HomeMy WebLinkAbout1999-06-14 TranscriptionJune 14, 1999 Council Work Session Page 1
June 14, 1999
Council Work Session
4:00 PM
Council: Lehman, Champion, Kubby, Norton, O'Donnell, Thornberry, Vanderhoef
Staff:
Kugler, Miklo, Rockwell, Yapp, Davidson, O'Neil, Ripley, Fowler, Logsden,
Hennes, Rocca, Boothroy, Trueblood, Matthews, Atkins, Dilkes, Franklin,
Helling, Karr
Tapes: 99-59 S2, 99-63 all, 99-64 all, 99-65 all
A complete transcription is available in the City Clerk's office.
Northeast District Plan 99-59S2
Lehman/ Guys, northeast area plans. Karin, are you going to moderate?
Franklin/ Yes.
Lehman/ Umpire, referee?
Franklin/ Yes, I'm going to facilitate. Okay, what do you want to do?
Lehman/
(can't hear). We've heard concems from Home Builders, from neighbors,
we've heard all about the staff report, we've had public hearing on at least 3
nights, some of them longer than others. I think this is the time that we
indicated that we would like to discuss it among ourselves so if there are
concerns among the Council people now is the time to discuss it.
Champion/
My concern was mainly with the lack of comments of the plan by the
developers. The meeting the other day I thought was rather not even
productive. But maybe Karin you have a different look on the idea than I do.
Thornberry/Well I was at both meetings Connie the first one and second one. The second
one they sort of not capitulated but what they did was accepted a whole lot
more than they did in the first one. The first meeting it was...
Champion/They accepted under a condition.
Thornberry/Right, at least they came up with the conditions that they got.
Champion/Yeah, the condition was that the plan would state options, but the options to
build like they always have would be the first option.
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Thornberry/
Franklin/
Lehman/
Franklin/
Champion/
Franklin/
Kubby/
Champion/
Kubby/
Franklin/
Kubby/
Franklin/
Well they said no, they said that I believe.
I think the way it has come through in the letter is.
Neo-traditional preferred but the tradition.
That the traditional development would be the preferred type of development
conventional development is an acceptable alternative. Which if you
remember the comments that we responded to the initial communication from
the Home Builders Association. We had suggested that there could be the
insertion of some language on page 13 when it discusses neighborhood
planning. That, although the design concepts described are preferred, or a
traditional development is preferred.
Right.
Conventional subdivision design which meets the planning principles
expressed in this plan will be considered acceptable. In the planning
principles are those things which are enumerated on pages 8, 9, and 10.
And that in 10 is implicit in the plan.
Right.
But the Home Builders feel uncomfortable cause explicitly stated.
Right, right.
So I mean I don't have any problem with that particular sentence that Karin
just read because it is there anyway.
Champion/I wouldn't have any problem with that.
Vanderhoef/There was something
Okay, so let's take a point at a time. Is there then consensus that we insert
language that is very similar to or the language that we suggested in our
response to the original letter from the Home Builders?
Lehman/ I think so.
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Norton/ Yea.
Franklin/ OK so that.
Thomberry/Item 6 stating what now Karen?
Franklin/
OK. Although traditional development is described as preferred, conventional
subdivision design which meets the planning principles expressed in this plan
or on pages 8-10 will be considered acceptable.
Champion/Yes, I don't have any problem with that.
Norton/ Cause otherwise there will be something (can't hear).
Vanderhoef/There is something though also about what is already in our zoning
ordinances and to state that as long as they met those, the ordinances of the
conventional.
Franklin/ That wasn't in their letter. But I mean that ' s.
Kubby/ Has to meet our zoning ordinance.
Franklin/ Yea that's.
Vanderhoef/That's what I mean, and that's the kind of statement that I think we need to
have that goes with that.
Franklin/ I don't know what that means, because you have to.
Lehman/ I don't know either.
Franklin/ You have to.
Vanderhoef/Let me find what I wrote. I wrote something here.
Franklin/
Okay. This is, remember the relationship between a plan, which is a policy
statement and it's a vision, where as the ordinances, the zoning ordinances
are the law. It's that law that we use when we review subdivisions and
zonings and everything. So, rezoning is going to come more under the
auspices of the plan that is that will be used as a guide for making your
zoning decisions. When a subdivision comes in it has to follow the zoning
laws. Now, we may at some point in time, we will be going through our
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zoning ordinance to see its compliance with our comprehensive plan. We
have not done that since we adopted the plan in 1997. But at that point we
will have deliberation, I'm sure, on exactly what those laws say and what is
required verses what is in the vision. But it's very important at this point that
you all be together on what the vision is. The vision being that we look at the
development of property with more of a focus on creating neighborhoods
than not.
Champion/Right.
O'Donnell/Creating neighborhoods, but not styles, I think.
Franklin/ I'm not talking about building styles at all.
O'Donnell/OK.
Franklin/ Not at all.
Kubby/
And that' s why that part of the sentence that says as long as it meets the
principles.
Franklin/ Yea.
Kubby/ Is really important phrase to have in there so that that is reemphasized.
Franklin/ Cause that 's about interconnected streets, it's about having open spaces and I
mean really a lot of the stuff that we do right now.
Norton/
Doesn't it also have something also about some mix, I mean looking at all the
discussion about Windsor Heights Development that's in our minutes and so
forth, the whole question of some multiple family being integrated with
single family seems to be sticking in people's craw.
Franklin/
The sentence is, using traditional neighborhood design concepts to locate
townhouses and small apartment houses in and adjacent to neighborhood
commercial areas at intersections of arterial and collector streets along
arterial streets and near institutional facilities and parks. OK.
Lehman/ That's fine.
Vanderhoef/How is that different than what's in the comprehensive plan?
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Franklin/ It isn't.
in '97.
Vanderhoef/Right.
Perfectly consistence with this comprehensive plan that was adopted
Franklin/ I think what has happened is that, well a lot of things have happened, but one
thing that has happened is that our discussion of the peninsula, which is not
what this is about, this is different from the peninsula. The peninsula when
we talk about diversity of housing has different housing types fight next to
each other. It doesn't say around commercial areas it doesn't say on arterial
streets it doesn't say near institutional facilities. But it is to experiment with
the possibility of having, as in Dee Norton's neighborhood, multi-family,
duplexes, single family, all in the same block. That is the experiment of the
peninsula. That is not what this plan is. Okay?
Champion/We have a really good example of that at with the Scott Boulevard business
with all of the multiple family...
Franklin/ Yes.
Champion/Right along the arterial.
Franklin/Court and Scott.
Lehman/ Right
Vanderhoef/Well that's all in the comprehensive plan anyway.
Champion/Right I know that.
Thornberry/It's.
Vanderhoef/I guess what...
Thornberry/Preferred as opposed to must have.
Champion/Right.
Franklin/ Yes, we're not saying you must build a commercial center, you must build
multi-family.
Thornberry/You must have alleys, you must have.
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Franklin/ No.
Lehman/ No.
Franklin/
No, what we're saying is that there's possibility there. If somebody wishes to
do that, the vision for the City says yes you can do that. We're finding with
this whole Windsor Ridge discussion the plan is supporting exactly what
Gary Watts wants to do. It's providing that flexibility there to put in different
housing types in that neighborhood. That's what it was all about.
Vanderhoef/And that is also in the comprehensive plan.
Franklin/ Yes.
Vanderhoef/Okay, I've spent hours on this.
Franklin/ Me to.
Vanderhoef/And I keep coming back to this and my question is as long as we have a
comprehensive plan why do we have district plans? They are repeating again
and again what is already set out in our comprehensive plan. That we don't
have any of these preconceived notion of a neo-traditional with a map and so
forth in it. I cannot see what we're doing other than inviting more public
input to design what is in their backyard. And their designing for people who
are not there. Our comprehensive plan is already doing that and it's like
layering plan on top of plan and I think it's terribly confusing. I think it is a
huge amount of energy put into a project that I'm not sure we are doing
anything but redesigning the same wheel.
Franklin/ Can I7
Norton/
I disagree because it seems to me we're looking at specific reasons. We can
consider and in the plan the new talk about for example the flood control or
storm water. That is looking at that part more broadly and that's spelled out
and some of the suggested layouts take account of that rather than let them
come about piece meal. So it's just more specific and related to the
topography and all the rest of that.
Vanderhoef/But we do that regularly.
Norton/ But the comp plan is very very general about those matters not very specific.
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Vanderhoef/And this is too because what every every time we ask about things like the
alleys the reply that we're getting is well this is just one possibility, this an
opportunity. These are the words I keep hearing Karin say to us, she says it
to the builders and it's like, yes and I agree that it is an opportunity and it is a
possibility and those same opportunities and possibilities are in the comp
plan. So, I really am questioning I may be clear off in left field, but I really
question whether we need to be having district plans.
Franklin/
Well, I guess what I would respond to that similar to what Dee is saying is
that there are broad principles in here that apply to the entire community and
as we do the district plans we are focusing more on a certain part of town and
trying to apply those broad principles for the entire community to this
specific place and yes, it is getting to a greater degree of specificity. Whether
you look at South District plan or the Noaheast District plan it becomes more
specific as to where the major road ways are going to go, where you're going
to have explicitly your commercial centers, you're neighborhood centers and
there is a very deliberate motion to get more specific as you go into the
district plans. It also.
Vanderhoef/Are you telling me that's it's when you do that you're saying and this is only
a suggestion, we're not telling you you have to put this here.
Franklin/
No, I'm not telling, yes, it's not telling you you have to put this here, but it is
a vision for what this place will be like. And it gets more specific for the
specific areas so that people can see the vision not just in words but in
pictures and this is different from what we've done in the past in that it is
more specific, but it is a, an effort to get to a more common vision, so that
everybody is seeing the same thing.
Kubby/
But it also lets us do some planning in terms of our popular improvement
program in that it helps us.
Franklin/ Yes it does.
Kubby/
Have a more comprehensive look by looking at specific areas about how the
road will be and the other infrastructure like, Storm Water Management and
Trails and Parks and to see the comprehensive plan lets us kind of look in
general at the whole picture than we do the individual plans which are
appendices and connected and they become part of the comprehensive plan
and I mean we have a vote. I mean the vote is to put as part of the
comprehensive plan. We look at things more specifically and make sure they
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fit in with the other plans that we've done as a whole plan. For me it's an
important part of looking at the bigger picture, honing in on the small but
connecting it to the bigger picture and it does allow property owners and
business owners and residents to help plan for their area of town. It gives
everybody a sense of ownership of the vision and of some of the specifics
that could be in their neighborhood. People have been wanting to be
involved in that way.
Norton/
I think, why are we, I guess I'd ask Dee, you agreed to the evolution of these
plans as I understand it? I mean as far as we know saying we should throw
out these plans?
VanderhoeffNo, it's just that as we have gone on further and further and we hear different
objections and we hear, in this particular plan we've got multiple owners who
may or may not be the developers, so that that may change and we're hearing
now from our 240 acre planned community that is under one developer, one
ownership and we're having the same kinds of questions coming from quote
"the neighbors" who already live in that development who don't have that
same vision or felt that they perhaps had not been spoken to in a real clear
fashion to what is going to come in their backyard. They have a vision of
what it is and there was a whole big drawing on it, so it's like I'm not sure
that this is going to be of any advantage and perhaps it could even reverse
back because the vision, you know, how even when I look at a picture how it
looks to me, may look different to you.
Norton/
Well we didn't have. If we we're getting some squawks, I would think we
weren't getting more specific. That is one reason you're going to get a little
response is because you are somewhat more specific than the original plan
and that bound to bring out some differences. But I don't know what
otherwise would help guide Council or the Planning and Zoning or the Board
of Adjustments. They've got to have reasonably specific guidance as is
evidence from the minutes. Some wants more specific guide what is we're
trying to accomplish as a community?
Vanderhoef/And the specific for me is the comp plan and what our Code says. Yes, we
may be changing some of the Code and Karin.
Norton/ This is still comp plan fight here, pieces of it.
Vanderhoef/Right it is and is a duplication.
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Lehman/
Well look at this way. If this were to me this is an expansion of the comp
plan. It's a tailoring of the plan to an area. It's like you buy the car this is the
available options that you have for that car. No, I know I'm being simplistic,
but these are the kinds of things that may or may not have occurred to you
but these things we think would look nice in this area and so these are
options, you don't have to do them, these are options that we think and if you
do it this way it's a concept that really enhances the existing comprehensive
plan, it tailors it to a specific area, is that kind of what we're trying to do?
Franklin/ Yes.
Vanderhoef/That is a possibility and when we go through this much time and effort and
these people have spent hours themselves out there in the community coming
to the meetings, doing the visioning coming to us and the information is fine
and yet what we're coming up with is only possibilities and guidelines that
we already have available in our comp plan.
Franklin/ But it is more specifically applied in this case and that is what is getting the
reaction to is as you get.
Vanderhoef/But when you say it's specifically applied then Karin, to me that says and
we're gonna do it this way and then it that becomes not a possibility or
opportunity.
Kubby/
But, it's the principles are solidified and being more specific but how you
implement those principles are flexible.
Norton/ We're more specific about liking some single loaded streets.
Thornberry/Well, it's not against the law now to do a single loaded street.
Norton/
I understand in principle can do everything with no complex. Where is that
getting us? In principle you can do everything with just a Code.
Thornberry/No, Dee what I'm saying.
Norton/
I'm just saying this is just a refinement of the plan, now whether it's worth
your candle or not I don't know.
Kubby/ Are other people questioning the validity or the value of this?
Vanderhoef/There may not be anybody else that does.
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Franklin/
Yeah, I mean I've got two issues here. One is whether to include language in
here about conventional development and the other is whether we should do
district plans at all.
Kubby/ That's not a concern of mine personally.
Vanderhoef/I had some wording that I had just written for you're development statement
and it was partially yours. And I can say that although the traditional design
concepts described may be preferred conventional subdivision designs that
meet the City Code development standards will be acceptable.
(All Talking)
Vanderhoef/The Code development somehow or another I want to get that.
Franklin/ That's a given.
(All Talking)
Vanderhoef/It goes without saying but then it's recognized by more people.
Franklin/
What that loses Dee is the reference to the planning principles. The
principles that are articulated on pages 8-10 in the plan. Because it doesn't
mention those at all. I guess that was the only place where if you were going
to ask me to respond to the Home Builders Association that is one of the
things that I think is a critical point to get in there.
Vanderhoef/Okay the planning principle.
Franklin/ And I don't know that they have.
Vanderhoef/(can't hear)...the code?
Franklin/
Pardon me? No, the principles are the guidelines, they're the ideas, they're
the policies statements. They're not codified. At some point well, preserving
the hundred-year flood plain is a natural corridor, so when you're laying
something out what you try to do and still make the development work is
avoid the hundred year natural hundred year flood plane and preserve it as a
natural corridor. That's what you try to do.
Vanderhoef/That's in the comp plan.
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Franklin/
That's in the comp plan, now the Code says that you can build in the
hundred-year flood plain but you've got to elevate the habitable space to one
foot above the hundred year flood plain. So, the Code says you build in the
flood plain, what the plan says is that you should try to preserve that flood
plane as a natural corridor. So, when you're laying out the subdivision, when
Larry's doing his layout of the subdivision, what he tries to do is to get the
open space requirement that is in the Code, in the neighborhood open space
requirement. Maybe somewhere around the flood plain area so that it's space
is kept as open space and development is not put there. However, it doesn't
mean that you can't have a lot or 2 or 3 in the flood plain that complies with
the flood plane ordinance. Does that?
O'Donnell/It's all boiling back to we've got this plan to use this guide.
Franklin/ That' s all a plan ever is.
O'Donnell/That's right. But we're going to put a disclaimer in there saying you don't
have to follow it.
Franklin/ No no no and that should not be misunderstood.
O'Donnell/You have follow the infrastructure plan but ...
Franklin/ No that should, you don't ...
(All Talking)
Franklin/ You don't have to make it look exactly like this picture.
Kubby/
But you have to follow the principles that underlie why that picture looks that
way.
Franklin/
Right, it has to do with the preservation of open space it has to do with the
interconnectedness of streets, it has to do with providing pedestrian bicycle
ways, all that stuff.
O'Donnell/The complaint was everybody thought the plan was getting too detailed.
Well, that's important it's your investment.
Norton/ Yeah, but I mean it is somewhat more detailed than the original one.
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O'Donnell/That's right, and should it be detailed that's the question...
(All Talking)
Franklin/ There is a statement...
(All Talking)
O'Donnell/...and I don't think it should be.
Kubby/ Do you have a problem with the sentence that...
Franklin/ Can I read you a sentence from here?
O'Donnell/I don't have a problem with your sentence.
Franklin/ Okay. Page 11 the Land use scenarios are intended to be general guides.
Lehman/ Just a minute, Karin.
Franklin/ Okay.
Lehman/ OK.
Thornberry/Okay where now?
Franklin/ Page 11 under Neighborhood Planning. The last paragraph there in that first
section. The Land view scenarios are intended to be general guides. An
indication of how development may occur neighborhood by neighborhood. It
is possible that specific land uses shown on the land use scenario may not
develop in the exact locations depicted, but decisions regarding development
should adhere generally to the planning principles set forth in this plan. Does
that make sense to you all?
Champion/It makes sense to me.
Norton/ Even (can't hear) streets that doesn't call out otherwise (can't hear).
Thornberry/It goes on to say traditional neighborhood development.
Franklin/ Describing a type.
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Thornberry/And then it doesn't say really too much about conventional.
Franklin/
Okay, that was where we going to look at on page 13 at the end of that
section about design, adding language that speaks to conventional
subdivision design indicating that this is an acceptable method of
development provided it meets the planning principles outlined in the plan
and those are the ones on page 8-10.
Kubby/ I thought that there was a, almost everybody agreed to that sentence. Right?
Lehman/
Okay, I think we're there, but now we all received copies of the questions
that the Home Builders gave us a month or so ago. There's also copies of
Larry Schnittjer's questions to the comments, we've received answers to
those questions from the staff.
Franklin/ Yes, yes.
Lehman/
We now have received a letter from the Home Builders where they list 4
items, the first one of which you have addressed, where it says add language
recognizing initial development as a viable choice. I think we've said that's
probably something that's okay. The next one they ask for and I guess I'm
just looking for a response, included a detailed list of available incentives for
traditional design. I find that very difficult.
Franklin/
In traditional design, by it's very definition, one looks at higher densities as a
possibility when you're doing the layout. It looks at reduced set backs. It
looks at the potential for narrower streets. Those are things that are built into
the concept. We can list those. It does not include tax increment financing.
It does not include per se shared infrastructure costs, but I will point out that
the City has already taken steps in doing that. When you decided in your
Capital Improvement Program to extend Court Street, I believe that the
reasoning for the justifying that extension of Court Street was to enable the
further development of Windsor Ridge, not because it was single family
detached housing but because it was a mix of housing. That was the public
benefit for us putting that project ahead of schedule, at the developer's
request. So we do share in those costs already. The expedited review and
approval of development plans, that's something we consider I you know
that' s up to you. But again that would be a Code change that would evolve
from this plan.
Lehman/ Well, wouldn't it be possible to list the sort of things that incentives for
traditional design may include and just list them so that there's no it's
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impossible to look at that map and say that this area we can do this and this
area we can do that, but listing the possible alternative things that you've just
listed to me is fine but to say that they're available in every instance is a
mistake.
Kubby/ I don't know I don't know I don't feel the need to list those things.
Lehman/ I don't know that I do either.
Kubby/ That all part of how we do business.
Thornberry/What's that? What was that?
Rockwell/A lot of those are listed in the comp plan under no traditional (can't hear).
Franklin/ You need to come to the microphone.
Thomberry/I didn't understand, I didn't hear what Karen just said.
Kubby/
Well, I mean, Melody kind of said where I was going and how we do
business, we share costs we have directed Planning and Zoning to look at
accepting narrower streets and to look at smaller lot sizes and those are part
of traditional development as well as there are things outlined in the comp
plan (can't hear).
Franklin/ And are they are discussed in the plan
Lehman/ So they're there anyway.
Norton/
Surely there would be one in a certain situation where you got a single loaded
street to make it into that traditionally.
Franklin/ That' s specifically stated in the plan.
Lehman/ We say that now.
Kubby/
I mean there may be to make everybody more comfortable, maybe there's a
common sentence at the beginning of every district plan that says, all City
Codes have to be met and please refer to the broader guidelines of the comp
plan, or something, so that all those things are mentioned as a to remind
people that this is attached to those other documents and it can be
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incorporated into every single plan we have so we don't have to repeat this
discussion eight more times.
(All Talking)
Vanderhoef/That is a good start Karen.
Kubby/ Because it's a reminder a little crevice or something.
Vanderhoef/It certainly has possibilities because the plans get picked up and the more
specific they get the more I recognize that people hang their hats on the part
they want to see.
Kubby/ And that's kind of the cue for new residents who want to get involved in their
neighborhood because ofrezoning or because of something they want to see
done. They read that preface or whatever it becomes they'll know there are
other documents this is attached to I need to do further investigation.
Developers rather...
Vanderhoef/I think that's a real good idea.
(All Talking)
Norton/ You can't do much more than (cant' hear) possibilities because there's no
way to say that (can't hear) transfers are going to be permitted.
Kubby/ ...just saying look at these other documents in connection with this one that
might be helpful. I don't personally feel the need to do that but if it helps
communication on for many sectors I think it's not a bad idea.
(All Talking)
Vanderhoef/What if someone comes and says specifically and want to see the Northeast
plan will we also hand them a comprehensive plan or will we only hand them
a Northeast plan?
Franklin/ Depends on what they want to pay for.
(All Talking)
Franklin/ It says in the very first page the Northeast District Plan is the third in the
series of District Plans to be included in Iowa City's Comprehensive Plan
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Iowa City Beyond 2000. Now that we can beef up and make reference to the
compliance with the Codes, I'm not sure about the flow.
Lehman/ Karin don't most of the incentives that you thought they are mentioned in
here at one place or the other are they not?
Franklin/ They are integral to traditional neighborhood development.
Lehman/ We've we already have them so they are in here.
Franklin/ Yeah, not tax increment financing
Lehman/ Well we're not going to put that in there anyway.
Franklin/ And not we don't have anything on expedited review and approval of
development plans.
(All Talking)
Lehman/ That' s a Code issue.
(All Talking)
Kubby/ That's not about the Noaheast District Plan that's a bigger broader issue.
Champion/That's something we do individually a lot of.
Franklin/ Right, but everything else density allowances, reduced lot sizes, modified
street standards, reduced set backs, and shared infrastructure costs are all
mentioned in the plan.
Lehman/ Right, now so basically we've covered that point already in the plan. Adding
photographs illustrating conventional developments I guess I don't know that
that that' s.
Kubby/ Look on page 12 look on page 22.
(All Talking)
Thornberry/What Karin just got through saying is not just, Karin Franklin said, it's not
just the words in here it's the pictures too. You just got through saying that
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a little bit ago. Think that both pictures need to be in there, there's one
picture of conventional.
Lehman/ Conventional.
Thornberry/Conventional.
Kubby/ No, no that's not true.
Thornberry/All fight, show me another one.
Kubby/ Page 12 and page 22. And I just looked for a second. I'm sure there's
probably more examples. They're not really there as positive examples,
but...
Franklin/ Well, maybe on page...
Thornberry/Well they're saying 22 ....
Franklin/ On 22 it's yeah ....
Thornberry/That's not exactly what I'm after and I don't think the Builders are either.
(All Talking)
Franklin/ Maybe onpage 117 11 and 12 under Neighborhood Planning. Yeah ldon't
think that's quite what they had in mind Karen.
(All Talking)
Franklin/ Under the section Neighborhood Planning a paragraph on what conventional
subdivision design is. Just as we have one on traditional neighborhood and
on conservation neighborhood design with the preferential statement being at
the end of this whole section. So we basically are talking about
neighborhood planning, describe conventional, describe traditional, describe
conservation, and then have the preference statement.
Norton/ Yea that's proper yea.
Lehman/ Okay.
Kubby/ One of the reasons...
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Champion/...go ahead Karen.
Kubby/
One of the reasons we, this plan is different than other ones, is because we're
finding that conventional developments aren't really, at least for the
Noaheast District, according to all the public input is not really meeting the
desires of how neighborhoods are created. In terms of infrastructure and how
things are laid out. So, that' s why there's this preference and so I mean it
kind of cause I really want to challenge the development community to open
up to these new principles and maybe even with having the sentence in there
about conventional is okay, as along as it meets the principles. That a
conventional, it won't be conventional anymore if it meets those principles
it's not really conventional so I don't really...
Franklin/ Well I think we get kind of messed up in terminology too.
Lehman/ I think that 's right.
Franklin/
When we start talking about conventional and about traditional those words
have a lot of baggage with them. It depends on where you are as to what' s
negative or what' s positive and so I think we need to in the plan define what
that conventional is that we're talking about and focus on the positive
attributes that we want development to take which is in those planning
principles on page 8-10.
Thornberry/I agree with you Karin except that you've got the pictures of them quote
unquote traditional houses with the porches with the other things whether
they be brown stones whether they be you know people, traditional older
looking houses. Now I don't see any houses that for example, Haywood
Belle's house. I don't see a picture of his house in here, it's pretty modern.
Franklin/ Where 's he live? We'll get a picture of his house.
Thornberry/It's a lot of glass and it's on.
Franklin/ Oh, Haywood Belle's house?
Thornberry/Yeah.
Franklin/ Ayee!
(All Talking)
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Franklin/ With marble from Italy?
(All Talking)
Thomberry/Excuse me I want to say I'm just saying what the builders are saying is hey
I'm looking at these pictures and I see a lot of peaked roofs and dormers and
things is this what you want to see planning department?
Franklin/ That was to illustrate setbacks.
Thornberry/I understand illustrations. And you did mention it's not only the words but
the illustrations in there of what we're looking for but I don't see anything
other than peaked roofs and dormers.
Franklin/ Can you? Okay.
(All Talking)
Thornberry/That's true, that's true preferred, but it doesn't say what also is acceptable.
Norton/ You've got the Frank Lloyd Wright house in there too.
(All Talking)
Thomberry/There's one picture in here in this whole book that says something is okay to
have it and it doesn't even say that explicitly. What it says is, on the other
page that Ka~n referenced is this not okay and it's a bad example.
Franklin/ It says encouraged, encourage, encourage streetscapes, that emphasize the
residential appearance of homes rather than.
Thornberry/I understand that Karin all I'm saying is there aren't any other pictures of the
things that are also acceptable.
Champion/You're all really not very polite, I've been trying to say that for 10 minutes.
Lehman/ Go Connie.
(All Talking)
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Champion/
You know there is a great fear about the developers about this plan. The
plans are fairly new. The plans are more specific than our past plans. But it
does have a tremendous amount of flexibility in it. I 'm going to support it
along with the changes that Karin is talking about. And you know what? If
it becomes such a problem for developers, I'm not expecting them to develop
property and not make money on it. I mean, that's not a goal of mine. But I
think that they can make money doing this but I don't know that. But if they
came to me as a member of the City Council and said I gorge on this and I
can't make this profitable I'm still going to listen to their alternative. They
seem to have a great fear that the guidelines are strapped in stone and that the
neighborhood has to look like this. That's not this plan never says that, it
never said that. That's what they are reading into it because they this is their
livelihood.
Thornberry/That's correct.
Champion/They're in fear now ofthey're livelihood.
Thornberry/That's right, that' s right and if they build something...
Champion/And somehow we have to reassure them that we do understand that you've
got to make a profit when you do development. At least give it a try lets see
it might work out beautifully.
Norton/ It doesn't make them (can't hear).
Thomberry/That's true I just don't to see any of them go broke trying...
(All Talking)
Franklin/ Nobody does.
Norton/
For example there was an objection on their part to the mix of commercial
and retail and we will have that in certain places and they that's a feature of
this plan but there's a basic objection to it. We are recognizing that many
places now and in these new areas were a single load they were objecting to
that. I think some of the things in there are ones that are controversial, but I
think that they ought to be tried and I don't think there's anyway that we're
gonna stick with something that simply doesn't have an economic viability.
We can't do that. But lets try it.
(All Talking)
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Franklin/ We can.
Thornberry/Well, we can but if we try it and it depends on I guess what kind of problems
the developers...
Franklin/
Okay, for years and years and years the way we have in lots of communities
across the country have looked at developing cities is that, you just keep
adding on single family residential. It just keeps going that way. And
sometimes in the market single family residential is not profitable. Ifthat's
all you can do. The market shifts and sometimes you want to do zero lot
lines and sometimes you want to do duplexes and sometimes you want to do
multi-family. And there are people that want those different kinds of living
arrangements. Well, what we're saying is okay, lets not as a government say
you can't do that, it has to all be single family. That there are opportunities
for that flexibility to be built into plans and that we say that as a community
we are going to allow that to happen. And then when something comes along
like you are going to be dealing with Windsor Ridge. You have in your plans
and in your public policy statements that concept of there are different types
of housing that are going to be built in these areas. And that's out there folks.
So when you move into a place don't expect that as far as your eye can see is
going to be detached single family houses.
Champion/
I think that's a problem that directly relates to this plan because if we don't
support, is it Watts fight? Then we're saying our plans aren't good and now
we're going to change them.
Lehman/
Well, one of the things that you know that I've heard from the very outset on
this is that a concern that this probably more what the plan isn't than what it
is. And you and I have talked Karin, I think that the concerns expressed by
the Home Builders and also by Larry in his letter were answered very well by
the staff and I really feel should be part of this plan making it very apparent
what this plan is and what this plan isn't. I don't hear, I do know the
Council, I don't hear a lot of problems with the plan if in fact it has the kind
of flexibility that it has to have in order to operate. But I think we need to
know.
Champion/Right.
Letunan/
And the builders need to know. And the one area that I've not heard one
word about? The property owners, the people who own that ground out
there, we haven't heard one word from them. A developer or two but we're
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talking about a lot of ground out there that's not owned by developers, it's
owned by individuals and yet we've not heard one word.
(All Talking)
Thomberry/Why should we?
Kubby/ (can't hear).
Lehman/
Why should we? I'll tell you why we should. We are doing things that are
going to have an effect on how their property's developed and the
marketability of the ground. But we haven't heard from those folks at all.
Thornberry/If I owned it you wouldn't hear from me either on this plan. Cause I don't
disagree with the plan and I don't think the ground owners do either in so far
as the amount of money that they can get for that land. I don't think this is
going to enhance the property value.
(All Talking)
Norton/
There is a difference in this plan, there is considerably more effort was
planned on somewhat higher density, than somewhat more mix and
somewhat more retail involvement in a neighborhood way than that has been
traditional. There' s just no doubt about that, that is a change I think people
would recognize that as virtuous change one out of one you presumably
profit but it is slightly different emphasis. I think that's important.
Franklin/ But somewhat is a very important word there, because it 's not a quantum leap
in densities what we're talking about at all.
