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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1999-01-29 TranscriptionJanuary 29, 1999 Council Work Session Page 1 January 29, 1999 Council Work Session 7:35 PM Council: Lehman, Champion, Kubby, Norton, O'Donnell, Thornberry, Vanderhoef. Staff: Atkins, Helling, Dilkes, Karr, Holecek, Winklehake. Tapes: 99-18, all; 99-19, Side 1. PCRB 99-18 S1 Lehman/We had said, I think, some time ago that we would like to get together after the first of the year and discuss the PCRB and comment as far as we, as a council, felt things were working .... General comments and discussion. Before we get into it ourselves, I would like to have Eleanor express some concerns that staff may have with the board and after that, Steve .... Comments. And then we will discuss it. Dilkes/Well, the memo that I gave you January 27 .... Very briefly outlines what I believe to be ..... the issues that are up for discussion. These as a said in the memo are not necessarily generated from me or generated from Steve or generated from PCRB. Its just based on what I understand from all those sources these are the issues. The first, and what I'll ask you is go through and you all stop me when .... Lehman/I suggested as we go through these if we have some concurrence let's indicate that as we go so that we don't have to go back and go through every single one. Go ahead. Dilkes/The first one is the time for the filling of the complaint. As you know the current ordinance provides over sixty days statute of limitations meaning the complaint must be filled within sixty days of the alleged misconduct. If it's not it's untimely and it's subject to summary dismissal. The board has suggested that that time period be extended to ninety days. I think that's a reasonable length of time. As I told you a sixty day statue of limitations is very short. Lehman/Everybody agree with that? Vanderhoef/I have a question before we do that, I'm sorry. The longer the time period is after the incident I question the accuracy of the reporting and it is a concern for me just in getting it down while there is still people around so you can interview them or get a hold of them. Remembering the incident. Dilkes/Sure that's why you'd have- I mean that is one of the principle reasons for statute of limitations. If you get too far behind the event things get stale and disappear and you can't properly investigate, but ninety days is not too long of a period. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 29, 1999 WS012999 January 29, 1999 Council Work Session Page 2 Kubby/Although we are seeing now through the Human Rights Commission minutes that staff is working, and they've got a hundred-eighty days. If they get to them right away it's a lot different then if they wait and so this seems like it's workable because it's half the amount of time .... at the beginning of the investigation. Kubby/There's certainly no implication that they have to take ninety days. Atkins/If someone were to file a report on the ninety first day is there a process for that or summarily dismissing it? Dilkes/No, that's what I mean. There are two instances in which you can summarily dismiss under the ordinance. One being an untimely complaint which would be a complaint filed then. If we changed the ordinance of the ninety first day or after or if it's not against a sworn police officer. Summarily dismissing meaning no investigation etc. Now that doesn't mean that in some of my early discussions with talk about the boards proceedings that was important to me that those complaints go to R.J. regardless because he needs to know that they exist. Kubby/Someone on that ninety-first day could go to the Police Department- Dilkes/Absolutely. Kubby/It's another issue of whether we want to merge those two .... So they do have some recourse. Champion/We certainly have to have some sort of deadline. Lehman/Okay, we got to go. Dilkes/The second item on the memo is time for completion of the police chiefs report to the board and the board's report to the city council. As you know those timelines are currently thirty days I believe is just incredibly short for any kind of investigation. Any kind of analysis and any kind of conclusion. You got Steve's memo on that issue. For a number of reasons I believe that that timeline should be made to similar to what the Human Rights staff ordinance is on that, is that investigations be completed in a timely manner. Kubby/I feel like that's too open ended. Norton/It seems like it's too open-ended to me. I'd rather have- Thornberry/How can you have a deadline with any extenuating circumstances .... The thing is I think ...thoroughness of an investigation can not be cornpromised by time restraints. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 29, 1999 WS012999 January 29, 1999 Council Work Session Page 3 Champion/But you still need to have some kind of deadline. Thornberry/I think in a timely manner says that time is under consideration here but I don't think it should the overriding factor in getting a accurate investigation. Norton / I certainly think everyone wants an accurate investigation. I would just leave it as forty-five or sixty days with some provision for extenuating circumstances that might make that have to be extended. I would certainly want some sort of guidelines. I don't see why that's inappropriate. Make it forty-five or sixty so there's an appropriate provision for an extension or appeal. Thornberry/I don't think that this is going to be any less of an investigation than the Human Rights commission does. Norton/I still don't like timely in either case. I like a specified provision for extension. Thornberry/That's nice if the University can't do it either, there's a lot of places, a lot of things that can't be done in a certain number of days ..... Then the overriding thing is going to have to be calling for an extension for some reason, and then you put it to the board and their going to say hey, we don't like taking this long as a further letter to the Police Department early on. I just think the accurateness of the investigation is an overriding factor. Overrides a number of days. Norton/If I thought time were related to accuracy I would buy that, but it isn't necessarily true. Ask a student about a paper. Letunan/I think that first of all a time frame that we could reasonably expect an investigation to completed in is something we should probably have. I don't think we have a problem that asking for an extension, but I do think that there should be a time, and I don't think we've ever had a situation where we were not, the Police Department was not, granted extra time to investigate an investigation. I don't think they'd ask for that unless they have to have it. But I don't think that a definite time gives you a time frame like hey I got to get this done, in a certain amount of time, which is different- Vanderhoef/Is one of the problems though just the mechanics of asking for the extension on a timeline because of meeting schedules both with PCRB and the meeting schedule for council? ..... Lehman/I would like to ask R.J ..... Obviously the thirty day timeframe does not appear to be something that is reasonable. Overall and that something longer than that is reasonable? As you've heard in the discussion there is a concern about using the word timely alone, that there should be some sort of definite time frame. Knowing This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 29, 1999 WS012999 January 29, 1999 Council Work Session Page 4 full well that you can get an extension, what would you be comfortable with generally? Winklehake/We've gone to the