by one of the youth service agencies. You may have had different experiences but.. . Dilkes/ I didn't mean to imply that there had been an endorsement by UAY for a curfew. Wilburn/ Right, I just wanted to clarify that. Dilkes/ I spoke to Jenny and...and I don't think UAY necessarily endorses a curfew, but they were...they were receptive, at least, to investigating, participating in a diversion program, like they do with shoplifting, in the event that there are, um, curfew citations written in the amount that would make some sense to do that. Wilburn/ Right. I wasn't going to call Jenny out but I know her and I know she doesn't support it though (laughter). Bailey/ So, I'm just trying to establish some direction, because if we're not interested in moving ahead on this, I think we can set it to rest...rest and look at the loitering. If we are interested in moving ahead on this, we should look at it and see if this is the language we're comfortable in moving ahead with. Wilburn/ I guess I would ask, uh, you've got a draft ordinance, um, and there are members of the public here. They can comment on it during the public comment section, um, of the...of the next Council meeting or two, um, and I would ask that...you've got a draft, um, let's see what happens with getting law enforcement, um, and the public. These are things you can call in. These are the behaviors you can call in and law enforcement can follow up with. Try that for a period of time first, before going through the curfew. You've got the language of the curfew, um. That would be what I would suggest. Bailey/ Okay. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council special work session meeting of September 10, 2009. September 10, 2009 City Council Page 20 Hayek/ You mean soliciting more input before we enact it, or...okay. Bailey/ Okay. Other thoughts? Wilburn/ And...with the understanding that here are some...here's some direction that the Council does support and does endorse, that...and, I mean, I haven't heard if anyone is willing to have the Chief continuing to work to strengthen some relationships and logistics with, uh, juvenile court. I mean, that's one thing, um, you know, hear from the public -are you willing to come and talk with us at budget time, um, continue to give the Chief authority to use overtime, and the relationships with, um, University Police and the Sherriff, should something arise, to help continue monitoring the situation. I mean, I would suggest putting those things out, those ideas...to give the public a chance to respond to, as opposed to all the...all the public has had now is that there's a potential curfew ordinance and not some of the other things to respond to. Wright/ I think some of the other things are...I'm hoping that we're going to be working on this for a long time, and we need to have continued conversations and... and diversion programs and...trust building and...and all of the...what Amy and Ross have been speaking about. I don't think that process precludes going ahead with the curfew ordinance, and I support going ahead with that. Um, certainly there will be plenty of opportunity for public comment, if we bring it to a Council meeting, but as I said before, the curfew is not the be-all and end-all. It's a little start. Bailey/ Okay. Hayek/ I, um, I struggled with this. I didn't know how I was going to come down on this walking in to this meeting, and my...my two concerns were, first that it will impact the whole of the community and therefore represents a sacrifice by the whole of the community, um, and...and second...whether the police department viewed it as a useful tool and something they wanted, as part of the overall approach to these issues, and I've confirmed that they do, and that...that takes me back to the first issue, and...and uh, I am willing to try this, um, and am mindful of the sacrifice of the whole of the community. I think it's...I think it's called for in this situation. We...I mean, it may not pan out well. We may revisit it, um, but that's the case with everything we do. Um, and so I am, and I, Ross, you...both you and Amy have raised good points, and...and um, I echo those as well and...and I view that as part of the ongoing, uh, task of...of the Council, and of the City. Um, but I...I would support this. Champion/ Well, I...I support it also. I think it's got some positive things, and I'd like to point out that every youth that is in trouble is not only in that neighborhood. There are other youth in this city that get in trouble. And, it will help all youth, help their parents, um, keep them in line, I guess, I don't, you know, that's a different question for me because I do think it is a parental responsibility that should be taking care of this and not me. Uh, but it's obviously not always happening, um, so I...I'm going to support it as a tool. I'm This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council special work session meeting of September 10, 2009. September 10, 2009 City Council Page 21 always willing to revisit things. I've been known to change my mind, but right now I'm going to