HomeMy WebLinkAbout1998-04-02 TranscriptionApril 2, 1998 Council Work Session page 1
April 2, 1998
Council Work Session
9:00 AM
Council: Lehman, Champion, Kubby, Norton, O'Donnell, Thomberry, Vanderhoef.
Staff.' Atkins, Helling, Karr, Dilkes, Fowler, Doyle, Logsden, Davidson.
Tapes: 98-48, Side 2; 98-49-50, all.
SEATS 98-48 S1
Lehman/We are here this morning to discuss the SEATS operation .... receive the
recommendation from our committee which is Dee Vanderhoef and Dean
Thomberry ....
Thornberry/Dee is going to present something first ....
Vanderhoef/ .... Dean and I have been your negotiating committee since last April. We, as
well as our counterparts in the county, have put in many hours .... put together a
paratransit package that continues to provide quality service with accountable
fiscal and management standards. The first county proposal for the Iowa City
service was about $610,000. The latest proposal from the county is $528,000. For
FY95,96,97, the paratransit contract called for performance reports. We started to
receive these reports three months ago, six months into the FY98 contract year.
We've made progress folks. Now for the first time, our professional staff has
some information with which they can make assessments about what it would cost
to run a paratransit system riders. It was at this time three months ago that we
began to explore with the staff running our own paratransit system. Dean and I
recommended to you in late January that we begin our own paratransit system for
the following reasons: 1. escalating costs for service ifridership continued to
decline. 2. Double taxation 3. Possibility to do some innovative scheduling and
services with deviated routes. 4. Possibilities to offer better service to all our
transit customers. And 5. Three years of surplus paratransit funds totaling
$250,000, that's a quarter of a million dollars, being deposited into the county's
general fund. Councilors, at least half of that money belongs to Iowa City
taxpayers. This is money from our general fund. We've subsidized the transit
system from our general fund each and every year. At that time, in January, there
were at least four councilors interested in that proposal. You asked our
professional transit staff to prepare a budget for a city owned and operated city
paratransit service that met the federal ADA requirements and that met our current
contracted door to door service. Our transit staff brought back a budget proposal
for Iowa City that included everything for $490,588. In addition, they have
prepared a budget of $97,653 to include Coralville into the system. At this
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meeting, we cotmcilors agreed to explore costs for adding Johnson County riders
into the system if the county requested to join which they subsequently did.
Without complete information about county policies about riders, number of
riders, special contracts, miles driven, travel time, etc., it has been impossible for
our professional staff to prepare a budget for their service. This represents the
history of many months dealing with issues that are not new. They are issues well
documented in the transit files for over ten years. Now to the recent history. Mr.
Bolkom's letter to the council on February 26 put into writing the
acknowledgment by the county that they operate the paratransit system, and I
quote, as a human service and not strictly a transit system, end quote. This brings
into the contracting equation another cost factor that needs further definition and
discussion. In this same letter, Mr. Bolkom continues with the statement, and I
quote, in the board's discussion of SEATS this morning, it was suggested that it
might be helpful for the city and county to explore joint governance. And
continued by saying, hopefully together we can build on the success of the
SEATS program and improve the service, end quote. And for that, I thank the
county, whoever had the idea, I think it's a great idea. On March 24, the county
negotiating committee delivered a contract proposal to Dean and myself and
asked for a joint meeting. We met with them the next day, the 25th, to clarify the
points of their proposal. On the 26th, the county called again to amend two dollar
figures that they had misstated in their original proposal. On March 31st, we
submitted our response to their proposal and a counterproposal for consideration
and asked for a negotiating committee meeting on April 1. We stated in our cover
letter to them that we knew that they would have some questions and we wanted
to walk them through the proposal. We presumed that they would have these
questions for clarification. It seemed reasonable to us that this information be
exchanged as had been previously been done during negotiations. Then we could
bring clear information back to our representative board or council. If the
information that I received is reasonably correct, the supervisors chose to sit and
ask questions of one another and make interpretations on our proposal without
grounding it with the authors of the proposal. Once again we may have
misinformation being played out in the public domain rather than at the
negotiating table where discussion can take place and information grounded with
fact. To me this is irresponsible behavior and I apologize to SEATS consumers
for any discomfort or concern this made have caused them. Throughout these
negotiations, I have tried to be professional and consistent with my information
and to listen to the concerns of the consumers and what is in their best interest.
