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HomeMy WebLinkAbout2004-07-21 TranscriptionJuly 21, 2004 Special Council Work Session Page 1 July 21, 2004 Special Council Work Session 7:00 pm Council: Bailey, Champion, Elliott, Lehman, O'Donnell, Vanderhoef Staff: Atkins, Kan', Dilkes, Franklin, Howard, Miklo, McCafferty, Helling Planning and Zoning Commission: Freerks, Brooks, Hansen, Anciaux, Koppes TAPES: 04-45, SIDE 2; 04-48, SIDE 1 and SIDE 2 PLANNING & ZONING Franklin/This is a joint meeting of the Planning and Zoning Commission and the City Council. The City Council is arrayed in the front here, and I think the Commission is scattered throughout the crowd. I'm going to give a little introduction and then Bob is going to take over and show you some of the slides from the survey. First of all what we're going to do tonight is to share with you the results of the Visual Preference Survey. We're not going to talk about specific proposals. That is, how the survey will be used specifically. It's just to give you the results of the survey tonight. That's a next step. A couple of provisos. The Visual Preference Survey is not a scientific instrument. It is an avenue of public input. It is very similar to any kind of written or oral comments that the Planning and Zoning Commission and the Council will receive, relative to the Development Code. So, we need to look at it as a piece of information that decision-makers can use as they proceed through the process of revising our Development Code, and they will use that public input as they use any other public input. It'll be taken into consideration and filtered through their particular thought processes and will go through another public process to have this all come out in the end. As I said, the survey is not scientific. It is getting the opinions of; it's a measure of the opinions of the people who have chosen to be part of this. That's kind of generally the way Democracy works. Those people who participate, who play the game, influence the outcome. In this particular process, we've had more people involved in this than we have in many of our planning processes. There were 420 people who participated in this survey. Just a little profile, 91% of them are homeowners; 50% have lived in Iowa City for thirty years or more. It's generally a middle-income population that took the survey, between $50,000 and $75,000 annual income. 16% ofthe people who participated are people who are associated with the Home Builder's Association or the Iowa City Area Association of Realtors. We had seven sessions in which the survey was done. Six of those were for the general public; one of those was specifically for the Home Builder's Association and the Association of Realtors. One outcome that we have observed from this, is that there is strong agreement between all of the people who took this survey, as to what is desirable in Iowa City, of all seven sessions. During the sessions, seventy images were shown. People were asked to score between a minus five and plus five, based on their reaction to that image, and whether they thought it was appropriate for Iowa City. On the slides that you're going to be shown tonight, you will see the scores on the This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Iowa City Council special work session July 21, 2004. July 21, 2004 Special Council Work Session Page 2 bottom of those slides. There are three different scores - one for the general public, one for the session of the Home Builder's and Association of Realtors, and then a combined score of both. It's the combined score of both that is the important part. General public, Home Builder's and Association of Realtors, and then overall score. Now, in the score, you see there is a score and the standard deviation. (mumbled speaking from audience) Miklo/It's really not possible to raise it, but there are written copies available after the meeting. Franklin/If you want to stand up to see that. If you can't ...... sorry, but the projector is up in the ceiling and so there's no way we can adjust it. (mumbled speaking from audience) Miklo/Yeah, we will once we .... Franklin/Yeah, this is just, this is an overview for the beginning. The average score, let's just look on this one, the general public, where the average score is three. Remember, this is a range from minus five to plus five. So, three being the average score, means that this is fairly highly scored. The standard deviation, which is the second number there, the two. The standard deviation is a measure of agreement among the respondents. The lower the standard deviation, the higher the agreement. Generally speaking in all of the slides, the standard deviation is around 2, particularly in the Grade A slides, which are the most desirable. So that means that there's a fairly strong level of agreement on that average score. A high score with a low standard deviation, means strong agreement that the image is desirable. We have three grades of images. That's all seventy, were then separated into three grades of images, A, B, and C. A being the most desirable, C being the least desirable. In A, the average scores are plus two or three; B they are minus one to plus one; and in C, zero to minus three, and remember these are average scores. (mumbled speaking from audience) Oh, okay, I'm sorry. Makela Mangrich who is here is the consultant that we used for the survey, and she was the one who actually administered the survey so the C is minus one to minus three. The Grade A images are important because those are the ones that were found to be most desirable images for Iowa City. They're an indicator of what people found most desirable, so logically those are the ones that we would use to guide us as we use any of this in looking at our Development Code. Now Bob's going to go through those Grade A slides, and discuss the particular slides and some of the characteristics that we can draw from those slides that are meaningful. Miklo/What I'd also like to point out that after the meeting there will be copies available at the back. i don't think we have enough copies for everybody. It's also going to be online so you can look at the City's web page to find it. It'll be here at the Library, at the Reference Desk, and you could always pick up a copy at the Planning Office. I would like to start ~vith the commercial category. When we're This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Iowa City Council special work session July 21, 2004. July 21, 2004 Special Council Work Session Page 3 speaking of commercial, we're talking about retail commercial, and not intensive commercial areas, such as auto repair, contractor's yards, lumberyards. Those uses tend to be in the less visible parts of the community, and are not something that we looked at in terms of the survey. There's less of a concern about those. What we are speaking of would be relative to downtown, our shopping centers, our commercial shopping centers, and our neighborhood commercial areas, where we are trying to bring retail goods and services closer to the residential customers. The images that scored well in this area had several common characteristics. For example, on this first slide (slide 19), most of the Grade A images of the commercial development had durable building material such as brick. Most of them were generally two stories in height, although there were a few exceptions to that. The Grade A images tended to have a lot of articulation, meaning that there were rather than one large building, buildings appear to be broken up into smaller components. They often had display windows, and awnings (slide 8). The signs on the Grade A commercial images tended to be discreet, and incorporated into the overall design of the building (slide 7). They generally were not freestanding signs (slide 11), or tacked on after the building was built. This slide was one of the Grade C images; it was one of the lowest scoring images. In the Grade A images, the parking lights were well landscaped (slide 19). They were visible and usable to the public, but they were screened with landscaping and had trees. So they weren't the emphasis of the development, yet they were still usable, and people were able to park in these developments, and the parking spaces were relatively close to the buildings. The Grade A commercial images also displayed a high-level of pedestrian amenities (slide 18). Things like benches, covered walkways, highly usable and visible sidewalks, and they also often had a lot of landscaping. So these are characteristics that were found throughout the Grade A images. Although mixed use buildings (slide 17) were not a specific category on the survey, we did receive a lot of comments in the general comment section about people endorsing mixed-use developments. The categories we actually looked at were commercial, apartments, townhouse, and duplex and single family, but as I said, many citizens expressed support for mixed-use development. Mixed use being where a building would have more than one use. Commercial or retail shops in the first floor, and apartments above would be an example. Like the commercial developments that scored in the Grade A category, the mixed-use developments that did well tended to be durable materials again. In this case it was brick, and generally they were two or more stories. The designs emphasized articulation of the faCade. Here, for example, rather than one big building, this building is broken up into smaller components in terms of bay windows, and again, the signs were generally discreet, and made part of the overall design of the building. And there were pedestrian amenities and landscaping present. Even though this particular image has fairly high density, it's three, four story buildings, it was one of the highest scoring slides of the survey. Moving on to the residential category, the survey revealed something interesting or some interesting information about density. In the general comments, many respondents indicated that they did not like higher density, or they were concerned about higher density, and expressed a desire for larger lot sizes and more space between buildings, but This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Iowa City Council special work session July 21, 2004. July 21, 2004 Special Council Work Session Page 4 when we look at the actual scores, we find that some of the higher density developments scored very well, and these were higher density, or by higher density I mean smaller yards, less open space between the buildings, less open space between the front of the building and the streets, and sometimes taller buildings. Some of the higher density images, whether they were single family, townhouse, duplex, or apartments, scored very well. And these higher density developments that tended to rate well, indicated, or the images show a lot of thought and