Thornberry/No it's not a it's not going from a traditional, a normal run of the mill...
Franklin/ What ever the word is.
Thornberry/Conventional, traditional neighborhood to peninsula, now that really is kind
of a quantum leap.
Norton/
It's also somewhat going backward because as Karin points out, as you go
around neighborhoods on the north side and the near south side many of them
actually one in mind is one there are apartment units, there are condo units,
there are big houses there are small houses, there are duplexes and they seem
to work. And people, I think need to get used to the fact that we need we're
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not just sprawl intimately as Karin has suggested. You read all the PM and
all the magazines you get, you know, Bums is trying keep their act together
or whoever it is. By not just getting into sprawl and single family houses
from here to Cedar Rapids, we've got to get a little bit more conservative
about how we proceed. I mean a little bit more density here and there at least
that's an option is to try to encourage people in that. I think it'll probably
relate to affordability as well.
Franklin/ And it also means that it doesn't preclude the option of starter castles. I mean
those are...
Lehman/ What are starter castles?
Champion/(can't hear)
Franklin/ I don't think I'll say specifically since the press is here, but it's those big
houses.
Norton/ Yea, (can't hear).
Kubby/ Emie your.
Franklin/ Haywood Belle' s house.
Kubby/ Your original (can't hear).
Lehman/ Karen.
Kubby/
You were suggesting that the correspondence and response be a part of the
plan and I have some concerns about doing that because then I'd want to do
that with our building codes, we've had a lot of discussion with communities
about how that evolved and how we got to that place. With every single
document we produce our arterial street plan, the neighbors come in and talk,
is it JCCOG about certain aspects. Those things are part of the public record
and they do help clarify I think but I don't want to start doing that because
then I feel like I'd want to start doing it everywhere.
Norton/ Yeah, we've got a million agendas...
(All Talking)
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Champion/The two things that really amaze me about Iowa when I moved here was
number one, how may white houses there were. Cause believe me in
Chicago there are no white houses.
Lehman/ That's because of smog.
(All Talking)
Champion/
Secondly, how spread out houses look and how huge people's lots were and
how far your kids had to walk to school for that very reason and when I lived
in a new development in Iowa City. I lived there for a short period of time,
because I disliked that very intensely. It was a really nice house, a really nice
area, but I really missed that closeness of neighbors, the openness that you
get with it and the different diversity. Cause when I grew up there were
houses, there were apartments that filled the whole block. With 15 small
houses and maybe a big house and a duplex so I grew up with that and I miss
that. So I think people will really like it, maybe not, but those two things
amazed me when I came to Iowa City and I really think you should get this
block vision of what development should look like. I mean, I love the new
development that we lived in, I just didn't like living in it. But I think we
ought to be willing to take some chances and spread out and to do some
different things.
Thornberry/That's what I said, not everybody likes the same thing.
Norton/ Yea that' s fight.
Champion/No they don't.
Norton/ ... 88% want single family homes and I think some of them.
(All Talking)
Norton/
...single family homes can have duplexes nearby. They can have duplexes
nearby, they can have rental properties nearby...
Champion/Right.
Norton/ My goodness we're gonna have an apartment nearby.
Thornberry/Again, some like that and some don't...
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Champion/Because their afraid of property values.
Thomberry/No their not. You don't know what they are afraid of or what they would
like or what they don't like. Some people like that and some people don't. I
don't particularly care to live next to a duplex or a multi-family house I just
don't. I like 2 or 3 acres with a house. That's my thing. Some people like
brownstone...
Norton/ That's called a starter castle right there.
Franklin/ But there ought to be a choice.
Thornberry/That's correct. That's correct and that's what this plan does.
Kubby/
The bottom line is we're talking about lets take this, lets try it, really the
development community are gonna be the ones that try it. We've all agreed
that we agree to the principles of the plan. They're either gouna try to fit a
conventional development in and shift it to fit the principles that it doesn't
already or they are gonna take a chance and try something new and that's
gonna be there decision. Not our decision. Our decision will be evaluating
whether it meets the principles of the plan or not. So it's really there...
Thornberry/So you are telling me, emphatically, I hope, is that because a developer
builds a house or duplex with garages to the front, it will not automatically
out of hand be rejected.
Franklin/ I will tell you that, yes, emphatically.
Thornberry/Okay.
Champion/Emphatically.
Thornberry/Because that was one of the questions early on as you remember.
Norton/ Somebody...
Thornberry/...go ahead.
Norton/
Somebody may say, is there another alternative? But I don't think it's
mandated.
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Thornberry/And the other thing that I'm asking and I'm not sure where it stands on this
plan, are the alleys. Explain to me, it's a possibility but not...
Franklin/ Okay.
Thornberry/Talk to me about alleys.
Franklin/ I had some, Tammy our department secretary, go through and show me all
the places where alleys were mentioned in here.
Thornberry/So you were ready for the question because you knew it was going to come
up.
(All Talking)
Franklin/ Oh, you bet ya, you bet ya.
Thornberry/...that's why I'd like the clarification.
Franklin/ Okay. On page 16 where we encourage a reasonable level of housing
diversity. Duplexes and small lot single family houses have been integrated
into the northeastern portion of the neighborhood where there is flatter terrain
and a grid pattem of streets and alleys is possible.
Thornberry/You don't have to go through each one Karin.
Franklin/ Okay.
Thornberry/I'm just saying what is the, what's the...
Franklin/ When something. OK. When a development project comes in. If the
developer comes in and has a land.
END OF REEL 99-59 SIDE 2
99-63 Side 1
Franklin/ Maintenance and who owns it, that' s what will happen.
Thornberry/Okay, that's all I needed.
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Franklin/ Okay.
O'Donnell/Well there's four things here that the Builders would be comfortable with.
The first one is add language recognizing conventional development.
Lehman/ We've done that.
(All Talking)
O'Donnell/I don't have a problem with that. Add photographs illustrating conventional
development. I'd like to see that.
Norton/ One of those in.
O'Donnell/We might see if have traditional in there we should have conventional.
Franklin/ Well, on that one page where we're going to describe the different types of
development that could occur here we're going to add a section on
conventional development and there are 3 illustrations of each kind.
Lehman/ Page 12.
Franklin/ Do you want a different picture than this one?
O'Donnell/They're all there.
Champion/They're all there.
Franklin/ They're all three are there.
Kubby/ And your saying all these are okay as long as they meet the planning
principal.
(All talking)
Thomberry/... and that's OK.
Franklin/ That is to illustrate a principle and that is what this picture is about what does
it say to you?
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Thornberry/It says, in curved streetscapes that emphasize the residential appearance of
homes period. And take the other picture out and take out the rather than
garages and big front yards.
Norton/ That becomes less clear.
Thornberry/No it doesn't, in curved streetscapes that emphasize the residential
appearance of home.
(All talking)
Norton/ We need some idea of what defines ugly.
Thornberry/Were trying to define ugly. You can't.
Champion/No it says encourage Dean it doesn't say you have to do this.
Thornberry/I understand, I have no problem with encouraged streetscaping.
Champion/If you take the picture out than what are you encouraging?
Thornberry/Your encouraging...
Franklin/ He leaves this picture in.
Thornberry/Take out the right picture, and take out the rather than garages and big front
yards. Maybe somebody would like to live there. Somebody does like to
live there because the mailboxes are there and I see the little flags up.
(All talking)
Kubby/
But we are trying to encourage something different than that because that is
not a streetscape that helps build a feeling ofneighborhoodness.
Thornberry/Maybe it does in the backyard. Maybe people would rather congregate and
visit in the backyard as opposed to the front yard. Isn't that possible, maybe
they have a gazebo out back...
Norton/ Don't have 4 votes to take the picture out.
Thornberry/...shared among all the people around there and they got a swing set back
there.
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Kubby/ So is there a place in Iowa City that you could go take a picture of that
particular place?
Thornberry/You don't know what's there. They don't want you to know.
Norton/ We want illustrations of things that would be discouraged.
Thornberry/I'm just saying that you don't know what's in the back because...
(All Talking)
Franklin/ Are there 4 people who want to take that picture out and change the label?
Thornberry/Yes I do.
Kubby/ No.
O'Donnell/I do.
Vanderhoef/Yes. I'll take it out.
Norton/ No.
Kubby/ No.
Thornberry/You don't want to take the picture out Emie?
Champion/I don't.
Lehman/ I'd really prefer emphasizing the positive rather than the negative but on the
other hand that is not a very attractive building.
(All talking)
Thornberry/Then don't say, geez, look at the picture builders and do what the...
Franklin/ I never said, look at the pictures builders and do what the picture said. I
never have said that.
Thomberry/You said earlier on in this conversation, its not just the words but it's also the
pictures.
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Franklin/ I said that is what has people in a...
Champion/Tiffy.
Franklin/
Yes, thank you Connie. The fact that we have more pictures and more detail
is what has gotten people so immersed in this plan which is a great thing
because were really talking about it. As opposed to doing this and then going
ho-hum and it goes off on a shelf and you don't even, we don't, even
remember what it says.
Champion/Can I ask another quick question of you?
Franklin/ Yes.
Champion/I intend to approve this plan with these changes that we've asked for. This
document is not written in stone. If we find out it doesn't work is it?
Franklin/ Oh, God no nothing is.
Champion/OK I didn't.
O'Donnell/We've said over and over again though, Connie, that once we do write
something down, it has a tendency to become the rule. There is one specific
part in this book that says alleys will provide access to utilities and so forth
and that's a pretty strong statement...
(All Talking)
Franklin/ Okay, it's on page 22.
O'Donnell/What does it say?
Franklin/
And it's under the build streets that enhance neighborhood quality.
Traditional neighborhood development, this is describing how you can use
traditional neighborhood development with a modified grid street system will
help disperse vehicular traffic more evenly throughout the quadrant. The use
of alleys will provide adequate access to utilities and parking while
minimizing paved areas and extensive curb cuts in front of residences.
Alleys need not be used in cases were marked graphical changes exists or
large lot development is proposed. The intention there was to indicate what
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the use of alleys can accomplish. And if that says to you that alleys are
required...
O'Donnell/It says to me alley will be used for utilities.
Thornberry/Interpretation.
Franklin/ No, it says they provide adequate access to utilities that they are away, when
they are present they provide adequate access.
(All talking)
Norton/ Leave out the will.
(All Talking)
Franklin/ Okay
Champion/Let's put alleys, where present, will provide adequate access.
Norton/ Alley' s provide.
Franklin/ Could provide.
Champion/Sure I don't have any problem with that.
O'Donnell/That I think we could, people could live with that.
Champion/Okay, then I'll vote for that.
(All Talking)
Kubby/ Another interpretation of that is that when there are alleys utilities could be in
the back or it could be in the front and it matters what our intent is when
alleys are present what is our intent.
Norton/ Alleys provide the opportunity to put those things in the back don't they?
Vanderhoef/And that for me depends on what the standard is for the building of alleys
and the maintenance of alleys and those additional things.
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Lehman/ But I think Karen's point is, it 's a valid point, alleys when used will contain
the utilities.
Kubby/ Right because that's one of the...
Franklin/ Well than we can put in a clause that say if alleys are used the alleys will
provide adequate access.
Champion/Right.
(All talking)
Norton/
Or may provide. It might be a situation where the alley is good back there
but the use of the other things aren't. I think you ought to say they may
provide or can provide an opportunity to put the utilities there but they might
not always. You might want alleys in cases were the utilities aren't in a
collector.
Franklin/ If alleys are used alleys may provide adequate access...
Kubby/
I mean, you know you have such a hard...I don't know...it's we're always
we get back to one of the beginning things that Karin said is that when we're
too specific people have a problem with it and when we're not specific
enough. And I think we just need to be comfortable with what we're trying
to do here.
Norton/ That's what we're doing.
Thornberry/That's what we're trying to get.
Kubby/ Well I think we're trying to water it down so that...
(All talking)
Norton/
...Because everybody agrees that alleys are appropriate in certain cases and
perhaps substantially not in other cases and we're just saying there a good
option to consider they might give you an opportunity to put the utilities back
there and make the streetscape more attractive so take a look at alleys.
(All talking)
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Vanderhoef/You might as well talk about putting utilities underground instead of above
ground that's a whole big issue...
Franklin/ Hang on a second here something from Scott.
Scott Kugler/Alleys may be used to provide.
Franklin/ May be used to provide?
Champion/That's good.
Norton/ That's good lets put utilities underground I'm all for that.
Thornberry/You can put utilities underground without having alleys.
Norton/ I know that, it'll cost a lot of money though.
Thornberry/I don't have alleys in my neighborhood and I've got underground utilities.
Franklin/ Okay, I'm hearing that there 's probably a majority that would like us to
tweak page 22 to get some...
Lehman/ Yes, I think that's right.
Franklin/ Language in there that is closer to what we intended.
Lehman/ Are there other changes that we feel strongly about?
Vanderhoef/While your on that alleys sentence in there I still, even though you sent me
the information on the alley and the paving. I agree per lot that it is less
paving. I do not agree that it is less paving over a total block area or what
have you. If when the density goes up even though we have less paving
because we have a small frontage front and back so we're paving a street in
front, we're paving an alley in behind, we're paving a driveway in. By
necessity, it's a smaller amount of paving for that lot, but it is not a smaller
amount of paving for the entire block because of instead of putting in 5
houses in this block, with 5 driveways, were going to put in maybe 8 or 9
houses in that block with the smaller frontage. So we end up doing, we have
the same amount of street than we've added on alleys and we've added on
additional. So were going to have more runoff if we put alleys in.
Kubby/ We're going to have more people housed.
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Vanderhoef/We're going to have more people housed.
Kubby/ And that's one of our goals.
Vanderhoef/And we're going to have more paving. So when we say, while minimizing
paved areas, that to me is inaccurate unless we quantify that to the lot and
then...
(All Talking)
Lehman/ Well, Dee it says minimizing paved areas and extensive curb cuts in front.
Vanderhoef/But it doesn't necessarily do that.
(All Talking)
Champion/Sure it does.
Vanderhoef/In the front, but it is increasing paving totally.
Norton/Total
Thornberry/Well, I don't know if it is or not.
(All Talking)
Franklin/ Well, I think you could debate that.
Champion/(can't hear) alleys.
Vanderhoef/Depends on whether somebody wants to connect it in the back.
(All Talking)
Vanderhoef/Go look Irving Drive. The ones we just are buying and selling out there.
Those are connected to the house so the driveway comes all the way to the
house.
Franklin/ I think you can debate that if you look at it on a larger scale. Beyond a block.
Vanderhoef/Because of the density transfer?
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Franklin/ Because either of the density transfer or if you look at it a little more
cosmically in terms of the whole community.
(All Laughing)
Franklin/ Not cosmetically, just a little bit bigger. That if we are a more concentrated
population we are more compact then we're not going out as far then you
have overall less paving. Now that's taking it.
Vanderhoef/The density of transfer?
Franklin/ Essentially. Yea yea.
Vanderhoef/Yes, sure
(All Talking)
Franklin/ And so I whether you say that the concept.
Vanderhoef/In an area if you take block by block and decrease the size of your lot and
you put more houses in there, you decrease the amount of paving per that lot
and increase the amount of paving per that lot.
Norton/ Why do we have to make that decision?
Vanderhoef/Well because I'm concerned about the green space around them.
Kubby/ Around each lot you mean?
Vanderhoef/Around this area and toward where the density transfer goes.
(All talking)
Vanderhoef/Well, when they keep talking about alleys creating less paving I keep saying
when somebody drives up and looks at it it's not what they're.
Norton/ It might not in all cases.
Lehman/ But that' s optional.
Vanderhoef/That's fight.
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Norton/ Is there some way to put it so that it may or may not?
Vanderhoef/That what I want to do is find some way to state this or else we just don't
say.
Under certain circumstances alley's may reduce or something like that?
Norton/
(All talk.)
Lehman/
It says it reduces the amount of paved area in front of the building which is
accurate is that not true?
Norton/ That part is accurate.
Lehman/ That 's what it says.
Vanderhoef/The use of alleys provide adequate access to utilities and parking while
minimizing paved areas and extensive curb cuts. Yes. But it doesn't say
anything about increasing the total amount of paving.
Champion/But you don't know ifthere's going to be increased.
Vanderhoef/It pretty much does.
Champion/It doesn't say it decreases the pavement it says it decreases the pavement in
the front of the house. That's the whole idea.
Vanderhoef/So lets put something in there that says and they may increase the.
Vanderhoef/No I'm real serious about the alley being a whole lot more paving.
Norton/ I don't know that, I don't know how that they are.
(All talking).
O'Donnell/I just wanted crystal clear that alley's are an option not for plan.
Champion/We've done that.
(All talking)
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Yeah, it's a matter of whether they reduce the paving total and it may or may
not. I guess I.
Kubby/ My other question is do other people here feel Dee's concern about the
language?
Vanderhoef/ And it may well increase the cost of because you have the labor to lay
down all this.
Thornberry/Or they can do it and pay for it.
(All talk.)
Champion/That's right.
Lehman/ Other concerns.
Vanderhoef/With the whole plan?
Lehman/ Yes.
Vanderhoef/Yes.
Lehman/ Well lets get them going. Cause we're 5 minutes past the completion time.
Vanderhoef/OK. I would still like to consider a little changing of the Captain Irish and
Scott Boulevard. And I'll tell you I have two concerns with how we're laid
out right now and Karin brought me the original plan. This is, this was the
original design that staff had suggested.
Franklin/ Well, not exactly no.
Vanderhoef/Well, had drawn up.
Franklin/ This was something that was a topic of discussion during the commissions,
correct Bob?
Bob Miklo/There were 2 altematives.
Vanderhoef/That were shown. And I recognize the other what we have on the big plan is
what is' shown here. My concern with the way it's shown on the big map are
twofold. The way the big map shows it we have moved the extension that at
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Norton/
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some point in time could go across 1-80. And what it does is it cuts the center
of where we are showing RS-5 on both sides, so we're cutting off a very
small piece of the plan, not shown them where the, okay, you're cutting off
that one little piece that is right now shown on the plan as an RS-5. And then
there's another piece to the east and south of it on the other side that is also
RS-5. So I think either one of two things needs to happen, we either need to
make that connection a bit further to the east to make one neighborhood of all
RS-5 or we might be considering a different kind of zoning for that whether it
be business park or something like that knowing full well that this is an
arterial that we're planning.
Norton/
What did you originally call that street that was going out, not Scott itself,
but you gave it a new name some way on the plan.
Franklin/ Knoll Drive.
Norton/ Knoll Drive yeah that was going out.
(All talk)
Thornberry/Or they can do it and pay for it.
Vanderhoef/And on top of that it has gone a considerable ways west to where it will have
to come back at this angle east to go across the highway. So that's here, yea,
it swings back to a (can't hear).
Norton/ But not very much further west.
Vanderhoef/But where they show on the big map where it will connect on the other side
is further east.
Franklin/
The point where it crosses the interstate is about where it always was when
we were looking conceptually of Scott Boulevard just going, whoops, going
straight north. What this was doing was responding to a lot of the input at the
workshops about this whole issue of 1 st Ave. and Captain Irish.
Vanderhoef/Right.
Franklin/
And wanting to provide an alternative that would ostensibly at least give the
path of least resistance as this way as opposed to someone having to come
and make a turn to go south. It was feeling on the part of many of the
participants that if you had to make that 90 degree turn that people would
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take 1st Ave., well I mean the people that are going to take 1st Ave. are going
to take 1 st Ave. and the ones that want to go way over are gonna go way over
regardless. There's two issues really. One is whether we change this
intersection to be over here farther, the issue has to do with this bit of
residential here which may be more appropriately office research park
because of that aaerial whether it's this alignment. Or that one.
Vanderhoef/It's something that concerns (can't hear). The rest of the other concern that
states my first consent. My second concern is with the winding and not
having the "T" intersection if you put the other map up will you please? We
have right now come into Iowa City from the east Hoover Highway. And we
are developing more and more to the east within our growth boundaries right
now and the adjacent town West Branch is growing. We are continuing to
have more commuters that come and go through here and this Rochester is
our arterial to bring people into town. And what I see with Captain Irish
being swung clear over that way and not this "T" intersection that as that
section to the east of the Captain Irish when all of that starts developing I
would hope that those people would be headed towards Captain Irish not
down to Rochester and if there isn't a good connection for that area to get
onto Captain Irish they'll probably just drop down onto Rochester and
increase the density and it's going to get more and more congested all the
time and at certain times of the day it's quite congested as is. So I want to be
sure that we're able to have not necessarily an arterial but at least a collector
that goes east into that flatter land which will be more of a grid pattern over
there.
Kubby/
You mean take those 3 cul de sacs in a row you're concerned about that that
you'd like something to go over to Captain Irish more directly?
Vanderhoef/Well what I was thinking Karen was that if we moved whatever that arterial
instead of Knoll Drive move it a little bit further to the east and then took
where Captain Irish is swinging up, we look at the topography on it and
there's it could be swung a little bit further east and then we could make a
connection there at the noah end of the big ravine.
Franklin/ So that you have a street coming over that way.
Norton/
I thought there was some interest in keeping the kind of a if that was the
center that intersection of Knoll and Captain Irish as sketched was going to
be the kind of like the center of this northeast region when wasn't that also a
location wasn't it for some mild neighborhood commercial?
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Franklin/
Norton/
Yea, fight in there.
But that would now become a little off center though wouldn't it?
Vanderhoef/Well it could be moved over just a little bit but some how or another to
make. I prefer the "T" pattem so that that can continue on east as a collector
to keep that traffic off of Rochester.
Kubby/ Is there enough density there to warrant a collector street?
Franklin/ Yes, for a collector I guess I just question it depends on where these folks are
going. I mean if they're going downtown or to the University they're going
to go down to Rochester regardless of whether this is the way it is or it's that
"T" intersection.
Vanderhoef/But if there headed.
Franklin/ If they're headed noah then their going to come down.
Vanderhoef/The area of the industrial area or the park, the ACT's, the or all of those or if
they commute.
Franklin/ They would come fight over.
Vanderhoef/Via the interstate that will be the way they will go over there.
Franklin/ Why wouldn't they just come over on the street system that comes through
here and over?
Norton/ That's the way they would go to ACT.
Kubby/ Why would they go south to go noah?
Franklin/ Yeah, why would they go down here to go.
Thornberry/What's the location of the west side of the golf course?
Franklin/ Right there.
Thomberry/O.K., could you show it to me on the other map?
Vanderhoef/It doesn't go all the way down to Rochester though.
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Franklin/ Which one, which one?
Thomberry/The other one.
Franklin/ This one.
Thomberry/Yes.
Vanderhoef/It's not on there.
Thornberry/I know but approximately, it would be that line maybe?
Kubby/ No, it's still over here.
Thornberry/Oh OK.
Franklin/ I think.
Norton/
I don't know.
Is this discussion all the same and is the layout of Captain Irish and the route
shown here to the so called City route as distinct from the citizens option? Is
that firm? Are we (can't hear).
Franklin/ No, it's not engineered.
Vanderhoef/It's shorter isn't it?
Franklin/
What this one, (pause), the quote citizens plan had it coming over here a little
bit, correct you guys back there? And basically what yea it would be a little
bit shorter in terms of coming down to Rochester but not a whole lot. This
alignment in terms of topography it was going through the cuts of fields and
so forth it seem to be a better place.
Vanderhoef/Straight north one doesn't work through Seven Sisters.
Franklin/ No that topography 's too rough.
Norton/ But the other one's shorter?
Franklin/ And this point allowed us to use the road as the damn for that regional Storm
Water Detention sites up here.
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Vanderhoef/Further east noah of the damn.
Franklin/ Yes.
Vanderhoef/A bit and then you have it can "T" over into what would go straight on up.
Franklin/ I think the main point is whether Captain Irish comes and "T 's" into Scott or
not. Because even with this alignment here you can get a system of streets
you know, this could be different but you take a system of streets that gets
this over to here maybe this cul de sac crosses this drainage way and comes
over and connects rather than this one. You see what I'm saying? So that it
gets access to this area and satisfies that concern about people going down to
Rochester without even doing that having
Vanderhoef/Wherever that connection can be made to make a "T" intersection because at
some point it may well have to be lighted.
Kubby/ But those.
Vanderhoef/Probably not for a long time but it could.
Kubby/ Those cul de sacs are illustrated there aren't they because of topography to
show streets (can't hear).
(All talk).
Vanderhoef/There are problems to the north of it.
Franklin/ Yea, and it was to maintain kind of a linear park concept in here I believe,
right, Bob?
Miklo/ It was mostly because of topography.
Lehman/ Right.
Vanderhoef/And there's one up above the cul de sac that could go a little further a little
straighter over to Captain Irish I guess is what I'm saying.
Miklo/ This may address your concern if we show this as a collector going over. Is
that?
Vanderhoef/If it "T"d into Captain Irish that would be wonderful.
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(All talk).
Franklin/ Instead of having to tum there.
Vanderhoef/Yes we do have some commercial planned up in there and it might get
moved a block or so away but it would "T" things up and make it.
Norton/ Give it a straighter shot.
Kubby/ I feel like we're designing the map and that's not what the plan is about.
Vanderhoef/But the point is, the road is and where my concern is that road that will
extend at some point in time over interstate 80 and to come around Captain
Irish and then come back over and then try to go up verses a "T" and go up.
Franklin/ Which gets to that the issue in the workshops and I mean that's what it's
really about whether your where your preferred lines of travel are in terms of
coming from this point and coming from up here. And I think what Dee is
advocating is that there'd be some that this be a more direct shot. Yes?
Vanderhoef/And then it leaves a bigger which could be a RSo5 neighborhood to the west
side of where that arterial is instead of cutting of just one little piece that
might turn into commercial.
Miklo/ I don't think we specified that that was RS-5. And it is about 25 acres so it's
not a real small area.
Lehman/ Is that RS-5?
Vanderhoef/Not on the west side of Crawl.
Franklin/ Right here.
Lehman/ Right.
Vanderhoef/That isn't 25 acres is it?
Miklo/ It's around 20 acres.
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Lehman/
Realistically ifthat's RS-5 for residential there is no way that road is ever
going to go across the interstate, nobody's gonna tolerate that kind of traffic
going through an RS-5.
Vanderhoef/That's why I'd like to see this.
(All talk.)
Miklo/ In that particular plan it doesn't say RS-5.
Franklin/
No but it does indicate over in here more of a single family and I think that
part is a valid point but whether you move this road over to here or leave it
like this I don't think has a marked impact on this over here. What is
different is whether there is direct access this way or this is perceived as
being more direct. And that's what these intersection questions were all
about.
Norton/
It all depends a little bit on whether you ultimately end up with this particular
on line or line for Captain Ifish or whether you go the so called citizens route
which is the shorter route and in my judgment somewhat more attractive for
going from ACT to the south side than this big loop back north. If that were
changed then of course I think that intersection would move some way the
way you might want. So maybe this is too fine a grain to get into I'm not
sure, maybe I agree with Karen that maybe we're detailed too much here.
Lehman/ I think that 's fight.
Kubby/
We're buying into the thing but the pictures are what's gonna happen you
know, we're falling into that trap.
Vanderhoef/And I fall into the picture of if it's there.
Norton/ The road layout is the big one.
Vanderhoef/The people well may say Oh well then this is gonna be single family
dwellings in this area and they wouldn't put an artefial through a single
family dwelling area and it just gets tangled.
Rockwell/
I just wanted to clarify Dean you were talking about the citizens plan and
when that was brought up the idea was that that would be instead of 1 st Ave..
going through.
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Norton/
Rockwell/
Norton/
Rockwell/
Norton/
O 'Donnell/
Lehman/
Kubby/
Franklin/
Norton/
O'Donnell/
Lehman/
Council Work Session Page 45
Oh I see.
And if you put 1 st Ave.. through and then tuck that major artefial closer to
1 st Ave.. that would promote cut through traffic in the neighborhood and
that's what we want to get away from.
So that' s why this bigger bolded area.
Right and it also will disturb less environmentally sensitive land.
Okay, okay. Well take another look at the point that Steve's making I think
they could all be accommodated without changing the plan that's my point.
I do too.
Well.
I mean so could we recap really bfiefly we gonna put that sentence in, would
you summarize changes?
Right, what I have is that we're gonna modify the on page 11 through 13, the
Neighborhood Planning section and include a section on conventional
development and then have the preference language at the end. We will put
something in the preface about the code and then on page 22 we'll make
some changes to that stuff about the alley's. That's what I have as changes.
Moving fight along.
Well it shouldn't be.
No one else has the interest in that making an attachment to this which
include the responses from the staff to the developers questions.
Kubby/ No.
Thornberry/What do you mean?
Kubby/ The correspondence.
Lehman/ The correspondence from the developers on the response from the staff.
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Thornberry/Oh I think it should be. I think that's what they said before was that maybe
that should be put in indicating 30 years from now that there was some
discussion as to exactly.
Lehman/ We won't be around Dean.
Thornberry/I won't either.
Norton/ But people can find that record. It doesn't need to be part of the plan. If
that' s the case then we're gonna have a.
(All talk.)
Thornberry/Attachment a is.
Kubby/ But this goes to part of our comp plan, if we do that for every comp plan our
comp plan is gonna be.
Thornberry/Thicker?
Kubby/ Yeah, and it's not the course it's not fairness to them.
Thornberry/That's what I think we're after Karen, is fairness.
(All talk.)
Thornberry/I think 30 to 50 years from now I think they're going to forget how much
time was spent on this not only by us but by the neighbors.
(All talk.)
Thornberry/Pardon me?
Norton/ There'll be an appendix in there.
Franklin/ We have an appendix in about the citizen workshops.
Norton/ (can't hear) not the conclusions.
O'Donnell/Well what do you think Ernie?
Lehman/ Well I think it should be a part of it.
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(All talk.)
Kubby/
... everything attached to every document. Out of fairness so that people
understand the evolution of the conversation.
Eleanor Dilkes/I think you've got, I'm sorry can I?
(All talk.)
Dilkes/ Emie.
Vanderhoef/May I offer the possibility if we're putting in the citizen input from the
meetings this is a group of citizens that also are putting in.
Norton/ Who didn't come to the citizens meetings, that's tough.
Thornberry/Hey they had 2 meetings with staff.
Norton/ Late, late.
Thornberry/Oh what date was it that meeting was, I don't think that's germane. I think
there was some concems by the people who are developing this whole area
and I think they're concerns ought to be at least mentioned.
Dilkes/ Can I, Ernie can I comment here?
Lehman/ Eleanor.
Dilkes/
You've got a whole ream of correspondence that's arguably relevant to
interpretation of this document if it gets to that down the road and I think to
put 1 item of that correspondence as an addendurn to the plan is sort of a
dangerous road to go down. So it seems to me if somebody's interested in
seeing how this plan evolved they go to the record and they can see all the
correspondence that lead to this.
Thornberry/I don't know if the legal if there's a legal problem with that is there?
