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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1999-06-16 TranscriptionJune 16, 1999 Council Work Session Page 1 June 16, 1999 Council Work Session 3:30 PM Council: Lehman, Champion, Norton, O'Dounell, Thornberry, Vanderhoef (Kubby absent) Staff: Helling, Karr Tapes: 99-69 all (Problem audio tape - First 27 minutes missing) Lehman/City' s perspective, help you folks, we're here I think with anything your ideas as to what you think we could do, what we should do, or what we're not doing what we should do. We're doing what we shouldn't do. A number of suggestions that have been floating around, the Stepping Up Project (can't hear) that committee and we received responses from a number of different communities around the country. (Can't hear) Council has not discussed anything relative to bar issues. I mean it has not been discussed. I think it's really important that before we start discussing these things we have some feel for where you guys are coming from (can't hear). But I really think we need to understand the problem as much as we can before we start diving in and looking ordinances that other communities have been done. Which may or may not work, which may or may not be good ideas. So Dale has got a list of some of the things that have been kicked around. None of these suggestions, none of these have been talked about by council at all except I think keg registration thing was kicked around a little bit, and we dropped that. But there has been no discussion of any kind in part of council and I suspect there may be some discussions obviously the Stepping Up Project has a very strong interest in underage drinking. The community I think has a very strong interest. I think bar owners have a very strong interest in it too so that's why we're here I want everybody to feel free to say whatever you think. Dale will go through some of the things that have been kicked around by Stepping Up and some other folks and that I really would appreciate any comments you might have and if you, this is being recorded because there are more than three council members here so if you have a comment it would really be beneficial if you could step up, if your sitting in the audience step up tot he table so these mic's can pick it up. It will be on tape and this will be then transcribed I'm not sure and copies will be available. So Dale. Oh I'm sorry. OK. Let's just start over here and introduce ourselves quickly because we're eating up time. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of June 16, 1999. WS061699 June 16, 1999 Council Work Session Page 2 Introduction of people in audience. Dale Helling/(Can't hear and understand) Discuss that I'm aware of in terms of regulations on price special. The whole idea of somehow eliminating or straining price specials is to encourage people to drink more. (can't hear) Happy Hours and such. The question is whether people under 21 should be allowed in bars. (can't hear). I believe there was a state law (can't hear). Also they talked about the possibility putting out (can't hear) number of licenses in the community or use the stepping stones or designated areas of whatever. That concept is being looked at by Stepping Up. (Can't hear). And then the question that I think Council has raised (can't hear). Input Julie Phye - Coordinator/(Can't hear) (Tape dead) / I guess one of the concerns that comes out saying that is I went to peak by day part???. I, a majority of my business is full, so during certain times of the day I don't necessarily want to be focused on doing liquor sales. OK. I want to sell a few drinks to a lot of people. OK. But to be competitive in the liquor business and the bar business and to be part of the responsible for me (can't hear) I need to be able to choose my prices at different (can't hear). Helling/Well in a way it's not about setting a price it's just about how specials are promoted, advertised and (can't hear). We haven't really gotten into a lot of detail but I have read some things from other states that have, generally it's not a state law it's rather the State Liquor Control Commission has an administrative rules (can't hear) and it is different in different states some allow at certain times others disallow it all together. There's a whole variety of things we need to look it. So it's pretty hard to say that price specials (can't hear) would do this or wouldn't do that when you start to look at all the issues and see what they are. But generally it's it goes to the advertising and the short term reduction prices who rather than say that the product should. (Dead tape) Leah Cohen/Quite as familiar with downtown Iowa City and I guess I'm speaking more about downtown Iowa City because that' s where the heavy concentration of bars are. I'd been there about 16 years and when I first opened there wasn't obviously much competition as there is today and I was a restaurant. I closed at 11:00 at This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of June 16, 1999. WS061699 June 16, 1999 Council Work Session Page 3 night because I did not want to deal with the drunks plain and simple I did not want to deal with it. As it went into the 90's I was probably about 10 years older and competition came in, more competition came in, more competition came in bars became restaurants and restaurants became bars. It used to be very distinctly different. But in order for people to survive I think with the competition you have to make decisions on what to do. About 5 or 6 years ago I made a decision to stay open late at night for that college crowd. It was strictly a financial decision, if I had not done I probably would not