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HomeMy WebLinkAbout2003-11-24 TranscriptionNovember 24, 2003 Special Council Work Session Page 1 November 24, 2003 Special Council Work Session 6:50 PM Council: Champion, Kanner, Lehman, O'Donnell, Vanderhoef, Wilburn Absent: Pfab Staff: Atkins, Davidson, Dilkes, Fowler, Franklin, Helling, Karr, Shank TAPE: 03-84, BOTH SIDES TAPE 03-84, SIDE ONE REVIEW ZONING ITEMS Atkins/Rick--before you get started--there's no need for you to be here tomorrow night then? Is that--- Vanderhoef/No. Lehman/No. Rick/That's perfect. Vanderhoef/Happy holidays. Lehman/OK. Planning and Zoning items, Karin. a. CONSIDER AN ORDINANCE VACATING A PORTION OF AN ALLEY RIGHT-OF- WAY LOCATED SOUTH OF KIRKWOOD AVENUE AND WEST OF DIANA STREET. (VAC03-00001) (FIRST CONSIDERATION) Franklin/OK. The first item is to consider an ordinance vacating a portion of an alley right-of- way located south of Kirkwood and west of Diana Street. This is first consideration. Any questions on that one? We've talked about it before. Kanner/Nope. b. CONSIDER AN ORDINANCE AMENDING CITY CODE, TITLE 14, CHAPTER 6, ENTITLED "ZONING," ARTICLE B, ENTITLED "ZONING DEFINITIONS," SECTION 2, ENTITLED "DEFINITIONS." (SECOND CONSIDERATION) Franklin/The second item is second consideration on the "restaurant" definition, which you just passed first consideration. We do have a request to expedite this. It says staff has requested expedited action--that's based upon two businesses that are waiting for this to happen in order for them to proceed, two businesses in the downtown. So they would appreciate expedited consideration if possible. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Iowa City Council special work session Nov. 24, 2003. November 24, 2003 Special Council Work Session Page 2 O'Donnell/Now, if we're only six tomorrow night, then five would do that? Lehman/No. Expedited will take six out of six. Is that not correct? Dilkes/That's right. Absent--- O'Donnell/So it takes unanimous then tomorrow night. Franklin/OK. c. CONSIDER AN ORDINANCE CHANGING THE ZONING DESIGNATION OF APPROXIMATELY 13,500 SQUARE FEET FROM CENTRAL BUSINESS DISTRICT (CB-2) TO PLANNED HIGH DENSITY RESIDENTIAL (PRM), LOCATED AT 512 S. DUBUQUE STREET SOUTH OF COURT STREET. (REZ03-00021) (SECOND CONSIDERATION) Franklin/Item c is to consider an ordinance changing the zoning designation at 512 South Dubuque from CB-2 to PRM. This is second consideration. Lehman/All right. Excuse me, let me interrupt for just a moment. Franklin/Yes. Lehman/I talked to--this is Mr. Clark's project--and he asked me at the last work session I believe, he had thought he had asked for expedited consideration, and I told him if it was expedited it would be on the agenda for tonight's meeting. He had asked for expedited in the rest of it but I had forgotten. Franklin/Oh. Lehman/So what I would like to do with permission of the Council, if we are unable to get the votes to expedite b and c, that we have a special Council meeting next Tuesday at 4:00 o'clock, prior to the orientation meeting, and address each of those. We're all going to be here anyway. Wilburn/Fine. Vanderhoef/Right. O'Donnell/All right. Franklin/Just to point out to you that Mr. Clark has another rezoning on this project comii~g through that we--you set public hearing on the 17th for the 16th of December--and that has to go through. For some reason, he wanted the rezoning from CB-2 to PRM before we did the Sensitive Areas rezoning. He did not want us to do those concurrently. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Iowa City Council special work session Nov. 24, 2003. November 24, 2003 Special Council Work Session Page 3 O'Dormell/Oh. Lehman/Well, in any event, if we need to we can--- Franklin/So, if you need to, you can. But it won't matter a whole lot. Lehman/All right. Vanderhoef/Because he's still held up by the third one. Franklin/Yeah, mm-hmm. Vanderhoef/Well, then. Franklin/Yeah. d. CONSIDER AN ORDINANCE VACATING A PORTION OF THE ALLEY LOCATED TO THE EAST OF 512 S. DUBUQUE STREET (VAC03-00002) (PASS AND ADOPT) Franklin/Item d is to consider an ordinance vacating a portion of the alley located to the east of 512 South Dubuque. Now this is related to the same project obviously. ITEM 10. AUTHORIZING CONVEYANCE OF A TWENTY-FOOT-WIDE BY SIXTY- EIGHT-FOOT-LONG VACATED PORTION OF THE ALLEY BETWEEN AND ADJACENT TO LOTS 2 AND 7, BLOCK 9, COUNTY SEAT ADDITION, WHICII IS LOCATED BETWEEN SOUTH DUBUQUE AND LINN STREETS, TO UNIVERSITY VIEW PARTNERS, LARJ PROPERTIES AND JALIL & MAItROOYEH MOSTAFAVI. Franklin/Item 10 on your agenda is the disposition of this alley, and so to do this according to policy, you would proceed with the public hearing on the conveyance and then pass the resolution on conveyance and then the third reading on the vacation. Lehman/So we would do item 10 prior to d? Franklin/Right. Take d out and put it after 10. Dilkes/Just by motion, take d out and move it until after 10. Lehman/Would we just put 10 in and then do d? Franklin/I would--move d on the agenda to after item 10. Champion/OK. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Iowa City Council special work session Nov. 24, 2003. November 24, 2003 Special Council Work Session Page 4 Vanderhoef/10--- Lehman/ Exchange d and 10. Vanderhoef/OK, it'll become--- Franklin/No. O'Donnell/Just move d to after 10. Franklin/You go a, b, c, e--- Lehman/ Ail right. Franklin/OK. Dilkes/When you get to d, move it by motion to after 10. Champion/After 10 o'clock? Franklin/Yeah--- (Laughter) Franklin/No, not after 10. Lehman/Oh, OK. In other words, we do all the rest of the Planning and Zoning and then come--- Franklin/Yes. Correct. Vanderhoef/So it'll be item 10, d. Lehman/Item 10 and then d. All right. e. CONSIDER A RESOLUTION APPROVING TItE FINAL PLAT OF LINDEMANN SUBDIVISION PART TWO A. (SUB03-00037) f. CONSIDER A RESOLUTION APPROVING TItE FINAL PLAT OF LINDEMANN SUBDIVISION PART THREE. (SUB03-00038) g. CONSIDER A RESOLUTION APPROVING THE FINAL PLAT OF LINDEMANN SUBDIVISION PART FOUR. (SUB03-00039) Lehman/All right. Franklin/E, f, and g--a request to defer those until December 16th. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Iowa City Council special work session Nov. 24, 2003. November 24, 2003 Special Council Work Session Page 5 Kanner/Is that for legal purposes? Franklin/Something to do with legal papers, yeah. Kanner/! had a question about it though. Franklin/Uh, Lindemann? Kanner/Yes. Franklin/Yes. Kanner/I didn't quite understand the purpose of the out-lots in number 2 A, the four out-lots. Franklin/Oh. Yeah. Kanner/These boundaries--I don't understand--what does that mean? Franklin/Well, it's all very peculiar, I think. But that's just my opinion. Part 2 is all of these out- lots which are configured according to when Southgate is going to purchase the property from the Lindemanns. And that's why they did that subdivision and then immediately upon it, we do 3 and 4, which is the furthest subdivision on what you have in part 2. And it's all because of how they're buying it from the Lindemanns. Kanner/I still don't understand. (Laughter) Lehman/I don't think I could (can't hear) Franklin/I don't either. Lehman/I'm going to say I'm not sure we're going to get to that. Wilburn/OK. Kanner/All right, maybe--- Franklin/Maybe you can ask Glen or somebody representing the developer when they come to the meeting on this, which would be on the 16th. Lehman/OK. O'Donnell/So, that's e, f, and g? Franklin/Yeah. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Iowa City Council special work session Nov. 24, 2003. November 24, 2003 Special Council Work Session Page 6 h. CONSIDER A RESOLUTION APPROVING THE PRELIMINARY AND FINAL PLAT OF OAKMONT ESTATES. (SUB03-00019 AND SUB03-00034) Franklin/Item h is a resolution on the preliminary and final plat of Oakmont Estates. This is a development that is at the end of Foster Road, just north of the Peninsula Neighborhood, and this was recommended for approval by the Planning and Zoning Commission. This is the configuration of the project. It will enable the construction of 16 residential lots off of Foster Road and connects with the Peninsula Neighborhood by Swisher Street. So, that was deferred from your October 14th meeting because of an easement along the north part of the property that was in question at the time. It's an easement to the Johnson County Conservation Commission, which the owner is going to clear up to his satisfaction and we don't need to hold on the plat. Any questions on it? i. CONSIDER A RESOLUTION APPROVING THE PRELIMINARY PLAT OF WILD PRAIRIE ESTATES, PART 5. (SUB03-00025) Franklin/OK, Item i is a resolution approving the preliminary plat of Wild Prairie Estates, Part5. This is in west Iowa City, north of Weber School. It will enable the construction of 35 single-family residences. The issues had to do with