One thing is very clear to me is that partial and/or incomplete information is
equally wrong as misinformation. It disturbs me when I see letters to the editor
from county residents that ask the city not to take their transportation away from
them. You and I know that transportation is solely the responsibility of the
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county. And the same kind of letter coming from city residents. The truth is that
the federal law demands that Iowa City provide a comparable transit system for
the disabled as our fixed bus route system. And that includes 3/4 of a mile of any
fixed route in the city. As policy, this council has expanded that to include all of
Iowa City corporate limits. Furthermore, in case you missed it early, the present
contract signed by friend Don Sehr states that Iowa City riders will be given door
to door service. Door to door service is not something the drivers necessarily do
because they care, although I do believe that they care, it is something that they do
because the contract states, this is Iowa City's policy. And we are gladly paying
for the service for those consumers who need assistance to the door. The federal
law only required curb to curb service. I don't know how many more myths are
out there, but I do know that doing business in the public domain without factual
information is dangerous and certainly damaging to the consumers. If I have
misled any of you in any way, I apologize. I am still committed to negotiating and
moving forward and providing the best service for the Iowa City residents for the
best price for the taxpayers. Having said all that, I would like to briefly walk you
through the entire proposal before the discussion begins since this is a package
proposal and isolating comments will lead to more confusion rather than
clarification. During that process I will ask Dean and staff to jump in ifI misspeak
or in anything less than clear on any of the points since we have all discussed
them.
Norton/How about a point of clarification? In your comments, you said the letter of
March 24th to us was from the county negotiators. That was from the county
Board .... not from the subcommittee...
Vanderhoef/It was the proposal.
Norton/It was from the Board and our March 31 st was from our subcommittee to their
subcommittee.
Vanderhoef/Fine, thank you. The first part of this proposal .... we have stated directly
what was proposed in that letter from the county and then our response to it. The
primary part of their proposal is the dollar figure for the annual contract ....at
$528,000.
Norton/Did you clear up the question of the 1046, 1076, 10067 In other words, you said
there was a misstatement in there in the March 24th letter that was corrected on
March 26th.
Vanderhoef/And that is down here and the response to it.
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Norton/Okay.
Vanderhoef/And I don't have any information why or what their confusion was. We just
took their word that they changed the figure and the figure of $1,016,528 figure
was incorrect and the total SEATS budget for the county for FY98 is $1,076,000.
We are proposing a complete contract for $500,000 for FY99. The paratransit
provisor may choose to do at their expense and at their discretion as long as they
concur with all of our ADA requirements and our council requirements. The cab
service would be their responsibility. If they choose to use it, then they will pay
for it. If they choose not to use it, that is their choice. Their second point was
contract adjustments and how to make those adjustments and they propose the
SEATS drivers' annual cost of living adjustments and later in the document
will...show up in our proposals. Johnson County keeps all fare revenue... We are
anticipating $53,784 for next year in revenue... We factored that in when we put
our proposal together of the $500,000 .... That is still a number sitting here ..... The
county keeps the fares with the $500,000 price tag. If the $500,000 price tag is
changed, then we have to talk about fares again.
Norton/ ....$500,000 and they are also keeping the fares.
Vanderhoef/That is exactly right. Their request is for a five year agreement. We are
proposing a 12 month contract.. automatically renewed for two years... unless
either part notifies the other of their intent to terminate or revise the agreement.
That notification must be 60 days prior to the conclusion of the existing
agreement. If the agreement is terminated, the paratransit provider will be required
to continue the service at the monthly rate of the current contract for six months.
The advisory committee consisting of consumers from Iowa City, Coralville, and
Johnson County, they suggested that we agree that an advisory committee will be
created .... Re-allocation of surplus at the end of the fiscal year will be based on
contributions, based on total expenditures. Similarly, any budget shortfalls would
be born by the contracting entities in the same percentage as they contributed to
the total system .... it won't be relevant under our proposal.
Norton/
Vanderhoef/Any policy changes that create a significant increase or decrease in ridership
shall be grounds for opening the contract .....we defined it as an act of a legislative
body ....
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The city's proposals: Paratransit provider agrees to exercise due diligence in
securing vehicles and any other capital assets available through ECCOG and other
available state or federal agencies. As you know, we do package requests through
the ECCOG for all of our transit and that's part of our transit program that we do
through JCCOG.
Kubby/Has that been a problem? I mean is there a reason why this element is in here?
Vanderhoef/Well, it will show up in the next one. It's not a problem, I don't think, with
what you're saying, but we'll get to it. It is understood the paratransit provider
leases from the ECCOG the paratransit vehicles, and the paratransit will provide a
schedule of leases that the city may utilize those vehicles to supplement the city's
fixed route system. Lease that schedule cost will be calculated by included routine
operational costs such as full maintenance, insurance, etc. The paratransit provider
no overhead shall be reflected in these lease schedules. The City of Iowa City will
have their own overhead and will be running those vehicles under our transit
system. The paratransit provider will agree to submit their budget to an annual
independent audit. That audit information will be available to the city. That's
pretty straight forward.
Norton/I want to go back to number two again. Does the city leases the buses, are they
loaned or what's their exact arrangement when they're using them
Vanderhoef/That arrangement would be worked out with the leases that come out of
ECCOG and-
Norton/To permit that shift.
Vanderhoef/To permit that to happen.
Thomberry That doesn't seem to be a problem.
Vanderhoef/In the current paratransit uses private vendors rather than their own
employees for maintenance and has budgeted an amount for that. The city would
prepare and submit a proposal to maintain paratransit vehicles for the use of our
own maintenance shops. This proposal will occur within one year of the date of
the execution of the agreement, but no later than June 30, 1999.
