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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1997-04-01 TranscriptionApril 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 1 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session 2:00 PM Council: Nov, Baker, Kubby, Lehman, Norton, Thornberry, Vanderhoef. Staff. Atkins, Helling, Woito, Karr, Winklehake, Widmer. Others: Professor David Baldus Tapes: 97-54, all; Review Draft of PCRB 97-54 S1 Nov/ Review of the draft of the PCRB and I am going to take the opportunity to say this. I really think this draft is too wordy. Woito/ I agree. Nov/ I prefer the first one.... Woito/ I agree. Much of it can be relegated to by-laws or procedures. Nov/ Woito/ Are we ready? I would like to start. Nov/ Do we want this as a discussion outline? Is that what we are saying here? Woito/ Yes, I would like to use it. It is being typed up now and you can have it in written form very shortly. Nov/ Okay, go ahead. Woito/ The materials that you should be working with are the materials dated March 13 with my explanatory memo and my draft.... March 14 is comments from Professor Baldus.... then he sent another shorter one letter comment. Those are the things that we need to be dealing with today. Nov/ I don't know..... Norton/ You are dealing with the general part first and then going onto the ordinance? Woito/ What I want to cover... make sure that people have the right materials before we start. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WS04197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 2 Norton/ But there were two sets on the 13th..... draft ordinance... bunch of background. Nov/ They were stuck together at one point. Woito/ You should also a spreadsheet comparing other cities.... explanatory memo from me dated March 13.... and an ordinance that is 21 pages long dated March 13.... We have so much... It is important to have the right stuff.... What I would like to start out with are the things that are not at issue regarding the PCRB Board. The Board has not authority to direct the City Manager or the Police Chief to impose discipline. Does everybody understand that.... only Steve and R. J. have that authority. The Board has no authority to force the Police Chief to change their mind or force the City Manager to change his mind. Kubby/ But they can present information as to why they disagree.... Woito/ Definitely. I would anticipate a lot of communication. How that happens, we need to talk about. Nov/ Woito/ They have no authority to impose their own decision on either R. J. or Steve. So they are advisory and recommendatory in terms of police discipline. It is a civil administrative procedure. It means all we have to do is worry about procedural due process. We don't have to worry about incrimination against the Fifth Amendment, criminal procedures, rules of evidence, none of that. It is not a court of law. Atkins/ Can you just elaborate more on civil due process as opposed to criminal.... comments?.... if it appears to it going to be criminal, the officer doesn't have to- Woito/ That is the last thing on this chart. Thornberry/ They can't, in other words, bring charges? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WSO4197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 3 Woito/ Right. A citizen could go to the County Attorney and request that charges be filed, which they can do anytime. Atkins/ Under what you just showed us, the Board has the authority to suggest, recommend, investigate virtually pretty much anything you can do in an advisory capacity. But they cannot impose. Woito/ Correct. Atkins/ Okay. Woito/ And they can't force either of you to change your mind. Atkins/ Woito/ Any matters taken up by the Board which are civil, they will be informal. There is no strict rules of evidence, no rights of cross examination. If you eventually decide to give the Board a fair amount of authority, they can adopt their own by-laws and decide all of that. Baker/ Linda, what do you mean by no rights of cross examination? Woito/ There is a difference in terms of civil procedural due process. Civil procedural due process which is what we have to satisfy here is it is an informal administrative process. You are entitled to notice and an opportunity to appear and be heard. It doesn't mean that- For example, procedural due process kicks in when you have a dispute over your utility bill. You have a right to an informal hearing and to question the city employee as to the accuracy of your bill. That would be an informal administrative due process hearing. It is a check for accuracy. The right of cross examination is a rule that is generally in a court of law or in depositions covered under rules of civil and criminal procedure. They are court proceedings. Kubby/ But you can still ask questions back and forth to continue clarifying and questioning and answer. Woito/ Question and answer is different. Cross examination for lawyers and this board would be a term of art. Baker/ As long as there is a separate definition of cross examination other than question and answer? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WS04197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 4 Woito/ Right. If there is criminal activity, either perceived or suspected, the PCRB can stop. It can be stayed, as we call if in the law. Or stopped, in other words, just stopped where it is in the process and retain the status quo of the investigation until the prosecution is completed and the continue on. Or if the police officer waives their Fifth Amendment right not to incriminate themselves, it could proceed. Norton/ Who decides if criminal activity is present? Woito/ I do and the police, in conjunction with the Police Chief and the County Attorney. Nov/ Isn't it required that if you suspect criminal activity, you automatically give it to the County Attorney and the PCRB quits? Woito/ Well, let me give you an example. In this case, the Shaw case, perhaps Officer Gillaspie might have waived his right under the Fifth Amendment and gone ahead and participated in a PCRB investigation. But ordinarily they would have the right to stop is right there because they could not be examined by the PCRB nor could they be examined by the Police Chief. Nov/ I don't believe it should be up to the individual officer to waive those rights. I think it should be our policy that if we suspect there is a criminal action here, it is automatically given the County Attorney for future investigation. Woito/ That is the way the ordinance is written now. But there is another way to do it if you wanted the investigation to keep moving down the track. Norton/ Yes, we do. Nov/ I think this should not be an investigation of criminal activity. Kubby/ It wouldn't be. Woito/ You have two alternatives. These obviously are still at issue. Okay. Dennis, will you note that this is still at issue. Norton/ I don't understand because I can imagine when you want the investigation to proceed because of the timeliness of events and people that are available. So there is some urgency of proceeding if there is a possible way for it to do so. Thornberry/ If it is suspected criminal activity, I think that the PCRB then would give that to... County Attorney or turn it over to DCI or somebody else. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WS04197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page S Norton/ But I thought Linda was suggesting that there might be a way for the person to waive certain rights and the investigation to proceed. Woito/ Which would be unlikely. If you will recall in this case, the internal investigation did not go forward until after Pat White made his decision and then the deposition that was given by Gillaspie to the DCI was released. Atkins/ No, other way around, Linda. We did the internal before- Woito/ Then Gillaspie waived his Fifth Amendment right and cooperated which is precisely what I have described here. Norton/ That is what I am suggesting we might want to do, yeah. Vanderhoef/ You are still suggesting then, Dee, that the PCRB go forward rather than the DCI and the Attorney's office. Norton/ The PCRB go ahead with this investigation as long as it is permitted. Kubby/ It would be parallel as what happened in the Shaw case. Vanderhoef/ I am not interested in that. Woito/ That means the Shaw investigation at R. J.'s end of it would have been even more delayed. Kubby/ And if there is a trail, even incredibly delayed. Woito/ It could be delayed for a long time. Thornberry/ Woito/ The police officer has the right, if there is a specter of criminal activity hanging over that officer, they have a right not to cooperate and not to answer any questions. Norton/ But the police investigation could also be hung up by the same logic. Nov/ In this case, there was no PCRB. Kubby/ Because we didn't have this policy. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WSO4197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 6 Nov/ Because there were DCI already pending and there were internal investigations already pending. This would not have gone to the PCRB. Baker/ One of the things... PCRB... able to initiate, without a citizen complaint, an investigation if there is an issue of significant import..... Norton/ And we want that to proceed as least as rapidly as the internal investigation that presumable the police would be carrying on. Woito/ This is obviously still at issue. His last paragraph is at issue but we can move on. Thornberry/ ... The DCI was involved immediately.... Woito/ Can we move on because once you have decided some of the other issues of how much power you want to give the PCRB, maybe that will flow later? Nov/ .... Do they investigation without having had a complaint and under what circumstances are they allowed to do this? Well, we haven't come to that yet..... Woito/ I have a big question mark here and Dennis has written it down.... That is a question mark. I am not graphically inclined.... I want to confirm these issues. I think we have agreed on these things. So, let me go through this. (Refers to Issues/Confirm handout.) The Police Chief has authority over complaints. In the information from Professor Baldus, he talked about the difference between a legal duty and a legal right. Over here you have a legal duty which means that the Police Chief is- this is mandatory for him to carry out these things. He doesn't have any discretion. That is a legal duty. Okay. He would receive a copy of all citizen complaints. He must do that. He has no choice. Thornberry/ From whom? If it is his duty to receive it, somebody has got to give it. Woito/ Right, we will get there. The police must investigate all citizen complaints. The Police Chief must review and he does his own report. Nov/ Which is what he does now..... Woito/ We are trying to mesh these two things together. That is my job right now. Nov/ This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WS04197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 7 Woito/ I can anticipate when we get to the Board, I think much of this is going to stay. Atkins/ You said much of it is to stay. If it is a legal duty, you couldn't get rid of it, if you wanted to. Woito/ It will be up to them. Kubby/ In terms of how the ordinance is written. Woito/ This is the way I have it written now. Norton/ Linda..... You say the Chief does his own report. There is an internal investigation... it is submitted to the Chief and he puts comments on it. That is what you mean by him doing his report. He is not doing another investigation? Woito/ No.... If I wanted that, I would say he would do an independent. No, he reviews what his officers, what his department has done. If he wants the officers to go back and do all of that work, then he directs them. Winklehake/ One thing that happens now, I will get a report, an internal affairs report, and I will read that and if I have questions, what I have done in the past, I will get the officer and say okay, you said this, let's go and show me where this took place..... tell me where you were, show me what you did and that is the kind of thing I will do on follow-up. Norton/ Then do you have to put some kind of written endorsement on top of that report or comment on top of there, the internal report? Winklehake/ I may send it back and say you said something here but that doesn't seem to be consistent. Tell me why you came to that conclusion. Norton/ Winklehake/ Woito/ This is what we are saying you want him to do now. Vanderhoef/ What you are talking about, that will go into the annual report.... we will have these written down. Woito/ I am not getting into that detail. The annual report, yes. You have already agreed on that. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WS04197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 8 Vanderhoef/ Presently, we don't necessarily have this written material put into a report. Woito/ No. Vanderhoef/ Woito/ What I am trying to focus on is the process of the PCRB and the Police Chief process. The annual report, I think you have already directed that in our procedures changes. Vanderhoef/ Woito/ And the form in which that report is, we haven't decided and that is going to depend on my ultimate research with open records and open meetings and all of that which I am still working on. Once I get an idea of where you want to go with the Board, I can better figure out how much concern I have to worry about with open records and open meetings. Yes, this will be used for the annual report. Thornberry/ On #2, "Police investigate all citizen complaints." I understand that. The Chief reviews and does own report..... Woito/ These are legal duties. He can delegate it.... The Chief makes his own findings on the report and he sends the report to the Board, the citizen, the City Manager, and the police officer. The Review Board then makes a comment, this is the way it is written. No, this is not the way it is written now. This is Professor Baldus's suggestion. Norton/ The Board gets this report, yeah. Atkins/ The Board gets his report. Norton/ Sure, the Board should get his report. Nov/ Does he review the Board report? Norton/ The Board wants to see all reports..... Thornberry/ Most of the complaints will be given to the Police Department from the PCRB..... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WS04197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 9 Woito/ We haven't really figured out yet to that extent. At some point there will have to be comment back and forth between the Police Chief and the Board. Norton/ But you are trying to make provision for the fact that every internal report with the Chief's comments there on, somehow will get to the PCRB so they can kind of see what is happening, right? Woito/ I think this is a question. Nov/ This says the Police Chief will receive a Board report and review it and comment. There is nothing wrong with that.... Woito/ Yeah, actually that is the way it is written now, isn't it, Dennis? Dennis Mitchell/ Right especially with supplemental jurisdiction. Any time they accept an appeal, they are going to look at the Chief's report. Woito/ I don't know that I have a consensus on this. Thornberry/ Getting to the point where we are sending a thank you note for a thank you note. Woito/ No. These are substantive reviews. I am only using short words to review a very complicated process, like review and report. Nov/ You say here it is legal duty to review the Boards report and I think that is reasonable..... Kubby/ How else will the Chief know if he agrees or disagrees with the Boards findings? Norton/ That the PCRB routinely reviews all internal reports. Right, surely. Thornberry/ Then the Review Board reports back? Norton/ They make a comment back to the Chief. Woito/ I think the Chief wants their input.... Thornberry/ Woito/ And if he disagrees, they can ultimately appeal to the City Manager. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WSO4197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 10 Norton/ Baker/ Where in this process is the determination of discipline made?.... Woito/ As far as I am concerned in terms of my investigation into open and closed records, the Police Chief will only make -impose the discipline after he has exchanged his report with the Board, the Board has exchanged their report with the Chief, which ever way you do it, then Steve gets his shot at it and then the decision is ultimately made by Steve in terms of discipline and the discipline is imposed - Baker/ My question is, in those reports near the end, is there a suggested discipline or tentative discipline that is also commented upon? Woito/ Yes. That is included in my ordinance. Thornberry/ I don't know if I agree with that. Woito/ I know. That is why I am not getting into any detail yet. I am trying to confirm whether you agree that these are obligatory things that you want the Police Chief to do at least up to here. Thornberry/ Woito/ I don't think you have answered these two questions yet. Norton/ Seems to me when the Chief takes the internal report, reviews it, studies it, maybe gets more information. But when he is done digesting it, he then has to propose some sanctions, if indicated. Right? Those seem to me to be part of the report that he submits. Woito/ This one includes discipline. Norton/ Otherwise the Board is going to have a hard time understanding whether that fits the situation in their judgment. Woito/ Baker/ R. J., do you have any problem with that? Winklehake/ As far as making suggestions for discipline, no. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WS04197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 11 Baker/ Before you are actually imposing the discipline, there is what you have in mind. Winklehake/ We do that now. I already deal with that with Legal, the City Manager's office and sometimes with personnel issues that become involved. I always talk to those folks.... Baker/ Do you talk about levels of discipline before the police officer involved knows about those possible levels? Winklehake/ Yes. Baker/ How would that be handled in this process? Atkins/ We don't negotiate discipline. Baker/ Atkins/ Up to the point- Woito/ Impose discipline- Kubby/ In the report, R. J. is recommending discipline at that point..... then it goes to the PCRB. The PCRB then comments and says I agree or disagree. Then the Chief can agree or disagree with the PCRB. Baker/ My question then becomes one of confidentiality Woito/ We will worry about that later..... Vanderhoef/ I understand definitely there is a point where the citizen will be notified of the findings in the reports..... I don't think the citizen should be given the report at this point in time when we are still in the exchanging of information between the Board and the Police. Kubby/ That should be the same for the police officer as well at this point. Woito/ Dennis. Norton/ Yes, both of them shouldn't have it until we are done hashing here, officer, take him out.... Woito/ I agree. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WSO4197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 12 Kubby/ Then add those after the comment and before the imposing. Woito/ The discipline imposed is down here..... You have to notify the officer. Thornberry/ #3 after the red line. Woito/ Okay. Norton/ Notify the parties. Winklehake/ There is also a part with labor that you need to notify that officer and give them an opportunity to discuss the issue before you actually tell them what the discipline is. Woito/ Meshed in with this will be the grievance process and then after this stage here of imposing discipline, you will get the Civil Service proceedings which is only a right of the police officer to take advantage of. Only the police officer can go to the Civil Service Commission, sworn police officer, not CSO. Kubby/ And the citizen can ask the PCRB for an appeal at that point. Woito/ To Steve. That is what we need to get to. We haven't gotten that far yet. Kubby/ So, those two red question marks are gone now because the process has changed a little bit? Norton/ I think so. Woito/ Sounds to me as though you want the Police Chief recommendations and report to go to the PCRB rather than vice versa which is - Nov/ In addition to vice versa. We want them to both make reports. Woito/ Dave, can you comment why it is important the Board should get the police report first because I don't really understand it. David Baldus/ I think what is evolving in the conversation is a change in the function of the Board from an appellate body to one that acts in collaboration with the Chief of Police before it makes the initial recommendation of discipline. The original model that was conceived of was that the Chief of Police would make a recommendation. Then the citizen would have an opportunity to appeal that with This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WS04197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 13 the Board and the Board would then act upon the information it had and respond to the Chief of Police. It seems to me that you collapsed that out. That stage of the process has been dropped out of this in terms of the conversations I hear right now. That is the difference. It is not fatal. It could be done that way, certainly. Thornberry/ I don't think the Board should be involved in the disciplinary process. Baldus/ The Board has to be able to make a recommendation on discipline or it would have not function whatsoever. Thornberry/ Nov/ If the Board had been the receiver of the first complaint and then turned it over to the internal investigators, I think there would have to be some exchange back and forth.... Baldus/ There is a difference between formally allowing the citizen to get the decision of the Chief and making an independent decision as to whether they want to appeal that to the Board. That is the stage in this process it seems to me that is being blurred by what I hear going on up here and that is fine if you don't want to have any appeal by the citizen from the Chief's initial recommendation. Kubby/ Doesn't it matter what form of investigation the PCRB decides upon. So there may be three different tracks that we are talking about. Woito/ Yes, there could be, yes. Norton/ I would very much like to get those clarified..... Woito/ Maybe we should move on to the Board and leave this for mow. You have to come back to these. Norton/ I like dealing with appeals. Nov/ If you are dealing with appeals... do you then have confidentiality? Woito/ I will answer that after I get a pretty firm grip of what authority you want to give the Board.... (Refers to handout, "Key Issues/PCRB Authority Over Complaints"). The mandatory duties to investigate for the Board are not in your present draft of ordinance. It is something that has been discussed. However, if you want to give the Board that authority, if you give the Board a legal duty to do all of these This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WS04197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 14 things, to receive and investigate all complaints, that means they have no discretion. They have to take whatever complaints come in and they have to follow through...... In terms of the process... it is going to be the complaint, it is going to be the investigation - Thornberry/ No matter how frivolous. Norton/ They can't do that. Lehman/ I don't think you can do that. Norton/ You can't do all of that. Woito/ Then we can jump over here and we will say we will give them discretion over certain complaints for where someone dies or serious- Kubby/ How does then somebody who comes in with a complaint that they feel is legitimate, and if the PCRB says no, we believe this is frivolous, where do they have to go with their concern about police services? They are stuck. Woito/ They still have the Police Chief. Kubby/ And without an investigation, how do you know?..... I think one of the big wonderful things- I thought the first one under mandatory was written in here, at least in your beginning comments. All complaints need to be investigated so that police officers don't have to make that discretionary decision about what is frivolous or not. Woito/ The way I have written it, the Police Department and the Police Chief have to take all complaints, regardless of whether someone thinks they are frivolous, and they have to all be investigated. This category here would be the Board would be obligated. Kubby/ Here is where my confusion comes in with this process, when we talked about generalized police... I thought we had decided that people can go to the Police Department to make a complaint. But they can also go to the PCRB to make the complaint. Woito/ So there is a dual system? Kubby/ This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WSO4197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 15 Woito/ Okay, I didn't hear four people want a dual system. Kubby/ That was the policy statement that we had made earlier. Norton/ The police were going to investigate all complaints, period.... Then the results of that study, in that same process, the Board would have the option to parallel investigate some of those. Kubby/ I am talking about receiving the complaint. Woito/ We can have it received any place. Nov/ Woito/ In my explanatory memo of principles, it is a neutral location, neutral person that takes the complaint. Nov/ The power to investigate is their choice.... Norton/ What we are missing here, Linda, is the original step. The first step of informal settlement.... Woito/ You have to tell me the Board has to look at it. The Board is obligated and has the authority to jump in to settle cases. Nov/ I see four heads nod. Kubby/ I have a question.... I need to have that answered.... Who is receiving the complaint? In the way the ordinance is written now- Woito/ The police. No, it is the central registry. And the central registry I see as an arm of the PCRB. But that is a limited power right now, Karen. It is only to receive and to keep track of. You have the- Right now in the ordinance draft I have given you, the Board has not independent authority to either direct an investigation or do an investigation unless they decide to exercise that power which is a discretionary power. Now if you want them to have the authority to investigate all of them and decide okay, we are going to send some of these to the police and some we will do ourselves, I need to know that. Kubby/ Can someone go to the Police Department to make the complaint? Woito/ You can have the complaints received wherever you want. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WS04197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 16 Vanderhoef/ I thought it was written that if the citizen chose to make the compliant at the Police Department, that was fine. However, they would be notified that there would be a neutral place where they could go. Kubby/ That was my understanding of what our policy discussion was. But is that the way the ordinance is written? Woito/ It will be at a neutral location. It will be a central registry and I would envision that to be the responsibility of the PCRB. Thornberry/ You have to go to the PCRB then..... Woito/ You are going to go to someone's office up over there.... Thornberry/ Can you go to the Police Department and say R. J., I have got a problem? Kubby/ The answer is no with the way the ordinance is currently written. Woito/ If you want to continue the current internal affairs procedure as it is, let it go ahead. Baker/ What is wrong with the citizen taking their complaint... neutral complaint, they can go there. If they want to go to the Police Department, they can file it there but the Police Department is obligated to inform the PCRB that they have received this complaint..... Nov/ The forms are available in multiple places and where you fill out the form is not important. Kubby/ It is. Norton/ What happens is important after that. Vanderhoef/ Woito/ Do I understand? All of you agree that it is mandatory that the PCRB in some fashion, no matter where it is or how it is done, is obligated to receive that complaint. Kubby/ Yes and that the Police Department is one of those locations. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WSO4197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 17 Woito/ Okay. We all have agreement. Dennis, do you have that? Norton/ They should see the complaint. Vanderhoef/ Woito/ Okay, so you have agreed that this is a mandatory duty of the Board, right? Thornberry/ Yes, to receive the complaint. Baker/ No matter how filed, they end up- Woito/ Okay. Nov/ We are also saying it is discretionary on who investigates. Norton/ Wait a minute, we are not sure about - Thornberry/ No matter how frivolous. Norton/ You are talking right about a big investigation. I think we have to distinguish informal settlement, mediation and formal investigation. Woito/ My concern.... is when someone starts screening, someone can always claim and it depends on who is going to do the screening. Do you want the Board to do the screening? Because someone can always say, you may think it is frivolous, you may think it is non -meritorious, but to me it is serious. Norton/ ...I am just saying that someone has to make an arrangement to sit down with the various interested parties and see if we can discuss this thing without going further. Woito/ Okay, but that will be a screening process. Kubby/ I think we should deal with all complaints..... Norton/ I think the PCRB should take the initiative with the people involved to see if we can discuss this thing.... Woito/ So the PCRB would have an obligation to handle an informal resolution if possible? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WS04197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 18 Lehman/ .... here are so many .... most of the things are settled literally on the spot..... The Board should receive that, know the compliant has been filed but it has been resolved. I don't see this Board becoming involved in complaints like that.... Norton/ Thornberry/ Thornberry/ You will take Holly Berkowitz and do all of her complaints? Nov/ We really have to go somewhere where you say parking tickets aren't included. Thornberry/ Then where do you stop? There are some that are so frivolous..... Nov/ There are other avenues to appeal a parking ticket. Kubby/ Woito/ Are there four of you that want an informal resolution as a mandatory obligation of the Board at this stage? Norton/ Working with the police, I do. Vanderhoef/ No. Thornberry/ No. Lehman/ No. Baker/ No. Woito/ Okay. I have in the ordinance that mediation is available at any time. Kubby/ Okay, so what we have decided so far is that the Board shall receive all complaints even if they are filed with the Police Department. Woito/ Regardless of location, it is their responsibility to receive them. Kubby/ Then it is forwarded to the Police Department who then makes the determination about whether it goes back to the PCRB or not unless they give- Woito/ No, let's go to the next stage. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WS04197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 19 Nov/ Karen, please clarify what you are talking about here. Kubby/ What happens to frivolous complaints after the PCRB has forwarded them- What happens to complaints that are of a minor nature after the PCRB has received the complaint, no matter where the intake was taken, and it is forwarded to the Police Department? Woito/ Under your current ordinance draft, they would all be investigated by the Police Department unless you had 5 out of the 7 Board members vote to assume authority to investigate. Now that is only one option..... something to discuss. Kubby/ So the Board would then get a report about that minor complaint, the resolution and what happened. Norton/ That would be entirely up to the police to negotiate that informal settlement. The PCRB would not be involved. Woito/ Under the current draft, the Board would only hear about it if there were an appeal from a dissatisfied citizen or they brought it up on their own motion. Kubby/ The Board would at least see it in an annual report... Woito/ They would see the form of the original complaint. Norton/ Why wouldn't they see the Chiefs report of whatever the incident or complaint was. They got to see the results. Woito/ They could. Norton/ Not just the filings. Woito/ Right. Norton/ Kubby/ They would see it before the annual report. Woito/ Yes. Nov/ That goes back to this page. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WSO4197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 20 Kubby/ I am seeing two different answers. Norton/ I want to be sure... You are leaving the informal resolution entirely to the police. The PCRB will not be involved in the informal resolution. Nov/ Well, they could be if they wanted to. CHANGE TAPE TO REEL 97-54 SIDE 2 Baker/ The complainant could not be happy with the resolution offered by the Police Department. Norton/ Then they are appealing..... Woito/ Are there four of you who want to give mandatory investigatory power over every complaint? Vanderhoef/ No. Lehman/ No. Thornberry/ No. Nov/ No, discretionary. Woito/ You want it to be discretionary, okay. Then you can decide that discretionary, whatever you want. It is either on a 4 to 7 vote, you can narrow it down to what Minnesota does. You know, serious complaints, where someone dies, discrimination, excessive force. That original sort of laundry list. Norton/ Linda, I want it to be mandatory if there is an appeal. Woito/ Okay. Kubby/ The way it is written, there has to be a 5 to 7 vote. Woito/ So you would have it mandatory without the vote? Norton/ On the case of appeal. Kubby/ But it is written now that they have to vote. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WS04197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 21 Vanderhoef/ They could accept what the Chief wrote and stop... or they could go further and ask for more information. Woito/ Are there four of you who want to allow the appeal regardless of the Board voting? The police officer, they have done their investigation, the Police Chief has made his recommendation, he forwards it to the Board, the citizen gets a copy of it and says boy, do I disagree, I am appealing to the Board. Norton/ I think the Board has to look at those. Woito/ Okay, then we get rid of the vote. Council/ (All saying no). Norton/ If they appeal. Woito/ That is called a right of appeal. That means the Board takes it whether they want it or not. Council/ (No). Lehman/ Simple majority. Thornberry/ If the citizen is not happy with the report that they get, I think the reason for the PCRB is to resolve this problem and I think .... That the Board should have to take it if it is appealed by the citizen complainant or on a vote if they get the report back from the Police Department and they- Woito/ I see three heads shaking. Naomi- Vanderhoef/ Woito/ Kubby/ If they wanted more investigation, they would have to vote to do more investigation on the appeal..... Vanderhoef/ What my concern is... there will be some frivolous..... In taking it, can you just take it, read the report and say I agree and send it on? Woito/ Yes. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WS04197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 22 Vanderhoef/ Baker/ And if a simple majority want to investigate or do something else - Norton/ Take all appeals but only a simple majority for further investigation. Woito/ Okay. So I hear that once the Police Department has done an investigation, the citizen is not satisfied, they have a right of appeal to the Board without any vote by the Board. The Board has to take it. Now how detailed that is, the Board can wrestle with themselves. Lehman/ The Board has already read the Chief's opinion before they get an appeal. Now what we are saying is the citizen has the right to appeal, so they are going to read it again. Then we are going to say by a simple majority we are going to have further investigation or not. The Board has reviewed that prior to the citizen ever getting it. Council/ (All talking). Woito/ I think I hear consensus on this. Norton/ ... what if they say there are three more questions we need? Woito/ That is something you need to decide. Nov/ We are getting into the rules of procedure and I really don't think that belongs in the ordinance. Norton/ Thornberry/ Baker/ We have to approve their by-laws anyway. Woito/ Yeah, you do. Nov/ You approve the by-laws and procedures. Woito/ Which means they can do it on the record, order the Police Department to re -open the investigation. Kubby/ It could be mediation. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WS04197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 23 Woito/ Mediation anytime. So this could be complicated or simple. And if they are not satisfied at this stage, you still want them to be able to appeal to Steve? Nov/ I think not..... allow them to go to the State Ombudsman..... Baker/ Don't they have the right to go to Steve now anyway. Lehman/ Woito/ Do you want an appeal of right from the Board appeal? Kubby/ Yeah, I say keep it local. Norton/ Oh, God. Thornberry/ Lehman/ ..... I have always got the right as a citizen to walk into Steve's office and say Steve, I think this smells. Now that is an appeal. Woito/ That is true. Lehman/ And every citizen has that right. Atkins/ That happens now. Lehman/ That is no change. Kubby/ ...... makes it more accessible to have it in the ordinance. Lehman/ I don't think it is necessary. Baker/ Kubby/ Somewhere it should be outlined. Norton/ Does the officer have this appeal right, too?.... Woito/ Not until they are disciplined and that is under state law. Well, they have appeal rights under the grievance procedure and the Union contract. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WS04197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 24 Norton/ ...... Does the Board take a look at the officer? Nov/ No, he goes to Civil Service Board. Kubby/ Not if it is just a matter of a discussion or an apology..... Woito/ This is not intended as a police officer's appeal rights. Nov/ ...Dave... you put in officer.... Is this a two way thing or just for the citizen? Kubby/ ...we didn't have before any appeal for the citizen..... Woito/ The officer has appeal rights under the grievance procedure and state law. Vanderhoef/ What things can they appeal? Woito/ Discipline, discharge, change in their job status..... Baker/ A letter in their file.... Can they appeal that? Woito/ A written reprimand, yes. Baker/ Helling/ A written reprimand can be grieved. I am not sure that under Civil Service law that a written reprimand is appealable.... I think it has to be a suspension or a demotion. Atkins/ Baker/ Explain the distinction, appeal and grievance. Helling/ A grievance would be by labor contract and it ultimately could go to an arbitrator. That is an entirely different forum.... Baker/ Nov/ Kubby/ Nov/ That kind of process... there is a review committee for parking tickets. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WSO4197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 25 Kubby/ I am trying to get at the level of complaint and not at the specific.... officer's attitude I thought was slightly rude, not abusive..... tone of voice. Can someone go through this process we just clarified. Norton/ Yes. Woito/ And the way it is written right now, the original investigation would be done by the Police Department. Norton/ Woito/ I think you have answered my question on what authority. Original authority you want to give the Board to investigate. It is going to be limited, I take it. And it is going to require a vote of 4 out of 7. Norton/ Simple majority. Kubby/ Simple. Norton/ To take up additional investigation, original jurisdiction. Nov/ Majority of the members.... Norton/ Woito/ That would be 4 out of 7 would require triggering their authority to either ask R. J. to help investigate or go out and hire their own investigator. Thornberry/ I like 5 out of 7. Vanderhoef/ I like 5 out of 7. Lehman/ R.J. gets it anyway. Woito/ Well, that is a question. If you want the PCRB to investigate, do you want both to go along parallel? R. J. is going to continue and the PCRB? Lehman/ At that point, I think it has to be parallel. You have to do an internal on everyone. Woito/ Okay. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WS04197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 26 Lehman/ If we are not happy or we think we need our own, we can vote by a 4 to 7 vote to do our own as well. Woito/ I think I see four for that. Nov/ I am not sure I hear four of us. Baker/ As soon as they receive a complaint, the PCRB could, on a 4 to 7 vote, before the police finish their investigation, to initiate their own investigation. Woito/ That is the question. Nov/ That is what I think I am hearing agreement on. I think most people are saying that the police should have the first option to investigate and the Board then has the discretion, if they don't agree with the police investigation. Council/ (All talking). Norton/ I am not agreeing with you, Naomi Nov/ I still don't hear four that agree with you, Dee. Baker/ Anytime the PCRB wants to initiate an investigation, they should do it. Norton/ Absolutely. Council/ (All talking). Vanderhoef/ Parallel was the thing that we were trying to avoid. Woito/ ...I talked to Berkley Assistant City Attorney and their parallel isn't even parallel because... State law requires an imposition of discipline be carried out within 60 days of the incident and the citizen review board is so slow to move that they have no say whatsoever in discipline and everything is open. So the discipline has already been carried out and so it is dual but the police investigation and the discipline has already been imposed and the board is way out. Lehman/ Isn't that because they require themselves to investigate every complaint?.... Woito/ Yes and they are slow. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WSO4197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 27 Lehman/ This board will have the discretion of investigating those they felt were worthy of investigation, not investigating the others. So we should not be nearly as slow. Nov/ Baker/ It may be something that the Board feels so strongly about on the basis of the complaint, that they initiate an investigation while the Police Department doing their investigation.... very rare but they ought to have the right to do it.... Kubby/ I kind of outlined what I think are five options that the PCRB has and how to run an investigation. And maybe there is more in here.... To know what all the choices are and then we can say yea or nay to these choices.... Woito/ ...whatever. Vanderhoef/ I hate to jump- Kubby/ It is the same thing. Woito/ Sounds to me there are four people who want- In each case, the Police Chief is mandated to investigate but in certain cases where the Board votes, you want the Board to be able to step in at anytime, including the very get -go. Council/ (Yes). Woito/ I hear four for that. Okay. Baker/ Vanderhoef/ ....if you are doing parallel, you are going to be doing duplicating right at the same time.... Norton/ I thought she said cooperate. Vanderhoef/ Baker/ Nov/ Vanderhoef/ Doing two absolute parallel - This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WS04197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 28 Baker/ That is when you need to get the input of the PCRB itself on how they want to do that separate investigation. Kubby/ And it may only happen in the case of a very severe complaint. Norton/ Assuming... PCRB member was going to be involved in our internal... This says.... they are talking about the Board could decide to work cooperatively with the Police Department.... Vanderhoef/ When you hire your own investigator... that doesn't sound to me like you are doing any- Kubby/ Vanderhoef/ That option I can go with if you are doing it collaboratively.... Why do we say then we are going to give them a complete and absolute investigative power that is a dual line? Kubby/ Because the complaint may be of the nature that is so important to public confidence..... Baker/ Circumstances will dictate that. Vanderhoef/ Anytime you take a statement, though, that is under oath, why would we be taking two statements? Kubby/ Because the question might be different. Thornberry/ It should be a collaborative effort. Kubby/ It may be that there is one original statement taken and the external investigator reads that and does another interview with that person.... Thornberry/ Then it doesn't need to be simultaneous..... Woito/ That is how I drafted it. Council/ (All talking). Kubby/ The way I understood your concurrent original investigation is that it happens at the same time, there may be some collaboration, there may be some separateness. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 W SO4197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 29 Norton/ That is what concurrent means, I take it. Vanderhoef/ Let's write it concurrent. Norton/ She called it concurrent original jurisdiction which means parallel basically because they are going on at the same point in time but they don't need to be wholly independent. I agree.... Nov/ Hiring an investigator is quite different from saying I want you to ask the following questions. We are dealing with two different issues here. Woito/ Dee... I can't quite envision a PCRB member sitting in or following around one of the police investigators.... I don't see that working well. Norton/ What did you mean by cooperation then? Woito/ Directing them to do things, they do it, they bring it back and they say you have missed a bunch of stuff and then maybe joining together and saying okay, let's both go interview them because I think you have completely missed the boat. Norton/ Okay, that is fine, that is what I am talking about. Thornberry/ Woito/ The way I have written it, they can cooperate. Norton/ Baker/ Woito/ I would think you would want to leave it up to the Board whether they would want to hire investigators or they want to use one of their own people to participate in this joint investigation. Baker/ We ought to give them that discretion at any time and let them use it. Lehman/ Baker/ Norton/ We have got the appeal thing. This is just the original concurrent that would be pretty rare. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WS04197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 30 Woito/ R. J. has a puzzled look on his face. Nov/ I think we all have a puzzled look. Kubby/ Can we make a list of possible ways of the PCR's involved in investigation? That would help me out a lot..... Woito/ A list of how they could be involved? Kubby/ Like I have five ways that the PCRB is involved in investigations that I got from reading the ordinance a couple of times and it is really difficult the way we are talking about it to see them all at once. Woito/ Okay. Nov/ You were going through the list, finish. Kubby/ The first one is that the Police Department does the internal investigation and it is just reviewed by the PCRB and they concur. Woito/ Or they comment or whatever. That means they don't get involved in the original investigation at all. Kubby/ Correct. So the first choice is that the PCRB reviews the internal investigation and concurs. Woito/ Well, they comment. Do you want to give them authority to say go back and re- do? Kubby/ That is another choice that they review the internal investigation and they say they want additional internal investigations. They request additional internal investigation.... They have to vote to do this. Baker/ They have to be fairly clear about what they would like to see happen.... Woito/ In my current draft they would request additional information for an appeal or on their own motion. Kubby/ Important... request additional internal investigation. The next choice is that they request additional external investigation. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WS04197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 31 Woito/ What does that mean? Kubby/ An independent investigation. Woito/ They would hire their own person. If I were you- Kubby/ What I am trying to do is outline what I see as the choices and we can mark them off..... Woito/ It is going to make a difference in money. Nov/ But we are not going to talk about money at the moment. Make a list. Norton/ You had commented in your report about an external additional investigator.... Woito/ Right now you only have this possibility by the Board in the current ordinance on appeal or on the Board's own motion. Kubby/ The important part is that it is an additional internal investigation. Thornberry/ The Board didn't like what they saw from the internal investigation of the Police Department and they want more information. Kubby/ Woito/ The Board directs the Police Department to go out and do x, y, and z. Norton/ Get another interview. Woito/ Okay, Nov/ Woito/ The way it is written right now, the Board has this authority if they choose to use it, on their own motion. Plus you have just decided the Board has this right.... if the citizen appeals the Chief's decision. Nov/ Let's just move through Karen's list. Woito/ Okay. Nov/ Let's not make decisions at the moment. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WS04197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 32 Woito/ Okay. Kubby/ So another option is that there is an internal investigation by the ICPD with a concurrent external investigation by the PCRB and that is what we were starting to agree or disagree with, which I believe what your concurrent original investigative authority was.... Vanderhoef/ What do you say about internal investigation? Woito/ Telling R. J. to go do it over. Kubby/ Or do some additional. Vanderhoef/ But you started this #2 talking about internal investigation. Kubby/ All of these choices that 1 have come up with, have the Iowa city Police Department doing internal investigation. This last one is a concurrent external. Norton/ We are just assuming that that latter is pretty hard to deal with. Kubby/ I am using the word external meaning outside of the Police Department. Should I be using the word independent? Norton/ Independent investigation, yeah. Kubby/ So if the Iowa City Police Department does an internal investigation and the PCRB votes to do a concurrent independent investigation, which is what we were talking about a few minutes ago. Woito/ So, this would involve the police doing an investigation? Norton/ I can't read your writing from here. Woito/ This would involve police investigation and this would involve police investigation? Kubby/ All of them would involve the Iowa City Police Department doing an internal investigation. Woito/ This is one would also (refers to chart). This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WS04197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 33 Norton/ Nov/ I don't see how the external investigation involves the police. Kubby/ The Police Department... we want the Police Department to be self -policing through the internal investigation.... The Police Department always does an internal investigation. Woito/ I think there is four of you that agrees on that. Nov/ External is the one I don't understand. Kubby/ That is what... concurrent original investigative authority... parallel independent investigation..... cooperation... separation. Thornberry/ The PCRB does an investigation separately, independent at the same time? Norton/ Yes. Thornberry/ I don't agree with that. Kubby/ There is some cooperation within that.... not totally duplicative. Thornberry/ Kubby/ Norton/ In the proposal she had in front of us, she talked about concurrent original jurisdiction which meant two investigations going on at the same time.... Thornberry/ I don't agree with. Kubby/ The last choice.... this choice of a PCRB member being part of the internal investigation which you were saying may not be feasible but it is something that we had agreed to in our policy discussions earlier. I think we need to conscientiously say yea or nay to these and whatever other choices that are out there..... These are things that I picked up from the ordinance that are laid out or that are from our previous policy discussions that we said we wanted to have happen. Thornberry/ ....may or must. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WSO4197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 34 Kubby/ We can get to that after we decide which format of investigation we want this body to have the authority to do. Are there other choices? So you have got they look at the internal and they comment on it.... They look at the internal, they want some additional things done by the Police Department. They ask for that via a vote or not and that happens. They want additional independent investigation after they have reviewed the internal. Or they do concurrent independent. And the last one is that a member of the PCRB is involved in the internal investigation. Woito/ Right, okay. Those are options. Baker/ You don't mean these as ascending order, do you? Kubby/ No.... Woito/ You may agree to all or any of them. Baker/ ... PCRB member being involved ...early... I thought we had agreed to it. Kubby/ It is not in the ordinance. Baker/ Norton/ Woito/ I just asked you guys back here and I asked for four votes and I didn't get them back here. Norton/ The timing is not necessarily right.... We had no problem dealing with appeals. When an appeal came, the internal investigation had proceeded, we have the documents and everybody can look at that and review and ask for additional... we had no problem with that.... The only problem we are having is what to do with this original thing and you said 5 to 7 and go at it independently. We have said just mix a PCRB member in with the internal. I don't know whether any of those are realistic. And Dave, I think, you already suggested also that they ought to proceed This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WS04197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 35 at the same time. Otherwise data would be getting cold and people would be disappearing..... Nov/ Who is going to disappear? Norton/ ...track might get cold, as they say. Nov/ If the people who are complaining aren't available, it is obviously not worth investigating. Norton/ I mean people involved in the incident. Thornberry/ I don't think that is a real big problem.... Norton/ Are you suggesting you would have nothing like original jurisdiction then?.... Always proceed after the internal?... Kubby/ We had four votes for that: Larry, Ernie, Karen, and Dee. Woito/ And Dean agreed on the right of appeal. Kubby/ So we said yes to the first two on that list and yes to the concurrent. Lehman/ Karen, I am not so sure there may be a middle ground here. If we received a complaint that the Board felt was serious enough that they would like to have a member of their Board participate in the internal investigation- I think that would be an unusual circumstance when you ask a Board member to participate..... I am not so sure that might be a better procedure than a concurrent investigation. If after the internal investigation with the Boardmember participating, the Board disagreed, then I think that might be the proper time to appeal and have the independent investigation. Kubby/ I disagree because this is a review board. They are not an investigative board and I would rather have the concurrent independent investigation that the Board then reviews versus having them be part of the investigation. Thornberry/ Then why are you advocating a concurrent investigation? Kubby/ Because they would hire someone else to do it and then they would review that but they wouldn't be directly involved in that. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WS04197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 36 Baker/.- that person at any time can go back to the full Board and say there is more to be done here..... It would satisfy the value of review to a great extent, getting the PCRB involved..... into an investigation early. Kubby/ ...I don't want to lose the concurrent..... Baker/ Kubby/ The reason I like the concurrent independent investigation under certain circumstances, is that it increases the independence of this review board.... Thornberry/ Woito/ Can we hold this right for now and pick up on the idea of using however the Board decides? If they want to choose to use a panel member, would that decision be made on the 4 to 7 vote? Kubby/ Yes. Norton/ Not 4 to 7, 4 of 7. Woito/ So it would be sort of a hybrid of this, only at the beginning. Right? Lehman/ If you want additional information, you can do that at anytime after you get R. J.'s report. Woito/ On a 4 to 7 vote. Thornberry/ It is a police citizen review board. It is not an investigative board. It is a review board.... Woito/ Sounds like there are at least 5 or 6, 5 votes for having the Board be able to vote to participate in the police investigation. Am I right? at any time. Right? Kubby/ Yeah, but that is not in exclusion of this other issue. Woito/ And that was a hybrid that Ernie just mentioned and Larry mentioned and you guys had mentioned. Norton/ It may be sticky but we ought to try that. Woito/ Am I hearing that right, Dennis? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WS04197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 37 Nov/ I am hearing 4 on that one. I am not sure we all understand what the concurrent independent means. Council/ (All talking). Woito/ We left this alone for now. Council/ (All talking). Kubby/ We are deciding one, not in the exclusion of the other. The other is still open for discussion because there were four people a couple of minutes ago for concurrent independent investigation. Thornberry/ Norton/ Vanderhoef/ And we did more talking and I don't think you have got four now. Thornberry/ Nov/ I think the four are vacillating. It was a 3/4 this way. It was a 4/3 the other way and it is going back and fourth. Kubby/ Maybe we need to go on to some other issues. Nov Correct. Let's go on to another issue. Woito/ We are going to leave concurrent independent for now. Kubby/ For continued discussion. Woito/ And it is a hybrid. Okay. I hear people agreeing that on a 4 to 7 vote, the board will interpose themselves into the investigation either as a panel member, participating, cooperating, directing at any time. Baker/ Woito/ Working in cooperation with. Baker/ Again, they can work out the details of what that means. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WS04197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 38 Kubby/ A question that I have is because we want this Board to be independent, we want them to oversee. Over time there becomes a merging. If the Board works too closely.... Woito/ I don't recommend that panel. Kubby/ I am hesitant because over time, they become too merged in function instead of being the oversight board. I want them to be a little more separate. Woito/ These are citizens that are volunteering their time. When I thought this through, I didn't want to overburden the panel members by being involved in every complaint that came their way. That was part of my thinking. Norton/ ... If I go back to try to have a concurrent independent one, I get into the problems... doesn't seem to make a lot sense either.... I can only understand the appeal process now.... Kubby/ The way that Linda has the concurrent original investigative authority is only only certain circumstances can they vote to do that. It can't be just on any complaint.... If we want to put limitation on that concurrent independent investigation, we can to make sure it is only the most extreme cases. Nov/ At some point here we had a list and it said excessive force, inappropriate language, inappropriate attitude, harassment of a citizen, discrimination on provision of services, failed to provide police protection. So we could use one of those or two of those and say only under those circumstances would there be an allowed concurrent independent investigation. Woito/ Right. Norton/ ...details of it just boggle the mind a little bit... Council/ (All talking). Thornberry/ I am looking at the PCRB as a court of appeals.... If the citizen does not like the determination made by the Police Department, they can appeal back to the PCRB who automatically knows what is going on.... They can't start their independent concurrent investigation until they get the final report from the Police Department, that is when ... the PCRB kicks in.... What if the complainant agrees with what the Police Department came down with.... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WS04197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 39 Kubby/ What if the complainant feels pressured to say that they feel satisfied..... Thornberry/ Kubby/ Thornberry/ .... You are going to feel some pressure when you fill out a complaint because you are going to be getting an answer back.... Woito/ Can I pose a hypothetical? In the instance of the Eric Shaw death, if you had had this Board in place, would you want it to be able to do its own investigation rather than wait for the police to finish? Thornberry/ No. Kubby/ Yeah. Norton/ I guess I don't know. Council/ (All talking). Baker/ We are dealing with three different words here: review, appeal, investigate. Nov/ We are.... Baker/ ... it is a review board which doesn't preclude you being part of the process before you get a decision from the Police Department.... Thornberry/ I don't think it should be a police citizen investigation board. Kubby/ You don't think they should have any independent investigative powers? Thornberry/ Didn't say that. Not concurrently. Kubby/ So you would agree with the external supplemental independent investigation? Norton/ That we could do. Thornberry/ If the complainant did not agree and they have a place to go to appeal. They go to the appeal board, to review board. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WSO4197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 40 Kubby/ What I am suggesting is that appeal or not, if the PCRB gets the report back from the Police Chief and votes 4 out of 7 we want an independent supplemental investigation, you would agree to that? Thornberry/ Yes. Norton/ Yes. Kubby/ That is option #4 on that list that I created.... Nov/ I think people were rejecting only the concurrence. Woito/ They. He is willing to go on only with supplemental. Kubby/ Norton/ Thornberry/ After the original investigation. Norton/ I kind of agree. Thornberry/ They may agree with the investigation. Lehman/ I agree. Thornberry/ Kubby/ There may be a situation, like the death of Eric Shaw, where the community needs that oversight. Thornberry/ The whole community did not need it. Baker/ Karen... would you be comfortable saying restricting it to very narrow circumstances where that is appropriate? Kubby/ Yes. Woito/ You just have to figure out what those circumstances are or let the Board decide. Nov/ Are there four people here who agree that independent concurrent would apply under circumstance x?.... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WSO4197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 41 Norton/ I don't understand what a concurrent independent investigation precisely is. I understand it later..... after you have seen the other report..... Woito/ It is limited. Nov/ Limited if at all because I am not sure there was an agreement that it should happen. Kubby/ Are there four people who could support it under certain limitations? ..... Nov/ Let's go to those specific limitations later. Woito/ You are in agreement on the supplemental. Council/ (Yes). Woito/ And this would be supplemental to a police investigation and it will happen after the police investigation, after the Police Chief's report but it - Thornberry/ And after a vote. FLIP CHART: Hybrid - 4/7 interject into investigation Board Investigation Review Only/Comment - Police Request Additional - Police Internal External Investigation - Police Concurrent Independent - Police - Limited if at all. PCRB Member/Police Police Chief Report Board CHANGE TAPE TO REEL 97-55 SIDE I This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WS04197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 42 FLIP CHART: Supplemental After Police Investigation Vote 4/7 External Internal/Investigation Woito/ Okay and you want a vote of 4 out of 7? Council/ (Yes). Woito/ Okay. And they have the authority to order an external independent investigation. Thornberry/ May. Kubby/ Or internal. Woito/ We are just giving them authority. It doesn't mean they have to use it. And then they can go internal and request the assistance of the Police Department for additional investigation. Kubby/ Okay, that is clear. Norton/ That is pretty good, that one. Woito/ You really made progress. Nov/ Norton/ Or they could go just from the record. Thornberry/ Yes. Woito/ I think that is great. Thornberry/ Norton/ This is all supplemental and I don't think anybody has any problem with that. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WS04197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 43 Nov/ This would happen if they read the report from the Police Department and said I cannot agree with this, I still have more questions and then they have the choices to make about whether they are going to extend the internal investigation or hire somebody else or whatever. Okay. Woito/ Okay. Kubby/ So what we have agreed to so far is that if a complaint is made to the PCRB, no matter where the complaint is actually filed, including the Police Department, that complaints are dealt with internally in all instances and that reports go to the PCRB for comment. Woito/ Yes. Kubby/ If the Board, if there is an appeal, the Board must hear it. Woito/ Correct. Kubby/ And they can either just look at that internal investigation and comment and agree or disagree. Of they can ask for internal supplemental or external supplemental. Woito/ Right. Thornberry/ Norton/ They can do any of those things on appeal or on a vote if they want to. Woito/ Okay, you have gotten this far which is great. Nov/ Now do we want to give them the authority to hold hearings? Thornberry/ Compel witnesses and hold hearings. Norton/ Sure, they can hold hearings. Kubby/ Yeah. Thornberry/ What if the witness, the little old lady in the second floor window.... doesn't want to come down. She is compelled to come down. Norton/ I don't know that you have subpoena power. I guess you do, do you? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WS04197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 44 Woito/ You can. Thornberry/ I think that is going a little too far. Kubby/ It is part of the independence.... Norton/ Thornberry/ And put that little old lady in jail until - Nov/ We aren't talking about a criminal case here. Thornberry/ Woito/ If we are going to give this Board subpoena power, we will give them limited subpoena power. You cannot take it to court to enforce it. In fact some jurisdictions require you to go to court to get a subpoena but I don't know if there is anything in Iowa law that permits that. Council/ (All talking). Vanderhoef/ So if there were no penalty for not showing up, how do you enforce it? Woito/ Good question. Norton/ Mitchell/ I think we can subpoena people.... probably have to go to District Court to try and enforce the subpoena but I think that is a policy decision. Kubby/ How important was that person's information... assess that Thornberry/ Norton/ Thornberry/ Up to a judge? You are going to go to a judge from the PCRB to get a little old lady to testify? Norton/ How else do you get it done. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WSO4197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 45 Woito/ Can we move onto hearings? Nov/ I think holding hearings is a given. I think compel witnesses is what we are talking about.... Kubby/ Do people agree they should be able to hold hearings? Council/ (All talking). Woito/ Oh, good, I thought that would be a hard one. Kubby/ That could also mean generalized hearings..... not about a specific case. Norton/ Just like Congress holds hearings on child abuse laws. Kubby/ Both specific and general. Woito/ Those are very different titles. Vanderhoef/ ...talking about a general information hearing... versus about a specific case. Woito/ ... I would anticipate to be concerning complaints or on the Boards own motion when they see something outrageous and nobody comes forward. Atkins/ Does what you decided so far mean has discipline been imposed? Woito/ No. Atkins/ So the Chief has recommended and intends to proceed with discipline, then all of this kicks in which puts all of that on hold?..... Woito/ It depends on what track you are on. No, no. If R. J. is always going to be doing an independent investigation, yes, his discipline- Unless you want to go the Berkley route and bifurcate them. Atkins/ I am saying that the Chief of Police has, as an individual, that he has made a decision to discipline that person. And that report then is sent to the PCRB. Woito/ That is why most of the jurisdictions imposed time lines in terms of when. The PCRB has to act within a certain time after a citizen complains because you can't have an officer out here dangling for a year. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WS04197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 46 Kubby/ A citizen or an officer or the Department. Atkins/ I guess my concern is that I think the Department will probably move fairly quickly. Woito/ Yes, much faster than the Board will. Atkins/ Okay, as long as we understand that. Norton/ The supplemental should have a tight time limit.... Woito/ We will have figure that out. And some of the jurisdictions have time frames... 120 days, 60 days, 90 days. etc. Lehman/ Linda, if we have a p.h. relative to a specific complaint- Woito/ I am not talking yet about public. These hearings here I am talking will be adjudicative in terms of they will be deciding facts of did misconduct occur or didn't it. Lehman/ What I am concerned about are personnel matters..... Woito/ I wanted to find out if you wanted the Board to be able to hold hearings so that I can flesh out my legal opinion on how much this has to be closed and what can be open and what can be public. Thornberry/ Those hearings are closed hearing, aren't they? Woito/ That is a question I am still wrestling with. Norton/ Linda.... Vanderhoef/ Thornberry/ Atkins/ Discipline has been decided but not imposed. Council/ Norton/ Linda, we need to make clear about two kinds of hearing because we are going to get into- There are hearings of a generalized sort. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WS04197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 47 Woito/ Those are easy.... I assume you would want them to hold p.h.s.... Norton/ But these are on a particular case. Woito/ Where you are really talking about the nitty gritty of a complaint against an individual officer, misconduct... it must be closed. Thornberry/ Woito/ My question is do you want the Board to be able to hold hearings or do you want them to only be limited to doing paper reviews? Kubby/ Hearings. Norton/ Hearings. Vanderhoef/ How does this work with Civil Service then? Woito/ It is totally independent. This is all before Civil Service. Civil Service won't happen until discipline is imposed way down here. Thornberry/ Woito/ The police officer's rights don't kick in until that officer is disciplined. Police officer's rights under Civil Service don't kick in. Although... I could make the argument that if it takes a year and I have an onus of a discipline hanging over me, you know, I could go right to the Civil Service Commission. Norton/ I don't see how you could avoid trying to hold hearings.... Woito/ And remember, the hearings will be informal. They are not going to be court of law or anything.... I think they will likely have to be closed. Council/ (All talking). Kubby/ .... She won't investigate it unless we say we think it is a good option. Baker/ Is the assumption that the hearings are only going to be held in those cases where there is some sort of pending discipline against the officer? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WSO4197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 48 Nov/ They can be held whenever the PCRB will disagree with the report of the Police Department..... Woito/ If there is a complaint and the person is dissatisfied, you have all agreed that that person has a right of appeal. Now, do you want to give that person a hearing, closed probably? Kubby/ To be able to talk to the PCRB about why they want the appeal, to explain themselves? You bet. Baker/ ... the ability to go to the Board. Norton/ Take testimony. Woito/ In terms of figuring this out legally, I need to know that. Norton/ Why don't you say take testimony instead of hold hearings. Isn't that what you are going to be doing? Woito/ Testimony means it has to be sworn. I think the Board should decide whether they want it sworn or not. Nov/ And they should decide also if they want it oral or in writing. Woito/ Right. Lehman/ I think there is more to it than just personnel. There may be a complainant who is not satisfied with the complaint and has a real legitimate beef. They think that the decision is wrong. They don't want to go to a public hearing.... Woito/ I agree. Norton/ Probably closed, right. Woito/ And if the Chief recommends against discipline, the citizen would go to the Board and would have a right, an opportunity to be heard. How is that? Nov/ Yes. Vanderhoef/ I have a question... something about being sworn or not, whether it is a testimony or whether it is a conversation or whatever. What is your thinking on being sworn? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WSO4197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 49 Woito/ I think that should be up to the Board to decide. Vanderhoef/ On your intake form... you are putting a statement in there that this is all to the best of my knowledge.... that has some sort of credence to truthfulness. Woito/ That is different from raising your hand and swearing to tell the truth. Vanderhoef/ But the same thing I would expect to happen at the hearings. Kubby/ I would agree with you, Dee. Norton/ That is why I called it testimony. Woito/ Do you want it all sworn? Thornberry/ Woito/ Swearing is under oath. Thornberry/ I understand that.... I felt that officer was not being courteous to me. Vanderhoef/ So he was making a judgment. Thornberry/ It could be truthful. Vanderhoef/ Norton/ I still go for testimony. Council/ Woito/ I think that is the Board's decision, don't you? Nov/ Let that be a Board decision. I have one more concern I would like you to investigate. Is there a way to have a complainant sign some kind of promise to keep this confidential. We need to say while this is still pending, we don't want them to go to the press and say the Chief recommended discipline x and I don't agree with it. Woito/ What I am tending toward, so far, is leaning toward the Minnesota approach which the entire process is confidential and the only things that are public until the end This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WS04197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 50 are the fact that a complaint has been filed, informing the complainant of the stages. Most of it is confidential until you get to the end. Nov/ One of the comments in here... said it is confidential until the decision has been made to impose discipline, that decision has the right of appeal and I would like it to remain confidential through all of this appeal process if it is legal to do it that way. Woito/ Under the Board, the Board's appeal? Nov/ Yes. Council/ (All talking). Woito/ The Civil Service appeal is a matter of state law. It is all public. Kubby/ Why shouldn't that be parallel with the police officer's appeal is open to the public..... Woito/ The Civil Service appeal, they hold the hearings here. The McMartin hearings were here, open to the public. It was sworn testimony. Civil Service appeals of police officers are public. Kubby/ So why not it be parallel? Nov/ Why then can you say that these hearings should be closed only because this is not yet imposed?... Woito/ I am not telling you anything yet. I have not firmed up my opinion on this whole staged process because I wasn't sure if I had agreement from four of you on all of these various stages as to whether I needed to be even worried about confidentiality in hearings. Whether you even wanted to have them. I think you want to hold hearings. Nov/ Please investigate all the confidentiality issues. Woito/ I will. Baker/... You said that it is public record when a complaint is made? Woito/ I am looking at how other people have done this and I am also talking with Ivan Webber. He is an attorney with the Ken Haynie firm and he knows First Amendment, he knows open meetings, he knows public records law and he can This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WS04197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 51 bring a perspective that I need which is the overall policies perspective versus the confidentiality of the employee, the police officer, their reputation and the citizens coming forward. Baker/ ... I want to get clear eventually what are the rights of people who are- Complaints filed against an officer, you know, six weeks later it is completely cleared up but the newspaper is going to come down here every day and say what is the latest complaint and start having a little column.... Let's avoid that. Thornberry/ On holding hearings. The complainant comes in, the officer comes in, you got the Board and if they are open, I can see that complainant calling up all of their friends and relatives and having them sitting out there and clapping and booing... I don't think that is necessary.... I think the hearings need to be closed. Woito/ I think they probably will be. So you all agree on the hearings. Some of the details of the written findings is still open to question in terms of confidentiality and open records and all of that stuff. Kubby/ Do we need to think about taking the complainant and police officer off of this list until after the comment by the Police Chief as we did in the other way around, to be consistent? Woito/ Yes. Nov/ Put the written findings- Kubby/ After. Nov/ On the legal side, left side column. Thornberry/ We haven't gotten real far on that legal duties side? Or have we?..... Woito/ There are two instances where they will hold hearings. Where the complainant appeals and requests a hearing. And where they vote on their own motion to become involved in egregious or outrageous set of facts. Thornberry/ Once the internal investigation is completed. Woito/ And also the supplemental. Norton/ What do you mean, also the supplemental? It is the only so far. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WS04197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 52 Woito/ That is right. Norton/ All we have is supplemental. Either appeal or initiated. Woito/ That is right. We still have a question mark on limited concurrent. Norton/ Woito/ Do you want to take a break? Do you want to wrestle with the concurrent today? Nov/ I would like to take a break. Woito/ [Council Break] Kubby/ Concurrent, is that what you mean. Nov/ I think that is what we are going to do here. Woito/ I was just going to kind of re -cap before we move on. Nov/ Okay, go ahead. Woito/ You are giving the Board mandatory power. They must receive all citizen complaints. There will be a central registry somewhere.... After the police investigation, you are going to give the Board on a 4/7 vote, the authority.... (mic problem) You have given the Board the mandatory power to receive all complaints.... Where and when they are received will be detail that we don't need to go into. They must receive all citizen complaints, they being the Board. You have also give the power to the Board that after the police investigation is conducted of an alleged misconduct for a citizen complaint, on a 4-7 vote, you have given the Board authority to either order the police to do additional investigation or to hire their own investigator or to join in and do cooperatively some additional investigation. Nov/ ... For the record, we are saying 4 out of 7, not 4 to 7 vote. There are 7 people in total. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WS04197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 53 Woito/ 4 out of 7 members on the Board. Nov/ Okay. Thank you. R. J had a question about an independent or external investigator and I would like to get that one in the record. Winklehake/ I am not sure which one you are talking about. Nov/ The one that I heard when you and Dennis and I were talking. Winklehake/ And I think that was resolved with what he was talking about is the answer I got. Nov/ I want the question, please. Winklehake/ The question that I asked before was that you could have the possibility of three different investigations going on at one time. You could have a criminal, internal affairs, as well as an external from the PCRB. And if you had that, one of the problems you run into... was what happens with the information that that independent investigation might get. How would that impact possible criminal investigation and Dennis, the way he explained it to me, I think answered that question. Woito/ It cannot be used for the criminal at all. It is unconstitutional. Norton/ That is not relevant or germane now because we are talking about supplementary investigative work here. Woito/ It couldn't be used for the criminal investigation at all. Winklehake/ I am aware of that. Woito/ Unless the officer agreed to it. Kubby/ Some of the questions may be of an entirely different nature.... Woito/ And after the police investigation, you have given the Board a mandatory authority to hear all citizen appeals when they are dissatisfied with the Police Chief's report. Right? Norton/ Not only to hear them but to look into them. Lehman/ No, no, hear them. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WS04197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 54 Kubby/ Then they have to vote to look into them. Lehman/ Right. Woito/ No, not for citizen appeals. Kubby/ If they hear the appeal and they feel because of the appeal that there needs to be supplemental investigation, then it takes the vote. Woito/ Yes. Thornberry/ Norton/ I understand. They have to vote to pursue an additional investigation but they could certainly, on their own, look at the record and talk and discuss and decide and rule on- Woito/ This is all after the police have investigated. Atkins/ Can I have a point of clarification? After the police investigation by a 4 to 7- Woito/ 4 out of 7. Atkins/ After a majority vote, the Board can ask the Chief, thereby the Department, for additional information? Woito/ Yes. No. Atkins/ What I am looking for is that they received an investigative report, various recommendations, and they want further information. That would seem to be a fairly routine request in my mind, that I need an elaboration, I need an expansion, whatever the circumstances might be. My concern- Woito/ You only want a 4 to 7 vote for additional external? Atkins/ My concern is that I did not believe you would want them to rush into their own investigation without first exhausting going to the Police Department and saying I would like to have this additional information. If they are not completely satisfied, then they have the authority to initiate their own external investigation by way of their own employee or staff. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WSO4197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 55 Kubby/ Atkins/ It is their choice. I am saying because they may not be satisfied because of first blush with some information or the report, that does not lead them immediately into going out and hiring someone else. I am okay. Norton/ I am still unclear about when the vote has to be taken..... So the vote would only come on seeking an external investigation? Woito/ No, I am trying to re -cap what happens, what authority you have given the Board after the police have done their investigation. Kubby/ Supplemental has to be voted on whether it is continued internal clarification or if it is independent. Norton/ That is not mine. I thought they had to take all appeals- Woito/ They do, they have to take all appeals. Kubby/ If they want additional information after hearing the appeal. Norton/ What does that mean, additional information? Kubby/ Some questions weren't asked they want answered. Norton/ Does that take a vote to get those? Woito/ That is what you have to decide. Kubby/ Norton/ I think they only vote if they want to hire an extra person. Atkins/ I think the vote... more dramatic.... I think if you were going to actually... commitment of policy to something with a consequence and an expenditure of money, I think you should have some recorded vote that authorizes that. Kubby/ On the other hand... want something additional that takes staff time, there has to be four of us.... Atkins/ Good point.... I understand what you are saying. I just think a vote is something of really some consequence.... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WS04197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 56 Norton/ Fine line.... Vanderhoef/ A lot of them won't need additional information. Norton/ So if you want to go beyond just the paper record, you want a vote? Atkins/ We want to staff that Board satisfactorily for them, get them the information they need.... Norton/ Basically what you are saying if you want to go beyond the record the presently is in front of you, you got to have a vote.... I think that is fine, let's do it..... Atkins/ I am trying to make a free flow of information..... Kubby/ Why can't it be an informal nod of the head. It doesn't have to be an aye, aye, aye, aye. But it has to be on the record that there was a majority, Woito/ That will be in their by-laws. Okay. Kubby/ Unless you are spending money, then it has to be a recall vote. Council/ (All talking). Winklehake/ Can you go back to second or third page.... We are talking about Chief makes findings/reports to the Board and the City Manager and then the Board can review those comments and make comments back and then we make notification to the officer and the citizen and discipline would be imposed. Okay? Woito/ Assuming no appeal occurs. Winklehake/ Okay, at that point we have imposed a discipline. Now, the citizen decides that that discipline is not sufficient. They don't like that decision. Woito/ I don't think you would have imposed the discipline yet. You are recommending it. You are still exchanging reports between you and the Board. Winklehake/ Go back to the Board though because we have already given comments and review to the Board and they have given me information or given it back to the City Manager their comments on it. If there is no disagreement at that point, discipline is going to be imposed. I need to have a pre -determination hearing with the officer involved. So I am going to be telling them what I am going to do with This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WS04197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 57 them. They say okay, fine, you said three days, I have to take three days. Okay. The citizen says no, that is not sufficient, I want the guy fired. They can appeal? Woito/ To the Board. Winklehake/ To the Board? Woito/ Yes. Winklehake/ What is the Board going to do? Thornberry/ Go back to page 1. Winklehake/ Because we have already imposed the discipline. Woito/ You can't imposed the discipline. You can only inform the Board and the citizen of the proposed discipline. Winklehake/ So any time line that we now have goes on forever. Woito/ No, it can't go on forever. We have - Norton/ Woito/ Other jurisdictions impose 120 days. Norton/ Thornberry/ Go back to page 1. Woito/ Is it in the contract, Dale? No. Kubby/ So we could wait to impose discipline until the appeal time has run out. Woito/ I think we should.... Thornberry/ The citizen review board does not have any authority to direct the City Manager or the Police Chief to impose discipline. Just because they don't like the discipline that the Police Chief has said.... tough. Kubby/ The citizen might convince the PCRB to change their mind in terms of agreeing or disagreeing with the Chief. The PCRB can try to persuade but they cannot impose. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WS04197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 58 Thornberry/ The Chief has got to have the responsibility over his own people without the PCRB..... Kubby/ It could go the other direction.... Thornberry/ That is his call. Lehman/ They have the ability to advise and recommend. He has no responsibility to accept the advice or the recommendation. That is pretty clear. Woito/ The appeal has to be done in a timely fashion. You got to give them a certain time in which this whole appeal process is finished, so you can impose discipline in a timely manner.... Norton/ It is realistic.... 30/30/30. Woito/ No, that is not realistic at all. Norton/ The police have 30 days for theirs now. Woito/ Well, that is unrealistic. I suggest 90. R. J. and I, we need to talk Kubby/ ...or you ask for a reason for extension. Winklehake/ The internal affairs person that does the internal affairs, if they cannot complete it in 30 days, they can ask for additional time.... tell me why.... I denied it the last time.... Norton/ Woito/ They should have to appeal within 5 or 10 days and then the Board has to act within 60 days or 30 days or something. Winklehake/ My concern is this. I am going to tell the citizen, after discussion with the Board and we have comments back and forth, I decide that I want to discipline at 3 days. I talk to Steve about it, he agrees with that. We now send something out. We still haven't had a pre -determination hearing. Woito/ You haven't done anything. Winklehake/ We certainly made up out mind what we are going to do. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WSO4197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 59 Woito/ No, it is a proposal. It is a proposed discipline that you are informing the Board about. Winklehake/ When the citizen gets notified that this is the proposed discipline, they now can appeal to the Board who has already had this discussion back and forth with comments as to what the proposed discipline is. Kubby/ The citizen then gets an opportunity to say this is why. Woito/ And the citizen has the right to go to the Board and has an opportunity to be heard by the Board. Winklehake/ At the Labor end of it- Woito/ They can be grieving when they are disciplined. They can file a grievance once discipline is imposed. Winklehake/ What I am concerned is having some sort of a discipline proposal out there without the officer being able to give an answer to that first with a pre- determination hearing. I don't know how that will fit in. Woito/ It will have to occur after you finally or Steve finally makes a decision on what discipline should be imposed after the Board hears the appeal. And you are going to have to give the Board a short time within which to do this appeal. Kubby/ So we need to figure out how that pre -determination fits into that whole process out of fairness to the officer. Winkelhake/ That is a concern I have. Where does that come into play because there is no way to get around that. Thornberry/ Winklehake/ Woito/ Thornberry/ Lehman/ This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WSO4197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 60 Council/ (All talking) Winklehake/ The thing that I am concerned with is that we are having a discussion... making a written report to the Board. They are giving us a written comment back as to what they think the discipline should be or make a recommendation for it anyway. Woito/ After the appeal. Winklehake/ No, before. We haven't made any discipline yet. We haven't even tried to..... I look at this report and I say ten days should be the discipline. That report is given the police citizen review board.... They then say okay.... I get that back. Then based upon their report back, some decision should be made. This is going to be the recommended discipline. I then talk with Steve about it, possibly with Legal.... Then we notify the citizen that this is the proposed discipline but we don't notify the officer? Woito/ No. The proposed discipline of the Board is what - Nov/ I think you need to notify the citizen and the officer at the same time. Winklehake/ If I notify.... I got to have a pre -determination hearing, the officer. Helling/ I think you have to have a process.... If you are going to allow the individual complainant to appeal the amount of discipline as opposed to the determination of the Board, I think you have to have a very deliberate process to notify... You are telling an officer and sharing that with a citizen..... In terms of morale and the way it may affect them, maybe I would suggest you think about that a little bit.... Vanderhoef/ Are you saying during this entire process that that employee is going to be leave? Helling/ No, they are just going to be wondering what is going to happen. Nov/ What if we said the appeal must be filed within five days? Woito/ I would make it a very short time. Nov/ Baker/ One question.... once you have said I am proposing three days... Board says okay. Then the citizen appeals... How can you then go back and say we are on record as This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WS04197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 61 proposing three but on second thought we want to do five now?..... labor problems.... Second question. In the report to the PCRB, is it workable, feasible, for the Chief to say in circumstances like this..., here is a range of discipline that is appropriate. Comment on the range of discipline.... Then the Chief will make a decision but he hasn't spelled out a specific discipline... The PCRB had input that way.... Winklehake/... seems to make more sense to me.... I am concerned if we say three days and a citizen now has an opportunity to appeal that without ever having a pre- determination hearing with the officer. That is a concern that I have.... Baker/ My concern is that one you have sort of tied you hands.... after you have made a recommendation. And if the PCRB buys into the range of discipline and comment on that range, is that a satisfactory review for them. Helling/ The question I would ask is do they have all the information because the range may be 5 to 10 days and then the history of that particular officer's behavior may determination whether you would go with the 10 or the 5.... Baker/ Vanderhoef/ Right up front we are saying this is an advisory board and only the Police Chief in consultation with the manager will imposed discipline and the more times that we talk about allowing an appeal by the complainant about the discipline, the more the listen in the community is going to be the PCRB is setting the discipline.... Thornberry/ Vanderhoef/ I don't think this is something that we can allow appeal on. Kubby/ I think it matters how it is written.... educational information.... how we create the perception of how this is happening. Vanderhoef/ I am thinking newspaper headlines... discipline is all I am talking about right now.... concerned about us even having the PCRB be involved, allowing the complainant to challenge the amount of discipline. That is where I have a problem. Woito/ It would have to be... confidential. Baker/ If we had it set up where the PCRB would concur with a range of possible disciplinary action.... after they make that recommendation... Chief makes the This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WSO4197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 62 formal with in that range... appeal process goes back to the City Manager and doesn't go back to the PCRB. Norton/ ... I was