care in the way that higher density was achieved, yet they still created a pleasant streetscape, and a pleasant neighborhood. Even though these developments are somewhat higher than we usually see in Iowa City, these design techniques help to make the developments appear less dense (slide 21). In the apartment category, the buildings that scored well, again tended to have durable building materials, in this case brick. The facades again were articulated, rather than one, what would look like one big building. This big building has been broken down into smaller components with bays and setbacks. There were often covered entries, or a prominent entry, for the apartment buildings. There was minimal setback from the street, and this was somewhat ora surprise when we first read the comments about density. Even though it's hardly setback from the street, it is really well landscaped up front, and there's good pedestrian access, very obvious sidewalk, and where the residential buildings, or the apartment buildings, that scored well, the parking was either underneath the building or in back of the building. It wasn't near the street. These Grade A slides, or the Grade B slides that didn't score so well, tended to have some of these characteristics but were lacking in one or more features. (slide 25) For example, this building has many of the features that I spoke of, yet it has minimal landscaping so it did not score as well. The Grade C images tended to have none of the features, (slide 24) or very few of the features, I spoke of with the Grade A images. Moving on to the duplex and townhouse category, (slide 32) these images had many of these same characteristics, but tended to be smaller in scale. Generally two, maybe two and a half stories in height, and they tended to have individual porches. In this case the parking is in the rear, offa rear lane or an alley, and there is some landscaping. There's not a lot of room up front, but there is some nice landscaping, even though the setback is minimal. (slide 52) Again, in terms of single family that scored well, the single-family category images that scored the best were those with rear driveways or alleys. These were used to provide access to the parking areas, leaving more room up front for landscaping and more of a residential appearance from the street. You'll notice that there isn't much of a front yard. This is fairly close to the street, and that there's minimal distance between the houses, yet this development, or this image, scored very well. The...as I said, the best scoring images tended to have rear lanes or alleys that helped them to achieve density without sacrificing a pleasant streetscape. But this isn't to say that rear lanes are absolutely necessary. Some of the other high scoring images did not include rear lanes, but with these, if you look at them closely, there was a lot of thought placed in ho~v the building sat on the site and where the parking and garage were located. This slide (slide 35), for example these duplexes, the garage is a small percentage of the overall facade, and there were features, such as a deck This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Iowa City Council special work session July 21, 2004. July 21, 2004 Special Council Work Session Page 5 or a porch, to help emphasize the residential aspect of the building. Moving on to...(slide 61) there were single-family examples that were similar. Again, there isn't an alley, there is parking up front, there is a garage up front, but some fairly simple design techniques were used. A fairly simple porch, a pergola over the door, a garage door that was complimentary to the house, were used to tone down that front entry, parking and garage, and this slide scored very well. One of the issues that was raised in the general comments, was a concern about affordability. Several people expressed a concern that people who took the survey would only rate the expensive slides highly, and that this might lead to demand for more expensive housing in Iowa City in terms of regulations. This turned out not to be the case when we actually looked at the scores. Although some of the expensive homes, like this one, did rate highly (slide 58), there were also less expensive modest homes that rated very well. This Grade A slide, (slide 48) for example, is a fairly inexpensive, simple design. This indicates to us that even more modest priced neighborhoods can be built with attractive streetscapes. Again, the slides that scored well, regardless of home price, tended to emphasize the residential appearance of the building. One of the most common comments that we received from citizens who took the survey, was a concern about the very same house, or very similar house styles, being repeated up and down an entire street. A concern about monotony (slide 41). These images, even when they were more expensive homes and they included brick and landscaping, did not score well. (slide 63) In contrast, developments that used similar house styles, or forms but decorated them differently with different colors and different features, and also did not put them right next to each other but interspersed them, they scored well. In summary I would like to point out that when you look at the report, the Grade A slides, the ones that scored well, represent a great variety of architectural styles and level of details. They're very modest buildings. There's traditional architecture as well as contemporary and modem architecture that rated well. (slide 29) Overall, there appears to be strong community support for pedestrian-friendly designs for both commercial and residential development. (slide 40) Developments with prominent sidewalks or pedestrian amenities scored well. (slide 45) Developments that put their best face toward the public street, scored the best. And, (slide 42) there does seem to be a support for density if there is good design, where things such as rear lanes or other design techniques were used to increase density, yet result in a comfortable streetscape, those were supported by the survey responses. But those developments that were dense that did not use these features, did not score so well. (slide 24) There was also, somewhat surprisingly, support for shallow setbacks. (slide 32) This was one of the higher scoring slides, yet developments that had (slide 57) greater setbacks and more appearance of open space, did not score well when they didn't have some of the design features, such as....or when they had a lot of paving in front and the garage was quite prominent, and there was limited landscaping. (slide 19) In general, there seems to be support for landscaping of parking lots; support for a sign ordinance; and support for mixed use developments. And again, in general, people, I think the survey results show, and the fact that so many people have expressed an interest in attending the This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Iowa City Council special work session July 21, 2004. July 21, 2004 Special Council Work Session Page 6 meetings, that there is a real desire for quality development in this community, and people care about the future of Iowa City and how we grow in the future. Franklin/A logical question now is what the next steps are, and because we are in the midst of the Development Code drafting process, the next steps for us will be to look at the Grade A slides, and I would encourage all of you to look in detail at this full report, which Bob says is available online, as well as in hard copy, and if you can't get access to a hard copy tonight because we don't have enough, give us your names; we'll get you a hard copy, because I think it's important that you look at it and understand exactly what is being said in this report. So the next step is going to be the staff will be drafting language for our Development Code, using some of the things that we have learned from the Visual Preference Survey, in drafting that language. It will then go to the Planning and Zoning Commission, and will go to the City Council, and that's when you have another venue, which, they will be repeated venues, of public heatings and public discussions, for you to have further input on what the outcomes are of this whole process. I can't tell you right now what that draft language is going to be because we haven't crystallized it yet in our own minds as to what we think we want to recommend. Certainly there is a continuum in this in which you can look at it from the aspect of an incentive for high-density development. That if somebody wants high-density development that there is an incentive that is provided, such that it is designed weI1 as the Grade A slides would define well, or it could be a requirement that in certain zones, if you have that density, by right there are those requirements for those certain design features. The decision on how that is going to come out rests with you, and with the Planning and Zoning Commission, and with the City Council. It will not be a decision of the staff. We will put some language together, it will go through the process, but you need to stay involved in this as it goes through the Commission and the Council, if you want to influence this outcome. And that's all we have to present. (man speaking from audience; unable to hear) Franklin/Oh, I guess, okay, yeah, and I would defer to the Mayor, Mr. Mayor, as the lead official at this meeting, as to how you would like to handle this part of the meeting. (mumbled speaking from audience; laughing) Okay, all right, give him the mic. What we'll do, because there's going to be a joint meeting of the Planning and Zoning Commission and City Council, it's now 7:30 PM. I would say we take fifteen minutes to discuss questions and see what we can do there, and then we'll move into the meeting of the two groups, if that's satisfactory, Mr. Mayor. Do you want to give Tom the mic? Mr. Summy right here. If I can repeat... Summy/Two questions, the one was there was no CBD photos, and the other was the low-cost housing "photo" that was there had no sidewalk and would the price of putting in an alley drive up low-cost housing? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Iowa City Council special work session July 21, 2004. July 21, 2004 Special Council Work Session Page 7 Franklin/Okay. First of all, in terms of photos from the CBD, are you talking about our downtown, or any downtown? Um, I believe in the commercial, there were a couple of photos that were central business district type photos. One particularly was the mixed-use development, in which there was a sidewalk caf& Also, the I think that very first, the very first photo, was a central business...oh, (speaking and laughter from audience). Does anybody have a pacemaker? Okay, I would say that's the central business district photo. The photo selection was done by our consultant, Vandewalle & Associates, and they have done numerous visual preference surveys, so we relied on them for the selection of the photographs largely, so that's in answer to your first question. The second question, first of all, I would not say that the housing, any of this housing, was low-income housing. The point Bob was making is that there is lower cost housing, the concern that was expressed, ! think, by the Association of Realtors, was that all people would select would be very expensive housing. The point was there was a range of housing costs shown here, and that the cottages are in that lower range, but not low-income housing. Yes, you're right, there is no sidewalk there, and you can see the general public and the HBA and Association of Realtors gave it a two rather than a three, in terms of average score. Now, whether or not in that particular one, the comments were that there was not pedestrian access, often we would have an aside comment, and if you remember on the sides you can make a comment. People would put "lack of pedestrian access." So we haven't included that in our presentation tonight. The cost of the alley, with an alley, and with rear access, you can get conceivably more units per block because you can put in a narrower unit, a narrower lot, and therefore I can't say exactly what the cost will be, and we haven't done that kind of an analysis, but if you have a block in which you can only put five units, because you've got to have room to put your garage there, versus a place where you can have eight units because you can put the garage in the back, accessing the alley, and I don't know if five and eight are a reasonable number or not. It could be double because eighty-foot lots are what were typical for quite a while, and that would be a ranch house with a garage. Well if instead you put in the forty foot lot so you can double the number of units, with your garages in the back, the trade-off of the number of units given the cost of the alley, would be what would get you the answer to that question. (man speaking from audience; unable to hear) Right...uh-huh...yeah...Toby's coming back to you with the mike. (female)/...Association, or how that affects public services? Fire, police...associations that'll be responsible for the maintenance of those alleys? Franklin/For one thing, we have not totally developed the concept of alleys at this point. What we're saying is, is that in the images that are being shown here, and what came out of the Visual Preference Survey was that there was in these Grade A images, as you can see for yourself as you look at them, higher scores or relatively higher scores on those images in which there was the residential building as the dominant form, but you also saw that there were a number of images in which they had front access. So it doesn't...I don't think you can This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Iowa City Council special work session July 21, 2004. July 21, 2004 Special Council Work Session Page 8 conclude from this that the only way to build is with alleys. We're not saying that at all. I don't know if that answered your question, but we just haven't gone that far. We have some developments with alleys, and the fire department reviews those and they have been acceptable. We do have a policy on alleys, in that if you want to put in an alley, the City will maintain it for the life of the pavement. The snow removal is done by a homeowner's association. But that's all negotiated during the subdivision process. Mr. Tucker? Tucker/I have a comment, not a question. Franklin/Okay. Tucker/If the top average score could be five, and you're considering Grade A to be two or three, it seems to me there was not very much enthusiasm for any of these in the audience, so, and actually that's...I was one of the people who took it, and I felt that most of them had very little to do with Iowa City. Franklin/One of the comments that we did receive, and the comments are all listed in the back of the report too, is that there was a general disappointment in the architecture presented. In the architecture that's being built, as well as the architecture presented. That there was nothing particularly innovative or unusual. The slides are all from Midwestem communities of ne~v construction, but...(someone speaking from audience)...right, you couldn't have an average of five. (several speaking at once; can't hear). (male)/I wondered if there was any discussion or any comments about accessibility, as universal design issues or generally accessibility. I saw a lot of step-ups sort off, and frontages. Franklin/Right, right. We did have comments in the general comments about accessibility, that that was a concern. And yes, it is. (female)/I may have missed this in the beginning, but how were the people chosen who took the survey? Franklin/They were self-selected. We advertised on the web; we did newspaper advertising; we sent out a notice in the water bill; and it was people that chose to be part of this that took part. Just like any public hearing or public discussion. (someone speaking from audience) No, we did have people who were not residents of Iowa City that took part in it. In fact, I think 33% of the Home Builder's Association of Realtors, were people that were not residents of Iowa City. We had a smaller percentage that were not residents that were in the general public, but I don't...4% of the general public that were not residents of Iowa City. (female)/You made the connnent that the best way for us to help was our input, to you and City Council. How is the best way to do that? By attending the meetings? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Iowa City Council special work session July 21, 2004. July 21, 2004 Special Council Work Session Page 9 By writing letters? By phone calls? What's the best way we can perceive our input? Franklin/Okay, that's a good question. I think there's a sign-up sheet there for further contact, is that correct? Okay. We will send you out notices of future meetings on this, as it goes through the Planning and Zoning Commission and the City Council, and if you've got email, by all means give us your email. That's the least expensive way for us to notify you. Then, it's a matter of your reading the draft language of the code, which can be difficult for somebody who is not used to working with codes, but to read those materials and then provide your input at the public hearings that will be before the Planning and Zoning Commission, and the City Council. The Commission will probably be having their hearings in October and November, hopefully to make a recommendation to the City Council in December. I would, I would expect that the Council, as they deliberate on this, will take from three to six months, given what it took the last time we did a major change in the zoning ordinance. So that's from January to June of 2005. So stay tuned. Rita? Rita/Karin, I'm curious. In the beginning when we first talked about taking the survey, it was stated that this was probably not going to play a very large part in the decision-making on the changes in code. At this point, tonight, it sounds like it may be playing a larger picture than you had painted before. Can you tell us what your outlook is on the results of this? Franklin/I would say, it's going to play as large a part as any public input plays in the whole process of law adoption. Because it is another piece of public input, that's what it is. It's a different kind than we normally see because it is visual. But, I mean, other than that, I don't know what to tell you. Buss/How many total people took this survey? Franklin/420. I don't know how many will come to the public hearing on it. (male)/In developing the language of the code, the people involved, I'm assuming, are looking at precedence, I mean, this isn't the first time, I'm sure, the City has taken an interest in the way it's developing, the way it's growing. Do they provide any.., a list of precedence to other cities, other municipalities, that have gone through this process? Some things they've Ieamed through experience? Franklin/You mean, what has been done in other cities? Certainly. (male)/I'm wondering if you're considering what has been done in other communities, and learning from them, because it sounds like everybody wants to draw up some sort of code from scratch. I was just wondering if there were other precedence that everyone's considering. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Iowa City Council special work session July 21, 2004. July 21, 2004 Special Council Work Session Page 10 Franklin/No, we don't want to do that. First of all, we have a code already. We have a code that was adopted in 1983. We're using that as the base from which we go. We adopted a Comprehensive Plan in 1997, which was after the code. The code is supposed to follow the plan, so one of the charges for redoing our code now is to make our zoning ordinance and subdivision regulations, which is the code I'm talking about, consistent with our Comprehensive Plan. There are some broad principles that are stated in our Comprehensive Plan, and so the idea is to pull from those principles to get a code that in fact is going to create the community that's envisioned in the Comprehensive Plan. And when we do the code writing, we use the basic code that we already have, plus research from other communities throughout the country. We use the American Planning Association resources, as a member of that professional organization. The staff researches, reads, takes public input, tries to put it all together, but it's to reach that goal of what is stated in the 1997 Comprehensive Plan, which was a community effort. A community plan, that was put together by a lot of grass roots input. Miklo/Karin, ifI may add, something that was very heartening about the results of the survey is they leant a lot of support to what's already in the Comprehensive Plan, so it's kind of a continuation of what Iowa Citians told us they wanted when we first adopted the plan. (male)/A lot of what is being shown here as new ideas is actually old ideas. If you look at communities throughout the Midwest, the parts that really work well, and these designs are historic communities. Franklin/Well, we like to think we're always on the cutting edge, but we're not. (female)/Was Iowa City somewhat unique in these preference findings, as compared to the other surveys they've done in the Midwest, or is it somewhat consistent with the rest of the Midwest findings? Franklin/I'll let Makela answer that because I don't know. Mangrich/We do these surveys in a number of different communities. I just finished one in Kenosha County community, and yeah, they are different. Iowa City is unique in that it's a college town. It has a little different aesthetic than a lot of the smaller communities in which we work. I would think it would be very comparable to other communities, such as a Madison, that is a college town and a larger community. But, for instance, I just did one for a community in Kenosha County, which is a rural but rapidly growing community, between Chicago and Milwaukee, and they voted almost predominantly against any multi-family. They didn't like any density. And so the results were really dramatic, and it was like a month after I did this one so I was like...kind of raised my eyebrows a bit, so yeah, they do vary quite a bit. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Iowa City Council special work session July 21, 2004. July 21, 2004 Special Council Work Session Page 11 (male)/Yeah, I was just wondering if any special consideration was given to the photos, as far as when they were taken, times of day or days of the week, or anything like that. The reason I ask is I noticed that, certainly not all of them but a number of them, were fairly devoid of traffic, cars, anything parked, even in vision...I was wondering if you just waited for times when things were much, you kno~v, there were less cars around so you could see things better, or if that was a typical representation of those areas? Miklo/I think that's a fair statement. In order to get the image, you don't want a car in the way so, we did really struggle because we put this together in the winter, so it was hard to get images that didn't have snow on the roof, or had green grass, so we really had to look hard for those images, and we used collections and some photos from around here as well as other communities. We tried to pick images that had blue skies, so that the weather didn't affect someone's rating, although we did have gray, some gray, or cloudy skies, but we tended to have the same number of cloudy skies across the different styles (audience laughing). (male)/And then I have a following question then. I noticed that a number of those photos that were of places that had, apparently had alleys, parking in the rear, that there were very few of them that had any cars along the street. Is that by regulation, or was that just by happenstance, or do people always park in the back? Miklo/In terms of these images, it was by happenstance. It wasn't by design. There are, we've had some recent develops where we have alleys, and there tends to be less parking on the street because there's more space in the back to park. We've had a recent development where we approved an alley and a slightly narrower street, and we decided to limit the parking to only one side of the street, because the street was narrower, so it's a case-by-case basis. Franklin/Okay, it's 7:45 PM now, if...one more? Okay, one more. (female) Specifically in the single-family category, were there any outside comments, concerns, raised about whether there's a lack of backyards, specifically in the homes that have detached garages in the back, with alley access? Were there any outside comments expressing concerns? Franklin/I don't, I don't recall comments about backyards, but that could be because everybody was asked to look at the image that they saw, which was always the front. There weren't any images of the rear or the side, except maybe one comer lot. So, you, we were asking for a visceral reaction to....what's your instant reaction to this image? So I don't know that there really was time for people to think about the backyard question, but as to whether there's a backyard or not, yeah, yeah. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Iowa City Council special work session July 21, 2004. July 21, 2004 Special Council Work Session Page 12 Miklo/There's a development that we, and I didn't use any of them here although there were some Grade A slides, a development outside of Chicago, suburban Chicago, that has alleys and they attach, they also have attached garages in the back with a breezeway or passage-way, and the way they were designed, they did have a generous backyard so there are some design techniques that can result in both a backyard and an alley, and yet still attach the garage. (someone speaking in audience; unable to hear) Franklin/No. The price point is not recorded in the booklet, in the report. But Makela says that they do know what they are. Yeah, yeah, okay. Thank you all very much for coming. Everybody is certainly welcome to stay. The Planning and Zoning Commission and the City Council are going to have a joint meeting. They are going to discuss the philosophy of Planning and Zoning, and the review process that the City Council will use for the Development Code. (BREwed<D Lehman/There are a couple...this is maybe going to be a discussion in Planning 101 but Council had some interest in meeting with the Planning and Zoning Commission, with staff, and this is one of those rare occasions I think when everyone is present. Basically I think some discussion of just Planning and Zoning philosophy. Obviously we're talking about rewrite of the code, and how that precedes...some time ago, we were approached at the Council level about receiving parts of the code as it was revised. At that time, the decision of the Council was, "No, no, we'll wait until we get everything in one piece," because during that process it was the opinion of some of us, that some of the first portions of the code might be changed to comply with later portions as they came along so that we would do a single review after it was completed. I think there's probably some discussion relative to that. Bob Elliott is one of the Council people who really requested this meeting, and I, Bob, I think you have comments to make, and anybody who has any comments, questions, observations, just feel free to say so, from both Council people and also community folks. Elliott/Start off?. I was afraid you were going to do that. Lehman/Oh, okay. Elliott/Let me just say, address one point, and give three kind of sub points to it, and that is I would really like the City's planning component to be much more user friendly. And to work at that, if at all possible. One, and I talked to one of the Commission members earlier and got a response that I didn't like, but he's much more knowledgeable than I am, do we really need twenty-five different codes? Different zones? It just seems, I don't know why we need that many different things. For instance, the Ace Hardware Store was an example to me. Why is it there's a hardware store that's that much different than a grocery store? Why did there need to be so many changes in that? That's one. Could we perhaps look at This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Iowa City Council special work session July 21, 2004. July 21, 2004 Special Council Work Session Page 13 the possibility of putting in a process where when people come to Planning staff, there is a designated individual for them to go to, to handle their needs, their interests, their concerns, as opposed to them going to different people? Can we make this a more user-friendly process by having a designated individual? Third, there have been some situations in the past where the code didn't allow things. The zone was such that what the builder or the developer was planning was nonconforming, but it seemed to be a good thing for the City of Iowa City. So why can't we just make those things happen? The three examples that I have here: the surgery office near Mercy; the Mid-Town Family Restaurant; and the Honda dealership sign. Those were three things that eventually got taken care of. When there's something that doesn't fit a zone, why can't we look at it, if it is in the best interest of Iowa City, why don't we look at it and instead of saying "no, you can't do it," why don't we say "how can we make it happen?" So, I throw those three things out as my immediate observations, questions, concerns, and this comes from a person who is, knows very little to nothing, about zoning. I simply think that it seems entirely too complex, and needs to be much more flexible. I would like your responses. Anciaux/Okay, the three examples you gave, Mercy...I don't think I was on when that happened. Elliott/Neither was I. Anciaux/Were either of you on? The Honda sign...I know absolutely nothing about that. (several people talking at once) Okay, and what was the third one? Elliott/The Mid-Town Family Restaurant. Anciaux/And that was done before I came on too, so I have no idea what... Lehman/Okay, now item 2, no (laughter). Elliott/First of all, does everybody say "we need 25..." whether it's 20 or 25 or 30, do we need that many different zones? Lehman/In all fairness before some...Karin, would you join us here, because I think some of these are staff issues. No, no, I really do. I think you can explain some of these things, in all fairness to Council and Commission members, I think some of those questions are really staff, or staff questions. Now that you've joined us, why do we have twenty-three zones? Or twenty-five, or whatever, and I think there is a reason, and I think that, and I don't expect you to articulate all of them. Franklin/It's something that's evolved since the 1920's. When zoning started there were three zones: R, C, and I - residential, commercial, and industrial. Now there are twenty-five...I haven't counted them recently. The evolution of it over time, obviously I wasn't here in 1920 so (laughter) yeah, almost, but not quite. All I This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Iowa City Council special work session July 21, 2004. July 21, 2004 Special Council Work Session Page 14 can say is that you know Iowa City is a fairly complex, and I will say, demanding community in terms of what the expectations of the community are, and that's a very broad statements, and obviously the demands are different from different people, but there is an expectation that government is going to be there to take care of things for people when they want them taken care of, and not regulate them when they don't personally want to be regulated. But the complexities of the zoning ordinance, I think, has come as a result of what the community wants for this community. What the expectations are of people, over time, because no one of us here is responsible for what's in the zoning ordinance right now. Iris something that has grown over time with the community. In our Comprehensive Plan, there's statements about building neighborhoods, and what kinds of neighborhoods those will be. Neighborhoods with diversity in the housing, in people, and being pedestrian friendly, and how do you create those places. One of the ways that you create those places within a community is with government regulation, as annoying as that may be sometimes. As Director of Planning, I hate zoning. (laughter) I mean, it just, you know, it's one of the most difficult parts of the job, but when you live in a community, there are certain rules and laws that people play by. That's how we get along; that's