Norton/That would just be a separate deal.
Lehman/Right.
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Vanderhoef/City of Iowa City currently provides for the storage of paratransit vehicles
and employees support services of transit facilities on Riverside Drive. The
current charge to SEATS is $10,000 per year. city will continue to provide for the
storage of vehicles, employee parking, and the use of the transit facilities for a
break room, rest room, and other matters that might be pertinent to the comfort
and general environment of the paratransit provider employees. A capitol
investment in the transit facilities done on behalf of the paratransit provider
employees will be done, so at the cost of the paratransit provider. The washing of
paratransit vehicles will be at cost on a per wash basis.
Lehman/I got a question, before we go any further. Since we're currently providing these
support services for a cost of $10,000 per year, is that $10,000 reflected in the
$500,000? I mean the net, net. Is that $500,000 net net, or would they still be
paying the $10,0007
Woman/They'd still be paying the $10-.
Lehman/All right.
Vanderhoef/The excess funds that occurred in FY 1997 from the City of Iowa City
contract to paratransit service will be returned to Iowa City. The amount and
timing of the funds will be determined by negotiation. That has to do with the
$102,000 surplus this past year. We're not asking for return of the surplus from
the two previous years for that. The provision ofparatransit services will be
established as a none for profit corporation or some similar type transit authority
under Iowa law. Governments for this not for profit corporation will rest with a
board of directors. Their responsibilities will include administrative oversight and
policy direction in accordance with terms and conditions with parties contracting
with the authorities. The board will be made up of two representatives from
Johnson County Board of Supervisors, two representatives from Iowa City city
council and one representative from Coralville city council or their designee. Each
fiscal year this board will cause to be prepared a general operating budget
estimate. This information will be made available to the various parties who
contract with the Board. These would include the cities of U Heights, Coralville,
Iowa City, as well as Johnson County, Goodwill, Systems Unlimited and so forth.
This information will be utilized to assist in the development of budgets
associated with paratransit services as being necessary by the contracting
agencies. Prior to the establishment of the not-for-profit corporation or authority,
Johnson County Board of Supervisors will prepare or cause to be prepared a
formal policy document which outlines all of their general operating and
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administrative policies. This document will be the operational plan for the
paratransit policies will include but are limited to dispatching, scheduling,
maintenance and all policies associated with ride responsibilities deemed pertinent
to the management of the paratransit system. This operational plan shall be
prepared within six months from the date of the execution of the contract. The
operating plan will guide the day to day operations as well as serve as major
planning document for future paratransit operations and services. This operational
plan will be further developed into performance standards requested by the
contracting agencies. 9. Any contracting agency may request an audit that will be
at their expense. The requesting person will pay for this. It is understood that a
door to door policy of paratransit service will be provided if requested by the
passengers. Other contracting agencies are not subject to the policy position of the
City of Iowa City. So Coralville can make their own arrangements and so forth.
And it is the responsibility of the paratransit provider to determine this service
requirement accordingly. Any substantial amendment to this door to door service
policy will be initiated only after consultation with the Iowa City city council. The
policy is substantially as has been in our previous contract. it is further understood
that the paratransit provider will fulfill all pertinent ADA requirements on behalf
of the city and certify full compliance to the federal government. In order to
assess the cost for services beyond the door to door policy, the following will
occur. There are currently 1,300 individual certified individuals certified in Iowa
City for paratransit service. We estimate 860 of these individuals, excuse me-
1,300 individuals in using SEATS total. 860 of those are Iowa City people. At the
end of one year the paratransit provider will report to the city the incidents and
circumstances by way of any reasonable means in order to identify human
services beyond that which is identified as door to door policy. The provision of
transportation services of Iowa City is substantially funded by state and Transit
Levy and is restricted to transit services. I am going to ask Steve to just walk
through the possibilities of what is available through a transit authority. Just state
it and then they will understand where we are coming from.
Atkins/In the law the state in effect, encourages the creation of these joint agreements ....
as a matter of public policy and there are two.. pertinent issues to the creation of
this authority. First of all... actual budget expenditures. We levy $.95 for a Transit
Levy and that Transit Levy is spelled out in the law is specifically for the
maintenance of a municipal transit system. In calculating the operating budget of
our public transit system which incorporates SEATS, when you remove the
General Fund and the Parking contributions, there still is clearly a portion of the
budget .... SEATS is financed by a portion of the $.95 tax. I simply bring this to
your attention as a matter of caution because the law is pretty straight forward. It
says municipal transit system ....
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The second point is the establishment of these authorities provides for some
unique debt issues... We do not contribute from our General Fund directly into a
system of payments where we can accumulate cash for our share of capital
equipment, both on our fixed route system and since we do pay a portion...