process of reviewing our internal affairs (can't hear) and in there we had a 30 day deadline. We've changed that .... to sixty days ..... Lehman/Do you feel that in most cases sixty days is an appropriate amount of time? Winklehake/In most cases I think it would be. We've found that to be reasonable in the investigations that we have, even the ones that go through the citizen review board. Lehman/So I think we need to be reasonable but I also think we need to have some expectations. If you believe that this is normally something that can occur within sixty days, knowing that you can get an extension if it has to be longer than sixty days, I don't have a problem with that. Thornberry/How long does it take for the Human Right Commission? They don't have a time limit and if for example a business man wanted to get another loan you would have to put on that loan that were under investigation for human fights violation on that loan application. That's not fair than either. Lehman/No but there's a distinct difference. In this case the people that the complaints been made against are employees of the City of Iowa City over which we do have control. In the case of an employer or an apartment renter or what ever that person is not an employee of the city, their not here every day, it's probably much more difficult to do that sort of investigation. To work with someone who works for us. O'Donnell/We've just heard that the chief thinks it's fair. Lehman/Steve has a comment so I want to hear it. Atkins/I'd respect R. J. I don't agree with that. I think the timeliness is a far more critical issue. I think in a timely matter is a very important. The reason I do is the consequence of the action would be very, very dramatic. I mean we're talking about the potential for disciplining an employee, the potential for legal implications. I feel very strongly that the thoroughness of the report far outweighs any time limits issue. Lehman/I would agree with that but I think you're assuming that we would be less thorough rather than ask for an extension and I don't agree with that. Atkins/And then secondly I'd like to be able to think that we could take some of these complaints out of order. We have a tradition of trying to follow one right after This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 29, 1999 WS012999 January 29, 1999 Council Work Session Page 5 another. I've done three of these myself. And I'm not a trained investigator. And there's an obligation under the ordinance that I have to do these things. And I had three complaints with virtually no information, that is the individual scratched something on one of our forms and Eleanor ..... I took it through as formal as a process as a could but the chief and officers reading reports and I'm not convinced that I could turn them around in sixty days given my other responsibilities. I'd assume that that applies for somebody else then. Kubby/I'm having a little confusion or a little uncomfortableness. I guess I want to ask PCRB how they feel about something. Lehman/Fine. Kubby/Because the meeting before the meeting and I don't want us to get locked into our thinking. I want us to figure out a way to have this meeting but still be open to their input. Because if we're going to ask their input now it's like we're having the meeting so... Lehman/ Dilkes/It had been my thought that you would go through these issues, get staff input, have some discussion among yourself but it seems to me... joint meeting... Doesn't make a lot of sense to come to a conclusion... you need their input. Lehman/ Norton/Sentiment right now for 60. Lehman/I think that is appropriate .... At this point we seem to have some concurrence that 30 days is not enough and let's wait until we visit with them as far as setting the actual time. Kubby/...pros and cons of things .... Lehman/I think we are doing that. O'Donnell/ Dilkes/I have discussions with the PCRB about that. Let me add one more comment on the timeliness issue .... I have to say from the perspective of my office, we have an obligation under the ordinance to review the reports that come from R.J. We have to have sufficient time to do that .... For example, there will be request for discovery in other proceedings for the documents that are generated in the PCRB. And so it is important that we review those .... It takes considerable amount of This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 29, 1999 WS012999 January 29, 1999 Council Work Session Page 6 time for us to do that and that is a staffing issue and it will draw us away from other things .... That is an issue out there .... Looking at staffing .... Lehman/ .... 60 days. Legal feels what is okay? Timeliness? Dilkes/I think timeliness is good as long as this time period was long enough, then I probably wouldn't have any problem with that. I think 60 days is a little short because it has to come to us. 90 days perhaps I would be more comfortable with. Vanderhoef/ Norton/If you say timely, there are going to be come time when there is ajudgement of what is timely. O'Donnell/Then let's put 90. Lehman/We are not going to do that until we meet with the board. O'Donnell/Let' s make a note of that. Kubby/Ask R. J .... how many days did it take you to complete your time? .... We can base this number of some real- Vanderhoef/ Thornberry/Does Steve review that? Lehman/Steve does, R.J. does, Legal Department does .... quick note from you folks based on historic history of the complaint. How many have we had to have extensions on, etc .... Dilkes/You want some indication from us as to if you go with a definite time period, what our recommendation would be. Lehman/Definite time period with the obvious availability of an extension if they need it. Thornberry/...Right now they have had a 30 day time limit, is that correct? Lehman/That is my understanding. Thornberry/What other things have been put to the side to do this to try to get it within that 30 period that probably shouldn't have?...Who else have been put off because of this. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 29, 1999 WS012999 January 29, 1999 Council Work Session Page 7 Lehman/I think we are going to do something as far as extending the time. Thornberry/ .... you got to take in these other considerations also .... What, during that period of time, should have been done but wasn't because they had to do this? Norton/Given the word timely, you could always defer this, in principle, couldn't you? Kubby/ Norton/ ....I think you had better have something with an extension. Lehman/ Kubby/ Lehman/...R.J., Steve and Eleanor tell us what time they need. They do know what else they have to do. Champion/ Thornberry/ Dilkes/...I know in my office the need to get the PCRB's reports done by a certain deadline has pushed other work aside. That is just a reality of it .... staffing issue. The next issue is whether the complainant should be invited to appear and present testimony when the complaint is being reviewed for the purpose of summary dismissal .... There are two incidences under the ordinance in which the PCRB can summarily dismiss the complaint, basically dismiss a complaint without any investigation. And that is when the complaint is untimely filed after the deadline, 60 or if you change that 90 days. And if it is not against a sworn police officer. We have had some discussion .... In connection with the SOPs. My opinion... I don't think it is appropriate to invite the complainant to appear at a public heating to discuss this issue continues to be the same... Seems to me that there are some constructive ways to address the issue of wanting the complainant to be able to express themselves in person such as an interview by a subcommittee of the PCRB. Ways to do that other than inviting them to a public meeting at an early stage of the proceeding when there is no indication as to whether this is a rounded or unfounded accusation .... Lehman/Is the key word here public? Dilkes/Pretty much, yeah. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 29, 1999 WS012999 January 29, 1999 Council Work Session Page 8 Lehman/...You feel there could be some pitfalls in having this be a public meeting. I would think that may be true from both the complainant viewpoint and also from your viewpoint .... Dilkes/...The complainant can choose to make anything public at anytime... Kubby/I had a real strong objection to have it only be in writing... I don't know that I am attached to how that happens .... I will be anxious to hear PCRB's response if they had some other ideas. Vanderhoef/If you had a subcommittee, you are saying they could go behind closed doors to have that conversation and it wouldn't have to be public? Dilkes/That is right. Norton/My question .... seems to be a matter of either the person is a sworn officer or not... And either you met the deadlines or not .... Are there only two reasons? Lehman/This is only for summary dismissal we are talking about. Norton/...what would be the argument? Kubby/How you count the days? Lehman/ Norton/We just extended 90 days for the filing. Kubby/We are not establishing anything- Norton/We have agreed. Lehman/We did pretty much agree with that, Karen. We may change that after we discuss that but that number of pretty much agreed to by the people sitting here. Dilkes/On that issue, that is the 90 is the period that they request in their annual report. On that issue you do know that is what they have asked for. Norton/ Lehman/...if we extend the time by 30 more days. Kubby/Is that part of the ordinance or part of the process now. That people can argue about those two points. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 29, 1999 WS012999 January 29, 1999 Council Work Session Page 9 Dilkes/The ordinance isn't specific about it. That is why it came up in connection with the SOPs. Champion/How can you argue about it? Kubby/ .... but maybe about the time issue. Norton/ Lehman/That is something we will discuss with the board. Norton/ Dilkes/As clear cut as the timeliness issue can appear, sometimes there is reams of case law on whether something is or isn't timely ..... Lehman/That is one we are obviously going to have to discuss. Dilkes/The next issue is the issue of identification of officers. I attached my letter to Doug Russell, the PCRB's legal counsel. I can't, I don't think, more frankly express the two concerns I have on this issue. I guess my advice to you... I think it is universally understood that an accusation is not an inference of guilt or culpability or of anything. And I think that is a fundamental principle of fair process. And if you can resolve that concern of PCRB which I have raised legitimately, then I would be comfortable with you proceeding with the identification method that we have discussed. Of that the board has requested. I think that is a fundamental issue that needs to be addressed. Maybe we need to put it in an ordinance that that is a rule and that we are not focusing on allegations. We are focusing on conclusions after appropriate due process has been afforded and their investigation has been done. But any inference in a report, any kind of a statement that an allegation against someone is evidence of the truth of that allegation I believe to be terribly problematic. Kubby/What do you do... if there ends up being 20 similar allegation against an individual and because of the way our system is set up that the investigation... level of decision that has to be done, there is something going on .... That if isolated people end up having the same kind of reaction .... What do we do with that kind of circumstance? Dilkes/I think in each of those instances you do an investigation. Perhaps a second allegation warrants a different level of investigation .... Slippery slope when you say the number of allegations has any kind of.... Value. You do your investigation... It is not probative that there have been two allegations of This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 29, 1999 WS012999 January 29, 1999 Council Work Session Page 10 profanity against an officer. What you have to do is look at the circumstances of each allegation .... And determine what the facts were in that particular situation. If in investigating a situation there's a determination made that... there was a use of profanity by the officer then that's an appropriate determination because you're basing it on the facts. Perhaps there was a third witness, there was another witness that corroborated the complainant's story. But the mere fact that there is an allegation... particularly given the nature of police work...these are adversarial situations. People are often times are not going to be happy with what the situation they find themselves in when they're dealing with a police officer. I thimk that's a terrifically slippery slope and I don't think you should go down it. Kubby/Although I get confused because you're suggesting a possibility of a different level of an investigation if there are multiple allegations and so there is some connection although maybe different because it's internal. Dilkes/I think that the PCRB has available to it a variety of...They can look at just at R.J.'s report. For instance if the PCRB thought... that in a matter before it that R.J. was in their view inappropriately giving the testimony of the police office more weight than the testimony of the complainant. Let's say there was an issue of whether the profanity issues, do their own investigation. They can talk to witnesses themselves. Maybe there were witnesses that weren't interviewed... There should be a focus on the investigation and proper conclusions from the investigation and not on how many allegations we have against a particular police officer. Norton/I'm going to raise two questions. It doesn't seem to me that the identifications of officers is exactly the same as the question you make about how you deal with allegations .... the latter is one that is a matter of skill on the part of the people involved in avoiding doing that. In either direction with respect to the officer or the complainant... you have some complainants turn up more than once .... There are allegations there coming from the other side that have to be assessed and they may come sequentially. So that doesn't seem to me necessarily resolve that one and I am concerned because if the board had chosen a different level of review, for example to do their own investigation which they have not done yet... or if they were to interview officers... or to interview a complainant... in all those cases the identity is pretty much known and certainly the identity is known to the people in the police department doing the internal investigation who could in principle be biased. So I'm not concerned. I think the identification thing is not the same as how you deal with allegations and accusations. Dilkes/The reason they're tied together is because those are the two concerns I have about identifying the officers. One is identifying them to the public. That's the confidentiality issue. The second is identifying them to the PCRB. That's how the information is used in the investigative process issues. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 29, 1999 WS012999 January 29, 1999 Council Work Session Page 11 Norton/I'm talking the second case. Lehman/In the current process, how soon is he- If... the identity of the officer is not known... Dilkes/To the PCRB? Lehman/Yes. And then at some point in the investigation, the PCRB decides that they're going to investigate, at some point they're going to have to know who that officer is... Is that not true? Dilkes/You can imagine a system where the request would go through R.J. through the officer. So not necessarily. Lehman/Okay. Kubby/There's a name clearing hearing. Dilkes/The notices of name clearing currently come through R.J. Kubby/...refuse to participate. Lehman/Notice for name clearing and the name hadn't been released and the officer didn't wish to have it, then you would not have a clearing because nobody has a name to clear. Dilkes/That's right. Lehman/Is that right? Dilkes/Um-huh. (All talking) Thornberry/You'd have to have a number clearing. Norton/I guess I'm not sure how this identification question which doesn't bother me because I don't see how it can be avoided in most cases... I don't see how that still deals with the allegations, dealing with accusations. O'Donnell/I don't think the name of the officer is at all warranted. Norton/At some point. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 29, 1999 WS012999 January 29, 1999 Council Work Session Page 12 O'Donnell/Con~dentiality thing there. And I'm wondering how you can set as a group of people and see a report and say, well we've got this guy again .... I just don't think you'd be fair. Each one is individual when you look at the report not the person. I don't see how you could avoid saying well this is the third one for this guy and look at it in a different manner. Vanderhoef/The probability for certain shifts and certain locations of patrolling could possibly lead to the idea that one officer could end up with a considerably more allegations just because of the ... If they're working the bars as they close and working with drunks, it's real conceivable that an officer who works those shifts could end up with a number of complaints from someone... Norton/Is that information to them? Vanderhoef/...I agree with Eleanor that the number is not something that should be going back to the PCRB. Each one should be done on its own basis and dismissed. O'Donnell/It has to be to be fair. Kubby/I agree with latter part that each one is to be looked at individually but one of the whole points I believe that we decided to do a PCRB is for some accountability and we wanted them to track trends. Dilkes/...I think we can solve the tracking issue under both scenarios and this is something staff has discussed. Kubby/...a consistent number that's not related to badge number. Dilkes/But it seems you've got one system where R.J. would provide periodic updates... identified by officer number of complaints and that kind of thing... He would not provide that identifying officer information until they had completed their deliberations on a particular complaint .... they would not have the identifying information of the officer as they were deliberating on the complaint. They would have a history by officer... identified by number after the conclusion. Norton/Okay. O'Dormell/It brings fairness into it. Norton/I had proposed that earlier. I think that's fine. I still don't know what would happen in other forms of investigation. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 29, 1999 WS012999 January 29, 1999 Council Work Session Page 13 Vanderhoef/It removes bias. Lehman/...I have a question for R.J. and Steve. If we have a complaint filed against an officer, obviously R.J. you receive that complaint. You know who it is and the complainant. Steve you also find out about every complaint filed against an officer. Atkins/Every. Lehman/Every complaint? Atkins/I can't say 100% of the time. R.J .... Lehman/Does he get 100%- if somebody files a complaint? Atkins/Yes... Lehman/...it is a management tool and the responsibility of the chief of police and his boss who is city manager to act on officers who have had excessive numbers of complaints. That is a management employment tool. I think it's the job of PCRB to point out which officers have had complaints sustained and it's their job based on those sustained complaints to evaluate that department and say number 53, you had seven complaints for the same thing. We are going to get our act straightened out or you are going to be gone. But that is a management job and I believe that's the job of the chief and the job of Steve. I do not believe that's the job of PCRB. O'Donnell/I agree. Kubby/Could there be a way that the other kind of information that we're getting on a regular basis is the use of force- information of that one because it's all public record, has badge numbers associated with it. How will the PCRB be able to merge those two pieces of information for their end of the year... looking at the whole thing. Looking at policy suggestions they made or training suggestions and looking at sustained complaints and they have this kind of random yet consistent officer identification number and then they have a use of force report .... not to place blame or judgement, it's to say here are some trends we need those to be looked into. Thornberry/I don't think the PCRB reviews... drawn weapons or whatever... They review a complaint filed against the police department. That's their only reason for existing. They probably shouldn't review each... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 29, 1999 WS012999 January 29, 1999 Council Work Session Page 14 Dilkes/I have some concern about the treatment of use of force reports in that respect. There is no determination made in those use of force reports as to the appropriateness of the use of force. Kubby/Right. I'm not suggesting there is, but... trends do not mean this is bad. It means some questions might come up and you ask the questions. Dilkes/But you are talking about trends by... specific police officer ....I think you are identifying some culpability. O'Donnell/We can have one person which we have that's registered approximately 107 complaints and that could really throw a dark flag on any officer. Kubby/Right. That's why it's a question, not an assumption that anything is bad. Lehman/I don't think we're going to resolve this here. We're going to talk about it with the PCRB, but... there's a basic question as to whether or not we feel that it is the purview of the PCRB to have the number of complaints against a particular officer in making a determination about that officer's ability to serve. I don't believe that the number of complaints about any particular officer is valid for anybody except the chief and the... Norton/All they would be doing is calling additional attention to the fact because obviously that will be cleared of the chief and presumably be cleared with the city manager. The PCRB might simply reinforce that this is happening... repeatedly at least. But otherwise that would be all they could say .... What about other cases? For example, they're reviewing the report and they come to a place where they need an interview with the complainant... or they need an interview with the officer. Are they not to be able to interview him or they interview him behind a curtain or what... Lehman/What is the process? Obviously if they have to interview the officer they're going to know who it is. Dilkes/Not necessarily. The request for the interview can come through R.J. and the officer can decline. O'Donnell/Absolutely. They can choose not to talk with the PCRB. Norton/What about if they chose to do a separate investigation? O'Donnell/The PCRB? Norton/The PCRB. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 29, 1999 WS012999 January 29, 1999 Council Work Session Page 15 Dilkes/That' s one possible scenario. I don't think just because they have the fight to have an interview automatically means that they have to know the identity of the officer. Kubby/But we are still talking about... after the complaint is sustained or not sustained that an identification so at the end of the year they can review everything to note if there is someone who has had a lot of sustained complaints. Letm~an/I agree with that, Karen. Kubby/They won't know who it is, but they'll know... Lehman/But that information is already to the people who have it to use- The police chief and city manager, those are management tools that they have. Norton/They're reinforcing that by mentioning it again. Vanderhoef/And they can take their action as the management. Lehman/This is something we... Norton/To do anything with it is up to the chief is up to the chief and city manager. I agree with that. Lehman/We need to get the PCRB's take on this. Obviously we have some disagreement here. Let's wait until we visit with them and see what their reasons are for wanting that. O'Donnell/I don't think there's been much disagreement, Ernie. I think it's pretty... Lehman/We haven't heard their side. I'd like to hear why they want it. Kubby/We need to stay open. Dilkes/When I looked at the issues in the memo, obviously some depending on what conclusions you all reach, there may be ordinance changes necessary, procedural rules changes necessary, bylaw changes necessary. So I'm not focusing on that at all. We'll deal with that after you come to a conclusion on the philosophical. Number 5. These are just additional concerns which are identified by the board in it's annual report. I have had no discussion with their legal council or them about these two issues, but I put them on here because I though perhaps since they had identified them they might want to talk about them. The first is they appear to This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 29, 1999 WS012999 January 29, 1999 Council Work Session Page 16 have some concern about the existence of the two methods for a person to file a complaint about the police department either on ICPD form or a PCRB form. The statement in the report was that the PCRB will be better able to determine the pattern of allegations of police misconduct and to more accurately fulfill its duty to report to the city council if a procedure is implemented to give the PCRB access to the total number of complaints filed whether on a ICPD or PCRB complaint form. Just initially, the question this raises for me is ...focusing on allegations of misconduct here which I think is a improper focus... And two, there's an issue as to whether it should be the complainant who decides whether he or she wants to avail himself of the PCRB process. Lehman/That choice is obvious to the person when they make the complaint, whether or not they want this to go to the PCRB or not. Is this not correct? ...They can file a complaint that will go through the PCRB? Dilkes/...The two forms are available at the police department. Letm~an/So the complainant has the option of filing the complaint either way. Dilkes/Right. And a lot of complainants don't file any complaint as I understand it. They come in. They complain orally. There's a discussion. Lehman/But ifthere's a complaint written, the person who signed the complaint has the option of filing either one. Norton/But if they say what's the basis, what's the difference, what do you start saying... Lehman/I don't know what we tell them... Dilkes/R.J ....logistically how that works. Winklehake/If an individual wants to file a complaint and they come into the police department, the supervisor there will deal with them. In the course of that, if they say I want to have a written report or written complaint, they say there's two different ways you can do it. Here' s the internal report that goes through the police department. We begin the investigation. There's a report here that you can file and it goes to the Citizen Review Board. A report is done by the police department and then they review it. So they have their choice of which one they want to have. Norton/But they know there'll be an internal investigation in either case by the police department. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 29, 1999 WS012999 January 29, 1999 Council Work Session Page 17 Winklehake/I can't tell you that everybody that comes in and walks out of there is fully aware of that. They are aware there are two different ways they can do that. Now whether they realize that both of them are investigated by the internal affairs part of the police department, I don't know that. Kubby/...I'm reading this differently than our discussion ...I'm not interpreting this that the PCRB wants everyone to go through them, but they just want to have information about the people who choose to go through the police department. Norton/I understand that but it seems to me to be pretty important. Dilkes/Is that the question? Thornberry/It's not that important. Vanderhoef/...This is the same kind of information that we were talking on the previous, that management will have those numbers and be able to compile them without them ever going to PCRB. So I see those two things connected, that absolutely the management can... Kubby/I think the point of the PCRB is that one of their functions is accountability. Some kind of a little bit removed accountability from the internal workings to point things out to the managers so they can deal with that. And so by not allowing these things, I believe there' s not a lot of accountability under Iowa law and the way that we've chosen to write our ordinance that we can have from the PCRB. This is like one big site for individual complaints. This is a more systematic form of accountability that PCRB has to look at these things and make comments to the management. They're the ones who act on that if they so choose. If we take that away there' s not much original purpose left on that part of the reason why the PCRB is in existence. Champion/I wasn't on the city council when the PCRB was established but from a citizen' s point of view at that time I thought their purpose was to determine whether allegations are correct or not. But also to determine whether the police in Iowa City are acting in the way we as citizens want them to act. How do they ever do that if they don't get all of the citizen complaints? Thornberry/This is a review. This is a police citizen review board. It is a review not necessarily an investigative body. We went over that when we set this thing up. They don't necessarily have to investigate every complaint. That's fine. They don't have to. They're reviewing... Champion/Maybe I used the wrong word, but... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 29, 1999 WS012999 January 29, 1999 Council Work Session Page 18 Thornberry/They review the police report, the police internal investigation. They review that. Norton/They don't review the ones that go only to him. Thornberry/And after looking at that, they determine whether they want to do... their own investigation or not. They don't have to investigation every allegation. Champion/But you're talking about very specific instances and I think they have a broader scope than that. Thornberry/I don't and I don't want them to. I want the intemal department to be run as an internal department of the city. All they are is a review of that department. Norton/Dean, They've got to get enough information. Champion/You just said it. They are review of the department. Thornberry/They review the allegations, they don't even review the allegations. They review the reports made from that- CHANGE TAPE TO REEL 99-18 SIDE 2 Thornberry/And they can make it an investigation if they want to on any report that they see on an allegation to them .... Norton/Seems to me what is told to a person who comes into the department... the two options. They need to know in either case, when a complaint is filed... it is going to be investigated by the department. Is that correct? The only question is whether that report is also going to be sent to PCRB. What do they got to lose by saying PCRB form? Lehman/There may be situations where they don't care to have their name out there .... Norton/I don't understand if I were an innocent citizen who had come in .... How would I know which way to go? .... Lehman/Where else can you file complaints? Dilkes/ ....library... police department or the Clerk. Karr/They have to be filed with the Clerk ultimately ....I will go through the steps if you have questions. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 29, 1999 WS012999 January 29, 1999 Council Work Session Page 19 Lehman/Would you explain the differences between the two processes to me? Karr/I would explain the two processes. Norton/I think they ought to have a card that is standard ....Otherwise you get different stories .... Lehman/ Kubby/ ....The distinction is whether the PCRB's purview is to look at trends of individual officers or not. Is that what the difference of opinion is about what the function of the PCRB in that light is? .... Lehman/I think the philosophy is going to be whether or not the PCRB is a board to review misconduct of a police department or whether part of their purview is going to be more of a managerial philosophical sort of thing. Norton/I don't think so ....The question of their exacting trends seems to me kind of a secondary thing .... It is available to the chief and the city manager. The board could reinforce that by simply saying we noticed this pattern ....I don't think they have primary responsibility for that .... Kubby/ Norton/ Dilkes/...You need to understand where we are at. The ordinance... provides a couple of functions to the PCRB. The first... was a review of the police department's investigation of particular complaints and a determination as to whether R. J. 's findings are reasonable, not arbitrary, capricious, etc. And they can do...various types of investigations or different levels of review .... Can choose to conduct their own investigation. It is a deferential standard of review of the police department' s report. Secondly, the have oversight over police policy and I will read you the provision... broader in scope than you are thinking. "The board shall have oversight authority to review police practices, procedures and written policies as those practices and procedures relate to the police department's performance as a whole and shall report same to the city council including any recommended changes." That is where they get .... Authority to hold public forums .... Finally, they make reports to the city council, including an annual report which- "1-Maintain a central registry of complaint. 2-Collect data and do an annual report to city council which shall be public .... The board's annual report may This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 29, 1999 WS012999 January 29, 1999 Council Work Session Page 20 also include recommended changes in police practices, policies or procedures."... I just want to make sure you understand what the ordinance provides for when you are planning your discussions about what you want it to do. Norton/They don't say anything about individual patterns. Champion/ Kubby/ ....If there seems to be a certain kind of complaint ....How do they make those recommendations? .... Norton/...I guess you are not supposed to single out who. Seems to me that is the chiefs job .... Lehman/That is going to be a philosophical discussion that we are going to have with the board .... I think we have to be interested in what they perceive their job to be and what they need to do .... I think we have out perceptions of what they should do and they have perceptions... find those are very very similar .... Atkins/When you discuss the issue .... Monitoring system .... Concerning tracking complaints. You need to be aware that Dale and I also get complaints .... We routinely handle it, settle it and move on ....The kind of complaints that we get... people will call in and name an officer .....The 48 hour parking ....We will get calls and an officer will respond .... Individual conduct and the circumstance .... We don't record those. So there is no way that PCRB would know... There is a very .... What Dale and I try to do is resolve the circumstances and move on .... But the issues that we overwhelmingly get are the circumstances .... We do get our share of complaints. We don't record them. Lehman/ Dilkes/I think Steve's comments illustrate the inappropriateness of focusing on the complaints, the number of complaints, the number of allegations. I don't think that is the proper focus. Finally, the last thing was deferential standard of review. The annual reports- The PCRB just stated that they would continue to monitor this situation and noting they have some concerns about the deferential standard of review .... I haven't spent any time on it. Lehman/Thank you. Norton/What about name clearing hearings? .... The issue of who can appear at the name clearing? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 29, 1999 WS012999 January 29, 1999 Council Work Session Page 21 Dilkes/The ordinance has been changed .... You can discuss it. Lehman/Steve, you had some concerns or comments. Atkins/ ....Eleanor, would you comment for us on discovery? What, of all of this information, is potentially discoverable with respect- We are adequately... PCRB is an agent of the city government, an extension of the city council. Our research shows they are covered with our liability insurance .... I am curious as to what might or might not be discoverable .... Diminish our position and... place us in some jeopardy? Kubby/Will you define discoverable before you begin? Dilkes/There is a process in litigation .... Of what is called discovery where each side has the opportunity to discover, uncover or get the facts, documentation, testimony, etc. within the control of the other party. A deposition, a request for documents .... Interrogatories .... Questions to the other parties... type of discovery .... The standard for discovery is essentially it doesn't have to necessarily be relevant in and of itself but you can discovery it if it will lead to the- If it is generally calculated to lead to the discovery of relevant evidence .... Thornberry/Does the information that the PCRB would discover on one side... would that information necessarily have to be given to all parties? Dilkes/The inforn~ation that is generated in the course of PCRB investigation, you would very likely be discoverable in a similar criminal investigation depending on the judge's ruling .... Lehman/I don't know quite what you are asking, Steve .... Atkins/I want us all to be aware that when we conduct these investigations, undertake this process .... Very clearly there is the potential that anything that gets written down on a piece of paper... that that information could become available .... If officers begin to be reluctant to cooperate and provide you information... anything I say ultimately may be used against me or the city .... Lehman/How is that different than just a regular internal investigation? Atkins/I don't know if it is. I am just saying discovery is an important part of the business of govenunent .... Legal exposure .... Lehman/Seems to me... PCRB or... plain internal investigation would have that same concern. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 29, 1999 WS012999 January 29, 1999 Council Work Session Page 22 Atkins/Absolutely. Norton/ Atkins/The PCRB also has an extraordinary power to conduct an investigation through the use of the public's money on its own which is separate from and we are not a part of that decision making. Norton/ Arkins/ Thornberry/There is just more exposure. Norton/ Vanderhoef/ Atkins/Our analysis is that the liability does not appear to be dramatically different .... Lehman/ Norton/ Dilkes/I think that- My main concern on that point is.. that there be appropriate time to conduct the investigation and to get things done accurately. Lehman/That is probably a very good point .... It needs to be terribly accurate. Kubby/The one piece of information .... To get a sense of how much time these investigations are actually taking so we can get a sense of the appropriate time .... Between now and when we meet with the PCRB. Dilkes/We will do that. Kubby/That is the only thing that we asked for. Dilkes/ Lehman/ [Council Break] This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 29, 1999 WS012999 January 29, 1999 Council Work Session Page 23 (All talking). Lehman/Steve. Atkins/I have just one item .... general concern .... I mean this respectfully .... There is an extraordinary level of scrutiny that we have with the PCRB at your direction, by ordinance, for our police officers. And I only ask us, ask you, to approach these matters with the reasonable caution that is appears that is what you are doing. We have a very delicate labor relations balance... I think we enjoy good relations with our police union. The police union is not the department but they represent the interest of the employees .... We want to make sure that anything we do is done fairly, thoroughly, accurately. The union presents the employees and recognizes if an employee's conduct is not satisfactory, we, as management, will take whatever reasonable initiatives we need to take to deal with that. There is sort of a second player in this and that is our media relations .... How it is transmitted publicly .... We sort of living in an environment .... We are a small town with a small department, that our officers are very high profile and I feel very strongly and I urge caution in making sure how we deal with those issues because it could have a long term and dramatic effect on our employer relations ....I ask, on behalf of our employees, that we are cautious about how we proceed. Kubby/I want to stress that these particular employees also have a lot more power over citizens than any other group of employees and that is why citizens have asked for more accountability about these particular employees. Atkins/An employee who runs the Water Plant could do far more damage to everybody in this room by one mess up than a police officer might do .... We have employees that have very high levels of responsibility .... Kubby/It doesn't mean I want to lessen the accountability to any other employees .... Atkins/We have employees that go on private property... water services .... That do things that we just don't think about .... Fairness, thoroughness and accuracy of things we do are really very very critical ..... Lehman/...Other thing .... Newspapers .... terribly poor journalism .... Arkins/ Lehman/It is so easy .... Read something in the paper... All the media got the same information that those three papers got and yet you saw the difference in headlines. We have to blame somebody .... Blame the paper?...PCRB? .... We are many times somewhat influenced by the media .... I also think that the PCRB This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 29, 1999 WS012999 January 29, 1999 Council Work Session Page 24 probably is just as sensitive as we are .... I think our discussion with those folks .... Going to be one of philosophy ..... they could help us have a better police department .... We have to recognize they are an extension of the council... responsible to the people of Iowa City... It is our job to see to it that we are all on the same sheet of music ....Fair, effective... That we accomplish what we set out to accomplish. Norton/We certainly started... with the assumption that there would be some fine tuning ....I think it is important... actual procedural guidance in that document .... Some words in there need to be fixed, corrected or clarified ....I think we need to be as specific as we can .... And not just a philosophical sense but in actually the domain of activity that we are expecting them to focus on .... Also nitty gritty guidance. Lehman/I think the nitty gritty guidance comes from our philosophic position. Kubby/When we meet with the PCRB, how will the meeting be run? .... I want to give the power to the PCRB to say these are the topics we want to focus on to make sure we get them done. Dilkes/You have to remember that I have not had a meeting with them either. There may be other issues that they want to bring to the table .... Kubby/...power to control the agenda .... Lehman/From my perspective... start that meeting the same way we started this meeting. We heard the concerns of the staff, I would like to hear the concerns of the PCRB and then we address those concerns as we have talked with the staff today. Kubby/ Lehman/ Norton/We have got a lot from them in terms of annual report .... Kubby/There may be some points of view they may want us to read about and think about .... Lehman/ O'Donnell/They have had an opportunity to meet with the City Attorney on two different occasions to express their concerns before they meet with us and they chose not to .... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 29, 1999 WS012999 January 29, 1999 Council Work Session Page 25 Lehman/I don't understand why we didn't have that meeting. Thornberry/...I want to ask them about a letter they sent to the police department, too .... Lehman/If we are going to ask why they chose not to meet with Eleanor.. they should be prepared to answer that .... legitimate question .... I think we should know why. Norton/I just think if they meet with Eleanor before they meet with us, develop an outline we can follow .... O'Donnell/Makes a lot of sense. Lehman/I don't kd~ow we have a board or commission... wouldn't meet with the city attorney... There is some explanation due on why we didn't meet. Kubby/ Dilkes/I think that meeting probably would have been most valuable before this meeting. I certainly will meet with any of them if they want to. I don't feel it would be as important now as it might ...have been ..... Lehman/Are they other things... things that we are going to want to discuss with the PCRB? Concerns that we have that we would like brought up .... Thornberry/There are some questions .... Without a whole lot of thought, just give me an explanation... I think I will wait and give my questions to them at that time. Lehman/ .... If they are questions that require some kind of work to come up with answers- Thornberry/There won't be any work. O'Donnell/ .... put the police on the same playing field that we do the complainants. Give them the same opportunity .... Can't have a name because it is too easy... I want them on the same playing field and I want the police to have the same opportunity to be vindicated .... I think they are under very close scrutiny .... Kubby/That is part of the philosophical discussion. Lehman/We got to remember .... I don't recall how many complaints have been filed against the police department...significant