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Home My WebLink About1996-09-17 TranscriptionSeptember 17, 1996 Council Work Session 4:05 PM Council: Nov, Baker, Kubby, Lehman, Norton, Thomberry, Vanderhoef. Staff: Arkins, Helling, Woito, Karr, Mitchell, McChristy, Rowley, Holecek, Dilkes, Winklehake. Tapes: 96-102, Side 2; 96-106, all; 96-107, all. Report From J. Patrick White 96-102 S2 Nov/Then we are going to have questions from the city council and if we have time, we may have questions from others as well. J. Patrick Whited Thank you, Naomi. I am here really at your invitation and I will talk for a couple of minutes... brie£.. then responsive to your questions .... I am in the 1 lth day of a cold.... my voice will probably give out.... I need to be out of'here by 5:00.... If we don't get done what you would like to cover, I would be happy to come back on some other occasion. I would like to start by giving you a little bit of background about the DCI and the investigative progress. On Tuesday, September 3, I estimated it would be approximately three weeks before the DCI report was complete. I think that estimate remains accurate .... 1 have a meeting with two of the agents Thursday to review where they are and discuss with them follow-up.... bring a DCI report with me just so you see visually what this is about. This is the DCI report of investigation of the shooting at University Hospitals that occurred a couple of months ago... all of these pages have been prepared... clerical work... time consuming.... they are pretty thorough ..... public scrutiny... take a minute to be sure you understand who they are and what their role is. The Division of Criminal Investigation is a division of the State oflowa Department of Public Safety. The Department of Public Safety is overseen by a commissioner who is appointed by the Governor ..... This agency is overseen by a director who is appointed by the head of the Department of Public Safety. They have a variety of offices around the state ..... A post in Cedar Rapids... in Davenport.... This case has been overseen from its outset by Rick Benson who is the agent in charge of the Cedar Rapids post. In the early morning hours, all the shooting, there were probably four DCI agents who arrived from Cedar Rapids and Davenport.... joined 4:00 AM by two agents from the Criminalistics Laboratory out of Des Moines... crime scene specialists .....and the State Medical Examiner who is in the same Department of Public Safety .....ChiefWinklehake, whom I assume made the decision to call them, made absolutely the right decision. The DCI is utilized by local law enforcement in almost every death investigation and they are utilized very frequently in investigations that involved law enforcement personnel ...... Law enforcement agencies... when something happun~ wiih iheiJ officers or their agency begin their own review... internal review... administrative review.... All of those September 17, 1996 Council Work Session page2 are entirely appropriate and an example... is the change in policy that has been done here. Your chief and your city manger... have acted expeditiously with knowledge that they had and implemented a policy change ..... One ofthe things... concern... has been a little bit misunderstood... clarify. When I said on September 3rd that I estimated it would be three weeks before I had the report, I assumed people would understand that my receipt of that report would be of necessity followed by some time by my reading it, reviewing it, digesting it and making a decision ...... The day I receive that report I will announce that I have it and I will give my best estimate as to whether I need one day or two days or a week to do the reading and review and analysis that will be necessary. I am certainly not in the dark even without the written report. I was called at about 2:00 AM after this happened. I was at the Police Station... by about 2:30 AM. 1 was in consultation with Agent Benson and the other agents under his supervision until about 9:00. I visited the scene twice.... 3:00 AM when Agent Benson and I were on our way to the Shaw's home to try to give them as much information as we could at that point and then once again at 7:30 or 8:00 AM when the DCI Criminalistics Laboratory Team had finished it work at the scene, I went to the scene and walked through it ..... I have been in consultation with Agent Benson and Agent DeRoy since then, nearly daily .... I also sat through last Thursday morning a 2 1/2 hour interview of Officer JeffGillaspie ..... I have a significant amount of knowledge.... I am still not prepared... to start to talk about specific facts of which I am now aware.... I would like to be able to, when the time comes, to articulate as many facts as I possibly can.... The Shaw family, the city council, and the community have a right to as much information as we can provide them as quickly as we can provide it.. That remains my goal.... I think that summarizes where the process is ... What I have decided I am going to share with you today which hasn't previously been said is a conclusion that I have reached based on all of the facts that I am now aware of and that is it is my conclusion that the action of Officer Jeffrey Gillaspie in shooting Eric Shaw was not justified Eric Shaw was in a place where he had a fight to be, at a time that he had a right to be there, engaged in activity that he had a right to engage in. He was on the phone talking to a friend. That is not behavior which should put anyone at danger. It is my conclusion that Eric Shaw took no action of any sort which would have conveyed a sense of danger to Officer Gillaspie and that there was not reasonable basis for the use of deadly force. That does not answer the ultimate question which I need to answer which is will criminal charges be filed. That decision will await receipt and review of the report. The fact that I have concluded that the shooting was not justified doesn't automatically equate with criminal charges. Criminal charges involve review of specific statutes, specific intentions, specific evidentiary analysis relative to a variety ofdifferent statutes and I am still going to decline today to speculate on This represents only a reasonable accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of September 17, 1996 WS091796 September 17, 1996 Council Work Session page 3 what charges, if any, might be applicable or what consideration is being given to what charges. The conclusion which I have reached that the shooting was not justified, I need not wait longer to share with you or the community .... Baker/... Can you clarify, does this council have the fight to any more information in this case than the general public does at any time sooner? White/No. It doesn't have a legal right and I am going to read to you ..... just a couple of excerpts from the normal documentation that go into one of these reports. I am reading from one of the DCI reports that I showed you, "This investigative report is the property of the DCI and is made available to your agency for officials purposes only. By Iowa law this is not a public record, it is not to be disseminated outside of your agency. This is a police investigative report. It contains references to persons and facts not publicly know ...... "There are also potential civil and criminal sanctions for improper re-dissemination. By the same token, I have fairly wide discretion in what I determine to be official business. This is a case where there is no doubt in my mind that I will determine it to be official business... to disclose as much information as I can as quickly as I can. You stand technically, relative to the DCI report, in the same place as any member of the public would. In the exercise of my discretion, I will always try to share information on a need to know basis. For example, in this case, your city manager and I have consulted a couple of times about policy questions and I have shared with Ifim very limited but some facts which I have not otherwise disclosed. I have shared some facts with John McLario, who's is a representative of the family ..... Baker/...We had no clear sense of what we could or should know. White/ One of the things that some of you will remember. In 1991 when we had the Gang Lu murders, I was involved in that case and a variety of folks were complimentary .... over how much information we released quickly ..... It was clear in that case there was not going to be a criminal prosecution.. From the outset I had much more latitude in disclosing investigative information than I would where criminal charges were pending or possible. If it tums out that criminal charges are filed here, I will be much more constrained in my ability to speak publicly about the contents of the investigation than would be the case if charges were not to be filed. Norton/What was the earliest you might have made the statement that you just made? .... White/Dee, I made the tentative decision to tell you what 1 have told you today Friday .... In reflecting particularly on the 2 1/2 hour interview we did Thursday morning with Officer Gillaspie. This represents only a reasonable accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of September 17, 1996 WS091796 September 17, 1996 Council Work Session page 4 Thomberry/You said the interview with Officer Gillaspic was done on... Thursday and this is a re-interview. When was he first interviewed? White/In the early morning hours of Saturday after the shooting. Thornberry/How soon did you say the DCI was contacted after the shooting? White/l am not sure how soon. They were- When I got to the Police Station about 2:30 and they were here and clearly in charge. They had even by then.... pretty much preempted the Chief's office and his conference room and were operating out that location. Thomberry/ White/ Kubby/ Arkins/The notes show 12:10 they were contacted. So within 15 minutes after the incident. Norton/Who controls the scene during that 30 minutes? ..... White/The Iowa City Police Department controlled the scene really throughout the evening. The DCI did not make the decision that they needed to take physical control of the scene. It was their professional judgment that the members of the Iowa City Police Department... were capable and adequately trained to secure and control the scene until the laboratory crew arrived. Baker/Does the DCI report come with any kind of recommendation to you? .... White/Just factual .....They will document the facts and they will leave the judgment to others. Baker/Will the DCI report, probably though some sort of forensic determination, be able to clearly settle the question of where Eric Shaw was when he was shot? .... White/1 don't know. It is often the case you have factual questions that are never answerable in the absolute... I am confident we will be able to tell you with considerable accuracy how close these two individuals were to each other. Nov/ ....repeating the same people .... This represents only a reasonable accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of September 17, 1996 WS091796 September 17, 1996 Council Work Session page 5 Kubby/In terms of your decision, either