be here today. In looking at that and looking at the evolution and what has happened, today in downtown Iowa City with the number of liquor licenses, the number of establishments just continue to open the specials are unbelievable, absolutely unbelievable what is going on with specials. I have no idea of ordinances can control that sort of thing, if they can I would be thrilled to death that they did. Because it would certainly make it all profitable, much more profitable for all of us. But in looking at that what I see has happened a couple of things have happened. Number one the students are drinking cheaper than they have ever drank. It costs students literally nothing to go down Iowa City and drink every single night of the week. It's cheap as can be, they have ample money to do it. That has to do with the specials. The other thing that's happening that I see is happening a lot with students and just addressing the underage factor is in the last probably about the last two years students are staying home and drinking shots so they can come downtown and not be caught in the bars with a drink in their hand. They are going into the bars and drinking shot after shot quick when police aren't around so that they can get a high and not have to worry about that. That to me is a very big issue that it is a real binge drinking problem. When I was younger and we drank we did not go and out drink boom boom boom. They claim this is a high school issue too the kids are doing that they have a two hour period of time in the evening in high school and their drinking bang bang bang. The same thing is going on with college students today. I never saw it prior to a couple years ago. It's very prevalent today and all the underage kids will tell you that's exactly what they do. I don't know what the answer is to that I obviously don't know the answer to a lot of it. I do think and I in particular have an interest in I do think that as bar owners we do need to take responsibility I think it's essential though in looking at that and looking at Iowa City and having a fair environment for everyone to operate that whatever is done or whatever we would do I think has to be ordinance or law or something that everyone would be required to do. I don't think that saying you know coming to the bar owners and saying you know can you guys quit your happy hours and five are going to say yes and five are going to say no and the five that say no are going to be the financially up ones. So I do think that in whatever is looked at to help this situation I do think we do need to look at a fairness across the board for all liquor license holders and that can include too whether it's grocery stores you know whatever it may be. The drinking is not just coming out of the bars in Iowa This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of June 16, 1999. WS061699 June 16, 1999 Council Work Session Page 4 City I do think that the with the situation fight now downtown I hear from landlords, the empty buildings and what do they get they get people that want bars and restaurants you know. The last thing we need is more bars and restaurants downtown I think. But I would guess it will get much worse before it gets better and I think that I don't know what the answer is. I think opening up and talking about it is certainly a good answer and I do highly support Stepping Up Program getting liquor license holders on your Committee because I think you really need to understand what the total situation is downtown. There's been a lot of publicity lately and I just have to mention this about you know bar checks and these lists that go in the paper and bar checks. And I'm one of those top on that list and my concern is that I'm not very tough when it comes down to that sort of criticism on that but there is not equal anything that goes into these sort of bar check list that everybody talks about and looks at. I happen to have a long narrow restaurant you come into my place if it's busy you're going to find a minor or two there's no question in my mind because I'm very thoroughly checked all the time. You go into another place and you can't necessarily tell so these lists are you know are simply just lists. They certainly do not reflect at all what goes on in a lot of establishments. And I would be happy to talk about that further if ever wanted. /I'm kind of back on this specials thing. By issuing more liquor licenses day after day, I mean it seems like we've got new businesses coming to town all the time. Isn't that increasing the competition to drive out cheaper drink specials and what not? Lehman/Good question. / So you would be willing to look at a number of liquor licenses per square mile type thing? Norton/Something like that. Champion/I would not. Thomberry/I wouldn't either. Lehman/Well I think that if something I think that we would discuss whether or not there' s interest in doing it I don't know but I do think that's one of the. I think that every every suggestion will be looked at. It doesn't mean it will be supported or implemented but I can't imagine that we would refuse to look at any suggestion. Now whether or not we would implement it is something else. / Is that something that the city could do I mean wouldn't the state have to, if someone applied to the state? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of June 16, 1999. WS061699 June 16, 1999 Council Work Session Page 5 Lehman/My understanding is that liquor licenses can be controlled by zoning. In other words you can allow a certain number of licenses in a zone. I don't know if that's true that's my understanding. / You have to be careful with Coralville also. / Drive the (can't hear). Lehman/It's very complicated. / Right. Then you get West Branch and Hills and North Liberty and. Lehman/Solon. / It breeds a whole different bunch of problems. Chris Colter/I'm Chris Colter I'm with the Iowa Hospitality Association we are also affiliated with a National Restaurant Association. The reason I'm here today is we have a number of members in this area and they've asked me to come and sit in. One of the things I want to point out to you is Stepping Up is that if you need information the National Restaurant Association has a tremendous research department if you need information and research, statistics they can get it for you. Mike is on the Board of the National Restaurant Association and we can help you with that. We do want to be a part of the solution. One of the things that we feel statewide and we see it again and again each state we also have an affiliation with is that there's enough laws and ordinance, we don't need to add you know additional ordinances and (can't hear). We just need to enforce the ones we have. You know the law is that you know and we are bound by we pay (can't hear) insurance, we have third party liability you know we have to train our people, these people can't aren't suppose to come into our places drinking. If they're intoxicated or our people are trained and most of them are trained to recognize that I'm certain. They're also recognized there's such charts that we can show you there's different things we can take a look at but there's laws, you know you don't dfink until your 21 you know. And the ordinance in Iowa City says you can be in a bar at 18 and you've got to do everything within as a responsible license holder provide by law enforce that. If they're not abiding by law, let's enforce these issues you know. There are enough laws rather than saying all fight we're going to do half the ordinances. You know we look at California and the smoking ordinance you know. Look how that has affected that's going to be repealed because it's just going to be another enforcement issue that the city has to deal with. One of the things too that I keep hearing too is that about you know about This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of June 16, 1999. WS061699 June 16, 1999 Council Work Session Page 6 downtown downtown. When you talk about these happy hour ordinances the people that are affected are not, when you talking this is an Iowa City issue you've got Ground Round, you've got TGI Friday's that aren't downtown the restaurants and their bars and their bars that aren't downtown. So you know your focusing on this local issue you have to keep in mind when you do this ordinance your affecting non-downtown businesses as well. It's pretty much it, again we are a state restaurant association, we can be a resource, we have a lot of resources, we've got training resources available, we can talk about different training opportunities. Some of the different chain operations the independent operations have those in place. And we talked to Lew at the Fieldhouse they have TIPS training. Talked about card swiping mechanisms that are in place we have those and we market those. But that' s you know there are a lot of things we can talk about some positive solutions instead of just like let's throw another law at it and that's going to solve it. And so that's one of the things we just want to encourage to take a look at. Thornberry/You know as a former as a former bar owner and license holder of Maxie's I started, I opened Maxie's I built it, Max is my middle name so I called it Maxie's. I had that for quite a while and then being in the Burger King business and so I've been in the bar business, I've been in the food business and now wearing another hat the City Council and I get different problems from each in the downtown Burger King was if you'd not sold liquor don't tell me you wouldn't be in business because you had a damn good restaurant and I'd go in there for your food so you'd still be in business but you wouldn't sell alcohol you'd just sell food and you'd have a real good restaurant. And there are problems with each one, yea as a Burger King owner I'd love to see a law where you would limit the number of fast food restaurants in a square mile or something like that, better for me. As a bar owner, gees if you limit the number of bars that people can go in, better for me I've already got mine, the hell with you you know but I don't know if I want to do that with private enterprise I think the better ones are going to succeed and the ones that aren't so good are going to give the specials to the point where they're going to not make any money anyway I don't know. But I know it doesn't take much. I'd love to have the profit margin in a hamburger business that you all have in the bar business I'd love that profit margin but I didn't have it. And I know that profit margin and it's pretty good. So I know the specials that can be given but and being the owner of Maxie's if nobody gave specials I'd love it but all it takes is two or three and then five and then 20 to start giving specials again. What do you do? And I'm sure not in the of the mind to tell you that you must limit your specials, I think that's your business. Sorry Stepping Up ifthat's what you want I can't agree with that because your doing your doing what you think is best for your business. But I'm also getting the criticism gees these people go downtown and they get drunk and on their way back to the dorm rooms This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of June 16, 1999. WS061699 June 16, 1999 Council Work Session Page 7 and the fraternity houses and sorority houses they beat up property and they cause all this damage