SEATS... for capital equipment. We are all very aware that the federal
government has clearly indicated they have some reservations about the 80/20
sharing with respect to capital equipment. By having an authority, you have the
ability to issue general corporate purpose bonds that are not subject to
referendum .... incentive for the creation of these authorities ....
Norton/You are thinking of an independent authority? ....
Atkins/I am indicating that the proposal put forth by Dee and Dean as a not-for-profit
corporation or authority in accordance with whatever the law describes it to be .... I
am saying there are benefits to the authority that accrue to the city.
Vanderhoef/12. The weekly performance reports will continue to be required and will
include at a minimum the following report... passengers per hour.. productivity...
no show reports... slack time... trips dispatch... ridership .... late trip report... Will
be due for the preceding week .... Paratransit provider will prepare and administer
and annual rider's survey ....Then we have the following list representing the
description of ride policy ....An Iowa City begins in Iowa City and ends in Iowa
City, Coralville or University Heights .... Coralville ride... University Heights
ride... A rural ride begins or ends in the non-urbanized area or is a county resident
riding within the urbanized area ....
Kubby. And that is not how it is now.
Thomberry/That is exactly how it is now ....
Vanderhoef/Just to be sure that it is very clear...
Lehman/Thank you, Dee. Dean, do you have comments?
Thornberry/Being on that committee for 11 months now .... I am not quite as restrictive ....
three major points .... First thing is what does it cost to city residents... for
paratransit service... they have said... We really didn't know .... During this
negotiating period we had the Transit Director try to determine what it would cost
us to do the system. That is why the reports were needed .... Joe Fowler and the
City Manager have indicated... we could do the system for $490,000 .... Iowa
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City .... our portion .... We got a figure... I think we are in the ballpark .... Why
$500,000? Nice round number... more than we could do it for .... On the money
that is left over on the last contract ....It was not in our contract to get it back, let
them have it ....
Second point is a multi-year contract .... Let's have a multi-contract. They would
like a five year contract .... I have got no problem with that. After three years, let's
take a look at their proposal .... Sally and Joe wanted to have a multi-governmental
agency .... We put in one proposal of how that could work .... Meaning that it is an
organization that could run paratransit ....
Kubby/So you are suggesting a five year contract and after the third year-
Thomberry/Within three years, set up this agency .....
Kubby/Or are you saying explore it ....
Thornberry/They proposed it, we thought geez, not a bad idea ....
Kubby/Are you saying it has to happen within three years or that we explore it within
three years?
Thornberry/We can explore it within the first six months... in three years we get back
together .... explore it... within three years we have got to get together...
Norton/
Thornberry/Initiate it anytime... make a decision by the end of three years.
Lehman/...at the end of three years, the city and county would look at this possibility of
joint governance .... they would have the option of finishing out the last two years?
Thomberry/Sure ....
Lehman/
Thornberry/Let's make a report at no later than at the end of three years ....
Champion/I just want to clarify... independent governing body?
Thomberry/Yeah .... I would have them explain more of what they meant ....
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Norton/Is this restrictive to paratransit? Or are you talking about a larger context?
Thomberry/Paratransit is first ....
Norton/...metro transit authority ....
Thornberry/...start with paratransit ....maybe it could be expanded ....
Kubby/But be completed separate is not a good idea .... there needs to be attachments to
accountable elected...
Thornberry/
Kubby/
Thornberry/Some of these other things .... supplement .... annual independent audit, they
already do that .... We are paying $500,000 for paratransit for the year... They can
do with whatever they want .... They can fix their vehicles from whatever .... As far
as the $10,000 per year... these are just immaterial things basically ....We are also
washing their vehicles ....
Lehman/That is kind of a non-issue.
Kubby/Could we maybe- I mean, Dee did a really good job of going through... you are
repeating what Dee did.
Thornberry/I am just saying that I don't agree with all the points that are put out here. I
think there are three major things and let's go ahead and do it.
Lehman/All right, before we start the discussion ....Do this... orderly fashion... There are
some things that are very high priority ....There are key things that we have to
decide and make offers to the county on ....Other things... some details can be
worked out. If the details are not critical to the contract being signed, I would
rather do those later in the discussion.
I think the first thing I would like to talk about .... the cost of the service .... that
precipitated the whole negotiations... offer here is for $500,000. Net, net, net. The
county keeps all of the revenues... This is the city signing the contract for service
for paratransit riders, the people of Iowa City, to a net cost to the city of $500,000.
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Thomberry/This figure came .... negotiations ....we found that we can do it for that ....
Kubby/The service being provided is a different kind of service that we were talking
about providing for that $490,000.
Lehman/I think there is disagreement on that.
Kubby/ ....I don't want to be stated as a fact that we could do it for $490-
Champion/
Lehman/I think this is a very important point .... same level of service... $490,000. I think
that is a very important number as far as I am concerned .... Do we, Karen doesn't.
Do the rest of us accept the $490- as a reasonable figure that our staff put
together?
Champion/I want to know what she considers not the same service.
Kubby/A couple of things. One... fewer vehicles.