support this. I'm a little concerned about the implementation and the fine things, but we can talk about that when we talk about the implementation. I'd like to see some other alternatives to a fine. Um, but I don't know if you can even legally do something else (mumbled) I don't know (several talking) community service... Correia/ Diversion group, go to a diversion group. Champion/ Right, right. I mean, uh, cause I think, I think Rod Sullivan had a good letter that a lot of kids that will be charged with curfew don't have the $50; neither do the family, and that is a concern of mine. I don't want you to be punished more, because you're poor. Or you come from a family that doesn't have $50, so I'd like to see some...something done with that part of it, and I might want to eliminate the 17-year-olds. Uh, a lot of seniors in high school are 17. A lot of college kids are 17, um, I mean, I have some problems with it, but I'm willing to support it as a tool and work out the problems as we discuss it further. O'Donnell/ L ..I do support it, um, you know, we've been told by our...our Chief of Police that this would be a very useful tool, and um, I...I respect that. I'm...we do...we do have a problem, and I think this is a fair way to address it. So I will support it. Wilburn/ There's a couple things I'd like to ask of Council then if... Bailey/ Can I just hear from Amy first, just so I get a sense of the table. Wilburn/ Okay. Correia/ At this...at this time, I'm not going to support it. Um, I think that there...in my mind that there's enough potential for unintended consequences of more minority youth getting involved in the juvenile court system because of escalation, and while I understand that, you know, we can revisit things at any time and...and sometimes our policies don't pan out, um, that this is different than, um, the consequences of...a young person, um, and I'm just, a young minority person getting involved in juvenile court, potentially has dramatic impact on the well-being of their life. Where when we, you know, mess around with parking downtown and people are inconvenienced because we have, you know, too much commercial parking and not enough, you know, when we revisit that, we decide we made a mistake, we haven't negatively...potentially negatively impacted the well, you know, the well-being of a young person, um, that doesn't mean that I don't think that a curfew maybe useful down the road, um, but I...I just feel like there's more...to be discussed with the police related to, um, you know, dealing with potential, um, negative responses from youth when they're being approached by police around curfew, I mean, so that we are not unintentionally pulling kids involved in juvenile court system because of escalated charges. Um, and so I can't support it (mumbled). Bailey/ Ross, you (both talking) This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council special work session meeting of September 10, 2009. September 10, 2009 City Council Page 22 Wilburn/ I'm sorry for interrupting, um, there's just two things I'd like the Council...if Council's going to...since Council's going to proceed forward with this. iJh, one, um, if you would consider, and just kind of tuck this away as you get more, uh, public input, um, the, uh, on that section it reads, this is an exception, the minor's on an emergency errand for a responsible adult, um, and emergency was defined as, I think there was some natural disaster and like medical type thing, but if you'd consider including ahealth-related, non- emergency, and then a second piece, uh this is not necessarily related to the, um, opposed curfew ordinance, but um, can we, uh, get like a periodic, quarterly update, memo, from our Community Service Officer, just how things are going and...Community Prevention Officer, yeah. Hargadine/ Sure. Wilburn/ Thanks. Bailey/ Okay. So it does look like we'd like to...the majority would like to step into this and go forward. Um, what I'd like to do next is provide some direction to staff, if there are changes. I mean, Ross has suggested one, and um, to add under the emergency definitions. Is there general comfort with that, um...addition? Hayek/ I don't have a problem with it, but I wonder whether it's maybe already addressed in the definition (several talking). Any other situation requiring immediate action to prevent serious illness? Bailey/ Well, that's what I wondered as well, but I...so what are you getting at that might not be covered, I guess is... Wilburn/ I don't know if I want to put out my health issues. Bailey/ Okay, never mind! (laughter) We'll go to Eleanor then! (laughter) Did you (several talking) Dilkes/ The way I understood, uh, Ross is that he was interested in, um, an errand that...for health-related reasons that was not an emergency. Wilburn/ That's correct. Bailey/ Okay. So we can put that...are we comfortable putting that language in there? Matt, you looked.. . Hayek/ Well, yeah, but...but, you know, quick excuse - I'm out to get bandaids for my dad - um...aspirin, Imean (several talking) Correia/ ...ins and outs of what the ordinance