Dilkes/
I think there can be a question of interpretation and you've got 1 specific set
of questions that is an addendure to the plan actually part of the plan as
opposed to lots of other correspondence that what is just of record in the
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clerks office? Does that elevate that that particular correspondence to a
higher level than the correspondence that's of record in the clerks office?
Thornberry/So what I'm getting what I'm hearing from you is that there could be a legal
problem by putting an attachment A in here regarding the questions that the
home builders had is that what you're saying?
Dilkes/ Yes.
Thomberry/Okay.
Vanderhoef/Okay so then why would we take out the citizen input?
Franklin/ It 's not the citizen input it is a list of people who participated it was in your
packet and it basically says what the process was, that's all. It's not what
they said.
Vanderhoef/The process.
Franklin/ Yeah, of how we went through the workshops and you know all that stuff.
Vanderhoef/If we're going to be dealing with that same process with every work shop is
that necessary?
Franklin/ Well, you all can look at it, it 's in your packets. It 's in your packet and you
can see if you want to put in there or not.
Vanderhoef/Maybe that isn't a necessary piece to put in there.
Thornberry/We better not put it in it might not be legal. We better get a legal opinion on
that.
Norton/ What party is concerned about it?
Lehman/ Well it 's in the packet this week. It's a list of the neighbors who participated.
Kubby/ I don't have a problem leaving it out. I don't have a problem with leaving it
out.
Champion/I don't have a problem with leaving it out either.
(All talk.)
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Norton/ It's part of the plan.
Lehman/ Do we have other comments on the plan?
Vanderhoef/But they added this other.
Thornberry/Well, there's an attachment from the neighborhoods.
Lehman/ There won't be. We just said we'd leave it out.
Norton/ It's all part of the plan I would think even more than the home builders
comments are.
Lehman/ Right.
Vanderhoef/I think the (can't hear) leave it out.
Norton/ It's part of the record but not part of the plan.
Thornberry/I agree.
Kubby/ Because in the minutes and I think it's part of the public record they
participated somewhere, right?
Franklin/ Yeah, yeah.
Thornberry/What was that? I didn't.
Kubby/ That there's some place in the public record that shows who participated and
in the neighborhood meetings in the district meetings. Cause it was more
than neighbors that were there the whole community had access to that
process.
Norton/ OK yes I know what you mean.
Lehman/ Okay tomorrow night we're gonna continue we're gonna have the public
heating on the comp. plan for the Northeast district. What's your pleasure?
Do we conclude the public heating at that point?
Yes.
Champion/
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Norton/
Lehman/
Champion/
Norton/
Council Work Session
I'd say we ought to get moving.
Well depending on what we get from the public.
Lehman/
Kubby/
Norton/
(All talk.)
Franklin/
Lehman/
Franklin/
Lehman/
Page 50
Right.
If there are big issues we'll have to hang up.
In the absence of a lot of input from the public that we would probably
conclude the hearing.
But I kind of agree with Mike, if we hear comment cause at some point we
need to ask staff to outline the group or things or whatever that we decided
tonight. But if people don't know that the word in advance they might want
to come back in 2 weeks to say yeah do it that way or no don't do it that way.
And the only way we can hear that input is if we continue and then have the
motion to vote.
So you're definitely not likely to vote tomorrow night?
It's not on the agenda.
No but we could do, continue the hearing until we get the corrected plan.
NO.
As with changes that Karen just mentioned.
Franklin/
(All talk.)
Kubby/
Lehman/
Franklin/
This is a public hearing.
With expectation to vote in 2 weeks so we have a public we continue public
hearing and then have a resolution to vote and then if people don't want to
vote yet we can we need to.
I think that's probably fight.
Okay shall we zip through Planning and Zoning stuff?.
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Lehman/ Lets go through Planning and Zoning items.
(All talk.)
Vanderhoef/I knew my battery wouldn't last now you've got to give me time to turn it on.
(All talk.)
Franklin/ Are we ready?
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ITEM NO.
Franklin/
Norton/
Franklin/
Norton/
Franklin/
5. PLANNING AND ZONING MATTERS.
a. Public hearing on an ordinance amending Title 14, Chapter 6,
Zoning, Article E, Commercial and Business Zones, Section 2,
Neighborhood Commercial Zone, and Article L, Provisional Uses,
Special Exceptions, and Temporary Uses, to allow pharmacies to have a
drive-through facility in the Neighborhood Commercial (CN-1) zone,
and to adopt location, design, and size criteria for drive-through
facilities associated with pharmacies and financial institutions in the CN-
1 zone.
Okay. First item is an ordinance amendment to permit drive through
facilities for pharmacies and also amends the treatment of drive through
facilities for financial institutions. Basically this was precipitated by request
from somebody, Drug Town, right, thank you. To have the pharmacy drive
through and although we had originally considering this said because it just
seems inconsistent with the neighborhood commercial and this is we're just
talking about neighborhood commercial. In doing some research on this
found that in fact it doesn't really substantially increase the traffic for drive
through pharmacies because it's mainly people who already go to that
pharmacy they use it as a matter of convenience and so what we suggested is
that these be allowed as special exceptions to go to the board of adjustments.
That we look at things like the pedestrian circulation that the drive through
not interfere with how people can get around within the neighborhood
commercial area. And that also that with financial institutions we limit it to a
maximum of 3 drive through lanes with pharmacies 1 drive through lane. It's
probably chinking a little bit at the neighborhood commercial pedestrian
orientation but seems to be responding to the way people use these areas
without totally negating the pedestrian focus. As long as we have these
provisos in the review by the board of the adjustment to ensure that it's set up
in such a way that there' s not conflict between those two users.
You want to permit drive through would you still want to encourage
pedestrian access to it.
So how it laid out is gonna be very important we'll probably try to push them
around to the back. The one at.
The example is well taken.
Yeah, yeah.
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Thornberry/You know I support this Karin but it the reason for allowing drive through
pharmacies and stuff is for the sick and almost infirmed and the super elderly
these are the people that shouldn't be driving in the first place.
Lehman/ Oh no no no.
(All talk.)
Franklin/ Well I mean you know, there are single people in this world, there' s single
Moms that have to deal with life.
Thomberry/Yeah, yeah.
Franklin/ Give us a break.
Kubby/
One of the things with the neighborhood commercials were trying to have it
be kind of a community gathering place in some instances if there was a town
square and everyone roaming around. The talk about having outdoor areas
close to the streetscape for outdoor cafes possibilities and all that and I'm not
I guess I want some more explanation about how the three criteria that the
step proposed deals with that particular or is it just that the same as pedestrian
issue?
Franklin/
It's the same as the pedestrian issue I think Karen because these are some
illustrations which you've seen before of ways in which you can have
neighborhood commercial set up I mean this is around a square. This
obviously is drive through for a gas station. I mean it recognizes that in
neighborhood commercial there are going to be people that are going to drive
to this. As we put the neighborhood commercial on the edges of
neighborhoods as opposed to in the middle of them and on the arterial
comers. It recognizes that in order for these businesses to survive they've got
to have enough people coming and it may not be enough with just the
neighborhood to survive. It also picks up some people on their way to
someplace else and to an adjacent neighborhood to stop by and patronize
these businesses. But what you try to do is not have your drive through in a
place where you're going to conflict with a pedestrian crossing. So you may
put the drive through back in here where it's just in a parking area and I think
that gets at your point, doesn't it? I hope.
Vanderhoef/Okay, I thought it was sort of interesting that there wasn't really any
comment in the P and Z about banks that I noticed at least. You're talking
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this as only the little branch bank not the main bank where there may that is
in a commercial zone.
Franklin/
The neighborhood, this is just about in neighborhood commercial. Yeah, and
one thing the Planning and Zoning Commission did defer this so that the
banks could be notified and have plenty of time to respond and I think what
the lack of discussion was the lack of concems, yeah.
Vanderhoef/Because the main banks are coming up with more than 3 but you're talking 2
plus 1 for the ATM. No comments, okay.
Franklin/ Okay? And that 's recommended 7-0 from the Planning and Zoning
Commission.
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ITEM NO.
5b. Public hearing on an ordinance conditionally changing the zoning
designation of approximately 7.46 acres from Medium Density Single-
Family Residential (RS-8) to Planned Development Housing Overlay
(OPDH-8) and the approval of a preliminary OPDH Plan for 72
residential dwelling units on property located at the east terminus of
Court Street (REZ99-0006) (Windsor Ridge)
Franklin/
Okay the next item is Windsor Ridge Part 12 and there's a piece which I want
to give you which the Planning and Zoning Commission got in their packets
this last Friday.
Thornberry/And we didn't.
Franklin/
This is a piece that Scott put together as part of a staff report. It was really
for the Windsor Ridge part 13 the RS-8 Townhouses that are under
consideration by the Planning and Zoning Commission right now. The
reason I'm giving it to you is because it's a very good and very well written
piece about how Windsor Ridge got to be where it is today. In terms of the
evolution and the thinking behind having the mixed densities within this area.
So I wanted you to have that, I don't expect you to read it now but if you can
look at it maybe before the public hearing tomorrow night, it'll give you
some good background on that history.
Kubby/
Can I assume we'll get the P and Z minutes that has the fight to vote in it and
the discussion about that vote?
Franklin/ The May 6th meeting?
Thornberry/It's not in ours.
Norton/ Wasn't that earlier?
Thornberry/I went back to the last one and it wasn't in that one.
Franklin/ You haven't gotten those minutes?
Kubby/
Well we got their 1 st public hearing but we didn't get their 2nd public
hearing vote yet. And I assume we'll get it before we vote.
Norton Wait a minute.
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Thomberry/The 5-2 vote I wanted to see why the 2 voted against it but I couldn't find it.
Franklin/ OK, I'll check on it.
Vanderhoef/I've made phone calls because I don't have that.
Kubby/ This is a public heating and we might.
Vanderhoef/This is exactly what I'm talking about when I.
(END OF REEL 99-63 SIDE 1)
Vanderhoef/Get minutes in when it's something that.
Norton/ It's hard to do.
Vanderhoef/It is.
Franklin/ I mean it's unusual for you not to have these minutes by the time, I mean
you're suppose to always have the minutes before you get the public hearing
and that was from May 6th that' s a month away that' s very odd.
Yeah something's strange.
Yeah, something happened.
Norton/
Franklin/
(All talk.)
Kubby/
If it's possible cause we have a long night if there's a way we could get it
before we leave tonight even.
Norton/ It's was the May 5th meeting that we're missing.
Franklin/ May 6th, okay. Yea.
Norton/ May 6th.
Franklin/ The reason the 5-2 had to do with Ann and Pam's concem about the height of
the buildings.
Norton/ Right to big.
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Vanderhoef/Which takes a waiver.
Franklin/ Right.
Kubby/ You mean a special exception?
Franklin/
No it's a planned development and in the plan development you can vary the
height of the building and the building type and the height is one of the things
that was varied with through the planned development process cause 35 feet
is the maximum height in the RS-8 zone because it's an OPDH-8 there's 2
things. There' s 1 the fact that you got 4 18 plexes and the other part is varied
is the height of the building the 35 feet to 50.
Vanderhoef/Close to 50. Can you tell me what the apartment complex is on Iowa Avenue
and the height of that one?
Franklin/ No, I mean not off the top of my head.
Norton/ 35 feet.
O'Donnell/That's the one that had to have berm (can't hear) built up isn't it:
Vanderhoef/Well and it still doesn't quite meet it because you still go to the lowest point.
Norton/ Well it's over 35 feet for sure.
Vanderhoef/For me that gives me some opportunity to have an eyeball.
O'Donnell/How does this height within the plan we just discussed?
Franklin/
Yea if I could continue with some of this I think some of the, one of the
issues is far as the height goes that I think that you need to be aware of is
where this building is placed. It is remarkably different placement from the
Iowa Avenue building and how it will affect neighboring property owners.
As I was getting into this and pointing out the history this property was zoned
RS-8 in 1995. It was annexed in '93 and came in as a concept plan and then
we had the rezoning in 1995 which was consistent with some of the things
that we were trying to start looking at but then became adopted in the 1997
Comprehensive Plan that had to do with the mixed neighborhoods with
having neighborhood commercial in the area with having higher densities.
What' s up on the screen now is the layout for this project and just to give you
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context this is the extension of Court Street here the existing Windsor Ridge
development, the RS-8 that's under consideration by the Planning and
Zoning Commission right now which is for Townhouses and the open space
in the Town Square and the commercial, the neighborhood commercial and
then some RM-12 here. This RM-12 was zoned much later that was I don't
know '97 maybe '98 1 can't remember exactly the date when that was
rezoned. So we're looking fight now at this RS-8 area here which was zoned
in '95. The proposal is for four 18- unit complexes apartment buildings and a
community center type of building for these buildings here. To the south of
this project is an outlot, outlot J which includes part of the Ralston Creek and
considerable open space here. The distance between the building and the
south line oflot 1 which I think is right about there is a 135 feet to the south
line of outlot J which is fight here is 370 feet. To future homes that would be
in the single family development here where it's zoned RS-5 is about 425 to
450 feet. The distance to the nearest existing home is approximately 1200
feet. This distance from here to here the 370 feet just to give you a
comparison a block downtown is 320 feet. The topography is such that the
topography goes down to the stream bed this is no big surpfise and then
comes back up again. But there's a hill here I mean streams work that way
they're usually at the bottom of a hill.
(All talking)
Franklin/
I always like to state the obvious you know. This was put together because
of this concem about the height of the building. Here we have the center line
of Court Street you can see where the buildings are here the future private
drive this is the outlot J lot 1 boundary. Lets see you probably can't see the
numbers very well and neither can I. This.
Norton/ What am I looking at? I'm sorry.
Lehman/ Elevations.
Franklin/ What you're looking at is elevation.
Norton/ Okay.
Franklin/ This is 744, 731,724, 727, 740.
Thornberry/What was the first one?
(All talking)
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Kubby/ We might need a photo copy of that.
Franklin/ I think so, and I think blown up to.
(All talk)
Franklin/
What I'll do is blow this up and copy it for you cause you need to see those
numbers better than I can see them. At any rate it then starts to go up here to
the 760's in this area. These are representing the future platting this is not
existing housing here. Okay? If you go out to the sight which I would
suggest that all of you do, drive all the way to the end of Court Street as far
as you can possibly go you will see where there is a curve drop for Arlington
to come through. So that you'll have some sense then of how Arlington's
going to come over the hill and connect. This project is at the comer of
Arlington and Court. I think it's fair to say the two main issues had to do
with the mass of these buildings and then the connection of Arlington and
Court. One of the provisions is that the fourth 18-plex can not get a building
permit until Arlington is put through to Court Street. The plan has always
been with the Windsor Ridge development to extend Arlington to Court. We
wanted to ensure that that happened with this project. Because right here is
an area which has no buildings at least on this side it's also open space over
here. We didn't want to have that gap as the development of the residential
single family comes from the south and you have the 18 plexes here that
there wasn't a gap then in this continuity in the street system.
Kubby/ And why the 4th instead of or before the 3rd or 2nd?
Franklin/
To allow enough I mean financially for the developer in order to make the
whole project work they need to start getting some building in there that is
going to pay for some of their infrastructure. So that was just to make sure
that we had the lever and the 4th is the last one of course.
Vanderhoef/Karin, there was some comment I don't know whether it was in a letter or
what it was but something about what the traffic pattern is looking like for
the construction materials and how they're coming into these sites. Can you
show me a bigger map that shows what that looks like?
Franklin/ Yep.
Kubby/ But that concern will eventually I mean it will be a temporary issue.
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Champion/Yes.
Lehman/ It also would apply to any development whether it 's these 4 or single family.
Vanderhoef/ This is a huge big project though.
Lehman/ Oh, I realize that but it's only a matter of a short period of time.
Franklin/ And there' s Court Street now to use for access too.
Vanderhoef/Right. So Scott to Court from either side.
Franklin/
Right, I would think it would make more sense for construction traffic to go
that way rather to come up. Well it can't can't come up Arlington now. You
can't get there.
Vanderhoef/You can't get there off Arlington.
Franklin/ Right. I think that concem maybe had more to do with this project over here.
Vanderhoef/Okay.
Franklin/
As I understand the evolution of all of this and I have not been directly
involved but this project came in and maybe this is something that you want
to try to clarify at the public hearing tomorrow night. But this project came
in it was some concern by people in Windsor Ridge and there was expressed
concern from the Home Owners Association of Windsor Ridge about this.
You know not wanting to have apartments not wanting to have the traffic on
Arlington etc.. The Planning and Zoning Commission deferred it as they do
anyway, they always have 2 meetings on it. There was a meeting that was
held between the developer and the staff and the Windsor Ridge Home
Owners Association Representatives and some people who live there.
Discussion of it the next of the Planning and Zoning Commission then there
was not objection to this in fact there was a letter from the Home Owners
Association that supported the project. Then this project has come in, the
Townhouses and RS-8.
Norton/ Part 13, is that Windsor Ridge?
Franklin/
That's part 13, yeah yeah. This one is before the Planning and Zoning
Commission now and with the either the incremental effect of these two or
the catalyst of this one there's more activity now regarding part 12 in terms
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of the neighborhood protest to it. So some of the comments that you're
getting are comments I think that are pertinent for the neighbors to both of
these projects. It might make more sense on those construction trucks over
here having to do with Barrington and Huntington going through to Court.
Cause that was one of things that with this our stipulation was that Court had
to be extended to Huntington and the connection made here. That was part of
the conditional zoning agreement. When these pieces were rezoned that this
couldn't happen until Court Street it was extended and these can't happen
until Court Street comes out to here. One of the points of the neighborhood
is extend Court Street out to Taft to take care of some of that traffic not then
going through the neighborhood of being able to go fight out to Taft. I think
that's at least my understanding of it.
Vanderhoef/Either that or that going to come up from Lower Muscatine than.
Franklin/ Well, for construction traffic.
Vanderhoef/That's a long ways up there.
Franklin/
Yeah, as I say for this project and if we can separate the two for the moment,
for this project I don't know why well there isn't any reason you come here
cause you can't get there from here. So you're gonna go through this way.
Vanderhoef/Yep.
Franklin/ As far as how the construction traffic is over here that 's another issue.
Norton/
This objection it seems me both as a current one and the one coming up or
the two coming up I guess has more to do with the recognition that OPDH
permits an increase in density passively or explicitly. I guess.
Franklin/ Well the densities here are established with the zoning in '85 of RS-8 there
and RS-8 here.
Norton/
But isn't under OPDH isn't it somewhat larger I thought was discussed by
the P and Z?
Franklin/
What you can do, with the actual affect, what you can do with an OPDH is
you can maximize the density. Under RS-8 the most you can have with
duplex development is 10 units per acre. This I hope I've got this one fight
that this one is 9.65.
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Norton/
But the thing that seems to be surpfising people is that you're coming up with
some multi-family volumes here. Zero lot lines or what ever you want to call
them.
Franklin/
I'm sure you will hear this tomorrow night but I think that the concern is yes,
that there is going to be a different type of housing here and people for
whatever reason did not know that.
Kubby/
But the public heating tomorrow night is about the shaded area the patched
area.
Lehman/ Right.
Kubby/ Not about other buildings. Not about the townhouses.
Franklin/ It's not about the Townhouses tomorrow night it 's about these fight here.
Thornberry/It's the REZ99-0006.
Franklin/ Very good!
Vanderhoef/What would be helpful on that particular map you had there I had a lot of
trouble reading. I couldn't read it on the computer and I copied if offbut it's
real hard I can't read the names of the streets and some of that stuff but trying
to figure out when I look at this map it's up here and where the various
projects are you know where's 8, where's 9, where's 107 So that you see the
relationship of.
Franklin/ Where' s 8, where' s 9, where' s 107 I don't know what you're talking.
Vanderhoef/They're parks.
Franklin/ Oh oh oh
Vanderhoef/And trying to fit this all together this is the first I've worked with Windsor
Ridge and I remember all the numbers were for some of those in terms of that
map together.
(All talk.)
Vanderhoef/That's the one I have trouble with.
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Thornberry/What part did you have trouble with?
(All talk)
Vanderhoef/And try to put all my maps together and see how they interrelate.
Lehman/ I see 12 over there.
Franklin/ 12, 13 and 14 are probably the clearest ones.
Vanderhoef/It's there.
Vanderhoef/Yeah, it's a struggle.
Franklin/
Let me just show you what' s proposed here, these are just elevations of the
buildings. That is from the rear so that's where you get the 50 foot height
and 50 feet is from grade on average to the middle of the roof line. That's
how we measure height. Yes, from the mid point in the roof. The reason for
that has to do with the underground inside underground parking. Which in
the OPDH and particularly when you're an area like this where you've got
the stream corridor and you want to preserve as much with parking you're
either going to have it surface parking or you're gonna have it underground
or inside. What this building does is it puts it inside which brings the
building height up. But there is that change in elevation from Court Street
down to the stream and then the change back up which we believe mediates
some of that height.
Thornberry/During the distances that you were talking about the distance between the
building and the creek and the creek back up to the the houses that could be
built but the ones that are already completed. That is like a 3rd of a mile it's
like 12 blocks but that's following the land is that correct? It's not site of
distance?
Norton/ It's probably site distance.
Franklin/ Ahhh, say that again?
Thomberry/In other words that' s what you got?
Franklin/ Yeah.
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Thornberry/Is that distance measuring down here and back up again or is it site distance
across?
Franklin/ It 's measuring down there and back up again.
Larry Schnittjer/No, it's site distance.
(All talking)
Norton/As the crow flies.
Schnittjer/It's horizontal distance.
Norton/ It's not a matter of how long or how many steps it is, it's how far the crow
flies.
Thornberry/So am I correct in assuming then from that building that' s proposed that fight
there to the house that' s built over here, that' s like 12 blocks?
Norton/ Well we don't have to go long. Just the heating tomorrow night. We don't
have to go through all the (can't hear).
Franklin/ No if.
(All talking).
Franklin/ Dean I'll have to check that but Scott figured that for me and I would imagine
what he used was the plat and so he's going to take the distance on the plat
not from eyeball to building.
Thornberry/Okay, so it is land distance then.
Franklin/ Yea.
Thornberry/So it could be considerably closer (can't hear)?
Franklin/ Not considerably.
Norton/ Well if it's the Grand Canyon it could be it' s.
Thornberry/That's right depends on how deep you're talking. I mean it.
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Kubby/ If it is it's, go out on the Court and take a look.
Thornberry/Oh I mean I've been there.
Kubby/ I know but you see cause I mean.
Thornberry/I was wanting to know the measurements. She gave us measurements in
distances.
Kubby/
But even from a month ago the houses have been complete that are on top of
ridge there and it's just interesting to look over all the rag weed to.
Franklin/
The buildings are 3 different designs? 4 different designs. Basically the
same building oh I'm sorry that's the back, I have 3 different designs here,
the same building with a different skin. Then the Community Center which
is lined up with the street that's gonna go to the noah. Across noah of Court
Street. Are there questions on this? You need the minutes what else do you
need?
Kubby/ We might have more requests after we hear the comments tomorrow night.
Franklin/ Oh sure yeah, I mean do you need anything else fight away.
O'Donnell/I, this has been approved by Planning and Zoning? It falls into the comp.
plan, it falls into the northeast district plan. I think it's exactly what we're
wanting to happen in that area.
Norton/
Well we had a couple people on P & Z who thought otherwise or thought
OPDH wasn't exactly designed for this purpose. I don't know what exactly
that means but that's what.
O'Donnell/There's five to pass it.
Kubby/ Judgment time is after the public meeting.
Franklin/ Yea the conditional.
Lehman/ All right the (can't hear). Pardon?
Franklin/Do you want a break?
Atkins/Airport commission is here.
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Lehman/ I think you better cancel the fire. We're gonna take 5.
(BREAK)
ITEM NO.
5c. PUBLIC HEARING ON AN ORDINANCE AMENDING
TITLE 14, CHAPTER 6, ZONING, ARTICLE O, SIGN
REGULATIONS, BY CHANGING THE REQUIREMENTS
REGARDING THE NUMBER OF FREE STANDING SIGNS ON LOTS
WITH OVER 300 FEET OF FRONTAGE.
Franklin/
Public hearing. Yes. On changing the requirements regarding the number of
free standing signs on lots with over 300 feet of frontage. This was an issue
that was brought to our attention by Harry Wolfe of Southgate Development
and then Gerry Ambrose on Riverside Drive we had a similar problem. What
the issue is is when you have a number of lots that use the same access or the
same parking and there's really integration between the lots, even if they're
owned by different people they're consider on tract and they're considered
one lot for the purposes of zoning. Which means that on that whole space
under our current code you could have 2 free standing signs. Where as if you
had split it up into individual lots with individual access points you could
have 2 per individual lot. And so in some cases it was a disparity between
say having 6 signs or having 2 signs. It seemed that what we were doing is
we were penalizing people who were integrating their developments who
were minimizing the number of access points to our arterial streets. That
wasn't really the message that we wanted to send. So what we did was look
at what would seem to make sense given that you still had that spacing
requirements of a 150 feet between signs. Because you also don't want to
loose the reason that you have the sign regulation which is to try to avoid that
visual clutter of too much signage or so many signs that nobody can read any
one sign anyway. I think that what we've proposed is a good compromise
and the Planning and Zoning Commission has endorsed it 7-0. Basically
what it does is if you've got 300 feet of frontage or more you can have 3 free
standing signs. They still have to be 150 feet apart. If you've got more than
one frontage as is the case with Southgate Development and Kmart they have
frontage on 3 streets. 4 streets. They could have 4 free standing signs. They
have to decide where those are going to be and who's going to get to be on
them. So it's really it's a rather minimal change in terms of the number of
signs along a frontage. To go from 2 to 3. But you have to have that extra
long frontage.
Norton/ It's still 150 feet apart aren't they?
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Franklin/
It's still 150 feet apart. And so you know, but for some property lines you
could have that anyway and I included it in my memorandum to the
Commission an estimate of how many signs you could have if it was all
divided up and how many signs you would have if it was treated as a tract.
So anyway without much more on that it opens it up a little bit but not too
much.
Vanderhoef/On your page 2 of your memo actually where you're showing the frontage
and signs and the frontage divided into 160 foot lots and then current rates
given existing property lines then that last column 1 per 150 1 didn't quite
understand.
Franklin/
That would be, well one of the options that we considered was what if you
just said that you could have one sign every 150 feet because that was
evidently a spacing that was deemed to be appropriate at some point in time
when we adopted the sign regulations. So what if you just took it by frontage
and said you can have one every 150 feet? It seemed like a lot. And thinking
also for instance of Sycamore Mall which has frontage on 4 streets. If you I
mean you could have a lot of signs there. Yeah. And it really just didn't
seem to be necessary to go that far. That wasn't what we were heating from
the business community in terms of what they needed and so why go
overboard with it.
Vanderhoef/Okay so the one question that came up for me then on this whole thing I can
understand it real easily when there's a single ownership. But there seems to
be some problem out there on the Riverside Drive area where there' s multiple
owners and we're gonna limit it to 150 feet in there. How do those owners
work it out to be sure that everyone gets an equal crack at?
Franklin/ They have to work it out. I mean that' s the situation to at Kmart where it's
the Video.
Norton/ Blockbuster?
Franklin/ No it 's not Blockbuster it 's that big red video sign.
Vanderhoef/Movies and now it's.
Franklin/ Yeah, it used to be Moovies and now it 's video something or other.
Kubby/ Video Update I think.
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Franklin/
Yeah, that is a separate lot but it's in the same tract because their parking is
integrated. And so what happened there is that there was a sign up for
Pepperwood Plaza, Video Update had their sign and that was it. Then that
was all they were allowed under the code. Because even though it was two
different ownership's it was integrated. The same thing on Riverside Drive
where you have three owners you have a number of different businesses but
you got three owners and there's 1 or 2 access points but the parking from the
alley of south of Flowerama basically all the way to the comer you can drive
in that access point and you can go anywhere to any of those establishments.
And so that's all integrated and handled as a single tract. And what they'll
need to do is they'll need to work together and 2 of the owners particularly
O'Reilley's that are the owners of Fin and Feather and then Gerry Ambrose
who owns the properties that Tuffy's and O'Reilley's and something else is
on, Tobacco Outlet. They'll have to work together to come up with a signage
scheme that allows all of their tenants to have adequate signage but falls
within the parameters of the sign ordinance.
Champion/But you could put more than one sign on one site.
Franklin/ Yes.
Vanderhoef/How many could you put on one?
Franklin/ That' s up to you to determine the shape and the size but it's within a certain
size parameter.
Vanderhoef/The size pieces is fight but could each one put one within the size
requirement and have 4 of those on a single pole?
Kubby/ It's the total sign.
Franklin/
No, it's the total signage 250 square feet or something I don't remember
exactly what the number is but you have a total sign face and within that sign
face whatever that content is is up to you. So it can be Tuffy's and
O'Reilleys or Tuffy's and O'Reilleys and Tobacco Outlet but it's all got to be
within that square footage allowance and they understand that. So, okay?
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ITEM NO.
Franklin/
5d. PUBLIC HEARING ON AN ORDINANCE VACATING A 10-
FOOT WIDE RIGHT-OF-WAY LOCATED ALONG THE WEST
LINE OF PROPERTY LOCATED AT 1033 E. WASHINGTON
STREET. (VAC99-0002)
The next item is public heating and vacation of the 10 foot fight of way
located along the west line of property at 1033 E. Washington. This is really
pretty simple I'll just show you where it is. The person who just bought the
property on the comer of Washington and Lower Muscatine this property has
requested this this piece of the alley has never been improved in fact it's quite
a grade change that comes down to Washington. There would be no reason
why we would ever want to put an alley through there and when we vacate it
for public fight away purposes the next step is that the abutting property
owners can purchase it and both property owners are interested so 5 feet
would go to each. Okay?
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ITEM NO. 5e. PUBLIC HEARING ON A RESOLUTION ADOPTING AN
INCORPORATING THE NORTHEAST DISTRICT PLAN INTO THE
IOWA CITY COMPREHENSIVE PLAN. (continued from March 30,
April 6, April 20, and May 18)
Franklin/ Noaheast we did that already, let's not do it again.
ITEM NO. 5f. CONSIDER AN ORDINANCE AMENDING CITY CODE
SECTION 14-6, "ZONING CHAPTER," CONCERNING DEFINITIONS
AND PARKING REQUIREMENTS FOR CARRYOUT, DELIVERY, AND
DRIVE-THROUGH RESTAURANTS. (SECOND CONSIDERATION)
Franklin/Second consideration on carry out delivery drive through restaurants, the
parking requirement,
ITEM NO. 5g. CONSIDER AN ORDINANCE AMENDING CITY CODE,
SUBSECTIONS 14-5H, SITE PLAN REVIEW, AND 14-6S,
PERFORMANCE STANDARDS, REGARDING LIGHTING STANDARDS.