how we build the community together. When I say "we" I mean the government, property owners, developers, builders, realtors, bankers, all the people who are part of that process of building the community. And you try to come up with some sort of vision as to what you collectively want. That's what the Comprehensive Plan was about, and then the zoning is to enable you to get to that point. There's some communities in this country that have much mom complex zoning ordinances than Iowa City. There are some that have much simpler ones. And, I mean, all I can say is that ours has evolved over time, often as a consequence of what some people wanted to have happen, or wanted to make sure didn't happen. Most often the laws that we write, I think you all know, are a consequence of trying to deal with that 2% or half a percent, that won't behave in a way that it works for the community. So, I don't...that's a very difficult question to answer, Bob, to answer it simply, but I think that the only way I can do it is as I have, that we have a complex community that wants a lot of things, that has high expectations for the places they live in, and the consequence has been that we have this variety of regulations. Elliott/So, your informed experienced, knowledgeable answer is "yes, we need twenty- five codes." Franklin/We need...my answer is that that is how it has evolved over the years, and decades, not just a few years. Elliott/So in other words, "yes they are needed" and you've worked with it, and you have found no way to make them fewer, or less... Franklin/One of the things that we're working on with the Development Code review is to try to make it more user friendly. I mean, we've...in the code drafts that the Commission is familiar with, we're talking about use categories, as opposed to This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Iowa City Council special work session July 21, 2004. July 21, 2004 Special Council Work Session Page 15 specific uses. So that in a particular zone, it's by a category, or type of use, that has similar what we call "externalities," things that have an impact on the properties around it. And those uses that have those similar characteristics are put in a category, and part of that is so that we don't have to change it every time something new comes along that we haven't envisioned, or we don't have to say "no" then. If there's a use that comes in that has not been contemplated, the direction in the new code is to look at it in terms of a category and see which one it will fit into. Elliott/Yeah, my example was Ace Hardware on Dodge Street, something like 17,000 feet when it went from a grocery store to a hardware store, and then they were told that 2,000 feet of that could not be the hardware store. Franklin/Right, right, and that's part of... Elliott/Things like that cause people to say, "What the heck is going on?" Franklin/Yes, and in the neighborhood commercial zone, which is something that I think was first developed in the seventies, it was to try to get commercial near residential areas, without that commercial having a negative impact on the residential areas. Because it used to be that you could have commercial in residential areas, you know, back in the thirties. Elliott/But it didn't have any impact on the residential area because the building is still the same size. You just had to... Franklin/Right, but in this effort to try to work a neighborhood commercial into a neighborhood, there were certain parameters that were set up within that zone as to what could happen so there wouldn't be negative effects, and then we have tweaked it over and over and over and over again, over the years. Miklo/There's actually a recent change to the zoning ordinance that allowed the hardware to be as big as it was because up until two years ago (can't hear) any retail, other than a grocery store and drug store, was limited to 2,500 square feet, and then two years ago we increased the size of hardware stores, up to 15,000. The idea of a 15,000 cap is our consultant at the time had indicated that that's the size a general hardware store, that is appropriate for a neighborhood, versus once you start getting bigger than that, you start drawing in much more traffic. Also the idea was to allow more than one use in the neighborhood so that now, today, there's a convenience store that sells groceries and other services that the neighborhood needs. Elliott/And my thought is that instead of setting a specific number of feet, why can't you say something like it should be approximately this, and any variation from that, you would need to have some sort of reasonable defense for it, and the defense would be, "That's how big the building is." And it doesn't make any difference This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Iowa City Council special work session July 21, 2004. July 21, 2004 Special Council Work Session Page 16 to the neighborhood whether there is 2,000 feet in it. In this instance, Bob, I agree. I think the neighborhood benefits from the fact that the little grocery store is there, but it just seems odd that you can't use some common sense on those things. Franklin/Well, and part of that, and Eleanor can respond to this too, is the fact that when we're doing zoning, we're writing law. Law that needs to be interpreted by those people who are going to use it, and those people who are going to enforce it. And those people are going to be human beings, and they're going to read that and they're going to interpret it different ways. You try to write it as precisely as you can, such that there is not an opportunity for broad variations and interpretation, because all of the people involved in this change over time. You also write law in most instances so that the person who is enforcing it, does not have the option of using a lot of judgment. Elliott/1 think, right....we've gone, I need to give the other Councilors time to ask questions, make comments... O'Donnell/Excuse me, part of this user friendly, I do remember that Honda sign out there, and that was part of the airport regulation, saying that a sign can't be thirty feet high in that area. So... Franklin/Well we changed the code to enable that broad base, freestanding sign. O'Donnell/Right... Franklin/So that it's twenty-seven feet instead of all the other freestanding signs in this city are twenty-five feet. I mean, it's one of those things too. Whenever you have measurements, height of a sign, setback, there's always somebody who would like to do it, well one foot just the other way because. O'Donnell/Karin, but if you have a thirty foot sign and you put a two foot berm there, the sign becomes twenty-eight feet, and if you build it up a little bit...and I thought we could have (couldn't hear). Another example is Fareway grocery store out there. Because usage was omitted so many years ago when we put desired usages in this zone...I mean the majority of people wanted it. All the things that you could have there, but we omitted the grocery store. I think we went through a lot of trouble to get that grocery store. I believe the community wanted it, and I think it's functioning well out there. But, for the most part, I'm...zonings are there for a reason. If you buy a property and there's a large vacant lot across the street, it's reasonable to assume there's going to be something built there some day. So you should check the zoning. Franklin/The reason for zoning is to give people an expectation of what they can expect to happen around them. I mean, that's one of the major reasons for zoning, is so that you know as a buyer of property, what's going to happen around you if you This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Iowa City Council special work session July 21, 2004. July 21, 2004 Special Council Work Session Page 17 check the zoning. Now that's also one of the things that comes up whenever we have a rezoning request, is people who have bought with an expectation, and then were considering changing it. Champion/I think, you need to give the laws a little bit of flexibility, and they have flexibility with the City Council. If you remember, Fareway was not included in the zoning plan, but we wanted it done and some way had to be found for it to be done, so a law was changed. So there is flexibility, but it can't be up to the enforcers to allow the flexibility. It's like saying to a policeman, if they rob $100 you can't arrest them. If they rob $200 you can. I mean, they have to follow that, but you can't give them the expectation of arresting people that will. So laws have to be rigid, and then there has to be a way for them to be flexible, and we're the way they're flexible. Franklin/Well they are yours. The laws are yours, as the Council. Anciaux/Now, I'm going to ask Bob this, you said there's, well both Bob's actually, you said there's how many different zones? Elliott/Twenty-five is my understanding. Anciaux/Twenty-five, and some of those, like the interim development, would that, wouldn't those be like duplication, like don't we have an interim development? MikIo/Yeah, we have some zones, like interim development zone, it's a holding zone for areas that we don't have water, sewer, or street access. Anciaux/But we have an interim development RS-5, interim development... Miklo/Right, well residential and multi-family residential. Anciaux/Yeah. So there's actually a little duplication because of that, and it's still the same zone, but you know, they still add up. Freerks/I would agree. I think that reading that code book is a miserable experience right now (laughter), and I'm serious because I have read it, and I think that ~vhat you'll see when this is all finished, and tweaked through the process, will be much more manageable for people to use, and I mean, I have great faith that that will be the case. Now that doesn't necessarily mean that I think we should have fewer zones. I'm...I believe that twenty-five zones is probably a good idea for a community like Iowa City. I agree that Iowa City is a community that expects a lot, and these zones help to detail the area. People know what to expect when they purchase a property, and people who are near that property know what to expect. It's a plan that ties in with the Comprehensive Plan. We have, I think, a frame work, and just because it might be a little heavy, I don't think that necessarily means it's bad because I feel that it helps to, and I think you'll see this This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Iowa City Council special work session July 21, 2004. July 21, 2004 Special Council Work Session Page 18 more when it's rewritten and reorganized really, in many ways. It's a way for people to know what to expect, and it's a way for people to have fewer problems through potential litigation, even, you know, because people know what they are required to do, and there isn't a