says! (laughter) This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council special work session meeting of September 10, 2009. September 10, 2009 City Council Page 23 Wilburn/ Either way, if there's an emergency, they're going to have to justify to the officer if they're, when they're stopped, uh, what are you out doing? Well, my, uh, you know, this is, uh, this is a medical, I got...they're going to have to justify; the officer's going to have to check it out with the parent, either way! I mean...right? Champion/ I think you've got to allow some leeway in how it's interpreted. You can't cover everything. Like I could see somebody sending their 16-year-old out who has a driver's license at 2:00 in the morning to get diapers, that they have a baby but they're out of diapers. I mean, I...I think you just have to use...you can't put everything in here. I mean...I think the police have some discretion, um, and I don't think they're going to be stopping anybody who's probably not...who's not doing anything they shouldn't be doing, uh, I grew up with a curfew and I don't ever remember being harassed by the police coming home from something. So, I have to kind of take it with.. . Wilburn/ I wasn't getting at harassment. It's just clarity, because what you think is common sense, and what Mike thinks is common sense, and what I think is common sense will vary, and that's where misunderstanding can happen. It's not about harassment. It's...it's giving the young person, um, again, it gets back at...at behavior and...and uh, and appropriate.. . Hargadine/ ...related to parental permission, so that it really doesn't mater what the errand is. If...if they had a written note saying that, you know, this kid is on an errand to Walgreen's or whatever, then okay. (several talking) Wilburn/ And you're still going to need to verify that though. Hargadine/ Sure! Wilburn/ That...it gets more at the logistical things too, in terms of verification because time's going to have to... Dilkes/ I think...I think the reason that emergency is included is that I think the idea is unless it's an emergency, and an emergency could be a parent needs medication at...at midnight, but if the parent doesn't need medication until 10:00 the next morning, then what's the need to have an exception for the curfew? That's why I think the emergency notion is included in here. Hayek/ I think prevention of serious illness softens it enough so that...it's not as draconian as...as I initially thought it might be. I mean, it's...emergency errand has a...has an expansive definition and that includes prevents serious illness, and that's going to depend on the interpretation and the discretion. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council special work session meeting of September 10, 2009. September 10, 2009 City Council Page 24 Dilkes/ Any other situation requiring immediate action to prevent serious illness, bodily injury, or loss of life. So the question is, do you want to remove the "emergency" component? (mumbled) Bailey/ I think it's clear, and your situation would be covered here, but once again, that's what you're saying is (both talking) Wilburn/ You can... Dilkes/ This is a criminal statute, a criminal ordinance. Bailey/ Right. Dilkes/ And which will be construed in favor of the defendant. So...if there is ambiguity here, it will be construed in the defendant's favor. Wilburn/ Right, and that's...and that's, and again, that gets back to the notion, it's not harassment. It's clarity. Just so the people can understand what I can...what I can (several talking) Hayek/ ...watering it down make it more clear or less clear? Wright/ I think the more we've discussed this the clearer I actually see the initial wording is. I...I think that's got enough flexibility to handle...just about any reasonable situation. Requiring immediate action to prevent a serious illness, bodily injury, or loss of life. Bailey/ Ross... Wilburn/ Doesn't appear there's support so... Bailey/ Any...any other items in this, um, this draft ordinance that you'd like to bring up for discussion? Champion/ How do people feel about the 17-year-olds, I mean, they can join the Army, right? O'Donnell/ With parental permission. Champion/ Oh! (laughter) Wright/ Sorry? Bailey/ The 17-year-olds, they can join the Army with parental permission was the discussion. did, um, talk to somebody who asked if it could be simplified and this section B, um, we have a tiered time for ages. Their question was...you know, can we name, and maybe that's not appropriate for 13-year-olds and 17-year-olds same time, but...there is some, you know, it moves and...and you have to, as you got older you would have to track it, This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council special work session meeting of September 10, 2009. September 10, 2009 City Council Page 25 and they just wondered if we couldn't establish for example 11:00 time and be done with it. If you're under 18, there's an 11:00 curfew and that was that. Or whatever time. Dilkes/ And I'll just share with you my thoughts as I was working through this. Bailey/ Right. Dilkes/ I mean, I have thought ad nauseam about this age issue because it is very...it's just, I tried to think about it in all different ways, slice it all different ways. The problem with the same curfew for every age child is you would have to set it late. I think later than 11:00 fora 17-year-old, um, movies - a 17-year-old for instance is driving and a movie, you don't get home from a movie, a late movie, until later. Um, so that...that was my thinking about that. I just could not make a time that would apply for all ages. And...and similarly, then you've got a time that's so late that it really doesn't make a lot of sense for a younger child. Bailey/ Right, and it was simply a question that she thought it would simplify, and I don't have kids so I...I don't think about these things so...I don't know what other people think. O'Donnell/ I think a 17-year-old, um, should be able to be out later, um... Champion/ Than an 8-year-old. O'Donnell/ Than an 8-year-old, yes! (laughter) Um, you have a football game that goes into overtime, um, a movie at night, um... Bailey/ Okay. So there's general comfort with this tiered. Dilkes/ A football game that goes into overtime, I mean, just so we're all clear here. A football game that (both talking) overtime is a...is an accepted activity, so they could be out... Hayek/ ...sticks around for the entire football game is in the clear. Bailey/ Is accepted. Okay. Dilkes/ But a movie is not! Or hanging out at....hanging out at a friend's house isn't. Bailey/ And they were...they were comfortable with... Wright/ ...question this as well. Bailey/ Okay. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council special work session meeting of September 10, 2009. September 10, 2009 City Council Page 26 Wright/ And, um...I was actually talking to somebody else who brought up the exact scenario that Eleanor brought up. Said, well, what if there's a, they just go to a long movie, and it starts at 8:30 and you're 17. So I do see...I see some logic there. Wilburn/ If I'm not mistaken, the uh, the...the original case that resulted in the 5-4 split, um, and I didn't read all the details, but my understanding was the issue, uh, the kid that was, that violated curfew rode his skateboard to a mall, and was out after curfew, was given a citation, and I don't...actually I think the fine, if...if the print was correct, it was a nominal fine, but uh, but it rose through the ranks of the, uh, courts. So...just an FYI. Bailey/ Did you have a comment? Correia/ I was just saying so when I let my 14-year-old go down to the midnight Harry Potter with her friends (mumbled) I wouldn't be able to do that. Bailey/ You'd have to go with them. Wright/ But you'll get to go, which is not a bad thing. Dilkes/ Parents of the friend (several talking) Bailey/ So, okay, I just wanted to pass on that concern, and if...if others are comfortable with it. Anything else about the language, because we'll move forward with this language ...because it's what we have, unless... Correia/ So the...the fine...is there a way to do fine or other...diversion (mumbled) Dilkes/ Well, cities only have the ability to impose a fine or um, jail time. Of up to 30 days. Champion/ Oh! Dilkes/ Um, now judge...magistrates do sometimes, at...some more than others, um, impose a community service in lieu of a fine. Um, if you wanted to have...if you wanted to make sure the fine could be avoided, what you would do is a deferred prosecution program where, for instance, um, the child is charged and you say if you do A, B, and C, we will...within a six-month period, we'll dismiss the charge. Correia/ We can put that in there? We can put that in the...in this? Dilkes/ We wouldn't put it in the ordinance. We would just do that. For instance, as I understand it, UAY runs a, maybe you have more information on this, but runs a shoplifting, um, diversion program where if...if there's a charge of shoplifting, they, um, they defer prosecution of that charge and they go to a class, and if they complete that then they dismiss the charge. It would be the same kind of thing. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council special work session meeting of September 10, 2009. September 10, 2009 City Council Correia/ Okay. Page 27 Dilkes/ I...I'm hesitant to put it...because of what I...the way I think curfews are likely to be used, which at least what I'm hearing from other communities is, and what Chief seems to be suggesting, is that there aren't...we're not anticipating a lot of citations. So, I think it would be good to get some experience with it, before we see if a diversion program makes some...makes sense. Someone's got to pay for that program, um, it's not going to be done for free, but I mean, we certainly could put one in place, if the Council wants us to, but I just...I don't know that...that there's going to be a real need for one. I don't know. What do you think? Hargadine/ I agree. I think we have to watch it first and kind of track how many, um, I think.. . Bailey/ How was the shoplifting diversion program developed? Was there a...a critical mass and then they