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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1999-05-03 TranscriptionMay 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 1 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session 7:00 PM Council: Lehman, Champion, Kubby, Norton, O'Donnell, Thornberry, Vanderhoef. Staff: Atkins, Dilkes, Franklin, Fowler, Winstead, Helling, Karr, Davidson, Schoon, RipIcy Tapes: 99-50, all; and 99-51, S1 and part S2. A complete transcription is available in the City Clerk's office. Review Zoning Items 99-50 S1 a. Public hearing on an ordinance amending City Code 14-6, "Zoning Chapter," concerning definitions and paring requirements for carryout, delivery, and drive- through restaurants. (PROBLEM WITH TAPE 99-50 BEGINNING OF S1) Franklin/...Happy Joes, which had a peak parking demand of five, but the others were three and two. Thornberry/I'm just saying that there are establishments out there that are even - you can buy there stock - Checkers for one - that has no carry out... Franklin/You can't go in and get anything at all. Thornberry/It's all drive-thru. And it only takes three people to run them. Why require them to have five parking places? If we're gonna change it, why don't we change it to something - 1 don't know - I don't know what to change it to but I'm just saying there's a ... / Checkers? Thornberry/Checkers is a hamburger fast food hamburger restaurant. /Where? Norton/What kind of.... Thornberry/... and in Chicago - and there's some in Chicago. Norton/What kind of minimum would you suggest? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 2 Thornberry/I don't know. I don't know but I'm saying they don't even have five people working in those things and they do well - they do very well. Ah - some... Franklin/Cause it's all delivery? Thornberry/Pardon? Franklin/It's all delivery or it's all drive-thru? Thornberry/No, It's all drive-thru. Frankli~/Well... Thornberry/They take over areas where gas station haven't been able to make it or there's one on each corner and they use the gas station. Ah and remodel it and that's what... Franklin/Cause the two classifications that - we'd have to look at different classification then. Because the two classifications we have are the drive-thru carry-out... Thornberry/Right, yeah. Franklin/...and in those there can be seating that's less than 50% of the total floor area. So you can have people sitting there and eating and people driving up and getting it. You can have people, well drive-thru carryout... Thornberry/Drive-thru carryout like the old McDonalds where they went up to the window and they went out or they well, they didn't have drive-ttu-u's then but... Franklin/Uh hum. Thornberry/... or at a drive-thru you go thru - there's not seating on the inside. Franklin/Right. Thornberry/But you're still requiring five parking places. I can see that where there are people maybe in line like at the ice cream place where they have to park and go up and wait at the window behind somebody else. But if it's only drive-thrn - drive-thru only, people aren't even getting out of their cars. Why require them to have five parking places is my only question? I mean there isn't a distinction like that. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 3 Franklin/Yeah. I mean I can't answer that it's basically following the model of what we had before in terms of having the minimum number of spaces and so I'm not sure what to suggest. Thornberry/Maybe a third distinction of drive-thru only or something. Not even getting out of their cars. Franklin/Well, carry-out delivery has no inside seating. Thornberry/I understand but carry-out deliver you'd still need parking places for the carry-out people. Franklin/For the delivery people. Thornberry/The delivery people - yeah. But on a drive-thru only we don't have that distinction. Franklin/What about if we do this and see how it works? Thomberry/We could do that and then if this comes up and somebody has just a drive- thru, maybe we could get a different distinction that might work. Norton/I wanted to ask why we went from the drive-thru -- now you've gone from one per fifty to one per sixty-five - and that... Franklin/So you have less parking required. Norton/Yeah, and the one you went from one for two-hundred, right? Franklin/Uh hum. Norton/Which is what you do everywhere else. Franklin/Right and... Norton/Cause somebody said you could have gone to four-hundred, fight? Franklin/Could have - yes. But the one per two-hundred was to anticipate the use of it for something else. Um... Norton/Well, again we could always... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 4 Franklin/I mean a lot of these you know, you kind of take examples and you do surveys and then you come up with something that seems reasonable but it's not going to fit all circumstances and it often - it's pulling a number out of educated error. Norton/I just wondered do any of the owners - did you talk to any of them? Do they suggest a minimum or anything like that? Franklin/Um...You know whether- I don't know that Melody actually talked to people because this was observation of the lots. Thornberry/Well they talked to someone. I read that information. They talked to somebody from McDonalds. Franklin/Yeah. Norton/Oh that's right. Somebody from McDonalds gave them a little... Thornberry/I mean it wasn't... Franklin/Well that was -- that was the consequence of somebody coming in under our old regs. Which is probably what precipitated - this has been on the pending list for... Norton/...the new McDonalds. Thornberry/ Franklin/... a long time. Vanderhoef/How are we adjusting for the number of employees and their cars? Franklin/Well, we're estimating that based on the survey of the lots. Looking at peak hour demand of these different lots. What is our observation that these particular businesses require? And that is one reason to have these minimums of five. Because the five then covers some range of potential employees. They may have only three employees but, you know, somebody may come to fix the oven or something. Vanderhoef/I just wondered if it was enough. Norton/You mean like for delivery... Thornberry/ This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 5 Vanderhoef/Well, depending on the number of employees and different establishments would have different numbers, but as your square footage goes up ... Champion/But even if you only have three employees, they have to overlap because you don't have one leave the restaurant and the other one goes to park and goes in. Thornberry/That's fight but they may not all drive. O'Donnell/That's right. Thornberry/The thing is - Oh, for the record, the other company was Rally's that does it. Checkers and Rally's - that doesn't have any walk-up window and no indoor seating. It's all drive-thru. But Dee, if you had fifty parking places, regardless of how many employees you had the business owner if you needed fifty-five for your customers, chances are the owners not going to have the employees parking on their lot. There gonna have them park somewhere else. Franklin/Remember too - these are minimum requirements - and so if the business needs more they're gmma provide more. (All talking) Kubby/Or they could be subsidizing their employees with transit. Thornberry/That's true. Norton/Right. O'Donnell/Or the employees could be taking a bicycle and parking on the roof. Norton/ (All talking) Kubby/Even if we end up thinking about Dean's idea about allowing zero, we still need to have some green space that could be convened to parking later for another use. So, we don't really lock that lot into only that use forever. Franklin/Well, them is always the option of land banking. Norton/Let's go with what we got here. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session /Yeah. Franklin/All right? Enough on that? Norton/Unless we hear something different tomorrow night, yeah. Franklin/Right. I think you probably won't hear anything from anybody on that one. b. Amending the Planned Development Housing overlay (OPDH-12) plan for Silvercrest, a 21.53-acre 5-1ot residential subdivision including 68 assisted living units, 120 independent living units, a 40 bed medical rehabilitation facility and a 900 square foot medical office building, located at the southeast quadrant of Scott Boulevard and American Legion Road (REZ99-0005). Franklin/The next one is the public hearing and first consideration on OPDH-12 for Silvercrest. I'm gonna show you the changes that have occurred to this because this is something that you approved already in a different iteration. O 'Donnell/A different what? Franklin/A different plan. O'Donnell/I knew that. (All talking) Thornberry/... regurgitate. Franklin/I thought I was. Norton/Don't get any on ya though, Dean. Thornberry/I know. I was... Franklin/Are you making fun of me? Several Voices/No. (All talking) Lehman/The changes are outlined in black? Page 6 This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 7 Franklin/No. Thornberry/Everyone get out their pointer. Kubby/We missed you when you were gone... Thornberry/ Franklin/This is the original plan that already went through the council and was approved and it has this kind of spider-shaped rehabilitation facility and then this building has changed also. Just the footprint of it and now I will show you... Norton/The entrances in the same place? Franklin/No. This had a service drive right down here and this is the service drive is eliminated. This is what went through the Planning and Zoning Commission and in your staff report you would notice that it said that the fire marshal had not completed the review yet. Let me point out the changes from the one you already approved. This little thing here. This is the new rehabilitation facility. The spider is gone. It's now a square and then this building has been spread out a little bit more. This was approved by the Planning and Zoning Commission and then the fire marshal reviewed it. He was very busy at the time when this originally went through. The problem that was discerned was in the turning movements on the entry road. This turning movement right here - was too tight for a fire truck to get down into here. So, basically what's happened is that this drive is more of a "T" here that allows an easier movement here for the fire truck at this point. Kubby/Seems like less paving. Franklin/With this? Kubby/Yeah. Franklin/Um. (All talking) Franklin/I don't know, because you've got a little parking area here than you didn't have before. Kubby/Okay. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 8 Franklin/But I think you know it still has the median and basically that's the only change between what the Plaxming and Zoning Commission recommended and what is before you now. And of course, this particular drawing does not show all the landscaping that you see on the other. Thornberry/But this is what we're considering. Franklin/This is what you're considering. Yes. Norton/This seems to me - pardon me - go ahead you're in the middle. Franklin/No, it's okay. Norton/ Well, you said something staff report that there was a parking in the new plan. Parking in a somewhat different place it is - but underground in an earlier version. Franklin/Right. What happened with this new plan is there are garages along here. Norton/Oh yeah. Franklin/Whereas before you would come in and go in underneath. (pause) Um, let's see. You came here I guess? Norton/Yeah. Franklin/And went in underneath the building. So, it's more.. Norton/So there's more exposed parking. Franklin/There's more exposed parking. Yeah. And the designs that were in your packet, little tiny ones. We looked at that in terms of the whole garage issue and find that this is a large building and so they kind of just disappear into the building. Kubby/ So when you add all those things up though you look at fewer units of reconfigured footprint parking as rearranged. At what point does it become substantial and have to... Franklin/That's why you're seeing it again. Because we determined that this was a substantial change and it had to go back through the process. So that first thing that I showed you had already gone through planning and zoning and the This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 9 council and all the three readings and this is one reason that Dial Company would like the expedited considerations because they have gone through it once. Um, basically what's changing is that there are forty beds in the rehab facility instead of the sixty and the independent living facility changed in terms of footprint but not in terms of number of units. Norton/The spider building went from some bigger area down to forty? Franklin/Yes. Norton/Yeah. Franklin/Now, the one issue that we have called out to the developers and want to bring to your attention too, in case there is a proposal for further development of this ground to the south on outlot A, is that we are not guaranteeing access to Scott Boulevard. It's going to depend on what is proposed there and there are problems with getting access within the development here because of the topography. It would mean a very steep drive. And so the developers notice that is an issue but they have chosen to go forward with this layout. Kubby/But doesn't that set us up for if they want to redevelop outlot A, that really the only feasible choice is to allow them out on Scott? Franklin/Well, I think... Kubby/... we can't say no completely, can we? Cause that doesn't allow them use of their property. Franklin/No. Well, this is all, outlot A is attached to these other, it is not a salable lot it's all part of the whole development. Kubby/So like if they wanted to expand what they are doing... Franklin/Um hum Kubby/...the only way they could redevelop that? Franklin/Well, and the only way they are going to be able to do that is come back through for an amended OPDH plan. Kubby/So they couldn't sell that except to write it off. Franklin/Not without coming back through you. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 10 Norton/But in the earlier plan... Franklin/And I think, I'm sorry just... Norton/In the earlier plan there had been an... Franklin/A service drive. The service drive yes and we have said to them you know it's possible there could be an access to Scott Boulevard, but it depends very much on what you're putting in there and what kind of traffic it's generated... Norton/... suppose they expand that rehabilitation center from forty to eighty? Franklin/Then that may be perfectly appropriate and we have the service road here or something. Kubby/So, Eleanor, could we, um, fairly and legally say - no, you can't do the development you want because it will need really a street onto Scott and we feel like that's not safe or not prudent to do? Norton/How much can we make it stick is ... Franklin//It would be a rezoning. Dilkes/ Franklin/She's saying if we approve this plan and they come in later for something here which would require an amended OPDH, could we deny them access to Scott Boulevard. Dilkes/If we thought it was going to create traffic problems or... Franklin/You'd have to have a reason, sure. Dilkes/...you'd have to have reason. Franklin/Okay? Vanderhoef/ I wanted to ask about the parking. You alluded to going for ... Franklin/Larry, maybe you can answer that. I tried to get that info from Bob but couldn't get a hold of him. Whether the decision was to increase the number of parking spaces on the plan or to go to the Board of Adjustment. Do you know? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 11 Schnittjer/The current plans shows all of the required parking. They will be, my understanding, proceeding with an application for the Board of Adjustment to remove that portion of parking. It's illustrated noah of the ... yeah. (All talking) Franklin/It's designed in. What they'd have to ask for is that that either be reduced in terms of the requirement or land banked. Thank you, Larry... Norton/...seventeen short or something. Yeah. So they're going in with enough? Franklin/Right. There's enough on the plan. Kubby/That's smart, very smart. Franklin/Okay? Vanderhoef/ I was concerned how does the number of spaces for this complex compare to the Oaknoll spaces where there' s constantly not enough visitor parking when you want to go? Franklin/Oaknoll received a variance at least on one occasion to reduce their parking. So this complies with our requirements. That's one way in which it varies. Vanderhoef/ Well, I just want to know the comparison because I have nothing to gauge it by. I know there has always been a lack of parking available over at Oaknoll as a visitor wanting to go and park there. So, how are our standards... Franklin/Well, I'd have to look at the full Oaknoll requirements and these full requirements relative to the use and - I don't know off the top of my head. Vanderhocf/ Okay. Franklin/I can find out for tomorrow... Norton...on Scott come through? Franklin/Pardon me? Norton/The utilities easement along American Legion is... Franklin/That's all set. Yeah. That was set the other time through. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 12 Thornberry/You say Oaknoll got a - requested to have fewer parking places? Franklin/That's right. They got a variance years and years and years ago, back in the seventies probably, to reduce the amount of parking that they would have to provide. And I think what's happened is that the mode of service, there's a lot more service providers that come to Oaknoll than there were twenty years ago, and so the parking situation, the dynamic has changed. But, this development meets our current requirements. Vanderhoef/ I just question whether it's enough. Franklin/Well, if we were to say that it's not enough, it means we have to change our Code... Vanderhoef/ I understand you can't change it for this I'm just... Franklin/Right. Vanderhoef/ ...thinking out loud that as a visitor going into that large of independent living area and only allowing one space per unit - besides thinking about employees... Franklin/Well, it may be that with more active seniors that we need to re-look at those parking requirements too. Vanderhoef/ I would put that as a possibility to put on the work list just to look at it. We haven't been building these and now all at once we have several before us and times are changing and it might be we need to look at them again. Franklin/Yeah. Vanderhoef/ Anybody else interested? Franklin/Is that something... (All talking) Kubby/I would be interested but it would be really low. We have other things. We keep adding things and then we keep adding things and then and so Champion/ How many housing units are there at the independent living facility? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 13 Franklin/One hundred twenty. Champion/ Okay, how many parking spaces are there? Franklin/Oh, I don't know... Champion/ Just roughly. Franklin/There's probably at least one hundred twenty, cause I think it's one per is the requirement. Vanderhoef/What they've done is they have put one per assisted living and one per independent living and they have put forty in there for the medical office and forty in there for the rehab area. Lehman/Well there's a lot of parking then... Champion/ ...wouldn't think that people who live in assisted living are going to be driving their car? Norton/Not suppose to be wheeling around so much... Franklin/One would hope... Norton/... leave the Porsche sit. Vanderhoef/ That part of the area turns in to more service providers with cars that come in. Franklin/Well, we can put that on the list on the bottom. (All talking) Franklin/What was that? (All talking) Franklin/Norton's still driving? Lehman/Okay, moving along. c. Amending City Code subsections 14-5H, Site Plan Review, and 14-65, Performance Standards, regarding lighting standards. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 14 Franklin/All right, next item is public hearing and first consideration on the lighting standards. I have nothing more to say. Kubby/ Do we have any better sense of when the issue of having other couple of entities having to deal with our nuisance codes for a better term, um would come before Planning and Zoning? Franklin/Well, we have not formal direction to put that - if we want to look at the pending list and to put it someplace other than where it is - we need to do that... Kubby/Where is... Norton/ Kubby/...is there any estimate of when that would rise to the top or it's so far down that... Franklin/Oh, it's way down there. It would be a year or more. Norton/ Franklin/At least. Norton/ This can't presumably cannot happen now. But, you know, the lighting standards talking about the foot candles at the margin and we've all heard various stories about the foot candles at the lighting situation in question and mystified by it because nothing speaks to the direct view of the light source. Does it? Franklin/Well, it does. That was why the height and the shielding was put in there to get at that issue. Um, there was, if you might recall, there was discussion of having some kind of regulation of lighting on site. Like, you know, under the canopy, a certain number of foot candles, requiring... Norton/The shielding will protect so you won't have to look at the light, you know... Franklin/So that it won't be so bright, like the place out on Mormon Trek there and Highway 1 that is so bright. Um, part of that is because those lights are hanging down below the canopy I believe, or there, the fixture itself is visible, the globe, the bulb. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Norton/ Council Work Session Page 15 Well, I went out to look the other night. The thing is in your face no matter whether there is illumination where you are looking at that light. Even if at the football stadium lights clear across a block away are bright to look at directly but you seal them they wouldn't get any light on the field so I don't kd~ow what... Franklin/Well, there is an exemption in this Code for athletic fields. Yeah. O'Donnell/ (All talking) O'Dom~ell/ Thornberry/ built. It'd be better to put them somewhere else, hugh? ...build around them, that's the only option... The lighting of the tennis courts was probably done after the houses were Lel-unan/Oh, true. O'Donnell/ You mean like last Fall? Lehman/Yeah. O'Donnell/ But the tennis court was probably there when the people moved in the ... (All talking) Lehman/Well, be that as it may we're going to be talking about the lighting ordinance and that's going to be another issue. Norton/I think the other issue that -just at this point since we're talking about lighting the comment in the packet about the lights downtown illuminating the sky I thought was kind of interesting. I felt kind of guilty. Thornberry/ ...you know. I want light downtown, especially ... but the problems we got downtown, just soon have light. Kubby/But that's not what the issue was... Norton/... upward like the sky. Kubby/Cause it wasn't directed to where it needed to be which is also inefficient economically. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 16 Norton/It said it could use half the power maybe. Kubby/But we've asked that that be looked into, haven't we? Lehman/Yes. I think that's true. Norton/...lids on it... Lehman/No, I think that it can be done on the bulb itself, inside the globe. (All talking) Franklin/We did that on Dubuque Street and the difference was not remarkable. Lehman/Oh, is that fight? Norton/The difference is not remarkable you said? /Is it noticeable? Franklin/It depends on how high you are up. (All talking) Lehman/Did it make much difference? Kubby/I think the answer is no. Franklin/No. Lehman/Well, at least it wasn't remarkable. O'Donnell/ Champion/ (All talking) Karr/There's a letter on your table. /Because that... What's the schedule on the shields for the lights out at the tennis court? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 17 Norton/That's a public meeting isn't it? O'Donnell/ But that's gorma reduce that substantially and there's another issue, a couple of those lights go into the parking lot and there's now a safely issue. You have people walking into the parking lot that should be there. They were there all the time though, weren't they? Yeah. Norton/ O'Donnell/ (All talking) Norton/ Lehman/We may get an opportunity to address that. O'Donnell/ Yeah, and that's all we can do. (All talking) Vanderhoef/ Karen, can you tell me on your November memo, where you had done lighting studies, when they talk about HyVee, 1 st Ave., are we talking about the new HyVee or the old one? Franklin/The new one. Vanderhoef/ The new one. Frm~klin/That's one foot candle over at the property line. Vanderhoef/ Okay, do you have any readings on the old one? That's the one I'm most familiar with. I lived with it for twenty-five years. /Probably not. Franklin/No, I don't think so because I think when we were doing this it had already...yeah it had definitely closed. (All Talking) Franklin/So, the lights would not have been... Vanderhoef/...even though those lights were on that time. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 18 Franklin/But the building lights weren't on. Well, I don't know. I don't know. We didn't do readings there. (Kubby and Vanderhoef talking) Vanderhoef/...just won't use those as a gauge. Franklin/Yeah. Kubby/ d. Consider a resolution approving annexation of approximately 10.3 acres of property located east of Scott Boulevard at Washington Street (ANN99-0002) Franklin/Next item is a resolution on the ten acres east of Scott Boulevard. You had you're public hearing on that already. And then we had continued the public hearing and first consideration of the ordinance to rezone. This is the Glasgow property east of Scott Boulevard and the housing for the elderly project. The conditional zoning agreement is signed now, so you may go forward with closing the public hearing and first consideration on this tomorrow. Norton/We can go ahead... Franklin/Yes. Are there any questions on this? Norton/I had a question that, I guess, came from minutes, I think it was ... Ann's question or comment maybe to me privately that, is this a use for OPDH that was intended to this kind of situation? She seemed to think this OPDH was for something else ... big structure. Isn't that one of the reasonable uses of OPDH? That overlay zone? Franklin/1 think it is. Now, what Ann may have been harkening back to was when we first did OPDH's, which is now quite a long time ago, probably twenty years or so when it was first developed, um, the reason to do OPDH's was when you could not do a conventional subdivision because of the topography. And I think as time has gone on, we've used OPDH's more to integrate different types of housing in areas and allow that to happen after it goes through that public process that the OPDH requires. Norton/ This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 19 Franklin/So, if you look at the language of the Code, um, I think it says something about when a conventional subdivision is not appropriate or feasible or something like that. Kubby/You mean like to allow these greater setbacks so that it's further from the road or it's further from single family homes or something? Franklin/Well, and also, I guess the more critical thing is that you allow building types that are not allowed by right in the zone. Which in this case would be single family or duplex... Kubby/And that was from a ... Norton/ Well, she thinks it's too big a structure ... not enough transition I guess - or something like that. Large structures to the smaller ones on Hummingbird Lane. Franklin/Yes. Yes. And I mean that's a valid position to take... Norton/ Franklin/... if you feel that way. Norton/I still don't have a good view, feeling for what it looks like from Hummingbird Lane, but whether it's going to loom too much. I think it might be protected on the west from Scott. But I'm not sure... Franklin/Well, from Hummingbird, um, Larry correct me if I 'm wrong, but I think there's about, at least a ten foot grade differential which would mean that of the three stories, there is basically two stories that are going to come up above Hummingbird Lane. Norton/ Franklin/So, it shouldn't loom because two stories, many houses there are two stories and many of the houses that will be built are likely to be two stories. Kubby/So, it may not loom in height but it might loom in mass. Norton/ Franklin/Um huh, which was one of the reasons for the concerns about the architectural detail on it and the amount of work we did with that. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 20 Kubby/ I mean the other advantage here is that with an OPDH the neighbors do have recourse that if things aren't exactly as they were produced on the OPDH agreed to, then we have some ability to enforce the OPDH in terms of landscaping or the architectural details... Franklin/Sure. Yeah. Kubby/...all that stuff. Norton/But that's all set forth in the ... Franklin/And it's all set forth on the plan. So then you can't then vary the plan if it turns out to look bigger than you thought it was going to. Okay? e. Conditionally changing the zoning designation of approximately 14.83 acres located east of Scott Boulevard at Washington Street from Medium Density Single- Family Residential (RS-8), Low Density Multi-Family Residential (RM-12), and Country Suburban Residential (RS) to Planned Development Housing Overlay (OPDH-8; 8.37 acres), Low Density Single-Family Residential (RS-5; 5.63 acres) and Low Density Multi-Family Residential (RM-12; .83 acres), and a request for a preliminary OPDH plan to allow 74 dwelling units on 8.16 acres. (REZ99-0004) f. Consider an ordinance amending City Code subsection 14-4B pertaining to a change in Board of Adjustment notice requirements and incorporation of Board powers and procedures into the Zoning Chapter. (Pass and adopt) Franklin/Um, the next item is the pass and adopt on the ordinance amendments for the Board of Adjustment. g. Consider a resolution approving a preliminary and final plat of Milder Meadows, a 43.4 acre, two-lot residential subdivision with one outlot located in Fringe Area B at 4872 American Legion Road. Franklin/Item G is the resolution for Milder Meadows and you have a letter to defer indefinitely. There's a little problem with getting a signature on an easement so that' s at their request. h. Consider a motion to forward a letter to the Johnson County Board of Supervisors recommending approval of an extraterritorial rezoning of 2.68 acres adjacent to 1244 Devon Drive NE in Fringe Area A from Suburban Residential (RS) to Rural (AI). (CZ9912) This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 21 Franklin/Um, Item H is a county rezoning and this is basically a piece of land that a propeay owner in Prairie View Estates is purchasing as a buffer to their residential development and would like to rezone it to A1, which is soa of something I've never run across before and so ~ve're recommending approval on that one. Noaon/...I couldn't figure out the buffering there, maybe it's something... Framklin/Well, I think it's just space and insuring that that space is gonna be... Norton/ Vanderhoef/ What's the access to that lot? Franklin/To the piece that he's buying? Vanderhoef/ Uh huh. Franklin/It probably - it will be through his lot. Lehman/It would have to be. Vanderhoef/... to the noah or either side actually, east or west side of it. Franklin/Well, you'd have to go through his lot, but once it's purchased it'll all just become pan of one. Lehman/It becomes one lot doesn't it? Franklin/It would have to be. Kubby/Can it be re-subdivided without a rezoning once it's A1. Vanderhoef/ Franklin/Probably could, but then you wouldn't be able to get to it. Kubby/Uh huh. Franklin/So... Kubby/So this is kind of locking it in. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 22 Franklin/Yeah. Vanderhoef/ Well, unless the other area to the north of that property develops. Norton/Yeah, that's what... Vanderhoef/ ...was my question... Franklin/Well, what, the consequence may be that it's an open space and undevelopable forever because it gets landlocked. Norton/I figure that's what the person buffering themselves... (All talking) Franklin/That's right. Norton/..on the north... Franklin/...because of concern about the development to the north around here which is possible because that is north of Prairie View Estates. I mean this is right on the edge, the north edge of Prairie View Estates. So It's buying some insulation. i. Consider a motion to forward a letter to the Johnson County Board of Supervisors recommending denial of an extraterritorial rezoning of one acre located in Fringe Area A at 3005 Highway 1 NE from Rural (A1) to Commercial Agricultural (C- AG). (CZ9913) Franklin/Um, okay and then the last item is a letter to the Board of Supervisors recommending denial of a rezoning and this is for a property that is out near Fox Lane on Highway 1. The request is for a Commercial Agricultural Zoning for a veterinary clinic and the suggestion is that instead of zoning this commercial, that it be done as a home occupation. Kubby/And they can do what they plan on doing with that permit? Franklin/Right. Kubby/I mean we should least form of intervention, right? Franklin/Well, I think that they thought that if they were really successful with this they might then sell it at sometime and have a commercial endeavor. But, with the This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 23 fringe agreement, we didn't anticipate commercial development on Highway 1 as you get that far out - that's not part of the plan so it's not included. Thornberry/Let me ask you something... Franklin/I knew something was coming, I could just tell. Thornberry/If they put this business in their house. Franklin/Yeah. Thornberry/And they sell their house as that business is the business transferred over to the new owner? /Only if they're attached. Franklin/Usually, and I don't know the county law real well on this but, usually with home occupations you have to get a permit in the county, that you have to get a permit for that home occupation. Thornberry/It's already in that home would the new person would have to... O'Donnell/ The new person... Franklin/Yeah any new person would have to get that same kind of permit. O'Donnell/ ...selling your car, the new owner has to get a driver's license. Franklin/I'm not positive about that Dean, but I mean we don't even have permits for home occupations in Iowa City. You just do it unless your, well unless your neighbors complain. Kubby/Unless you have eight to ten employees coming in... (All talking) Franklin/Right. /Okay Norton/Well I didn't understand the access but for example the concern about access off of Highway 1 to this place, which is expressed in the letter, the staff memo. That This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 24 concem isn't going to differ if they're doing the same thing as a home occupation that they could do otherwise... Franklin/But if you zone it C-AG, it allows you to then grow that business into a bigger business which is a larger operation. Norton/The assumption is this will keep it down to a college roar, huh? Norton/Yes, because they have to live with it (All talking) Lehman/Thank you Karen Kubby/Your welcome. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 25 Review Agenda Items 98-50 S1 Lehman/All right, before you get into more trouble Mr. Thornberry, we're going to review agenda items. Any comments on the items in the agenda? Ernie, I have a couple for you. Lehman/Yes, Atkins/Under the consent calendar the waiting room outside of the police we request that be deferred indefinitely. Vanderhoef/Which one is that? Lehman/d (1) Atkins/d (1) we are not going to do right now. Vanderhoef/So were just going to delete it? Lehman/Delete... Atkins/Ah, I think you have an explanation in there on the civic center project. We're scaling that back. We're basically only gonna... Norton/Steve, I'm having trouble hearing you. I can't hear you. You got a microphone there? Atkins/Is it working? Sorry. The civic center project we've scaled back dramatically the bids came in, as you are well aware of, substantially higher than we had expected. So the project we are going to recommend is basically that which has some weather driven, that is we would put up the steel, put up the building, all of the internal renovation projects are being postponed for the time being. We'll bring those back to you separately. And, I need to have some idea if you would like to schedule a liquor license enforcement administration discussion? Vanderhoef/Yes I would like that. Atkins/Sooner? Norton/But there are basically three renovation things first floor, third floor, and at least... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 26 Atkins/The project we will bid as the third floor public ... up to that floor, HIS, that is the assisted housing program will move over here so we want to take advantage of that grant. The clerk's office and the persom~el office will be renovated. The police, second floor and lobby postponed. The department of HIS, which would move over into the word processing, postponed, and the planning department would be postponed awaiting the move of cable TV. So the really only project at all is the third floor. Everything else is on hold. /So item #22 would be voted down? Atkins/Yes. /You are going to be rejecting those bids? Atkins/We recommend rejecting the bids and setting another hearing for the reduced projects. Kubby/To the CDBG, issues #19 and #20, why is the Old Brick separated out? (All talking) Champion/ Lehman/Okay, understandable. Kubby/I had some questions on the limitation on campaign contributions? Norton/Yeah. Kubby/It's like how could we prove that this law prevents corruption because we've for a substantial period of time and so we wouldn't,, the only way to do it would be to repeal it and then if something weird happened, to then use that as justification for some kind of limit? Or if we wanted to have a limit, is it possible for us to choose a defensible limit? Dilkes/I think you could choose a defensible limit. I mean the Supreme Court has held ,as I noted in the memo, that you can have a contribution limit that' s narrowly tailored to serve the interest of preventing corruption, either actual or perceived corruption O'Donnell/ A thousand dollars? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 27 Dilkes/The limit approve in that case, that Supreme Court case, was a thousand dollars. Now the Eighth Circuit, which is the circuit that we are in, has said we're not just gonna to say that just because there was corruption in the federal election process in 1970, whatever that was, that there must be corruption in your community which necessitates a contribution limit. That there has to be, um, documentation of a problem. To think when I started looking at this one, one of the problems that I really see with it is there was never that documentation in the first place. Kubby/... I'm sorry... Dilkes/And there was not only that but the original limit was $125 and then subsequently dropped to $50 with no explanation. So, yeah you do find yourself in sort of a difficult position because I guess one could say that we have no problems because we have this limit all these years. Kubby/How would we go about detem~ining what that defensible limit would be for our community? Dilkes/I think you, if you decided that you wanted to go ahead and look at trying putting a new contribution limit in place, I think there is a lot of work that would have to be done. I think we would have to look at other communities and see what types of contribution limits are in place. But I think my reading of the Eighth Circuit case says that is not going to be sufficient. There is two prongs of the analysis, you have to get over that hump were the Eighth Circuit says, at some point it's just too low I don't care what you say, to pass the first amendment muster. I don't know where that amount is, I mean, Eighth Circuit opinions give us some indication that its higher than $50. But then you also have to go through the analysis of determining whether you have a problem. /It's a catch 22. Dilkes/It's a tough issue because we don't have any state limits. I mean it's not a problem that's been identified at the state level. Lehman/ What happens if we wait for someone to challenge it? /Right. Lehman/ Just leave it alone? Dilkes/Well, this is the thinking I went through on that. You certainly could do that and that's your call, As I understand it there have been, maybe Marian can give you more detail on this, but as I understand in my discussion with Marian, there have This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 28 been city attorneys in the past have looked at it, the Charter Review Committee has looked at it, there is a pretty good understanding that there was a problem with it but they said we'll leave it in place and let it be challenged. It seems to me that the worst position to be in, is to be in the middle of an election and have one person believing and I think, very clearly so, that it is unconstitutional deciding not to be bound by it and you've got somebody else who is choosing to be bound by it and therefor you have different rules applying to different people. There is some heightened scrutiny on this issue I think. There was recently a federal injunction entered against portions of the state campaign ethics and contribution law and I think we'll have some, this Eighth Circuit case the most recent one, is going to be reviewed by the Supreme Court and I think we'll have some good, and hopefully, we'll have some guidance from the Supreme Court as to what you have to do to make a limit defensible. Not all circuit courts have looked at it the way the Eighth Circuit has. Some have said, you know, the Supreme Court in 1970 said a thousand, a thousands okay. So we might have something, but yeah that is something you could do. I generally don't think, I mean ... (Talking) Dilkes/I don't think that's a good approach but that's , no, but that was my thinking on it. When I got to the point of thinking what is the worst of all these different options and it seems to me the worst is for it to be challenged mid-election then. Norton/Does this effect at all disclosure laws and keeping records all around. Franklin/No. Which raises another point about this $50 municipal limit there is absolutely no enforcement mechanism. Except self-enforcement. But there is no enforcement mechanism in the city code. There were enforcement mechanisms in place when it was originally adopted and those were repealed. So there is no way to enforce this $50 limit. (All talking) /Several years ago the city attorney... Norton/The election board I thought, they filed a complaint. Dilkes/Well disclosure reports are filed with the state board. And I think they might bring, they might see on there a limit, a contribution in excess of the $50 and bring that to our attention. But in the past, the ordinance said that was a simple misdemeanor that's gone. In the past the election is void if you accept a contribution in excess of that amount, that's gone. I mean, what are we supposed to do if that's brought to our attention. There is no enforcement mechanism in the This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Code. Perhaps you could call it a municipal infraction, maybe. that gets you very far. Norton/How did this work, how is this situation consistent, when I've been turning down $2.99 cups of coffee? (All talking) Dilkes/That's a completely different issue. That's a gift law. Lehman/Yes. Norton/$2.99 is all I can have but you can give me unlimited money for my campaign? Lehman/ You can also get more than $2.99 for a cup of coffee. Champion/ (All talking) Thornberry/Several years ago it was brought to our attention that the sign during an election campaign could be put up earlier than originally was thought, that they could be illuminated and they could be larger than was originally thought. Then that was changed. CHANGE TAPE TO REEL 99-50 SIDE 2 Thornberry/ ...or time limitations on campaign signs now? Norton/Marian reviews all that. Dilkes/That was happening fight as I came and it was and Eighth Circuit opinion that invalidated some regulations on political signs. I think is what you're remembering. Karr/ We did change that as a result of that and the new regulations were in effect the last campaign and will be published again this time. But that is exactly the situation that occurred. Dilkes/Right. Thornberry/ far. Page 29 I don't know if I think once a problem is discerned, doing nothing does not get you very This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 30 Lehman/Are you recommending...? (All talking) Lehman/ Eleanor are you recommending the we repeal this until such time as we can pass one that's defensible? Dilkes/That's my recommendation. Lehman/ Thank you. (All talking) Kubby/I have two further questions on this. One is, will you keep an eye on that Missouri case so that when that comes down it might help us determine.. Dilkes/I'm hoping it will. Kubby/Okay, and the other question is, what if our community perceived that in repealing this ordinance that the prevention of correction would be jeopardized. I mean through a community survey or a community forum explaining the history and the current court cases. I~alT/ Can I respond to that why Eleanor's taking -um I think that's exactly why we're in the spot we're in Karen. I think over the years as we have discussed this and it's been brought to our attention these type of questions, that' s exactly what the underlying tone was that lets be challenged on it, lets see what happens we believe that this is a community standard if you will, this is a statement we in Iowa City wish to make? What we're now heating though as a result of the latest Eighth Circuit opinion, is that we now know another step closer that it's still is, there's a real question on whether it would stand up. So it isn't just on one side it's the right thing to do it's the right message to send. If we know legally that it is something that we, if challenged, we could not get... Kubby/ Karr/ ...but it's a different... Kubby/Right but I'm suggesting that we might find, I mean that it says there that there has to be some basis for your limit that if we out to the community to document what people thought the community standard was would that be helpful in creating our limit This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 31 Dilkes/1 think now, I think what Marjan is saying is that's sort of what's, you're taking it a step further... Kubby/ Dilkes/... to document ... that community standard. There a couple, I don't think that's gom~a get you there. First of all, it can't just be a perception of corruption ... perception that we need this limit, um in the community, ah, to avoid corruption. I told you about the case where there was that affidavit by the legislators who thought there was a problem and therefore they wanted this limit and frankly a lot of these things that are challenged are legislation put into affect by citizen initiative. Um and that's a citizen thought, a community standard that there's a problem. That doesn't really do it. That the perception has to be a reasonable one based on the actuality of what happens in the court Norton/Incredibly so you'd decide about that tobacco case ~vhere the person actually voted in a way that looked like they'd been swayed but yet changed his opinion or something it s very... Dilkes/No I think what the court said in that case is that simply voting consistently with those people who give you money is not enough to show corruption. Norton/ Dilkes/So it's a tough, the way the Eighth Circuit does it, is a tough standard. Karr/ But to follow-up Karen, I really believe, just as was mentioned earlier, once we get some more information on this. Not only will staff be monitoring anyway, but I think our community will be too. Kubby/I hope so, I mean I raised ten grand $15, $20, $25, $50 bucks at time. Can you... Thornberry/I didn't raise that much. Lehman/No, but a lot of people have... Kubby/ (All talking) Norton/We could get somebody to volunteer to be corrupt in order to bring... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 32 (All talking) Lehman/ All right. Is there any other discussion about agenda items? Karr/ I do. Lehman/Yes. Karr/ I wanted to just add two items for tomorrow night's agenda and they will be distributed. One of them is to the consent calendar that's setting a public heating on the budget amendments for May 18th and you'll be getting that information. And then secondly, a resolution ratifying settlement of pending litigation, if you're so inclined to act on it after your executive session tomorrow evening. Lehman/ Okay. (All talking) Norton/These are two addition... Karr/ One addition to the consent calendar, which would be setting a public hearing that would be 4d(3) and the other would be a new item 24a, which would be a resolution ratifying settlement and that will be distributed tomorrow evening. Lehman/ Okay. Dilkes/I have one more agenda item. Lehman/yes. Dilkes/There is a resolution authorizing relocation assistance on the Iowa Ave. parking facility project and that is just simply, I thimk we need to put that on because the resolution authorizing property acquisition does not specifically provide for relocation assistance so I wanted to make that clear. We are not, as of right now anyway, required by law to provide that relocation assistance, but because we're not federally funded, but that has been as I understand it, the City's policy when displacing homes and businesses. And much of this is in connection with acquiring property anyway, so let me... (All talking) Vanderhoef/ I want to know how we come to... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 33 Dilkes/Basically, what we've been doing is we've been using the federal regulations for guidance. Vanderhoef/... in terms of how much per person? Lehman/ Okay. Kubby/...we're not doing any for, there aren't any tenants in terms of residential tenants, are there? (All talking) Dilkes/There are some tenants whose leases run through July as I understand it, so there may be a couple months... Kubby/But, most of the people's ended in May 1 or something, right? Lehman/ I don't so... Dilkes/No. Lehman/ I think most of them ran through the end of July. O'Donnell/ ...July. Kubby/I thought we had timed it such that their leases ran... Dilkes/We had timed it such that it ended a the end of the semester. At the time we made that decision, we weren't in direct contact with the tenants. Mr. Pattschull was having that contact so, Lehman/ Eleanor, on the relocation expense, will that be mitigated by the amount of time left on the lease? In other words, if you've got two months left on a lease... Dilkes/Oh, for the tenants? Absolutely. Sure. I don't think that's going to amount to much with respect to the residential tenants. The main is going to be the relocation of the businesses. Lehman/ Right. Okay. Kubby/Well, it's not, isn't there a buy-out for the rest of the lease, but there is also actual moving expenses. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 34 Dilkes/Moving expenses. Norton/Were the federal guidelines the ones that were used, for example, with the airport and other situations where we've done this same kind of thing? Dilkes/Yes and I believe that's what you used as a guide for the Towncrest Mobile Home... (Talking) Dilkes/No? You didn't use that as a guide? /We did. Lehman/ I don't know what the guide was but there was sure a lot of money spent out there. Dilkes/Maybe I'm wrong about... Norton/I just... (All talking) Dilkes/Interestingly enough the condemnation bill that is the legislature that was put on the Governor's desk, provides for relocation assistance on all projects, so that will change. Kubby/So, are tenants fully aware of what their, of what they should be saving their receipts on moving expenses? Dilkes/I've been in touch with them personally now, so. Lehman/ Other agenda items? Iowa Avenue Parking Garage 99-50, 1 Plans, specifications, form of contract, and estimate of cost for the construction of the Iowa Avenue multi-use parking facility project, establishing amount of bid security to accompany each bid, directing city clerk to publish advertisements for bids, and fixing time and place for receipt of bids. Lehman/ Iowa Avenue garage...talk to us about that. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 35 Kubby/Can we get the A/C turned down? /no, it feels great. (All talking) Monson/ Jeff said I had an hour, but I'm only going to use five minutes. Lehrnan/ That 's all you have - Jeff lies. Monson/We're at the point, you know, we're ready to go to bids. The project is very much the same as what we have proposed to you previously. We have not changed anything substantial. The details, possibly a few have changed, but really the project is very much as what you've seen earlier. The elevations you can see, have not changed other than a couple of window heads have changed from rounded to square and some of the details that we needed to change to meet the various groups. A little bit of a change in stair or elevator location for the Ecumenical people and those sort of details. The floor plans we have in front indicate by color coding the different uses of the project. The yellow being retail space. The green being actually green space within the light core. The blue being the parking office and circulation space or central space for the ramp itself. So, and then the areas that we have left basically uncolored are the parking garage itself. We've highlighted in red the entrances and exit situation for the ramp here with two lanes coming off of Iowa Avenue for entrance and three lanes leaving for exiting requirements. But pretty much the project... /Kevin, I think you're gonna have to hold that up. I know I can't see it. Monson/ Okay. I'm sorry Norton/Can you tell me while you're at that how much parking does that leave possible in the three hundred block of Iowa Ave.? Monson/ Uh, I can't tell you that. Not involved in that part. Norton/ Looks like it must chew that up pretty completely. /During construction certainly. Davidson/No, Dee, I'm sorry I can't remember block by block exactly what it was. I think most of you were aware that it - was there seventy-five spaces left Kevin? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 36 That's what is sticking in my head that we went from like 230 to, we were losing about a 175 does that sound right or was there a 175 left? ... I'm sorry... Monson/We were losing close to 200... Davidson/Well, okay... (All talking) Norton/... that number Jeff, but my concern is this, that as you're proceeding west, the assumption that a lot of people will be entering this coming, going east is okay and that' s no sweat, but coming the other way off of Gilbert there'll be a lot of traffic see and making that left turn across the traffic... Davidson/Yeah, remember... Norton/That would be a queue lane? Davidson/...there won't be any...median parking anymore...there will be angle parking along the side... (All talking) Norton/ ...okay, I don't worry about that, except that there's atum lane so that they're not backing into the traffic lane. Davidson/Right. I mean you, you'll notice on the drawings that the entrance is pulled as far away from the Gilbert Street intersection... Norton/ Davidson/...so we feel and you know we have some experience with the other ramps for example, Capitol Street ramp has much less queue space than this ramp will have. And so we feel like we're in a better situation with this one, Dee, if I can peer over the top to see you... (All talking) Davidson/You're gonna lose roughly 48 spaces out of you're median parking .... and then you're also gonna lose the spaces directly in front of the entrance and exit through there so you're probably gonna lose another ten or fifteen. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 37 NortoW Well that's what that's what the ramp is for is to clean that stuff out of Iowa Ave., so I guess I'll sacrifice it. I just want, um, to be able to get, to make that left turn across without queuing back cause now you queue back... Davidson/Yeah, well obviously we were concerned about vehicles queuing back to Gilbert Street. We feel that we have a situation here that will work. Okay? Monson/ That was two minutes of my time... (All talking) Davidson/Oh, sorry. Monson/ Uh, we have 567 spaces within the, ah parking structure. As you know about 27,000 square feet of commercial areas and, ah those commercial areas are basically on Linn Street. As you know, the parking design was predicated on the idea of keeping Linn Street very much in it's historical kind of context with a lower scale faqade, ah and of course, the clock tower being the prominent feature of the Linn Street fa9ade, ah, which is very much reminiscent of course to the old city hall clock tower. Part of our plans do include in the entrance to Linn Street in the gallery of space, the actual mechanism of the original clock, ah, for the city hall which will be featured in the lobby as an artifact. On the opposite end of the building, at the Gilbert Street, we of course have also used the artifact, ah from Eastlawn, the pair of columns and the, ah, stone architrave above those columns as part of the entrance for that, ah, facade which is shown right here. Ah, again, the scale of the building on Iowa Ave. is broken up into divisions that helps identify that there are different businesses potentially on the first level and again to recall the kind of sympathetic streetscape of Iowa Ave. earlier in the century and to break the scale of the building down. Yet we have a very common cornice line that also indicates that this is, has a greater function than stores that does provide for parking. So we try to balance the needs of having a friendly building on Iowa Ave. ah, that is historic, but yet also provides for the modern need of expanded parking on Iowa Ave. I'd answer any questions. Atkins/I see in this estimate is $10,775,000. It seemed to me that the number were kicking around was twelve million dollars. Monson/ Ah, constructions costs, as of today, we project at $10,923,000. Atkins/Went up $200,000 since you wrote this, right? Monson/ Ah right. Um, we have some alternates actually that are contributing to that cost, ah which we can choose to elect to take or not to take. Total project cost to This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 38 date, including fees, ah contingency, ah field testing and inspection gets almost to twelve million. (All talking) Monson/ We're still below twelve million. (All talking) Atkins/Land acquisition? ... Relocation... Kubby/So, we're probably over at this point... Norton/How are the vertical clearances inside? You know there's, we have a lot of presumably a lot of seniors will be using this structure and many of them are, at least according to reports, kind of reticent to go into structures... Monson/ Okay. Norton/I guess they'll do so at hospital per force. They have no option, but downtown they choose not to. Will this be pretty friendly in that sense? Monson/Well I think because of the light core in the center of the ramp that we have, ah an opportunity to provide a lot of natural lighting into the structure which we have no ramp in town that really provides that degree of natural lighting within the building. So we think that a very important key to make it a more friendly space. Ah, we have basically only sixty foot wide decks and so that we have a lot of perimeter lighting as you can see we have a lot of widow openings and with the center light core we actually feel that we're gonna get a large contribution of natural lighting so that we don't have to bum the artificial lights during the day as well and we've got those on light sensors so as the day changes and the light conditions change. Those will come on as light is needed, but won't bum when they're not needed. Kubby/Great. Vanderhoef/ Questions, ah number one is, is contingency is usually about 10%? Monson/ Ah at this point we don't carry that large a contingency. We're carrying about a 5% contingency. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 39 Vanderhoef/ Okay, and secondly, could you tell me a little bit about the alternate on the, ah walkway/elevator situation that I've read a little bit about in the senior citizen memo? Monson/ Ah the connecting bridge? Vanderhoef/ Right. Monson/ This is what we're asking about? Lehman/ That isn't part of this though, right? Monson/ That's correct. We're not biding at this time the connecting link to the senior center. Vanderhoef/ Right, I understand that. I just while I had you here... Monson/ Sure, ah we've been looking at that and we anticipate, at your direction, going out to take bids as a separate project for that at a later date. At this point, it looks like we will have a connecting bridge matching the elevation of our third level of the parking structure, which would align with the potential, ah area being contemplated for the senior center expansion. Ah, at that level we'll come across the alley, a good clearance so that we'd have no problems with getting traffic, ah truck traffic and delivery traffic, through the alley and because that doesn't hit at exactly Senior Center's level we're gonna have to make a grade change to, ah align with the floors. In discussions with the senior centers staff, they believe that we should have an elevator that would actually take the people from the third level of the ramp down to the first level and enter at that level as well as being, we're there we can enter at second level or mezzanine level as well. So that's what we're investigating right now. Vanderhoef/ So show me where you're entry station or connection there. Monson/ Well let me show you a plan. Hold this up for you. This yellow area is the third level of the Linn Street side of the building. We have a stair tower right here which provides an egress point. This connecting bridge would actually come ttu'ough right here and go across the alley into the stairwell of the senior center area. So that we'd have to have exits on either side of that bridge, ah so that no one could be trapped on one side or the other without a second way of out so that' s the connection point right here. Vanderhoef/ Okay, and so how can that be secured for, ah usages? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 40 Monson/ It could be secured at either end. We could have a door actually on either side of the bridge so that when the senior centers closed, the traffic would not be going through the bridge. Vanderhoef/ Okay, and it would connect up. Monson/ Well, actually we're not showing that alley view... (All talking) Lehman/ Microphone... Kubby/Talk into the mic for the public record. Tim Schoreder/Okay, there's forty feet between the two buildings and the, ah the alley is twenty feet wide. It's just adjacent to the parking ramp, ah so there's another twenty feet to the senior center itself and the elevator shaft would actually stand outside the senior center building so as not to disturb the facade of it um and it would also support the end of the bridge and ah not really put any, ah that would take the weight off the possible bearing on the building so we would have little interruption of the existing building ah and hopefully come in right under one of the arches existing arches in the fagade. Kubby/And the exterior that can be made to look compatible with the building with the building, the senior center? Schroeder/Yes Kubby/That's not just metal over steel... Monson/ Right, we envision that that elevator tower would probably be in limestone to match the senior center rather than the ramp side of the elevator. Norton/It looks like the elevator would exit right into the senior center office, at that end? Monson/ Actually it's at the stairwell. We're actually going to take a piece of the stairwell. There's very large landing on the stairwell, so that would be a very natural penetration point gives us our natural exit. Norton/Yeah right. Monson/ So it works fairy well. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 41 Vanderhoef/ And I heard a figure of in the ball park of $350,000 to put that in, is that... Monson/ I'm not sure where that come from because we've have not done an estimate so I couldn't tell you ah... Davidson/What was that question again Dee? The numbers? Vanderhoef/ I just said I heard a number put out and I don't know if it 's accurate or not of $350,000. Davidson/Two-fifty, I think, might be a hundred and fifty was the early estimate then a hundred thousand for the elevator. I never heard three hundred and fifty myself... Vanderhoef/ ...well. okay, well I heard that... Davidson/...just very rough just in conversation... Vanderhoef/ Lehman/ Vanderhoef/ Txvo hundred fifty for the bridge and a hundred for the elevator? ... so that why I ah I had heard that one fifty originally and then when Ernie said three fifty to... Monson/ We haven't pick materials yet so we haven't planned on using any gold but... Laughter Norton/Anybody, ah seriously come with a name? I'm getting tired of referring to an Iowa Ave. multi-purpose structure. We gotta come with a name. I understand Clock Tower Plaza or whatever got away from us, but somebody's gotta come with a name or else we'll have to have a contest. Laughter Thornberry/ I thought it was suppose be the parking facility but now it's now and I have a question regarding all of the commercial space in the middle picture of the exterior. Monson/ Yes. Thornberry/How much of that space is commercial? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 42 Monson/ Okay, um we have a piece here, a second piece here. This is the parking office and command center for the ramp and this is part of the Linn Street facade. Thornberry/Right so we okay. Norton/And then that first sheet there... Thornberry/And then the other street not Linn Street but the other one has got some commercial too... Vanderhoef/ The bottom picture. Thornberry/Yes. Monson/ Here is the Iowa Ave. facade on Gilbert Street and then this is the Linn Street and this is actually another level above this plus potential for a mezzanine. Thornberry/Right. And there's an entrance over on Gilbert Street, right? Monson/ Yes. Right in the center. Thornberry/I'm loosing my allure for this facility with all this commercial. I thought we were building a parking facility not a commercial facility. Kubby/This has been part... (All talking) Thornberry/I understand that, I understand .... Kubby/But it's just kind of sinking in how much Thornberry/You know and there's other places available. Ah looks like we're going into competition here again. Champion/ Thornberry/ (All talking) No, we're filling it we're not going into competition... No what I mean is ... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 43 Thornberry/...there's other places downtown that might be available for sale also and we aren't going into competition for retail space downtown. Norton/Well that's... Vanderhoef/ Okay, Kevin (All talking) Thornberry/I understand that. I bought the Iowa theater. There are other places for sale downtown. Are we going into competition with those others that are for sale? Are we building something for sale that somebody else is also trying to sell commercial space... (All talking) Thornberry/I don't know, I don't know, it's a question. Lehman/ I think that they may have some validity fight now but I also hope this is a structure that's gonna be here for a hundred years that's I think obviously ... Thornberry/I hope the rest of downtown is too... Lehman/ Oh, I do too but I don't think that we're gonna, ah you know, that I think that the present situation downtown, there is obviously some spaces available not as many as you might think, but I don't think you scrap this on a short term basis because... Thornberry/...don't mean. I'm asking a question. I'm not talking about scrapping the facility. I'm just saying, are we building retail space for sale? Norton/It's pretty heavy duty, there's no doubt about it... Thornberry/...I don't like it. I don't like the city taking taxpayers' money basically to build a facility to sell. Norton/Why does that come up now though Dean? Thornberry/ Norton/I'm just curious... Thornberry/... I don't know. I've been thinking about it and there's a couple of This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 44 buildings for sale downtown... Norton/But there were then, it was predictable then, that this would be in some kind of competition with other... Thornberry/ Norton/...and I understand that that's an issue we should have in some sense dealt with that issue earlier... Thornberry/...I'm bringing a question I've got... Norton/ Kubby/...cause it's so ironic cause even though I'm against this, that's the saving grace for this facility that it is multi-purpose. That is might help make some competition so that prices might go down and downtown might be full. So that there, even though there is community dollars involved, which we will recoup back, um, plus putting it back on the tax roles, which is another community advantage, but we' 11 also have the community advantages if that happens - spurting the spaces downtown are fuller quicker. Which is good for everybody. Thornberry/I don't know how putting more on the market would fill... Norton/ Kubby/When you have more demand, when you have more supply, prices go down. Thornberry/I understand that. In understand supply and demand. I'm just saying there is supply right now. Norton/If that were the case, in other words, I'd suggest putting more of it in the Senior Center, then you wouldn't be putting it on the public ah... Thornberry/ Laughter Norton/ I can't win there. Thornberry/...parking facility for a whole and it seems like it's just being eroded by everything else other than parking. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 45 Lehman/ Except Dean, this isn't going to be done for o if everything goes according to plan probably for the better part of two years two years from now, 1, there may be a totally different situation downtown where it comes to available for commercial space. Champion/Downtown always fluctuates... I mean it ... what's different about this if you wanted actually to buy a business could almost dictate the amount of square footage you want. Where a lot of them, when a downtown building comes up you may have to be a landlord. You're gonna have apartments downstairs, upstairs you mean have more space on the first floor than you need and there isn't always an option for small business to buy a downtown building if they don't want to be a landlord and all the stuff that goes with it. So, I think it's a plus, I mean I think it's a real plus. I don't want to be a landlord. I don't want to buy downtown, go into apartments upstairs ... Thornberry/No. We're building, ah we're building ah space for sale. Champion/ Right. Norton/What is the reaction of ... Thornberry/ Champion/ ...to the whole thing. It fits into the whole thing we're doing here. (Inaudible) Norton/What's the reaction? Have we had any serious discussion of this with the downtown business community that would in some sense find us competing phase? Champion/ I think... Thornberry/I don't know. I don't think we've ever approached the downtown community ... (All talking) Vanderhoef/ I think they would approach us if they were real concerned about it. Champion/ ... display a parking ramp without the... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 46 Lehman/ No, but I think Dee is exactly fight if there was a very strong concern among the people downtown, I think we'd have heard from um along time ago relative to the commercial part of this. Or the Chamber or the DTA or somebody... Thornberry/I'm not arguing ... (All talking) Thornberry/damnit. I'm just bringing it up. Norton/I understand that Dean, but I'm trying to figure out what exactly to do about it. Whether to reassure ourselves by talking with that community that might see this as a negative, or would they want to see it as positive? I don't know, maybe that would be one way to talk it over and help ease your conscience. Conceivably, we could also go back to the drawing board (All talking) Norton/... well then we've got to do something the only thing I can think of it to talk to people... (All talking) Lehman/ No, we're past that point we've talked about this before we ever decided to voted to design this building. We said we realized that if we vote to spend the money to design this building this is a done deal. And we voted on it .... And I don't think and I share some of your concerns, the DTA by the way endorsed the project. The Downtown Merchants Association, they think it's a tremendous thing for the downtown. Ah I hear some of what Dean's saying and I and I have to think to think in the total scheme of things that we made the right decision. When we decided to design the building. Thornberry/I hope so. Kubby/I have three other question about different topic? One is you know we've been experiencing this current market in our bids and does this ten-seven reflect this market or should we expect to see bids Come in over this?. Monson/ That's a real hard question to answer because, ah every building has a different component this is a very intense concrete project. Ah, we have contractors in Iowa City that are very good at doing that kind of work. Ah, whether their plate is full yet or not, ah is the unknown question ah we do have as, ah mentioned earlier a 5% contingency and I would expect that we're gonna This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 47 spend a lot of that because of the biding climate because the amount of work that we current going on in Iowa City and ah there's just a lot of construction going on as you all know ah and so I would guess we would be spending every bit of that contingency and hopefully we won't have to go further but that's a big unknown. It's very difficult to estimate... Kubby/...I think we need to be very up front that these numbers are going to come in higher that the estimates, because every big project that we've done for the last six months has come in, you know a double digit percentage sometimes they are. Atkins/And I, just to prepare you we have two other projects do in shortly. Foster Road and the Iowa River Power Dam and we may... Lehman/ I think we have to deal with that when it comes back to much... Kubby/Right, but I mean at some point when do we revise our estimate to reflect reality so that we don't, it just doesn't look that good ... and it sets ourselves up for some negative criticism which may be deserving. Atkins/Well, I think on Wednesday, when you talked about some of these things I had not shared this with, Kevin, if you begin to push up that estimate I'm gonna get real nervous. Kubby/Well yeah, it effects a whole bunch of other stuff... Atkins/Particularly comes to the bond financing because, we again we're trying to hold this thing by postponing parking rate increases and... Norton/Well, now we turn one down, drop one from the... for being too high for instance we're gonna have to go back and figure out what to do about that one. Monson/ ... I think... Norton/I hope it's not just a matter of adjusting the estimates because someone's gonna have to be adjusting the reality Norton/Right, but when we adjust the estimates we have to adjust our financial plan. So, having the estimate that we base our financial plan on this... Monson/ Our financial plan, again I'll be candid with you, financial plan for this project is not final until You make the seniors center decision ....So, you can't tell me that we' 11... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 48 Kubby/Second question... Atkins/Kevin's done what he's suppose to do. I'm okay with Kevin's estimate, that it's just that we haven't wrapped this up yet. Kubby/Well, I know that we've been wanting for years to put lights on the current ramps we have downtown that tell us they're full or not. lt's been a challenge. Will this ramp have lights on it so that when it is full that there will be indicators externally? Mortson/ Ah, part of the signage package - I'm gonna have to research that signage package I'm not sure Karen. I'll have to get back to you on that. Kubby/Could you check on that? Cause I know that all the university ramps have um and it's really helpful for people. Monson/ Right. Norton/We were talking about that ... Joe? Weren't we? Vanderhoef/ They just put ah sign on the .. Fowler/Yeah, all of that we have now have a full sign. That's the location. It's, they have to pull inside... Kubby/Do you have to get a ticket to see it? Fowler/No. Laughter ... (All talking) Fowler/And what we designed have so far, doesn't have anything on the exterior, but we can work with Kevin to go ahead... Kubby/Yeah, except the time to do is now, when it's not build and then we can do wiring where we need and have it be as esthetically compatible as possible for the external... Norton/Joe, I thought we even talked one time about having them substantially away from the down, from the building itself. That is, when you approach the hospital ramps and of course they're all pulled together tells you which ones are full, This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 49 right? I don't know whether that's the case here because there are too many approaches. I suppose we can't do that. In other words on Burlington Street or on Dubuque Street you can't tell um right then what's happening in the various ramps. Champion/No, but we could have a sign externally so that before you get in... Norton/That's what I mean, certainly on the facade or somewhere. Champion/That wouldn't be that expensive. Fowler/We could do that will a small exterior that's not real ,really sticking out... Kubby/I really want it to flow with the building... Monson/ 1 want to go back to answer the previous question a little bit more, Karen. We have talked with the local contractors and have kept them abreast of the project, ah over the last year and have actually asked them for budget numbers so these aren't just something that we're pulling out of a book or pulling out of some national average. These are numbers that we have verified with the local contractors and ah, we're hoping that those numbers they're giving us are realistic. Of course, we've been asking them and updating them as we've gone through the process and just recently we've updated them again, ah, in ah the last sixty days we've updated them once more. So, we're hoping that they have given us what they really felt were good numbers to begin with, because we really rely on those numbers. Kubby/I didn't realize there was that kind of regular update to that. Monson/ Well we certainly... Kubby/ Monsord Right. Exactly, and of course we have as you get closer to the date we find our contingencies as we start out there's a lot of unknowns so we have a higher contingency as we go through the different steps of our design we can reduce that contingency because there's no more finite known items and so hopefully some of the wishy washy goes away and it's more fine tuned. /Okay Champion/ Did you look at um that cement brick that I read in the paper about putting on the street bridge this has got a brick facade right? Over the... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 50 Monson/ Yes. Champion/ Did you look at that brick that cake brick? ... (All talking) Monson/ It's actually stone. We designed that for the Summit Street bridge as part of that package. It's actually concrete, ah of with a stone like form being used and then they come back and stain the individual stone like a ah with different stains to give it the stone look. We felt that was appropriate for Summit Street because that's a very old neighborhood. That, typically that's not something that you would do in a building in Iowa City. The buildings in Iowa City were either limestone and predominately brick and so hence we've got the materials for this structure are limestone and brick again very much in keeping with the downtown of Iowa City was all about. Norton/What's the internal ... we decided to direct this to Jeff?. Is this ah, hands off facility or is this a booth? (All talking) Fowler/There's three cashier booths at the exit Norton/ Fowler/Cashier booths. Monson/ Lehman/ It will be manned rather Kubby/ Lehman/ It'll be staffed. Sorry. Vanderhoef/ Is there any possibility of having a card enter/exit kind of thing for our permit owners? (All talking) This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 51 Fowler/Yeah, there's permit cards built right into the equipment. There would be two at the entrances. Each entrance would have a card and the far right exit would have one. Lehman/ Karen. Kubby/I have one last one and that is who'll be responsible for the maintenance of the Ecumenical Towers parking area, will they own that and they will be responsible? Dilkes/Those are part of our negotiations with Ecumenical. We can talk about that tomorrow night. Kubby/Thank You, help remind me Eleanor if you would make a little note there. Lehman/ Other questions? Thank you. All fight, we're gonna take a quick break. Angle parking on Clinton Street 99-50 S2 Lehman/ Angle parking on Clinton Street. Davidson/You have the memo from Joe and I and this lovely drawing that I prepared this aflernoon. We can refer to if need be. (All talking) Davidson/Yeah, it's a scale drawing - I went out and surveyed that this afternoon. Lehman/ Better have a big contingency on this one. Davidson/Ah, yeah obviously we're at the stage right now where it's just sort of broad scale. Ah, lets discuss some of the issues of this and give us some general guidance as to what you want to do and we take it to the next step if you're interested in going ahead forward. Ah, you know we've discussed this a couple times in the past and I think been fairly well at least stronger than we are being now about discouraging you from doing this. And I think the difference now is that we have the streetscape projects next year and that enables us it's gonna be all tore up anyway that enables us to do somethings just dimensionally that make Joe and I a lot more comfortable about doing it than we would have been otherwise. So that's why I think we've gone from really discouraging you from doing it to simply saying, listen there are some impacts here if you do this and be aware of those. Be aware that you're gorma be changing the character of this area and some of that change in character may be things you want to do. Um, This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 52 depending on who you talk to there are people that think traffic is too fast on Clinton Street right now. Putting in angle parking will slow cars down. Now, that will also especially at certain times of day create more congested situations and we accept more congestion on downtown streets. That's part of the downtown. So, what you're doing, what you would be doing, is not necessarily wrong, it's different and we want you to understand that it will be different. Now the other thing that Joe and I have done, you know, we could made this fourteen pages long and discussed every possible ramification in every possible way of doing this and what we presented to you is pretty much the maximum the most that you could do angle parking on both sides of the street. And there are other things in lieu of that, not going to that extent, that can be done as well, and lets discuss some of those if you're interested. One that I think is real obvious is, only doing it on one side of the street. Ah there are some pretty serious reductions in downtown sidewalk widths if you are to do it on both sides of the street. Eighteen feet off each side leave you with the ten- foot sidewalk. And that's pretty narrow, not for all times of the day not for all times of the day, but for certain times of the day it is. If you were to do it on one side of the street, it would only be nine feet. And, ah these loading zone bays that are there right now are eight foot wide. So, to give you an idea of what we would be doing would be establishing a new curb line one-foot further than those going to the curb right now. Okay. So that's an option if you're interested that we could do especially in the downtown area would only be angle parking on one side. Of course you'll create fewer parking spaces but you would be creating a substantial amount of parking spaces because there is very little parallel parking, ah between Washington Street and Burlington Street right now. Lehman/ Jeff, if we were to tell ya that we have some interest and we think we have some interest in maybe a couple different options, how much work is involved in coming... Davidson/ Lehman/ I don't want, something a little more detailed than this but not something you can Davidson/ Lehman/ I don't want you to go to a ton of work but I there are options like one side both sides. Ah, I would hate to see us lose the trees that we have. You know, they have to be able to incorporate them into the angle parking or I don't want another lowa Ave. parking lot on Clinton Street. I mean, those trees are beautiful. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 53 Davidson/And we certainly... Lehman/ timing is perfect because of what we're doing on the street and also the new owners of the Old Capitol Center would consider this certainly being a friendly move on the part of the city. Davidson/Yeah, we would take a look at the mature trees, the ones that are too large to be relocated and simply instruct the designer that those stay. Every so often we have a tree island and the tree stays. Before we get I guess some options from you before we go into the work of designing and showing which tree stays and which tree goes just some options as to how it would look. For example, if you say if we put it on one side we will take one foot off the other side sidewalk, which still leaves us seventeen foot which is a pretty good sidewalk. Davidson/Nineteen foot actually. Norton/Are you talking only now, lets Washington to Burlington for the moment? Cause every block has totally unique elements. Davidson/Yes it is. Norton/So that you have to talk about Washington to Burlington first, two blocks there I guess you'd say, Washington to Burlington, if even from actually it's from Washington to College because then you run into the ramp entrance. /Right. Davidson/Yeah, you might want to consider looking at Burlington to Iowa because that is where the streetscape redo will be occurring. Kubby/Actually maybe a question to be asked before any of this art, are these disadvantages of less sidewalk less safe on the materials and trees and other things, is it worth doing that when we're spending millions of dollars on the new parking ramp which is within three blocks of this area. Plus we have two other ramps where people may shift which ramp they go to free up spaces in the ramps that are... Champion/ Norton/There's two options that look really plausible to me. One is to accommodate them all by doing angle parking on that west side only from Iowa, from Washington down to College or as far as you can go until you come to the ramp. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 54 That seems to me to gain some, don't mess with the other side at all. You've got the trees, right? (All talking) Lehman/ You could leave some of the trees on the on the old Capital side too Norton/ Lehman/ I hate to see those come down... Norton/Whatever you can do, and then the other thing would be to angle parking on the east side between Washington and ah Iowa. Those two see you don't want to mess with that bus side anyhow, fight? Champion/I'm not gonna take any of the trees out of there. Norton/No. Vanderhoef/ I won't go that far but not to ... (All talking) Norton/I'm thinking about not just parking but it seems to me that might not even be unreasonable. Those are two place where access is a little bit... Lehman/ ... and I think the other thing is there is a perception which sometimes is as just as real as reality, but there's a perception that there is no parking. And if there is parking and it's full I think people are far more inclined to go into a ramp with a little more little less discomfort than if there no parking to start with, at least they can drive past see the spaces are full and pull into the ramp. I just have no problem with that I think it does give folks the at least the perceived idea that they can park in front of the store. Atkins/Emie? Lehman/ Yes. Atkins/Joe may want to comment on that. In our conversations with Madison, ah the perspective tenants particularly to the Penny's Building. They have shared with us is that the type of folks they're marketing they would like to make sure they have some space available that allows a person to pull up go in come back out hop in the car and not go through the parking garage process. I'm sure that's what's This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 55 motivating them. Secondly Connie, when it comes to the trees ah I certainly appreciate what you're saying because we hear a lot about it, but we also get loads of complaints on that side of the street that's sort of birds alley, (All talking) Kubby/ Atkins/One of the things that Joe had spoken with Terry was that it might not be putting trees there we think is an important feature, it may be just the species of the tree. Vanderhoef/ And so we can replace trees however it looks along there so we might remove some and we might add ... Norton/But the tree is not, the extends out from the curb, is not incompatible with angle parking it's just separates, no that's not an issue. (All talking) Davidson/To try and answer, Mike I believe it was you that asked the question? Right now in front of the mall you have three of the bays like this that two vehicles can fit into so that you have six spaces and in the ten blocks south the Airliner block um or the Iowa Book and Supply block ah you have five metered .... (All talking) Davidson/You could probably just, using averages that we have get about 51 angle spaces... (All talking) Lehman/ On one side? Davidson/On one side only. (All talking) Lehman/ Oh that makes a lot of sense. Davidson/So, you know because we don't have a lot of parallel parking in those 3 block the increase is actually pretty extensive. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 56 Kubby/ Well, I would argue that Clinton Street is an entrance way into downtown and that I prefer to have more people space and more trees and more street furniture so that more things can happen on the street level than to have to have your view when you come into downtown be angle parking and cars... (All talking) Kubby/ ... even broken up with some trees that are kept, urn, I mean that part of our downtown vision statement is making sure that it is multi-modal and we've decreased some of that safety factor with the angle parking on the streets that we've done that, bicyclist do not like that. We're improving it on Iowa Ave. when we finally do it because Iowa Ave. is one of the only legal way to go up and down, to go east and west downtown without using Burlington. But it's got people coming out on both sides if you do Clinton street you're gonna create that safety issue for pedestrians as well as for bicyclist and so we're spending all these resources on parking, I think that we should not add more and if we're gonna spend more money on transportation for downtown, it should be used for other modes. Lehman/ Well, the cost for doing the parking is reasonably inexpensive, but if we did one side you're basically talking about how much narrower sidewalks? Davidson/Well, a total of nine feet between the two sets of 4 ½ feet on each side. Lehman/ Okay, but and the other thing I noticed on this on that two block area, that is probably the fastest moving traffic of any two block area downtown. I mean cars are just, it's incredible how fast they move through there and as far as I'm concerned if angle parking will slow those cars down I'd love it. Kubby/ As long as you're willing to accept more back-end fender benders. Lehman/ I'm willing to accept that I just think ... (All talking) Vanderhoef/ I think the perception for ... Davidson/Well you're increasing the probability is the way we like to put it, you know, the probability of an accident occurring because vehicles are slowed down. It will be more of your fender bender type, um, collision. We're not aware that the three blocks we did last year created any big problems. I'd be a little more uncomfortable proposing this if I thought speeds would remain what they are now on Clinton Street. But I can tell you certainly they will decrease and with that This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 57 you have a safer situation, cause people have time to react cause they're going at a slower speed. Norton/ But how does it differ, the total people now parallel parking in the ten block... ? Davidson/ Norton/ ...they have to back up and jockey into the place so they're using some space Davidson/Okay, but the difference is that you're backing towards the curb as opposed to out into the traffic. Norton/ Okay, but what's the difference in the total space required for the parallel parking and the person jockeying to get into a space and the person backing promptly out of an angle space, perhaps a little slighter slope than - than just to have a steeper sloop we might loose some places since we're' not basically trying to add a whole slew of parking but making it convenient for people to access the mall over a brief maybe... Davidson/Yeah, I mean the simplest way to understand it is that parallel parking has a lower accident rate. Period. I mean that's why as I said in the memo, in the 60's that's why everybody, downtowns all over the country converted from angle parking to parallel - was to try and reduce their accident rates, um and you know there's been some other trade-offs of increased speed and that sort of thing and that's why a lot of places are going back to angle spaces. Lel-unan/Do we I'm sorry go ahead... Kubby/Is there a way to speckle angle parking with parallel parking as a way to balancing some of those values? Davidson/Um, the thing we like to see - keep some consistency Karen from block to block. So that more for the motorist traveling along the street, that there's an expectation this either a parallel block or on one side of the street angle on the other rather than intermixing them like that. Kubby/ Ifthere's a majority of people who want to look at parallel with the angle parking on Clinton Street when you come back to us, will you address room in the travel lane for bicyclists. Davidson/Um hum. As you know though, Karen, it will be tighter in the blocks that we did last year, we did receive some complaints. I will they've tapered off. We This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 58 had some initially - haven't had any recently, but it's tighter, its more congested and this would be the same way. Thornberry/Looking at Linn Street, the first block off of Burlington, is angle parking the next block is parallel parking. Have you noticed any additional, um accidents in the first block verses the second block? Davidson/Not - I don't know Doug, we haven't really looked at the accident rates, have we? Cause it's only been a year. But I don't think there's been anything significant being that we've taken note of. Lehman/Are there, I'm sorry... O'Donnell/ Well I just think it's a way to... Champion/ I'm willing to look at it Lehman/ Well, I was just going to say, are there four people who would like you, like him, to come with some rough scenarios of how it would happen? The number of spaces, uh and I think we really would like to know, I would like to know at least, how many trees we're taking about having to remove cause I really don't like that. DavidsoW Now, answer a question for me. Are you comfortable waiting until we begin the design of the phase three of the downtown streetscape? So, are we doing it as an element of that or do you want us to hire a special designer ahead of time? (All talking) Lehman/ I think that we need, I think I would like to have you, give us a very rough scenario like this with the parking on one side show us how wide the streets are, how wide the sidewalks are, I'm sorry, ah where the loading zones would happen to be. And again, I don't think it has to be drawn any better than that. Give us an idea... Davidson/Okay, so you want something prior to us doing... (All talking) Lehman/ Well, I would hate to see you design it all and then have us come back and say we don't like it and have you spend all that money... O'Donnell/I can't imagine that Ernie, if it's a net gain of 51 parking spots. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 59 Lehman/ I can't either, but I would like to see something just scratched out. Kubby/ Is that not the only value we... ? Norton/...that's about the only one fight (All talking) O'Donnell/But we need to provide parking for all the wonderful assets that you just mentioned... (All talking) Kubby/ ...we have six hundred new spaces .... Letunan/ Is that a problem? A big uh is there a lot of advantage... Davidson/ As long as your comfortable receiving something from staff that doesn't look like an architecture... (All talking) Lehman/ ...no, that's what I'm saying don't go to a lot of effort give the concept... Vanderhoef/ ...give us the measurements... Davidson/We'll try to do something midway between actually designing it and... (All talking) Lehman/ Well, because I think we can look at that and then say this is a good idea or no it's not a good idea... Davidson/Okay, that's fine uh anything north of Iowa Ave. you want to talk about or should we just address these three block initially? Vanderhoef/ I want to talk about on up to church street. Davidson/Okay. Vanderhoef/... from Market to and up going all the way first, since we're going to start metering up by the dorms and... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 60 Norton/ I didn't see how you could do much noah of Jefferson... Lehman/ Didn't sound like it Vanderhoef/ Well, is it still possible to still do it on one side? Davidson/During move in and move out periods of the residents halls, now there, university is essentially permitted to doing angle parking up there and well you're gonna have one here in another week or ten days. You really ought to go up and witness it. I mean, it's extremely congested for just a very shoa duration. Ah, but what you'd be doing is making that more of a permanent type situation and ah. we have some questions, Dee, about, with all the pedestrian movements and the transit vehicles and the big trucks... Vanderhoef/ The trucks are... Davidson/... for the gain of fourteen spaces, uh the university is not clamoring for it, you know just didn't seem to be a lot of compelling reasons to do it in that area. Vanderhoef/ For fourteen spaces? Davidson/For fouaeen spaces. Yeah. Norton/Or even in the block noah, anything noah of Jefferson, just struck me as pretty heavy duty uh ... Lehman/ Well, I think it's your report and obviously your conversations with the university indicate that that area, ah, Noah of Market probably was not nearly as viable as the area south. Is that fight? Davidson/That was our conclusion. Vanderhoef/How much narrower is that street up there? Davidson/Um, Doug, do you recall when you were up there measuring ? Ripley/Total street width? Davidson/Yeah. Ripley/I think the total street wide is 51 feet. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 61 Davidson/And how does that compare to downtown do you recall? Ripley/It's actually a little bit wider? Davidson/It's actually a little bit wider? Okay. Ripley/ I believe. /I don't think so Vanderhoef/ I thought it was wider and what I got out of the memo was that it narrowed down after you got ah... Davidson/Yeah it goes from four lanes to two lanes at ah, Jefferson Street...but obviously the two lanes are wider than each individual lane is further south of there. We can check that out and tell you more definitively but... Vanderhoef/ I think the students would appreciate as many spaces as possible and we... Davidson/Well they're gonna get that Dee, they're gonna get that even out of the parallel plan that we have up there that Joe's folks are gonna be implementing here shortly because there are a lot of people who pull in at six o'clock in the morning because they have a six to three shift and they're parked there all day and what the meters will do is create more short term parking in the area. It will require you to put the money in the meter, but it'll create some short term parking where there really isn't much right now, so I think I think students will really be the ones who really benefit in that area. Vanderhoef/ Well, that's what I would hope for then that is not suppose to be... Davidson/and the residents the residents in the area... Norton/ I think I'm gonna be willing to forget Karen's point because we're building a big ramp to try to get some of the parking off I'd hate to create Clinton Street to look like Iowa but I think if we do it very carefully it might be some means to the marketing that mall effectively and ah... /I think that's a tremendous benefit. Norton/That not to be ignored we gotta do something to help out. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 62 Vanderhoef/ I've seen islands like what we have on Iowa Ave. right now, with the trees intermingle that break up the looks of it and make it very attractive and say keep a lot of the center parking available and not look like a parking lot. Norton/ Yeah, well, I would say if you could keep some trees there it, cause we're not trying primarily to gain parking here. In my judgment, we're building 600 car garage, we've got three of um, so it's not really to gain parking particularly as to gain some immediate access for certain kinds of businesses that now don't have it. Lehman/More convenient parking, short term. Norton/ And that an important thing. I was think of the Bread Garden and those people trying to stop to run in and get a loaf of bread, there's no where to go believe me. Lehman/ Well, I think you heard we'd like you to do some preliminary work or just give us some concept and I think as long as you're doing it you probably ought to go with it all the way up to Jefferson Street. Davidson/You want us to go all the way Jefferson Street? Lehman/I don't know that we're going to do that at all but... Davidson/Okay, so that block in from of Phillips Hall and the Congregational Church as well? (All talking) Kubby/Dean, what, you where go~ma say something? Thornberry/I just don't think that the parallel parking on one side of Clinton Street would make it look close to... (All talking) Norton/Angle on one side... (All talking) Thornberry/Leave the trees, leave the little tree islands there and stuff like that... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 63 Norton/There's one side here and the other side there it I don't think it would be so ugly and it would improve the accessibility. Thornberry/Go for it. (All talking) Davidson/We'll ah, we'll do some more research and then we'll have Kay Irelan maybe draw something that looks nice for us to show ya. (All talking) /Don't even have to look real nice Davidson/This nice? Vanderhoef/ ...on line paper you can do that... Thornberry/Maybe put a little dot in where the trees are... /Put green for trees /Use magic marker Norton/I think we can have him take an art course of an evening... (All talking) Goosetown Traffic Calming 99-51 S1 Lehman/Okay. Goosetown Traffic Calming, Doug. Ripley/Well, as hopefully most of you are aware we've been working with the Goosetown neighborhood for about the last eighteen months or so, ah give or take a month or two, regarding traffic concerns that they've had throughout their neighborhood. The initial complaint or the primary concern was Bloomington Street with the volume of traffic going through there and speeds were also an issue. Ah, we did some traffic studies and verified the volume or the volume problem on Bloomington Street, but we did not verify any of the speed concerns. Ah, at that time, I'll just kind of give you some kind of brief history. Ah, at that time, we worked with the neighborhood and developed a concept that would address the cut through traffic concerns that they were having on Bloomington Street and in fact in the entire neighborhood. After This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 64 doing some internal review from a staff perspective, we determined that that was not a good alternative from a service delivery, emergency response, um those types of issues. It was not a good proposal and recommended to you not to do that and instead to concentrate on extending the arterial street system, ah primarily First Ave., to help reduce that cut through traffic. At that time, you directed us to continue to work with the neighborhood to see if we could come up with an alternative proposal that would help address some of their concerns in the interim or in lie of ah, an arterial street connection. Went through that process last fall. I gave them, ah them or the neighborhood or a group representing the neighborhood there were only four or five people at that meeting, but a number of options. A few of you folks were at that meeting also where I handed them or gave them a list of different options for them to look at, to think about. They selected a combination of, um which I can get up here. That included primarily addressing the problem on Bloomington Street and then adding the traffic circles at the other intersections to help prevent traffic from Bloomington Street being diverted onto other routes cutting through, ah um taking a different route 1 guess. We didn't want to move the problem around within the same neighborhood. It also included doing a turn restriction at Union Place, which is right there, and also doing changes with the calendar parking system of putting parking on both sides to help address any speed concerns that the neighborhood had. Sent out this survey this Spring. Sent out 259 surveys to the entire area which included Market, ah Governor on the west, the church or excuse me the cemetery and the park on the north and east. Of those 259. 136 of them were returned which is a 53% response rate. And of those 136, 75 were in favor of the proposal and 57 were opposed which is 55% in favor - 42% opposed and 4% err excuse me, 4 surveys, which is 3% were undecided. They returned the survey, but they not have a decision one way or the other, um, just to highlight the survey I also included that in your packet, but the police department, ah just to give you some feedback as to what their thoughts were they had some concerns with it but they were not opposed to trying it. The streets department ah anticipates that there will be a reduction in services at least initially snow removal street sweeping that sort of thing, which is typical with any of these type of devices. The fire department is opposed to this and the transit department does not have a route that runs through the neighborhood, ah it would affect them if they had to divert buses for one reason or the other, but they don't specifically have a route going through here. Ah, the project, if you approve it or would like continue with it, could be installed this summer, probably later this summer before we could get it designed and installed. It would cost approximately $47,000 and that's a very rough estimate based on some other communities costs that I was able to get from them. The current traffic calming budget has about $29,000 in it which the College and Highland Street projects will consume which will be installed within the next few weeks. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 65 At, excuse me, July 1, the fiscal year, there's an additional $25,000 budgeted which could go toward this project. Um, at this time, you know, we've gone through the process and would like to see if you have any questions. We would like to move forward with the project. Kubby/Could you outline a little the police and fire departments' objections? Is it all the elements or certain elements? Ripley/Well, the fire department is opposed to it less on specific items of the project more as a fundamental, ah, the fire department gets to where they need to go as fast as they possibly can, that's their basis that's what they do and this slows them down so that's were their opposition lies. Kubby/Okay, I mean, so that really means that they would be a little opposed to any traffic calming that reduced speed. Ripley/The Chief is not here but I would make that assumption, yes. Based on our conversations with him. There are some things that affect them more and less, but they would most likely be opposed to any project. Champion/How to those fire trucks get around those traffic circles? /Run over um Ripley/What we did on the College Street and Summit intersection in the Washington St. area was, I went up a marked it off a preliminary design, went up with some cones and some paint and we took the ladder truck up there. I met the fire department up there and we physically drove it around the marking to make sure that they could get it through. Ah, that was and we did it on the Highland Ave. also just to, so we would know ahead of time whether or not they would be able, and we did make some modifications to it in order to suit the fire apparatus. Champion/Tell me what it's gonna look like. Ripley/They're gonna be round. Laughter Kubby/Are they gonna have yellow curbs and black asphalt centers? Like the downtown ones? Ripley/The ones that we're having on College Street that are designed will have a black asphalt curb. It'll be about three feet wide and the internal part will be cut out and This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 66 filled with dirt and the neighborhood will then be responsible for putting some plantings in there within some certain guidelines. There'll be some signs within... Lehman/How deep? Ripley/How deep is the dirt or how deep are the plantings? Lehman/How deep is the dirt? Ripley/Well, we're cutting the road out in the middle. Lehman/You are? Ripley/Yes, in order to provide drainage. Lehman/That's not very temporary is it? Ripley/Well, that's the recommendation of the city engineer that they, that is what they do when they do sewer projects, that's what they do when they do any water main extensions is they cut the road out and patch it back up. Ah, that was his preference in doing that for drainage it's ... O'Donnell/How many people live in the area? Ripley/Well, there are 259 residences that we surveyed and that included the entire area. O'Donnell/How many responded? Ripley/About 53% I think 136. 136 were returned which is 53%. O'Donnell/I rather see more people respond. Norton/Well you can't. O'Donnell/I'd also like to see how it works on College. Norton/I took three streets, four streets there that arc gonna have to deal with the circles primarily would be Church and Ronald and ah, Church, Reno, Davenport and Fairchild, I think, are people that are really have to deal with the circle leaving out Bloomington for a minute. And among that group there were 79 responses and sixty plus was 48 were in favor and 30 opposed so that of the streets who had to deal with circles primarily as distinct from the chokers, ah I need the map This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 67 actually. I was trying to leave out some of the people that are further up. You see, if you look at Church, Fairchild, Davenport and Reno would all have to run those circles. Bloomington Street is not affected by the circles primarily. They're going somewhere else. So, I thought some 60% was pretty fair when you talk about a bond issue or something you're lucky to get sixty percent, so that made me think the circles were flawed but then I looked at Bloomington Street itself are the people who have to deal with the chokers the largest part aren't they? Ripley/Yes, well they they're only on Bloomington Street. Norton/...and the aspect of the street and the speeds. They deal with it both, living with it and hoping it does some good. There was 56% in favor, just on Bloomington Street, so, of those who responded. So, I hardly know what to do .... decent majority... (All talking) Lehman/Well you know, I think there's, if you look at the comments of those folks who favored doing something, I don't see that there was a lot of real enthusiasm for what we gmma do anyway. You know, it wasn't enough or this is better than nothing or whatever. This is very very close to 50/50. You are also looking a pretty hefty expense $47,0007 Norton/ Ripley/Forty-seven and that's an estimated expense. Vanderhoef/ ...for temporary. To say nothing of what it would be when it comes in. Kubby/ Well, there will some percentage of that original cost that if after a year the neighborhood wants to continue with this, that I assume could be reuse so to speak... Ripley/ If they were to be replaced with concrete, they would probably be removed completely. Lehman/ Kubby/...I mean, the cutting of the road... Ripley/ The expense of cutting it would still be - assuming they followed the same design... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Kubby/ Ripley/ Kubby/ Ripley/ Council Work Session ...percent of the cost? Is that 20% of the cost? The cutting of the road is a very small part. It's the materials... Page 68 ...materials and labor. O'Donnell/ I would like to see another survey on that, but I'd like to see more people than 53 %. (All talking) Norton/...can't do it...I'm tired of it. They got a shot. Kubby/...okay, those people who voted for the Tower Court stuff, part of the argument was we have this traffic calming process... O'Donnell/ Kubby/...the community went through, but the process says a majority and do it and it's not a safety issue and it's not on the arterial, but we do it. O'Donnell/ We're talking the safety issue. The fire department... Kubby/But they're on every traffic calming one they don't want us to do it, okay... O'Donnell/...I'm not. I want to hear from the fire department. You know they are saying this may be a safety issue .... Vanderhoef/ ...response time... Norton/...it can't affect their ... Vanderhoef/ Doug? Ripley/ Yes? Vanderhoef/ Did the fire department give anything in terms of response time in their evaluation of... Ripley/ Not on this proposal. I was looking, I was flipping through because they did provide quite a detailed analysis of it. The summation of it is that they were This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 69 Norton/ opposed to it, because of the impact on what their core purpose is, which is to get where they need to be as fast as they can and this affects that... It's also the competition with the ambulance, probably they want to be there first. (All talking) Lehman/ Ripley/ Lehman/ Ripley/ Lehman/ Ripley/ Lehman/ Ripley/ ..and of course you've got the police out chasing both of them. $47,000 is the estimate for temporary? That's correct. All right, what would be the estimate for permanent? Give us a guess. It would be probably be just slightly higher because you'd be trading asphalt for concrete and the labor would be close to the same. If I'm not mistaken, since we first started talking about this, that the biggest difficulty, the biggest problem associated with this is the fact that people have to cut through there and once First Ave. or Scott Blvd. is accomplished that this problem may kind of cure itself. It's anticipated that with First Ave. much of the traffic that's cutting through will no longer... Lehman/That's a $100,000 to spend for something for a couple of years. I guess I don't, I don't see the point. Vanderhoef/ And were trading one safety issue for another safety issue. Davidson/Yeah, I just wanted to add to or this to clarify about the temporary... Lehman/Yeah Davidson/,,,so called temporary. You'll recall that with Teg Drive our temporary has turned into permanent. Lehman/Yes, it works very well. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 70 Davidson/When these things go in initially there kind of garish looking because the asphalt is very black against the gray concrete. But they eventually gray down to where they are about the same shade and if they hold up, we would likely use them for much longer than that initial one year evaluation period. They might be there several years after that. So its ... Kubby/And it would be when they needed to be repaired that they would be replaced with permanent... Davidson/After that one year assessment it might be decided to take them out, in which case, yeah, we spent $47,000 for one year. But if it was decided to keep them in, I think the prospect that they could be there much longer is something that's probably true. Thornberry/ While I was trying to turn my picture around this might have been asked. This is these chokers are to eliminate more traffic, its not the speed they're concerned about, on Bloomington Street for example, it's the amount of traffic is that correct? Ripley/The speed on Bloomington was not documented. It was voiced as a concern. When we did our traffic studies it wasn't documented the... Thornberry/Aren't there, isn't there parking on both sides of Bloomington St.? Ripley/ Currently it's a calendar parking system so after 5 P.M. it is but Monday through Saturday its only on one side during the day. The chokers are typically used as a speed issue, to address speed concerns. Thornberry/ But I didn't think that they were so concerned about the speed as they were with the amount of traffic I think... Ripley/ And, and that is correct. The approach that we've taken here, in working with the neighborhood, is to if we could slow them down the reason they are using the neighborhood is because it is a faster way of getting through. If we could then slow them down that would result in reducing the number of people using the streets. Thornberry/Well, coming down, I use it every day, coming down, because I have to, because I, you see it's... Kubby/It'sfaster. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 71 Thornberry/The only way to get over here. I mean. (All talking) Thornberry/ Coming down Dodge St. and going over on Bloomington there is a stop sign on Dodge, there is a stop sign on Lucas, there is a stop sign on Governor, yes? Vanderhoef/ And there's a stop sign on Reno... Thornberry/I don't think so, is there? Ripley/ At Bloomington? No, there are not stop signs on Bloomington. Thornberry/But what if we put a stop sign, for example, Center Street, and one at Reno. That would eliminate the problem for the fire department, right? It would also make it a little more inappropriate, I mean people may not want to go that way with all the stop signs. By the way, there are signs, "Watch Your Speed". Ah, between, in one block between, you know, a stop sign here and a stop sign at the end of the block and it's got "Watch Your Speed" right in the middle of it. Champion/But what happens Dean, then do people just not stop at those stop signs? Thornberry/No, right now people are stopping. They are slowing down a lot on Lucas and Governor, on Lucas anyway. Governor there you've got to watch for traffic, but ah, I don't know. Champion/See now that bothers me too. I think people quit stopping. Kubby/ Ripley/ We'll we also... Kubby/... stops in my neighborhood where there's the basket weave strategy. Thornberry/But at least they're there and at least they will slow down, but it's not the speed that they are looking for, it's to eliminate traffic. Ripley/ But by putting in stop signs we may see the speed concern come to play. Because what we typically find is people slow down at the point of the stop sign, but they accelerate coming away from it or coming ahead of it and they are actually going faster... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Thornberry/ (All talking) O'Donnell/ Council Work Session ...is that fight? Okay. ...reduce traffic on this street? Ripley/ I think it will have an impact. I don't know that impact is. It's... O'Donnell/But it's more likely to slow down cars than reduce than reduce... Ripley/ Page 72 It's more likely to slow cars down which, depending on how the moods of the people driving through these streets are on whether or not it will prevent them from going through the street or using the street... Thornberry/With parking on both sides it definitely slows the traffic down... Davidson/To the degree you impede a motorist when he's going through a neighborhood if you make it easy for him to get through, um, their going to go, as Dean said, it's a convenient route. If you make it less convenient you're likely going to reduce the number of people. O'Donnell/ Well, and then who's going to benefit from that? Davidson/Well the traffic, traffic doesn't disappear. It goes somewhere else. (All talking) Champion/ Davidson/...Connie... Kubby/ Davidson ...Right, what Karen just said... Norton/I don't know that we, we got decent majority here. I'm really finding it very difficult to go through these gyrations and get a majority and then say well, we don't really much need the majority. I mean these are cases were there is not huge concern, I think is a standard concern from the fire department but I can't imagine it is a huge one. So, I don't see why we don't go with the majority and give them a try... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Thomberry/ Council Work Session Page 73 It's not a try its like putting those big things in the street that you walk around and drive around by the senior center whatever. You know they can be taken out at any time. And they've been there for how long? Lehman/We've got part of one out. Norton/ Thornberry/I know but it only took two years. But I think in two years I think in two years First Ave. might think about being open and Scott Blvd. maybe even for sure. Norton/What do we need to convince you, a 75% ... Thornberry/Well, no. What I'm thinking is, I think this is a little too soon. I think once we see how much traffic is, and when the people were here talking about it, they were talking about the amount of traffic, not necessarily the speed. Norton/Well they concerned with both on Bloomington they had not documented yet... O'Donnell/ Primarily the amount I think though. Thornberry/They said it was more the amount, and like I say I go through there everyday. Kubby/ Thongberry/The way with parking on both sides, I think it would be very tight to get one of those big fire trucks through there because it's tight. Two cars can't go through... O'Donnell/ or other emergency vehicles. Thornberry/Pardon? O'Donnell/ or other emergency vehicles. Thornberry/Yeah, but boy that would definitely slow it down if there was parking on both sides and boy... Kubby/It's allowed now on Bloomington after 5 P.M. and the fire department does not have... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 74 Thornberry/Right. But I mean if it were all day. If it were all day I think it would it make it a little, a little... Norton/Do two side parking instead of the chicains? Thomberry/ Yes sir. Norton/... let's go... Kubby/ ... I mean, we've been told that the fire department is going to have a concern about any traffic calming because it reduces, most of the traffic calmings reducing speed, that's the number one concern of neighborhood associations and neighbor groups. And the fire department is saying that they are having concerns about that, so does that mean we don't do any traffic calming? Thornberry/We have done traffic calmings. And I think with parking on both sides Karen, that would calm traffic down considerably, because you can't get two cars through there with parking on both sides. Norton/That would be instead of chokers on both sides. Thornberry/Yes sir. And then, if it didn't reduce traffic significantly after First Ave. work was in then we could go back and do something else more permanent. O'Donnell/ Norton/ But remember, you need the circles because people would just come down from Pleasant and over and down Davenport or Fairchild. You understand? They're trying to go north on Dodge that's the cut through so you got to be careful about complete set here. Thornberry/Well, you don't go north on Dodge you go south on Dodge... Norton/I mean north on Governor. Kubby/ Do we have a disclaimer on our traffic calming process that we give out to neighborhoods saying that the council do, after you go through all this, the council can do whatever they want? Ripley/There's not a disclaimer per say, but it is defined in the process that you have the ultimate decision. Davidson/ This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 75 Kubby/ I think that needs to be flushed out a little more because we're seeing this every time. This is the third or forth traffic calming process we've gone through. Every time we get in this spot were people have followed the process and a group of us or another group of us has not liked what's come, including me... (All talking) Norton/ Kubby/ I'm not bashful about saying that. And so I think that we need to make it more clear that you can go through all of this and still not get it so that its really highlighted. I think people have this expectation, you go through all of this, you get the traffic study done, you get the neighborhood vote people are going door to door. They're reminding people, you know with their viewpoint to send their postcards and they go through this democratic process that we've outlined and then we micromanage it and change it, and then we all have genuine and logical reasons and our viewpoint on why we want to do that but I think its only fair... Thornberry/ Norton/We think it over and we may see ... Thornberry/ Kubby/...to highlight that possibility. Thornberry/I think maybe that they're not maybe waiting to see what's going to happen with First Ave ..... cause Karen, I know for a fact that its going to cut down the traffic on Bloomington St. by at least one. Vanderhoef/ Every time I head for the interstate and all the traffic around where I live and on east when they're trying to head west on the interstate Norton/..do doubt, we understand that... Vanderhoef/...we can't get there without going through all the multiple stop lights down Governor ... Norton/Yeah, you guys are part of the cut through traffic... Vanderhoef/ We have no way to get to... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Norton/Yes you do you can go on a regular street. Thornberry/That is a regular street. (All talking) Norton/What Rochester to Governor, how? Vanderhoef/ Well if you go Govemor... Thornberry/You can't go Rochester to Governor. Norton/Why not? (All talking) Thornberry/There's no way. Norton/Rochester to Governor, come on. (All talking) Norton/You could not cut through. Thornberry/You can chacain to the south. Norton/...you don't cut through you go the arterial and out. Champion/ Well I'm going to support it. Although I see some problems with it because of the reasons that Karen has stated and I didn't support the last one. We have either got to come to grips with the process, do away with it, or decide we are going to support it or revamp what we are doing because were wasting a lot of staff time... Norton/Yeah there's no need to do. Lehman/Let me ask you this, if the people on Dodge St. went up and down the street and got enough people on a petition ... (All talking) Lehman/Well, it's a neighborhood and they go through the process... Page 76 This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 (All talking) Norton/ Kubby/ Council Work Session Page 77 We got the information. We're not obliged to live by the majority I just think I don't see any good reason not to in this case. But when we say you know its not a clear enough majority, I think we need to get more clear about what kind of majority we feel comfortable with. O'Donnell/ Norton/ Kubby/ O'Donnell/ Champion/ (All talking) How much majority... 60 %, yeah ...and then put that out there so people will know what they need to have .... I've had more people against this traffic town talk to me ... Norton/But Mike, Mike, Come on, look at the numbers just because ... (All talking) O'Donnell/ Look at the numbers at 53% ... Norton/No, 60% Champion/How many phone calls did you get.'? (All talking) Champion/How many.'? O'Donnell/ That's a secret. Champion/1,4,5 9 O'Donnell/At least. How many did you get.'? Vanderhoef/I'll tell you were I am on this. This one is unique in that this neighborhood had this information several years ago when we were planing to do First Ave. through and were told probably this First Ave. would take care of the cut This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 78 through for them and now that possibility is out there again and I'm not ready to spend $47,000 for something that quotes is temporary and may not be needed in two years. Davidson/First Ave. is three years off Steve? Atkins/At least. /Three. (All talking) Kubby/By the time we get through revamping our budget. (All talking) Davidson/And, I guess since we're having a lot of questions here about the process, I mean, I don't need to tell you all this but I will anyway, this process is 100% developed by the seven of you. (All talking) Davidson/... and having gone through a few of these we can now see there are some things we want to change, we should change them. Norton/ Davidson/I mean it's not unrealistic to have gone from having no experience with it to now having some experience with it. (All talking) Kubby/In our next packet can we just get a, there's an one sheet thing with the nine steps or whatever it is can we get that in our next packet ... Norton/We might take a look at that. Davidson/I mean, if you want to establish a 70 % approval rate is required, do that then. (All talking) Norton/... two thirds or something... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Kubby/We complain about having to get 60% for bond referendums but we... O'Donnell/I never have. Kubby/ Lehman/Well, How many folks would like to proceed with this? How many people would prefer not to proceed with this? I guess you got it we will not proceed further. (Champion, Norton, Kubby vote yes. Vanderhoef, Lehman, O'Donnell and Thornberry vote no.) Davidson/Okay. Kubby/...years... Norton/ Page 79 Board/Commission Absence Policy 99-51 S1 Lehman/The next item is a board commission absence policy. We have got some information that we're going... (All talking) Norton/I haven't digested it yet. (All talking) Lehman/No, It will be in the packet that we get Friday and were going to defer this to the next work session or longer. Norton/Yeah cause we need to think about the input... (All talking) Norton/...some of it is missing the point, Ernie... (All talking) This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 80 Norton/...they've taken absolutely the most negative aspect of our thing, they don't understand the review process by the council. The logic behind our position is terribly presented in my judgment. Lel'nnan/Well also, Marian you have from each of the boards and commissions their reactions to .. Karr/ I have from a majority of them... Lehman/Majority. Karr/ ...some have chosen not to respond, but I do have it yes. Lehman/ But we will receive that this weekend and we can discuss it then. Each, we'll have the opinion of each board. Karr/ You want it this week or the packet of the 17th? Norton/...two weeks no hurry. Karr/ Okay. Norton/My only concern, Marian, with what I regard as a kind of negative interpretation of our intent, all through this thing is there is a hostile tone that bothered me. /I agree. Vanderhoef/ I would like to clarify, at least with the Human Rights Commission, because it appears in their discussion in the minutes at least that they did not see option of four and or 20%, whichever is greater. Norton/Right. Vanderhoef/ All they saw, or responded to, at least was the 20% and I have a feeling that some place that got lost in there. Kubby/Except that still ... Norton/...with Diane and certainly if20% is too low, make it 25 or something or some reasonable number (All talking) This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 81 Karr/Can I go back one second? Norton/...because we we're trying to minimize the people... Karr/ It doesn't say four Dee. What the information, that was modified. The information they got was absence of a board or commission member for more that 20% of the meetings in any successive twelve month period was modified. The one you had was a proposed one. The Rules Committee modified it down to 20%. Norton/I say we may go to 25 or whatever, but... (All talking) Vanderhoef/ ...cause all I've got in my... Karr/ Yeah, this was modified. Vanderhoef/ ...20% and/or four... Norton/ (All talking) Karr/ I'll put that with the stuff for Friday. O 'Donnell/... community volunteers... Norton/We understand that Mike, but the problem is that if people miss a whole lot the burden falls on other people and they should understand that some responsibility to come. Either that or don't sign up. (All talking) Champion/ O'Donnell/...well, if you miss 50%... Norton/Well, okay, make it 50%, make it some number, but don't... O'Donnell/ Norton/I don't know make it some bigger number, but don't live with calling in and unexplained and I've got an emergency da da da... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 82 Champion/ I don't think we would have even dealt with this if it hadn't been for a certain person on the human fights commission, that was not attending meetings and it came up from then and I think that's the only reason we... Norton/I noticed in the current minutes several other cases of somebody having to be gone ... not showing up... (All talking) Lehman/ We'll get the information. We'll discuss it at our next work session. Consider Appointments: Commission (1) 99-51 S1 Human Rights Commission (1); Parks and Recreation O'Donnell/ I'd like to nominate Cilek for Parks and Recs. Norton/Which one? O 'Donnell/ Cilek. ?/Toni Norton/Well, I liked Tim, but we certainly have a gender imbalance coming. O'Donnell/ We do and Toni would be a great one be on ... Vanderhoef/ She's a lifelong Iowa Citian. Lel'nnan/Well, do we have consensus on that? ?/Yes Norton/Yep. Kubby/ I like Dianne Kaufman because of her emphasis on the natural area and I think it would bring a good spectrum of value that people are coming on to the commission for. Cause there's some people really into the rec programs, other people into other aspects of the parks and recs commission. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Vanderhoef/ Council Work Session Page 83 You know, I appreciate your comments and I've looked through the people on and it seems to me that we've got a nice balance of people who are into trails and park... Norton/ Vanderhoef/ O 'Donnell/ Norton/ Lehman/ Norton/ Kubby/ Norton/ ..uh huh. I think it's a good commission and it's working well. Toni would be a wonderful addition. I could go there. I like Dianne too but... How about human rights commission? They're all good. I like Rick Spooner there. We really have a male gender problem there... (All talking) Champion/... and he' s handicapped, right? O'Donnell/ ...make any difference? Champion/I think it does. Norton/There could... (All talking) Vanderhoef/ Conhie... Norton/ Vanderhoef/ There is already another handicapped person on... Kubby/You mean a person with a disability. Champion/ O'Donnell/ Well, we This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 84 Lehman/All right... O'Donnell/ Well, we keep talking about process. Dee nominated, I seconded... Norton/I did that, but I want to be sure because I though other candidates were good, Hicks and Garcia both, but there is only one male on that group and it seems to me, kind of heavily biased, I mean heavily loaded. I don't make that a court case. Vanderhoef/ ...Garcia has some really... Kubby/Well, all of them do... (All talking) Norton/ Kubby/This always happens with human rights commission we get good applicant so looking at the gender issue is fine. Lehman/I think Rick is, do we have enough folks who would like to do Rick7 (All talking) Kubby/You know we talk about these, cause I know Mike had mentioned this a couple of times where, you know it's been nominated and second vote... Norton/ Kubby/ ... but I really need some discussion because that way I can say well, I'd like you to think about not voting because this other person and these are the qualities they have so we have some kind of discussion. Not just like nominate, vote, whatever. Champion/ O'Donnell/ Champion/...maybe if we did it not at the end of the evening... Norton/... early evening, you're not cutting into... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 85 Champion/I'm starving. O'Donnell/ I am too. Norton/You're hungry? Oh Council Agenda/Council Time 99-51 S1 Lehman/City council infonnation. Mike. O'Donnell/ At our last formal meeting we had public discussion that I think was really out of hand. Norton/Uh hugh. Kubby/ Lehman/Yeah. O'Donnell/I think it was uncalled for. We've had the city attorney, the City Manager called names, accused of things and I think it's ridiculous. City Council, this time is to address the council and I believe if you want to address the members of city staff you do it not in this forum. Not when the city council is meeting. You call them so they at least have an opportunuty to answer them and defend themselves and it's not in a place to get in that kind of argumet and I just think it was very very - I just think it was not proper the way it was handled. I can accept frustration, but you know there has to be a certain level of civility maintained at these council meetings. I don't like it and... Champion/It should not be allowed. O'Donnell/ Should not be allowed. You address the council. Kubby/I mean you can talk to me... Lehman/ Yeah, and I don't disagree with you and I think perhaps one of the things we could possibly do is when we call for public discussion is indicate to the public that comments are less than, if they are rude or whatever, they will not be tolerated. O'Donnell/ Name calling, Ernie. We've had that. We've had it addressed to the city attorney and addressed to the City Managers and probably others. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 86 Champion/ O'Donnell/ ...and it goes beyond freedom of speech. Lehman/No, I know and this has happened like three different times... Kubby/But there are times when the public has legitimate questions to the council but also to the City Manager or the City Attorney or the City Clerk because they have certain kinds of responsibilities... Champion/ Questions are not where it gets Karen. Kubby/Well, maybe I'm getting confused about what we're talking about? Champion/ We're talking about name calling. Kubby/Okay. Well, some of what I'm heating is it shouldn't be used as forum to address the city manager or the city attorney... That's not what Mike means. Champion/ Kubby/ O'Donnell/ There is a certain level of civility there, Karen, I think it got out of hand. You even commented that it was good conversation and it isn't good conversation. There's not one bit of civility to it. Kubby/But, because someone brings it up, getting defensive... O'Donnell/ Kubby/ ...but there was a lot of defensive reaction and I think that one of our roles is to be accountable to the public and we may get questions even if someone is rude to me, doesn't mean that I have to respond in a rude way. I can choose not to respond. I can respond by answering the question. I don't have a problem with being held accountable in the public. Nor having Steve or any of our other staff, um, doing that. (All talking) O'Donnell/ I don't want members of this staff maligned, where on television... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 87 Kubby/That's not what I'm talking about. O'Donnell/ Well, that's what you just said. Norton/ Kubby/1 did not say I encourage, it's okay with me that malign our staff. I did not. Did anyone hear me say that? O'Donnell/ Karen... Kubby/I said that when people ask questions, I may not like the way a that the questions were asked... Thornberry/No. Wait a minute, wait a minute. We're not talking... CHANGE TAPE TO REEL 99-51 SIDE 2 Thornberry/...here and it's probably a good thing I wasn't, but I watched the thing on TV, and it was not a question and he knew what he was going to call Steve because he already had the definition from the dictionary. And I didn't think it was appropriate and I didn't think you're comment after he said that was appropriate as the way it came across on TV about being good conversation. After he said that, it was not good conversation. It was not good conversation at all. It was maligning one of our employees. One of our three employees and nobody, but nobody stood up for that man... Norton/But Steve... Thornberry/...during that conversation and it just galled me... Norton/There is no way, back when, listen. Back to the Shaw thing, RJ was maligned, 1 was maligned, we've all been maligned... Thornberry/He wasn't our employee. Norton/ Thornberry/He's our employee and both of them are our employees... Norton/...people are likely... Thomberry/ This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 88 Norton/ ...the only thing you can do is, the Mayor have to try to use his judgment to intervene. That's all you can do. You cannot legislate that thing. He can certainly urge, or try to cut them of or do whatever... Lehman/ No, Norton/...the rest of us jump into those... Lehman/I think maybe it would be appropriate and proper when we call for public discussion, to just indicate that there are rules of behavior... Norton/ O'Donnell/ Lehman/...be within certain levels and I do think... Norton/...and if you do have a particular hassle with a staff member try to take that out in private rather than here. Lehman/But I think that we could maybe put some rules out at the beginning of public discussion. O'Donnell/ Oh, I think we have to because I think... Lehman/No. I think you're fight... O'Donnell/...public discussion and it was not proper. Lehman/ No, and it's very seldom, I've been on the Council for five years, I can remember three times that there have been comments that I thought were absolutely out of order, maybe four and one of them was at the last meeting. I mean, that guy was absolutely out of line and I didn't have much luck with him. I mean the guy was not gonna sit down. Now... Champion/ You know what you can do then Emie, is just say we're gonna take a five minute break... (All talking) Lehman/I did think of doing that. I don't know if it would've accomplished, in any event we will do that from now on. We'll kind of say at the beginning of public This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 89 discussion that comments will be, that we'll only take comments that are in good taste and that are respectable and whatever else .... (All talking) Lehman/Not to say you can't question anybody... O'Donnell/ Lehman/ No, but I do believe the public always has the right and certainly exercise the fight to question what we do and that's fine. I think that is what we have public discussion for, but I do think they can be respectful in the way they do it. Kubby/ Right, but when we, when someone speaks to me disrespectfully and I respond disrespectfully and defensively, all I do is escalate the situation, instead of taking a conversational tone of voice and saying I hear your concerns and here are the answers to it, by getting defensive, I just think it's very difficult politically to have people feel like we're very open. And that you when you can even hear what they are saying through their rudeness and through their disrespect I think that that's a challenge. For me it's a challenge and I'm trying to work through that... O'Donnell/ I hope you take on that challenge. I have a problem with it. Kubby/But that's what's going to happen. We're in the public eye. We are public officials and we have different level of responsibility... O'Donnell/And I don't have a problem with it Karen. They can address the questions to us whenever they want. When they address a staff member, who sitting there, and really not in a position or not the proper forum to respond, I think they should be told they can all them. Give them the office hours. Call them tomorrow if you have that specific question... Kubby/Well, then live it out... (All talking) Lehman/No, but O'Donnell/ Kubby/There have been three times when you've confronted me here in this public forum. You've never called me personally to talk about things that bothered This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 90 you and I wouldn't have a problem if you did. I don't have a problem with you doing it here, but live it out. Lehman/ O'Donnell/ Well now I've not saying you do that four or five times Karen... Kubby/But I've not claimed to do that. (All talking) Lehman/ Kubby/ Lehman/ Norton/ Lehman/ Norton/ Karen, you said something and I agree. We are in the public eye, but I also think that when we listen to the discussion that happened two weeks ago, and the public sees us sit there and not say anything, I think we're saying as much by not reacting to what he said ... No, I think that we should have done something because I think by not doing something we sent a really bad message. So, I think we'll set the rules before we start and I guess if we do get somebody who is absolutely out of order and will not sit down. I will call for recess. I do think it is up to the mayor to do these interventions. I just think it is a mistake for the rest of us to jump into the fray with our views. It just exacerbates the situation and we just have to trust the mayor to do the best he can to stop that kind of stuff. Norton/ O'Donnell/ I don't think we need to set any rules at all. Norton/Well, I'm just saying;... O'Donnell/ Because it doesn't happen that often, Ernie, but we just need to correct... Lehman/That's probably true, that's probably right... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Vanderhoef/ meeting... Norton/Yeah, he's got... Council Work Session What I will say is I will defer to my mayor to do that. Page 91 He is chairing this Vanderhoef/ ...and I will stand behind him 100% if he asks someone to leave. Lehman/ You're comment is well taken, I think you're right that this did get out of hand and I think that I probably, I'll see to it that it doesn't happen again. Vanderhoef/ And I will support your actions. Lehman/All right. (All talking) Norton/...you have a gavel, Ernie, remember? Lehman/I do. Champion/I did go to the school board meeting for their short discussion ...and Mr. Woodruff was not the speaker of the group that night. Lehman/I know. I knew he wasn't going to... Kubby/Did you say anything at that meeting? Champion/ No. Kubby/Just observed. Vanderhoef/ We observed. Champion/They have asked or suggested, I think Emie will probably get a letter or maybe he already did... Lehman/Not yet. Champion/We split the cost of the shades... Vanderhoef/ The labor for the shades. Champion/which is $350. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 92 Kubby/God. God. I just think of West High lights and all that. God. Norton/ Kubby/We should decline and say you should be doing this on your own. (All talking) It's such a little amount. I just hope it will solve the problem. I think they are responsible for this. Kubby/ Norton/ Vanderhoef/ (All talking) Lehman/ Norton/ We'll visit this again, I'm sure. I wanted to ask, in that regard, is there any, that Monday night meeting, which is a public meeting, that's not a real night for us to have any particular input, is it? (All talking) Kubby/...go and listen... Norton/...go if you want to, but... Lehman/You can go and listen, but if there is more than three of us there we can't participate in any discussion. Norton/I don't even want to go. Champion/ Yeah, I'm going to go. Kubby/I'm interested in going, cause I live in that neighborhood and hear a lot about this. Norton/I hear a lot about the lights. I've been over there two or three times and talked to neighbors but... Kubby/Is it a problem with having more than four of us there? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 93 Dilkes/I think what we always say is if there are four of you there and it becomes a dialog between the group of you and the school board ... Lehman/Somebody leave. Dilkes/Then it's a problem. Lehman/ Yeah. Dilkes/ So, I think we try and avoid it by just not having four of you there. Lehman/Eleanor, isn't it correct that if there are four people there and none of them participate in the discussion that it is probably okay. Dilkes/ If you sit there and don't say anything... Lehman/ ...listen. Okay, anything else for council? Dee. Norton/Yeah, I wanted to remind us that I hope we do find a chance to think about our goal session sometime. I know we've got a lot on our agenda, but given the developments for the last few months and prospects we have, money-wise and so forth. Now I'm sure we're gonna do some of that on Wednesday I'm sure, but I don't know whether we need another session. I'd like to at least think about redoing our goal at some point, maybe June or sometime. I don't know when you can see ... Kubby/But we do need to be reviewing our goals to make the priority decision... Norton/That's right, we need to do it before we do it on Wednesday. Maybe we ought to start with just kind of touching base with our goals Wednesday morning before we start, but I don't want to lose the time to make those decisions, but they got to be made in the light of a larger vision... Kubby/ Atkins/ Kubby/ Norton/ Kubby/ ... just copies of that in case... Of what? Of our goals... Well, we had some from last year... ...so we can use that as a reference Wednesday? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Atkins/ Lehman/ Atkins/ Kubby/ Atkins/ Lehman/ Atkins/ Lehman/ Norton/ Council Work Session There's a report I wrote and I took each of the goals ... Page 94 I can get you more copies of that... ...or you just want the goals? Well, I think perhaps the one where you gave the update... I'll get ya both. Fine. Are there others who like to do... ? Otherwise, I don't want to have any extra meetings that are unnecessary. I just want to make sure we're in the same ballpark in terms of what we are try8ing to achieve here. Champion/ That's a good idea to bring ... Norton/ And in particular, for example, I'm looking at what we're doing on the industry recruiting. Cause you know, we're not going to get anywhere, if we don't get some more tax base. Clearly, under the circumstances that's where, we're gonna have to be sure we're working hard on that front and I don't know whether we are or not. Is anybody going to the ICAD luncheon on Friday? Four ofya, I'm too late, but maybe I can still go. (All talking) Lehman/I'm sure you can go, just call... (All talking) Norton/Maybe I'll show us just to let them know we're concerned. Vanderhoef/ We sent in our own. Karr/ I sent in Dean's. Norton/I think the other things I'll take up, but I did think the helicopter ride today was very interesting. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 95 Lehman/It was worth our time. Vanderhoef/ Oh, absolutely. Norton/We took... Champion/ That's who it was. There were people complaining about the helicopter... (All talking) Norton/Yeah, we had two different trips... (All talking) O'Donnell/ Were you sitting inside or outside? Vanderhoef/ Norton/...very informative and I rode with the police Friday night, that's also very informative, let me tell you. Little punchy for a golf game after getting in at 3:30, but I scored heavily on the money. Lehman/Do we want to try to set, I think I hear folks saying that it would be worthwhile to set a goal session. Do we want to set time for that now? I mean, do you have your calendars, I mean what's the feeling? Kubby/It's ironic to make it after we're gonna make all these budget adjustments. Norton/Yeah, we're kind of out of phase. (All talking) Atkins/ Folks, I would not expect you to make budget adjustments on Wednesday. I've prepared about 15 minutes worth .... about tax levies and rates just to make sure everybody has the same information. (All talking) Atkins/I think you need to fashion a project, if you can pick a project and then discuss what options you might have for financing it and then how we go to fulfill those options. I would consider that a productive morning. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 96 (All talking) Norton/How can you do one? You've got to look at a collection of them and make some progress in the light of the goals. Atkins/Absolutely. Norton/If we think downtown is still important, Capt. Irish is still important or Rocky Road or whatever... Atkins/If your gonna try to decide whether you're gonna put a library project on or off a referendum or you're gonna put a a senior center in our out of the garage... Kubby/ Atkins/ Well, and stormwater. (All talking) Norton/Stormwater and there's the peninsula is going to come sooner or later. Lehman/Well, I think you have two distinct things. One of these things you're talking about an $8.10 levy that we really have got to wrestle with. One of them are capital improvements that are a totally different situation... Norton/I understand that... Lehman/...those things are gonna be taken care of... Norton/They are different, but they also affect the tax base. Lehman/They do, but they don't affect the 8 10. Norton/ Atkins/ Norton/ You have two specific requests from the library and from the Senior Center. You've got to answer those. I believe you have to answer those. Well, that might be enough to answer those, in answering those and consider the goals... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 97 Atkins/You have a specific request from the Library Board and your Senior Commission you gotta answer them. Norton/Then later we come to the peninsula, Capt., Irish, and the westside da da da... Lelunan/And that's a bigger discussion... Norton/ Well, we may need to set an extra meeting at some point because I think we have some huge decisions facing us and we don't want to go in to next Fall out of disarray and by the time we get into the election campaigns and all that. Atkins/ You can chose to use the current capital plan and the current operation budget and if you chose to make changes in that I think you need to step back and have a separate meeting and that's the topic and what is the goal. We want to generate X number of dollars to finance this project in this fashion. You've got to decide on a project first. Lehman/Or even reaffirm what we're doing, but we need to go through it. Atkins/ If you reaffirm what you're doing and say we're not gonna take any further action, no action, is a decision itself. (All talking) Norton/ One of the things I mean is that we need to take a look at the vision statement, 2000, statement, that was done in 1994 and it may need, and everybody hasn't looked at that lately. We need to start from that perspective and see, are we doing the things that we thought. Maybe there's some changes. Atkins/ That' s for the goal session Dee. You've got a library board expecting to meet with you all on the 17th and get an answer from. /Talk about it before hand... Atkins/ I would sure encourage you to, and if the decision is we want to think about this or we want to do a goal session or we want to do certain, that's okay too, but you have to communicate .... Norton/But is that stuffgonna happen Wednesday morning? Atkins/ No. You can't get all that done Wednesday morning. Norton/What do we do next Monday? What's up next Monday? Is that an off... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 98 Atkins/ Norton/ Atkins/ Norton/ What I'm worded about, Ernie, is that between now and the 17th, when we wanna have our duck's in a row, maybe Wednesday isn't sufficient for that purpose... Oh it won't be. Connie and I have another session with the county and the senior people on Friday. I have a list of questions that I'll go over with you tomorrow, Steve and Conhie. Questions deposed to the county, are you prepared to consider x, are you prepared to consider y... Kubby/Are you suggesting that we need to find a date after the 5th and before the 17th... Atkins/ How about a week from today? 10th? Champion/ That's perfect, wait a minute... Norton/The 10th is that damn light ... Lehman/Well, if we can't be, this is probably more important... Kubby/ Norton/ Lehman/ Norton/ We could be under the lights... Somebody could go by that meeting briefly... Vanderhoef/ ...um the l0th in the morning I can do it. Lehman/I can't do it Monday morning. Kubby/I can do it from 1:00 to 5:00. Lehn~an/Monday is out unless we want to do it Monday night, how about Tuesday the 11 th? Champion/ Okay with me. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Kubby/I can't do night. Lehman/I can do afternoon, but I can't do morning. Champion/ I could do afternoon. Vanderhoef/ I could do afternoon. Norton/Tuesday the 11th in the afternoon is an option. Lehman/No, you say you can't do afternoon? O'Donnell/Not Tuesday. Lehman/Well, how about Wednesday the 12th? Wednesday morning? Vanderhoef/ O'Donnell/ Vanderhoef/ Norton/ Lehman/Does Wednesday moming work? Or afternoon before the Historic Preservation Awards... (All talking) Lehman/All right Wednesday morning the 12th at 8:00. Norton/Well, let's review that an I'll tell... Lehman/All right, tentatively, we'll confirm tomorrow night. Kubby/ Lehman/I think 8:00 is a good time. Norton/ Atkins/ We need to do it, that's our agenda day, I'll have to get out of here at a reasonable time... Page 99 This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Norton/ Lehman/ Atkins/ Council Work Session Oh, that's you're agenda day. Norton/ Page 100 That's okay. We usually start at 9:00, we'll stop at 11:00. I just need to know cause I have to round up a whole bunch of people. Cause we've got to do an agenda. Well, let's look at our calendar's for sure... Vanderhoef/ Atkins/ Lehman/ Would Thursday be better for everybody? I won't be here Thursday. All right, well tentatively we'll go for Wednesday morning at 8:00. Champion/ Lehman/Other... O'Donnell/ We got this letter from Bruce Nestor. Lehman/There is also a reply to that in your packets, it's here, you have an answer to that in the papers we got tonight. O'Donnell/ Good. Kubby/ I just got the letter tonight, did other people get that? (All talking) Lehman/I got the answer. O'Donnell/ In particular, I attended that forum, this comment about the chiefs refusal to stay there is not correct. Lehman/Well, I think that it's addressed pretty well in the response that we got. O'Donnell/All right. I have not read that reply... Lehman/Any other council information? Vanderhoef/ Yes. Did you get your letter? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 101 Lehman/No, I did not. Champion/ Lehman/Let me see it. Vanderhoef/ That one? Norton/Which one is this now? Vanderho ef/ It was one that was sent to the Mayor and then I received a copy of it with a cover letter from Mark Moore, who is Workforce Development consultant for the state workforce commission, and he is requesting time at the 17th work meeting to talk with the Iowa City Council about the new Workforce Investment Act, which is 1998. And it is a new program that will replace what we have known as JPTA and the other federal government programs. There' s about a dozen of them that are controlled presently by the East Central Iowa Employment and Training Consortium and the PIC, which is the Private Industry Council. Kubby/ Is it timely? Vanderhoef/ It is very timely. Ah, they wanted Iowa to be up and running by July 1 and the Workforce Regional Advisory Board that I sit on, the appointment from the state is being collapsed in to this and they are trying to get everybody put together under the new Workforce Investment Act. Kubby/ Would this be educational? Vanderhoef/ It would be that and what the request will be is that Iowa City as an entity, will sit on the new consortium for all of these programs. Kubby/ Vanderhoef/ Right now there are three groups that are all mixed in here and they are going to get it all collapsed down to one and they want Iowa City, Coralville, Johnson County, this is the 7th County Region, so Linn County and Cedar Rapids and Iowa, Jones, Washington ah who am I forgetting? Lehman/Well, I don't but... Kubby/ This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 102 Lehman/He's requesting a 1/2 hour which I think is more time than he needs... Kubby/ Lehman/Well, we've done it, but I think you should be able to be articulate enough to explain yourself in 10 or 15 minutes... Kubby/ ... ahead of time for a packet... Lehman/I suggest, I talked to Dee about this, that we should have information ahead of time. O'Donnell/ I think it's important. Lehman/It is important... Vanderhoef/ It is very important because they want this Region 10, which believe it or not is the outstanding region in the state at the present time and we're further along in doing the one-stop shop for all of these things or any of the regions in the state and they want it in place by January 1 to have time to work out bugs before it becomes official July 1 a year from now. Lehman/Would it be okay with council if we invite this gentleman to come for 15 minutes and ask him to give us information prior to the meeting? Champion/ Yeah. Lehman/And will you see to it that this gets, Steve will give you a copy of the letter and you can respond to that. All right, any other City Council information? Atkins/ Quick thing for you I handed out two documents for you tonight. One is a map of projects in '99 - it's intended to be an easy reference guide for you. I know when you're out and about you're to talking to service clubs, it makes it kind of easy way to reference. We'll get ya more copies (inaudible) popular throughout the staff. Secondly, this will be at the entrance, the pictures are not the most exciting in the world, we took those from video tape so we did a reasonable good job (All talking) Lehman/ This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 103 Atkins/...this is something new, it will be in the back. If you'd like extra copies or anything .... (All talking) Norton/I said it looks just like ya Mike, but I think they can touch it up. O'Donnell/ (All talking) Lehman/Do we, all right, we all know about the Scanlon gym grand opening Saturday the 22nd? Norton/Yeah. Lehman/ There is one thing we need to set, we need to set it fairly soon, we need to set a date for staff evaluations sometimes this month or next. (All talking) Why don't you bring your calendar's to Mark. We can try to do that Wednesday morning. Karr/ Can I make a suggestion? Lehman/Yes. Karr/ There is a number of you who've got tentative things planned. What about if you just furnish absences to me, we can take a look at some open dates and bring those open dates to you. Rather then taking valuable time to assess it back and forth. We could through out some dates... Champion/ ... struggle... (All talking) Lehman/All right, well we do need to get that set... Karr/ If you'd just get back, give me a list of dates you won't be in town and maybe some real open dates will just pop up. Okay? And then you can decide the dates. Lehman/And then... Kubby/... Susan... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399 May 3, 1999 Council Work Session Page 104 Lehman/...we're going to have a little discussion I believe with the some of the bar owners... Norton/When? Lehman/I don't know when, but with the Stepping Up people, the bar owners and some of the city staff people to see if we can get a little dialogue started and I don't know whether we want to have our discussion regarding stricter enforcement of liquor laws before we have that dialogue or not. I think probably it would be better if we met with them first... Champion/I think it would be better to meet with them first. Lehman/We're trying to set that up now and it'll happen in the next couple weeks. O'Donnell/6:30 tomorrow night? Lehman/6:30 tomorrow night, that's correct. Anybody else? Thank you. Adjoumed 10:00 p.m. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of May 3, 1999 WS050399