(PASS AND ADOPT)
Franklin/Pass and adopt on the lighting standards.
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ITEM NO. 5h. CONSIDER A RESOLUTION APPROVING A FINAL PLAT OF
COUNTRY CLUB ESTATES FIRST ADDITION, A 10.4 ACRE, 20-LOT
RESIDENTIAL SUBDIVISION LOCATED AT THE WEST TERMINUS
OF PHOENIX DRIVE. (SUB98-0027)
Franklin/Country Club Estates this is a final plat on Country Club Estates which you
have seen before. This is still the 20 lots out at the end of Phoenix. Does
anybody need to see that?
Norton/Is anything new about that access to the south and all that is it?
Franklin/No that will come with the future development. I mean we reiterated that in the
final plat staff report but the idea is that these 20 lots can forward before the
remainder of this property develops.
But I forget what the last hang up or the last deferral was about. We've seen
Norton/
this.
Franklin/
Norton/
Franklin/
Oh it was about construction plans and legal papers and all that kind of stuff.
Okay, they weren't ready.
Yeah, they weren't ready.
Dilkes/Sarah told me late today too that these legal papers are done and in their attorneys
hands but there are some of people who need to sign are not available so this will
likely be deferred.
Franklin/ Okay?
Norton/ It's deferred again.
Franklin/ Something's are just hard. Okay, so we'll just let you know ifthat's not in
tomorrow whether we should defer.
Kubby/ The 291h ?
Franklin/ Yeah.
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ITEM NO. 5i. CONSIDER A RESOLUTION APPROVING A PRELIMINARY
PLAT OF ABCO 1ST ADDITION, AN 8.81-ACRE, 5-LOT,
COMMERCIAL SUBDIVISION LOCATED AT THE INTERSECTION OF
NAPLES AVENUE AND SIERRA COURT. (SUB99-0011)
Franklin/ OK the next item is ABCO Subdivision. Which is a re-subdivision of a re-
subdivision of a re-subdivision of a I don't know how many times. Well, they're
all listed up there. All those re-subdivisions.
Kubby/ So and so begot so and so.
Franklin/ Yes.
Lehman/ Chapter 13 verses 3 through 22.
Franklin/ Yeah.
Franklin/ Well lets see, okay here' s the lots that we're getting this time. There' s one
here that an interior lot this one and then these two. And I guess you know it's
just a matter of trust me you can get in there and you can get out.
(All talk.)
Kubby/ The big concern for the last time we talked was about figuring out the sewer
capacity and making sure people understood there limits per lot and it sounds like
you know staff is monitoring that and that they may increase the capacity and if
they want to do that that's fine.
Franklin/ Yes, yea.
Norton/ Was there a grading question to in that?
Franklin/ They came in with the sensitive areas overlay and this one we said you can't
touch this one this is where they'll need to put up the construction fencing if they
ever do any development on lot 5 it's not anticipated at this point. This is not to
do development on lot 5 it's for development over here and who knows maybe
we'll see the resubdivision of 10t 5 someday.
Norton/ Action precludes development on lot 5.
Franklin/ No it doesn't preclude development totally cause there' s quite a bit of area
here Dee where you wouldn't.
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(All talk.)
Franklin/ Yeah, what he wanted to do was fill in this ravine here and that was what you
said no, okay. So legal papers okay? Oh fight, I'm sorry, no legal papers so
we're cool
Norton/
Lehman/
Franklin/
Norton/
Lehman/
Norton/
Franklin/
I don't think there's AB & C (can't hear) it used to be area AB & C didn't it?
Right.
I think that's maybe were ABCO came from.
Oh that's fight.
Oh God.
How intuitive.
I'm done.
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Airport Hangar
Lehman/Okay. Boulevard. Airport? Yeah, we can that first. We are going to break at
6:30 promptly for our formal special meeting. We have to do that. All fight,
airport. Would you mind landing up here?
(All talk.)
Ron O 'Neil/ We have probably 17 people on a waiting list for hangars. 13 for "T"
hangers and 4 for a little bit larger hangars. This is the preliminary stage come to
you it's a if in deed we can come back with signed leases for all those hangars we
lend the Commission the money to go ahead and put the building up. It's that
simple.
(All talk.)
Lehman/No problem.
Norton/ Leases in hand?
Thornberry/You mentioned something about not having maybe a 10 hanger "T" hanger
because some of the need is for maybe a little wider doors?
O'Neil/ Right. The last "T" hanger building and "T" hanger is just a long building
the last 2 we put up with 10 - 42 foot doors 5 on each side. We may have a little
bit different configuration we'll see what we're going to try to satisfy as many
customers as are out there. Again if we don't have enough people then we know
the need isn't there and we won't build it. But we may build the same about the
same size a building with maybe 60 hangers and then 3 larger hangers. Two on
either side on the end and then 1 on an end. But if indeed the market is out there
that's all we really need to know if should start going ahead and looking at this.
Vanderhoef/ How long of leases are you giving on these?
O'Neil/ We started out they were like with all the "T" hangers they were a year lease
and then there a month to month and the 2 buildings that we built 4 years ago and
2 years ago I think in that time we probably had 2 people that even left there.
Those are much nicer hangers than our old ones and I there isn't any problem
once somebody gets in as far as keeping it. I believe those buildings the last one
or the one before that were amortized out like over about 13 years.
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Vanderhoef/ Thirteen years, so you anticipate any problem with having empty spaces?
O'Neil/No and general aviation is forecast to grow at a pretty modest rate about 2.4% a
year. We've certainly grown a lot faster at the Iowa City Airport in the last. I
think once we got our master plan together and said this is what we're gonna do at
this airport I think things have really fallen together certainly with the terminal
building and all that other stuff. I think there' s because we have such a good
general aviation airport and the location of it I anticipate that once we've attracted
somebody here that we will keep those hangers full. Go forward? Thank you.
(All talk.)
Lehman/Well lets start if we don't get through we'll have to break
Thornberry/While you're here from the airport and he's getting ready, how are we
coming on that master plan? Is it coming along according to time table?
Rick Mascari/Very well, yes as a matter of fact the consultants that we have hired.
Madan Karr/I'm sorry I can't hear you.
Kubby/Can you answer into the mic?
Mascari/OK The consultants we have hired are fight on schedule and have told us that
the everything is going as planned.
Thornberry/Good. On time schedule for the master plan, what about the renovation of
the terminal building? Is that?
Mascari/ That's in progress fight now at this time.
Thomberry/It's on schedule?
Lehman/ We just approved the contract.
Kubby/ Right.
Thornberry/I know but.
O'Neil/ We start demoing a week ago so we're on track they anticipate a six month
completion date.
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Kubby/ I assume you've taken pictures of the process. Somebody.
Mascari/ That's not a bad idea.
Kubby/ It would be good to have.
Norton/ Before and after. Right.
Kubby/ Historic building and see if that will.
Mascari/ That's an excellent idea. It just so happens one of our Commission members
is a photographer.
Vanderhoef/ And he hasn't offered to do that for you.
Mascari/ Well we're ask him.
Vanderhoef/There you go.
Mascari/ Thank you again.
Lehman/ Thank you.
Oakdale Boulevard
Lehman/ All right Oakdale Boulevard.
Jeff Davidson/There is an existing agreement between Coralville, Iowa City and Johnson
County for preserving the future, actually part of it's built already, Oakdale
Boulevard corridor. Between 1 st Ave. in Coralville and Dubuque Street and those
of you who participate in JCCOG and I think Ernie you even sub'd one meeting
know a little about this. What is proposed now is to extend that agreement to
preserve between Dubuque Street and Prairie Du Chien Road. Prairie Du Chien
Road won't be on this alignment after the County rebuilds it this summer but to
wherever it hooks up with Prairie Du Chien Road. This is not a construction
project this is preserving the corridor so that in the future when we build it we
won't have to buy new houses that have been built and things like that. For the
existing uses out there this agreement has no affect at all. If somebody comes in
with a subdivision, comes in wanting a building permit or something like that then
we would use, the county would use this agreement to make sure the corridor gets
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preserved. One clarification from the materials you received from me and some
of the discussions we've had at JCCOG this area right here is in Iowa Cities
growth area. We've been saying that none of the area was and Karin and I
remembered that when the new comp. plan came in we did extend out to Rapid
Creek which is right here, just on the east side of the river. So that area is in the
Iowa City growth area, however, all the other statements in here about nobody
having anything planned to do anything or to annex anything still holds.
Lehman/ If I'm not mistaken you said that that alignment as it sits now would not take
any residential property.
Davidson/And it is the only 1 of the 4 that were evaluated that doesn't. It also has by
far the least environmental impact. There are some wetland areas so the Corp. of
Engineers would require us to demonstrate that the alignment we were using did
mitigate the impact on wetlands to the extent that we can't so this would do that
as well. We are keeping the property owners apprised of everything as this
progresses through Coralville and the County. And I think all of you recall at the
instigation from doing this and the final step in this is to execute that agreement
between Coralville and Iowa City governing who gets to review what out in this
area for the County. So that will be the after this is in place that'll be the next
thing that we do.
Norton/ Clearly some of it we already reviewed and it's (can't hear).
Davidson/Right now yeah, right now what it would change is that Iowa City would
continue to review this area Dee there's a portion over here that you currently
review that would become under Coralville's review. In fact we just got a
subdivision a resubdivision of a couple lots at Northwood Estates that if the new
agreement was in place would have gone to Coralville but in fact you'll be asked
to review that.
Norton/ I wondered if we ever got an answer to the question that came up from the
owners in that area, what is the impact on that? This is on now the master plan of
some kind and they were asking that could be a benefit to them financially could
be hazard if they wanted to put a bam in and couldn't put it in where they wanted
because it was in and they thought that was some kind of taking without any
money changing hands.
Davidson/I have discussed this with the County Attorney and of course our own
attorney as present as well. Because the County is the one who will be using this
agreement in the immediate future I wanted to make sure the County Attorney
was comfortable with it. He is very comfortable as long as it's part of an
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approved plan which you'll recall at JCCOG we amended the artefial street plan,
he says as long as it's part of a document that can be referred to by the County
that has some meat to it he says they're perfectly within their fights to do that.
You know the definition of a taking is I guess when the city does something that
would realize you could then realize no economic value in a property. This is
clearly not the case of what we're doing here.
Dilkes/ I think there's actually 2 questions there and this is within the County
Attorneys purview because it's in the County but I think by saying you might be
able to deny redevelopment or deny subdivision or prevent someone from putting
something there that' s the 1 st question. But that doesn't necessarily mean there
wouldn't be a taking. I mean, there might be a taking. There might be a taking
for which just compensation would have to be paid but that's gonna be dependent
on.
Norton/ It could become an issue in other words?
Davidson/Well sure
Dilkes/Sure.
Norton/ In other words the mere fact that we drew a line on there and said here's a
hundred feet we want it.
Dilkes/No that doesn't.
Davidson/Correct me if I'm wrong, is what you saying is that it would take a
subsequent action by the property owner to want to do something to determine
that the taking. This action in itself does not.
Norton/ I understand that, but that does not preclude them from bringing a cause
bringing a case if they wanted to.
Champion/Well when the road is built they'll be compensated for their land.
Davidson/Absolutely. Not only will they be compensated but every infrastructure
improvement such as the road will increase the market value of property as we all
know°
Norton/ I just thought we needed a better explanation.
Champion/It's not that the property will be paid for this.
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Lehman/No
Davidson/
Lehman/
Dilkes/We have to do this.
Right. Okay so this will be on your agenda tomorrow night?
Okay. All fight we have a special meeting we are going to call.
(Executive Session)
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Clinton Street Angle Parking (1P1 copy enclosed)
Jeff Davidson/When Joe and I spoke with you a couple of Council meetings ago about
this you did indicate you were interested in going ahead with some angle parking
on Clinton Street specifically between Jefferson and Burlington. You asked us to
come up with a sketch I believe isn't that what we finally landed on just to get a
little bit better idea of what it would be like and we have provided that to you Kay
Irelan of Department of Public Works did the nice drawings. We can put them up
on overheads if you'd like to look at them what we're sort of after tonight I guess
is a couple of things. Rick has indicated Rick Fosse has indicated that we will
start designing this this fall. Get designed this fall and winter so now is probably
a fairly opportune time for you to put your final blessing on it and just make sure
that it is something you want us to design into the phase 3 the final phase of the
Downtown Streetscape Project. That's what we're taking advantage of here in
order to get this done.
Champion/Jeff could you put them on the overhead for me?
Davidson/Okay, I think what I've got up here is between Washington and Burlington is
that the one you want Connie? One thing another thing we were gonna ask you
we took your direction to try and save trees. There are some nice mature trees out
there and what you see presented here is sort our read on a compromise between
taking some trees out and saving some trees. Obviously in this area here and this
area here this is Old Capital Center here we could probably add 6 more spaces if
we took these 4 trees out. Again we would plant new trees if we take trees out but
these are 4 good size trees that we this proposal shown keeping but if you'd rather
have the 6 spaces and plants some new trees we'll do that.
O'Donnell/(can't hear).
Kubby/ Do you know how many are with that drawing how many are taken out?
Davidson/Actually Karen no I will say Kay Irelan and I along with Joe and Rob went
and walked the whole area. We've really tried to do this such where there were
some scrawny bad looking trees and those were the ones that came out. And the
ones that you see left here are the nice trees.
(All talking).
Davidson/Exact number for you.
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Champion/We'll keep them.
Lehman/ Yea we don't want to take anymore out I don't think.
Norton/ Enough of that.
Kubby/ I certainly was not going to suggest that.
Lehman/ Will you ask him that?
Davidson/I was asking that.
Lehman/ Yea.
(All talking).
Norton/ You've got other things planned in the neighborhood.
Davidson/One more similar question this is the next two blocks down. In this area here
I refer to it as being in front of the I refer to this angle parking as being in front of
Phillips Hall, obviously this is Phillips Hall it's in front of the Congregational
Church actually. What we did in this area, there's a nice seating out here that the
University has out here in front of Phillips Hall which we thought would be nice
to say that these are huge trees fight here. These two fight here are also fairly
good size trees once again if we took again these three.
(END OF REEL 99-63 SIDE 2)
Norton/ Back into places so.
Davidson/The actual geometric configurations of the lands will remain the same Dee.
Obviously what will change they're going to have a lot of backing movements.
And then people pausing to go into these spaces and that's what's going to bottle
things up.
Norton/ But you have those problems that kind before we have parallel parking.
Davidson/And quite frankly Dee I mean depending on what your own personal
philosophy is a lot of people will consider this new way of doing it more
consistent with what a downtown should be. Other people favor more keeping the
traffic moving on Clinton Street. I think either scenario is tolerable just don't want
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any, we just don't want anyone to think that the traffic flow on Clinton Street will
remain the same.
Lehman/ If we do this.
Norton/ Have we had any explicit contact with other businessman than those present?
Business persons other than those present and do we intend to and do we intend to
and have we had any influence at all from the what I might call the common
citizen other than us?
Davidson/Common citizen I would say no although there's no doubt I think in anyone's
mind that on street parking is the most favored parking that there is for the
average motorists or however you phrased it. So I think by the fact that we're
going from 16 to 35 spaces will be perceived as a positive thing. We have had
just some informal discussions with other merchants in the area, I mean we were
out measuring spaces and the Ewers guys were looking at us and came out and
asked us what we were doing so. Haven't had really much input positively or
negatively although we have over the last few years had some requests from area
business people to expand the amount of angle parking or expand to angle parking
on Clinton Street which in the past we've always resisted until we got to the point
where we were rebuilding the street and we decided we could.
Norton/ I guess what I'm concerned about others are but we were trying to remove
parking from Iowa Avenue to try to improve it's appearance and replace that by
all be it more extensive off-street parking and trying to make that less of a parking
lot. And now we're adding this, is this going to have a visual impact as it's going
to be a problem or not?
Davidson/Well with the street, the big aesthetic improvement with the Iowa Avenue
streetscape project will be taking the median parking out and opening the vista
Old Capitol. We're not really dealing with the vista but we're trying to open
necessarily you know depending on how beautiful you think on-street parking
spaces are.
Norton/ Well there is on-street parking now and so (can't hear).
Lehman/ Yea but those trees are going to do a pretty good job of helping to
camouflage the parking and I think be very pretty.
Davidson/Yea and one of the things we observed when we down there Ernie is that
those trees have grown so large on Clinton Street that taking out a couple of the
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bad ones and leaving the couple good ones there' s still going to be plenty of tree
canopy down there.
Lehman/ You're going to see trees looking down the street.
Davidson/Yes definitely.
Norton/ How about access parking Dee, go ahead?
Vanderhoef/ Well if this.
Norton/ Right now I'm changing topics so go ahead.
Vanderhoef/ So am I so whichever go ahead.
Norton/ Will there any impact on the access to the parking structure the Old Capitol I
mean?
Davidson/No that well we've got the wrong one up here.
Norton/ You need the other section.
Davidson/No that is kept open, where are we, fight here, so it shouldn't I mean other
than the fact that we'll have a little bit more congestion in general on the street
that will impact it some but.
Norton/ Somebody backing there won't be backing fight into the two-lane will there?
Davidson/Yea we sat fight here and watched the que of traffic along here and
completely that will affect these spaces here and it cleared out real regularly. I
mean with every cycle of the traffic signal it cleared out such that you would
never have to wait more at least by observations more than one cycle of traffic
signal, sure if you try to do it at 5:05 PM it's going to be a little harder.
Norton/
Lehman/
Norton/
Lehman/
But I mean while people backing as people are trying to turn in there fight?
But you don't get much entrance into that entrance into the ramp.
Oh I see.
I mean Old Capitol Street gets most of it, doesn't it?
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Davidson/Do you have anything to say about that Joe? Joe you want to come to the
microphone.
O'Donnell/He's doing that. How wide is the narrow part, is the narrow part of the
sidewalk there?
Davidson/The sidewalk will narrow in this area here you know from where it is at this
point, from where it is at this point from 19 feet to 12 feet.
O'Donnell/OK.
(All talking quietly).
Fowler/ There's a little bit of an island that curves back along this that would direct
the people in so that they'd be going in kind of a shoop to get in there and that
would be back far enough that the people backing out of this space wouldn't
interfere with them.
Norton/ OK, OK that's what I was.
Vanderhoef/ The island takes care of it.
Davidson/There's a tree fight over that island, you can't see it real well there fight by
the entrance of the (can't hear).
Norton/ There's certainly always been a real problem of access along that two blocks.
Temporary quick parking for 5 minutes or whatever, there's always been a real
missing link.
Lehman/ Will these all be meter spaces?
Davidson/We will probably designate some for loading and unloading the remainder
will be metered.
Lehman/ You know I really really should meter everything. I know it 's impossible,
you've got the loading zones downtown, you never find commercial vehicles,
they can't get in because the cars park there. And I think Joe's people have
enough problem the way it is chalking cars and whatever. If there's a meter there
it expired it gets ticketed. Ifthere's a meter there it's got money in it it doesn't
get ticketed. And 15 or 20 minutes for loading to me really satisfies the
requirement but meters would really make life a lot simpler for the people who
shop downtown.
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Davidson/It's a.
Champion/Well I'd really like to meter the inside of Dubuque Street.
Norton/ Won't talk about that tonight.
Lehman/ Well anyway that's just my opinion.
Vanderhoef/ OK. New subject. OK. We're taking, cutting back the sidewalk on the
west side in this block.
Davidson/Two blocks yea.
Vanderhoef/ Two blocks OK. And the next two blocks or the next block at least
between Washington and Iowa you said you were cutting back into that sidewalk
two feet.
Davidson/Yea approximately two feet in this area fight here.
Vanderhoef/ OK how does that line up then if we don't take it offof the other side of
the street, off of the University side of the street?
Davidson/Right. Yea. We will need to do, we will need to take a look at this
intersection and make sure we have a transition through this intersection that is
comfortable for a motorist. It may involve a slight dog leg which if we're trying
to keep vehicles a little bit slowed down through this area it's probably not a bad
idea anyway but that's something we'll have to work out with the pavement
markings to make sure we've got that.
Vanderhoef/ So we are taking two feet off of other side also?
Davidson/We have not proposed taking any offof the other side.
Vanderhoef/ Oh, OK.
Davidson/But keeping the existing bus stop area in tact. There's 9 feet that goes into
the Pentacrest on that side.
Vanderhoef/ Right, OK. My question is how many of the businesses on the east side of
the street have vaults that that two feet is going to cut into vault?
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Davidson/Well what we, what our initial look at determine if you'll notice this cut out
right there or whatever the reverse of a cut out is. That's because of a vault that's
right there and we at least try to take note of that. There wasn't any other
locations along here Dee where it looked like taking 18 inches or two feet was
going to any vault???. Now when we actually get into designing it you know that
subject to revision but at least at this level of analysis it didn't look like we'd into
any other vaults??? along there vault??? doors I should say, there may be that the
vault extends underneath it.
Vanderhoef/ The vault extends under the sidewalks so if you're cutting back the
sidewalk then what happens to the vault below it?
Davidson/Well we'll have to obviously make sure that we have enough room to
preserve that.
(All talking).
Davidson/We don't, Dee we don't know at this point the exact dimensions of the vaults
or any.
Vanderhoef/ Yea and that was that was my question how many vaults are involved in
that?
Davidson/That will be part of the design.
Vanderhoef/ To get two feet.
Lehman/ Jeff before we design that we need to find that out because I think there's a
question regarding vaults that we have on our pending list have had for a long
long time and really really would hate to see.
Davidson/I think it's been, I think it might have been taken off is that fight?
(All talking).
Vanderhoef/ It was there for a long time and it's going to come up again for Iowa
Avenue so you know how that works and whether we should be considering
taking some off of the other side.
Lehman/ I don't know if we can take off the other side.
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Davidson/Yea I guess if there, this is the block here where we have the most street
width that's why we're only having to take 18 inches or two feet. The expense for
18 taking 18 inches or two feet offof one side is a lot less expensive than taking
off a foot of each side.
Vanderhoef/ Oh I understand that.
Davidson/So that's why it makes it especially on this block it makes no sense.
Vanderhoef/ The cost of it might be a whole lot less expensive to take it offof the.
Davidson/Yea if you can wait until we get into the actual design we'll get a handle on
the vault situation.
Champion/If there's just one vault and it's going to be affected instead of just not having
any parking (can't hear).
(All talking).
Davidson/And that's what we tried to show fight there.
Champion/It seems pretty straight forward to me.
Kubby/ So is there any?
Vanderhoef/ But there 's more than that, but I don't know how many vaults.
Norton/ Yea and exactly how far forward they extend.
Champion/The way mine is designed you could bring the street fight up to the edge of
the vault and not be affected.
Lehman/ Same with mine.
Davidson/Right.
Kubby/ There's another one I know that we're dealing with a lot of different kinds of
perceptions about downtown and Clinton Street is kind of a major entrance way
thoroughfare through downtown is I know people like street parking so the
perception of ease of parking might increase but the perception of downtown's
accessibility may decrease because of increased congestion on that major
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thoroughfare to and through downtown. So I want to make sure we discuss that
and think that the balance is a positive one.
Champion/You know I think we've always caused that a major thoroughfare,
thoroughfare from where though? Certainly nobody coming off of the interstate is
using Clinton. So to me the only people who are using Clinton as a thoroughfare
is people who are going downtown for one reason or another.
(All talking)
Champion/Right or they're going down to the dorms so who is really using Clinton
Street are people who have direct business there. I don't think anybody's using
Clinton Street to go anywhere else in town? Do you?
Norton/ No.
Lehman/ Well I also think the congestion of Clinton Street particularly that caused by
angular parking is a good thing. Because the traffic is so fast on there now cars
are driving so quickly that I think from accessibility standpoint it's far more
accessible to slow the cars down. There's a real problem down there with
speeding.
Norton/ It's a jungle, I wonder if, we don't know anything about the running that's
going to be entailed up here.
Davidson/Not until we get the design Dee. But you know as I emphasized.
Norton/ It will more than double the parking.
Davidson/As we've emphasized to you the time to do this if ever is now. I'm really
have never advised it prior to being able to reconstruct the street I'm in. And we
probably aren't going to be reconstructing the street again for a long time so this
is the time to do it if your interested in doing it.
Kubby/ I mean it's easy to say you know we're going to more than double but it's
true it's also true it's 19 spaces extra and so we can talk about it in different ways
and create different exceptions about (can't hear).
Norton/ I understand, I'm tom.
O'Donnell/Didn't we also make the commitment to the owners of the Mall too?
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Norton/ Well we we're certainly contemplating about making that but I would think
other businesses along there would want a difficulty with short term access.
Champion/Right.
O'Donnell/I just think it's, I think it's a real positive thing for downtown.
Lehman/ I do too.
Davidson/OK we'll go ahead then.
Lehman/ All fight.
Davidson/Thank you.
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Agenda Items 99-64S1
1). 263. Parks and Recreation Commission - May 12
Champion/I was reading the minutes from the Park and Rec. Department about the
Skateboard park I think it's a going consensus that they might be closer to
downtown. And I would have just called and asked Steve about this but I'm not
familiar with what properties the City owns downtown. But what about, what
property do we own that could possibly be used at maybe where that parking
ramp the future ramp vicinity is there anything over there Steve?
Steve Atkins/Over on the near south side?
Norton/ Federal building I guess she's talking about.
Champion/Anywhere?
Atkins/ The trouble about the, well we own the street properties on Harrison and
Madison around the comer there I don't know where you'd find a flat spot that' s.
Champion/There's a flat spot.
Atkins/ I can't really think of a flat spot.
Lehman/ But you can't take property of that has the value that that property has and
make a skateboard park out of it.
Champion/Well my question was do we own anything that would be flat or is not tear
down a house for but something vacant. Not familiar with what the City owns.
(All talking).
Atkins/ If we built a ramp there we could incorporate something into it because of the
severity of the slope. That's a long way off.
O'Donnell/What are the dimensions of the park going to be?
Atkins/Of the skateboard park?
Kubby/ It's not that (can't hear).
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Norton/ 100 by 50 or what?
Atkins/ Terry's here maybe he can give us the numbers.
Terry Trueblood/ We have been looking at 80 x 100 but after meeting with about 30
skateboard enthusiasts or maybe not enthusiasts but people interested. They'd
like to look at some alternative designs. But I don't think we're looking at
expanding the size but maybe looking at some alternative designs.
O'Donnell/Would the City Park?
Champion/Is it off the wall to think about maybe talking to Freda about leasing her flat
land? I don't think she has any immediate plans to develop that, does she?
Lehman/ Well she 's got a plan if she can get it off the ground. The same plan she 's
had for a 3-4 years. She' s not going to lease that property with any kind of lease
at all.
Champion/OK I just thought off the top of my head.
(All talking).
Norton/ I was thinking about the parking in front of the old Rebel Motel but I
understand your point from the kids point of view they would surely like to be
more visible there' s no doubt about it, it would be more attractive to them. And
I'm not sure that down there is but I don't see the alternative it's hard to figure
where I thought maybe on the Pentacrest.
(All talking).
Norton/ Great property for the University fight?
VanderhoefJ
Trueblood/It would be a great spot.
O'Donnell/Is there a spot in College Green Park for that? That would be closer.
Trueblood/There's probably room in College Green Park but we think it would be better
not to put in the middle of a residential area.
Norton/ Yea.
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Champion/Right.
Thornberry/What about this park across the street over here?
Lehman/ You'll fall in the fountain.
Champion/Putting the fountain there.
Norton/ That's an option Dean.
Thornberry/You know it's close and you know as opposed to putting it way out there
where they need to drive to get to it.
O'Donnell/Well we don't want to put it in a residential area but we'll put in the center of
town.
Norton/ It would be very tempting.
O'Donnell/It's illegal to ride a skateboard downtown or in-lines isn't it?
Lehman/ Yes.
O'Donnell/Then how do they get there?
(All talking).
Champion/Well you know they're folks would drive they're car.
O'Donnell/And park in one of our new 30 some spots.
Norton/ It's hard to think of(can't hear).
(All talking).
Norton/ Across the street would be lovely but it's hard to contemplate.
Lehman/ Well I guess Terry have you folks have you folks thought about any other
potential locations?
Trueblood/Well the at both the meeting I had and at last weeks Park and Recreation
Commission meeting we discussed it and we could get it somewhere right in the
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downtown area that would be the best place but that doesn't appear to be feasible.
So the people at that meeting really liked the idea of Ter~ll Mill Park. They liked
that idea and the Commission given the three primary locations we've talked
about which is Terrill Mill Park, City Park and Mercer Park the Commission likes
the Terrill Mill alternative the best.
O'Donnell/Why would they take that over City Park?
Trueblood/Well we've got the new trail for wide sidewalk running fight through Terrill
Mill so in that respect it makes it a little more accessible to them whether their on
in-line skates, or bicycles, or skateboard.
O'Donnell/Far out isn't it?
Trueblood/Well it depends on where you'd put it in City Park.
O'Donnell/Tuck in right in there in that flat area down there.
Trueblood/Right offof Park Road?
O'Donnell/Yea.
Trueblood/Yea that would be a possibility, the other thing that was brought up is we
have a lot of activity in City Park right now and so maybe something with high
attributes would be better going across the river and you know and it's close to
Mayflower Dorms and would get quite a bit of use from there I would assume as
well. City Park is a possibility but Terrill Mill is. Pardon me.
O'Donnell/I'd rather see City Park.
Vanderhoef/ I keep trying to figure out what this is going to look like since this is our
gateway.
Norton/ Entrance.
Vanderhoef/ Entrance to the city with all of our nice view of the river and the green and
everything else. I'm not sure that I.
Norton/ It would be back a ways.
Kubby/ But they.
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Vanderhoef/ Keen on putting it.
Thomberry/(can't hear).
Kubby/ Well the other possibility is to think of it as you know we value the activity
of young people in our community. It's in your face and I don't this gets into
design issues but to design it somehow so that it's not only functional and exciting
to skate boarders and bikers and in-line skaters who might use it. But also
somehow has lines to it that would become a sculpture that becomes visually
interesting as far as functionally.
Champion/That's good.
(All talking).
Norton/ There's something I'm waiting for a recommendation but I'm sure their
considering the they probably haven't talked about Chauncey Swan park as Dean
said is well screened and well located, but it's very beautiful I don't know.
Thornberry/Getting you know getting access by ambulance and close to a hospital.
Lehman/ Does anybody have anything else for Terry?
Trueblood/I like the idea of the art though, I mean maybe we can enhance our funding
through public art committee.
Thornberry/It's an art piece.
2). Lehman/ And Terry this is not on the agenda but it will be coming up later as long
as your here. My understanding is the school board has authorized the screening
of those lights at tennis courts at City High School. Can you tell us where we are
on that? Or what the situation is?