brought on the program, or, so they watched it for.. . Wilburn/ Yeah, there was a...there was, um, a mass of kids and they were looking at trying to...how to prevent recidivism, and it's a joint collaboration between the County Attorney's office, the juvenile court, and United Action for Youth. It's...the program happens at, um, it's coordinated, I believe, by the, uh, the juvenile court office, um...yeah, I mean, somebody has to collect all the names and get the information out, and package it for parents and kids, and it occurs over at the Courthouse, and uh, and someone has to send out the letters and notification and all that, and I don't (several talking) Bailey/ So if we received the quarterly statistics, I think we could get a sense of at what point we would pursue this with community agencies, is that...I mean, I think that that would make sense. Wilburn/ Yeah, and I think it was...I think it was, uh, it was a combination again of the numbers and, uh, some repeat offenders. Bailey/ Okay. Is everybody comfortable with looking, I mean, we're going to have to track this, I think, and... any response, and I, I mean, I'm concerned too about a fine seems, that's not getting at what we need to get at. I mean, a diversion program or some other programming would get at what we're trying to get at. Any other...issues or comments about the language of the ordinance itself? You had a question about (coughing, unable to hear) Champion/ Well, I had a question about the 17-year-olds, but I'm still concerned about that fine, um, so if we start citing kids and is that an automatic fine? Hargadine/ It's up to the magistrate. Champion/ Oh it's up to the...that's right. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council special work session meeting of September 10, 2009. September 10, 2009 City Council Page 28 Dilkes/ You could, I mean, you can do a fine a couple different ways. You can set the fine, like $50, you can set it at $25, you can set it at $100. Correia/ Can we set it at $15? Dilkes/ You can set it at $15. Um...you know. Um, or you can say, you know, the magistrate shall impose a fine of up to some...X, and leave it in the magistrate's discretion. Champion/ How do other people feel about that fine? Correia/ I think it should be lower. Wright/ Actually like leaving it up to the magistrate's discretion. (mumbled) Hargadine/ As opposed to 30 days in jail? Correia/ No! As opposed to having it be lower (laughter) from the beginning. So, if...you know, I think I had a fine when I rode my bike on the sidewalk downtown. Of course that was a long time ago. Bailey/ Uh-huh. Correia/ Thirty dollars, I don't know, what is that now, riding your bike on the sidewalk? (mumbled) $80? Bailey/ What do other people feel about the fine? O'Donnell/ I don't have a problem with the $50. Correia/ $30? For folks that can pay $50, they'll pay $50. For folks that can't pay $50, $50 is a lot, so... Bailey/ $50 is a lot. Correia/ In terms of it being a deterrent, I don't necessarily know, we have to do something! Hayek/ Let's let the magistrate decide. Cap it at $50. Bailey/ Up to...the language would be (both talking) at the magistrate's discretion. Hayek/ ...determines. I like that. O'Donnell/ Good. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council special work session meeting of September 10, 2009. September 10, 2009 City Council Hayek/ That's how those things are worked out anyway, they're... Bailey/ I'm comfortable with that. I'm comfortable with discretion. Correia/ You've probably had good luck with it. Bailey/ Anything else in the ordinance? Champion/ What do people feel about the 17-year-old business? Hayek/ I want to leave 'em in it. Champion/ Okay. Hayek/ I did more damage at 17 than 15. Page 29 Bailey/ I had a driver's license at 17. I, um, would not say the same thing as Matt did, but I understand that statement. Okay, anything else? Okay, um, the next question... Dilkes/ I think, all right...I think...Ross, you may have found an error in here that there is not an exception for an emancipated minor, and there should be. (several talking) There's a definition, but then it doesn't get into the exceptions. But I'll fix that. Bailey/ Okay. So, there's an opportunity to, um, put this particular first reading on our special formal on Monday evening. Champion/ I think that's great. Bailey/ Are we interested in moving that quickly? Correia/ Why on Monday, why not on Tuesday, our regular formal meeting? Bailey/ Because we actually could do three readings in two days if we...if we wanted to enact this quickly, which some people have asked us to do. And so, I'm just laying it out...our options out. O'Donnell/ I'm fine with that. Bailey/ You're fine with which? O'Donnell/ The, putting it on Monday, final reading Tuesday. Bailey/ Others? Wright/ I'd like to allow for a little bit more community input than that process would allow. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council special work session meeting of September 10, 2009. September 10, 2009 City Council Page 30 Bailey/ Okay. Wright/ We've heard from some people, but we have not heard...the, the broad range of opinion that we typically get over something that maybe controversial. Bailey/ Okay. So...so are you proposing putting it on Tuesday and then carrying it forward as we would do any other ordinance? Okay. O'Donnell/ Fine with that too. Bailey/ Connie? Champion/ Well, I...I would like to see it on Monday and Tuesday, but I would not expedite it. Correia/ Might as well just wait till Tuesday. Dilkes/ But then there's really no reason to have (several talking) Bailey/ Those no (several talking) of expediting. Yeah. Champion/ Right, okay. Sure. Hayek/ I believe it should be on...on Tuesday, with adequate (mumbled) should be solicited, and I...I like using those expedited approaches sparingly. Bailey/ All right. Hayek/ And this answers Ross's concern about getting (mumbled) getting this out to the public more and getting more input. Bailey/ Well, and I have been asked how quickly, and so that's why I was (both talking) Hayek/ I understand. Yeah, but the point of (both talking) Bailey/ I told people that it could happen as quickly as this, if we did these things, and that's why I wanted to check. If we were interested in doing those things. Hayek/ There's clear pressure to do it all next week. Bailey/ Absolutely! Hayek/ But...but the (both talking) Bailey/ From some people, as Mike pointed out. We've heard from some people. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council special work session meeting of September 10, 2009. September 10, 2009 City Council Page 31 Hayek/ I think the input on something like this is very important (mumbled) Bailey/ Okay, so... Wilburn/ If you're not aware, um, an emancipated, uh, young person, some of them might be involved with a program, like one of the transitional living programs, others may not (mumbled) be out on their own, so... Champion/ But there are how many in town do you think? (mumbled) Wilburn/ I'd be plucking a number out of the air. Champion/ Right! Bailey/ So...an ordinance on Tuesday is fine (coughing, unable to hear) we have time to post and get that done, correct? Karr/ We'll put first consideration of the proposed ordinance...well, the proposed ordinance as amended with the changes you have agreed to tonight. Bailey/ Okay. All right, let's look at this loitering ordinance. Champion/ Would we have a public hearing.. . Correia/ Will that be posted... Karr/ We'll have to post tomorrow, but we typically wouldn't distribute a revised...we'll distribute a revised agenda, but typically we wouldn't distribute, uh, the ordinance itself, because it's already been posted. We can put it on the City web site. Bailey/ I think we...I think we should. If we are really interested in hearing public comment, I think that it needs to be out in front of people. Where is it on the public web site right now? As people ask. Karr/ Right now it'd be in the Info Packet. Of the 3rd. Bailey/ So, when we post an amended agenda, can we do a link to it? Karr/ If we redo the entire agenda packet of 222 pages that we released today, yes. Wright/ Could we put a link to it on the front page? Bailey/ Yeah. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council special work session meeting of September 10, 2009. September 10, 2009 City Council Page 32 Karr/ We could, but that wouldn't be what you'd click when you get the agenda subscription. You know, if you subscribe to get the agenda and the revision, it would be in laserfiche; it wouldn't be to the web site; but we can relink it, yes. Champion/ But this is in there, this... Karr/ It is not in the agenda, it's in the Information Packet of the 3rd. Champion/ Right, right. Bailey/ I would like to do something that would not cause staff to redo the entire agenda packet, but would make it very easily...the, very easily accessible. I think you all can figure out what that might look like. Karr/ Okay. Bailey/ Is there concurrence of moving in that direction? O'Donnell/ Sure. Bailey/ That people need to see the language that we're considering. Karr/ And there would not be a public hearing. They would be allowed to speak during the... Bailey/ Right, it's just for consideration and discussion. Wright/ Yeah, just something where there's as few clicks as possible so it's pretty...pretty transparent. Bailey/ Okay, and...and then...we'll ask you how, because I'm sure people will be asking us where.. . Karr/ Well, we'll be sending out a press release. Ifll have to be posted and everything, so yeah. Bailey/ Okay. All right. Let's talk about loitering ordinance. Um...how are people feeling about moving ahead on this? Amy? Correia) So, we're going to...what about like Hawkeye football games? Bailey/ That's a whole big loitering event. Correia/ ...lot of loitering happening then? Again, I guess...maybe, I feel like...while, yes I'm concerned about, um, passing an ordinance that is put...brought forth related to...I mean, I fear the unequal enforcements, um, based on.. . This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council special work session meeting of September 10, 2009. September 10, 2009 City Council Page 33 Champion/ Well, there is some loitering