thinking the Board.... didn't get into the nitty gritty.... Woito/ You can give the right of appeal of the complainant to the City Manager. Atkins/ They always have that right. Nov/ They have that now. Lehman/ Everybody has that. Kubby/ Because it is a citizen's body, it is more than one person. It will be seen as more independent.... Council/ (All talking). Baker/ CHANGE TAPE TO 97-55 SIDE 2 Baker/ Woito/ The citizen only gets one bite at the apple. They only get one appeal. Baker/ Once the PCRB buys into and concurs with the range of discipline, then why shouldn't the appeal then go to another body, the City Manager. Kubby/ I think we should think about this more. Lehman/ I think the recommendation on discipline that will be presented to the review board will be a discipline that has been approved by the Chief and the City Manager.... The review board looks at it and we think this is probably fair and they report back and then the citizen comes in and complains later. Now the City Manager has already approved it. So has the Police Chief. Baker/ We are talking about the process of appeal now.... Kubby/ Ernie is saying it has already gone through Steve.... or the Manager, This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WS04197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 63 Lehman/ The important thing is that we recognize improper behavior by police officers.... He is going to be disciplined if his behavior was improper.... Important thing is we recognize misbehavior... misconduct.... that this officer has not performed the way he should have and he is going to be disciplined. The amount of discipline may not be nearly as important.... Woito/ Take out recommendations on discipline. Take that entirely out of what the Board gets. Lehman/ I can see R. J.'s point. Vanderhoef/ ....appeal is only on the for or against but not on to the amount of discipline. Kubby/ I would want to think about that. Vanderhoef/ Helling/ Suggest... think about... What happens if the Chief and the Board concur. The Chief recommends a certain discipline. The citizen then comes in and appeals that, that is changed and then the officer goes to the Civil Service Commission. They have the authority to affirm or reverse or modify. You may be creating a situation where the Civil Service Commission will have a pretty strong tug and pull and to go with the first recommendation rather than the second and what happens to the citizen in terms of what is their feeling if they win out before the PCRB and then the Civil Service Commission reverses.... Those are all kinds of things that will have an affect. Council/ (All talking). Baker/ I tend to think that the appeal should not go back to the PCRB.... on discipline. Norton/ I am finding this part of it very tough... I would guess a fair number of appeals from the complainant may very well have to do with the sanction.... Vanderhoef/ ...still going to go back to the Chief, City Manager and the Civil Service. Norton/ Vanderhoef/ ....doesn't make any sense to lead a complainant .... confidentiality.... mitigating the differences in the amount of discipline, then that always has to stay sealed.... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WSO4197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 64 Kubby/ One advantage, I think, of having a Board look at appeals about discipline from a complainant, is that because the officer has a place to go to appeal the fact and the level of discipline... the complainant does not have that option to even try to persuade versus impose. They don't have any place to go..... Lehman/ I don't think the complainant in many cases has any idea how discipline is determined. Thornberry/ .... I may ask a complainant what would satisfy them..... That is my decision to make.... That is my determination.... Kubby/ Difference... We are a public institution.... It is creating this oversight... a citizen to be able to come to a public body to try to get the recourse that they are looking for. Thornberry/ ....you could have three people with the same incident and they would all feel differently.... And I don't believe that it should be up to the complainant to say.... have much weight.... Kubby/ We are assuming that the appeals are always going to be about discipline. It may be about other issues. Thornberry/ I don't think that the complainant need to have any input into the severity of the reprimand. Kubby/ The officer does.... right of appeal... Why not create a parallel opportunity for the citizen. Lehman/ I disagree... I would rather see us exclude discipline from the review and if the Board feels that the discipline was excessive or was not enough, they should communicate that to the Chief.... Vanderhoef/ I agree. Nov/ If you want the citizen to have an avenue of appeal, you refer to the state ombudsman.... One of the reasons we have set this up is to provide an avenue of appeal. Thornberry/ They can still go to Steve and say I don't agree.... Norton/ ...the situation in the case we just had before us... We don't have much knowledge about what would be appropriate sanctions one way or another... focus This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WSO4197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 65 on misbehavior... did it happen... make a finding on those dimensions. The nature of punishment is a very complicated matter.... person's history.... very complicated to say what is appropriate. Vanderhoef/ And a lot of confidentiality in it. Woito/ Do you all agree that there is an appeal right but now maybe we are going to limit the scope of the appeal? Vanderhoef/ Yes. Baker/ Those are two different issues. Appeal right and the scope of the appeal. Do they have the right to appeal? Kubby/ Yes. Woito/ You all decided at about 2:30 that the answer was yes. Thornberry/ Baker/ How do they express that and what sort of expectation do they have that their opinion will shape the final discipline? Thornberry/ I don't think it should. Baker/ We disagree.... Norton/ Kubby/ Citizens are not ignorant. Council/ (All talking). Lehman/ When it comes to discipline, many of them probably are. Baker/ I am talking about making the process work. Norton/ Nov/ It should go somewhere. Baker/ It should not have to go to the state. It should go somewhere locally. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WSO4197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 66 Kubby/ Baker/ ... The problem is Steve has already brought into the recommendation early.... Woito/ Take him out of that. Baker/ Steps out of final approval.... Norton/ Why doesn't Steve wait until he hears the- Woito/ That is how I have the draft done. The appeal would be from the Board to Steve. Nov/ If he sanctifies this, he is perceives as somebody who agrees with the Police Chief. Of course he agrees with the Police Chief.... Council/ (All talking). Woito/ In my current draft, the Police Chief makes a recommendation, it goes to the Board. If the citizen disagrees with that, the citizen appeals to Steve. That is the end of it. Baker/ He hasn't said in this process that I agree with R. J..... Lehman/ Nov/ I don't see us solving this. I have ten minutes to five.... council time... get out at five. We are closing this today. We will get back to it. Kubby/ ...get another time for the next conversation. FLIP CHART: Board - Powers Received Complaints After Police Investigation 4/7 vote - Investigate/External [Supplemental] This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WS04197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 67 Citizen Appeal 4/7 Vote/ Additional/ External and/or Internal FLIP CHART: (Modified old page) Citizen Appeal -On Record -Re-open appeal to C. Mgr. *-Excluding discipline (process now) Council/ (Discussion re: meeting schedule) Nov/ ..... April 8, 4:00 to 6:00 PM..... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WS04197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 68 Council Time 97-55 S2 1. Lehman/ ... Payroll contributions., bring that subject up again at a formal meeting. Kubby/ So we need to clarify who can make that motion, Nov/ ... we can do it by concurrence. We don't need a motion..... Council/ Nov/ We can do it by concurrence.... There is also a way to bring it back by concurrence without a formal vote... if there are four people who agree with Ernie's question and agree to discuss it again, we can do it. Kubby/ Linda, do you agree with that? To bring back payroll deduction issues, that we just need a concurrence.... Woito/ Yeah, it will work. Nov/ If there are four people who will concur with Ernie's suggestion. Woito/ It is in the rules of Woito and Naomi.... You don't need to be hung up on Robert's Rules. If four of you want to decide it, then you can put it on, Nov/ .... I would go along with Ernie. Are there others. Kubby/ Baker/ Mitchell/ Our current policy is that we can do it for United Way but nobody else. I think we either need to say nobody can do it or adopt another policy. Nov/ We didn't adopt a policy. That is our problem. We can do it for no one. Mitchell/ That is fine. I think we need to clarify that because the way it is right now, it is just United Way. Kubby/ I had understood Linda to say in our last formal meeting that because our current policy is unconstitutional, because it only let's United Way in, that if we voted no on the policy before us, that that would mean we would have no policy..... and that meant no payroll deduction. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WS04197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 69 Woito/ Correct. Kubby/ Norton/ Do we have four votes to reconsider? Nov/ We are not voting. We can agree with Ernie to bring it up again. Baker/ Let's not bring it back. Nov/ Both you and Ernie were not here.... Baker/ It is everybody or nobody. Kubby/ We are not discussing the policy. council/ Thornberry/ If we don't talk about it, there are no deductions. Is that correct? Nov/ That is correct. Kubby/ Ernie, Naomi, and Dee Norton.... Baker/ So there are no deductions. Atkins/ We have to inform United Way that we stop all payments. Norton/ United Way will really appreciate this folks..... Woito/ Might as well finish out the year. Nov/ I think you can finish out the year. Kubby/ ...if that was the obligation..... Woito/ I don't think that we can just back out now, Steve. Atkins/ I am trying to maintain my objectivity here, folks..... Council/ This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WSO4197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 70 Atkins/ Your policy position.... there will be no further deductions for charitable organizations? Nov/ That is what it sounds like. I don't hear four people who are willing to discuss it. Vanderhoef/ I want to talk about it, that is okay. Nov/ There are four people who concurred. We have agreed that Ernie has a question and we will talk about it.... put it back on the agenda. Karr/ We will put it back on. Atkins/ The 8th is still a go for a work session at 4:00? Do you want us to feed you? Kubby/ No.... Nov/ We can all manage to bring something to eat. 2. Kubby/ March 13 memo from Linda that has the explanatory points, not the legal language. Can we go through that as part of our process on the 8th to just say are there any questions... concerns?.... Norton/ Kubby/ We can go page by page.... I have some suggestions.... Nov/ Some of those things are up to the Board to decided.... Kubby/ I will make a list. Nov/ We will do it. 3. Woito/ Do you want to send a letter to Tom Miller or do you want to talk about it later? Kubby/ Yes. Baker/ Yes. Nov/ I would think that the letter should say at the beginning, first paragraph, we are aware of the two things that are going on.... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WSO4197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 71 Kubby/ Woito/ Okay. Vanderhoef/ Wait to send a letter until after the Grand Jury. Nov/ ...say we are aware of the Grand Jury... federal investigation... we want to have this released as soon as possible after those things are done. Norton/ That would be all right. Thornberry/ I am not in favor of sending the letter, Kubby/ Yes to Naomi's changes. Nov/ Are there four people who want to send a letter, period? Kubby/ We have four people who want to send a letter with your changes. Nov/ We have already agreed.... Thornberry/ We did not agree. We were talking about it.... draft it and we will see what it looks like.... Nov/ Okay, so now, having seen the draft, we need to know if there are four people who want to send it.... one, two, three, four.... 4. Thornberry/ Where is the meeting tomorrow? Nov/ Tomorrow at the Westfield Inn, 4:00 PM. Karr/ ... meeting starts at 4:00 and you will pre -order and the meal will be served between 5:15 and 5:30 as you are doing the meeting.... I need to get a head count..... Nov/ Oh, I thought we were going to cancel dinner when you said everybody was leaving at 6:00. Karr/ I need a head count.... it is off the menu. Council/ (All talking). This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WS04197 April 1, 1997 Special Council Work Session page 72 Kubby/ So we should come a few minutes early to order as well so we can start the meeting promptly..... Council/ 5. Nov/ There is a ceremony... 8:30 AM ...Saturday... new soccer fields. 6. Nov/ Volunteer Breakfast, April 16, 7:30 AM, Fairgrounds. 7. Nov/ Tree planting at 11:00 at North Ridge on the 16th. 8. Nov/ Free Medical Clinic ribbon cutting and CDBG celebration on April 10, 4:00 to 6:00..... 9. Vanderhoef/ I am looking for someone to go to CVB- Wednesday of next week. Norton/ I can do that. Vanderhoef/ 4:00 PM. Norton/ Okay. Adjourned: 5:10 PM. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of April 1, 1997 WS04197