lot of confusion there, and I think that that's probably a good thing, in my mind. Anciaux/And, a lot of those zones are also a stepping process too. You don't want to put large lot single families next to the high-density multi-family unit, and by doing the, what is it, RM-44, RM-20, and going down to RS-5. You don't have an RS-5 unit sitting right next to a high-density... Elliott/Yeah, it's interesting because I read the minutes of Planning and Zoning, and you so frequently, I see the reference that it doesn't fit, something doesn't fit in with the rest of that block, or the rest of that neighborhood, and I thought, you know for years we've talked about devaluing diversity, but it seems like we don't like much diversity in our residential areas. Freerks/Well I think there's a difference between diversity and respecting the area around you. I think that that's a line that it's, maybe for some people difficult to draw, but I think it's something that ~ve need to understand and to look very carefully at when we assess a project. Anciaux/And as far as diversity goes, there's three of us that live in a very diverse neighborhood. You start out with Broadway, which is a high-density residential property. Then you go to Taylor Avenue which is duplexes, and that's a step down, until you get over to where I live at Russell, which is single-family, out...actually there's Davis which is single-family with a single-car garage, and then mine. That's what the stepping down is. Elliott/My problem is, I grew up with apartment buildings and little houses, and I'm used to that, that's what a neighborhood is. Lehman/Bob, let me just say this, and Karin, I think you made the comment, and there is a real value in zoning, obviously. There's not a single ordinance I think that I'm aware of that's on the books, that was not originated because of an action or a reaction to something that occurred. Something occurred...the sensitive areas ordinance was a response to something that happened that really wasn't a good thing, i...depending on your view, the sensitive areas ordinance was a wonderful response to a big problem, and seems to be working pretty well. But, most of our zoning codes, have resulted because of something that happened that was undesirable or something that somebody didn't want to happen, but I think the word expectation is terribly important. You live in a single-family neighborhood. You have the expectation that the other folks in that neighborhood are also single- family; that the property across the street was zoned single-family; and that's what you can expect to occur there. You live there because of that. You paid a certain amount of money for it because that was where it was, and you have that This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Iowa City Council special work session July 21, 2004. 'July 21, 2004 Special Council Work Session Page 19 expectation, and I think it is absolutely unfair of a city, or a government, to suddenly allow something that's totally out of character to occur in a zone where everybody else made their investment based on that zone. So there is an expectation, and I remember a long time ago, Steve, I talked to you about something that occurred in Housing Inspection Services. I don't even remember what the issue was now, but I complained, and I said, "Why can't we use a little common sense? A little discretion? Why can't the inspector kind of tweak it a little?" And, I'll never forget your answer. (laughter) What is a little tweaking, or do I tweak it a little for Bob, and then because I don't like Mike, I don't tweak it at all, or I like Mike better so I tweak it a little more, and as much as I'm frustrated sometimes with having to deal with the way laws are written, I don't know ifI can think ora better way. The rules have got to be the same; the expectations have to be the same. If you're a developer, you're a home owner, you're a home seller, you need to know the rules, and you need to know that the city is going to live by the rules that were made because the people in the community asked us to make the rules. I mean, councils long before us made almost all of the zoning regulations that we have, and we can certainly change them, and we did that with Mid-Town Grill. We did that with Fareway, and we have rarely have we not agreed with staff, but we have disagreed with P&Z on occasion, and there certainly is the possibility of us changing any zoning that we have now, and I think the public knows that. That is not an easy process, nor should it probably be easy, but I do think there's a certain expectation, and I, the neighborhood commemial, Bob, I think was a really good example, and I tend to have the same thoughts that you do, but I think when you say that you can only tolerate within a single-family neighborhood, a store of a certain size, you do have to put parameters on that size. And if it's 15,000 square feet, or 12,000, or 16,000, or 18,000....it's not 18,000 if it's 15,000. It's not 20,000 if it's 15,000. Now maybe you go to the Board of Adjustment, or maybe you ask the Council to change it, but if I lived in that neighborhood and suddenly I know that 15,000 is the largest building, or business, that can be there and suddenly there's a 20,000 square foot building, and it generates incredible amounts of traffic, I'm not very happy. It's just one of those things, it's not always easy. Elliott/I agree with everything you say, except I can't believe we need twenty-five separate, different zones. Champion/We need thirty, Bob. (laughter) Anciaux/And you know, Bob, let me extend an invitation to you too to come and sit in on our.,. Elliott/You guys are too smart for me. (laughter) Anciaux/We would be more than happy to let you do that. In fact, I am a little concerned with what I'm hearing hem that maybe we shouldn't be shipping over the sections that we're going through. I don't know if you're even... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Iowa City Council special work session July 21, 2004. July 21, 2004 Special Council Work Session Page 20 Lehman/We're not getting them. Anciaux/...if you're getting a chance to look at it, but I would have no problem shipping them over to you. I don't want this to be thought of as something that's being hidden from anybody. The meetings are open again, and... Lehman/I don't think that that's the case at all. The conversation at the time we had it, was that it might be easier to consider the whole package, rather than try to do bit by bit. You have looked at it. Staffhas looked at it. You pass it piece by piece by piece; we go through and start changing the pieces before we see how they fit into the big puzzle, and I think, from my perspective, I'd rather see how all the pieces fit before I would like to rearrange those pieces or change them. Now, that's my philosophy. Now, I'm sure there's other folks who would like, and say "no, no, no" if, and I do think if there are drastic changes in the code, I mean fundamental changes, the Council may or may not chose to go along with fundamental changes. Those you might want to run past Council before you make any decisions based on those changes. Anciaux/Yeah, as a for instance, we just went through the sign ordinance, and we decided that there was some desire to change the sign ordinance, and we said no, we're going to leave it the same. If we want to change it, we'll get this done and then come back and revisit it, and don't let it be the albatross hanging around the whole thing's neck. Hansen/I'd like to get into that just a little bit because you say you want the whole package delivered to Council, as a package, okay, it's my feeling right now that the package is being pushed as a package, and any major change we as the Commission may want to make, is being put off for the sake of getting you the package, and then we will amend the package once you look at it. Lehman/Wait a minute, say that again. Why wouldn't you make changes before you give it to us? Hansen/Well, okay, the sign ordinance, okay. There were some of us on the Commission that would like to see some major changes to the sign ordinance, and for the sake of getting the package done, we were told that that maybe should be put off and then we will go back and revisit it after you get that, and that really kind of disturbs me. Champion/I find that disturbing also. Hansen/You know, I think that we're going to end up being the P&Z Commission who had the chance to make the changes, and didn't. Okay? I look at this thing as being a package that we bring to you, that is going to end up having to be changed This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Iowa City Council special work session July 21, 2004. July 2l, 2004 Special Council Work Session Page 21 again if we don't go through these things, that we are in disagreement or agreement on, but are not going forward with. Champion/I would hope you would go forward with any changes you want to make. I can tell you that we're not going to be an easy group to please, and you better get in there what you want. (laughter) Anciaux/I'm not so sure...Jerry has his opinion. I have my opinion. I'm not real sure there's that much...right, and I'm not sure that there's that much disagreement in that sign ordinance. I think that if you wanted to, we could do that. Vanderhoef/What I would like to see is this specifically, the things that there isn't tmanimity on. I don't expect you to get to unanimity, and I want it brought forward with the arguments, pro and con. Anciaux/Right. Vanderhoef/And, you know, Emie wants the whole package. I think there are some things, like sign ordinance, that I would like to just as well see as a single piece to put into the package, and we could be working on some of those instead of having such a long drawn-out process as it goes forward. But I'd like to go back to our original discussion of philosophy, if we might. There's a few things that doesn't seem to come out for me in the Comprehensive Plan, and we heard the description tonight of the Comprehensive Plan, is what drives what the zoning is so that we end up with the product that came out in the Comprehensive Plan. But some of the things that didn't show up for me in Comprehensive Plan and Community Building, have to do with things that you can't make a law about, but yet your sense is, and one of those things is cost, and how much it's costing to put forward a certain philosophy of visual appearance, for instance. Another thing that is not coming out in the Comprehensive Plan in a clear vision, is the impermeable surfaces. In other words, then how big are the spaces if we zone down into density. If the philosophy is density, and we zone down to forty foot frontages, move the houses, or keep them at twenty foot setbacks, put all of our services and so forth in the back, along with another impermeable surface, and a driveway