Champion/I am talking about individual service. I don't want to hear about fewer
vehicles.
Kubby/What it does .... with having fewer vehicles on the road at any one time, the same
number of fides may be given .... but ! think people will be on... longer duration
because there are fewer vans and that the same quality of rides will not be given ....
Champion/Door to door service has never been in question .... When that proposal was
made for $490,000, to me .... That that was only Iowa City ridership within Iowa
City. I think the quality of service might even be higher ....Of course we would
need fewer vehicles ....
Kubby/The difference between 7 vehicles and 12 vehicles .... 80% of the fides... We need
the 12 vehicles... peak times ....
O'Donnell/We don't have anything to substantiate that statement.
Vanderhoef/ ....$490- was very specifically only for the fides that took place in Iowa
City ....
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Lehman/For purposes of this discussion .... in arriving at the number which has been
arrived at, we have used the number $490- as a legitimate figure for providing the
same level of service that paratransit has provided. Karen, you disagree.
Kubby/I think there are a lot of costs that aren't in that budget .... are not accounted for ....
That was put together in a couple of weeks .... It is a complicated thing.
Lehman/If we are going to use that as a base figure... derived from information given to
us by the county. We have a staff that says they fell comfortable with that number.
I have absolutely no basis for saying I think that is a good number or bad number
other than I think we have qualified people who put the number together.
Norton/I am not totally satisfied with the $490-.... subtract from that 53% of whatever
the county is putting in from their General Fund .... account for double taxation ....
Then you come to about $500,000. I find it... depends on where you start. But I
am saying I am getting comfortable with $500,000 from quasi-independent ....
Lehman/Your point is you arrived at the same number ....
Norton/Given some of the statements that have been issued from the county about the
number... I would not want a number that is going to make them manifestly
uncomfortable in the future ....
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Thomberry/A side note to Dee's comment. I have been talking several times with
Christine Denburg and she gave me some names and some people who had been
doing paratransit business for a long long time and I called and had a nice
conversation with Pam Ward ..... Ottumwa for the last 25 years ....she has never
heard... the term tour minutes.
Kubby/We have known that.
Thornberry/...if you try to get software using tour minutes, you are not going to get it
because people don't use tour minutes. I said what do you use? She said we use
passenger mile and hours of service and she runs the paratransit service in
southern Iowa for ten counties at a cost of $700,000 a year ....
Norton/
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Kubby/This element of having the $500,000 be the net cost without the cab contract is a
new element that has never been on the table before .... saying cab contract is not *
out issue anymore .... They are using cabs because we said we have to use cabs.
Thomberry/
Kubby/To provide the level of service that Iowa City currently have, there is some small
use of cabs.
Thornberry/...some of the riders, they don't want to use cabs.
Lehman/
Kubby/The contract is one amount but the actual use is another amount .... very difficult
for most riders to use the cabs .... don't get the same quality of rides.
Thornberry/If I were doing that I would give them a paratransit vehicle to use instead of
acab ....
Lehman/Let Karen finish.
Kubby/Because the cab contract was the city's desire .... If we want to have the same
level of overall service-
Thomberry/(Can't hear).
Kubby/I wish you would listen to what I am saying and just let me finish .... That if you
have an overall level of service that includes that small amount of cab rides and
now we are saying for less money you have to provide... same level of service...
How is that going to be done? It is a new element that has been thrown out on the
table... Doesn't seem like fair negotiations ....
Norton/What is the upshot or bottom line of your comments?
Kubby/We should continue with the cab supplement .... same level .... or... we have to
give the county more resources to supply those fides that are currently being
supplied. So either I believe we should keep the current cab service or we should
say $510- or $520 ....to have the county be able to provide those fides instead of
the cab service ....
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Champion/You are assuming the county can't do it with that amount of money. I guess
that bothers me. I think you are a city council member and not a Board of
Supervisor member.
Kubby/I am talking about the quality and quantity of rides ....
O'Donnell/ ....we have added $20,000 for cab rides. We utilized 6,000 cab rides last
year .... That figure is figured in there ....
Lehman/...anything can be put on the table ....
Kubby/I think at this late date, changing the rules of the game is not getting closer ....
putting more layers on.
Norton/ .... differences of opinions... cab costs... embedded in the $500,000. Aren't we
drafting a formal response to the 24th letter from the county?
Lehman/This is exactly what we are doing. Informal response .... This is an informal
meeting.
Norton/ ....they would be in a position to rebut ....
O'Donnell/That is negotiation .... I think we should see how many of us favor $500,000.
Lehman/...If the county is to provide cab rides at their discretion .... they could use as
much or as little cab rides as they would like .... I am comfortable with the
$500,000 .... There was on the table the excess payment that the city has made in
previous years .... Informal agreement on $510,000 .....
Thornberry/ ....informally ....