you can make the decision as to whether or not there are criminal charges, if there are, what they are, on who they are filed and that you also have the opportunity to call the Grand Jury. Will you explain what that process is and what the downsides and upsides are for whether you do it or a Grand Jury does it in terms of getting information to the public. White/Iowa has a Grand Jury system which is a bit of a anachronism. It is hardly used anymore. We haven't used a Grand Jury in Johnson County .... other than a hand full where I disagreed with a district judge.... A Grand Jury is continually in existence .... Kubby/...A Grand Jury process... confidence in that process.... What goes on during that Grand Jury process is secret ..... never really very accessible. White/Proceedings of a Grand Jury are absolutely confidential ..... They can not be disclosed for any reason whether there is a charge filed or not. In this case I didn't give any serious consideration to using a Grand Jury for a variety of reasons.... I think I am elected by this community to make decisions like this. I am visible... accessible... accountable .... Baker/Pat, could you elaborate.... tried to have contact with Shaw fanfily to share information with them ..... White/1 would rather not elaborate very far ..... preferably private to them.... Agent Benson and I. said to each other... We need to meet and communicate as best as we can as early as we can with Jay and Blossom Shaw and we went to their home for that purpose ..... We had a couple of telephone contacts then in the early morning hours of Saturday... Reverend Dean.... Agent Benson had at least one additional telephone call of the family.... Mr. McLario's involvement, I have stayed in touch with him ..... 3-4 times... exchanged some correspondence.... I undertook to inform the family that I was going to do that by calling Mr. McLario and telling him that I was expecting to say that today. I assumed that he shared that with them this afternoon. Baker/ Nov/Ernie .... Norton/Were the three officers involved in contact during the 30 minutes prior to the arrival of the DCI? This represents only a reasonable accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of September 17, 1996 WS091796 September 17, 1996 Council Work Session page 6 White/They were in contact in the very few seconds after the shooting before others arrived, yes. They were the three people who were there and had some interaction with each other almost immediately. Norton/Were there any recordings of any sort taken by any means?... White/There were some. I can't answer yet fully. But the communications with the dispatch center were recorded. In fact the Shaw family had a question... that related to cormnunications.... I went directly to the Communications Center, myself... the two people... locate the recordings that were in their systems.. listened to them that morning. Thomberry/Once the DCI report is completely.... you to decide what charges to bring if any. Will you be in consultation with anyone else in making this decision or is it entirely yours? White/Both. 1 will be consulting with a variety of individuals but the decision will be entirely mine. I will be in consultation with Agent Benson and his investigators .... continued communication with a variety of other people ... I may well visit with people whose judgment I trust.... expertise in law enforcement matters.... Harold Young, long time Assistance Attorney General.... to pick his brain a little bit... more of those consultations... I will also utilize some of my own staff..... But the decision will be mine .... Baker/... You also have the prerogative to release all of that report or parts of it? White/Yes, I do ..... If you go back to the Gang Lu case.... There were no charges files... What we did in that case was we held a press conference ..... summarizing what the legal analysis would have been... we fielded questions. We released excerpts from the report but not nearly its entirety ..... Gang Lu had written some letters and I made the decision that there was not a need for the public to have the entire verbatim text for those letters. I released an edited version ..... It would be pretty unlikely that I would release the entirety of the report and my goal is to release as much as I can as soon as I can but if there are charges, I will be very constrained. If there are not charges, I will make judgments about how much of it should be released publicly. There will be mechanisms for those that have a legitimate need to know for more than I release There will be mechanisms for them to gain access to it if necessary. Kubby/If there are charges, you are constraint is an impending trial? White/Yes. This represents only a reasonable accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of September 17, 1996 WS091796 September 17, 1996 Council Work Session page 7 Kubby/ .....after that do you still have further judgments to make as to whether certain things are released or not? White/Once a case is over, I have much more liberty to release.... My goal is as much as I can as early as I can .....Primarily for the Shaw family... secondafily for the community. Norton/You say the council has not more right to information... we are in a position of responsibility to respond to families... cities.... How can we do that? ......knowing nothing. White/it is very difficult ..... gathering information on your own.... It was in the best interests of the DCI investigation and it integrity not to start immediately a second track of interviewing people in trying to document things.... let the DCI do its work and to take maximum advantage of that work rather than starting from scratch ..... There was a shooting in of a citizen by an officer in Cedar Rapids earlier this year. The report from the Attorney General in that case was released within the last week. Six months after it occurred ..... The iowa Attorney General is a very competent, very professional agency ..... That is an example of people who felt that it was necessary of them to take that kind of time. Baker/Does the State Attorney General have a role in this investigation? White/No. Norton/Do insurance companies have any particular access to facts or investigative sources that the rest of us don't? White Yes. Norton/Why? White/ Because you have a contractual obligation with an insurance company which attaches to your officers, agents, and employees ..... They have the ability to ask people for information and gather it ..... Their attorney... his information gathering will be confidential.... That company and its counsel would make judgments whether and when it needs to share information with its insured ..... A question you should take up with Steve and Linda ..... Yes, they do have a contractual right which puts them in a somewhat different status. Thornberry/Who do we complain to for being so frustrated? .... White/Me ..... This represents only a reasonable accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of September 17, 1996 WS091796 September 17, 1996 Council Work Session page 8 Lehman/Pat, I really appreciate you being here .....I think perhaps we have better answers .... Whited Nov/Thank you for coming and thank you for answering all of these questions .....Do you want to go ahead with public questions. Whited I am at your disposal .... Nov/We have a 5:00 agenda ...... This is not a media conference... only non-media people who questions are still pending should come forward to the microphone .....I prefer that the general public be given an opportunity to speak first ..... Lynne Tyleed .... I am a citizen oflowa City. I want to direct the question to the County Attorney. Last week.... one ofthe questions that came up... regarding having a civilian review board. I would be interested in hearing from you what your stance on having a civilian review board ..... Grand Jury... I think I heard you say you didn't think that was a good idea in this situation. I would like that clarified mid the last thing ..... about 100 people last week ..... about 40 of us spoke.... By the number of people that showed up... very clear that a pretty high percentage ..... of the people in the city would like to have some kind of civilian review board. The idea was.... that we felt that the county system, the police scrutinizing themselves is problematic for us and we all feel very strongly about being involved in the process. Nov/Lynne, can we get to an answer.... have more time for others. Thank you. Tyleed .....In closing, therefore.... I would like to know did I hear you correctly about the Grand Jury? White/You did. Tylee/Are you open to the civilian review board and are you aware of the amount of people in this city that are behind that idea and where do you stand on that? White/1 think I am. I did not see the meeting. I read news accotints of it which I assume were largely accurate ..... To speak to the Grand Jury question, part of the rationale is I tlfink somebody needs to be accountable on the record and I am it ..... elected... accessible... I think the information needs to get into the public domain and a Grand Jury wouldn't do that. It is a secret confidential proceeding that would charge or not charge and I don't think this is a case where that is appropriate. This represents only a reasonable accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of September 17, 1996 WS091796 September 17, 1996 Council Work Session page 9 Whether a civilian review board is created is entirely a policy decision for the seven folks in front of me to make ..... You already have two civilian review boards. The seven people who sit in front of me are a civilian review board to whatever extent they wish themselves to be ..... Secondly, the Civil Service Commission already exists which has direct input in screening and hiring law enforcement personnel and direct review of any disciplinarian decision that is made that is appealed to that panel. Third, I would urge moving very cautiously.... and be very clear on what goals that committee or commission would serve in addition to the role the city council now serves and Civil Service Commission now serves.... You need to be sure it does detract from the accountability of the elected representatives.... You need to be very careful in the context... over how slow it is to get to information .... Citizen review panels... tendency to slow things down even more ...... have a tendency to be slightly more lenient than other existing mechanisms on law enforcement personnel ..... Eric Rothenbuhler/ .... remind council and members of the media... that DCI investigation and work of the county attorney are investigating the very important question of whether there was criminal wrong doing in this case. We also have to deal with... whether there was managerial wrong doing ..... Separate investigation of the management of police officers and their use of deadly force and their legitimate use of the threat of deadly rome. That requires a different investigation that will have different outcomes ..... Nov/Is there someone who has a question for Mr. White? Colleen Finnegan/... question concerning something that was in the paper