access to the open space and the County-owned property to the north. This property in here is owned by the County and is part of the larger Johnson County County Home Land Use Plan. Thank you, Jeff. The issues had to do with pedestrian access. We were trying to get pedestrian access along a route here to this out-lot, which will be public open space. All of this will become public open space, A and this out-lot B. The problem was that the topography here is so steep that as we looked at it in the field, it just didn't make sense. So what we have gotten, which was another issue, was how we get vehicular access through here. The developers have agreed to bring the road through to this point, which this then becomes public property, put in a temporary turnaround. But it gets us across the creek with the developer being responsible for the culvert and getting the road across the creek. So, we are ready to go with that one. Vanderhoef/And where does that line up with the County property? Franklin/County property is right up here. And this will become City property here, out-lot A and out-lot B, were being accepted as 6.7 acres of open space that are going to be dedicated to the City. The decision about this open space was made when we did Part 3 to the south and was approved by the Planning and Zoning Commission and yourselves. Vanderhoef/So, we're saying we are committed to building the road through our property to make that connection over to Melrose? Franklin/No, this is not to connect to Melrose. This is to get to this County property here. Remember, there's a plan for all of this property that went through the County and it This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Iowa City Council special work session Nov. 24, 2003. November 24, 2003 Special Council Work Session Page 7 includes open space here which is kind of the Hickory Hill west. This area was for possible future residential development, and then the County Chatham Oaks as well as the poor farm or up at the north part of the property along IWV Road or Melrose. But this--- Vanderhoef/But this road is going to the open space. Franklin/OK. Vanderhoef/Is that what you're saying? Franklin/Yes. Yes. It will be access to the open space. Yeah. Champion/Will there be parking or just a turnarotmd or--- Franklin/ That'll be something we'll have to decide at some future date as this is not developed but is made into useable open space. Kanner/Karin? Franklin/Mm-hmm? Kanner/Our district plan, where do we talk about possible higher density? I thought in this area we had talked about some possible--- Franklin/Whoops. Sorry. Kanner/...higher density. Franklin/OK. In the Southwest District Plan, there is some higher density opportunities on the south side of Rohret Road. In this area the plan shows a commercial area with some higher density around the commercial area. There also would be annexation down here. This is when we bring the sewer from Mormon Trek Village under 218 out through this watershed and there's a piece of land down here, an area of land down here that would potentially be annexed, that there was some higher density that was envisioned right here. Also, as we've looked at Country Club Estates in this area here, there's been some discussion of having some higher density here as this road proceeds down to Rohret Road and along Rohret Road as well as at that intersection, have some higher density. Vanderhoef/Can you show me where the stormwater basin is? Is it in that--- Franklin/For Country Club Estates or what? Vanderhoef/No--- Franklin/ Oh. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Iowa City Council special work session Nov. 24, 2003. November 24, 2003 SpeciaI Council Work Session Page 8 Vanderhoef/...for the Wild Prairie? Franklin/Right in here. Vanderhoeff So we're accepting that along with all the other. Franklin/Yes. Vanderhoef/So that means we're taking on the maintenance of a stormwater basin? Franklin/I--the legal papers are not done on this yet. This is a preliminary plat. Let me go back and I'll see if it's addressed in the staff report. Vanderhoef/There's something in the staff report about the City is accepting the stormwater basin-- Franklin/Mm-hmm. Vanderhoef/...and then it's also talking about accepting out-lots B and C. Franklin/Yeah. Vanderhoef/And--- Franklin/Yes. Vanderhoef/...my question, I guess, is there some way that instead of having a stormwater basin that that can go into the creek? Franklin/Well, see the creek is running right along through here. Vanderhoef/I know it is. Franklin/That's what this culvert is about is for the creek. And so the stormwater detention is being provided right in the stream corridor. Vanderhoef/So it's a step-down situation or something like that rather than the old dry bottom and then--- Franklin/Oh, yeah. I mean, it's not going to be a conventional dry bottom. In fact, you know, I can't see the--- Vanderhoef/Well, the terminology, we use it so broadly when we talk about stormwater basin. Franklin/Right. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Iowa City Council special work session Nov. 24, 2003. November 24, 2003 Special Council Work Session Page 9 Vanderhoef/And that's why it confuses me. Franklin/Stormwater detention area might be more appropriate. Vanderhoef/For this one in--- Franklin/ For this one. Yeah. Vanderhoef/OK. Franklin/This is also where the trail would come under 218 and proceed to the west to come up into this County open space, was along Willow Creek Corridor. Vanderhoeff And will the developer be helping design and build that step-down or however the detention is before we accept dedication? Franklin/They will be responsible for constructing the stormwater facility, yes. Vanderhoef/Thank you. Franklin/Mm-hmm. I'm done. Lehman/Thank you. Franklin/Mm-hmm. O'Donnell/It's not a record but close. Franklin/Yeah. Do you keep score? AGENDA ITEMS Lehman/Review agenda items. ITEM 9. CONSIDER AN ORDINANCE AMENDING TITLE 2 OF THE CITY CODE, ENTITLED "HUMAN RIGHTS," TO SIMPLIFY THE PROBABLE CUASE DETERMINATION PROCESS, TO PROVIDE FOR MEDIATION, TO STREAMLINE THE CONCILIATION PROCESS, TO DEFINE LITIGATION WORTHY, TO ESTABLISH PROCEDURES FOR PUBLIC HEARINGS, TO MODIFY THE POWERS OF THE HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION, TO CLARIFY CERTAIN DEFINITIONS, AND TO MAKE ADDITIONAL NONSUBSTANTIVE CHANGES. (FIRST CONSIDERATION) Wilburu/Heather is here for 9. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Iowa City Council special ~vork session Nov. 24, 2003. November 24, 2003 Special Council Work Session Page 10 Lehman/Pardon? Wilburn/You're here for 9? Item 9? Atkins/You're 9. Shank/Yes. Wilburn/The Rights Amendments? OK. Lehman/Yeah, OK, are there questions relative to item 9, which is the revision of the Human Rights Ordinance dealing with probable cause? O'Donnell/No. Champion/Well, I'd like a little explanation of it. There has been some talk among Commission Members that they thought that this new amendment was taking away the powers of the Human Rights Commission. Can you address that? I'm sure you know what they're talking about. Shank/Certainly. Yes, I do. A couple of the Commissioners really wanted to maintain the decision making in the probable cause phase of the ordinance or the process. They felt like by letting that go they wouldn't be as involved as they should be as a Commissioner. Although they agree that sometimes they don't understand the rulings of the City Attorney's office or the recommendations from my office because we apply the law to the facts, and the law isn't only--let's just say it's been limited severely in certain areas--and so some of the folks have felt very, very disgruntled by the application of the law. But only two really wanted to go ahead and continue to make probable cause decisions. The others felt like it was something they didn't have enough knowledge about, and you know, they went along with the attorney's opinions because we apply the law to the facts, and since they didn't feel comfortable saying that it's contrary to what we put in the reports, they just didn't want to do it anymore, and they actually just wanted to engage in education and be involved in the public hearing phase. So they do that in some other communities. There are a couple of communities that still have their Commissioners make a decision at the probable cause phase, but a lot of commissions are involved only at the probable cause phase. Lehman/Isn't probable cause a legal issue? A legal determination? Shank/Yes. Lehman/So, ifI understand this correctly, the Commission as laypeople want to make that determination? Shank/They do not. They're--- This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Iowa City Council special work session Nov. 24, 2003. November 24, 2003 Special Council Work Session Page 11 Lehman/Some of them do. Shank/The two people wanted to keep reading