Lehman/There has been .... our share of the overpayment was in the neighborhood of
$49,000. That was given to us .... There has been talk about that money being
returned .... We really need to start with a clean slate here. Dean's point is we have
talked about this $50,000 .... If in fact there is agreement at $510- Why mess with
the $50,000? Instead of asking for the $50,000 back, take that $50,000 as a
$10,000 reduction in service for the term of the contract. The bottom line is
essentially the same any way.
Norton/Just take $500- and forget about the $50-?
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Lehman/That is correct.
Kubby/The problem with doing that is that whenever the contract ends, we look at the
base number in the current contract as the beginning of negotiation and that will
be lower than what we are really talking about ....
Lehman/So you prefer the $510- with the $50,000 being returned?
Kubby/No, I am not attached to the $50- being retumed. I like the idea... capital fund...
Lehman/The $49,000 is the city's share .... Do we have a feeling on that? Do we prefer
the $510- with a $50,000 return?
Thornberry/I don't think they have got the $50,000 to return .... Let's just forget about the
$49,000 .... Let's just do $500,000, forget about the money and go on.
Lehman/Do we have any kind of consensus on that?
Champion/Right.
O'Donnell/I think we do.
(All talking).
Norton/If they don't like it, they can respond ....
Lehman/Dee? We have six people who agree to that and one who does not.
Kubby/My other concern about us finding a nice round number is that I would like us
then to figure out some fair share basis that we can agree to for long term .... We
are in this place now... made deals about money ....without it really being attached
to anything rational. It was a political expediency ....
Lehman/Let me say one thing .... first of all .... all know more about SEATS .... better
understanding and greater appreciation for that service. I was involved three years
ago .... There is no formula that I know of that has been able to be contrived by the
city or by the county... where you can accurately compute and attribute cost to the
city, county... We have tried and tried and tried .... I don't think we can do it ....
tried diligently to come up with a fair way, a fair formula .... At this point in time,
it doesn't exist .... We do have... an offer .... We have a perspective from which we
can move .... six folks here feel that the $500,000 is a reasonable figure.
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Norton/ .... I still think there has to be some reasonable basis .... This is not rocket science
folks.
Kubby/People all over the country use a formula based on either head count or miles ....
Thornberry/You can't leave a five year contract with no means of increasing $500,000 a
year... cost of living increase ....
Lehman/Would you write the first one on the board. We appear to agree to $500,000.
Now we are going to talk about annual adjustments to the contract.
Thomberry/I would propose- If there is anything simpler than CPI, let me know... Just
increase by CPI or some other formula .... There has to be some increase per
year ....
Vanderhoef/Okay, however- What we have asked in our proposal is for... an audit... a
complete budget .... plus the information that we have asked for and are now
getting .... From those figures, that is when we can come up with a figure and it
doesn't have anything to do with formula... It has to do with raw numbers ....
Champion/Can we be careful that we are not making decisions that respond to the
contract that we are going to give them?... I do have to get to work. I did not plan
on an all day meeting .... responding to their response. Deal with what we are
going to send them and have another meeting to discuss their response because we
don't know how they are going to respond.
Lehman/ .... talking about a multi-year contract. You need to say how we will adjust that
contract .... We have said consistently .... numbers... they have had a difficult
time... I am not at all sure that the kinds of numbers we receive... are especially
good numbers. I don't think you leave the adjustment at the end of the year to be
based on the information that comes from these reports and figures... If that
$500,000 is a fair price ....increase annually on a CPI basis is probably about as
fair as there is.
O'Donnell/Let's go, that is it ....
Norton/I don't have any problem.
Thomberry/That is fine.
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Champion/That is already in here.
O'Donnell/Wow, we made a decision. Next point.
Thornberry/We are working through this.
Lehman/The contract will be increased annually by an amount equal to the cost of living
index.
Thomberry/And I think there is an agreement for a five year, yes?
Champion/Yes.
Kubby/Yes.
(All talking).
Vanderhoef/I am not comfortable with a five year, no way.
Lehman/That is going to be the next point ....
[Council Break]
Lehman/Length of the contract.
(All talking).
Lehman/Folks, Dee is not back yet. My intent... what I feel is most important that we
accomplish here is to put together the bricks that it is going to take to put this
thing together .... worry about growth in the system .... If we can't agree on the
basics, then we have nothing to talk about. I think we have got to come up with
something that is acceptable to our cohorts at the county ....There are details... that
we are even going to try to iron out today.
Champion/I also think that we can set the direction of this contract ....I don't think it is
up to us to actually write the contract.
Lehman/It is not.
Champion/Let's set the policy of where the contract is going.
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Lehman/There is basically very little disagreement between the city and the county
except as it relates to the price of the contract ....Now we are talking about the
term of the contract... very critical ....
Kubby/I would like to add another element... Repeat the point that we want an advisory
committee. A five year contract, that within three years... explore the issue of a
different form of governance for SEATS and that there be an advisory committee.
Thomberry/
(All talking).