if the owner chooses to attach the garage. Then how much of that land have we covered? How much green space is left? And then move right on to safety, and the safety of streets close together, or narrow streets in the front. All right, so that's easier crossing, but typically when I'm working ~vith children, I'm saying I want my children to play in the back yard where it's safe, but if you move all the cars down the alleys in the back yards, and have all the driveways in the back yard, where's the green space even left for children to play safely? Are we going to have them fence a little six-foot square back there in the back? So, there's a philosophy for doing all of these things for density, but I'm not sure that it's cost effective. It may be cost effective for the developer, but when we close them in like that, we have two streets to maintain, and we've pushed the cost off of maintenance and snow plowing, as a hidden cost to the buyer who thinks they're This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Iowa City Council special work session July 21, 2004. July 21, 2004 Special Council Work Session Page 22 buying this inexpensive house, and their house payment is only this mount, and yet it turns around that they're going to have to pay homeowner's kinds of costs to go into snow plowing. We certainly have to look at refuse pickup, and whether it's going to be in the front or the back. We're experimenting right now with the self-load from the front curb. Well, visually if you want the front to look a certain way, you don't want the garbage cans sitting out there, so you put those in the back so the garbage trucks are coming through on the alley, which requires the developer to build the more dense concrete for the alley, which is more expense to them, because it won't hold our heavy garbage trucks back there. I mean, there's just a whole lot of hidden costs in there, and there are costs in safety; there are costs in upkeep, and maybe we're fooling ourselves if some of the zoning codes are only in there for visual and for density. Hansen/I'd like to take a stab at that one. I don't know why, but I'm going to do it anyway. (laughter) Well, I guess the zoning code comes about because of experience by the city of all the different requests coming from developers. Now why is somebody buying in a more dense neighborhood, where they have smaller lots, and trash pickup in the back, why they wouldn't know about the additional costs, that isn't up to zoning, okay? That isn't up to the Planning and Zoning. That's up to probably the broker that sold them the house, to make them aware of what it was; probably up to them themselves to read the covenants of their contracts. All those different things, but we have to have the different zones to deal with the different scenarios that these builders throw at us, okay? We have to have one there for a denser zone, because we're going to get a denser zone request. We have to have one there for the three-acre lot because we're going to get that request too. And I think it's incumbent on the homeowner to do a little homework when they go to buy, you know, to see what they're getting into. I, having the zoning right there is just a matter of dealing with what we're being asked for. Vanderhoef/But the combination of the visual piece that we saw tonight, and we saw a number of homes with garages that took over much of the front, with obviously earlier developments that there's no landscaping at this point, but when you get that, we never saw what the back amenities looked like, so that there was no comparison of... Hansen/That's because you're being asked to judge what the public image is. Vanderhoef/Right. Hansen/And generally you don't invite the public to go through your back yard. Vanderhoef/But if you have an alley, you have a back yard that is also a visual, and the cost of doing the front visual, what are, what would the public say if they had seen all of the back yards, mixed them all up, and ranked all of the back yard's looks, off of the alley? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Iowa City Council special work session July 21, 2004. July 21, 2004 Special Council Work Session Page 23 Champion/People make that choice when they buy the house. Vanderhoef/But to cross-reference. No, what I'm saying is to cross-reference it in that here you have a visual preference that looks very nice on the street side, and it doesn't have the amenities on the street side and you don't have any idea what those will be. Freerks/To me this offers variety. You know, this is one scenarios. Vanderhoef/It is. Freerks/There are hundreds of scenarios that we want to be available for people who are developing, and for people who are buying things, and I see, you talk about concrete. Vanderhoef/Impermeable surfaces. Freerks/Um, if you were packing, if you relay that to what Karin said earlier, and you're able to put in eight units in a certain space, instead of four units, if you think that you're drawing those eight units out then, in a much larger area, you'll have even more concrete there. I mean, I don't think you can say, I'm not expressing it well enough right now, but it's not convincing to me that this is going to be a problem, having more concrete. These are just very technical things, and I think what we have to see is we're not going to request that everyone has a forty foot lot and a garage in the rear. This is just one idea, and one way for someone to have a place to live. Lehman/Am I correct in that, and I'm assuming, because I haven't seen any of this, these are going to be options available to developers. If you choose to go with the forty-foot lot, these are the kinds of things you can do. If you don't like those kind of things, you can go with the fifty-foot lot. If you don't want the fifty-foot lot, and you want, so I mean, these are options. These are not requirements of building. They're options; they're trade offs. Is that correct? One of the things...one more thing....I think as one Councilperson, I am far more interested in seeing the Development Code get to us. I don't really care if the signing ordinance is part of the Development Code, because I think there's a great anticipation, in some respect there's a concern among the building community, the development community, the real estate community, as to what this new building code is going to look like, and I would, I mean I would like to see that come to us. I don't consider the sign ordinance a part ora building code. I know it's part of the zoning code, and I think it's very, very important, and I certainly share concerns about signing, but I think the, from my perspective, and other Council persons can certainly join in, there's a lot of talk recently about the zoning code, and it's primarily referencing how we are going to handle subdivisions, what are going to be the requirements, what, you know, just what is going to be coming out in the Development Code, not so much things like signs, This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Iowa City Council special work session July 21, 2004. July 21, 2004 Special Council Work Session Page 24 so I don't have problem with letting that be handled in a separate fashion, and no matter what we ultimately decide, and what we ultimately stop, you can almost bet there'll be a change in the first year. (laughter) It happens all the time. Anciaux/Well, Ernie, as somebody that's worker in city government before, I know about City Council's changing (laughter), and you know, it's your prerogative. It's your job, and I understand that, and you know, you may see something we may have overlooked. I have no problem with you changing it whatsoever when it gets to you. Just give us, like I say, maybe give us a chance to get it done. If you have any input that you'd like to put into it, please give us some direction before we do it, or you know, if something's totally out of whack. Lehman/Well, that's one of the problems with the manner in which we're doing this, and I happen to, that's perhaps a flaw in waiting until everything is done to get it. I do not know what you're talking about at P&Z. I read your minutes a little bit here and there, but I'm not personally interested in becoming...I'd like to see you folks work it out with staff, to where you're comfortable with it before we get it, because things change. Staff gives them to you; opinions change; and the final product many times is not quite... Anciaux/I'm quite interested in what the final product is going to look like. (laughter) Lehman/But I would rather see you refine it before we get it, which is why I'm not interested in trying to, you know, have input in the middle of a process. Anciaux/Right. Lehman/I have a lot of confidence in you folks, and the staff as well. Anciaux/Like I said, I have no problem with you making changes with it once you get it too, because, again, that is your prerogative. I've learned that through the years. City Council is where the buck stops, and I have no problem with that at all, and I'll just be glad when it's done. Lehman/You know, Bob mentioned one thing, Karin, and if you...at a recent Economic Development Committee meeting, we were told by our staffperson that we were going to look at the possibility of, I think this probably dealt with commercial work, but the concept I find very, very interesting. IfI were to come in and build a seventeen-story hotel, as opposed to the one across the street, that I could come in and find a staffperson, you know, you or somebody, and that that person would lead me through the entire process, whether I had to go to the Planning and Zoning Commission; I have to go to the Building Department; I have to go to Police, Fire, all of those things, but one, you, you're going to be the one, would be my contact person, and you would tell me that I need to go see this department or that, rather than, and Bob mentions twenty-five zones, the book is this thick, and the average person is scared to death because they don't understand it. They're This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Iowa City Council special work session July 21, 2004. July 21, 2004 Special Council Work Session Page 25 building a screened-in porch. They have no ideas all the regulations. What's the possibility of that sort of thing being available to the public when they work with building and zoning issues, having a contact person who would direct them, rather than have to go to the wrong door a dozen times, and frankly waste your time and a lot of other people's. Franklin/Well, we do that already. Lehman/Thank you. Franklin/Well, let me just tell you kind of how the thing works. Mostly who we're working with in the Planning Department is we're working with developers. We're not working with builders, and we're working with individual property owners, most often when they're going to the Board of