last week ..... The Chief of Police stated that barring some psychological approval or test, that the officers in question would be allowed or reinstated and with your judgment today that Officer Gillaspic was not justified in his action, am I fight in believing that the statement was presumptuous by the Chief?. CHANGE TAPE TO REEL 96-106 SIDE 1 Wtfite/The procedure wlfich the Chief has articulated for reviewing when officers return to duty is one that, based on my experience, is pretty normal around the country and I think appropriate and I have some views on that but I think it is inappropriate for me to share them in this public forum. I don't mind saying.... in the exchange of information and questions, 1 have discussed that with the city manager in the last day or two ..... But the notion of looking to some psychological assessment before a return to duty is quite appropriate. That wouldn't be the only factor that would enter into that ..... This represents only a reasonable accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of September 17, 1996 WS091796 September 17, 1996 Council Work Session page10 Arkins/I don't recall the exact statement that the Chief made. I can tell you what we did. There were three officers involved. Officer Troy Kelsey and Darian Zacharias have had a psychological evaluation at the Chiefs direction. That information is in his hands ..... Officer Jeff Gillaspie is represented by counsel and to my knowledge has not had that same psychological evaluation. I think there is a little bit of a misunderstanding. The Chief is aware and my instructions to him is that these officers will not be returned to duty without my approval which is my responsibility. I do not see Officer Gillaspie returning to duty for some time if ever.... Officers Zacharias and Kelsey, I need to read those reports. I need to make those decisions and the Chief is very supportive of that. Kubby/Do you have a time frame for that? Arkins/No, I don't. Dave Moore/My question is there has been a lot of talk.. idea of citizens review board of some kind. There has also been talk about an outside independent investigation of the Police Department ..... That talk has kind of got lost in the shuffle, I feel ..... Have either you or the city manager thought about that issue?.... lfan outside source was to believe that there has been an environment of disrespect in this community from the Police Department in the last 5-6 years, then in speaking about accountability, who do you believe should be held accountable? White/ I should people should be accountable for their actions whatever they are... The DCI is an outside independent agency. It has no connection with the 1owa City Police Department ..... DCI.. In the report that I will review.... has to do with what happened surrounding the death of Eric Shaw. It is not larger than that .....I will have no hesitation to speak to the context in which that death occurred .....City manager... I think the perception that there was a policy context that needed to begin to be addressed. I think the city has responded well to that and quickly ..... Moore/ White/I think it is important because it is what Iowa City. Anything that happens in this community.... is going to get looked at very closely .... Moore/Is an outside independent investigation, when people speak about that .... could be some kind of citizens group... Are there also instances where somebody from the outside has hired people that do this on a regular basis? .... White/I am sure there is.... Add one other thing about citizen's review panel. IfI were asked.... Ifl personally see anything in the existing process that I would personally recommend be changed, 1 would probably say I would recommend creating an This represents only a reasonable accurate transcription of tile Iowa City council meeting of September 17, 1996 WS091796 Septe~nber 17, 1996 Council Work Session page 11 independent intake process for complaints against police officers ..... Iowa City Police Department... they have been very good about looking into those ..... There are probably instances out there that they don't hear about... process... if you have a complaint.... would be productive to have some other repository of complaints .... some other intake process ..... Nov/I am going to move to the next item on the agenda which is a city council discussion of various police reviews ..... This represents only a reasonable accurate transcription of the 1owa City couucil meeting of September 17, 1996 WSO91796 September 17, 1996 Council Work Session page 12 Police Review Systems 96-106 SI Atkins/I first like to start out ..... a council work session. This is a fairly free flowing conversation, discussion, debate, whatever... We don't observe parliamentary procedure. It is not intended to be an audience participation ..... outline an issue .... First of all we have to start out with some initials ..... CRB, citizen review board. The memo... is substantially based upon the work of Dr. Douglas Perez ..... Vermont... former police officer in California ..... Citizen review system... can take all sorts of directions.... We have been able to find and secure maybe half dozen ordinances from other communities... communities a little larger than us .....gets into larger cities. I have shown you some of the basic principles ..... Thornberry/Are there any other cities... in Iowa that have a citizen review. Atkins/The City of Dubuque has.... Dubuque Community Advisory Panel This is a citizen form... they discuss substantially civil rights, human rights, and I think there is a little spill over into some of the other ordinances that we have.... That is about the closest that we have got ..... They have some detailed procedures .... Kubby/ Atkind I talked to Des Moines...batted it around for a number of years .....Glansburg has discussed the need for a statewide panel ..... Thomberry/... are there any other Big Ten schools? Atkins/We did not survey in that fashion... Minneapolis has one ..... Nov/ Atkins/ ......simply haven't gotten that far into the surveys. 1 was more concerned... get language of their ordinance, thought process.... We can certainly do more research for you. In the memo... factors for a review system. I want to point out... integrity of the review system. There are five points: fairness, thoroughness, objectivity, legal defensibility and review process.... five questions you have got to ask all of the time as you are discussing this ..... has to meet sort of those five tests all along ..... reminded that we need to meet those five tests. Baker/Steve... on that page... under "notes, 3. Access to police records is critical. (questionable under 1owa law)." Would you clarify that for me? This represents only a reasonable accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of September 17, 1996 WS091796 September 17, 1996 Council Work Session page 13 Arkins/I have not discussed this in detail with Linda ..... There are police reports that are considered confidential and how we gain access to those for the purpose of this type of review, investigation, I simply don't know fight now... critical elements .... she is going to have to come up with a legal opinion on this matter to determine just what is available for the purpose of investigation ..... Nov/There are also some of them that are available .... Bake# Woito/For purposes of a criminal investigation, the report is kept confidential except to the particulars of the location, the incident, etc. But once the investigation is completed, the criminal is a public record and has lost its confidentiality.... most of the police records are not confidential. However, there will be incidences during the course ofthe internal review where we keep the matters confidential until there has been a determination whether misconduct has occurred ..... There are provisions in the Union contract which requires that some of those records are taken out of the personnel records after a certain length of time. That has been negotiated in the Union contract .....The public is entitled to know the disciplinary problem that any police officer has ..... Nov/ Woito/They have been purged from the personnel file. Nov/ Thomberry/...example, a problem with a police officer and a juvenile. Would that be kept confidential because of the one participant was a juvenile? Woito/Only to the extent that the state law... only it fit within a narrow scope of facts under state law dealing with a juvenile.... case by case basis.... sometimes with a juvenile it would be privileged. Thornberry/ Woito/Generally it would be my understanding that all of this information would be available to a CRB except ..... Kubby/ Baker/I was just trying 1o determine if something was automatically preempted from- This represents only a reasonable accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of September 17, 1996 WS091796 September 17, 1996 Council Work Session page 14 Woito/No, there is not that much. Norton/That information is available to Civil Service Commission .....I take it. Atkins/And the Civil Service hearings are conducted openly .....public meetings ..... The next point, particularly important to staff... working through a memo the council has in front of them.... critical that anything we choose to put in place be a learning experience. #2 is particularly critical ..... If we choose to do this, it is going to have a beating upon the relationship between the department and the community ..... respect to the training programs.... matter of the law enforcement academy in Des Moines where we send our officers for training ..... Nov/Do we then assume we need some information about the training materials on use of force and comparing them with our current practices? Arkins/Yes, absolutely ..... Our officers are being trained in Des Moines, what they are learning there, what we wish to apply to our own community ..... community standards of conduct... sometimes there is going to be a conflict. We need to identify those things and we have to work them out .... Baker/ Atkins/Ifthere is a question about the use of force and the means by which it is conducted, it comes as a result of training ..... This does not directly affect the review board but it is one of the times that we are talking about right now. Kubby/It could end up to a challenge to the academy as well. Arkins/ .... Nov/Rumors are flying that the academy does train officers to use a warning shot and we need to clarify about that. Atkins/I am not familiar with that. Nov/ Arkins/The next element ..... whether this is going to be a short term, incident specific, case specific, ad hoc or is this something you wish to place as permanent policy .... Great deal of it depends upon the County Attorney and the release of information... Our own internal disciplinarian review process which is under way ..... The other is the more permanent nature ..... This represents only a reasonable accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of September 17, 1996 WS091796 September 17, 1996 Council Work Session p~e15 Finally are the elements of Iowa law. For some reason I think the public has forgotten about the fact the any disciplinary