Loading...
HomeMy WebLinkAbout1996-11-13 TranscriptionNovember 13, 1996 Council Work Session page l November 13, 1996 Council Work Session 4:30 PM Council: Lehman, Kubby, Norton, Thornberry, Vanderhoef Absent: Baker, Nov. Staf~ Atkins, Helling, Woito, Karr, Trueblood, Moran, Wonick, Kriz, Smith. P/R Commission: Deb Liddell, Mathew Pacha, Bruce Maurer, Judith Klink, Rex Pruess, Ken Fearing, Ross Wilburn. Tapes: 96-131, Side 2; 96-134, Side 1. Oakland Cemetery Discussion 96-131 S2 Lehman/Them are about three things... address here .....First thing we have to entertain is the idea... if the city should stay in the cemetery business .....And ifwe decide that is something we should continue to do, then we have to address the nert issue .... should Oakland Cemetery be expanded. There is another issue that I would like to see us talk about, if we decide that Oakland Cemetery should be expanded in some fashion, that we perhaps should put a limit on that expansion and say this is what we expect to do for a period of time.... I think P/R needs to know what is going to happen ....I think we should try to give an expectation of what we are going to do .... Norton/...Is the council going to make its firm decision right here, now? Lehinan/I think we are going to give an indication to P/R. We cannot make a firm decision. [Tape Problem] Norton/1 think we ought to stay in the business, Ernie. Let's do it. Lehman/Terry, let's all introduce ourselves. [Self introductions: council, P/R Commission, city staff and audience] Lehman/No... should we be in the cemetery business? .... Norton/I say yes .... Pacha/I would agree with that .... I think the city owes it to people to provide an alternative to private burials ..... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of November 13, 1996. WSl11396 November 13, 1996 Council Work Session page 2 Wilburn/I think it is important to maintain some type of municipal option. I don't know what form that would take ..... Vanderhoeff I am in favor of keeping some sort of cemetery services in the city and I would go along with Ross... explore something with other cities or with the county.... outside of city limits maybe .... Liddell/I am very ambivalent about it... wanted to have some discussion about it... I would like to explore some non-traditional options ..... Wilburn/I am glad you are willing to have this work session with us.... I think it will help us.... be more firm on options... direction of council.... possibilities ..... Lehman/... This council cannot bind future councils ..... I think... we owe it to the Commission to give an idea of how we feel.... We can give an indication... What I am hearing is most people think we probably should be in some fashion in the cemetery business. That we should offer plots for burial. Klinkd As a member of the P/R Commission I understood that this was part of our responsibility because of historical reasons.... cemetery... park. As far as the decision.... I myself am not in favor of staying in the cemetery business if it in anyway impinges upon the park. Fearing/Most of the people who have contacted me and talked to me are against the expansion. Norton/What about cemeteries, are they into cemeteries? Fearing/No, they didn't state that .....They didn't want to expand into Hickory Hill Park. Wilburn/I have people e-mail me... split on whether or not they thought the city should be in the cemetery business .... Norton/ Kubby/ ....I'm kind of interested.... It is part of community building... history of our community... feeling that 1 get... connection to the past, present and future... emotional place ..... everyone is equal.... It is a gathering of our past .... To be in the cemetery business is a very expensive business ..... to expand out services no matter where our location is ..... Should we just do indigent plots... cremation This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of November 13, 1996, WSl11396 November 13, 1996 Council Work Session p~e3 plots.... In general I am in favor of it .....but I think we need to articulate ....What are the downsides of doing it .... Pacha/I think the things that we have looked at .... Kubby/Does it meet that 45%? Pacha/That particular part of the department doesn't .... Norton/It brings in.... the receipts are 16% of the expenditures ..... Maurer/I am in favor ofus continuing the cemetery business as long as possible. The cost is definitely much less out of the person's pocket... We owe it to all of the people ..... Give everyone the opportuni .ty to afford a burial plot ..... It is a lot less expensive to purchase a lot through the city .... Lehman/Seems like the consensus really is the city probably should stay in the cemetery business in some fashion. That seems to be the consensus .... Next thing then is should Oakland Cemetery be expanded? If so, how so? And should expansion be limited? Norton/I think that it should be expanded very slightly .....I want to talk about just the tab in Area B ..... Wonick/North of Rose Hill. Norton/You