the cases and making a probable cause decision. Lehman/OK. Shank/And the others decided they didn't want to have any part of it because they didn't feel qualified and--but they wanted to maintain their role of providing education. Champion/Another--is the Commission privy to all the evidence, I guess, I mean--- Shank/We have in the past broken the Commission into three different teams and each team is assigned a case, and they read all of the documents in the case, all of the transcripts of the interviews. They have access to all of the file so they make the decision after reading the City Attorney's decision and our recommendation and then all the evidence. Champion/What do you think is the disadvantage of having them not do that? Shank/I actually don't see any disadvantage. I think it would make them feel so much more comfortable to be involved in the public hearing phase, and they did express some concerns about making the decision whether to go forward with public hearing even at that phase. But, you know, it's kind of like a grand jury. There are laypeople that make decisions in grand jury without having full knowledge of the law, so--- Wilbum/Let me rephrase--let me take a different twist on Connie's question. It says that they will no longer review them. Will they no longer be aware of any probable cause cases? Is there value in having laypeople at least just be made aware of here's a probable cause case, here's what the law says, for education of the Commission--or is that the plan. Shank/Actually. Yes. That's the plan. Wilburn/OK. All right. Shank/Absolutely. We are going to--the teams will be able to read the decision of the--or the investigative summaries that are closed. In closed cases. So they will be aware of what has been happening at the probable cause phase. Yeah. Kanner/Heather, I--- Dilkes/Can I just clarify one thing about that? They cannot--they can only read those investigative summaries upon the closing of the case, as Heather said, because if they do sit as decision makers at the public hearing phase, they cannot have read information about the case along the way. Shank/They were very concerned about that and so we made arrangements so they'd be able to be involved in terms of reading the summaries and so they can determine what This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Iowa City Council special work session Nov. 24, 2003. November 24, 2003 Special Council Work Session Page 12 educational projects they'll put together, based on what they read. Vanderhoef/Do you see them moving towards almost a legislative push? I know you've taken a couple of things to the State Human Rights Commission, and--- Shank/Do you mean--- Vanderhoef/For legal, trying to get changes made at the state legislature? Shank/Oh, yes. Kanner/Lobbying. Shank/Over the years we have gone up to the state to ask them to add sexual orientation as a protected category. Vanderhoef/When I read the minutes now and the discomfort that some of the members have voiced after they've read a case and then hear the conclusion of it, it makes me think that they might be looking at taking something more to the statehouse to say we don't think it's necessarily fair and this ought to be looked at again. Shank/It's, actually the cases that they have expressed the most discomfort about are disability cases, because the Supreme Court of the United States has essentially made the ADA nonexistent. There is little protection for persons with disabilities because they have narrowed the definition of a person with a disability. So anybody with a disability that takes medication that mitigates the symptoms is not considered disabled. The person that worked on the disability law, who actually helped Harkin write it, is a person with epilepsy, and since his medication alleviates his seizures, he's not considered disabled any longer. It's amazing. I mean--it doesn't always make me content, but apparently Harkin is rewriting it so, we'll see. We can always be optimistic. Kanner/OK. Vanderhoef/As you always are. Shank/Oh. Not exactly, I must say, occasionally. Thank you. Kanner/There is an appeal of the first decision, from what I read, of whether or not there's probable cause, but am I correct in saying the appeal takes it right back to the same people who made the decision originally, the Human Rights Coordinator and the City Attorney? Shank/So you're saying in the new one--- Kanner/In the proposed. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Iowa City Council special work session Nov. 24, 2003. November 24, 2003 Special Council Work Session Page 13 Shank/...that if somebody appeals and it comes back to us? Kanner/Yeah. That's the way I read it. Shank/Yes. Dilkes/It's really probably more properly framed at reconsideration than in appeal. Shank/Right. Dilkes/And that has been the case, although there are different people making the probable cause decision in the proposed one. That's the way it was before. Shank/Right. It would come back to the three members of the Commission when it was appealed. And you know in the past, I guess, before I arrived, there were appeals that were successful in overturning the decisions. It's like a reconsideration, like Eleanor said. Kanner/And for mediation that's mentioned, it doesn't mention who pays for it. Shank/We do. Kanner/We do that? Shank/Mm-hmm. Kanner/And so, that's not in the ordinance though, that's just--- Shank/Well--- Kanner/...informally agreed upon? Dilkes/I'm sorry, I missed that question. Shank/Yes. Yes, it is because--oh, about who pays for the mediation--we have paid for it all along. We don't if both parties agree to come to the table and discuss a resolution, then we're very content with paying for it. Kanner/So do we hire a professional mediator? Shank/Yes. Kanner/OK. Shank/We've had a lot of success with mediation. And we do not do or schedule a mediation unless both parties want to come to the table, so--and that's contrary to the state. The This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Iowa City Council special work session Nov. 24, 2003. November 24, 2003 Special Council Work Session Page 14 state will actually engage in mediation if only one party wants to come to the table, but that's not very successful if the other party is just unwilling to have a conversation. Lehman/That's more like arbitration. Kanner/Yeah, it doesn't seem to meet my definition. I think that's good although I'm wondering if that should be in the, perhaps not in the ordinance, but perhaps somewhere written down that we pay for that. Champion/It's accepted. I mean--- Shank/Well, we always tell them that we pay. Vanderhoef/Do you have--- Kanner/I guess it could change but--- Vanderhoef/This brings up budget thoughts on me, I'm sorry, but it did. Shank/That's ali right. Vanderhoef/And how many mediations do you do and ~vhat is our annual cost for mediation? Shank/It really hasn't been that much but I don't have the exact figures, but I can get that for you. We recently mediated four cases and it was a successful mediation. So, and then I think there were t~vo more right after that, so. And we have one scheduled for tomorrow. Champion/Can you give us an example of what kind of cases the mediation was successful in? Shank/Well, the four were sexual harassment cases. There seems to be an upswing of those. O'Donnell/And, Heather, you're comfortable with this? Shank/Yes. O'Donnell/OK. That should be all we need. Vanderhoef/I don't want a long memo, but I would be curious for--- Shank/For cost of the mediation. Vanderhoef/Just cost, number, the number we're doing, and how it affects your budget. Shank/OK. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Iowa City Council special work session Nov. 24, 2003. November 24, 2003 Special Council Work Session Page 15 Vanderhoef/Thank you. Shank/You're welcome. Kanner/And, Heather, the Commission, my reading is it was taken out of the conciliation process. Shank/Yes. Kanner/Can you explain about that, elaborate a bit on that? Shank/Sure. Conciliation is, after a probable cause decision, probable cause to believe discrimination occurred, then both parties come together or just the respondent comes-- it depends on how everybody feels. And we try to work out a resolution to the case that's acceptable to both parties. In the past, Eleanor has been actually engaging in the conciliation but we changed it so I will be doing that now. What is so beneficial about the change in here is that before people wouldn't conciliate because they didn't have access to any of the information. We would write a letter and tell people that if there was a probable cause decision and put in as much information as we could, but they didn't have access to the file. And without access to the file, people don't really understand why we reached the decision that we did. So, I think it's a great change because now they will be able to see why we made the decision we did. Kanner/So, I'm not following what happened exactly and why. Shank/What happened exactly is I actually will engage in the conciliation which means that both parties will have read the case and they'll see why we made the decision, then they'll come to the table, and based on what they've read, they will have a better understanding of their exposure, what sort of damages they're looking at; they can make a decision more readily because they have more information. Kanner/Don't they do that with the Commission or a subcommittee or a committee of the Commission? Shank/Now that we're providing the case, I mean, it's possible that they could do that. We just didn't have that done that way because when I looked at all the ordinances from other cities and the director or the coordinator actually engages in the mediation. I mean the conciliation, excuse me. Kanner/Thanks. Shank/So. O'Donnell/Thank you. Shank/You're welcome. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Iowa City Council special work session Nov. 24, 2003. November 24, 2003 Special Council Work Session Page 16 Lehman/Thank you, Heather. Vanderhoef/That's a lot of work. ShankJ Have a wonderful evening. Vanderhoef/Yes. Thank you. Shank/Do you have any more questions? Lehman/Any other agenda items? ITEM 12. CONSIDER A RESOLUTION AUTHORIZING THE MAYOR TO SIGN AND THE CITY CLERK TO ATTEST AN AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE CITY OF IOWA CITY AND THE IOWA DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION, AND A SIDE AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE CITY OF IOWA CITY AND THE UNIVERSITY OF IOWA FOR CONSTRUCTION OF THE SIDEWALK EXTENSION FROM HAWKINS DRIVE TO ELLIOT DRIVE ALONG HIGHWAY 6 PROJECT [STP-E-3715(624)--8V-52]. Vanderhoef/Yeah, while Karin is--the, no I don't know whether it's Karin or whether it's Rick, and Rick has gone, hasn't he? The new sidewalk along Highway 6? Champion/Mm-hmm. Vanderhoef/! was reading the contract and it wasn't clear to me whether at the very tail end of the contract where the University agrees to be responsible for any action or liability arising out of the design, construction, maintenance, placement of traffic control devices, inspection or use of this project will directly result from the negligent acts of omissions of the University. Parties agree that the University itself is insured. I took that to mean that that's only during the time of building and then a breakdown in the facility afterwards. I want to know who's going to maintain that sidewalk full-time. You know, who's going to plow the snow on that, who's going to fix the cracks, who's going to mow along the edge of it? Franklin/The University, Jeff is saying behind you. Lehman/It's University property. Franklin/It's all on University property. Yeah, the University. Lehman/They're just using us to facilitate the funding? Vanderhoef/To get the funding through. OK. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Iowa City Council special work session Nov. 24, 2003. November 24, 2003 Special Council Work Session Page 17 Dilkes/That provision you read is essentially an indemnification provision; it really doesn't impact--- Vanderhoef/That's what I thought, that it wasn't talking about the maintenance but I was wanting to find out about. O'Donnell/I had a question, number 14. Atkins/My--Dee, did that answer your question? There's nothing else you need from us on that? Vanderhoef/Not on that one, no. Atkins/All right. OK. ITEM 14. CONSIDER A RESOLUTION ESTABLISHING AN ADMINISTRATIVE FEE FOR PROVIDING SIDEWALK REPAIR BY CONTRACT. O'Donnell/Number 14, the administration fee for sidewalk repair. Atkins/Mm-hmm. O'Donnell/Is that a pretty frequent problem? Atkins/It happens often enough, Mike, that it gets to be kind of a nuisance. Most property owners are very good about it. You give them their notice, they get together with the neighbors to go fix their walk. O'Donnell/OK. Atkins/There are certain property owners that just simply, to beck with it; you just go take care of it. And that's the one that we want to charge the fee to. O'Dormell/OK. Atkins/Yeah. O'Donnell/The ones who aren't--- Atkins/Yeah, the ones that just sort of walk a~vay from--- O'Donnell/They thumb their nose and it's ignored. Atkins/And it's ignored, yeah. Vanderhoef/Well, I--- This represents only a reasonably accurate ta'anscription of Iowa City Council special work session Nov. 24, 2003. November 24, 2003 Special Council Work Session Page 18 Lehman/And even at $25, it might be a lot simpler for some of these folks, to say, heck, let the City do it for 25 bucks, I'll pay the bill and pay the $25. Atkins/There is something to that. But we've just found that most folks are really pretty conscientious about the fact when we tag the sidewalk, they go get it fixed. O'Donnell/Fine. Thank you. Vanderhoef/Is this $25 pretty much revenue neutral? It pays for our staff time and that's about it? Atkins/That's about it, and that's a stretch. Vanderhoef/That's--- Atkins/Yeah, that's a stretch. Vanderhoef/That's where I think it ought to be is pretty, you know--- Atkins/We try to cover some of the paperwork, postage, things such as that and that's about it. Dilkes/Yeah, I kno~v it's just a cost recovery. Atkins/OK. Vanderhoef/Yeah, OK, that's what I wanted. ITEM 13. CONSIDER A RESOLUTION APPROVING, AUTHORIZING, AND DIRECTING THE MAYOR TO EXECUTE AND THE CITY CLERK TO ATTEST AN AGREEMENT BY AND BETWEEN THE CITY OF IOWA CITY AND EARTH TECH, INC., COMPANY TO PROVIDE ENGINEERING CONSULTANT SERVICES FOR THE MORMON TREK BOULEVARD EXTENSION PROJECT PHASE 2. Vanderhoef/Then just a question about 13. For the second part, Phase 2 of Mormon Trek, are we going to use, continue to use our own project manager? Atkins/That's my intent. Vanderhoef/OK. Atkins/It's keeping project managers is the problem, but, yes, that's the intent to do that. Franklin/They get so good they get hired away. (Laughter) This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Iowa City Council special ~vork session Nov. 24, 2003. November 24, 2003 Special Council Work Session Page 19 Atkins/Yes, they do. Kanner/Karin? Vanderhoeff Give them some free opportunities. ITEM 4. CONSIDER ADOPTION OF THE CONSENT CALENDAR AS PRESENTED OR AMENDED. b. RECEIVE AND FILE MINUTES OF BOARDS AND COMMISSIONS (1) HISTORIC PRESERVATION COMMISSION: OCTOBER 9 (2) HISTORIC PRESERVATION COMMISSION: OCTOBER 23 Kanner/Karin, I had a question for you about the minutes in--you might not know the answer right now, but perhaps you'd be able to find out. In regard to--(can't hear) make that up here--Board and Commission minutes, number 4 b, the first one is Historic Preservation, and then I also had--that was from October 9th, and then Historic Preservation, October 23rd. The first one they ~vere talking with Svenson--how do you pronounce that? Franklin/Marla Svenson. Kanner/Svenson. Talking about the possible Historic District on the north side. And they talked about Memy, precluding the Mercy Hospital parking lot where there were two previous buildings. Franklin/Mm-hmm. Karmer/Now, I didn't quite understand what she was--I think this was her quote, "gives Commission something to say about that as it relates to the balance of the area." Vanderhoef/They were going to include it. Kanner/What? Vanderhoef/They were going to include those two properties in the designation of historic place, even though the houses had been removed. And if they put them in there, then it was set up so that they would have some say about what Memy did if they were getting ready to redesign it. Franklin/Yeah. Vanderhoef/That's the way I read it. Franklin/Right. Any new construction there would then come under the review of the Commission, which is what her recommendation was was to include it so that would This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Iowa City Council special work session Nov. 24, 2003. November 24, 2003 Special Council Work Session Page 20 happen. Kanner/Now, I know a lot of people wanted to save the houses that were there before. Franklin/Yeah. Kanner/It seems so, a little weird after the fact to include a parking lot in there, and I don't know how the National--is it the National Register of Historic Places--- Franklin/Yeah. Kanner/...how they accept something like that. How could they accept putting in a parking lot where it's a done deal already? Franklin/Well, because it's in the context of a district. And so when you're looking at a district designation versus a landmark designation where it's just one specific property, the establishment of the district is about the context of the area, and what properties contribute or don't contribute to the context of the area and then what redevelopment of those properties may contribute to the area. So it's as much--and in this case--it is all about what happens if something is built on that parking lot area, to ensure that it is compatible with the district and doesn't act as a detriment to the district, that it's to the scale of the rest of the buildings in the area. Champion/It's all about redevelopment. Franklin/In this case, it's all about redevelopment, yeah. Kanner/OK. And then the second question was in regard to the meeting on the 23rd, it said McCafferty said the plan was not done on the City's time. She said that she can work on the plans outside of the City's time but cannot make any recommendations to the Commission. Franklin/I have a question about that, too, which I haven't had an opportunity to talk to Shelley and Bob about yet. Kanner/OK. Will you keep us posted, what that was about? Franklin/I will do that. Kanner/OK, thank you. Franklin/Mm-hmm. Kanner/That was it for Karin. Lehman/Any other agenda items? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Iowa City Council special work session Nov. 24, 2003. November 24, 2003 Special Council Work Session Page 21 O'Donnell/(Can't hear) COUNCIL APPOINTMENTS Lehman/Yes. OK, Council appointments. We only have one application. O'Donnell/Right. Champion/Mr. Roger Williams, is that--- Vanderhoeff Fine. Lehman/Yes, for PCRB. O'Donnell/That's right. Champion/I think he's very well qualified. Lehman/I like the fact that his (can't hear) oldest son is a police officer. Vanderhoef/Mm-hmm, he is. Lehman/That should have some understanding. Vanderhoef/Yes. Lehman/You're recommending Roger? Vanderhoef/Yes. Lehman/Are there four people? OK, good. What else? COUNCIL TIME Lehman/Council time. O'Donnell/I occasionally bring this up about public discussion. It seems that it just keeps--I would like to see us make an attempt to try and keep five minutes, and I know how difficult that is at times. But public discussion is for comments, not I don't believe interaction, and too often we get involved in that and it just extends that period to I think to too, too long, and you know, I just--I brought it up three or four times, and I just bring it up again. Lehman/No, and you're right, Mike, I think whenever we, when we start to engage the public, the five-minute rule's gone because then we can talk to them--and then the other thing This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Iowa City Council special work session Nov. 24, 2003. November 24, 2003 Special Council Work Session Page 22 we basically do is prohibit the rest of the public from having that time before 8:00 o'clock to discuss what they need to discuss. Champion/That has very rarely happened, maybe twice in the past four years even, that we've had to have continued open discussion after the meeting. Lehman/Oh, well, most, most people will leave. They won't wait for that. O'Donnell/But I mean most people do observe five minutes. Champion/Oh, sure. O'Donnell/But some do not. And you know it seems like it's not fair to those that do, to let somebody go on for 15 minutes. Champion/No, I agree with you, Mike. O'Dormell/That's why I bring that up. Champion/But I think there are other things to consider, not that I'm disagreeing with you. I'm just going to point out the disadvantage of what you're saying, is that a lot of times if you don't at least communicate with the people who are speaking to you, they feel like they haven't been heard. Then they feel like there hasn't been any public discussion. So it is a two-edged sword, and I think generally we handle it all pretty well. Mike, I know exactly what you're saying. Vanderhoef/And the other time that I get a little uncomfortable is when somebody starts putting out misinformation and we know it--- O'Donnell/And you can respond to it, and too easily you can wind up in an argument or--- Champion/ Right. O'Dormell/...and I just think that's inappropriate at that time. We're all accessible, we've all got answering machines. Kart/Mr. Mayor? We do have a Council orientation planned next week and that item is specifically on at that time. Lehman/(can't hear) that orientation. O'Donnell/And I didn't put it there. Lehman/No, and it won't be the first time it's been there, and I'm sure it won't be the last. So, OK, anything else for Council time? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Iowa City Council special work session Nov. 24, 2003. November 24, 2003 Special Council Work Session Page 23 Champion/Well, I have a letter from the Congregational Church here. It says (can't hear) people in town who are very concerned about the overflow of Shelter House for this winter. And--but there's probably going to be a minimum of two years before the new shelter is built. They're asking us to consider some alternatives that they might be able to use, but they're just suggesting, they're just suggesting the Rec Center. But what they're asking is it possible, would the Council allow a group of people from the Shelter House and maybe from this religious group, a committee that is forming, let's see what they call themselves here, to come and suggest some possibilities to the Council to deal with some of the overflow in the winter. Lehman/They're asking--- Kanner/Some space, some City-owned space--- Champion/They're suggesting that there might be a possibility if the City could help them with some accommodation for overflow from the Shelter House this winter. Is anybody else interested in listening to them? Lehman/Have you seen this, Steve? Atkins/No, I've not seen that, but the Consultation of Churches communicated with me--oh, it's a week or ten--I don't know how long it is, Connie, but a week or ten days ago--and the Consultation was getting together to discuss that very issue. There appeared to be interest that the churches were thinking about opening their doors, where they were actually going to provide the space and deal with this issue. I advised them, and I've not got anything officially back from them, I just communicated and said there's going to be a number of things you have to think about. One is it's got to be a managed process. Somebody has to be awake, has to make sure that there's control. Secondly, that there may be zoning violations. Dilkes/You know, can I suggest--I'm sorry to interrupt to. Atkins/OK. Dilkes/But if we're going to talk about this we're probably going to need to put it on a work session. Atkins/The bottom line was I tried to give them a head's up on a number of issue. Dilkes/I think you should just put it on a work session if you want to talk about it. Kanner/I would like to do that. Lehman/Well, would it be appropriate for you, Steve, to pursue this and see exactly what they have in mind? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Iowa City Council special work session Nov. 24, 2003. November 24, 2003 Special Council Work Session Page 24 Atkins/I!m fine with that. O'Donnell/I would like an answer from Steve before we put that on a work session. Atkins/We're getting different churches now with different opinions. And I have not seen that letter, Connie. Champion/Here, I'll make sure everybody gets a copy of it. Atkins/I'll take care of that. Vanderhoef/Oh, it's in here? Karr/No. It's not in there. You didn't all receive it. O'Donnell/I didn't see that. Karr/No. Lehman/I got one. O'Dormell/You're special. Kart/There were just--there were two copies. So, if you'd like I can distribute it in the next packet or tomorrow evening, whatever you'd like--- Champion/ You know, I'd leave it, but I'd like a copy of it before I leave so that I can-- Wilburn/And I think this group that Steve talked--they have another meeting scheduled, so--- Champion/ ! mean it is going to be, it is a problem even if, it's more of a problem in the winters than in the summer when it's downright cold. Lehman/Well, I think we can do (can't hear) Atkins/Yep. Lehman/Oh, OK. Right. Atkins/I'm assuming you want to know more. Lehman/Yeah, I think that's right. Kanner/And the sooner the better. I think, early before (can't hear) (Several talk) This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Io~va City Cotmcil special work session Nov. 24, 2003. November 24, 2003 Special Council Work Session Page 25 Kanner/Well, you're going to--OK, I'm sorry. Atkins/I can answer your questions but I can't answer your questions. Kanner/So, maybe a memo. Dilkes/Now, let me just clarify. If you want to refer this matter to Steve and have Steve take a look at it at least initially, that's fine, too. You can do that here. My only concern is that if you all are going to talk about it among yourselves, you should put it on a work session. O'Donnell/Let's refer it to Steve and get an answer back. Lehman/All right, that's where we--- Champion/ But if we're going to have to have discussion about it, then I think it needs to be on the next session before winter's over. Atkins/That's the 15th. Wilburn/16th. O'Donnell/The 16th. Lehman/That's the 15th. Wilburn/Yeah, that'd be fine. Lehman/All