process is subject to appeal by the person being disciplined to the Civil Service Commission ..... },as the ability to change discipline, add to, take away from.... Officer involved also has the ability to appeal to court ..... Norton/Were there a review board is place.... recommend a sanction, that would still ultimately end up at the Civil Service ..... AtEins/One of the powers you will have to decide if you choose to create something of a permanent nature, you will have to decide the power you choose to grant to them. As I pointed out to you.... you cannot abdicate certain responsibilities you have under Civil Service law.... all the due process issues .... Kubby/Is it possible to expand the authority of the Civil Service Commission... to have some of the duties ofa CRB? Woito/Under state law, currently, no unless you want to go to the legislature. Baker/Is it part of the Civil Service review process ..... Woito/It is very fact and site specific as to a particular officer, a particular incident and the investigation that was provided to them. They review the facts and the procedures. Baker/They don't evaluate the procedures and policies? Woito/In terms of what they are really evaluating is the discipline that was meted out by the Police Chief with respect to that officer. Then they review whether that is appropriate under the circumstances including Iowa law, U.S. Constitutional law and our procedures. Baker/ Woito/Whatever is in front of them .... Kubby/ Woito/ Nov/It is also their jurisdiction to increase or decrease the discipline as well as to say yes or no. This represents only a reasonable accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of September 17, 1996 WS091796 September 17, 1996 Council Work Session page 16 Woito/Yes. Norton/Their charge says something about they ascertain to the best of their abilities the facts of the case. What does that mean?....secondary information. Woito/It is a quasi-judicial hearing. They are sitting as judges... sworn testimony... full record. It is like a mini-trial. The standard of evidence is an administrative standard. It is not beyond a reasonable doubt. It is barely even a preponderance of the evidence. Kubby/ Woito/The fact that you have this legal remedy and structure that is fairly rigid and has been in place for 100 years... does not preclude you from doing something independent and parallel. Norto~d .... Who are we talking about here is one thing?... Which ones are covered by Civil Service?... Woito/The sworn deputies are covered by Civil Service, the upper most supervisory officers are exempt. They are not protected. Norton/ Woito/It is a sworn officer, certified as an office~; sworn peace officer as defined by state law but it does not include.. the civilian employees, dispatchers,... animal control .... community service officers... supervisory people... Protects mostly the people in the Union. Baker/Chief and who else? Woito/Captains are covered. Everyone but the chief is covered... It is broader than 1 recall. Baker/(Can't hear). Woito/He has other due process and statutory protections. Kubby/ This represents only a reasonable accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of September 17, 1996 WS091796 September 17, 1996 Council Work Session page 17 Baker/Steve, as part of your presentation, are you going to take us through what is the procedure now, the internal procedure for a complaint against an officer? How is an officer disciplined internally before it gets to the Civil Service? Arkins/ ....lfwe have a compliant... referred to as an internal investigation... writing.. referred to the captain of the patrol... upon conclusion of his investigation he makes recommendations to the Chief with respect to whether discipline is appropriate.... The Chief will check with me on the type of discipline... that is pretty much it. Baker/What happens ... if there is no cause for the complaint.... citizen...? Arkins/The process would end there .....citizen.. can come to me. They can come to you .... Kubby/So that would be the recourse for the citizen. Arkins/ Baker/ Arkins/What I would like to do now is go to the discussion element (page 5).... meat of the thing.... What are you interested in seeing accomplished? Our research shows that.. overwhelming majority of these types of systems, CRBs, involve a citizen initiated to another citizen body... complaint against the actions of a police officer. That is the overwhelming .. And then there is another one which is a policy review process. But overwhehningly it is citizens who have a complaint about a police officer's conduct ..... That appears to be... most of them ..... Norton/That is a category that we have no clear standing procedure for that. Atkins/ ....if you want to take it outside of that process, that is what we have to create... Norton/Ombudsperson kind of approach. Arkins/It doesn't really function a whole heck of a lot different ..... I think you will find... citizen review boards ..... strongest element is that the citizen intake process occur by some citizen reviewer, non-police. That the information is taken by that individual and that that information is then reviewed by that citizen intake process. That appears to me the real meat of the CRB ..... They strongly recommend that the intake... not even occur in the Police Department. Set an office up somewhere else ...... I want to complain to somebody else who will take that information outside that office. They, then, become the contact person ..... The moment a This represents only a reasonable accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meetiug of September 17, 1996 WS091796 September 17, 1996 Council Work Session page 18 complaint is filed, the Chief has to be notified so they can begin an internal review of the same circumstance. At the end both reports come together to the CRB ..... It is also the most expensive way to do it... Chief has the ability... order them to answer ..... Baker/Order them to answer ..... Woito/There is a body of procedural due process law established by the U.S. Supreme Court and it says that for administrative purposes, if you are being interviewed by your superior as an employee, including a police officer for possible discipline, you must answer the question and you may not refuse to answer the question. If there is a potential for criminal prosecution, you may refuse to answer and invoke the Fifth Amendment.... two very different bodies of law. Kubby/...value of independent ..... Arkins/ Kubby/When you have these parallel investigations, can one appear to interfere with the other. Arkins/It could appear ...... Berkeley... they found that both the employee and the citizen enjoys the benefit of both. They come together at the tail end. Kubby/Who makes the actual decision? Arkins/CRB makes the call but you have the benefit of all the information. In Richmond ..... clear and convincing evidence.... having all of the information Kubby/ Atkins/I am throwing all of this stuff at you .... Baker/...determine facts .... Atkinrd Under state law in Iowa, only the chief of police, city manager and Civil Service Commission can actually impose the discipline. Kubby/But they can make recommendations to the Chief or to you? Arkins/Yes.... make recommendations... present the evidence ..... Thornberry/...In Berkeley... 100 cases per year, why would the cost be $400,000 a year? This represents only a reasonable accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of September 17, 1996 WS091796 September 17, 1996 Council Work Session page 19 Atkins/The citizens review process involved independent investigation. Who is that? CRB has a budget... investigators ....pay those people .....internal by the police is done by existing staff... Baker/ .....a dozen complaints... how long? Atkins/That was the actual discipline that the chief had authorized. We had about l0 internal complaints a year ..... Once you create this opportunity, other folks are going to wish to ..... I think you have to expect that.... Everyone of them said they must be timely... 45 days to ninety days... procedures .... Norton/If you had a board or a panel ..... kind of investigate the reasonableness or background of those complaints... identify general policies and procedures that need to be corrected. Atkins/They would identify those which are in conflict with ..... learning process.... pattern that this policy either needs to be tightened or loosened ..... Remember, the disciplinary process is normally not a violation of law, it is a violation of some kind of policy .....I think it becomes apparent from actual review process itself.. there is the problem. Norton/ Atkins/ Kubby/Unless it is directed as a purview, it won't get done ..... Arkins/How you write the charge .... Norton/ Kubby/ Atkins/The charge is important. Thornbeny/You have got to have some guidelines ..... Kubby/I am talking about the role we want a CRB to play. What are the areas that are legitimate to look at? Arkins/ .....The charge to the group, I think, is going to be very critical to what you want to achieve. This represents only a reasonable accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of September 17, 1996 WS091796 September 17, 1996 Council Work Session page 20 Nov/Is this ordinarily set up as guidelines or as ordinance.9 Atkins/Everything we have seen has been an ordinance and the guidelines are actually built into the ordinance .....Creating a formal board or commission, I think, requires an ordinance .....I don't have a strong opinion about resolution or ordinances on that. Vanderhoef/ Arkins/lfit is ad hoc and shorter term to deal with specific circumstances, you can declare that virtually immediately.... You can call together a committee ..... I want to discuss, so there is a very clear understanding, this issue of independence. Independent means independent ..... So that I understand, if you are going to create a CRB, it is going to be appointed by somebody.... you... that you would make the decision on the appointees to that. That lessens the independence right away because you are going to want folks you want on there. Kubby/ ....Springford, Illinois is trying to get a combination of appointed and elected members. Atkins] ...somebody has to make the selection, that is you. Kubby/The community could elect people to be on the board. Atkins/Actually call for an election on it? Kubby/ ....so that there is a combination of elected CRB as well as appointed .... Thornberry/ ....independent from everybody. Atkim/I am making an assumption that you will move to resolution on that fairly quickly... assume that it is your call that you are going to pick this group. Nov/... independent means independent from the police force ..... Arkins/That is a clear theme throughout here ..... Making the assumption that it is city council appointed... it is going to have to have a budget.... I haven't the foggiest idea how to estimate that for you ..... They have to have resources if they are going to do business... subject to all the state financial restrictions, applicable law... expenditures will ultimately have to cross my desk in some fashion.... I still have This represents only a reasonable accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of September 17, 1996 WS091796 September 17, 1996 Council Work Session page 21 the fiduciary responsibility for the community's money ..... It does have some element of control ..... financial restrictions .... Thomberyl AtEins/We have a Human Rights Commission... coordinator ....she has a board.... board is trained in mediating the whole- CHANGE TAPE TO REEL 96-106 SIDE 2 Helling/The board not only makes determinations about whether there is probable cause that discrimination occurred. But they are also involved in a process they call conciliation which is very similar to mediation.... Human Rights Commission requires a good deal ofprofessional assistance.... staff. ....outsiders.... requires specific training if it is done effectively ..... Thomberry/ AtEins/A question you have to think about is how would you staff this? ..... Heather.. Casey... investigating the complaints that come in... Heather and Casey make decisions on the spot ..... Citizens review is a far broader set of circumstances and judgments will be made. But you do have to provide them with a budget .... conduct an independent investigation. Norton/ Atkin'd ....doing all the things to deal with the allegation. I don't think we need to spend time on the board make up .... This represents only a reasonable accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of September 17, 1996 WS091796 September 17, 1996 Council Work Session page22 Citizen Review Board Discussion 96-106 S2 Atkins/What I would like to put up for you now- I will create a target for you. Here is a CRB... general outline, have at it. (Atkins, Woito and council review following chart:) Citizen (non-police) intake of original complaint Arkins/It is a citizen. That person would have to have some training.... rules .... Complaint taken outside of police offices Atkins/That is somewhere other than the Police Department .....I would think... give them a form... I would prefer that person sit down with someone and spend time with them ..... Baker/...anonymity? Atkins/I think that is a policy you would have to say ..... We can only do so much information... you may have to step forward at some time .....Outside the police offices... have to think how we are going to do that ..... Police informed (Chief) with the origination of a complaint Arkins/... he needs to know what is going on and the nature of the complaint. Baker/If there is determination... that this is not a viable claim .... Arkins/I think the Chief needs to be informed of all of the complaints regardless of merit.... Human Rights... we have a law... If someone comes in that says I have a complaint that Karen wasn't nice to me .....that is not a violation and they are told on the spot ..... Citizen (non-police) investigation of complaint ($ for investigation resources) Arkins/If we are going to conduct these investigations, we have got to think about appropriating money ..... We are not flush with a lot of private investigators .... CRB has to have the authority to seek. Nov/Some of the examples do not have to have that authority ..... Arkins/One of the things ..... intake is taken by the citizen ..... The actual investigation is done by the police... Berkeley runs the parallel systems ..... Kubby/ ....CRB runs their own investigation ..... Atkins/We are not in disagreement on that.... Do you mn two parallel investigations? This represents only a reasonable accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of September 17, 1996 WS091796 September 17, 1996 Council Work Session page 23 Nov/I am not truly interested in two parallel investigations but I am interested in a citizens panel...having access to the same information as the Police Department. Arkins/I think that is a question that Linda will have to answer... made the assumption that the records are made available to these folks ..... confidentially... Review Board cannot go out and blab to the whole world .....if they are entitled to confidential information ..... Nov/ Woito/I would like to get away from comparing this to the Human Rights Ordinance .... our Human Rights Ordinance is governed by state law in terms of anyone who comes and complains about a discrimination has absolute right to confidentiality throughout the entire investigation as a matter of state law as well as a matter of our own City Code.... Administrative mini-trial ..... at that point, it can become public. What you are talking about now is like apples and oranges. Nov/If this citizen's committee has access to police files, can they be restricted to keep that confidential....? Woito/Of course. Baker/... process of investigation. The Human Rights Commission has full-time director and half time investigator.... How often, if ever, does the Human Rights Commission have to go out and hire outside investigators to handle its procedural work? Woito/We don't. Baker/Staff and commission are able to handle that kind of thing? Woito/Yes. Baker/ Alkins/ Helling/....the Human Rights Commission and our staff are precluded under a long standing city attorney's opinion ..... that it is a conflict of interest for our staff to investigate any complaint against.... the City oflowa City .... This represents only a reasonable accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of September 17, 1996 WS091796 September 17, 1996 Council Work Session page24 Arkins/What I was t~jing to point out to you was that you can hire staff... or hire by contract someone to do the investigation. Either way, you have got to grant resources to the CRB to do their job .... Baker/One ofthe option.. extension of Human Rights Commission role .... Atkins/Have them become the CRB? 1 can't imagine that. Nov/ Woito/You could do that but I don't think that is what I heard being talked about at our last council meeting ..... Have you rejected the notion of an incident specific or policy ad hoc committee or are you still keeping those balls up in the air as well as looking at something more permanent? Kubby/We haven't rejected that .... Norton/...Don't have... need some mechanism... implies some kind of a standing agency. Woito/Your concerns about money and budgeting are going to be quite different for the incident specific and the review of policies in the Police Depmment as opposed to something ongoing. Kubby/It may be both. Norton/Ongoing... hear complaints... spin off recommendations about changes in policies and procedures... training... Woito/There may be a cheaper way to do that on an ad hoc... Charter Review is a good example.... They were all very respected people... all walks of life... very independent minded.... That would be a cheaper approach. Kubby/ Nov/ Arkins/ Police initiate investigation process Atkins/That simply means they will conduct their routine internal investigation providing the information that they would normally do prior to the issuance of any kind of discipline This represents only a reasonable accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of September 17, 1996 WS091796 September 17, 1996 Council Work Session page 25 All complaints must be in writing Arkins/ ....important that we sit down with someone and help them through that... tape it, type it.. got to be put in writing. All complaints must be in timely fashion (say 60 days from date of alleged incident) Atkins/I just put 60 days. That is your call .... Investigate reports are combined and reviewed by CRB Arkins/This is getting a little more specific .... CRB can ask for more information, interview complainant, officers, etc. Atkins/The Board then has the choice of asking for more information ..... CRB can offer (assist) in mediation process ^tkins/Mediation process... There may be a complaint... actually suggest that they would mediate. Bring the officer in, bring the complainant in and talk it out. You could resolve the thing there ...... Confidentially must be confirmed by legal opinion CRB refers to their findings to Chief of Police and City Manager Chief of Police to take appropriate action with respect to discipline Discipline may be appealed to Civil Service Commission Kubby/Can we get a copy of this? Arkins/I wrote this afternoon... I will put this together for you .... I wanted to create a target for you folks. You need to tell me now, are there elements that you like, dislike.... discussion goes back to you all now. Lehman/How many complaints are resolved at the Police Station? Atkins/I couldn't tell you .... This represents only a reasonable accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of September 17, 1996 WS091796 September 17, 1996 Council Work Session page 26 Lehman/Up front process ..... might be to sit down and visit with people to see if it can be resolved.... Procedural standpoint.... if we could solve it up front .... Arkins/Take the mediation process and move it up closer to the front end ..... Kubby/ ....needs to be some tracking .... Thomberry/All I want is an apology .....I am not going to apologize. Kubby/...maybe not agree but to hear how the other person is feeling and how they perceive the situation ..... Thornbery/To run a department with a CRB revising my policies on a weekly or monthly basis, I couldn't mn my department. Norton/They wouldn't be doing that .... They would recommend a change of policy to the Chief, to the city manager.... to the council at some point.... They wouldn't have the power to change things unilaterally. Thomberry/ Kubby/Feels like we need to slow down for a minute.... I am not sure we are clear about what all the roles are that a CRB could possibly play. I would like to step back for a minute and try to list what are all of those roles... appropriate for out community. Arkins/ Nov/We at least need an ad hoc group to review policies and procedures that currently exist and if they should or should not be revised ..... Atkins/I think that is a way leap ahead ..... Nov/It appears that the variety ofcomplaints dealt with a variety of procedures ..... Baker/... I agree with Steve that this particular incident triggers questions about particular policy .....To say we are going to review everything wouldn't be my immediate goal. Kubby/Put that on a list as a possibility... Let's make a list... Norton/You mean an ad hoe committee to review policies and procedures. Nov/City council should do that. This represents only a reasonable accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of September 17, 1996 WS091796 MICROFILMED BY -/ INFORMATION TECHNOLOGIES R C - 84 September 17, 1996 Council Work Session page 26 Lehman/Up front process ..... might be to sit down and visit with people to see if it can be resolved.... Procedural standpoint.... if we could solve it up front ... Arkins/Take the mediation process and move it up closer to the front end ..... Kubby/ ....needs to be some tracking .... Thomberry/All I want is an apology .....I am not going to apologize. Kubby/...maybe not agree but to hear how the other person is feeling and how they perceive the situation ..... Thornbery/To run a department with a CRB revising my policies on a weekly or monthly basis, I couldn't run my department. Norton/They wouldn't be doing that ..... They would recommend a change of policy to the Chief, to the city manager.... to the council at some point.... They wouldn't have the power to change things unilaterally. Thomberry/ Kubby/Feels like we need to slow down for a minute.... 