on Iowa football games that I'd like to address. (laughter and several talking) Bailey/ There's some in my neighborhood that I'd like... Wright/ Last Saturday night there was a gang of about six kids, not a gang. I mean, a group of about six kids, uh, standing on the corner at, uh, 1:30 A.M. Bailey/ Uh-huh, often times. Wright/ They were...intimidating, let's put it that way, and I was out walking the dog and I saw two different groups just go make a big wide path around 'em so they didn't have to...so I... Correia/ Happens on Dubuque Street a lot, even at like 10:00 P.M. Bailey/ Oh, I'm sure. Wright/ (mumbled) 10:00 A.M. (laughter) Bailey/ Okay, so...you don't want to move ahead on this? Correia/ I mean, I'm not, again, I'm not sure. I mean, I think that... Bailey/ Okay. I'm sorry I started with you again. (laughter) I didn't mean to put you on the spot. Correia/ I passed around the...I wanted...I don't know if you saw this letter to the editor from, um, that was in the paper on Sunday, I believe, from uh, a person who works with, uh, youth that are involved in the juvenile court system around looking at comprehensive ways of neighborhood, building community, building positive relationships with youth and adults in the community, um, and ways to do that, to start to impact on some of the, the behaviors, um, that are problematic versus, as well as, you know, what are things we see as problematic that aren't' really causing problems, versus what are things that are truly problematic and how...how do perceptions turn into problematic behavior. I mean, it's that whole psych...sociological, psychological, I don't know, but...so again, I...I, again, I think that this will, as well, create more potentially, create more disproportionality ofcontact in juvenile court, with additional charges, where we're trying to deal with what the current...situation is. I suppose I'm not interested in it. Bailey/ All right. Thank you. O'Donnell/ What are some examples of this? I mean, just blocking the sidewalk, um... Wright/ Kids blocking the streets when the (both talking) This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council special work session meeting of September 10, 2009. September 10, 20b9 ~ City Council Page 34 O'Donnell/ How about if you're panhandling and blocking traffic and...two or three of'em, like we see on a regular basis, um...does that come into play? Wright/Blocking traffic? I haven't... O'Donnell/ Well, no, you can see 'em walking with the buckets down on Riverside Drive, in the traffic. (both talking) No, walking actually between the cars and down between the cars as they stop. Is that... Dilkes/ Our panhandling ordinance already makes that illegal. O'Donnell/ But does this, would this cover it, I mean, that is, uh, that is loitering to some degree. Wright/ But if panhandling already covers it, what's the difference? O'Donnell/ well, that's what I want, you know, is this... Dilkes/ Well, I mean, you have to be panhandling. Wright/ Yeah, yeah. (several talking and laughing) If you're just casually walking between the cars.. . O'Donnell/ You can't do that. Bailey/ As, um... Dilkes/ If you were walking between cars and not panhandling, then.. . Wright/ Not panhandling, just having a good time! O'Donnell/ Well, is this meant to address a group of people standing in the street, um, you know, if it does that then I'll support it, but if it's going to break it up. Dilkes/ That was the behavior that had been identified by the neighbors that I thought this would address. Wright/ And it does say congregate, stand, loaf, or loiter upon any street, sidewalk, bridge, or crossing. I think we said we wanted to add trails in there (mumbled) O'Donnell/ I don't have a problem with it. Hayek/ I think this is a far easier decision than the other one. (several talking) And I have considerable experience with the walking down the middle of the street where I (mumbled) near Dodge it happens all the time, and someone is going to get injured. And...and presently there's no way of addressing that. But, I...I, you know, I really This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council special work session meeting of September 10, 2009. September 10, 2009 City Council Page 35 appreciate staffs, Eleanor's memo on this, because it has shown that...there are so many laws on the books presently that can be enforced to address those specific behaviors. This is a very measured approach, that identified two clear, uh, gaps in...in our ordinances, and limits our approach to those gaps. Bailey/ Okay. Wright/ And this shouldn't have an effect on somebody who goes out running. Lots of runners go down the street. Bailey/ Yes. Wright/Because it does talk about, um, so as to obstruct the street, sidewalk, bridge or crossing, or hinder or prevent persons from passing. So I think it's written with a fair amount of leeway. Bailey/ Connie? (several talking) Champion/ No, go ahead. Shipley/ I was going to say, I think it's obvious when you talk about vehicular traffic, but my concern is, um, you know, with the pedestrians on the sidewalks, like if someone's outside