Trueblood/Yea basically you may recall that they were looking at two different levels of
glare control shields, one of them called the Level Eight which is less expensive
and the other called Total Light Control or TLC if you prefer. And Musco
Lighting came back and said basically to the school board that they would put the
TLC in at the lower cost and so they voted to do that and then there's also the
issue of putting a light switch in which I thought was going to be put in initially
but it wasn't and that would mean that the lights don't automatically come on
every night even ifnobody's using it but they would still go off automatically at a
certain time. Total cost is somewhere around $1,000 give or take.
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Kubby/ And that includes the switch?
Treeblood/With the switch.
Lehman/ Would it be apparent then to assume that because we have contributed
$10,000 to the project then the public has contributed $15,000 that the school
district will be happy to pay for this?
Treeblood/That would not be fair to assume that no.
Kubby/ Let's not ask and if they want to request things.
(all talking).
Vanderhoef/ They have.
Kubby/ Have they already?
Vanderhoef/ Well the letter from Susan Mims asked us to pay for half of that.
O'Donnell/I think that's a bit upscale.
Norton/
Lehman/ Well I don't think we can quibble over it, it 's something that needs to be
done.
Norton/
(All talking).
Lehman/ So are we proceeding with that?
Trueblood/That depends on what you tell me.
Lehman/Well what's the feeling from Council, do we proceed with7
Norton/ Yes yes indeed.
Lehman/ You've got some "of courses" and some "yes's" and you've got a "no".
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Trueblood/Thank you.
(All talking).
Kubby/ The project should be done but I don't think it's something we should pay
for.
(All talking)
Lehman/ I agree but I feel sorry for those neighbors and I think something' s got to be
done.
O'Donnell/This has nothing to do with that, it has that doing that we've already paid and
now this is correcting it I see nothing wrong with letting them picking up this.
It's not that much money.
Norton/ You mean that it was they're error you mean?
Thornberry/It wasn't their error.
Kubby/ Well it's an improvement to their facility to be more (can't hear).
Lehman/ At no cost to them.
O'Donnell/So we are going to pay halt'?.
Thornberry/It's $500.00 a piece write a check.
(All talking).
Kubby/ I have another agenda item.
Lehman/ Yes please.
3).
CONSIDER AN ORDINANCE AMENDING CITY CODE TITLE 8, CHAPTER 8,
ENTITLED "POLICE CITIZENS' REVIEW BOARD," SECTION 7,
ENTITLED "DUTIES OF THE BOARD; COMPLAINT REVIEW AND
GENERAL DUTIES ," REGARDING THE IDENTIFICATION OF
COMPLAINANT(S) AND/OR POLICE OFFICER(S) IN THE BOARD'S
PUBLIC REPORT OF A SUSTAINED COMPLAINT TO THE CITY
COUNCIL. (FIRST CONSIDERATION)
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Kubby/ It has to do with the PCRB changes. And so I'm looking on the 6\15 section
of the packet page 346. I'm looking at page number 2. Do you want me to wait a
minute for everybody to be there?
(All talking).
Kubby/ I'm on page 346 which is page 2 of the ordinance.
(All talking).
Thornberry/I'm the office assistant. My job is to help you with this application.
Lehman/OK.
Vanderhoef/It's all in what you want.
(All talking).
Kubby/Page 346. And I'm looking at I think the 2nd to the last sentence before the
repealer. It starts "in addition the Boards public report shall not include."
Norton/Yea.
Kubby/That sentence. Because that part of the sentence is first but it shall not include
any discipline or personnel matters although they can make general comment.
Somehow that seems awkward to me.
Dilkes/That' s part of the current ordinance.
Kubby/OK.
Dilkes/That's not a change.
Kubby/OK. I still think it's awkwardly worded but OK.
Dilkes/Well. Not my wording but it's part of the current ordinance.
Kubby/Well is there a possibility without changing the meaning to changing the wording
while we're doing the ordinance or do we have to go through some process with
the PCRB?
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Dilkes/Well.
Kubby/Well maybe I'll say what my suggested wording would be and you all can decide
if it's if we should deal with it or not. It's just kind of switching the phrases to
say "the board may comment as generally as to whether the board believes
discipline is appropriate without commenting on the extent or form of the
discipline" which is currently there. Second sentence, "the board shall not include
any specific discipline or personnel matters in this comments".
Lehman/That just says it cleaner.
Kubby/Yea, it says it the first part it says you shall not comment but you can comment
generally, somehow that seems ftmny.
Norton/Yea. Well they come, I see what you mean yea.
Kubby/I will call Eleanor with that wording and she can tell us tomorrow night if it's
something we can act on or not.
Dilkes/I think we can, I mean I think we can, it doesn't change the substance of it.
Lehman/Right.
Dilkes/It just changes the.
Kubby/The order.
Lehman/Does anybody have a problem with that?
O'Donnell/Discipline.
Norton/No I don't think minor.
(All talking).
Kubby/Content thing that we've already discussed I'm just making it clear. I'll get the
wording to Eleanor and then we can maybe do that tomorrow night. Thank you.
Lehman/OK. Anything else?
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4). (Agenda #9. CONSIDER A ORDINANCE AMENDING TITLE 14 ENTITLED
"UNIFORM DEVELOPMENT CODE," CHAPTER 1 ENTITLED
"STREETS, SIDEWALKS, AND PUBLIC RIGHT-OF-WAY
GENERALLY," ARTICLE E ENTITLED "SIGNS IN PUBLIC PLACES,"
SECTION 4 ENTITLED "EXCEPTIONS" OF THE CITY CODE TO
AMEND SIGNS IN PUBLIC PLACES.) (FIRST CONSIDERATION)
Norton/Item 9 or something on signs and the fight of way. Is that, all that does is modify
the ordinance by giving the City Manager the option to approve exceptions is that
fight? Is that what that does?
Vanderhoef/Well it seems that it's just for those two public agencies.
Norton/Well somewhere it mentions just the two agencies but I can't imagine that would
be the only two that might ever be involved. For example University Hospitals
wasn't mentioned there.
Vanderhoef/Well that' s a matter of property.
Norton/Well I there might be wanting to put a sign on their property I didn't know.
What is the implications? Is that just giving you exception authority Steve is that
the idea?
Atkins/That's what I thought it was.
Norton/I didn't know why those two were called out. Did they have signs on our
property now?
Atkins/They have some, yea I know Mercy for sure.
Norton/In the fight of way?
Atking/In the fight of way when they do their renovation.
Norton/But conceivably other public or other bodies like that might conceivably I didn't
know where the limits were.
Atkins/The only other one I thought about was the Veterans Hospital for some reason
they choose to.
Norton/But a realty office presumably wouldn't qualify.
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Atkins/No that's for profit.
Norton/But a high school might?
Atkins/Yea I guess hard to see but yea high school's might your right.
Norton/I just want to be sure that it was I think it says something to your discretion I
don't think those two bodies are called out so those two agencies are called out in
the ordinance.
Dilkes/No they are not.
Kubby/Crisis Center or some other nonprofit entity?
Dilkes/It has to be a location of general public interest. I mean I think there I mean I
think it implies that I mean this is a place where lots of people.
Norton/Well I can understand if it's left up to the City Manager then he makes the
decision about whether it is and presumably if he doesn't know he discusses it
with us before that otherwise it applies to any could apply to any agency.
Atkins/It seems I'm going to have to ask Eleanor before we do it anyway.
Dilkes/It's a general.
Thornberry/What' s a general public?
Dilkes/Then I'll ask Doug.
Norton/Well Proctor & Gamble might need a sign for all I know in their fight of way. I
don't know.
Kubby/They're not nonprofit.
Vanderhoef/But do we have anything that would say only for non-profits? I mean we're
talking about it that way but there isn't anything in the ordinance that would say
that the exception is?
Dilkes/Is Mercy a nonprofit Doug?
Doug Boothroy/Yes.
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Lehman/Yea.
Boothroy/Nonprofit yea but it wasn't just for nonprofits.
Dilkes/It's not just for.
Madan Karr/Doug.
Boothroy/Gol, I hate.
Karr/I know I hate asking.
Boothroy/No we were trying to limit it to major public interest type institutions, the
schools would be a good one, hospitals, we did not want to open it up to
businesses or non-profits.
Norton/Yea because church's would be interested yea.
Boothroy/Yea and there' s a lot of different types of non-profits that you know.
Norton/Well I'm just am trying to get some unclear domain.
Dilkes/I think the history, correct me if I'm wrong Doug but there' s a moratorium at
some point all the signs the ordinance requires that all of the signs be out of the
public fight of way.
Boothroy/Right.
Dilkes/So this allows for placement of signs in the fight of way. And I think your going
to be guided to some extent by the history of what types of organizations in our
community have been allowed to place signs in the right of way.
Boothroy/That's exactly correct and we have very few private signs left in the right of
way. Over the last 10 or 15 years most of them have disappeared.
Vanderhoef/Ambulance entrance is one of those good ones.
Boothroy/Yes that's correct.
Norton/Well if there were somebody that knows what your talking about in advance it
couldn't hurt to be accurate otherwise. Doesn't seem it could hurt. It could be a
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little clearer I don't know whether that means hanging it up while your deciding
what your talking about exactly or not.
Kubby/So I mean does that mean that we want to ask staff that they can look at that for
tomorrow night and if they (can't hear).
Norton/Well maybe they can vefify it even for tomorrow night and insert some wording
that would make clear who we're referring to, I don't know I would think about
people putting election signs in the fight of way don't they?
(All talking).
Norton/I understand. Probably is legal now freedom of speech. (can't hear). I
understand OK, see what you can to clarify, I'm not going to make a court case
out of it.
Champion/
Dilkes/I think this is one of those examples where your between a rock and a hard place.
I mean if you get specific about it then we might as well break, you know we
might as well get approval from you each time we put something in the fight of
way I mean there's going to have to be a generality to this.
Norton/OK. Fine.
Dilkes/But I think we can look at it.
Boothroy/That's true.
Atkins/Assuming if I exercise the wrong judgement I'll hear about it.
Lehman/You'll hear about it. OK.
5. (Agenda #20. CONSIDER A RESOLUTION APPROVING AND
AUTHORIZING EXECUTION OF AN AGREEMENT WITH MICHAEL
S., CHRISTINE M., MONICA B., AND MARC B. MOEN FOR
TEMPORARY USE OF PUBLIC RIGHT-OF-WAY FOR A PORTION OF
CLINTON STREET IN IOWA CITY, IOWA.
AGENDA #21. CONSIDER A RESOLUTION APPROVING AND
AUTHORIZING EXECUTION OF AN AGREEMENT WITH THE MOEN
GROUP FOR TEMPORARY USE OF PUBLIC RIGHT-OF-WAY FOR A
PORTION OF CLINTON STREET IN IOWA CITY, IOWA.)
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Champion/This is with the Moen's rebuilding a building on Clinton Street and closing of
sidewalk. Are they going to put in temporary sidewalk along so that people don't
OK.
Atkins/It's a six foot covered sidewalk it's a.
Kubby/The other issue is the alley being closed. And so I'd like to I guess at least if not
tonight at least tomorrow night have some discussion about how long will it be
closed and do they really need it to have to be closed that whole period of time
because it is inconvenient for other businesses that use that alley. As well as
there' s a lot of pedestrian traffic.
Atkins/I don't know, check with Chuck.
O'Donnell/Also can you get across the ped mall walk because you couldn't for a period
of time.
Lehman/By the end of this week almost the entire College block what 200 block 100
block will be done. The lights will be up by the end of the week. It won't be
completely done but it will be but all of the fencing will be gone.
O'Donnell/Good.
Vanderhoef/While we're still on the Moen and that. I'm a little unclear what the
difference is between the Item 20 and Item 21.
Norton/I think they're duplicates aren't they?
Vanderhoef/Well I thought maybe they were duplicates or that 21 was suppose to be
saying College Street instead of Clinton Street.
Dilkes/No. One deals with the Federal Savings and Loan Building and one deals with
the old the building that burned down.
Vanderhoef/Oh OK between the two spaces.
Atkins/Same issue, two spaces.
Thomberry/212 S. Clinton and 212.
(All talking).
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Dilkes/Well they say, their both, no no they don't. One says 212 S. Clinton and one says
103 College Street. Their both, the purpose of both agreements is to facilitate the
construction.
Lehman/OK.
Dilkes/But we're talking about two separate properties owned by different entities.
Vanderhoef/By two different.
Lehman/All fight. Dean.
6. (Consent Calendar #2b(3) Parks and Recreation Commission - Terry Trueblood).
Thornberry/Terry I've got two things for you. One being on page 33 of 476 what is
a Prairie Pothole regarding Kiwanis Park development?
Lehman/You don't really want to know.
Thornberry/I don't really want to know with respect to the Prairie Pothole cost issues.
Trueblood/Prairie Pothole is nonexistent.
Thomberry/OK.
Lehman/OK what's your next question?
7). Thornberry/Willow Creek Trail. The contract with the consultant includes
investigation of an underpass to Highway 1 which would enable the trail to go
past the airport onto the Iowa River. If that' s a, your contemplating putting a
underpass under Highway 1 for a trail?
Trueblood/We're studying that possibility. It's not part of this upcoming Willow Creek
Trail project.
Thornberry/OK. The problem that I have with that is that we at one time tried to or at
least contemplated putting an overpass on Highway 6 in the southeast part of town
over Highway 6 to get College and Grad school students from south over the
highway to get to school and we couldn't do it well we didn't do it because of the
cost involved and now we're contemplating or at least guess.
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Jeff Davidson/Yea that link Dean is part of the Willow Creek Trail plan which you have
blessed, the plan that takes it from Napoleon Park across the river and then all the
way up to Hunter' s Run subdivision. There are three huge 12 x 12 box culverts
that are there and what we're hoping to do is to be able to use one of those boxes
similar to what Coralville just did trader 1-80 instead of having to build something
across the highway. If we can determine that you know by doing what Coralville
did which basically two feet up they put a mesh floor in the drainage culvert if we
can do the same kind of thing on Highway 1 it would save $700,000. That's
where we're investigating.
(All talking).
Lehman/OK next.
Thornberry/That's it.
8). (Consent Calendar #2e(8) CONSIDER A RESOLUTION AUTHORIZING THE
MAYOR TO SIGN AND THE CITY CLERK TO ATTEST THE FY 2000
AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE CITY OF IOWA CITY AND THE CITY
OF UNIVERSITY HEIGHTS FOR THE PROVISION OF TRANSIT
SERVICE WITHIN THE CORPORATE LIMITS OF UNIVERSITY
HEIGHTS.
Norton/I have one question that back on the consent calendar but what will the increase
to University Heights for transit is two percent but our personnel costs are going
up three aren't they? I thought maybe Joe would tell me how they get such a
bargain. Not that I want to doubt your.
Champion/...One bus every other day.
Fowler/I really don't know where we came up with the two percent, Don Yucuis
calculated that out and he's not here. But we're recovering part of our increased
personnel cost and that was the way that we came about that number.
Norton/So you're not laying all the increased costs on them.
Fowler/No.
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Kubby/I think that' s an important thing that we talk about, maybe clarify what the two
percent entails because in other areas we want the user to pay back (can't hear). I
mean there's some benefits to Iowa City residents and maybe that's part of it to go
through there cause you can stop and get off at University Heights.
Norton/In other words your rationale for the two percent rather than three?
Kubby/Right there are Iowa City property tax dollars that are subsidizing that service to
U Heights so it's one way to talk about it so.
Norton/And in these day' s we're worrying about every dollar let me tell ya.
Kubby/It's a good question. I think we need that clarified.
Norton/Well see maybe you can clarify it tomorrow night.
Thornberry/What do you do charge them another dollar to get off at University Heights?
(All talking).
Lehman/(can't hear).
Thornberry/When I, I'm sorry you've.
Norton/Go ahead.
9). (Agenda Item #10. CONSIDER AN ORDINANCE AMENDING CITY CODE
TITLE 8, CHAPTER 8, ENTITLED "POLICE CITIZENS' REVIEW
BOARD," SECTION 7, ENTITLED "DUTIES OF THE BOARD:
COMPLAINT REVIEW AND GENERAL DUTIES," REGARDING THE
IDENTIFICATION OF COMPLAINANT(S) AND/OR POLICE
OFFICER(S) IN THE BOARD'S PUBLIC REPORT OF A SUSTAINED
COMPLAINT TO THE CITY COUNCIL.)
Thornberry/On item 10 (he reads Item #10, I know that they've got the capability of
putting out names out now is that not correct?
Dilkes/Yes.
Thornberry/What is the, what is the balancing test that they would do to determine
whether to identify the complaint or the police officer, what's the test?
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Dilkes/It requires them to balance the public interest in disclosure of the identity of the
complainant and/or police officer against the public harm and the privacy interest
of those individuals.
Lehman/Measure that one.
Thomberry/Hell of a way. OK. I don't know what you said I guess. What would they?
Dilkes/That's going to be, Dean that's going to be a real fact specific kind of analysis it's
going to depend on the circumstances, it could depend for instance on let me give
you an example. Let's say the complainant was the victim of a crime and so one
of the factors you might consider in whether your going to identify the victim in
your public report is the victim's privacy you know and as a victim of that crime
so often, sometimes sexual assault victims are not identified. There might be
some public harm involved in identification of an officer for instance. If there
was an ongoing investigation that might be compromised by identification at that
time. Those are the kind of things their going to have to take into consideration.
Norton/A ten days notice is sufficient for the person to seek a court injunction or
something if there?
Dilkes/Well yea, I think they could get it on file.
Norton/Some kind of action.
Dilkes/I mean I think there's I'm not suggesting that there would be grounds for such
injunction but yes I think there would be.
Norton/I understand but it's a possibility (can't hear).
Dilkes/Yes.
Thornberry/I guess I don't understand why they need this.
Dilkes/Well we borrowed the balancing test from some court from some case laws, the
Supreme Court has said for instance in looking at whether a investigative report
like a DCI report for instance would be a matter of public record that you have to
balance the public interest in disclosure versus the harm that could be caused by
disclosure. For instance, one factor would be whether the investigation was
ongoing you wouldn't want to release parts of investigative report if the
investigation was still ongoing it could compromise safety to the victims you
know that kind of thing. In that particular case there had been a finding of civil
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liability yet there was no discipline within the police department and so there was
a public perception that you know what's going on here is there some kind of
cover up and the court found in that particular case that it would be an important
important to have that DCI report released. So there' s all, those are the kind of
things conceivably enter into that analysis. But it seems to me that' s important to
have that balancing test because it imposes some rules on the PCRB that it takes
it out of just complete, it's just they're discretion. They have told you I think and
I think their public reports have reflected this that they intend to use that authority
sparingly but there should be some rules or some kind of analysis that they have
to go through in deciding whether to release those names.
Thomberry/Well then this would, this would then make it a little more difficult for them
to release the name if there were some insinuating circumstances.
Norton/Yes.
Kubby/It gives them guidelines (can't hear).
Dilkes/It would give them guidelines that they have to look at yes.
Norton/Further hurdle.
10.) Vanderhoef/This is for Joe, I guess maybe or Jeff whatever. The Mayflower fight-
of-way that they're going to use construction, what are they going to do with
Cambus?
Jeff Davidson/I have no idea but I assume they've thought of it. Because I just found out
more specifically by tomorrow?
Vanderhoef/I'd like to know more, I'd like to know whether their going to just
discontinue that route or something because I'm concerned about safety on that
street.
Davidson/We'll call over to Dave and Bfian tomorrow and find ont what their doing.
Vanderhoef/Thank you.
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11. (Consent Calendar #2e(7). CONSIDER A RESOLUTION FIXING THE TIME
AND PLACE FOR RECEIPT OF BIDS AND DIRECTING THE CITY
CLERK TO PUBLISH ADVERTISEMENTS FOR BIDS FOR
CONSTRUCTION OF THE IOWA CITY TRANSIT FACILITY
METHANE ABATEMENT PROJECT, PHASE 1.
Vanderhoef/And then I have on Consent Calendar. Why are we going back out, well
other bids weren't ready for the Transit Facility Methane Abatement thing?
Ron Logsdon/We're dealing with federal funds and administered by the state we put it
all together under city rules originally and then the state wanted us to separate it
into better qualifications first and then take bids because what they were saying,
what their interpretation even though it's stretching it in our opinion I guess that
we could not use any criteria except low bids so you could have somebody that
wasn't qualified to do the drilling come in and bid it and we'd have to take the
low bid so by separating it out they were saying we could first identify whose
qualified to do that type of drilling and then of those people qualified take bids
and then it would be based on low bid of those people who are qualified.
Vanderhoef/So this is a two-step individual process?
Logsdon/Yes. And in the process what we needed to do is come back and readvertise
and set a new bid opening date and that's what we're doing now.
Vanderhoef/Thank you.
12). (Agenda #17. CONSIDER A RESOLUTION AWARDING CONTRACT AND
AUTHORIZING MAYOR TO SIGN AND CITY CLERK TO ATTEST
CONTRACT FOR THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE IOWA CITY CIVIC
CENTER THIRD FLOOR ADDITION AND FIRST FLOOR
RENOVATIONS PROJECT.)
Vanderhoef/Then one more for the engineer' s somehow or another Item #17. A contract
for the third floor addition and first floor renovation. I want to know if our
engineer's estimate on that was increased considerably after we gplit the project
apart. The first bid came in for the combined project at 1.8 almost 1.9 million and
so if you take this low bid that we got on this one and subtract it out there would
only be like $600,000 to finish off the police department so maybe that 1.8 is not
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totally out of line or else this bid of 1.2 is very high. I don't think it's that good of
deal.
Atkins/I think the important thing to look at those bids is you put your thumb over the
first three maybe the first four because that' s the way I'd read the market. I think
we hit it fight. 286, 294, 298, 320 those are all close bids.
Lehman/Well no I think here point that if a million 8 did the entire job is a million 3 for
that portion of it a reasonable bid.
Atkins/I can't comment on the engineer's estimate.
Norton/There are two different points of time too aren't they?
Vanderhoef/Well it's a month apart.
Norton/Is that all?
Vanderhoef/That's all it was yea. I went back and pulled off the agenda sheet and see
what the bids were and the low bid on the combined thing was $1.887. So that's
only $620 more than what this bid is coming in and not even finishing off the
police department.
Lehman/Of course the police department that's already built, that is just finishing the
inside portion.
Atkins/That' s finish work but also but none of the other remodeling was incorporated
remember.
Norton/Well we never had a separate estimate on that.
Lehman/No but we also added some lobby work and police department lobby whatever.
Atkins/We did a couple of those things but we also pulled out renovation for HIS, you
know when we start moving space all around, renovations to the police
department, and planning department planning. None of those are acted into this.
Vanderhoef/In to which? Into this bid we've got right now that we're to approve
tomorrow?
Atkins/No you can't (can't hear). I'm not sure I understand the question. We did.
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Vanderhoef/It assumes this bid is very high for the amount of work that's being done
relative to the previous bid for the entire project.
O'Donnell/How would we have know that they didn't separate them, they didn't separate
them out. Police department' s already built 2nd floor, all we're doing is finishing
work out. I guess we'd have to know what the bid to be to finish that would be
before we could decide if this one.
Norton/Let' s clear it up for tomorrow we need.
Atkins/I'm not sure I don't know what I'm clearing up folks.
Lehman/Would it be very helpful if we got an estimate from Rick or somebody else as to
what the cost of renovation for the police department alone would have been.
And if that number is $5 or 6 hundred thousand this is obviously a good bid. If
that number is a million dollars then this bid obviously is too high.
Vanderhoef/That' s where I am thank you.
Norton/Ifthat's just for not the lobby, cause I don't know where the lobby renovation.
Lehman/That's been added onto this.
Vanderhoef/Well and you know on some of our bidding we have when we got to try bids
why we went back and we asked if they were factoring in a higher estimate and so
I don't know whether our engineer' s estimates it's coming in obviously what was
bid however did they refactor that because the other one came in so high.
Norton/Presume that we can clarify that by tomorrow and I'm not quite sure what first
floor renovations are included, I guess I've got to go back to make sure I
understand what all is included in this one.
Vanderhoef/Yea.
Lehman/Obviously the staff feels comfortable with the bidder or they wouldn't
recommend it.
Atkins/I feel comfortable with the bid I'm just not so sure how to answer your question.
We bid a package.
(END OF REEL 99-64 SIDE 1)
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Atkins/Factors.
Norton/Yea yea.
Lehman/Well I think there's a couple questions (can't hear).
Kubby/Rick' s estimate of about a months ago he should have notes about what part was
police station finishing work.
Atkins/Oh no I completely understand.
Lehman/I think it's all we need.
Thornberry/Just a rule of thumb, I have found that engineer' s estimate a little lower than
architects because architects in looking down at the next item number 18 the
architects estimate was $350,000 for this concession/rest room building and the
bids are a lot higher than the architects estimate I haven't heard you say anything
about that.
Vanderhoef/You've got a good point because that other previous bid that we turned
down was an architects estimate instead of an engineer's. I did read that today.
Thornberry/Yea.
13). (Consent Calendar 2e(6). CONSIDER A RESOLUTION APPROVING AND
AUTHORIZING EXECUTION OF AN APPLICATION FOR HAZARD
MITIGATION GRANT PROGRAM THROUGH IOWA EMERGENCY
MANAGEMENT DIVISION TO THE FEDERAL EMERGENCY
MANAGEMENT AGENCY BY THE CITY OF IOWA CITY.)
Norton/Steve while your talking to Rick maybe he'll explain what the hazard mitigation
aspect of Iowa River of the arts colony or the arts campus sewer work. What' s the
litigation part of that?
Atkins/In '93 when that flooded and this project will allow us to minimize potential for
the flooding of that in the future and as I understand it. I don't have specific
details we're entitled to go back, well what happened in '93 if we can't prevent
then this project would make (can't hear) overspent.
Norton/OK. It's the flood hazard your talking about?
Atkins/Yes that' s the hazard yes.
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14). (Agenda Item #24. CONSIDER A RESOLUTION AUTHORIZING
AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE CITY OF IOWA CITY AND THE IOWA
CITY LIBRARY BOARD OF TRUSTEES AND THE AMERICAN
FEDERATION OF STATE, COUNTY, AND MUNICIPAL EMPLOYEES,
LOCAL #183, AFL-CIO, TO BE EFFECTIVE JULY 1, 1999, THROUGH
JUNE 30, 2001.
Thornberry/On Item #24 the we are going to (can't hear).
(All talking).
Thornberry/Well I'm just saying this agreement between the city and the Board of
Trustees for the library. That's a six year six percent across the board increase
over two years.
Atkins/Two years.
Lehman/Three percent increase.
Thornberry/Yea three percent a year plus $.05 cents an hour in each fiscal year for
employees working evening and overnight shifts. That isn't the normal 9-5
Monday through Friday shifts?
Dale Helling/Right the I believe the second shift will be any shift that starts after 1:30
PM, and third will be after 10:00 PM and before 2:00 AM.
Thornberry/Oh, OK, I've got some questions I'll ask later.
Lehman/OK. Let's go to traffic calming and guidelines on parking prohibition.
Traffic Calming Guidelines/Parking Prohibition (1P2 of 6/11 pkt)
Davidson/The Mayor.
Lehman/I asked that we put on the agenda.
Davidson/Mayor asked to put on the agenda.
Lehman/And I primarily because I think that we've created an expectation that I'm not
sure the council is willing to obviously we're not willing to go with. The
Goosetown folks came to us and obviously the majority of those who responded
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wanted us to do something as far as calming and we did not do it. I think we have
to give or I'd be more comfortable if we told the neighborhoods what they can
reasonably expect from the council if they do have a petition or the petition the
traffic engineer for a parking prohibition or for traffic calming under what
circumstances they would expect us to comply with their request. Because I don't
think that we've, at this point in time I'm not sure that we've given any indication
at all except that we generally will do that.
O'Donnell/Unless there's a concern for the fire department or the police department.
Thornberry/Well not even that because the fire department requested we not do that like
you've said if 100 percent of the people on Dodge Street wanted traffic calming
we wouldn't do it.
Davidson/Limited to locals and collectors.
Kubby/Because it's an arterial street, it's a state highway, it's not in the guidelines.
Thornberry/I understand all fight. I can give you another street and we wouldn't do it.
Jeff Davidson/It is limited to local streets and collector streets that have a traffic volume
of 3,000 vehicles a day or less. We have had two collector streets requested for
traffic calming by neighborhoods, one was Greenwood Drive and was Court
Street because Muscatine and Summit. That part of Court is a collector and both
of those streets were over 3,000 vehicles a day which made them ineligible for the
traffic calming program. The notion being that regardless of what we call them
they're carrying arterial levels of traffic and you shouldn't do traffic calming on a
street with that many vehicles. So that has kicked in a couple times in the process
you have.
Lehman/So Jeff the only criteria that we're using fight now is whether or not a
neighborhood happens to be unhappy with the amount of traffic or speed that they
have. We go out we measure the speed or whatever.
Davidson/That's correct.
Lehman/But what trigger's this is if a neighborhood is not happy with cars parked in
from of their homes or feel the cars are going to fast, it has absolutely no there' s
no set of criteria that' s applied by the neighborhood it's just whether or not they
happen to want.
Davidson/It is, it requires absolutely that the neighborhood request the action.
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Lehman/Right. But they have no criteria that they're required to have for requesting it.
Davidson/The second step for us then is to do put the counter's out, see what the speed
is, see what the volume is and we have criteria 500 vehicles a day for local street,
2500 for a collector street, those are the volume criteria that we have. The speed
criteria is it must be at least 5 mph over the posted speed limited. And typically
the one's we've had have been right at 5 mph or 6 or 7. I mean we haven't had
any that were 15 over to that degree. But once it meets one of those two criteria
and remember we discussed requiring it to meet both criteria and we decided one
or the other would be satisfactory. We then go into the whole process of sitting
down with the neighborhood, developing a project that's appropriate that we feel
is safe and then going to a survey of the neighborhood before it comes back to
you.
Kubby/It seems like the real issue here is making sure that if this whole set of
circumstances are gone through it is simple majority that it still may not be
considered by council and that that needs to be explained up front.
Norton/That we still have the bottom line yea.
Kubby/That maybe there needs to be a paragraph explaining that before any of the
criteria are explained to say even if you go through all of this it is still at the
discretion of the city council to make a decision whether or not these calming
strategies will be approved. So that it's very clear that you have to go through the
process to get a chance for approval but it's up to us and it's not automatic.
Davidson/We are.
Kubby/Because the criteria seem to be very reasonable although I must remind people
that it does say simple majority, but it in order to be considered for
implementation.
Davidson/Yea we are emphasizing that more now given the Goosetown situation. We
presently have three requests actually I guess one of them has been thrown out,
that was the Court Street one that didn't was over 3,000 vehicles a day. But we
have two under consideration right now and Doug and Marcia have done probably
more of a complete job that we've done in the past of explaining what Karen said.
Kubby/But it should be in writing.
Norton/It should be in writing.
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Lehman/I think that's exactly.
(all talking).