1 am not sure we are clear about what all the roles are that a CRB could possibly play. I would like to step back for a minute and try to list what are all of those roles... appropriate for out community. Atkins/ Nov/We at least need an ad hoc group to review policies and procedures that currently exist and if they should or should not be revised ..... Arkins/I think that is a way leap ahead ..... Nov/It appears that the variety of complaints dealt with a variety of procedures ..... Baker/... I agree with Steve that this particular incident triggers questions about particular policy .....To say we are going to review everythiug wouldn't be my immediate goal. Kubby/Put that on a list as a possibility... Let's make a list... Norton/You mean an ad hoc committee to review policies and procedures. Nov/City council should do that. This represeats only a reasonable accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of September 17, 1996 WS091796 September 17, 1996 Council Work Session page 27 Lehman/City policy should be reviewed as instances dictate ..... Norton/Individual complaints will give rise to the big policy. Naomi is talking about with respect to the present situation.....some aspects may need to take a hard look at. Maybe the council should do that review. Kubby/I like both. I like having a group of people looking at the overall policies and procedures of the Police Department on some regular basis.....adhoc group that met once every five years to look at overall policies .... Lehman/How much expertise... to be able to review policy? .....very complicated ..... Kubby/ Norton/You can also get technical advise to a committee Lehman/IfI didn't like policy... 1 would sit down with Chief and say hey, I don't like it... have me understand it .... Baker/ Lehman/ Nov/We, as a group, do not even have a list of those policies and procedures. Should we have such a list7 Should we turn that list over to a citizens ad hoc committee7 Should it be reviewed a single time... every five years? ..... Baker/... We have always had access to it ..... Nov/ Kubby/ This represents only a reasonable accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of September 17, 1996 WS091796 September 17, 1996 Council Work Session page 28 _Accreditation Process 96-106 S2 Arkins/To remind you, we talked about this... I have asked the Chief to get the paperwork. We would, again, like to reapply for law enforcement accreditation process which reviews everything ..... You have to pay a fee for it... They did lower the fee ..... $7,500 ..... That doesn't mean in order to become an accredited department, that there won't be changes .....That is something we would like to proceed with ..... Vanderhoeff In that process, what role would the council play in providing information or being part of the review? Arkins/The review process, accreditation process is done by an independent board ..... Play whatever role you want to play ...... Nov/This does give us an independent review ..... Arkins/And it is comprehensive ..... Baker/Tell me again, we are not accredited? Arkins/No. Very few departments are. It is not uncommon ..... The Law Enforcement Accrediting Association hires people to come in and review all of our policies and procedures ..... Baker/Any other .... Winklehake/Dubuque, Oelwein. I think there are three others. Atkins/There are three others. Thornbery/ Arkins/Flat fee. Norton/It doesn't strike me ....I am talking about policies and procedures that they might bless as suitable .... Arkins/You can certainly be in conflict with the thing .....You don't have to agree... You can choose not to be accredited. Thomberry/ Arkins/ This represents only a reasonable accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of September 17, 1996 WS091796 September 17, 1996 Council Work Session page 29 Norton/ Atkin.q It is a fairly new concept. When I was serving in Illinois... first police department in the state to do that. We took it ve~ seriously ..... I liked the review... I liked having an independent set of eyes take a look at our policies, procedures, physical facilities. I didn't agree with everything they did... lot of little things .... Vanderhoef/Opportunity for the council... to do some kinds of review on their own .... work with the accreditation process ..... We will have some of our own information... Important that this body.... we have been elected to do this job... Look at what is happening within the various departments.... What better time is it for us to do it now and I am talking about us. Thomberry/What gives us the more knowledge... I don't think I have got the expertise to do that. I think the accreditation people would have the expertise ..... Arkins/Some of it is instinctive... intuitive .... Kubby/ ....You become a jack of all trades with some expertise in different areas. Norton/Three prong thing... outside accreditation process ..... council itself take a hard look at policies and procedures that are in place... then you have the problem of setting up some kind of board to handle these complaints that we are talking about ...... concurrent things to be done. Thomberry/... accreditation process ..... same time we can still be doing a parallel investigation on what we think the policies ..... The also consider this review board. Vanderhoef/... looking at on an incident basis ad hoc. 1 would not be looking at a long term review board. Baker/ Nov/They would meet on a as needed basis ..... Atkins/If you have a permanent board, they would still meet on a as needed basis ..... When I think ofad hoc, it is a specific charge ..... Vanderhoef/That is exactly why I say I choose ad hoc. Norton/ This represents only a reasonable accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of September 17, 1996 WS091796 September 17, 1996 Council Work Session page 30 Kubby/We could use the term as needed ..... a couple of ways... getting involved in this specific instance in the shooting of Eric Shaw ..... Baker/Complaint basis as needed, review on a regular basis. Norton/...It has got to be standing. It has got to be available. Nov/I think ad boc means every time there is a complaint you convene a new committee.... That doesn't make sense. I think we need to say a committee that is permanent but meets as complaints are filed. Kubby/... Let's talk about what purpose we want them to serve. Norton/To deal with complaints... reviewing the overall standing policies is something I agree with Dee, that needs to be done by this council.... parallel with the accreditation agency ..... Baker/Analogy to Charter Review Commission might be appropriate... they report back tO US ..... Lehman/Would we have an opportunity to meet with the accreditation committee and explain to them our concerns up front? .... Atkins/If you choose to pursue that, I think that is a process that R. J. and I should sit down with you and say all right, let's make a list.... There is about 800 criteria that they review ..... Lehman/What kind of'time frame are you talking about? Atkins/At least eight months ....I 1/2 to 2 years to get it done .....May wish to initiate changes immediately .....We have the policies and basic criteria already exist. We need to start through the process.... Assign a full time employee to do nothing but that .... Thombe~xy/Is this CRB only for the Police Department or is it for other complaints as well? Atkins/This is a CRB, you should probably hang police in front of it. A police CRB. Thornberry/ Atkins/When I routinely get those complaints, they go fight to the department director .... This represents only a reasonable accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of September 17, 1996 WS091796 September 17, 1996 Council Work Session page 31 Thomberry/ Atkins/ Thornberry/It is only for the police. Vanderhoef/Possibility ofhaving a new employee .....Is there a way that we could do a complaint department that sorts these ..... Nov/We could hire an ombudsperson ..... Kubby/I think we need to focus on this .....1 don't want to merge these two things .... Nov/We have already said we need a person and an office to receive Police Department complaints ...... Kubby/ ....I don't think it has to be a paid person.... I would like us to focus our time today on a CRB issue for the Police Department ..... Nov/ ....I am somewhat concern that if we have a citizen committee that is accepting the complaint and filling out the form, you will not have consistency that should be there .....I am leading strongly towards a person who would do this on a consistent basis .....to each complainant. Baker/... I don't think it can be a volunteer position ..... Kubby/...haven't even talked about the roles .....We don't really get to the crux of the issue. Baker/Consistent application of review and policies, that is one question .....support staff for that board. Norton/CKB to handle citizen complaints to the police and possibly with a staff member. That is one thing that needs to be established I thought we agreed. The other question, who... is going to take a hard look at policies and procedures that are guiding our Police Department? Kubby/We have three choices up there: Accreditation committee and/or city council review and/or a CRB. Baker/Three parallel .... Thomberry/ This represents only a reasonable accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of September 17, 1996 WS091796 September 17, 1996 Council Work Session page 32 Norton/Accreditation, council review and a complaint board. Baker/We haven't backed away from some version of the CRB .... Thomberry/They have got to know the policies before they accept or reject a complaint. Baker/Is part of the CRB... to do a comprehensive review of policies?.. I say yes. Vanderhoef/I don't agree with that. Baker/ Vanderhoet71 still would like to see the council do the review in line with the accreditation.... The CRB ...board that comes into play on a complaint basis ..... Baker/About the outside accreditation, once that is done, how ot~en do you do it? Atkins/... five years we have to do a re-review. Vanderhoeff Make sense for the council to re-look at policies and procedures eyeD' five years at the same time the accreditation was taking place ..... employee who did sorting of the complaints ..... designated to receive the complaints ..... Baker/Role for a CRB ..... how the review is done.... that is a detail we can work out... Do you want the CRB to consider policy questions? Vanderhoef/Only when dealing with an incident. Norton/When they arise with a connection to an incident... Thomberry/ .... CItART: Accreditation (OK) City council review policies Citizen Review Board Ad hoc (as needed) Permanent CHANGE TAPE TO REEL 107 SIDE 1 This represents only a reasonable accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of September 17, 1996 WS091796 September 17, 1996 Council Work Session page 33 Council/(All talking). Kubby/ Thomberry/....I don't think they are all bad and all the policies need to be changed. Kubby/No one has said that here ..... Thomberry/I am talking to you, listen to me, damn it ......You really made me angry .... Baker/Can we get back to the role of the CRB? .....Policy review based on the complaint. Kubby/I disagree. I would rather have the CRB also look at policies and procedures on some regular basis but not frequently.... get the public more involved in the Police Department ..... Baker/Can I ask a question about the accreditation process. Is there a public interest component of this accreditation process? Winklehake/There is.... When I went through this is Illinois, there is a time for citizen input at the time they are doing the evaluation ..... For a department this size, you are dealing with about 865 different issues.... that is what they come in and evaluate. Whether or not you meet those standards ..... Then there is public input from the community, from everybody as to how you are meeting these standards ..... Baker/Is it possible for this council in that accreditation process, for the public input part of that process, for the council to dictate how the public input is to be received or in addition to what they would ordinarily do ..... Arkins/Change the would dictate to orchestrate ..... As we go through this accreditation process and you wish to conduct some kind of a public foram, meetings... tell us, we will set them up. Nov/I think this is an excellent idea, the accreditation process ......This will give us a certain amount of acceptance .... Lehman/We are responding to a very loud cry from the community... Norton/I will go along with the accreditation ..... If you want it, let's do it ..... The CRB we have been talking about... Do the accreditation, establish the CRB and give it two charges: take a hard look and an in-depth look at policies and procedures... in the Police Department. Then continuing, they would hear complaints ..... This represents only a reasonable accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of September 17, 1996 WS091796 September 17, 1996 Council Work Session page 34 Thomberry/..I don't want to see the policies revised on an incident by incident basis ..... If you have looked at a policy this year.... complaints... go back and revisit that policy ..... I think going through all of the policies every five year with the accreditation is a good idea. Kubby/We could also ask the group whose is going to look at complaints to look at specific policies ..... Norton/ .... Accreditation, and a CRB with review of policies and procedures ..... complaints....e';ery five years they go back. Baker/Complaint bas~s...CRB and a ad hoc policy review... one body. Norton/It is not ad hoc, it is standing. Kubby/ Norton/Have the council do the initial five year review ..... Vanderhoet7 ... much prefer this elected body ..... that we are the people who need to be doing the initial policy and procedure review ..... along with getting the review from the accreditation ..... Committee has only the charge to be aware of continuing or repeated complaints and we will look at it in five years ..... Thomberry/ ....say there are complaints one a week ..... Vanderhoef/.... We are going to do the policies and procedures part ..... Thomberry/The board, why couldn't they look at the policies? .....Board would recommend to the council .... Vanderhoef/ .... because they are sitting and hearing those 10-15 complaints... time to notify the council ..... Council/(All talking). Vanderhoef/...why I wanted a paid employee who would do the sorting of these things .... Nov/It could be a staff person who is here... they could spend 10 hours a week in an office ..... know that somebody is there to help them ..... This represents only a reasonable accurate transcription of the iowa City council meeting of September 17, 1996 WS091796 September 17, 1996 Council Work Session page 35 Kubby/Can we not make decisions today? ....Throwing it back to the public... As citizens, how do you think the review should be done ..... Offer some choices to tbe public ..... 1 don't know if we are going to stop right at 7:00.... Citizen review of the specific incident .... I would like us to begin to move towards that.... I can think of two possibilities for some kind of CRB to play in looking at the case of Eric Shaw being shot. One is somehow being involved in making recommendations... about disciplinary action ..... Other... is that a CRB could look in kind of a critiquing mode... in how we have handled this ..... this particular crisis ..... Vanderhoef/....not comfortable making a decision .....moving too fact could be real detrimental to what we want to accomplish ..... Maybe this is tbe time we should consider doing an ad hoc one time review of this incident.... expectation, charge to the committee ..... Thomberry/What do you want this one committee investigating? What do you want theJn to come back with? Kubby/I outlined some things. Thornberry/ .... I don't think we need a committee to say how'd we do.... We did what we could do with the facts we had which was none. I did not have any facts to give out ..... Kubby/...There were things we could talk about ..... explaining the different processes... time frame... There are some things that we could have done differently in communicating those things which we could communicate. Norton/Those are things we ought to talk about ..... self appraisal... CRB.... would have three different purposes.. review existing policies and procedures most relevant to the Shaw incident .... Then they would go on to look at broader policies .... Then they would set up themselves as a complaint agency to deal with some complaints ..... Thornberry/ Norton/It is an appointed CRB that does three things ..... Kubby/ Nov/If we set up a committee to review the Shaw case and the DCI report suggests · ..there is a criminal prosecution case, none of that information is going to be available until after the trial is held ..... This represents only a reasonable accurate transcription of the lows City council meeting of September 17, 1996 WS091796 September 17, 1996 Council Work Session page 36 Kubby/We can be prepared for a couple of different eventualities .... Baker/We have agreed... some version ofa CRB that will do at least two things: complaint basis, policy review of some version ..... I have a question... separate investigation about the Eric Shaw case. Until the DCI and county attorney pronounce what they have got .....we are prejudging the credibility of those agencies. Council/(All talking). Kubby/Having citizens involved in the decision about disciplinary action .....I am also interested in creating confidence in the process ..... Baker/ .....trying to prejudge the conclusion ..... Council/(All talking). Norton/ Baker/ Thomberry/ Baker/As far as determining the discipline of the officer involved, let's see what Pat White, R. J., and Steve do. Council/(All talking). Nov/... We still don't know ifthe particular police officer had followed all of those procedures exactly as he should have. Baker/... I don't share the depth of the distrust.... We have already started the process of policy review ..... 1 am not sure the point of establishing a separate body or this body to review the policies ..... Norton/Ifwe go ahead and take a look at those policies, that is fine. Vanderhoef/We can do it a whole last faster and timely... Kubby/So what role does the community play? This represents only a reasonable accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of September 17, 1996 WS091796 September 17, 1996 Council Work Session page 37 Baker/They have already played a beginning role ..... more public discussion next Tuesday ..... p.h.... I am assuming the public is going to be involved in shaping the final form of the CRB. Kubby/Having confidence in the process is really important .....Whole spectrum of the community ..... Baker/ KubbyZ Norton/They are expecting us to do something and we are trying to do it. Baker/Do you have suspicions about the DCI? Kubby/I have not talked about that .... the internal process of deciding disciplinary action.... I am talking about disciplinary action from the Chief.... I am suggesting that people want to feel confident in that process as well and is there a role that the community can play in that process in recommending something to the Chief.... Baker/One of the words....leadership. Our leadership is being ahead of public opinion, not following public opinion ..... I think R. J. and Steve are well aware that there are seven people and 60,000 other people in this community waiting to see how they handle that case. I don't have the misgivings about the disciplinarian process already in place for this Police Department ..... Nov/We as a council trust them and trust their process ..... However, in the past, we have not had a public information system ..... So there isn't a public awareness.... I am not sure that we need a special committee as much as we need better public relations about what has been happening ..... Baker/It is my understanding... you and the chief discipline officers. What if the council disagrees with that disciplinary action? Atkins/...Officer is entitled to appeal to the Civil Service Commission regardless of what we do .... Kubby! Can you change your mind? .... Arkins/Once we have issued the discipline by law.... that ends it... The appeal process is always there ..... Civil Service Commission makes the final call. This represents only a reasonable accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of September 17, 1996 WS091796 September 17, 1996 Council Work Session page 38 Nov/I know that the heating at the Civil Service Commission is public information, it is a p.h. Can we as a council receive a report of whatever recommendations for discipline were handed down by the Police Chief and have that report be part of our packet and therefore, part of public information? Arkins/I am going to have to defer to Linda on that one. Woito/Like on a weekly basis? Nov/No, on the Shaw case ..... Woito/I would think you would want someone outside of you involving the citizenry to look at it and then make a recommendation to you. Nov/I am talking about the fact that there will be an internal analysis of whatever happened ..... and that may result in discipline... internal review report.. Is it legal to send it to the city council ..... public information ..... Woito/You would have to get it as a matter of attorney client privilege and follow those kind of rules ..... Kubby/ .....That we understand how that determination was made and what the conclusion is and that that be made public record ..... Nov/ Woito/ Nov/How much is public information is the basic bottom line? ..... Woito/That is going to depend. The officer has certain procedure and substantive due process rights of an opportunity to appear and a hearing and to confront. Nov/There is no hearing... there is no appeal... Woito/U.S. Constitutional law requires that you or the police chief or R. J. or somebody give that officer an internal administrative due process ..... Nov/I am talking about the conclusion. Woito/I don't see any difficulty in us providing you summaries of disciplinary proceedings... This represents only a reasonable accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of September 17, 1996 WS091796 September 17, 1996 Council Work Session page39 Thomberry/ Nov/I am talking about this case. Woito/Are you talking about this particular case? Woito/Yes. I thought you were talking about all cases.... that information will be made public as soon as we can make it public ..... Nov/I am talking about the internal review. Woito/That can be made public, yes. Atklns/We have two police lieutenants are making an internal investigation for purpose of discipline .....Those two officers will prepare a report .....a recommendation on discipline .....They will have factually what occurred to the best of their knowledge. That discipline will be reviewed in accordance with the labor contract.... any other pertinent personnel rules and regulations. R. J. will then issue the discipline ..... There is a whole variety ofdiscipline. With conclusion of that discipline, does it become a matter of public record for you to be made aware of the discipline that he has issued? Yes or no? Woito/Yes. Kubby/ Arkins/The investigation itself I suspect can be made public if you wish R. J. and I to prepare a memo saying here is what we did, here is why we did it, and it is based on this set of circumstances. I have no trouble preparing that for you. Kubby/ Atkins/ Nov/Okay, good, thank you Baker/ ....Going through that internal process... make a decision... What is the problem with the council telling you now that before you make that final decision we want an executive session which you say here are the fats, here is what we want to do. Arkins! If the executive is legal, I have not trouble with it. Woito! 