right. O'Donnell/Let's find out--- Champion/It can be flexible about the work--- Lehman/Well, we can have it at the work session if there's something to talk about, fine-~if there isn't something to talk about, that's fine. Champion/Right. But we're not going to talk about it if it's not on there. Lehman/All right. Anything else for Council time? Kanner/A couple things. Another thing that was on the agenda. What's the presentation for Bicyclists of Iowa City? Atkins/They're going to give you a check for, I believe, for $300 to $400 to use for bicycle This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Iowa City Council special work session Nov. 24, 2003. November 24, 2003 Special Council Work Session Page 26 safety programs, something that they worked through the Police Department. Kanner/Well, that's nice. Atkins/Yeah. Champion/Thank you. Kanner/And is it possible if Council agreed to remove a part of the bond issuance and vote on that separately? I'm talking about--with all the same other legal wording. Champion/Which one is that? Kanner/This is number 17, issue the bonds and levying the tax. Atkins/Mm-hmm. Right. Kanner/What I would want to do is remove the part for the transit intermodal facility. Atkins/You've already, the bonds, I mean, in effect have been sold. The prospectus was approved. Unfortunately, Steven, I think you'd have to vote against the whole thing. Kanner/The bonds have already--- Atkins/Well, we've made--it's tantamount to a commitment. Karr/You directed the sale the last meeting. This is the issuance. Lehman/Right. Kanner/This is issuing after--- Atkins/Yeah. Karr/Yes. Atkins/And all of these things are the gyrations you have to go through to secure the bonds, yeah. Kanner/Oh, I had a question about the Eastside Loop. Joe maybe, might be able to answer this. We got a memo from Ron. I understand we're going to extend it by six minutes. I don't understand the shortening the afternoon run by 17 minutes since no one is riding after the bus leaves Sycamore Mall. What's going to be shortened? Champion/That's what's going to be shortened, after Sycamore Mall. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Iowa City Council special work session Nov. 24, 2003. November 24, 2003 Special Council Work Session Page 27 Fowler/It makes more than one loop in the afternoon, and we're cutting offthe end of the last loop because all the kids are getting it, catching it the first time around, and so it's running a second loop around virtually empty. The westside only runs one and so this would be making the two of them the same. Wilburn/But the extra time, what time will the bus arrive at, say like SouthEast then? Will they have, will the kids that are catching it on the tail end have enough time or will--- Fowler/ Yeah, it starts at SouthEast--- Wilburn/OK. Fowler/...and then goes SouthEast, City High, Regina, and then ends up over at the Sycamore. So it's cutting off the end of the route, the beginning when those kids are riding, those times aren't going to be affected. Wilburn/All right. Kauner/Explain to me again. I'm not following this. This route goes on the eastside and it goes twice a day, once in the morning and once in the afternoon? Fowler/Correct. Karmer/And you're cutting out the afternoon? Fowler/The end of the afternoon. Karmer/Just the end. Fowler/Right. The second, right. Kanner/So it's going to go to Sycamore Mall and then go back to the station? Fowler/Correct. Kanner/And so that before it would take another 17 minutes and then go back to the station? Fowler/That's correct. Kanner/OK. And so that 17 minutes saves, you said, $525 a year. That driver does something else for a few minutes that saves money? Fowler/Yeah, the next run pick their time would be cut back by that, the majority of that time is basically time or that--- TAPE 03-84, SIDE TWO This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Iowa City Council special work session Nov. 24, 2003. November 24, 2003 Special Council Work Session Page 28 Kanner/OK. That was it on that one, thank you. Lehman/Thank you, Joe. Anything else for Council time? All right, the next item. Oh, we're going to--the next item is a quick break. (BREAK) CHILD CARE CENTER / COURT STREET TRANSPORTATION FINANCING Atkins/Ready to go? Lehman/OK, shall we finish up? The last item on the work session is the Child Care Center. Atkins/I guess I'm up on that one. Lehman/The Ground Transportation building. Atkins/This is to get some direction from you as well as giving you a little bit of an update on where we are. At the time we were putting together the Court Street, which was formally the Near South Side--- Champion/I'm sorry I've got a sore neck--I can't turn my head. I have to watch you with--- (Laughter) Atkins/Yeah, but I'm used to talking to the back of your head. Of course, I've forgotten what I was talking about. Karmer/As long as Connie's turning around, I'm turning around also. Kerr/It's just that when you turn around, it'll be blank tape because I can't hear either one of yotl. Atkins/Yeah, you can't say anything when you're turned around. Vanderhoef/Why don't you come up here? Atkins/Ah, Dee. Lehman/Position of honor though. There we go. Atkins/You can turn around, turn your back to me. (Laughter) This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Iowa City Council special work session Nov. 24, 2003. November 24, 2003 Special Council Work Session Page 29 Atkins/Court Street Transportation Center, formally Near South Side Transportation Center, at the time the project was being put together, there was a child care center component. Some time ago we were put out for proposal to find out who we could get interested in being the child care provider within the context of the project. There are basically three elements of the project. The bus depot, child care center, and the parking garage. We had discussions with a national franchise operator, we've had discussions with a local provider, and we've had discussions with the University of Iowa about the possibility of being the provider. Those three have not worked out. So we turned Linda loose, Severson, and she did some additional contacts and we're able to secure some other folks that are providers of child care services. When we bid the Court Street Transportation Center, we asked for a fit-out of the bus depot and the child care center. We had estimated the child care center to be $600,000. Knutson has indicated to us that if we exercise the option in the next three months, the bid proposal was $400,000. So a substantial savings. Now, here's where the--- Champion/Why is that? Atkins/Why is what? Champion/Why such a big savings? Atkins/I'm assuming it's a big savings because they've already assembled, they're on the site, it's just a matter of take the crew that was building upstairs, put them down in something such as that. It was a good number, and they've committed to it and they're willing to stick by it. Karmer/$600,000 down to $300,000? Atkins/Yeah--S400,000. Lehman/$400,000. Atkins/$409,000 to be exact. The initial thinking was that we would use $250,000 of CDBG money, specifically the money that was generated from the sale of the 64-1a project, and that would be committed to the fit-out of the, for the child care center. HUD has determined that we do not qualify as a city under the area-wide benefit division, a HUD regulation, and therefore, if we are to use CDBG monies--remember this is additional monies--generated from 64-1a, they would require us to operate the center with over 50 percent must meet 80 percent of median income guideline. Our experience to date from the providers is that that's a deal breaker. They simply cannot satisfy that. We had stipulated we wanted a minimum of 15 percent, and there appears to be interest in providing that. Now, we must provide for the child care center within the building, and there's a couple of questions I need to propose to you, and we'll give you our recommendations. The $250,000 we'd indicated to you would be put into the pot and we would apply for those monies through HCDC and they would, Housing and Community Development Commission, they would recommend to you--they could This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Iowa City Council special work session Nov. 24, 2003. November 24, 2003 Special Council Work Session Page 30 vote it up, vote it down. It's your call. Our Economic Development Committee had expressed an interest in using the CD money. We had as a staff expressed an interest in using it. But with the regulations that apply, it will be difficult for us to get a provider. Now, remember, we will own the building; we will lease it to a private contractor to provide child care services. Because of that we are recommending that the CDBG money, the $250,000 remain with the Housing and Community Development Commission and that we internally finance the