number .... We have an awfully good police department... doing good job .... I think the PCRB has really reinforced that .... The results of this board at this point .... Really did reinforce the fact that we have got a pretty dam good police department and most of the complaints that This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 29, 1999 WS012999 January 29, 1999 Council Work Session Page 26 are filed against them have not been sustained .... In the total scheme of things, things aren't working that bad... Out of that whole SOPs .... We had three we didn't agree with. I say we pretty much agree .....Overall we agree that the job is being done .... Norton/We have to remember that by definition, they are looking at complaints .... Focusing on complaints. Thornberry/I think they are suppose to be looking at reports ..... (All talking). Norton/Gives a negative bias of what they are doing because that is the side that they are looking at. Kubby/There are a few issues here that I think will either tend to bring to the surface or retract potential problems .... Certain ways, certain powers that we give the PCRB... can either let those things come to the surface .... How much power we give them and what we allow them to do can make a difference to the outcome of what their conclusions are. Champion/ .... I think the PCRB has done a great job .... This group of people was brought together .... Human error .... You cannot eliminate that. Thornberry/It is too bad that the PCRB doesn't get all of the letters that we get singing praises of police officers .... (All talking). Thornberry/It is too bad that they don't get both sides .... They hear the complaints .... They don't hear all of the good things that they have done .... O'Donnell/...You have to allow them to be police .... If you are walking around on eggshells and afraid to do anything .... Kubby/If you know you are under scrutiny .... Helpful .... (All talking). Lehman/ Kubby/I was saying that if you need some help in doing your job better, that you are going to get support from our system in doing that .... training in order to help you to do your job better .... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 29, 1999 WS012999 January 29, 1999 Council Work Session Page 27 Lehman/Did you ever consider how the public perception .... of the police department would be... If the PCRB's annual report to the council was a glowing report because of the very few complaints that have been sustained ..... They really have been an advocate of the police department .... Vanderhoef/...When you talk about the positive... One of the things that has concerned me about the annual report is the listing of the allegations that came out .... number of times... 50 some different allegations. That is focusing, to me, on the negative that were not sustained. So why are we even keeping track of that stuff that isn't sustained. (All talking). Vanderhoef/Ernie's scenario of a positive report is good ..... O'Donnell/...It lists them all but only shows the ones that were sustained .... Vanderhoef/ Norton/Technically changes... T.V.s installed that are going to raise new issues and the board has recommended that we consider that .... Lehman/Are these legal issues, though .... Policy issues for the police department or are these legal issues? .... video-camera .... Dilkes/Basically a policy administration issue. There are legal implications I would think. (All talking). Atkins/However certain citizens will not look forward to it. Lehman/We have to support the police in doing their job. (All talking). Thornberry/...officers .... always in the public eye. Kubby/Review the history of all of this... Our focus is on the individual circumstances and relieving that circumstance. I guess I disagree with that .... I want to go back and review the history .... Looking at the transcripts .... Of when council was talking about this. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Io~va City council meeting of January 29, 1999 WS012999 January 29, 1999 Council Work Session Page 28 Atkins/What I said, Karen, was individual conduct for the circumstances. That was my point. Kubby/ Dilkes/I think I was making those comments in the context of wanting to get off the focus of what the allegations have been as opposed to what the conclusions from a proper investigation have been ..... Kubby/Thank you. Lehman/The PCRB was set up... very expensive thing for us to get done .... I think we were sailing uncharted waters .... I think at the end of the first year it is our job to evaluate .... It is time to look back .... Fine tune it. Kubby/ ....Have Sam .... From Nebraska .... Sam Walker .... Might be good to- Atkins/I think Linda may have consulted this guy. Kubby/On the front end .... Send him a copy of our final determination .... Might be interesting .... Consult and say how do other communities... These are the category of issues that we are struggling with, how is that dealt with in other places. O'Donnell/I don't think that applies .... (All talking). O'Donnell/I have to think that the SOPs .... based on City of Iowa City .... Letunan/We are uniquely Iowa City .... Thornberry/I didn't think it was going to be as expensive as it has been .... Vanderhoef/It never hurts us to get information... see if it does or doesn't fit with out city. So I have no problem with getting additional information .... Thornberry/I just assume not have this be an adversarial roll between the police department and the PCRB .... CHANGE TAPE TO REEL 99-19 SIDE 1 This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 29, 1999 WS012999 January 29, 1999 Council Work Session Page 29 Norton/There is bound to be some of that .... They are somewhat outside rather than inside. I think that is the reassurance that the public wanted. That I is not all in- house .... Thornberry/... I don't want a... complete adversarial role. Besides, we are going to have the police department forever and I am not sure if we need a PCRB forever. Champion/The PCRB... are not going out and looking for complaints .... Thornberry/They also have investigated a lot of reports from the police department. Norton/As we have asked them to do. Thornberry/It is up to them to decide which ones they want to investigate. Lehman/It suppose to be based on the merits of the report .... Kubby/ Thornberry/How many complaints have gone through and investigation has been done by the police department that they have not reviewed? How many? Dilkes/Anytime a- If it is filed on a PCRB complaint form- (All talking). O'Donnell/I think it is important- It sounds like there is an adversarial role and there shouldn't be. The PCRB is an extension of the city council and we are all going to work together. I would like to see better cooperation with the City Attorney's staff... I didn't see any reasons to decline the meeting .... Norton/Matter of timing .... Eleanor has our views firmly in mind before she talks with them .... Helpful .... Kubby/ Lehman/So many times what seems to be adversarial positions kind of melt when you talk to each other ..... We may be really heading towards the same end... mutually agreeable... I don't see us having huge differences .... Is there further discussion? .... I think we need to know their concerns .... (All talking). O'Donnell/I would like to talk about this 7:30 AM meeting... bad time of day. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 29, 1999 WS012999 January 29, 1999 Council Work Session Page 30 Lehman/How many like the 7:30 meeting? (All talking). Lehman/It is a 4-3. (All talking). Adjoumed: 9:20 PM This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 29, 1999 WS012999