could get roughiy 100 in there ..... That doesn't involve much expense or eating away of Hickory Hill at all and you would get... 7 to 8 years.... See that mild expansion ...... by that time get our wits together and buy some property somewhere... or use present places... Put something out on the west side.... Stop the further encroachment on Hickory Hill .... Get the heirs to sign off.... Put very slight expansion out there that would accommodate us for 7-8 years.... I don't want to see much dirt moved. Liddell/...maximizing what space there is... closing off the lane which would preclude future development. Norton/ ....wouldn't really go beyond the tree line .... Kubby/ This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of November 13, 1996. WSl11396 November 13, 1996 Council Work Session page 4 Norton/That little tab .... When you go out there it looks like you can get some in there without going very far north of the present bounda~ of where the trees are... not moving much dirt. Vanderhoeff Norton/I wouldn't go east of the present fence line. Liddell/The wood line. Norton/(Refers to map).... that little tab. This part fight in here.... You could get maybe 100-118 in there.... without going very far north. Wonick/The 118 would include where the road was ..... Norton/ ....demand may reduce some what .... Klink/Really you are suggesting transition out of active cemetery business .....maximize plots available at Oakland and closing the possibility of ever expanding ..... Norton/ ..... look at wastewater plant ..... city property ..... out by 965... grab some property out there... Hickory Hill West.... cemetery land.... preserve some of that green space along 965 ..... Pacha/... in that equation is buildings and equipment .... Norton/There is no doubt about operating expenses .... Pacha/ Norton/If you could co-locate it with the water plant or waste treatment plant because you have equipment around there and people .... Liddell/To me the criteria for this... h~.s to be a long term solution. I like your idea .....1 don't see a feasible long term solution by expanding Oakland. Thomberry/I think perhaps ..... land that was at one time perhaps deeded to the cemetery... If that was indeed to be cemetery land, then it should be cemetery land .... suppose to be... was deeded for cemetery land... And that is a question for the Legal Department ..... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of November 13, 1996, WS111396 November 13, 1996 Council Work Session page 5 Klinld ....I thought the situation was city council could decide... Thomberry/It depends on how the land was deeded .... Klinld That is not what I understand .... Norton/ Thomberry/I do agree that we cannot expand that cemetery forever ..... Norton/ Thomberry/ Norton/That is 40 acres. Thomberry/I just want to make that that is... now parkland and never should be cemetery land ..... Norton/ .... a resolution... part of the deed.... assuming that the specific heirs didn't raise hell about it. Woito/My reading of the law.... Unless a member of the family... comes forward to enforce those restrictions, the council can use the land either for cemetery or parkland or any other public use. I don't know if we have made any attempt to contact that family ..... Trueblood/We haven't made any direct attempts to. Of course we had a p.h. about it ..... We have not heard from anybody from that family. Thomberry/I think it behooves us to attempt to locate them ..... Kubby/I don't have a problem with trying to find them... get their permission... pass a resolution. Thomberry/I want the record clear .... Kubby/ This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of November 13, 1996. WSl11396 November 13, 1996 Council Work Session page6 Thomberry/There are legal hoops you jump through.... I don't want to just deed over that land to P/R just because it is part of a park... find somebody .... Norton/ Thomberry/If we go west... doing it with Coralville ..... Norton/County says they don't have any problem ..... Coralville ..... I say get a firm resolution.... obtain written agreement.... from heirs.... Ought to do that. Kubby/First thing... policy question .... Thomberry/ Kubby/ Norton/The deed refers to the resolution. Liddell/ Thomberry/We can make a decision.... still think we ought to find out from the heirs if they really do want that as a cemetery. Woito/I think I hear from the majority ofthe council that you want Terry and I to explore trying to find the heirs to clarif3, that. Lehman/I tlfink there may be a compromise.... history is very important in this community ...... One the proposals... MMS... use about two acres ofparkland but would give us 30-40 years of burial plots. That would be using Area.... with using the dirt moved offof Area B ..... That would add about 1,000 plots ..... Probably 30-40 years.....this is as far as it goes, no more.... taken the pressure off the cemetery for plenty of time to plan where else we might want to go... mlink/Aren't we putting offa decision though? Lehman/...that this is the end of expansion in Oakland Cemetery ..... This is about as non- intrusive as you can do... provides for a lot of folks in this community .....We don't have a policy obviously right now .... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of November 13, 1996. WSl11396 November 13, 1996 Council Work Session page 7 Norton/I just hate to see that amount of dirt moving and tree topping ..... Why not bite the bullet now and do it in seven years rather than in 40 years... considerably less intrusion into the park ..... Kubby/The sooner the new direction is started, the more likely it is going to happen .... The sooner the new direction is planned for and moved towards, the more likely it is going to happen the way we envision it happening. So, I like Dee's plan better than what Ernie is suggesting about all orb and part of A. Lehman/ .... There is a lot of people who have felt that because land has been dedicated for a cemetery, that it would be expanded... I think we owe those folks something.... If we could get by using a couple of acres.... extend the life ofthe cemetery by 30 years with a policy that this is the end of it ...... Norton/A lot of people are as equally interested in the park and preserving the sanctity of the park ..... I am trying to accommodate some of both .... Lehman/This B and part of A is as least intrusive as some of the options. Norton/And I have a less intrusive .... Klink/I definitely favor Dee's approach. To change that slope is a tremendous change... We have a beautiful park and we want to preserve it for future generations.... have to draw the line. Wilburn/ We haven't had much discussion about.... how that expansion might occur .... mausoleum....while still trying to maximize the number orspaces .... Vanderhoef/...Above ground mausoleum ..... Wilbum/What about below ground? Vanderhoeff Presently the policy is four to a plot and that possibly could be changed ..... Could it be more? Wonick/ ....depends on the size of the cremation container .... Vanderhoeff This is something I would like to explore... Section C... where I would like to see some above ground space .... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of November 13, 1996. WS111396 November 13, 1996 Council Work Session page 8 Wilburn/I have seen some pictures of beautiful looking mausoleums .....might offer some compromises above ground .... Norton/...increase efficiencies of space.... get more mileage of what you have there .... Kubby/... encourage .....full body burials are more expensive .... Liddell/More intrusive. Fearing/I am kind of against the long range plans for two reasons.... many more years to make changes .... Area B is where a lot of activity and Memorial Day services .... very dear to a lot of people .... Vanderhoeff Fearing/B, that is that deep valley ....I think it is B... It is also where the maintenance building is .... Norton/No, we are not talking there. We are talking way back the other end. We are not up near the maintenance buildings ..... Fearing/I am talking where the new trees are ..... Norton/We are not talking about that area at all.... We are back to the other far end. Fearing/All right, 1 am sorry. I am turned around. Notion/No, we are not going to bother that part for sure. Vanderhoef/Something that I would.... If we to find out that we needed to put some cemetery in there... legality... I would like to see some more land purchased to replace what we have taken out of Hickory Hill... adjacent land.... connect to the park .... Kubby/Is that a legal assumption that is correct? That if the family objects that we can't have that land be parkland? Woito/Under the law, if you view this as a true dedication .... the language is relatively loose because the language for cemetery use is not found in the deed itself. It is only found in the title of the contract to purchase and it is only found on one whereas in the resolution which indicated at the time, at least in 1913, that there This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of November 13, 1996. WS 111396 November 13, 1996 Council Work Session page 9 was an intent, both on the part of the family and the city council, that that 40 acres plus the eight acres was to be used for cemetery purposes. I asked Terry about when that land was started, the 40 acres piece ..... was used as a park starting in the late 60's ..... My first argument was going to be... presumably if they felt strongly about the cemetery purpose, they would have come forward and objected at that time.... the absence of any objections over the many many years that it has been Hickory Hill, that you are not going to meet a test of the intent but it is out there. But it doesn't necessarily mean that without a law suit that you are prohibited from using it, the 40 acres, as park. Kubby/ Woito/But if you want to preserve your intent at this point, then I would think that you would want to make it clear by resolution that you dedicate that 40 acres to either, whatever portion you