fit-out of the child cam center. That means they will, we will in effect be advancing the money, and they will pay us back with the lease payments that are generated from the contract we would have with the private provider. In addition to that, another good thing has happened. We just were notified that Greyhound has received a $200,000 grant to build out the bus depot. So we think we can get the child care center and repay ourselves, HCDC gets an additional $250,000 to work with--as in ultimate you who get to make those decisions--and the bus depot is going to be fit out by way of a grant. Now, the income generated from the contract with the private provider would pay off what they would owe us to the fit-out, ultimately the remainder of the money would go to Transit--because remember this is a Transit project--for their capital and their operations. If our calculations are correct, it would appear that there would be more than sufficient money, for example, to match the purchase of Transit vehicles and other things, and we would not have to borrow for that. So we reduce our debt--go ahead, Connie. Wilburn/I need to interrupt. You're moving beyond a perfunctory discussion of decisions, so I need to back out of this conversation due to a conflict of interest because I'm funded by an organization that receives CDBG funds. (WILBURN LEAVES TABLE) Atkins/OK. Champion/Steve, my only--the question that just came to my head immediately is how can a daycare center afford that kind of a quote "mortgage"? Atkins/Our discussions with the private provider--we gave them the numbers on what we'd expect to receive in lease payments--again we're just estimating. Champion/I know. Atkins/And as long as they can fulfill the 15 percent, the low-income requirement, the 50 percent they have indicated they cannot satisfy that. Champion/No, I understand that. Atkins/Yeah. Champion/But can they afford--I mean, how would they pay this money back? Would it be interest--- This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Iowa City Council special work session Nov. 24, 2003. November 24, 2003 Special Council Work Session Page 31 Atkins/In lease payments. Lease payments. They would have a monthly lease payment. Lehman/What period of time? Atkins/Oh, we haven't really calculated all that, Ernie, but I would suspect they would have a 20-year payback, apparently at the outside, and that would be a long payback. I would try to shorten that thing up, but we would still have--making the payments on the fit-out loan, there's still additional income that comes in for us to be used for other Transit- related projects and I'm suggesting that additional income be applied to Transit capital so that we don't have to borrow then. Champion/Right. Atkins/That reduces our borrowing. Champion/Mm-hmm. Atkins/Yeah. Vanderhoef/So where is this other cash coming from? Atkins/From the lease payments. We expect the lease payments to be anywhere in the neighborhood, Dee, of from $50,000 to $80,000. It depends on whether they get property tax exemptions. And Joe and Jeff, if I'm off-base, the monthly, monthly? The annual payment for the build-out, for the fit-out loan that we would provide them is about $35,000. So anywhere from $20,000 to $50,000 of additional income is available. That income must be applied to Transit. Champion/Right. Atkins/We're suggesting that you take those monies and apply it to Transit, for example, bus purchases where we have a 20 percent match, and in doing that, then we don't have to borrow to provide for that match. Vanderhoef/And we can do this only because you are, we can do this only if you put this out to 20-year paybacks? Atkins/We'll probably try to shorten that, Dee. That's too, in my judgment, that's too long a payback but we'll use--- Vanderhoef/Yeah. Atkins/...but we'll use it for negotiation purposes. I'm just trying to give you some--I want to know if conceptually we're OK with this, we'll try to tighten the thing up. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Iowa City Council special work session Nov. 24, 2003. November 24, 2003 Special Council Work Session Page 32 Champion/I'm conceptually OK with it. Atkins/OK. Champion/My only concern is--and I could be all wrong because I don't run the daycare--but can a daycare afford to pay that much money back? Atkins/We've quoted some numbers to them, the folks that we've talked to, we checked around with other area daycares, asked them about the 50 percent requirement, asked them what they paid, they were very forthcoming about it. We think we've been generally conservative in our numbers. Now, until the ink is dry on a contract, we don't really have that. But it's a change in strategy where more money goes into the CDBG pot. We take some risk which is minimal in financing the fit-out. And then additionally we don't, we've now received another grant and that is for the bus depot. Lehman/OK, now let me ask you a question. If we did use the CDBG money--- Atkins/Yes. Lehman/...and would then have a 50 percent requirement for folks who stay there--- Atkins/Fifty percent of, we estimate that and the folks we've talked to, there should be, there could be as many as 80 child care slots, and these are new slots. We're not moving them around. I think it's new to the community--and that's real important--that we create 80 new slots. If we were to use CDBG, 40 of those, half, 50 percent--- Lehman/Right. For ho~v long? Atkins/I'm assuming forever. Lehman/Well, the reason I'm asking that is--and I have some of the same concerns that Connie does--I don't really care that this be over 20 years. I mean if it takes 25 years, that's not a problem. But there's a huge problem if we use the CDBG money and the provider changes--- Atkins/Yes. Lehman/...in eight years or 10 years or whatever. Atkins/That's a good point. Lehman/Then we have to go, continue using the 50 percent requirement which could be some significant problem in trying to lease it. Atkins/Did the provider indicate, Joe or Jeff, the length of time of the contract? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Iowa City Council special work session Nov. 24, 2003. November 24, 2003 Special Council Work Session Page 33 Davidson/(can't hear) contract? Atkins/The contract. Lehman/Lease. Atkins/The lease. Davidson/Yeah, we talked about it, 15 years. Atkins/OK, the contractor we propose indicated up to a 15-year contract. So, it would be nice to tie the length of that contract with our debt, I mean the parking garage and other components are going to be there well beyond that, but we can tie those together. That would make good sense. Champion/Well, I think you just have to make sure that they can pay it back. I mean, it can't be such a high amount of money that they can't pay it back. Atkins/Yeah, well, some of the others, some of the local folks we had talked to were going to require subsidy. So we went to the private market saying who are child care providers out them on a national, from a national basis? And that's the folks we're talking to. Steven? Kanner/A few things. First of all, when you say $400,000, does that mean that we pay 20 pement of that? Atkins/No, we pay $400,000. We own that space. We fit it out in order to accommodate a child care center. We own that building, and we have an obligation by contract to the Federal Transit Administration to place child cam services in that parking garage and this had been the intent of the project. That doesn't change. Vanderhoef/And--- Kanner/Why was that, why is that not subject to the 80/20 funding from the feds? Atkins/That one I don't know. Vanderhoef/The building is but not the fit-out? Davidson/The fit-out of the spaces--- Atkins/OK, the fit-out of the spaces is not eligible. OK. Kanner/What? Why is that? Atkins/The fit-out of the spaces according to the Federal Transit Administration is not an This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Iowa City Council special work session Nov. 24, 2003. November 24, 2003 Special Council Work Session Page 34 eligible 80-20 cost. That's their rules. Vanderhoef/And the $250,000 cannot be used to buy down the debt, the bond without going to 50 percent--- Atkins/No, we tried to explore that and, no, we cannot. That's why I'm proposing to use it so we avoid the debt for other transit-related, and we end up getting almost the same bang for our buck. Vanderhoef/And that was the case because it was federal money matching federal money--- Atkins/Right. You got it. Vanderhoef/...with 80-20. We couldn't use the $250,000 for the match to the 80. Champion/Oh, sure. Atkins/Yeah. So we had to make sure--so I'm saying that when we use those lease monies because it's created by--you understand what it? OK. Lehman/But this--I'm sorry go ahead. Kanner/OK. So when there's a requirement by HUD that if we use CDBG money to pay for this that 50 percent have to, of the families