having a cigarette or a lot of times on Clinton Street, people congregate all the time and sometimes it's difficult to come through. I mean, I don't think that should be a criminal act, just hanging outside the bar. But... O'Donnell/ I'm not sure obstructing traffic walking down the sidewalk. Wright/ I think we've all experienced just having to weave around people. (several talking) Bailey/ I think this was born out of not only weaving around people or kids who might choose to walk down the middle of the street because they're, you know, there's a bunch of them and they want to have a couple walking side by side, but there was some sense that they were blocking traffic, or they felt...people felt uncomfortable that they were going to hit them or they were...they were concerned about that. It was not just using the street as a...as sort of a large sidewalk. O'Donnell/ And again, it's complaint-activated, and... Bailey/ Well, I think... Dilkes/ ...identified was kind of an 'in your face' kind of... Bailey/ Yeah! This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council special work session meeting of September 10, 2009. September 10, 2009 City Council Page 36 Dilkes/ You know, hanging out in the street, you know, what are you going to do to make me move? Wright/ And I don't think standing in the middle of a sidewalk outside the bar is really an attempt to hinder anybody else passing through. Champion/ Well, there was a...I mean, I haven't personally experienced this happening but my daughter did on Dodge Street, which was not in the neighborhood we've been talking about. Um, literally there was 50 kids on Dodge Street and it was very intimidating. She just turned around and went another direction. But, I mean, people shouldn't feel that they can't drive down the street. I mean, I don't know what their intentions were, but they were obviously blocking the street. O'Donnell/ Well, this is a tool that we can use against that. Bailey/ Yes, Eleanor? Dilkes/ I think the...what this does that we don't have currently is it takes the intent element out, and that's just for purposes of proof, but I think the behavior that's going to be identified as...is going to be people who are clearly doing it. Bailey/ Ross? You had a...anything about this. Are you supportive or...(mumbled) ahead on this or... Wilburn/ I...I just kind of need to think about this. Along the lines of what Eleanor was getting at, what...there's a combination of things. Yes, it's that in your face, what are you going to do, but there's also situation where there's just some people playing in the street, and sometimes people, that if they don't move out of the way at a rate faster than others, and then there's times it escalates after that, when someone...tries to get them to move or (several talking) Champion/ Used to play in the street all the time. Wilburn/ Well, but that's...that's some of what happens, uh, around town, so...sometimes those escalate, and sometimes there...a back and forth gets going and then sometimes, uh, people will...after having the history of the, being told or being observed, or uh, not moving fast enough, will purposefully stand there and uh, it's that escalation that.. . O'Donnell/ That's...that's the big difference. There's a big difference between, uh, a group of kids standing in the street and moving for a car, and those refusing to move for a car. Wilburn/ Well, it depends on who you ask, because there's a landlord who lives in my neighborhood, um, that feels that the kids should not be playing in the street, at all, and wants to have them out of the street, and you know, there's obviously judgment and This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council special work session meeting of September 10, 2009. September 10, 2009 City Council Page 37 safety in question, that type of thing, but...but that's going to vary in individuals (mumbled) Bailey/ So it seems like there's interest in moving ahead on this, as well. As I mentioned, I'd like to see trails added if we move ahead on this. Um, the same sort of schedule. Hayek/ Will you, uh, will you cut and paste or copy and paste that so (several talking) Bailey/ Okay. Yeah, I (mumbled). Any other...comments about these two items? Dilkes/ One thing to remember on this one, um, penalty...will be...applied to adults, but this is a charge that will go through juvenile court for children. Bailey/ But once again, there's discretion. That's...if there's a charge, it could also be a warning that you're in violation. Dilkes/ Oh, sure. Bailey/ Yeah. Right. Dilkes/ But it's not going to be a fine for the... Bailey/ Right. Dilkes/ ...a juvenile, it's going to be a fine for an adult. Correial Oh, it's not a fine for juveniles. Dilkes/ Because it's going to go through...it's going to be treated as a delinquent act (both talking) Correia/ Okay. Bailey/ Okay. Anything else on these two items? O'Donnell/ No. Bailey/ Thank you very much. We'll see all of you on Monday night. Have a good weekend. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council special work session meeting of September 10, 2009.