Norton/I think it's very seldom we'd ever want to be controlled simply by a majority
given the (can't hear).
Lehman/They're not going to be controlled by anything I don't think.
Norton/Well that's what I mean and that needs to be explicit.
Lehman/Eleanor.
Dilkes/I think we want to embellish that a little bit the discretion of the city council after
review of all the factors including you know just the.
Norton/Well not just arbitrary yea.
Thornberry/I would like to, I would like to bring up Highland since it's on here, TV,
news, and everything else. And I could embellish for the next 15 minutes on that
but I won't. What are we going to do about Highland? It look's a little drastic
and I understand that after talking to Doug that that those chicanes were dug out
underneath the chicanes for drainage purposes. And if it were a temporary
measure for a year to see if it would work or not why go to the expense and the
trouble and everything to dig them out and put in dirt which is going to do nothing
but grow weeds and are these mini parks? Is the parks and rec. take care of these
chicanes that are going to be weed infested or whose job is it to mow these
chicanes, their filled with dirt fight now. And number 1 I think we do something
to minimize the chicanes if not take them out all together, I don't mind the
chokers near as much as I really think we made a mistake in putting the chicanes
as drastic as they are.
Norton/There are certainly. I have trouble convincing anybody that the trucks went
through there and I got at least I don't know how many calls they were ringing off
the wall about near misses and dangerous particularly with the parking on both
sides people parking up into the chicanes so that.
Kubby/Can we make sure that our generalized discussion doesn't get lost I mean go. We
should definitely have this discussion but we also need to make sure the the
agenda item is completed.
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Norton/Criteria. Right.
Davidson/To answer some of Dean's these questions obviously we are still in the
development stage of this program and we have not done an installation like
Highland and it is an experiment just like College and Washington and Teg Drive
have been an experiment. There was a determination made by Doug and Rick
Fosse that the chokers combined with the chicanes were the appropriate
installation on Highland because of the configuration of the side streets and also
the fact that we are now on streets that the fire department uses consistently in
their operations we are not putting speed humps on those streets so street humps
were thrown out for Highland. Dean the landscaping part of it is something that
together with College and Washington we're going to see how that goes. We've
got some commitment from the neighborhood to maintain the areas, we did feel
like we had to sock up about the street to get it to work correctly that if you decide
a year from now or even between a year from now that you don't want those it's
basically laid on top of the street we can take them off, fill in part of the street
(can't hear).
Thornberry/They are laid on top of the street? They're not cut out then?
Davidson/Right. There is a cutout to allow for drainage but otherwise the asphalt is
basically laid on top of the street and they can be removed fairly easily. I mean
their considered temporary.
Thornberry/I would suggest that we rectify this problem immediately, not wait a year.
Champion/Too early.
Thornberry/Not wait a year.
Davidson/Before you direct us to change those let me just say one more thing. They are
obviously designed in case it escapes anybody to slow vehicles down and they do
that and they do that.
Thornberry/Yes they do.
Davidson/And they are designed such that the way those you've got two things that
come out in those chicanes and you have to do an "S" through them.
Determination was made to use 9 foot lanes on those which a lot of people think
is to narrow. But if 10 foot lanes were used or what would happen is that you
would be able to basically go through them if you didn't have an opposing vehicle
without making an "S" movement which you can do without slowing down.
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O'Donnell/Sure.
Davidson/And that' s why the 9 foot lanes were used. I guess what I'm trying to tell you
is if you direct us to shave those back so that the lanes are wider you may be
defeating the purpose of slowing the vehicles down.
Thomberry/I would like to shave them back to the point where their not there but I think
it's just it's overkill, I think it's an accident waiting to happen. Somebody's going
to run over those things and my god those things aren't suppose to be in the
middle of the street, the streets are for moving vehicles and if and I went through
it the other day and there was a bicycle and I really I almost came to a stop
because of the bicycle was going through. It's dangerous, it's very dangerous and
I don't think we need to keep them there another week.
Davidson/And I would remind the council before you start your discussion this program
exists at your pleasure. We can modify it anyway you like and in fact we do
appreciate the discussion tonight because obviously we're out there especially
Doug on the front lines with the neighborhoods, we want to make sure we're
doing what you want with the neighborhoods.
O'Donnell/Jeff we want to do that you know we agreed to traffic calming on that street
and this certainly has worked.
Champion/It has worked.
O'Donnell/Every caller I've gotten calls for people who have said I will never drive on
that street again so. But seriously.
(All laughing)
O'Donnell/That wasn't suppose to be funny. We what we do is were putting a car in
harms way and when you make them try and go to the other lane of traffic and I
just I think I think their all right there but I think their too extreme.
Norton/I mean I do too.
O'Donnell/Because I've driven them several times and we agreed with this
neighborhood, they followed the procedure that we have and we've done it. And I
don't remember the fire department or the police department saying that they
didn't want this to happen.
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Thomberry/Well they didn't know how drastic it was going to be, I mean they didn't, we
didn't either.
O'Donnell/Well I don't think that they have objections of this did they?
Champion/Obj ect to it all the time.
Vanderhoef/Oh yea.
O'Donnell/No I don't think they did, they did in Goosetown.
Doug Ripley/The fire department I can let Andy speak for them but we did give them
review of the design beforehand and we also tested them before they were
installed with the fire department and transit.
Lehman/Did we hit many trucks?
Andy Rocca/Not many trucks. But I can tell you 6-8 months ago when we talked about
traffic calming and I told you we are adamantly opposed to traffic calming period.
And in fact traffic calming regardless whether it's humps, chicanes, chokers,
circles whatever you want to say will slow us down and it has. Our trucks have
been through there, we can get through but (can't hear).
Lehman/Can you get through if somebody' s coming?
Rocca/Well if they yield to us. By law their suppose to, if their in the middle we're
going to have to wait until they clear.
O'Donnell/How about if a car' s parked pretty close to one of those chicanes they have
there? Can you (can't hear).
Rocca/We helped spot those signs initially with Doug and they should be signed
appropriately if somebody is illegally parked that' s another story. But they should
be ticketed and towed.
Thornberry/How fast do you go through those chicanes?
Rocca/I can't tell you off the top of my head Dean, I mean it slows us down considerably
your not running speed you know like 20-25 through a residential area your going
to slow way down.
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O'Donnell/Well my point was your driving down a city street you should never have to
enter the other lane to travel the street.
Champion/You don't have to enter the other lane.
O'Donnell/Yes you do several times.
Champion/Aren't the stripes repainted?
(All talking)
O'Donnell/It doesn't matter, they're painted now but you still have to go if you.
Norton/If you go slow enough can stay in your lane.
Lehman/When you drive a bike.
(All talking).
O'Donnell/Have to go to the other side of the street.
Norton/Well let's get serious, I don't you know. The number of call's I've had let me
tell you I've been called everything but up for the last several days but you know
the most idiotic idea I've ever heard, I mean it's really heavy treatment.
Vanderhoef/It is.
Norton/And I keep saying well be patient we're trying to slow you down that' s the idea
and people on the street like it and I you know it's our own policy and so I don't
want to throw the heat on you guys. I just think as Dean says it's overdone
somehow that's my feeling that maybe you say 9 is what is one that I think 10
would scare me. I mean you know for example and it might be substantially
easier to but you would still have I think would have to dock me some I think Jeff.
Davidson/I think two related factors that you should consider when your considering
Highland like you are now. One is that it is a collector street and staff I think did
warn you about having traffic calming on collector streets. Not saying that it's
appropriate or inappropriate but I think your going to hear from people when you
do it on a collector street much more so than on a local street. The other thing,
just one other thing quickly is that I think also the Kirkwood Avenue situation
with the stop signs on Kirkwood Avenue does impact the Highland situation
where you have we've had a number of calls Doug most of them from people
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saying you made it so I can't use Kirkwood now I can't use Highland either. I
mean that' s a perception that' s out there in the community and I think your
decision on the stop signs is a related factor to some which your hearing about
Highland.
Vanderhoef/And for me on both an arterial and on a collector the speed limit is 25 and if
we can regulate that speed on using stop lights on Kirkwood truly you can not go
25 mph you can not go the speed limit on Highland now and go through those
"S"'s. I've tried.
Norton/Oh no.
Vanderhoef/Not at all. Now a collector is suppose to move people to their neighborhoods
and at a reasonable speed of 25.
O'Donnell/If people were doing that Dee we wouldn't need the traffic calmers.
Vanderhoef/Right but the stop signs are stopping the traffic up on the arterial down on
the collector would be more appropriate in my view.
Kubby/See I think there's been a lot of reaction to all of the traffic calming devices and
that it is a new thing for our community to experience. People the country use
these different strategies and I'm sure there's an adjustment for each new strategy
that we decide upon. And I think we need to allow our community to live through
an adjustment period and if we still can't tolerate it then that's the point we need
to decide whether we want to shorten the experiment time or not. I'm not
interested in taking them out I'm interested in us helping facilitate the community,
have some experience with them. Because that 25 mph speed limit is a limit it is
the upper limit legally and that the purpose of those is to slow traffic down so we
should not expect people to go through the traffic calming things to be at the
speed limit when their going through them because that' s the whole purpose of it.
So I want us to figure out how to facilitate this transition for the community and
have it be longer having them there for a couple of days it's natural to have a
negative reaction to change and people just want to get to point A from point B
and they don't really care what else happens in there that I think the experiment
has to run longer before we make any kind of adjustment.
Thornberry/I don't think it's going to get any better.
Lehman/Well I think there' s another factor here I believe that if someone hits one of
those chicanes.
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O'Donnell/That' s fight.
Lehman/And tears up the front of the car or has an accident I would think there's any
question that we can get sued and they can win. I mean these are not I don't think
I've been in the city anywhere this could be considered a common accepted
practice for traffic control.
Kubby/Go to Bellevue Washington. It's (can't hear). I can name a whole bunch.
(All talking).
Thornberry/I stay out of Bellow.
Dilkes/I certainly am not willing to agree with you Ernie that if somebody hits one of
those and we get sued we lose. But the we.
Lehman/Do you disagree with that?
Dilkes/I do.
Lehman/Well good.
Thornberry/But somebody on a bicycle in a rain storm coming down there in the evening
or something like that hits that thing I tell you.
Dilkes/But let me explain. We have immunity for allegations that of defective design of
streets and roads etc. as long as they are designed in accordance with generally
recognized engineering specifications standards etc. Now the problem here is that
although I understand from Jeff that these are designed in accordance with the
specifications that exist for such things there not used everywhere. I mean it's not
a design concept that you see on every plat. And so that may pose some
difficulty.
Davidson/It is an innovative concept, but it is one that we are not on the cutting edge.
We're not developing these, they've been developed in other places, they've been
developed. They are being used in other places in Iowa. How many towns would
you say Doug?
Ripley/The city of Des Moines has traffic circles installed and there' s 3 or 4 cities that
will be installing some sort of device this summer.
Thornberry/Wait a minute, wait a minute, some have some circles yes.
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Ripley/The City of Des Moines installed traffic circles last year.
Thornberry/All fight circles are one thing these things on Highland are something else.
Ripley/I'm not aware of any city in Iowa that has these but they are based on the designs
of other cities.
Thornberry/I think we ought to, I think we ought to.
(All talking).
Norton/My point is to get people to go down there and see those which is. And I agree
with you Karen it's not necessarily that they go through at 25 1 just wonder if
there' s not some middle grounder where they can moderate these things a little bit
because I do think that their pretty extreme at the moment. It's hard to even
conceive that you begin to think you can't ever make it. And there's almost that I
(can't hear) understand you have to give people time and I've been encouraging
people I really think they need to give it a chance it's the idea was to slow them
down but one of our purposes says on a collector which this is I guess traffic
diversion should not be an objective or a result. And I've had a number of people
calling saying look I'm not forced over onto the bypass with 13 stoplights
between where I want to go or over on to Kirkwood. Because I'm forced off of
Highland of course they're using Highland as an altemative to Highway 6 so
we're kind of in a tricky situation. I don't want to appear totally unresponsive to
pretty rational complaints.
Davidson/Well we can do whatever you direct us to do.
O'Donnell/I just do not think you should force somebody onto oncoming lane traffic and
that's done on that street.
Dilkes/I wanted to add an addendure to what I said. Jeff I think has told me you can pass
next to the person coming the other way and not go out of, or you can traverse the
whole thing without going out of your lane. And I think that's needs to be pretty
well established regardless of what size of normal vehicle your in because it
would concern me greatly if you couldn't stay within your lane.
Norton/Well you can but at about 3-4-5 mph.
Lehman/Well you can go 6 1 think.
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Norton/6.
(All talking).
Davidson/Today I tested them again and in a city car which is not real large but I was
going 20 through them and I stayed within the yellow lines throughout the entire
route.
O'Donnell/But you went on the other side of the street at some time?
Davidson/No not today I did not, not at 20 mph I didn't. At 25 1 do yes.
O'Donnell/But the chicanes cover half the street.
Davidson/But the lanes have been redefined.
O'Donnell/I know their painted, but that's what I'm saying you our traditional method of
travel you are going into the oncoming traffic.
Norton/Well your going onto the other side of (can't hear).
Dilkes/Doug you said.
O'Donnell/I don't care where the lines are your still going to.
Vanderhoef/I can't imagine this with ice and snow. I just can't imagine.
Dilkes/You said at 25 at the speed limit you can not stay in your lane?
Ripley/At 25 you can go through there but it's hard to stay within the yellow lines. I
have tried.
Norton/It's very hard.
Ripley/But I don't know if you could at 25.
Thornberry/Particularly a vehicle smaller than a midget or a (can't hear) car.
Ripley/I went through it at 20 today fairly comfortably but I don't think you could do it
in a large vehicle at 25 I don't.
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Dilkes/It seems to me that one should be able to presume that at the speed limit they can
stay on their side of the road.
Ripley/The center line was put in more as a guidance, the ones that are actually based on
the design of do not have a center line in them. What they do is they have one
lane of traffic through them what we did was we divided it so people could tell
where the center was.
Norton/I still think it's too extreme I urge that they either be removed or cut back at the
very least.
Thornberry/Do I, do I understand that we have at least four votes to say cut those back to
what point?
Norton/Let's tell them we're still experimenting and let's cut them back and if they
don't do any good, in other words if that leads people to going back to 30 then
we'll have to go back to the drawing board again but in the meantime I think
somebody's going to run into somebody.
Thornberry/Buses go faster than 25. Buses go faster than 25 mph.
Norton/You should be able to comfortably stay in your lane at the speed limit. I think
that will be.
Vanderhoef/I agree with that.
O'Donnell/I went to. We agreed to traffic calming on Highland and I want some method
there but I think this is.
Davidson/OK we will look into cutting back the chicanes on Highland.
Champion/I would just make a statement for the record and for my own mind. This will
be the second time or the third time that's I've been on the city council dealing
with traffic calming. And either we haven't supported it or we've altered what
we're doing or now we're going to remove what we've already been doing. So
we're going to do, either we get rid of traffic calming or we get some solid rules
and foundation of what weDre going to base these decisions on because this is
plain yo-yo and I feel like a yo-yo. In other words the call's I'm getting the
neighborhood is impossible about this. The calls I've had from people who aren't
in the neighborhood of course have not been very positive but frankly I don't care
if you takes you seven minutes to get to work or it takes you five. I really don't
care about that two minutes. And when your going that late in time that's about
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the time we're talking about but I want us to constantly commit sometime to put
down some real rules and what we're going to do for traffic calming.
Kubby/Well that's what the agenda.
Champion/Because this is not fair.
Thornberry/That's fight, but Connie, that's right but when we have done something have
tried something this is a new thing for us, we've got speed humps on Teg Drive,
we've got traffic circles, we've got chokers, now we've got chicanes. Your right,
we ought to find something that fits and use it without.
Norton/It takes some practice, some experimenting I don't see what's so wrong with that.
Thornberry/Well I don't think chicanes is the way to go and we've done something now
that I think we would be remised if we feel that it's not proper. We would be
remiss in not saying let's change it now before something does happen.
Norton/But before we throw out the chicanes let's try widening em a bit and see if that
does see if that does anything for us I think this is a case where we might honor
by it. That's not, we're trying to get it right that's all Connie so it's not a matter
of hard and fast rules. I think when this is a collector street of some consequence
so it's a little different there too than it is on Teg.
Champion/I agree.
(All talking)
Thomberry/We took the chicanes out and leave the chokers in for right now, see what
happens with the chokers. Take the chicanes out.
Vanderhoef/No.
Norton/No that' s too extreme.
Thornberry/We've got the chokers in there.
Norton/Let's modify them first because the chokers if their modified a little bit then even
if their (can't hear) I think their more manageable than the chicanes so if they cut
the chicanes back.
O'Donnell/How much do we cut them back Dee?
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Thornberry/50 percent.
Norton/I'd cut them back to chokers to 10 feet.
Davidson/Why don't you let us, why don't you let us just try and make the lanes wider
and I mean that's what I hear.
Lehman/Well I also think one thing that would make the situation a beck of a little better
if we put stoplights on Kirkwood.
(All talking).
Lehman/I think that, if we'd done that we wouldn't have the problems that we have now
on Highland.
Champion/I don't believe that.
Lehman/Oh I do.
Atkins/Ernie what has been decided? Do you want these cut back about?
(All talking).
Davidson/We look at widening the lanes through the chicanes.
Atkins/OK Just if you hold that, look at it. Do you want these reduced or not? Looking
at means.
Lehman/Oh I think we want them reduced.
(All talking).
Atkins/A confirmation decision or do you want these reduced?
Davidson/We'll reduce them.
O'Donnell/If your going to reduce them your going to reduce them one foot.
Norton/At least.
Dilkes/I don't think you all should engineer it.
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Lehman/No.
Dilkes/For our sake I think.
Thornberry/I think we maybe should have engineered it the first time.
(All talking).
Norton/Well they did the first time, I know it's tough it's terrible tough. I agree with you
we need to leave them in for a while even if we modify them I think we need to
leave them in try to get people use to the fact that we are trying to slow traffic
somewhat we're not trying to kill it we're trying to slow it.
Atkins/I just would prepare yourselves when we send our crews back out and start
shrinking it the phone calls will start again.
Lehman/Except I've talked, I've talked to a number of neighbors out there who called
me and said hey we really appreciate this and I said yes this is fine but except I
really think we were a little too severe and the response that I got from the
neighbors that I talked to was the same thing, yea we appreciate the effort but it
probably was a little too much but we really, don't take them out, because we
really want them.
(All talking).
Lehman/Yea and that's where we're at.
Thomberry/You might not. I would take them out in a heartbeat.
(All talking).
Lehman/All right, now back to the original question. I'm sorry.
Vanderhoeff If your done with that what I would like us to consider is what was proposed
to us originally and there wasn't agreement on the council at that point but traffic
calming was originally planned as Jeff told us tonight for neighborhood streets not
for arterials and collectors. We as a council at that time on a split vote I believe I
was not in favor of putting traffic calming on collector streets and I still think it is
something we should look at at putting into our policy.
Ripley/Not having collectors.
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Vanderhoef/Not having collectors.
Thornberry/Or arterials.
(All talking)
Thornberry/I understand that artefials and collectors should be the same.
Vanderhoef/I can go with neighborhood streets but collectors and artefials.
Lehman/You know there is another thing those streets belong to the people.
Champion/Right.
Lehman/We pay for those with our taxes, their built with our taxes, their maintained with
our taxes, we patrol them with our fire or police cars and our fire engines run on
those streets they belong to the community they don't belong to the neighbors
along which in front of those streets run. I have no problem with traffic calming
ifthere's a public safety issue. I mean ifthere's a real issue of public safety then I
have no problem with us doing something to protect the public. But someone's
convenience to prohibit parking in front of their house or to slow those cars
because the neighbors don't happen to like it I don't think this is a good policy.
(All talking).
Kubby/Well it's based on the 851h percentile so it means that people are breaking the law
consistently.
(All talking)
Davidson/I think Emie was going over to the parking on-street parking policy.
Thornberry/Ways of controlling speed on a street but Ernie's absolutely fight and I
forgot what I was going to say I was enamored with what you said.
(All laughing).
Norton/You never say that to me.
Thornberry/I only remember that word once a month.
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Davidson/Well I would say Emie that the neighborhoods we work with I would certainly
say that the traffic calming requests that we investigate are based on safety
concems clearly. The on-street parking, you know quite frankly we haven't had a
controversial on-street parking issue except for Tower Court since we've been
doing this so I'm not so sure there's there's as big a problem there.
Lehman/That wouldn't bother me having a street people we had prohibited parking
throughout the day we would have a public street sitting there empty all day
because neighbors don't happen to want cars parked on that street and that bothers
me.
O'Donnell/That's not the only place in town though.
Norton/Well let me ask will parking be considered on this street too? What is the
residence arrangement, can they park on both sides now?
Davidson/What street we talking about then?
Norton/On Highland.
Davidson/There's parking permitted on both sides.
Norton/And are they blocked from parking too close to the chicanes?
Davidson/Right now there are no restrictions on parking. If we observe that there's a
problem, if we observe that they're parking too close to it such as that people
can't get through.
Vanderhoef/They are.
Lehman/There's a problem because I've.
(All talking).
Davidson/We'll go out, we'll go out and take some and take a look at that and ifthere's a
problem we'll post that accordingly.
Thornberry/I remember what I was going to say.
Vanderhoef/Oh.
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Thomberry/I understand that there has never been an accident on Highland Street
because of excess speed. People say gees people are going.
Ripley/I can't respond to that because I don't know the answer.
Champion/How many accidents does it take Dean? How many does it take?
Thornberry/I mean there are I mean there other.
(All talking).
Thornberry/There are other streets where there have been accidents because of speed and
there are not chicanes and there are no speed humps and there are no other things
like that. Now in a JCCOG crash analysis for the intersection of Washington
Street and Washington Street Doug Ripley said that they recommended
improvement would be to remove the raised median and replace with lower
medians. Some of those on Iowa Avenue.
Davidson/Because of the visibility issue.
Thornberry/Because of visibility. Traffic engineering.
Norton/People slip through there.
Lehman/Well I think we've already decided that we are going to modify the chicanes.
Thornberry/Take them out.
Lehman/Well I think.
Davidson/We've got the majority of council directed us to widen the lanes through there
which we will do. The collector street issue that Dee raises one of the two areas
that are under consideration right now is a collector street so if that's something
that is a majority of council agrees with please let us know so that we can notify
the neighborhood.
Lehman/All fight. How many want to remove collector streets from traffic calming?
Norton/Well wait a minute, what collector streets are you talking about?
(All talking).
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Lehman/It doesn't make any difference.
(All talking).
Vanderhoef/A collector is a collector.
Champion/Yea I know but well that's not really.
Norton/No somebody's going to, this is a collector.
(All talking).
Champion/All fight but there are other things to consider here. There are in the older
part of the town there were never artefioles or collector streets. We really do have
neighborhood streets being used as collectors and artefioles. Now your talking
about safety, oh sure, you do, Court Street for instance. That is, was never meant
to be an arterial street but it has become one over the years and those houses were
built there long before it became an arterial.
Davidson/East ofMuscatine it's an arterial. West ofMuscatine it's a collector.
Champion/Right, but it really is an arterial. I mean people use it as a artefial.
Davidson/It had the traffic volume, high traffic volume.
Kubby/Right.
Champion/It's like Sheridan are certainly I don't know ifthat's a collector or.
Davidson/It's a collector.
Champion/That was not built as a collector. Now your telling me First Avenue was built
as an arterial, as an arterial. I agree. And although Sheridan is an artefial or
collector I don't know what the difference is it wasn't meant to be at one time and
it has become one so I think you have some, you have some need to recognize that
this collector goes immediately through a neighborhood. Now it's nice that on
Scott Boulevard, their putting multiple dwelling housing, apartments along that
arterial with the garages in the back that their not pulling out into the driveways
and stuff. But all the older part of town people are constantly pulling out onto
those arterioles and collectors and sometimes that can be very very dangerous
because it's the only way to get out of your house and some of those old
dfiveways you can't turn around. I can turn around in mine I don't have a
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problem getting out onto the street but in some of those other parts of town that' s
a real problem. If you want to blankly say that because you live in an older part
of town and your street is a collector and an arterial there' s no such thing as traffic
calming I think that' s very naive and I think it's rude.
Vanderhoef/It's the same, it's the same thing in the other areas of town and a collector
always will have driveways on there and it's a different width and it's a different
carrying mode within a neighborhood.
(All talking).
Norton/Yea we can't, that seem to be butchering the neighborhood and in all cases we've
got to be very careful. Some of these collectors might need the treatment and
some might not.
Kubby/That' s why we have discretion's, because there might be some collectors that it's
appropriate to do certain kinds of traffic calming on and some collectors where
it's not. And that discretion will come here.
Norton/Yea.
Kubby/So I'm in favor of keeping collector in, especially as our community continues to
grow and as downtown continues to be a major destination point for many
reasons. People are going to have to go through older neighborhoods to get there
and there may be some calls where continue thinking about this for some collector
streets.
Thornberry/You've got to, you've got to also determine what the reason, what the reason
is for the street.
Champion/Right right.
Thornberry/Is the street? Like First Avenue, for example, I lived on First Avenue. And
my driveway backed out onto First Avenue and I had to back out onto it. Yea my
wife got hit lost the trunk of her car but I don't recommend traffic calming on
First Avenue.
Champion/No.
Kubby/(can't hear).
Norton/I wouldn't either.
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Thomberry/Yea. But I don't know if it started out as an arterial and it may, you maybe
even tighter than that.
Norton/I just think we need to use discretion on.
(All talking).
Norton/I just think we need to use discretion with respect to this and even here where we
tried something we may have to use even more discretion on how we do it. But
you know it's a matter of trying to fine tune it but I think we were in a pretty good
place.
Lehman/Are there less radical methods of traffic calming that could be used on
collectors? In other words certain certain methods could be used on residential
streets and limit those when it comes to collectors?
Champion/You use (can't hear).
Lehman/We don't have quite as radical of things as we've done.
Davidson/I think that' s part of our evaluation of the different ones that we've done. We
are now at the fire departments request not using speed humps on streets that they
designate as their primary response routes and we always check that out with
them before hand. As I said that you know the chicanes and the chokers on
Highland, we hadn't done that before, it's an experiment that we're fine tuning.
Lehman/Right.
Davidson/But traffic circles and speed humps would not work on on Highland and that' s
part of why we went then you know we've got a whole menu of things that we
look at. You've got the drawing I think in your materials. And you know we
may come to one I can just bet that we'll have extra scrutiny of any chicanes in
the future.
(All talking).
Davidson/That we consider.
Lehman/That's part of a learning process.
Davidson/And that' s part of the learning process exactly.
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Thornberry/But on Highland it's only a few blocks that there's any problem at all
because by the time you get to Yewell Street going east you can't go more than
20 mph anyway.
Davidson/The valley gutters on.
(All talking).
Vanderhoef/Oh yea.
Davidson/Right once you get east ofLukirk I think it is the valley gutters start with the
cross streets on theother end west of
(All talking).
Davidson/West of, west of where we ended them it gets into the commercial areas that's
why it's limited in that area that's.
Lehman/All fight then as far as traffic calming if neighbors want to pursue this are we
agreed that we want to make it very very clear that it will be at the very outset at
the discretion of council whether or not to allow traffic calming?
Thornberry/They need to know that in front.
Lehman/Even if they, even if they comply with everything we've asked for.
Davidson/And that's happening all ready.
Lehman/Staff recommends whatever and we can still say yes or no.
Davidson/We're doing that already.
Lehman/All fight, they know that?
Davidson/Yes.
Lehman/Do we want to do anything more than that?
Champion/Well I'd like the Eleanor worded it though.
Lehman/She does really good at that.
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Thomberry/She really does.
Lehman/We don't know what you said Eleanor but it was good.
Dilkes/Is there, is there a statement like that in the traffic calming?
Davidson/No.
Dilkes/We probably should put it in writing.
Davidson/OK.
Kubby/So I have a suggestion on the on-street parking or on not really a question but a
suggestion. Is the number 1 thing that processes it complain to suggestions
received from a person concern of these existing situation. And it see I can only
really think at this point of one situation where I would want to allow one person
to trigger the whole process of a postcard survey. And that is if someone wants to
request a disabled spot in front of their house. That to me is OK that one person
triggers evaluating whether that's appropriate or not. But for other things like no
parking or calendar parking or whatever I think that it should be more consistent
with the traffic calming that either a neighborhood association has to trigger it or a
petition of some kind from I don't know what to suggest, you need 10 signatures
just so it's not just one person that triggers a postcard survey to the whole
neighborhood or the block.
Lehman/No no, I absolutely agree with that.
Kubby/Except for the disabled parking.
Lehman/Yea. But no one person should not.
(All talking).
Kubby/There may be another special exception that I'm just not thinking of but staff
might think of, I guess I wanted to bring that up that seems kind of. That's always
kind of bothered me. It's a powerful tool for an individual, and I said it you
know you request you get a postcard survey. But it also seems odd that one
person that one person can trigger that process.
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Ripley/Karen the reason we don't do petitions is we have no way of knowing how that
information was collected or, for example, if they just sign this it's about parking
we have no way of knowing that that' s the point of the postcard survey is to get
that feedback and it's not unanimous but it is something that somebody can do at
their own home they don't have to rely on whether somebody else is standing at
the doorway. That's why we don't do that.
Kubby/Well I'm not saying that the decision is made from a petition but that the
triggering of the postcard survey has to come through more than one individual
requesting. I don't know there maybe there are other methods besides a petition
with 10 or 15 signatures on it, I you know so this is a suggestion.
Lehman/Well let me ask you this. If you get a request from me for example I want it for
no parking on my side of Wylde Green Road is your next step then to mail
everybody in that block a postcard.
Ripley/No the next step would be to go out and take a look at it to see if it's reasonable.
Lehman/OK. OK. But I mean I guess what I'm trying to figure out is how far do you get
into the process before you find that I'm the only one on my street that wants to
prohibit parking.
Davidson/Usually the postcard survey.
Lehman/Which is after you drive out and look and then you send a postcard?
Davidson/Yes.
Kubby/(can 't hear).
Lehman/But that's before you go into a lot of extensive work and designing what the
options are whatever?
Davidson/Usually I can usually I can tell what the options are on the phone because there
are very limited options to do. The you know each neighborhood is different. I'm
looking at one where there are four houses that would be affected versus a street
with maybe 60 houses so maybe if you wanted to go that mute in criteria of it has
to be 25 percent or something like that because it's vary each, each
neighborhood' s going to be different.
Kubby/Right.
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Davidson/But the way that I would find out that result is ultimately the postcard survey.
Kubby/So does anybody agree that one person shouldn't be able to trigger that postcard
survey?
Lehman/Even say 10 percent of the people on that block.
Kubby/Right some small amount just (can't hear).
Lehman/Some very small amount but I agree with that so.
Kubby/(can't hear).