want, as park and remainder as cemetery so that someone 5- 10 years from now at least knows what your intent is today. Thomberry/ Woito/If no one comes forward, we may not have a resolution. Thornberry/We can come to an understanding given we can't find anybody .....If some of the family comes forward and says .... Woito/You would at least be in a position of recognizing the rights of a prior contract and acknowledging and respecting those prior rights. Thomberry. Kubby/Seems like there have been two suggestions put out for discussions: Dee's... just the tab of B and staying in the business and looking elsewhere... Other one is Ernie is suggesting doing all orb and part of A to give us 30-40 years ..... Pacha/I like Ernie's expanded option ..... Lehman/We are only talking about two acres.... Dedicate the other 38 acres. Norton/ I would like to do something to be sure we are all talking the same area. Maybe the guys from MMS.... (Refers to map) .... Chris Stephan/(Refers to map). This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of November 13, 1996. WS111396 November 13, 1996 Council Work Session page 10 Norton/How many feet is this? Chris Stephan/What option be is suggesting is that we got kind of a hump here. We are going to flatten that out... move the old tree line... excess material... could be placed down in here .... Norton/ Stephan/...try and fill in some of this area here .... Norton/l want to just make sure that people understand that the intrusion that Ernie is talking about... is substantially into the existing park ..... Kubby/ Vanderhoef/Jim, how much of the B area was what you were mowing? .... Wonick/ .....called cemetery pasture, that 40 acres ..... Kubby/ Pacha/In our work sessions... I have heard about a long term solution .... 30 years I think is a long term solution to me.... gives us time to look at something... make a stand that that is where it ends .... Thomberry/. for the people that are buried there, that is forever. Kubby/ Lehman/Some of us have indicated that we want to try to contact the family... should be the next step .... CHANGE TAPE TO REEL 96-134 SIDE 1 Klink/I definitely don't favor altering that slope.... violating the Sensitive Areas Ordinance by doing it .... Wilbum/I like Dee's suggestion here ..... I like the idea of trying to make it clear for future councils.... I would like to see it occur in a way that maximizes use to that space .... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of November 13, 1996. WS111396 November 13, 1996 Council Work Session page 11 Liddell/... I think that encroaching on Hickory Hill is really going to change the nature of Oakland .... We have heard from folks.... who don't want to expand... cemetery has a great deal of integrity as it is .... Thomberry/Try to find those folks that deeded that property... once that has been done .... fill in the current cemetery and then get out of the cemetery business.... I don't think the city should be in the cemetery business.... But we still maintain .... Pacha/It is a given that we are going to maintain it .... Thomberry/... I don't think the city should be in the cemetery business. Lehman/Dean, you tend to agree with Dee Norton's proposal that we infill, get seven years out of it .... do not expand it at all? Thornberry/I don't want to expand. Lehman/Dee Vanderhoef, do you feel the same way? Do you feel the same way? I think we have given you a pretty good indication, four out of seven (Kubby, Norton, Thornberry, Vanderhoef). Norton/He said either get out or expand .... Lehman/First thing we did say tonight is that we feel that we should be in the cemetery business ..... Thornberry/1 disagree. I think we could help subsidize the burial of someone who could not afford a private plot ..... Lehman/Tonight, the first thing we did agree to is that we probably should be in the cemetery business .... I think we have done what we came to do. Kubby/So we need to direct staff to look for the family and then go ahead with the resolutions, too, a~er that, to say our intent. Lehman/We need to put this to bed once and for all .... Norton/With respect to my plan, I sure would like to have staff really carefully lay out exactly what we can squeeze out of the present thing with the absolute minimal expansion .... I think we need at least seven years .... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of November 13, 1996. WSl11396 November 13, 1996 Council Work Session page 12 Kubby/As well as looking at underground and on top of ground .... Wilburn/ Might include if some ordinance or something needs to be modified .... Liddell/ Woito/I think Dick Dolezal has some concerns .... concerned about the record that I tracked down... 40 acres... purchased from cemetery funds.... those funds were generated from proceeds from selling cemetery lots. Dick Dolezal/... What the park people are doing is taking essential corporate bonds and convening it to public use and they have to use a referendum bond to purchase parkland.... purchasing parkland with cemetery funds. Woito/The opinion that I have on the bonds differs from Dick Dolezal's opinion and the city is not constrained by the source of the fund to purchase the land. Dolezal/I have a suggestion... (refers to map) ..... Norton/ ....getting everything we can out of what we have got .... Lehman/Well, we have done it. Liddell/I would like to thank you for coming. [All talking] Trueblood/I am not sure what we are suppose to do. I have heard a number of things. I don't know if we are suppose to approach Steve with plans to expand ..... Lehman/Within the cemetery, maximize the (can't hear) we have, is what I hear, with no- Kubby/But it does not include filling in Section A. We did not agree if Section A is part ofthe current cemetery, we did not agree to filling that in. Trueblood/That is right, 1 did not hear that. lfyou want to maximize within the fence line of the cemetery, the largest area you have is Section A. Kubby/We are talking about maximizing useable space that is currently configured with that little addition of the knob orB. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of November 13, 1996. WS 111396 November 13, 1996 Council Work Session page 13 Treeblood/Understanding that if we do that we block off any possibility of expanding to the east. Norton/Right. Woito/Right, I think that is this group's intention. Treeblood/Okay, I just wanted to- Norton/We do need to see a detailed layout and a map that shows us the fence lines. I am missing all the fence lines wherever they are, at least on the east. Treeblood/The tab in Area B you are referring to, most of that was leO. for a roadway to the east if the cemetery was ever to expand that way. Your direction is for us to begin selling lots in that area, then we can forget about discussing whether or not to ever expand in Hickory Hill. Norton/Wouldn't you need some access in there? .... Treeblood/....grass pathway... funeral access .... Liddell/ Even if we did hear from the fam/ly that it was their intention to challenge the decision not to expand, it wouldn't require us to expand Kubby/Only if there was a law suit. Woito/Right. Do I understand you want Jim Wonick to bring back a diagram on tkis slight expansion? Norton/I would like to make sure what we are doing because in order to get seven years, I don't see how we can do it less than seven.... In order to squeak out the number of spaces that will hold us for a reasonable time, like at least seven years, we might need to mess around a little bit up there in that B area. Kubby/30 more feet one way oranother. Woito/Do you all want a diagram? Lehman/I think we should have a more detailed map. Kubby/ ....we may want to see that before we absolutely confirm ..... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of November 13, 1996. WS111396 November 13, 1996 Council Work Session page 14 Vanderhoe~lwant some coms in there, too. Andwhm I would liketo look at a liffie bitls cost ofthe mausoleum ..... Woito/With the city building the mausoleum? Vanderhoe/7 ....or there may be some other section... I would like to know what this is costing ..... Trueblood/What we have been trying to do.... planning as low of cost as possible... Some of the things we are talking about... possibility of hiring a specialized cemetery consultant to help us draw up a plan as to how we can maximize the use of the cemetery ..... I just don't think we have the expertise that we need on staff ..... There are some creative things being done... scatter area.... If we are talking about maximizing the space within the cemetery proper, I really think we need some professional guidance. Kubby/And maybe there is a possibility of using Area A that is currently cemetery space.... harder for people to do visitation ..... Norton/ .... if they could maximize that comer ..... I understand what you are saying, Terry, you got a good point. Maybe we need more advice than we got. Kubby/I wouldn't mind going into A if it were not lots of earth moving ....If we can do it without the disturbance ..... Trueblood/Do you think this is a direction you might be interested in is to talk to... get a cost estimate on what it would cost to hire .... Lehman/That is your call. Your budget. Vanderhoef/Something else .....A ballpark figure for opening a new cemetery... $20,000 per acre .... Trueblood/One figure... generally speaking, a rule of thumb is $20,000 an acre to develop a cemetery ..... only a fool would really put that on paper. Lehman/I guess we are going to wait until we hear back from you as far as what we can do although the direction seems to be cleat'. This represents only a reasonably accurate trauscription of the Iowa City council meeting of November 13, 1996. WSI 11396 November 13, 1996 Council Work Session page 15 Trueblood/The direction right now is we try to find the family, we don't plan on expanding into Hickory Hill Park. Lehman/We maximize- Thank you. Adjourned: 5:40 PM This represeuts only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of November 13, 1996. WS111596