1 don't have any trouble with it .... This represents only a reasonable accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of September 17, 1996 WS091796 September 17, 1996 Council Work Session page 40 Kubby/ Arkins/ Baker/ Nov/Legally it has been an employee review process. Woito/Could be imminent or pending litigation. Atkins/I have not trouble sharing with you my thinking .... Kubby/Do you have a projected time frame for that internal process for disciplinary action? .... Winklehake/The time frame for an internal affairs investigation is 30 days from the officers involved are notified ..... If for some reason the people who are doing the investigation are not able to gather the information... they can ask for an additional time.... I do have an updated report.... At the present time it looks like we are pretty well on line for that and possibly even before hand. They do have a number of people to interview ..... Kubby! When would the 30 days... Winklehake/... last week where they gave them the notification ..... Kubby/That really surprises me .... Winklehake/This is where they are given paperwork saying this is going on. Kubby/Does that surprise anyone else that it was last week? Atkins/ ....The investigation began long before that. Kubby/ Bakeff Atkins/The 30 days is our self imposed limit. Nov/R. J. do you have any other questions or comments on this issue of citizen review. This represents only a reasonable accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of September 17, 1996 WS091796 September l?, 1996 Council Work Session page 41 Winklehake/I think your discussion has been interesting. I am not quite sure fi-om listening to it where you are going. Nov/We are going all over the place. Winklehake/The think there are some advantages to citizen review to be in place and I think there are some disadvantages.... One of the concerns... is the timeliness of getting the results out ..... I think you need to be aware of that timeline ..... Baker/ Winklehake/ ....majority of them are listening complaints. Baker/Do you have a record ofthose? Winklehake/The majority of those are handled at the supervisors' level ..... Kubby/ Winklehake/... those kinds of things are discussed between the supervisors ..... Nov/ Norton/I am trying to leave here... I want to see if these two options are the ones that we are debating ..... A-We are going to go for accreditation and two, we are going to establish a CRB with two charges: review police policies and procedures staffing with those most obviously relevant from the Shaw incident and do so every five years ..... And handle grievances against police and make periodic recommendations to the council about policy. B- Go for accreditation, council do the reviews of the policies and procedures and do so every five years. And three, set up the CRB to handle complaints and make periodic recommendations. Are those the two kinds of options? Thomberry/ Norton/ Nov/We also had a five year accreditation policy and that reviews policy. I am not sure you need three people reviewing policy evepj five years. Norton/I think the council or CRB has to take its look along with the accreditation ..... This represents only a reasonable accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of September 17, 1996 WS091796 September 17, 1996 Council Work Session page 42 Baker/It is possible for the council to set itself a deadline... within 90 days we are going to have a specific CRB organized, formed, determined.... within that 90 days we will have a series p.h.s to help finalize that .....Can we agree there is some deadline we need to impose on this.9 No~off Thornber~/I don't think it should take 90 days. Baker/ Nov/We need to allow sometime ..... Linda ..... We need to allow time to come up with a proposed ordinance, then hold a p.h., then set something in motion for a final decision. Arkins/Drafting an ordinance, they are long winded .... Kubby! Baker/ Thomberry/ CHART ADDITION: Review policies complaint basis Review Shaw incident Review broader policies Set up as complaint agency CHANGE TAPE TO REEL 96-107 SIDE 2 Baker/The p.h. has got to focus on not the Shaw incident.... But here is where we want to go with this.... What is the best mechanism from your point of view to resolve ..... Then we come back with a final version ..... Kubby/... make sure that the people have the kind of information that we have got so the feedback we get is the most viable possible .....Outline.. so people can understand the issues ..... Baker/ Woito/Are you going the ordinance route? This represents only a reasonable accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of September 17, 1996 WS091796 September 17, 1996 page 43 Council/(All talking). Atkin~ What I just wrote down was that within 90 days you wish that we have some son ofa dral~ CRB proposal as a matter of form, not an ordinance with all of the details, but form ..... Baker/... not in ordinance form. Arkins/In that form structure question within 90 days or less, you wish to have some hearings. So that means that you want something that can go public, an information sheet on this particular CRB, pros and cons or different types? Kubby/The couple of options that we felt comfortable with. Nov/I am not sure that we really concur on a single option. A~,kins/This is a public meeting discussion.... This is suppose to be a reflection of the general direction of the city council? Baker/Yes. Thomberry/I agree with that Arkins/So we need a structure and form, you want to have hearings on it. But you want to have an information sheet on CRB ..... Baker/ Norton/I think there is a point of too many options ..... Lehman/ Kubby/We talked today about two, basically. We honed it down to two things. Because of public input, we may come up with some different- Arkins/If you honed it down, I didn't hear it. Norton/Steve, we honed it down to whether the council was going to do the basic review of policy or whether the CRB was going to do it. We all agreed that the CRB is going to handle complaints... Arkins/CRB does complaints. CRB does policy review? Council Work Session This represents only a reasonable accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of September 17, 1996 WS091796 MICROFILMED BY INFORMATION TECHNOLOGIES R TAK September 17, 1996 Council Work Session page 43 Council/(All talking). Atidns/What I just wrote down was that within 90 days you wish that we have some sort of a draft CRB proposal as a matter of form, not an ordinance with all of the details, but form ..... Baker/... not in ordinance form. Atidns/In that form structure question within 90 days or less, you wish to have some heatings. So that means that you want something that can go public, an ird'ormation sheet on this particular CRB, pros and cons or different types? Kubby/The couple of options that we felt comfortable with. Nov/I am not sure that we really concur on a single option. Arkins/This is a public meeting discussion.... This is suppose to be a reflection of the general direction of the city council? Baker/Yes. Thornberry/I agree with that. Atidns/So we need a structure and form, you want to have hearings on it. But you want to have an information sheet on CRB ..... Baker/ Norton/I think there is a point of too many options ..... Lehman/ Kubby/We talked today about two, basically We honed it down to two things. Because of public input, we may come up with some different- Midns/If you honed it down, I didn't hear it. Norton/Steve, we honed it down to whether the council was going to do the basic review of policy or whether the CRB was going to do it. We all agreed that the CPd3 is going to handle complaints .... Atkins/CRB does complaints. CRB does policy review? This represents only a reasonable accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of September 17, 1996 WS091796 September 17, 1996 Council Work Session page 44 Norton/Maybe or the council. We don't know. Arkins/Or council. Norton/And we all agreed on accreditation. It doesn't seem to me anymore complex than a pencil. Nov/ ....how often the policy should be or not be reviewed and by whom is the question that was never really answered. Baker/ Nov/Let Steve come back with a memo, 1 think we should move on. Atkins/Let me do this. I am going to go back and I am going to write a memo to you on what I think you just told me and I will get it back to you and then we will schedule sometime at a work session sooner than later. I will do my best to get it written tomorrow .....draft... Then you will pick it apart and clean up what you want to clean up. Baker/ ....we are still unanimous and committed to some form of CRB .... Arkins/You want something to react to. I think I have got the drift. Major point of contention is city council review of policies or CRB. Kubby/And public information. Arkins/...I.You want it down into something that can be boiled down and easily handed out to friends and neighbors saying here is what we are talking about in a couple of pages. Nov/Yes, a drat~ ot'what we are talking about thank you. Atkins/Thank you. Nov/Okay, now we need to go into e.s. CHART: Within 9 days proposals/options Public sessions/hearings for input Information sheet on CRB Review (policies) when and by whom This represents only a reasonable accurate transcription of the 1owa City council meeting of September 17, 1996 WS091796 September 17, 1996 Adjourned: 7:30 PM Council Work Session page 45 This represents only a reasonable accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of September 17, 1996 WS091796