Lehman/No I think that's fight cause I mean.
Norton/(can't hear).
(All talking).
Lehman/10 percent of the people in the area affected.
(All talking).
Norton/Percent of the people is that how you do it? Residences, you remember we get
into the multiple family thing and all that. How do you count them? 10 percent
of what? 10 percent of the residences.
Kubby/Number of dwelling units because that' s the postcard, you get one that' s what the
postcard is based on.
(All talking).
Norton/10 percent of the dwelling units.
Kubby/If that's the process we agree on. But they I mean if people agree with the
sentiment that making staff could think of you know how do you work that out
but it's not too complicated.
Davidson/Yea and you know.
Kubby/And the bar isn't too high and it's more than one person.
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Davidson/And we're still going to, we assume you still want us to use our judgment on
this a little bit.
Champion/Right.
Davidson/I mean.
(All talking).
Davidson/If we, if we have the request and we it's obvious to us that there's people in a
big apartment building that are parking on this street all the time we may
determine that at that point that it's not reasonable to do because we know these
people need this parking, on street and it may not get through the reasonable test
in that instance.
Lehman/OK. All right.
O'Donnell/Thank you.
Davidson/OK. Thanks.
Lehman/OK. Well I just heard take 5.
Transit Route Changes (Item #3. PUBLIC HEARING ON PROPOSED ROUTE
CHANGES FOR IOWA CITY TRANSIT.
Joe Fowler/OK we'll try and keep this short.
Lehman/Thank you. We will probably change that.
Fowler/I don't I hope not. We started off we had our charge from the council as to look
at the routes. We drew up, we took in public input, we drew up maps. We had
another public input session, we've had a public hearing. From all this we've
reviewed what we originally presented to you. We think we have some
alternatives to what was proposed originally that hopefully will satisfy the citizen
input that we've had so far and we'll meet the criteria that you had established for
us. I'll kind of break the town up into sections, I'm not going to show you maps
because everybody gets all confused when we do this so we're just going to kind
of keep it general, we get a map up here and we talk for 20 minutes.
Lehman/You got that right.
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Fowler/On the east side which would be the Rochester/Court Hill and Towncrest and the
7th Avenue, the only change that would occur in that area would be the 7th
Avenue would be extended out to First Avenue and come back in. That would be
the only change in that area for service.
Norton/(can't hear) back on First.
Fowler/Out to First, noah on First and then back in I believe it's D, is it D next to
Friendship D? The rest of the routes in that area would be the same.
Norton/Different than you proposed?
Fowler/No.
Lehman/Same as they are.
Fowler/Same as they are fight now.
Norton/Oh boy. OK.
Fowler/We go to the noah side which would basically be the North Dodge and the
Manville routes. We had proposed to attempt to incorporate the NCS tfip into the
current route which means we would continue to do the Caroline/Kimball loop.
What we would propose would be sometime towards the end of the year to give
you a performance report on how that works as to whether or not we can make it.
Vanderhoef/(can't hear) time.
Fowler/Yes. It's difficult to make, we'll see if we can. The change that would occur on
that is fight now that bus comes down to Church Street and turns goes over to
Gilbert and comes down. We would propose it it continue on down to Market and
go over because the shuttle bus goes up into that noah end basically everybody,
the furthest anybody would be is two blocks from the bus.
Vanderhoef/So you can pick up a minute or two there?
Fowler/We would pick up a little bit of time there that would make up for what we're
losing on the other end.
Norton/So your going to do this turnaround route every.
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(END OF REEL 99-64 SIDE 2).
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Transit Route Changes (Item #3) 99-65 S1 (con0.
Fowler/The Manville route we'd leave as is with one change we wouldn't go down
Riverside and up I can't think of the little street by the church.
Norton/Grove.
Fowler/Grove. We would go up to Ferson and come straight across Ferson Street, we're
having conflicts trying to get around the church with church services, the soccer
fields, the band practices, there's a lot of congestion in that area. It would work
better to go.
Norton/Isn't Grove dirt part of the way.
Fowler/Well we're part of it's chip seal but we turn before we get to that part. But we go
down to Ferson and go across so we had a better shot.
Norton/But down Ferson you have to go down and jockey a little bit, that's going to be
tricky on that, cause Grove doesn't go clear thru.
Fowler/On the Southeast side of town which would be Broadway and the mall and
Lakeside routes we took some of these advice that we talked about. Broadway
bus ramp highway to far, so instead of we would leave the outbound lakeside like
it is which was one of the requests we had especially from people in the Bon Aire
area that they could the Lakeside into HyVee and then get the Lakeside back
home. We will leave that outbound during that part the way it is. We would
change the inbound Lakeside so it would go out Hollywood, go through Lakeside,
go to Bon Aire and then when it comes back it would go down Bums which
would be the south side of that subdivision. There's been complaints of buses on
Hollywood this would cut the number of buses by 50 percent there are on
Hollywood. And then that would free up our Broadway bus so that we could take
the Broadway bus in and we'll run it south on Gilbert Street to Southgate and then
we'll turn and go east. And when we do that then we pick up Hilltop and
MECCA and that area down there that we lost when we changed the Lakeside.
So that would be that, the inbound Broadway would take Highland all the way
back down to Gilbert rather than turn up Keokuk to Kirkwood.
Lehman/Can you get down Highland?
Thomberry\ Will you be able to?
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Fowler/At times we have difficulties with parked cars but. The inbound Broadway
would take Highland from Sycamore all the way to Gilbert and then go north into
town on Gilbert and that is rather than going up Keokuk to Kirkwood to Dodge.
Norton/There' s already a bus on Kirkwood so far isn't there?
(all talking).
O'Donnell/(Can't hear). A democrat.
Fowler/We're not done yet, we're not done yet.
Norton/(can't hear). So far so good.
Fowler/The Westwinds bus we would propose that we continue to go ahead with the
route that we presented to you. It covers the same areas that the current bus does,
the advantage is we go straight up Melrose and we go into Pheasant Ridge and
then when we come back onto Mormon Trek we're able to make a right hand turn
onto Mormon Trek towards Benton. The way the route runs right now they have
to make a left hand turn and cross four lanes of traffic right over the crest of the
hill and we think this is a lot safer option, it would go up Benton, go through the
Denbigh neighborhood, back across Westgate Street by the apartments and then
back into town. What we would cut out would be the Emerald Street, we we're
going across Emerald Street coming back Westgate, we'll just, those are basically
interconnected we tried that as an experiment we didn't see that it made a big
difference so as long as the parking lots are interconnected figured people could
walk over. The night Westwinds we would like to continue with the proposed
route what the current route does is it goes out, it swings through Denbigh, it goes
down Benton Street then it takes Mormon Trek all the way out to basically the
Deli Mart and McDonalds and then it swings down through those neighborhoods,
turns around and comes all the way back to Pheasant Ridge. Rather than make
that loop we would like to go through the Denbigh neighborhood and then take
Sunset Street to the highway, the highway up to McDonalds and Deli Mart and
then start through the neighborhood that way which would save, we would miss a
couple blocks of Benton Street but we would save the time of coming down
Benton driving all the way out Mormon Trek turn around and driving all the way
back in Mormon Trek. Those are the changes in the current routes that we would
propose, another thing that we would like to propose would be that we sent you a
memo probably at the next meeting that would outline changes and arrivals and
departures to the interchange downtown. By this right now some of our buses get
downtown at 8:00 and leave downtown at 5:00 which makes it very difficult as a
way to commute to work because your late to work and you have to leave early or
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your there a half hour early and your there a half hour late. So if we would adjust
this time so that we get downtown 5 to 10 till give a person time to get to work
and then we wait till 5 or 10 after to leave. We think that would increase
ridership. What will happen is there will be a period of time and this is where we
need to work out where the bus will be idle. And it could be 10 to 15 minutes and
it will be idle downtown but we think that the advantages to the riders pays off for
that time that that time isn't going to be on the streets.
Norton/You mean that's a shift from one mode to (can't hear).
Fowler/Right, from the morning route to the aftemoon route. Now whether we do this at
the time the drivers change or exactly when that's what we still need to work out
but we'd like to have a little bit of time to just send you a memo informing you of
what routes will be changed and what times. We can't do all of them, there's you
know there's just a couple of them that we just can't change because it's not going
to work. But we can come close.
Kubby/One of the concerns that we've heard about the night route, the Broadway
Lakeside that area southeast area of town night route taking longer when people
get off the bus having to walk further at night.
Fowler/We're not proposing changing any of the night stuff.
Kubby/So I think that's and from the top of my head without looking at my notes right
now that seems to be one of the biggest concerns that hasn't been addressed.
Lehman/Right.
Fowler/No, because we're not changing it.
Kubby/Oh, keeping the routes as it not as proposed.
Fowler/Right, no not as proposed. The only changes would be the ones that we
verbalized over what's currently out there.
Kubby/OK.
Vanderhoef/OK.
Norton/Are you going to write up a new one of this or this, after you've done?
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Fowler/Well let me give you one more one more here and you can you can tell us if you
want us to go ahead and proceed with this. We've had two requests for buses on
the west side which is an expansion of service. One is service during peak hours
through the residential areas along Rohret Road and the other one is for West
High Student tipper bus. We would propose that we do the West High tripper bus
so to do that we're going to have to cut service in another area of the system to be
able to do it. Our proposal would be to start Saturday service at 7:00 AM as
opposed to 6:00 AM. And then those five hours of service that we would save on
Saturday moming would take care of getting the kids to school. And then the
afternoon the first bus that would do the mall afternoon trip would be diverted and
do the West High trip to take the kids home. Then these half hour service on the
mall route would be delayed from 3:00 to 4:00 after 4:00 it would go to half hour
service as opposed to half hour service at 4:00. We think those two would those
two would more than compensate for what we're going to be adding. The
disadvantage and as our advantage from 6 to 7 in the morning there are 31 people
that ride the five buses in that one hour and I just want to point that out to you that
there are people that are going to be affected and you might hear from those
people. We think the gains in ridership on the west side if your going to just
count numbers we'll far out number what we lose.
Vanderhoef/So the people who the 31 are those consistently going to work people do you
happen to know that?
Fowler/I don't know it but if I had to guess I would say that's whose tiding the bus at
6:00 on Saturday morning yea.
Lehman/(can't hear).
Norton/They're going to work at the hospital that's going to be. What did you say about
the Westwinds what about Rohret Road.
Fowler/No.
Norton/Will those two changes will they let you do what you want to on the west side?
Fowler/Those two changes will let us be able to do the West High student ttip bus.
Norton/What about the Rohret Road route?
Fowler/No we are not able to do that without making more reductions.
Norton/Well there getting something though in a way of that?
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Fowler/Yes.
Norton/Just not getting everything they wanted.
Kubby/(can't hear).
Fowler/I think they're getting what they from what the input that I think Ron and I have
heard is their getting what they want the most is a way to get their kids to and
from school.
Champion/I think the idea of switching the times is great and I think it will pick up
ridership and consistently we can talk about doing something else. But I think
that's a fabulous idea for people going to work.
Lehman/Your doing Rohret Road twice a day.
Fowler/Yes.
Lehman/OK so your doing West High and Rohret twice a day morning and afternoon
rush.
Fowler/We don't have the set schedule for Rohret Road we'll go I believe school starts at
8:10 we'll verify the times and we'll work backwards on that to get that rome set
and then after school we'll start that bus will leave probably 10 to 15 minutes after
school's dismissed to give students time to gather up their books and get to the
bus.
Norton/Somebody that lives on Rohret Road tiding not interested in school do they have
any can they jump on that school bus (can't hear).
Fowler/Yes, anybody can tide that bus, it's not a school bus, it's a tripper bus that' s
going to go to school and anybody can ride it they can get a transfer from that bus.
Norton/I wanted to know if they can transfer (can't hear).
Fowler/Right they can transfer from that bus to get on another bus.
Kubby/Can we do some survey of the Saturday morning folks to see?
Norton/Find out.
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Kubby/What they're doing what they're alternatives might be, there might be something
we could refer them to if some of them can use another system or.
Norton/I think we should.
Kubby/Just to know what it is not to say that I that would make or break my decision but
I think it would be helpful for us to know are there other ways to accommodate
these individuals what are we doing with them. And how, like tomorrow night we
have a public heating we'll be having people come in probably it would be good
to present some.
Lehman/Joe will present what he did tonight before the public heating so it would
eliminate a lot of the complaints that we had heard and answer a lot of the
questions that came up at the last public meeting.
Fowler/Right.
Norton/Does this mean there's no deviated fixed route?
Fowler/No deviated fixed route. I think it's a wonderful idea but I don't anybody
understands it half the time I just. I'll be talking about it and sometimes I think
people are confused with it so.
Norton/So these Saturday morning people we may find that there' s a really heavy need
there my prediction.
Fowler/I I.
Norton/That's (can't hear).
Fowler/I've got the numbers here with me I think Lakeside Lakeside has a high Saturday
morning.
Kubby/(can't hear) and there's not affordability and people have problems with their
jobs that I mean there are affects on our tax base on that back end of that as well.
Vanderhoef/I guess what I would like to know is how many of those riders might fall
into a category would fit the welfare and workers program.
Norton/Other options.
Kubby/Right that's my point.
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Vanderhoef/That might tie in with some additional dollars from that end towards transit
specifically if those people qualify.
Fowler/Yea, there's a 5:45 Lakeside an average of just a little bit over 5. Then the 6:45
Lakeside which would be the first run that we'd run under this scenario which
averages 6.7 no excuse me we wouldn't run that one. It'd be 16.4 at 7:15 so
there'd be about 12 people at Lakeside on the Lakeside route that would be
affected and that's the most affected route. The Manville average is 1, Court Hill
2, Westwinds 4, Rochester 3, Broadway 3, North Dodge less than 1 just about 1,
Towncrest 4, and Oakcrest less than 1. So the Lakeside bus is the bus that is
needed and maybe you know we probably could squeeze enough hours out of it if
you want we could run that one bus.
Vanderhoef/Why don't you just sort of survey and see what and see what' s out there and
then let's talk about it.
Norton/But I'm just sure if talking to SEATS people and so forth your going to run into a
foster of people who are (can't hear).
Fowler/You need to remember if we cut our hours back and we don't run SEATS won't
run.
Norton/Oh that' s true.
Fowler/Cause they'll run our hours.
Lehman/That's fight.
Fowler/So that transportation.
Kubby/That complicates even harder.
Fowler/Right that transportation won't be available.
Norton/Shop call around.
Fowler/But we could.
Norton/Well we could change that of course.
Lehman/OK Joe tomorrow night.
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Champion/One bus at 6:00 in the morning then would SEATS run at 6:00 in the
moming.
Fowler/Yes.
Lehman/Tomorrow night at the public heating I think that you should make yourself
available because there's going to be a lot of specific questions that I think we
need to answer at the time they come up. You know I'm from Manville Heights
and I want blah blah blah. And you can say sir we don't your not affected or I'm
from wherever. I do think we need to answer those questions as they come up so
that we don't have.
Norton/There' s an awful lot of (can't hear).
Lehman/Yes, or people going on for a long long time that's on something that isn't
going to affect them.
Fowler/We could start off tomorrow with a summary like we just went through.
Lehman/Right. Right.
Champion/I agree.
Fowler/And then be available for questions at~er that.
Norton/And make sure that they understand look at these they may solve a lot of your
problems so listen carefully.
Lehman/No no I think that's tight. I think that's tight.
Kubby/And what kind of notification would we want on the buses cause I we'll have to
continue the public hearing until we get the memo on that we need to let people
ledlOW.
Champion/Well people I think they have to know what we're going to approve (can't
hear).
Lehman/Well I think what.
(All talking).
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Kubby/Is that part of that notification?
Vanderhoef/We'll have to continue the public heating to two weeks from tomorrow.
Fowler/We might fall under the category now where we don't need a public hearing
because you only need a public heating if you change 25 percent of your routes.
Lehman/Oh really.
Fowler/So we might miss the federal guidelines but we might miss the spirit of Iowa
City by not having one.
Kubby/Thank you very much, thank you that was well said (can't hear). Can I quote
you?
Fowler/Yes, go fight ahead.
Norton/(can't hear).
Lehman/Thank you Secretary of Transportation.
Vanderhoef/Just one question. The few loops you took off what do you estimate the
longest change in walk might be to get to their nearest bus? Is there anything
dramatic that you see.
Fowler/No, the Seventh Avenue is going to be rerouted a little bit and there will be some
people that the bus went in front of their house and they'll have to walk one to
two blocks to get to a bus. Church Street people they had the bus going down
Church will have about to blocks either to get over to Dodge Street or to get over
to the shuttle. There might be a difference in the time that there bus is available.
But it wouldn't really be a difference in the amount of service.
Vanderhoef/A couple of blocks.
Fowler/The night the night on Benton Street what's going to be missed on Benton Street
at night from Westgate Street to Mormon Trek but a lot of that is I mean 50
percent ofthat's park land and those people would be probably two blocks either
way.
Vanderhoef/To Mormon Trek.
Fowler/To Mormon Trek or Westgate Street.
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Vanderhoef/OK.
Thomberry/Joe on those people that we just mentioned do you know of any of them that
are in wheel chairs?
Fowler/No I don't. I haven't talked to them but I've been told by drivers that there were
some elderly people on the Noah Dodge on Church Street that we're concerned
about being able to get up to the grocery store and back again, the bus didn't go
right down Gilbert Street.
Lehman/Well.
Norton/What about Forestview?
Fowler/That stays.
Norton/(can't hear).
Fowler/Yep, yep.
Norton/Great job.
Lehman/All right Joe thank you very much. OK let's get sprinkled here.
Downtown Sprinkler System (1P4 of 6/11 pkt)
Doug Boothroy/Are we going onto the next item then? Andy why don't you try. He has
a badge and I don't I thought maybe it might work better.
Thornberry/It works.
Kubby/That's one point.
Boothroy/And then RJ. Well what can I say? We're interested in developing a program
that looks at the downtown in terms of fire safety and the reason that we come to
you at this time in part is the devastation that occurred as a result of the Mondo's
fire cause I think it's pretty obvious that in some of these older structures
particularly with certain types of occupancies where there 's a higher fire risk for
fire hazard like a restaurant. If a fire gets loose it can take a building in a
relatively short period of time and it not only damages the existing building but
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has impact even on the downtown other businesses that are struggling to
reestablish themselves. Another thing of course we are very fortunate about with
Mondo's fire is that nobody was hurt even though a lot of property was lost all the
residents above the building got out. Downtown is as you know a lot of buildings
down there are very old and there construction techniques and stuff like that make
them a higher risk of fire also the fact that the buildings are abutting each other
makes it difficult sometimes to control fire from getting to other businesses or
property owners in the immediate area as you saw with the Mondo fire. We need
to look at the downtown and we believe we need to look at the downtown and
systematically take a look at these buildings and work with property owners to
find out how best to protect the buildings and also how best to protect the
residents within those buildings. But we before we go any farther with our
proposal we wanted to find out from the council whether there' s any interest in
doing this because if we start systematically you know contacting property owners
their obviously going to be back in touch with you. We would if you gave us the
green light to go forward tonight we would come back to you with a very specific
proposal of how we would like to bring this about. Any program that we would
develop we would propose to collaborate very with property owners to make these
improvements something that they can budget as much as possible so that it's
quite conceivable that if there was a situation where the sprinkling system was
going to be very expensive it may take or we may work with the property owner
to phase it in or to how it accomplished over a three or four year period of time.
But it' s important to get started because this is a very staff intensive effort to look
at these buildings they would be looked at in a way that they've never been
viewed before as thoroughly as we possibly can and in working with property
owners give them the opportunity to phase this in it's going to take some time as
well so this is going to be a project that would take several years to accomplish so
it's not something that would happen overnight and we don't in any way intend to
make this any more hardship than we absolutely feel it's you know be willing the
fact that it is going to be somewhat of a hardship in terms of what it's going to
cost.
Champion/What is the cost out there?
Boothroy/Well it's going to vary, it's going to vary depending on what needs to be done.
One of the things that we would do in our proposal is come back with some
criteria in terms of what kinds of structures we feel that we would like to see
sprinkled based on the hazards. I don't see that every building downtown would
have to be sprinkled but there are a number of buildings that are not presently
sprinkled that probably would have to be.
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Champion/The problem your saying some should and some shouldn't. Is that you don't
know what that buildings going to do to you in the future so I would hope that
you would think that we would adopt this ordinance that you obviously look at it.
But I somehow be tied to the building permit so it's the building has changed. I
mean I think you've got a good idea I do have a sprinkler system in the basement
of my building but the other thing I've often wondered is when the fire
department comes around to do their yearly inspection why nobody ever inspects
those sprinkler systems. I don't even know if their even functioning. I mean
there ought to be some requirement for maintenance is what I'm saying. And I
know my building is getting a new sprinkler system so I'm not worrying about me
it's getting a whole new sprinkler system. I'm just curious what the cost was but I
think it's a good idea. I don't know how to do it. Like that building that I'm in
those are all kind of roof framed buildings from the ground up and they're
attached to each other so if one goes.
RoccaJ
To address your earlier question about whether we do or don't look at those
systems we do. We're limited somewhat by against the depth that we can look at
them. We look at the connection to make sure it's accessible particular looking at
other documentation from a sprinkler system company that would come in and
done some yearly maintenance things of that nature so we don't flow water
through them but we do look at the components and make sure their available and
accessible.
????man/Each sprinkler system does have a gage to see that there is pressure to that
sprinkler system.
Rocca/Depending on the type that is correct they can be a wet system, they can be a dry
system variations.
Thomberry/Let me ask you this. On a sprinkler system the purpose of a sprinkler system
as I understand it is not to put out a fire is to control a fire until you people can get
out of a building or whatever.
RoccaJ In many cases it will put out the fire but at a minimum it's designed to hold the
fire in check until the fire department can come overall and look for the hidden
spot fires, ambers, and ultimately extinguish the fire.
Thomberry/Now are all businesses and apartments downtown required to have smoke
alarms?
Rocca/Not all businesses but any residential occupancy and sleeping at a minimum
should have smoke detectors and then if it's multiple units, what is it more than
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16 bed requiting a central alarm system. So it depends on the number of units but
yes residential occupancies would have smoke detectors.
Thornberry/I would be in favor of smoke alarms before I would mandate that every
business or I don't know what businesses you would want to have sprinklers in
some not or when you say downtown businesses if you mandate that this business
have sprinkler system and the one next to it doesn't have to have with a common
wall it.
Norton/Like those (can't hear).
Thomberry/You know it's it's.
Rocca/Early waming and notification are part of it with sprinkler systems but again if
you keep in mind the type of construction, the age of the building, the
arrangement, somewhat inaccessible, ped mall, things of that nature, you know
built in fire protection and sprinkler system really does afford the occupants more
time to safely exit the building.
Lehman/I think there's one way though and I agree that we need to if we do this sort of
thing it needs to have some uniformity of enforcement but Doug and I talked
earlier today. I guess my personal feeling is that anybody downtown that has
apartments, has dwelling units where people actually live and sleep. I have no
problem with inspecting those because a commercial building where we're doing
business every day, we get a fire and there's a chance for people to get out and
there' s nobody there at night in my building. I think there' s no there' s nobody
there in a lot of buildings at night. But people who sleep there people who have
apartments above buildings downtown those folks concern me. I guess I wouldn't
have a problem in.
Norton/Well if we require those out of the community I mean do you think it would be
sensible?
Lehman/Well I think these are grandfathered in where.
Rocca/The rationale is good, however, if you have a commercial building next to a
residential building and the fire starts in the commercial building and
communicates through a breach fire wall an opening, a utility chase something
like that you still have some risks there.
Norton/Is there any differences between the type of business? I mean.
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Rocca/Well yea, we want to look at.
Norton/That fires and ovens and stoves and stuff and other business might have clothing
or something and it might be a difference.
RoccaJ I think what we'd like to do as Doug mentioned earlier is bring forth this idea
based on history. We can look at the every 10 or 15 year event and the major
consequences that you know it takes a period of years to rebuild, reestablish
businesses. But I think what we want to do is get direction from you tonight and
whether the initiative has met and then establish criteria and come back with an
amendment, a proposed amendment, that's where what we hope to accomplish
tonight.
Champion/Do you have any idea of what percentage of buildings downtown have a
sprinkler system?
Rocca/We did a preliminary review of the 100 approximately 158 buildings in that
general geographic area. I believe it's about 117 of them do not have sprinkler
systems so about 75 percent of them do not. And the others either are fully
sprinkled or partially sprinkled and that really didn't take into account any
different occupancies whether it's residential, commercial, basically the hard fast
numbers.
Norton/Do they get serious help insurance wise?
Rocca/Oh as we've discussed in the years gone by maybe 5 percent or maybe 10 percent.
The payback is not real good there.
Norton/Ought to get a better break.
Champion/Because they can't guarantee that the sprinkler system works that's why the
insurance companies don't give you a big break.
Kubby/Well I'd be interested in doing this. I'd like to think about a not just a two or
three year phase in period but more like a 10 year 12 year I mean I think it has to
be longer term and I'd be interested or just having some feedback about what you
think an appropriate time would be. But I think 2 years or something short like
that's way to short. I'd be interested in trying to get a maybe a downtown local
financial institution maybe help.
Lehman/Low interest loans.
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Kubby/Yea or revolving loan fund because it's something at stake to downtown and I
think that would be a good thing for them to hop into. I like the idea of the smoke
detectors in the commercial buildings downtown as well as as well as the
sprinkler systems so I like (can't hear).
Thornberry/Your insurance is a lot of the insurance costs are based on the type of
business that it is. So your already paying pretty high and then if you have a
spfinkler system or a lot of times they require it too to even to rent you or give
you insurance. They'll say you've got to have insurance or their not even
interested in giving you insurance so it's already built in.
Norton/Spfinkler then.
Thornberry/On the spfinkler yea. It's already kind of built in that way but boy this would
be a it's their very expensive.
Norton/I was going to say.
Thornberry/Very very expensive and putting it in old buildings.
Lehman/Would cost even more.
Thornberry/Would cost even more than putting it in building a new building. I would
like to see some figures on what the cost of that and the low incomes loans but
still you know tight now it's tough doing business in downtown Iowa City fight
now and they just don't have a lot of free bucks floating around to do this sort of
thing and I really don't want to put a constraint on the trade value tight now.
Rocca/
No and what we want to focus on really is the history there from 10 or 15 year
devastating fire we don't really want to get into the regulation aspect of it
recognizing that's what we're proposing in the amendment. But we want to look
at this and have your blessing on it's own merit. That it's a good thing, it's a
proactive measure to take and to preserve downtown Iowa City and those
buildings and residents.
Thornberry/I don't know if requiring it is. You know I can see requiting smoke alarms,
smoke detectors and whatever it may be that connected to the fire department or
whatever it need to be a smoke detector.
Vanderhoef/That's a good start.
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Thornberry/Good start. And if they were to remodel say 50 percent of their business or
something like that that that time it be required to put it in or something like that
but be.
Boothroy/The other important thing we can do with this is look at an educational
program because I think that we find is that over time even if we don't get back
into some of the commercial occupancies is that people will cut holes and do
things they don't understand that that jeopardizes you know the building. And it's
innocently done and but in the buildings that we looked at like in the we know
about the Mondo's building had lots of faults in it. The Iowa State building which
was also if that's the you know the building I'm talking about, the old building. It
was, there was lots of fault ceilings and faults walls and stuff like that and we're
recognizing quality of that building to determine structural integrity that my god if
a fire started here it would take the building very quickly so.
Thornberry/But again would people be in there ovemight?
Boothroy/That building's it probably doesn't have any residential so that would be
different I'm just saying that that' s characteristic I think of some of the things that
go on over the years. These buildings have been remodeled so many times that
there ceilings that people didn't know that there was a ceiling even above that
ceiling you know.
Lehman/Doug I think it's very important cause you know we're talking about sprinklers
but what Doug's talking about is far more than sprinklers. He's talking about
inspecting buildings for fire hazards and the sprinkler part of that inspection
although it might be very expensive is only going to be a part of the total cost so if
they find you know a building is lacks integrity because of holes coveting the wall
or whatever. These inspections will require that those buildings be brought up to
code so it's more than just in sprinklers.
Norton/Well what do we do now in way of inspection downtown what is it or is it the
custom? I mean you do a lot of inspection of different kinds of property under
what circumstance do you do with downtown now I'm not quite sure what we're.
Boothroy/The residential is presently done by HIS but we do not go into commercial
because all we're doing is rental housing.
Norton/So your residential thing you mean just go into that part of it or you go below it.
Boothroy/Right. We do not go into the commercial portion of it because that's not the
purpose of the housing code the housing code is only to deal with residential. We
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do go into in the Mondo's case because there was some discussion about
sprinkling. The fact that the inspector went down there because the central
heating component or whatever was done there he happened to be in that area and
observed a problem and brought that to the attention of the property owner. But
we don't get in all we don't have reason to go in all commercial areas and I think
over the years Andy can speak for this but I don't believe that the fire inspections
have been a thorough structural analysis of the commercial areas it's been less
than that.
Rocca/Their company based inspections are an engine company personnel, the area
ladder company personnel, their performing these inspections their general fire
safety. Their looking to see that your exit signs are lit, your not accessibly using
extension cords, alarm systems are functioning, general fire safety items. It's a
quick walk through, what we're talking here a much more detailed more specific
inspection that would encompass sprinkler systems, fire alarms, reaches??? in fire
walls, things of that nature.
Norton/But let's suppose what kind of referral are we trying to authorize that if you start
are you trying to decide whether you need to do that or are you trying to get
authorization to do at least the inspection by apart from any regulation about
equipment?
Boothroy/Well we would like to move in a direction of a systematic inspection of
property some of these you know we'll have to work out but their the sprinkling
issue cause we'll have to bring that back to the council but when we started the
system if we started a systematic inspection process contacting all the property
owners we would like to have your support on that because there will be some
resistance about that and that's really where we're coming from. But we're
already going into the rental portion, we have not had that kind of detailed
inspection in the commercial section and that really is the expansion of the if you
want the service levels of the downtown area.
Norton/Let's suppose we authorize or moved in the direction of authorizing or whatever
we have to do authorized inspection whether it by you or by Andy or the two of
you what are we talking about in terms of cost of that process?
Boothroy/Well we're not asking for any additional staff so this would be. I don't know
what you mean by cost.
Norton/It must cost something for somebody to go and spend their time doing the
detailed analysis.
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Boothroy/Exactly we're proposing this to work that in with our existing work schedule
so it will take some time to get through these buildings in other words we will not
get be able to get through them in a month for example or two months, because
we have other things and other priorities.
Norton/That just doesn't seem to be realistic does it on the face of it it just doesn't seem
like you could do it with the same horses you've got.
Boothroy/Well it's going to. I would say it would take I don't know when we come back
with our program what we're going to do I think that will determine how
thoroughly some inspections are going to be but if they are as thorough as we had
initially envisioned a large block could take a year just to do the inspections
simply because of the time element.