Adjustment, because they've run into a snag in the Building Department when they want to do something on their property. When something comes to us, that case, that development project, the case for the Board of Adjustment, is assigned to one staffperson. That staffperson works with that person in terms of enabling them to understand what the codes are, what the situation is, what the staff position is on their project, to enable them to make good decisions about how they're going to go forward, and we try to say in a development project, ~vork out a lot of the detail of that development project, even before it goes to the Planning and Zoning Commission. So that when that project goes to the Planning and Zoning Commission and subsequently to the City Council, it goes with a positive recommendation. There's sometimes that's not going to happen, but we try to work with somebody to enable that to happen. Now what we've talked about most recently, with Economic Development particularly, is that on commercial and industrial development, because we have a policy to encourage commercial and industrial development to enhance our tax base, that the Economic Development Coordinator, Steve Nasby, will act as that point person for that project. It may not even involve a rezoning, or anything before Planning and Zoning, and the Council, but it may involve something before the Council for a financial incentive. It may involve working with Public Works to see if there's adequate water and sewer capacity. Working with Mid-American to ensure there's adequate electrical facilities for them, so that Steve in his capacity, would work through all of those issues with that entity to encourage that business to expand or to come to Iowa City, and those are things that are already in place. That's how we handle them now. Bailey/That case management system, you said you work primarily with developers... Franklin/Primarily, yes. Bailey/And I think the people that we would hear most from is smaller business owners, in some way. Now how would a smaller business owner, who wanted to perhaps This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Iowa City Council special work session July 21, 2004. July 21, 2004 Special Council Work Session Page 26 locate a business within a particular zone, and it's not among the listed uses of that zone, how would they be, I mean, how would they work their way through? Franklin/Usually what happens is they will call one of us, myself, Bob, somebody on his staff, and will want to know if they can locate in that particular place, and it could be either the business person themselves, or it could be their real estate agent. And then we go through with them ~vhether it is permitted in that particular place or not. And if it is not, what their options are in terms ofrezoning the property, and whether we believe that we can, in the context of the Comp Plan, support a rezoning. Whether it makes sense to go through the rezoning. Whether if~vhat they want to do is going to be something that would result in some sort of neighborhood rack because we have had experience with areas. We can tell them often (TAPE OVER) Anciaux/...a developer, as they go through, from start to finish. Franklin/You bet, we would be happy to. Anciaux/And I think that would help, seeing what they have to go through. A conference I recently went to, they developed a flow chart and charted where the hang-ups were in the flow chart, and that might help all of us understand where... Bailey/That would be great. Anciaux/...the hang-ups are, or what might be the, if there are any hang-ups... Bailey/Or if what we're hearing, because we usually hear the people who had hang-up and it wasn't really....yeah, we hear about the hang-ups. We don't hear about the successful located... Anciaux/And like I say, a flow chart with a time line, approximately how long it takes to get through, and... Franklin/And what we'll do is we'll do that from the most complex kind of case, which would be an annexation rezoning development. Screened-in porch, sure. Lehman/Comments? Elllott/Philosophically as mentioned earlier this evening, I would very personally not care to see much of that involved in any work on zoning or codes and things like that. I think, I don't want the city to get into designing homes for people. I think that should be left to the homebuyer and the homebuilder, so that's simply how I feel about that sort of thing. And another thing, I was just looking on TV one night and I saw, I believe it was Randall Arndt, a consultant for one of the projects here, and it just seems to me there are times when we're looking backwards instead of forwards. He was talking about wouldn't it be nice to have This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Iowa City Council special work session July 21, 2004. July 21, 2004 Special Council Work Session Page 27 narrow streets where cars stop and let other cars pass, and I thought you know, sometimes I think we've seen too many old Andy Hardy movies. This is a growing city that needs streets, that moves traffic efficiently and effectively and safely, and I think we've got to either decide we're a growing city or we're going to regress and become a little tiny town. And that simply is the way one Councilperson feels, and I may be in the minority, but it's on the Council. Champion/How wide would you like the streets? Elliott/Wide enough for cars to move efficiently and safely. Anciaux/Salt Lake City, they're big enough to turn... Lehman/Turn a what? Anciaux/Turn an ox cart. O'Donnell/How big is an ox cart? Anciaux/Who knows? But that's ..... but I think we do address that with the collector streets, and arterials, and I think that residential streets can be a little bit narrower. Elliott/Except we're building bypasses that are two lanes. I mean, I don't understand that. If you want a bypass, it needs to be a four-lane street. Lehman/That's a Council issue, that's not a P&Z... Elliott/Well I want the planners, if there are other Council persons who agree with that, I want those, those are things I would like for them to hear, and if there are no other Council members (several talking at once) property. I'm not terhbly interested in how people walking down the street view my property. I'm interested in how much it costs me, and I'm interested in what serves my purposes, and if they don't like my house, they can walk down another street. I think we just get terribly concerned with what pedestrians walking down somebody's sidewalk thinks about your house, and we're just overly consumed with that. Bailey/Well, Bob, I just want to remind you from the Comprehensive Plan that Iowa City is the city of neighborhoods, and neighborhoods are typically pedestrian, bike, and car use, and I think that that's what our public has indicated they believe this community is, and I think consideration of what a person walking down the street feels and responds to is something that we value. Elliott/I think if they help pay for my house then they have the right to say something about it. Iftheydon't, they don't. Period. Champion/But we do all kinds of laws that affect... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Iowa City Council special work session July 21, 2004. July 2 I, 2004 Special Council Work Session Page 28 Elliott/No, there has to be some reason. As I said, I want common sense on zoning; I want, we don't want somebody to build a ten-foot wide house that goes fifty feet in the air. Champion/Why? If that's what they want to build. That's what you're saying before. (several talking at once) Elliott/What I'm saying, you pay too much attention to what...we keep talking about what pedestrians walking down the street thinks, and we talk about good neighborhoods. Houses don't make good neighborhoods. Neighbors make good neighborhoods. I don't want to sound like the National Rifle Association (laughter). Well you asked. Lehman/All right. O'Donnell/Bob brought up some valid points about if you own the lot and you're going to build a house, you ought to be able to design the house. This all started because we once talked about a three-car garage, and a percentage that the garage door can be the color of the house, and the Council said if you build the house and you have a lot that'll accommodate three garages, and you want them, go ahead. And I, I really agree with Bob on one point, that if you're paying the mortgage you ought to be able to design your own home, and I like us to enforce building codes, zoning, ordinances, and not really get into design. I do agree with that. Lehman/Are there other comments from Council? (laughter) Let me just say that... Anciaux/I think there's a divergence here, and we have a divergence on our board too, and you guys work your divergence out when you get it. Lehman/There is a diversity on the Council, I can tell you that, and we won't... Elliott/That's why it's so valuable to have Regenia. She adds little... Bailey/I'm the diversity. (laughter) Lehman/Okay, any other comanents, questions? You know, some times we like to make a big issue about how we are different, when we are all very, very much alike, and rather than notice and appreciate the ways we compliment each other, sometimes we emphasize the way we on t, and I think overall the Commission and the staff and the Council are very much in agreement on almost everything. We have our little disagreements, and certainly disagreements in zoning codes and whatever, in the total picture there's not many of those at all, and I think those we've had we've worked out very, very well, and I think there's a tremendous respect on the part of the Com~cil for our staff folks, and for Planning and Zoning, and you folks do...I was on P&Z back in the seventies, and believe me, you work as hard as This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Iowa City Council special work session July 21, 2004. July 21, 2004 Special Council Work Session Page 29 Council does, and you don't get nearly as much credit. You probably also don't get hammered quite as bad when, as we do, but you work very hard. Anciaux/And one of the things I've noticed in the other cities that I've worked in too is that most of the City Council people go on P&Z first, and then go to City Council. Lehman/That's so they can get out of the work. Anciaux/No, that's...yeah, but no, they seem to, you know, here you come from a more divergent area, like I said in these other cities, Newton, Clear Lake, Grinnell, Preston, they don't have the growth problems we have, but like I said most of the times the City Council people came off of P&Z. Champion/Well ! was never on P&Z because I was never going to read that book. Anciaux/Yeah. Lehman/Don't think they all read it either. (laughter) Are we through? Thank you, folks, very much. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of Iowa City Council special work session July 21, 2004.