Lehman/Karen just said... we agree that we are interested in looking at joint governance
or partnerships or whatever the term happens to be .... This process needs to be in
place and by the end of the third year we assess that evaluation. If we are happy
with the progress... we renew the contract for two more years .... By three years we
will have looked at that by our mutual satisfaction or either party can notify the
other to opt out ....
Vanderhoef/You are saying we will have totally explored joint governance?
Lehman/To out satisfaction and theirs. Now that gives you total protection for both
parties. If either of us are not satisfied with the progress we are making, either of
us can opt out .... guarantees that this proposal will be good for three years ....
Thomberry/
Lehman/Is there agreement on the council to that?
Champion/Yes.
Vanderhoef/Yes, I can go as long as we can opt out if we aren't making progress towards
joint government ....
Norton/What do you mean by opting out?
Vanderhoef/Opting out of the contract at the end of three years .... I am talking about
opting out at the end of three years ifI am not satisfied with the way we have
come forward with the joint govemance.
(All talking).
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Lehman/After three years, the county and the city will sit down and evaluate the progress
that we have made in the joint governance thing .... At that point in time, either the
city or the county can say look, the joint governance is not working the way we
thought it would and because of that, we opt out of the contract.
(All talking).
Thornberry/...I proposed a five year contract, the first three years, stating immediately, I
want to hear what the county's idea was about joint governance. See if we can
work that out .... By the end of three years, we are going to know whether joint
governance is going to work... If it doesn't work, we are still got two more years
in the contract .....
Kubby/It has to be a joint decision ....
(All talking).
Lehman/One at a time.
Norton/...we are not going to back out of the contract after three years. It is just a matter
of how it is operated ....
Vanderhoef/We keep the option of opting out at the end of three years. Everybody has
got to have an option of moving out of a contract ....
Thornberry/ ....we need to go with a five year.
Vanderhoef/I am okay with the five as long as I have the option of going out at three.
(All talking).
Lehman/If we have a deadline in the contract... at the end of three years ....three year
deadline, then something will probably occur ....
Kubby/Let's have a three year contract.
Lehman/The advantage of a five year is that if we both decide yes, we want a joint
governance or no we don't .... we don't know what the terms of the next two
years ....
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Norton/Over three we are not talking about backing out ....
Kubby/If for some reason we have not done out job in three years... contract broken with
that wording .... Gives us a guidelines ....
Vanderhoef/I think that if we are committed to working on this, we can have this
question of joint governance answered in one year .... I think people need to be a
little more aggressive... either it will happen or won't happen at end of three
years .... It may go on five years... I am committed to moving forward with this
exploration .... I think we can do it faster ....
Thornberry/It is a five year contract with a deadline for three years ....got a five year
commitment ....
Kubby/...city manager ....
Lehman/This is an action on the part of the county Board and this body... deciding...
joint governance...
Kubby/
O'Donnell/
Kubby/We don't trust each other and that is a problem.
Lehman/One of the things we are not going to do this morning is talk about how much
we trust or don't trust each other .... I know how we feel.
Kubby/Another level there is some reality here ....
Lehman/I have not heard a cross word said between us and the supervisors... Getting
back to this three or five year ....
Thomberry/At the end of three years, the decision will be made about joint governance.
That is the goal deadline .... I want a deadline... but it is still a five year contract.
Atkins/Let me try to interpret what I heard you say. $500,000 .... This $500,000 for the
life of the agreement will be adjusted annually based upon the CPI. For the life of
the agreement.
Vanderhoef/What happens if ridership goes down and-
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Atkins/$500,000 annual CPI adjustment for the life of the agreement. The life of the
agreement is five years. The first three years of the agreement, there will a series
of decision points. They include joint govemance, schedule of vehicles to be used,
leases... substantially the items that we have outlined that are important to us ....
For example, I really need to get that issue of the leases for the vehicles decided
because that has a great bearing upon our fixed system. I would like to see that
dealt with sooner than later. That there be a series of decision points decided. If at
the end of three years you will have agreed to some and maybe not others, you
still have a two year obligation... at five years you walk if you choose.
Lehman/
Atkins/You may end up finding renewal language depending upon these decision points
anyway. The commitment to the county: $500-, annual adjustments, life of the
agreement a series of decision points ....
Norton/One key point is ultimately on the joint matter.
Atkins/Your choice on how fast you want to make these decisions .... clearly joint
governance is one of them. That is what I heard.
Lehman/You heard right.
Kubby/Does the lease agreement have to be in the SEATS contract? ....
Atkins/You have a choice to make.. decision points may be in the form of a side letter
between the mayor and chair of the board saying here are the issues that during
this period of time we will choose to reach resolution .....You commit yourself to
a program of work during the terms of the contract ....
Lehman/May I suggest... appears to me that these are the points that have been our
biggest contention between city and county .... have agreement on basic service
with the county ....
Kubby/...more than half of that advisory committee be made up of riders ....
Lehman/I don't care ....
Kubby/That we put that value out there... explicitly ....
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Champion/I can't agree to that until I know how many people are going to be on that
advisory committee .... what kind of representation we are going to need.