Thornberry/Well your talking about an expanded fire inspection then.
Boothroy/For the commercial portion of it.
Thornberry/I was getting inspected annually by the fire department making sure like they
said the fire exits worked and you weren't blocking the fire exits which I got
caught on a lot but.
Vanderhoef/Me too.
Thornberry/But no extension cords and stuff like that. Their already walking around
your looking at looking behind walls and things or above ceilings or?
Rocca/Potentially that' s correct I mean looking at the structural components removing
ceiling panels, roof structure components with (can't hear).
Boothroy/Anything but you have a suspended ceiling we would look.
Thomberry/Right just kind of lift up and look inside look up above and see what you see
up above (can't hear).
Rocca/But keep in mind the people that are currently doing the commercial inspection
are also doing your response, your EMS, your fire so they don't have really the
time to start dissembling things and looking in those crevices and cracks and
breaches and what.
Thomberry/Your thinking it may be it's going to take another what 25 percent longer to
do on an average on a retail space or?
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Boothroy/Well I think that I would say that in some situations it might take an afternoon
or a good portion of an afternoon to do a commercial a thorough commercial
inspection basement and the commercial area.
Thornberry/Depending on the place.
Boothroy/It depends on the place you know some places are in better condition than
others but if I'm talking about maybe a worse case scenario it might take that
long.
Thomberry/But at best case scenario and a fairly new Burger King for example it would
take another five minutes.
Boothroy/It would, we might be in and out of there in a half hour.
Lehman/But your talking old buildings basically.
Boothroy/Basically these really old buildings that haven't had that kind of analysis.
We're looking at a sort of a full physical for those in terms of fire safety and.
Thornberry/Well I don't see I don't have any problem with any of that.
Lehman/Well.
Vanderhoef/If you've had a series.
Thomberry/It could take longer.
O'Donnell/But it could cost the building owner mega dollars.
Boothroy/Well either way it's going to, if a fire were to break loose I think that' s the
hazard.
Vanderhoef/So if you do an inspection without any blessing on on getting corrected
action at this point. But if you had an inventory inspection ofwhat's down there
we'd have a better idea of what we're looking at for these buildings.
Boothroy/Yea.
Rocca/That's correct but it's pretty labor intensive to go through without the
understanding that your going to proceed to work towards compliance.
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O'Donnell/That's fight.
Lehman/Oh I thought that.
Norton/But all you have to have is this suppose we take building XYZ randomly right
and say I'm going to find out what it takes to do to kind of inspection you have in
mind. And put that in ours or relate that to your staff because I can not believe
that it's not going to cost some money and I I think it's an important function and
probably we're going to have to get there but we surely didn't know we...I need
to know what it's going to cost.
Boothroy/But.
Norton/What the cost (can't hear).
Boothroy/We'll put that in our proposal I don't have any problem that I.
Norton/(can't hear) Three buildings on a practice basis is that there's some pretty bad
(can't hear) your going to be going through.
Vanderhoef/OK but would you not be considering that you would be charging for the
inspection?
Boothroy/We had not considered that but again it's preliminary if that's something that
you would like to have us look at we can. I think what Dee is mentioning here is
certainly you need to know what kind of staff investment we're going to have and
we'll let you know what that is. We'll come back with that information, we'll
come back with what it is that we're going to be, our criteria in terms of what
we'll trigger certain types of fire safety and a time, some kind of a time flame for
you in terms of what we're looking at. And it probably but if your interested we
need the time that's what we're here to find out from you. Are you interested in
us putting together a proposal which will address these issue? If so we'll go back
to put it together come back to you with something much more detailed and then
you'll have something to chew on and decide whether you like it or not.
Lehman/I think Karen had a pretty good point. The cost of a, for example, the sprinkler
system my building alone 20 years ago cost me $35,000 just to for the changes the
modifications that were made in the remodeling but would probably cost $60 or
$75,000 to do the whole building if it weren't done. Boy you need 10 years. I
mean I wouldn't invest that kind of money in my property unless I had a 10 year
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lease and I think there' s a lot of businesses unless they have the amount of time to
pay for something like that can't afford to do it.
Norton/I totally agree but I just think for a starter if they take even a couple of buildings
and get somebody to said to agree that their willing to be a guinea pig for them to
go in and see what it's going to take to do the job we're talking, fight. And then
come back with a proposal about how much staff, and how much time and maybe
how you would fill this out this inspection process let alone the directive action
but I just think we need to see the financing I think it's probably responsible we
need to do something.
Thornberry/Well it's not just that, it's not just the inspection, it's if they find something.
Norton/Oh yea.
Thornberry/And if they find something wrong their going to want to see that problem
corrected not just here' s your thing now, the people downtown may not own the
building and it's up to the building owner to correct it. And their just the people
in it whomever it may be, it shouldn't be their responsibility to fix it because their
just renting the building. It's the building owner now.
Norton/I've just trying to get few facts in mind.
(All talking).
Vanderhoef/But the building owner is going to put it on renter.
Thornberry/And the building owner yea, whose going to pay to have.
Norton/Lets not decide that now. Let' s just get two buildings inspected get the facts.
O'Donnell/This could conceivably lead to condemn buildings now.
Lehman/Well I guess I'm not sure.
Boothroy/I don't believe it would do that but I.
Lehman/I think this is going to be a surpfise. I think it's an admirable effort but.
Kubby/That' s a health and safety issue and a lot of people in and out of that building
every day.
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O'Donnell/Oh I'm not saying pro or con I'm saying that.
Norton/Let's saying do something to get a handle get a little further down the line on it I
think.
Lehman/But I personally I would support inspecting first buildings that have dwellings
in them. To me that' s a much higher priority than inspecting a commercial
building that has no one living there. We have a fire.
Thornberry/Already inspect living quarters don't they?
Lehman/No, no they don't inspect the basements and first floors. Basement and first
floor are commercial, they receive no inspection what so ever.
Rocca/No that's incorrect the fire department does the commercial aspect.
Lehman/But that's so cursory that you come in and you tell me I've got extension cord,
I've got (can't hear).
Rocca/It's general fire safety that's correct.
Lehman/Yea but you don't go through what Doug's talking about, the kind of things like
the false ceilings.
Boothroy/The structural look.
Lehman/The structural things that many of the problems for you guys in the fire you
don't look for, that's what he's talking about looking for.
Kubby/What if we do a pilot thing to have two or three buildings it should be a variety of
kinds of buildings.
Norton/Exactly do one of the each type. Take one of several types, take one for this
experiment we'll try to find a. What is it Bob, how much more than what's
normally done, how much more than what Andy normally does?
Boothroy/Do we have any volunteers?
Champion/You can inspect my building it's going to be all rejuvenated gotta get there
before July 4.
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Boothroy/Well what I hear you saying is that your interested in us pursuing it and if
possible if we can come up with some people to do some kind of a cost analysis in
terms of time and maybe even you know what it's going to involve in terms of
retrofitting a building. We can come back with something like that.
Thornberry/What would it cost the building owner for.
Boothroy/That' s what I meant.
Thornberry/(can't hear).
Lehman/All right.
Boothroy/But if we find anybody that's willing to go through that that'll be but we might
be able to.
O'Donnell/What do we do after that point?
Lehman/Well I think we tell them yes or no. If they come back with three pilot buildings
or two or whatever and this is the proposal we say yea it's a go or no it's not a go.
Norton/And in the process they'll get some feedback from the people involved how this
would work out.
Lehman/But see I got a problem with doing the entire downtown. I don't have a
problem with doing residential but I.
O'Donnell/If there' s a building next to yours with apartments up above if we make that
building clean and yours catches fire and falls onto then we've done nothing.
Lehman/But the sprinklers in there would definitely be an advantage for them.
O'Donnell/Yea (can't hear) fire wall.
Lehman/But if they got sprinklers it better go off, they
Thornberry/No your building's on fire not mine.
Norton/Well there also maybe other, this may be going on other places there might be
some data, I don't know whether Des Moines or who does it? Somebody must do
it.
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Boothroy/Data on what?
Norton/Somebody must (can't hear).
Boothroy/Well we can get you. There are cost figures in terms of been selected.
Norton/Them others as to how much their figuring on this type of inspection in a town
like I don't know Dubuque, I don't know who does it.
Lehman/Are there other cities in Iowa that do this?
Boothroy/Do what?
Lehman/Make inspections of older buildings of older buildings for the types of
violations that your looking for?
Boothroy/We'll have to check, I don't know how thorough some of those inspections are
to be honest with you without actually calling around.
Norton/Get on the Internet.
Rocca/Somebody mentioned to me today one of my staff that they thought Cedar Rapids
was doing something like this in their central business district and I can check and
find out.
Lehman/Oh that would be great information to have.
Boothroy/I don't.
Lehman/What it's costing them as far as the cost of doing it, what it's costing the
property owners to bring them up to code.
Norton/And who does the inspection, who gets charges and so on?
Thornberry/And what' s their code?
Norton/(can't hear).
Thornberry/Do you have to (can't hear).
Norton/They ask us enough questions let's ask.
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Kubby/Are there four people to proceed pursuing all that?
Lehman/I think preliminarily we proceed.
Boothroy/OK.
Champion/But very preliminary.
O'Donnell/Absolutely.
Rocca/Thank you for your consideration.
Vanderhoef/Keep us posted as you go along. When the red flag goes up why call us.
Boothroy/I'm riding in his truck. Yes they want me here for two items.
Lehman/OK County inspections.
County Building Code Enforcement (1P5 of 6/11 pkt)
Boothroy/Well the letter was attached to that there's a the county's been going through a
process by which they've a adopted a or their going to consider adopting a the
uniform building code which is the same code that the city uses. And one of the
ways that they've looked at possibly getting a County Building Code
Enforcement program going is contracting with the City of Iowa City with the
assumption being that they would pick up the entire cost. And I laid out in the
memorandum why I think that there is some definite advantages to the City and to
the County for doing this. Before we go any farther we need to find out if
Council would entertain the development of a contract if the Supervisor' s are
interested would you be willing to consider this as something to do.
Lehman/Absolutely.
Kubby/Right.
Vanderhoef/What' s our liability in providing service outside of our?
Dilkes/Oh I think you would include a pretty extensive indemnification provision in your
agreement so they would take on any liability.
Vanderhoef/OK.
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Thornberry/They would they would have a how long period of time contract period?
CHANGE TAPE TO REEL 99-65 SIDE 2
Boothroy/Three years, I think that's marginal I think that I would prefer five but three
would be the minimum.
Thornberry/Because if we hire what was it going to take two people?
Boothroy/We estimated two additional inspectors.
Thornberry/All right it wouldn't be really fair for the County to say OK I want all of
these inspected and then after three years we're not going to it anymore. What do
you do with those two guys?
Norton/That's what I'm saying.
Boothroy/Yea, well they would they would obviously get laid off in that situation
because they would be paid by the County and the source of revenue would be
gone if they dropped the program so I would push for in our contract negotiation
five years but you know I also recognize that we probably could get by in three.
If your if you prefer and your more comfortable with that tell me now and that' s
what we'll do.
Norton/Well maybe they ought to make, maybe just hire temporary inspectors is what
you do. I we've done that in other areas of the city.
Boothroy/Oh and Rick Dvorak's here from the County if you want to ask him a question
about things.
Lehman/I don't think temporary inspectors would work at all.
Boothroy/No these have to be, these really have to be trained inspectors.
Lehman/You really need experienced people.
Vanderhoef/Oh.
Norton/Yea but we've done, we've had places where we've hired people who were
manifestly, we've had engineers for example who were going to be on for a
temporary period.
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Vanderhoef/Independent contractors.
Norton/Yes. And if we do the inspections who issues citations? Who does the follow-up
enforcement?
Boothroy/Well we would be, we would be involved in the follow-up enforcement simply
because we are the people on the site seeing the situation. If you go to court
your going to have to have the inspector who is who is view the situation to
testify. Now there's no way to get around that I don't think.
Thomberry/What is it the County wants?
Rick Dvorak/Something for nothing.
Boothroy/No don't say that.
Dvorak/No, I'm just kidding. One of the options that we're looking at that we've talked
about. One thing we talked initially about was possibility having the two
employees be County employees and then you folks through his office, this is,
we've talked about it. And we have nothing a contract written I think we've got a
draft. But generally the two employees would be county employees and they
would be under the direction of the City. That would eliminate the possibility of
(can't hear) five years and hiring new employees, I mean that would be a logical.
As far as liability goes I think that's already been discussed you know it would be
in the contract the liability.
Thornberry/Enforcement for the city.
Dvorak/My understanding the enforcement would be the county' s enforcement of the
city's code I think that's some of the language we've talked about. Again we
haven't fine haven't fine tuned anything. We didn't want to go to the time and
waste your time and Doug's time and Tim's time with coming up with a total on
our contract and you folks no we're not interested.
Kubby/I'm really interested I want to make sure all the indirect and direct costs.
Lehman/Absolutely.
Kubby/You know there's some administrative costs cause we would be supervising them
so a percentage of Doug's time or our senior inspector and electricity just as long
as all of that is all in there.
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Lehman/Retirement benefits.
Kubby/I think it's a great idea.
Lehman/I do to.
Kubby/It's another way of coordinate and cooperation on the City's be efficient and help
out there goals that are some of our goals and you know frankly it helps some of
our work and research that's been done over the years on how to do this stuff.
Thornberry/Will they be using county vehicles for example?
Dvorak/Dean we have not fine tuned that either, but I have a proposed budget that may
answer some of those questions or really didn't want me to present last year they
wanted to see first of all what the study committee came up with. The study
committee is totally in favor of the adoption code Code S, support of the Home
Builders Association, we asked support from the public. We had an informal
meeting inviting the public to it and we've had one person say their not interested
and that' s it through out the whole community. So to answer your question I
think all we're asking for this evening is just your support to go ahead and look at
writing a contract.
Lehman/Absolutely. Go ahead.
(all talking)
Thornberry/If the county's interested in bringing their building codes and whatever to
city's standards I think that's great.
Dvorak/Well we like the idea of using Iowa City, we even talked the possibility of even
Coralville or something like that. We wanted to come to Iowa City first.
Coralville may entertain the idea of giving us also a quote or a.
Norton/S ay a contract you mean.
Dvorak/They lost their chief inspector about the time we started sort of starting with
Doug and I'm not sure what the status is of having a chief inspector in place now.
Norton/I imagine your still not even though your not to be seen, that the city has some
things that are beyond UBC different from.
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Dvorak/Actually (can't hear) home builders there's some things that the city has that
they like a lot, the city has changed in the last few years and they have more
understanding of the Home Builders Association concerns.
Norton/Trying to.
Dvorak/And they've been our whole study committee supports Iowa City' s building
code adoption regardless if we work out a contract between municipalities. I
believe we can still adopt your code.
Norton/Well assuming it's a (can't hear) it makes a good little easier to train and review
and all of that.
Dvorak/Yea, 100 percent. And we'll see that in the next two years there may be a
unified metropolitan code any way.
Norton/Right.
Dvorak/Could be talking about a national code.
O'Donnell/Why could you not adopt our code and the two employees report to the
county I mean I'm not I'm not following what.
Dvorak/We don't have the expertise.
Lehman/Training, training process.
Thornberry/What are the codes?
Lehman/Our training.
Vanderhoef/The ones we adopted.
Thornberry/So we.
Boothroy/That' s what I meant by jump starting the program because they would be
working with seasoned and experienced inspectors in our department and they're
very good at what they do and they will learn faster. And the other thing is that.
Norton/Yea they probably have an experienced perhaps.
O'Donnell/And this is temporary.
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Boothroy/And the other thing is t hat the home builders that are working in the city also
work in the county and so we have a working relationship with those individuals
and so it will happen much smoother than if you start a whole new, it will work
better.
O'Donnell/If it's quick, I didn't understand that they didn't actually take it over.
Lehman/No no I don't think that's necessarily true, to me it's a duplication of service for
them to offer the same inspection service that we do.
Vanderhoef/Yea.
Lehman/You know money comes out of the county pot that's over here and the city pot
that's over here so that if we have one inspection department doing it obviously
we're all better off.
Norton/So in principle you save some overhead there.
Lehman/Absolutely.
Vanderhoef/Absolutely.
Boothroy/The other thing you get to is that with a larger inspection department when
people are on vacation people can cover for each other so it's going to be easier to
keep it rolling and for those unusual circumstances.
Vanderhoef/It's cost effective for the builders and for the home owners actually to have
the same codes being used.
Boothroy/It's easier to understand.
Vanderhoef/Absolutely I mean there's no question whether whether you live just outside
or just inside the city limits then we know where we're going with all of this.
Dvorak/We will also have a financial breakdown too I believe they've started and I
personally think this information I received is if our economy stays similar to the
way it is fight now I think you know you may come up with a buck in your pocket
I don't know it's pretty close, we don't know.
Boothroy/Start up costs are the first year will be a (can't hear), but your revenues will
probably, otherwise it should work out.
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Dvorak/That's why I think Doug would like to 3-5 year contract just because.
Vanderhoef/I do to.
???man/Good.
Norton/I think it's fine (can't hear) we've got people sitting around doing nothing (can't
hear).
Vanderhoef/When a job is eliminated, when the job is eliminated there 's not a problem, I
mean we don't go out hunting to lay people off but if the job is no longer there it
happens.
Boothroy/And then they'd be filled into the in the details that we work out in terms of
the contract cause I know that the past when the city's had federal funds or so
forth that kind of limitations sometimes pointed out. If the contract were to say
the city employee and the contract are only five years then it's often brought into
the hiring process so the people know it's a five year contract.
Vanderhoef/Yea and it might be easier for them to be a city employee versus county
employees.
Boothroy/I think that' s the things we have to work in terms of details.
Vanderhoef/(cant hear).
Dvorak/Well once we start the program for sure we're not going to eliminate (can't hear).
We're not going to throw the building (can't hear). I worked to hard for this.
Vanderhoef/And you have the support of the Supervisors which is good.
Dvorak/I don't know I have the support by the previous Supervisors.
Vanderhoef/Oh.
Dvorak/Yea and I've seen a lot more support with this board uniformly unified in most
things that they've done recently than they have in the past so I foresee them
continuing, they've not told me to stop.
Boothroy/Your public heating process has gone well to so.
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Dvorak/Yea a lot of informational meetings, and again I've not been directed not to do it
they've still been very positive.
Lehman/So.
Thomberry/Will the county be hiring these people or the city will be dealing?
Boothroy/Yea we will be hiring.
Dvorak/Yea we like the county doing it we haven't sat down and discussed it.
Boothroy/Oh I think we would be involved in the hiring of personnel whether their
county or city employees that has to be worked out.
Vanderhoef/We leave that to the.
Boothroy/But since we're going to be managing them we will be involved in hiring the
person.
Thornberry/I mean they'd they'd have to wear a shirt that said "County Inspector" not
"City Inspector".
Norton/Yea, so that.
(All talking).
Thornberry/To me that' s kind of important because.
Boothroy/We don't have shirts that say city inspector on them.
Thornberry/Say hey the city' s coming out to inspect our property.
Champion/Just get a little Velcro patch.
Boothroy/Well with JCCOG we get one of those magnetic strips that we can just.
Vanderhoef/Put on their forehead and it will stick there.
Dvorak/There will be complaints to feel. There is going to be concems shed by the
public you know the stereotype of Iowa City coming out in the county that's why
we're here this evening asking for your permission to go ahead with this it's not
them asking your permission, it's me.
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Boothroy/Well.
Vanderhoef/(can't hear).
Boothroy/By guys.
Lehman/OK Council appointments, Library Board of Trustee's
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Library Appointments
Vanderhoef/I move we reappoint Singerman, Jesse Singerman.
O'Donnell/I second.
Thornberry/No these are these are for six year fight? Yea six year appointments.
Vanderhoef/That's their appointment.
Thornberry/I understand it. But I think that two terms is probably plenty.
Vanderhoef/We don't have (can't hear).
Thornberry/That's 12 years on a board.
Vanderhoef/I don't think we can say anything about that the Library Board (can't hear).
Lehman/Well we make the appointment.
Thornberry/We can say, we can say.
Vanderhoef/We make the appointments yea.
O'Donnell/Do we have somebody?
Kubby/Those are first term.
Thornberry/Pardon me? I understand I understand I'm just looking down the road.
Norton/I agree, it's long I don't know why it's that way.
Thornberry/Twelve years on a board is probably (can't hear).
Norton/It seems to me they were arguing about a time.
Lehman/It is a long time.
Thornberry/So two terms I think is probably I mean when it comes up again I hope the
council whomever they may be of course I don't know.
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Lehman/Dee will be here so.
Thornberry/When it comes up again for another 18 years it's a.
Lehman/Do we have agreement on Jessie again?
Thornberry/Yes.
O'Donnell/Yes.
Kubby/Yes.
Lehman/OK. Council time anybody have anything to make?
Council Time
1).
Kubby/I have two things. One is some of the intersections in the crash analysis stuff
that that JCCOG transportation folks did I have a concem about the Washington
and Johnson Street one and we're only suppose to bring things up if we have
concerns and one of them is lowering the median when we have to remove the
trees. The trees make I thought I'm not sure what the exact problem is. Is it the
median and/or is it the tree? The median is flattened and the tree remains I mean
Project Green was a part of designing and planting all those things it would be a
big change to the neighborhood to not only reduce the median but also cut a
couple of the trees down and I guess I want to understand it more before I say OK
to get some input from Project Green and that neighborhood because it's a
residential and a commercial neighborhood that has a certain feel to it. So I want
to slow down on that particular one until I get some more information.
Thomberry/That's the one I brought up a little earlier I believe. But if they're cutting it
down, if they're reducing the size of it for safety purposes I think the safety of
individuals is far more important than.
Kubby/Well I don't know if they put the median down that really increases visibility, I
don't know if they need to cut the median and the tree down.
Champion/Oh I see what your saying.
Vanderhoef/I read something I thought maybe that they were saying that the trees are
not at such a size that the bulb on it was in a position where it was creating a.
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Norton/Those are very old trees.
Kubby/Well it says for the improvements and those little (can't hear) things it says
remove raised median and replace with lower median similar to those on Iowa
Avenue.
Norton/That would be a very big thing.
Kubby/Tree canopy should be at least 10 foot above grate but I don't know if the trees
currently are there or not but vegetation should be designed to reduce mid block
pedestrian crossing. I don't know if that means current removal or not so I guess
before we say.
Vanderhoef/Find out.
Thomberry/Steve's made.
Steve Atkins/No Steve does not know. How about the other four of them?
Norton/I want to make a comment about the other.
Lehman/All fight.
Atkins/Washington and Johnson find out for sure and we'll get back to you.
Kubby/The others sound very reasonable.
Norton/There's two points there and I've been making them for a long time and just
exactly those particular ones the two on Johnson and Jefferson and the two on
Govemor, College and Iowa. All about some of this cramming the comers, that
people park to close to the comers and they even park where there's no parking.
Vanderhoef/In front of the sidewalks.
Norton/If you look very carefully at the cutback how close their jamming up to the
comers, it seems to me that is really where the problem is and the median thing
happened on Washington Street there's a median that cuts fight through between
Van Buren Street and Johnson Street there's a cut through. And one time I was
coming down Washington Street and somebody' s going through there and you
can't see them at all.
Atkins/OK.
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Norton/They're sitting behind in behind those medians. I wait to see that median that
butchered very much before we look at how those comers at the comer Steve.
Atkins/OK.
Champion/And another place it gets really badgered is like Govemor and Burlington
really tight with the stop light there you can now take a fight hand turn on red and
if your coming off of Summit onto Burlington and your going to go up Governor
you can not see the inside lane of Governor because cars park all the way to the
comer.
Norton/They come clear up.
Atkins/Say it again Connie. Take me through it again.
Thornberry/Yea yea your fight.
Kubby/Your heading west on Burlington and want to turn.
Atkins/West on Burlington.
Champion/Yea, heading west on Burlington
Atkins/Down the hill.
Champion/I'm on in the fight hand lane because I'm going to make a fight hand turn
onto Governor and the light is red, my light is fight I can make a fight hand turn
but you can not see the inside lane of Govemor.
Lehman/Because parked cars are to close to the intersection.
Champion/You can see the outside lane but you can't see the inside lane.
Lehman/All around the city I think that's true.
Champion/They are parked fight up to the comer.
Atkins/Yea OK. Now I Gotcha.
Champion/And I just know that it's really become a problem since we have a stop light
there now cause you can turn fight on red.
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(All talking).
Lehman/Think the code is 15 feet.
Norton/It's worth your life anytime you try to drive on Iowa Avenue but you can't from
Van Buren or Johnson you can not see.
Atkins/On a number of occasions we have pulled back one car length from that and
surpfisingly we had loads of complaints. (can't hear).
Champion/You get complaints for everything you do.
(All talking).
Champion/I complain cause you haven't done it and then when you do it your going to
get complaints.
Vanderhoef/Isn't there a law though that you have to park X number of feet from a stop
sign?
Lehman/15 feet.
Atkins/Yep.
Lehman/15 feet from the intersection.
Thornberry/And a large car the front end is fight at the sidewalk.
Norton/(cant hear).
Thornberry/You bet.
Atkins/I' I1 check on that.
Champion/It's really strange cause I've never noticed it before.
Atkins/OK I'll take care of it.
Norton/Well I got a problem one just to quick.
Lehman/Yes.
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2). Norton/We have not yet done anything about signs on our parking structures on
Burlington Street?
Atkins/No.
Norton/You can come up there and not know that those are parking structures.
Atkins/Well we had three designs we argue about and throw them away.
Norton/I know but sometimes we need to let people know that where these things are and
that ought to I'm still interested in letting them know whether there's space in
there so they don't.
Atkins/That's one of the issues.
3). Norton/And I still think we, there were a couple letters in the people today, but the
loading downtown is a total drag. It is a total drag on Dubuque Street particularly.
We've got to reconsider the hours.
Atkins/Yea.
Norton/Or the days they can do that, we've got to find some way to get those things from
out of the middle.
Atkins/Well we were talking about the Dubuque one, fight here where Connie.
Norton/Center unloading zone on Dubuque Street pfimarily.
Atkins/One of the difficulties is that there are four bars fight there. We know full well
that if you make them park a couple block a block away there not going to tote the
beer up the street and.
Norton/There's an alley.
Atkins/I evidently they can't get in there. We understand that we're going to contact the
distributors and those folks and say look we have no desire to issue you tickets but
come on people.
Norton/Can that be on the agenda Wednesday when we talk tomorrow?
(All talking)
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Atkins/Well they'll slip back into their bad habits yea.
(All talking).
O'Donnell/(can't hear) a van or something (can't hear).
Atkins/Oh I don't know.
O'Donnell/I think that would answer a lot of the problems.
Champion/Part of the problem is they have their lunch while they're parked there.
(All talking).
Atkins/I don't know anything about it.
Champion/It doesn't take them that long to unload the beer, they run to the bank, they
have lunch, other.
Lehman/All fight anything else Karen.
4). Kubby/I have a second one and that is we have we did not approve the household
hazardous waste facility at the landfill because the bid was to high and I had
thought that what we had directed was to cut or the idea of reducing costs was
kind of to reduce the amount of concrete involved in the whole thing. I kind of
heard through talk around town that it maybe that the whole building is being
redesigned to be just kind of a square building without the alternative energy
aspects to it and I would be real concerned about that and so I guess I want an
update about what is it, how are we redesigning because it's not as acceptable
facility for me if it doesn't have those other things.
Atkins/From my conversations with Chuck just today I asked what's the status and stuff
and they were doing a redesign and I didn't think it was that drastic, I will find
OUt.
Lehman/Well I think the new design will include heating with used fuel oil so part of it
will be the same but we had a tough time justifying the building that looked like
that one for folks who are going out to the dump.
Kubby/All fight but it doesn't mean it has to be a square pole building and that's kind of
what I heard but that may be completely wrong so that's why I'm asking about it.
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Lehman/OK.
Thomberry/(can't hear).
Lehman/OK. I've got a couple things.
Thornberry/(can't hear).
Kubby/It's a community facility, it's an educational facility.
5). Lehman/Steve I don't know what the I don't know what the time frame is for signs
downtown. We've got kids tiding bicycles in the plaza on the sidewalks
downtown, there are no signs to tell those kids they can't tide.
Atkins/I know.
Lehman/Oh you know.
Atkins/This is all kind of activities.
Lehman/I thought it was a surprise.
6). Lehman/Other thing we're having a meeting Wednesday aftemoon at 3:30 with the
bar owners now I hope that's a meeting where we listen instead of talk. We're
going to tell them well I'd like to encourage as many folks as can be there but
we're going to you know see what kind of ideas they have to solve some of the
problems and I think maybe get a better understanding of some of t he.
Champion/It's going to be here fight?
Lehman/It's going to be here but some of the problems they have so that when we talk if
we do about measures that will affect the bars at least we'll have a better
understanding of where their coming from so I cenainly would encourage and
how many people do plan on being there? Mafian we need somebody from your
office.
Marian Karr/So it's a work session?
Lehman/Well I'm not sure that we'll be participating a great deal I really am more
interested in what they have to say but.
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Karr/If you have a quorum and your going to be discussing it later it's a work session.
Lehman/You know your fight across the hall dear.
(All talking).
Lehman/Oh then post it.
Dilkes/She's got to post it and.
Champion/Yea post it.
Lehman/OK.
7). Kubby/Just on this thing with people biking and stuff on the streets I really think this
fall when or I guess mid-August when students come back that we really need to
have a lot of police presence or other presence downtown creating good habits on
the front end of this tester than we need to tell there's a huge problem.
Lehman/And the officer's are really really good with these kids, their not, I mean their
telling them, the kids really don't know cause there no signs.
O'Donnell/That's why is it realistic to put the skateboard park downtown and expect
kids not to skateboard downtown?
(All talking).
Lehman/All fight (can't hear).
8). Thornberry/Whose responsible for putting up the signs that say watch your speed, 25
watch your speed, who is that?
Atkins/The yellow signs.
Thornberry/Whose we?
Atkins/We at engineering.
Lehman/City.
Vanderhoef/That's dumb.
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Thomberry/They look, they look (can't hear).
Dilkes/No that' s Rick I think.
Thornberry/(can't hear).
Vanderhoef/Check your speed.
Thomberry/And check your speed 25 mph.
Vanderhoef/And they move them around every so often so.
Thomberry/(can't hear).
Atkins/If you've got locations tell me about it.
Thornberry/Forever. Well it's on a street on a one block short one block street with a
stop sign at each end. And there is parking on both sides and you can't go 25
miles an hour. (can't hear). You can't go.
Champion/Put it on Highland.
Thornberry/And gees.
Atkins/Do you have the address?
Thornberry/I'll get you the address. I'm talking about Goosetown. That's traffic
calming.
Lehman/Anything else, all fight. See you tomorrow night.
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