have to be income up to 80 percent--- Atkins/That's right. Kanner/...of median income, now what does that mean beyond that as far as what they're charged for their fees? Do they get to charge the same rate? Atkins/I guess I don't know. Kanner/...I asstane they're getting charged a lower rate by some mandate, that's why child care providers are not thrilled by that. Champion/I don't think that's true. Kanner/Are they mandated to be, to pay a lower rate? Atkins/I don't believe--oh, I see your point. Kanner/I mean, why are they concerned about 50 percent? Davidson/The reason that the provider is concerned is that it's a very, very competitive environment out there for child care providers. I mean, if you could see the due diligence that the, this firm that we're negotiating with is doing, I mean, they've been in This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Iowa City Council special work session Nov. 24, 2003. November 24, 2003 Special Council Work Session Page 35 the community, they've done a lot of work, they've talked to existing providers, and they just don't want to hamstring their ability to get kids into the facility with that. They're willing to go to the--and one other distinction, the 15 percent that Stephen's been talking about is, are kids eligible for state assistance? So it's actually much lower income kids than the 80 percent of the median income. But they're willing to agree to that but the 50 percent would just competitively put them at such a disadvantage. Kanner/Well, it seems to me that it's a seller's market in terms of providers. There's not enough child care out there being provided, and again, you didn't quite answer the question of whether or not they have to take a certain rate from these people. If they're taking the same rate, someone at 80 percent of $65,000 for a family of four is making, minus $I3,000. They're making $52,000. So they can pay a pretty good fee. They can pay comparable fees. So I don't understand again why that is--- Davidson/It's not my understanding, Steven, that HUD makes any requirements on what you charge. It's just that when they come in and check, you have to have at least 50 percent of the kids at 80 percent below, or 80 percent of median income. Champion/That might be (can't hear) Lehman/Well, the hassle, I would think, in requiring financial statements from the parents of the kids that were going to go in there, it would be somewhat--- Davidson/It may very well be that, you know, if you didn't have that requirement you still might end up with that. I have no idea. Lehman/I would guess you'd come real close. Davidson/But it's just that they don't want to be limited by that requirement and us have to basically--- Champion/But the 15 percent would be lower income--- Davidson/Yes. Champion/...and would be subsidized? Davidson/Eligible for state assistance, right. Lehman/And that would have to be documented. Davidson/Yes. We require that. Vanderhoef/And those are the ones that don't pay the going rate, even with the subsidy. Davidson/They're the ones that are subsidized, yeah. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Iowa City Council special work session Nov. 24, 2003. November 24, 2003 Special Council Work Session Page 36 Vanderhoef/Well, but the subsidy that they get from the state doesn't totally pay the actually cost for that child. Champion/No, they have to pay something. Lehman/Right. Vanderhoef/No, they, some of them don't. Atkins/Some of them don't. Vanderhoef/And that's what the child care center has to eat. Champion/Right. Vanderhoef/And that's why they can only afford 15 percent. Atkins/Well, the bottom line for you all is that are you prepared to see that the $250,000 goes to the HCDC for them to recommend on--you can decide what to do, whatever you want. I'm assuming you would be willing to accept the $200,000 grant through Greyhound from the DOT and that we would finance the fit-out of the child care center from local resources with the understanding that there is a payback, a reasonable schedule, a payback, and then finally any monies beyond the payback and fit-out will be applied to Transit. In our case, we're going to apply for Transit capital so we don't have to borrow. Champion/Mm-hmm. Lehman/Was this $200,000 from Greyhound, was that an expense we were anticipating? Atkins/No, we were anticipating we would have to pay for it, that was part of the, so we were fortunate to get--we were fortunate that this Inter-City Bus Grant Greyhound said we will apply for. It goes to Greyhound. They then can fit out their space with those monies. Beforehand, we would have had to do that. Lehman/Right. So as far as fitting this facility is concerned, we were anticipating $800,000-- $600,000 for the child care, $200,000 for the--now it appears that there's $400,000 for the child care--- Atkins/We'll get by with that. Lehman/...and $200,000 coming from Greyhound. Actually instead of $800,000, we are going to be putting in $400,000, which we anticipate we'll be able to recover. Atkins/And that's precisely right. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Iowa City Council special work session Nov. 24, 2003. November 24, 2003 Special Council Work Session Page 37 Lehman/Why don't we do that? Vanderhoef/OK. Champion/One more question. Vanderhoef/Yeah, I have one too. Which might be better--and I know you've got to play with the numbers--but which might be better to pay out the fit-out first and not send any money back to Transit--- Atkins/Mm-hmm. Vanderhoef/...or to make a longer payout to--- Atkins/And I don't know the answer to that, Dee, but those are both things that, yeah, that's a good observation. I need to crunch the numbers to figure that out. Vanderhoef/I'd like to see a little, you know, which--- Atkins/Yeah, I know--- Vanderhoef/...is most cost-effective for us? Atkins/What we want to do is that if you accept this, we'll do a little pro forrna on it and that kind of shows you how we want to shape this whole thing out. Vanderhoef/What we can borrow on the bond market versus--- Atkins/That's, yeah, internal financing we can charge whatever we want, that's to our advantage. Vanderhoef/Typically, ~ve've--- Atkins/We've charged whatever the going rate is. Vanderhoeff Mm-hmm. Lehman/All right. Champion/On the grant from the--- Atkins/The DOT, yes? Champion/Oh, the grant from the DOT. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Iowa City Council special work session Nov. 24, 2003. November 24, 2003 Special Council Work Session Page 38 Atkins/It's from the state DOT to Greyhound. Champion/OK. I thought you said from Greyhound and I thought they'll be paying a lease payment to us--- Atkins/Yes, they will. Greyhound has to--yeah. Champion/I thought maybe if they were doing the payout we wouldn't get the lease money until the payout was paid for. Atkins/I'm not exactly, how we learned of it, but there',s an Inter-City Bus Grant provided by the state, and Greyhound and the staff are working on the arrangements for the bus depot. They saw this, they went after it, the state awarded the money to them to pay for their leasehold improvements, and in effect, that saves us from doing it, too. So I think Ernie's arithmetic is correct. We projected $800,000, we're now down to $400,000, if you accept this scenario. And you have $250,000 in new money in CDBG. Champion/Good. Lehman/I think it sounds good. O'Donnell/Yeah. We're up here. Vanderhoef/Mm-hmm. Karmer/I assume that Grey, we were going to charge Greyhound most of the cost through their lease payments anyhow. Atkins/Yeah. Karmer/So, it's not really saving us that--- Atkins/Well, the state is subsidizing it in many respects, Steve. I mean, that's how this ultimately works out. They're going to get, they don't have to, it is a grant--- O'Donnell/And it would be up-front money. Atkins/Yeah. Yes, and when we go to negotiate with them, the lease is on, the fact that they didn't have to pay that will enter into the equation. Lehman/Well, and that should generate funds to Transit. Atkins/That's the idea, yeah. That's the idea. Through the use of the state's money. Lehman/Right. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Iowa City Council special work session Nov. 24, 2003. November 24, 2003 Special Council Work Session Page 39 Vanderhoef/We'll turn around and give it back to the state for something else. Atkins/Are you OK with it? Lehman/OK. Atkins/Thank you. Lehman/Thank you. O'Donnell/Good night. Lehman/All right, guys. Champion/Is that it? Lehman/That's it. Vanderhoef/That's it. Lehman/We're out of here. Vanderhoef/We're done. O'Donnell/Seven o'clock tomorrow. Champion/Have a nice Thanksgiving everybody--oh, we're here tomorrow. (Laughter) Vanderhoef/That's all right. Lehman/Nice thought. Champion/Have a nice night. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Iowa City Council special work session Nov. 24, 2003.