Lehman/I would concur... advisory committee made up of at least half of the people ....
Thornberry/...let them go to the county and tell them what they want.
Lehman/We will be involved and insist that there be an advisory committee as part of the
contract.
Thomberry/
Kubby/Currently we have our own eligibility criteria about SEATS... Are we giving up
all of that stuff..
Atkins/No ....
Kubby/ .... We might want to go to that county advisory committee... about eligibility
requirements .... At some point I want us to have access to the county advisory
committee or have our own ....
Vanderhoef/Someone from the city needs to be at those meetings ....
Thornberry/
Kubby/I want us to be receptive to the county's advisory committee about the issues that
we have control over.
Thornberry/...council's policy that limits who rides ....someone from the council should
be involved in that decision.
Lehman/ .... We make this offer with the understanding that we are looking at service ....
May be changes in service .... This offer is for continuation of service as we now
know it. Now what is the starting date of the contract should they decide to accept
this?
Kubby/Impossible, we don't have a contract.
Thornberry/We have got to meet- The negotiating team has got to meet with their
negotiating team... We can't put a date on it until we agree with the points.
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Lehman/Suggest that we get this typed up and prepared and you present it at your earliest
convenience .... Can that be done? I would like to ask the Board have a preliminary
response... within a week ....
Norton/I don't know what level of detail... I am still kind of concerned about several
issues .... changes in ridership.
Atkins/Changes in ridership- I thought it was dealt with under the policy statement... If
you want to change ridership, that is your statement. If the county wishes to
change ridership policy and they... decide that. They also have to put a dollar
figure on it ....
Norton/How much is this am I blessing?
Lehman/We are not blessing the details, only the service as it is currently being
provided ....
Kubby/
Norton/...how you deal with surpluses ....
Lehman/That has been addressed.
Norton/
Thomberry/Dee, you can go on what-ifs ....
Lehman/...We are looking at four things: $500,000, annual CPI adjustment, the contract
term and the service as we now know it. Is that agreeable?
Atkins/Remember, throughout the proposal, there are a couple... statements .... that is in
there. There is going to be no unilateral change of policy.
Lehman/Talking about .... an agreement on the basics upon which we can build the
contract ....
Vanderhoef/
Lehman/...need to be very clear... honor that for five years ....I think we have got to be
very clear on that.
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Dilkes/Ernie, do I understand your direction is go back to the county with these four
points, not what is within this proposal? I think that is not clear.
Lehman/My proposal is we go back with these which appear to be a basic thing.
Kubby/And if they said yes to that, then we go on for more detail.
Atkins/Would you like a side letter drafter as a component of this and show it as a draft?
Norton/Some things will be discussed by the subcommittee in light of these.
Lehman/
Thornberry/ .... all we are trying to do is get agreement on the major points here .... This is
not the whole contract .... They don't want to make a plan. Review the tapes from
yesterday of the Board of Supervisors meeting to see that ....The major points we
have to propose to them ....
Kubby/I just think that having the negotiating team deal with some of the other issues is
not going to be productive .... I think if the county can agree to these things, we
need to have another meeting to go through these other details. It should be the
whole body. The negotiating team strategy is not functioning very well ....
Vanderhoef/ .... got back and see what we can accomplish. If we come up with some
sticking points, bring them back to you ....
(All talking).
Lehman/I have no problem with our negotiating team putting together what they
perceive to be points to bring to us ....I have not problem with the committee
making recommendations to us ....
Norton/ ....These points are sent to the county from the council, right?
Lehman/They will be taken by Dee and Dean.
Norton/...Does the county respond to the subcommittee or back to us?
Lehman/I don't care ....
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Vanderhoef/To us .... If it is end back to us ....we can get it clarified before we bring it to
you.
Norton/
Vanderhoef/We will come back ....
Norton/We just won't to spin our wheels if there is a real problem .... come back to us.
Thomberry/If you want to meet here weekly, have at it .... Let us do our job ....
Lehman/Dean .... council is pretty much decided on those three points. If there is any
substantial deviation from those points... that needs to come back ....
Vanderhoef/I will entertain phone calls... give Dean or myself a call ....
Lehman/
O'Donnell/Do we not have an advisory committee?
Atkins/Unofficial ....
O'Donnell/I think there is a list of people ....
Lehman/That advisory committee was put together when we were talking about
possibility of city providing there own service. There will be an advisory
committee that will function... comprised of city and county representatives .....
(All talking).
O'Donnell/I want this body to be partially responsible... This will be presented by our
committee to the Board of Supervisors.
Atkins/Committee to committee.
Lehman/They will report back to our committee .... You will make proposals to us .....
CHANGE TAPE TO REEL 98-49 SIDE 2
Lehman/Thank you folks, very much. Hopefully we are making progress.
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FLIP CHART:
· $500,000
· Annual CPI adjustmeres
· 3 Year decision point
-5 year agreement
Committee to committee prior to full board.
Adjourned: 10:45 AM
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