and the clean up. Champion/And they break windows. Thornberry/Break windows and all the clean up that's required, that's part of being in the college business I think also. If it weren't for this being a college town there wouldn't be near as many bars or restaurants or people. I don't know what the answer is but I know that there's an awful lot of damage and there's a lot of kids getting hurt by drinking too much. Is that our fault? No it's not our fault. Is it your fault? No it's not your fault. I still think everybody should be able to take responsibility for their own actions and if they drink too much and that's their defense that's their problem I don't think it's the bar owners problem and I did as a bar owner have a problem with somebody who drank too much and went out and drove and killed somebody. So I know what that will do to your insurance. I do know that. So are you responsible? The court says you are responsible if somebody drinks in your establishment and I don't care how much they drink if their deemed to be drunk when they kill somebody your responsible. And I don't think that's fair but that's the way the laws are so it is part of our problem as bar owners as people in the city so what is it that we can do about it? I don't know. That' s why we're here I guess Stepping Up and everything and what do we do? And if somebody's got an idea I'd be glad to hear it. Champion/Does anybody? Is the Stepping Up and I know we're probably not suppose to carry on a big discussion here but one of the things that amazes me is that the penalty for being caught as an underage drinker in a public bar or wherever is so small. It seems that if you really want to cut underage drinking downtown you would fine that underage drinker a lot stiffer fine because mom and dad don't mind paying $50.00 or even a $100.00 but if it were $300.00 or 400.00 you would stop the underage drinking downtown Iowa City. Lehman/That's state law. Champion/Is it? Lehman/Yea, there's nothing we can do about that, your first and then you. / I guess I'm a little concerned with the direction this conversation is starting to go. We're talking about new laws with drink specials and I'm 25 years old I'd like to own a bar maybe in Iowa City and you guys are talking about limiting drink licenses and we're trying to do is talk about an underage drinking problem and I think of when I went to school here I've been here for about 7 or 8 years and I This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of June 16, 1999. WS061699 June 16, 1999 Council Work Session Page 8 think of one morning my roommate woke me up and said hey look their carrying a dead body out of the fraternity house across the street. You know it sounds like and you grieve that the problem is outside of the places that are licensed and yet we're still talking about what we can and make more laws and we're not talking about what you do with the actual drinking problem. The education of it, the problem isn't how many bars are them, or how much it costs, I mean there's a lot of kids where a beer could be $10.00 a glass, a pack of cigarettes is more than it used to be. Has that changed smoking? I think your starting to attack at the wrong way and your starting to go the wrong direction when I think the education and prevention of it have really nothing to do, I think we're targeting the bars because their an easy target but I think it's much bigger than that and even the University with making the Greeks go dry they didn't solve any problem they just washed their hands clean of it and dumped it on us. So now we have more people to deal with because the University didn't want to deal with it. They knew there was a problem, they didn't address it, they didn't try to educate, they just said you know what let's wash our hands clean of it let's send it elsewhere, so they sent it to the parties off campus, the bars, and I think that that's what we need to look at and again the liquor licenses, the dfink specials. These kids have a lot of money, they don't care how much it costs whether they're of age or underage I think we're just starting to head the wrong direction. I think the focus needs to be more on the educating people on the risks and that sort of stuff. / (can't hear). Lehman/You need to step up to the table so we can record it. / We talk about the need to drink and my issue is we have a not a little (can't hear) that's only have a fight to put their own regulation because different businesses have different situations (can't hear). Thornberry/I don't understand. Norton/I didn't get the question. Lehman/Give us the question again? / Well we have a (can't hear) based on for the binge dfink to avoid binge dfink that affect others whatever age you hold something else. Do we support the owners they won't have their own regulation to distinguish (can't hear) ways different to (can't hear) business for the (can't hear). Thornberry/For example, give me an example. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of June 16, 1999. WS061699 June 16, 1999 Council Work Session Page 9 / For example, what (cant' hear) people drink too much can they stop them or tell them if I were drunk in my bar has some regulation not (can't hear). / She's talking about moderating the number. Norton/Moderating the number. / Yea moderating consumption. Norton/Do you all do that? Do you have all of you have somebody that's saying to somebody that's obviously doused you don't sell them anymore I take it. / I can speak for us we cut off. Lehman/Would you. / I can speak for our bar, we cut off at least three to at least three to six people a night. I don't know what the other bars are doing I'm just saying that's, we do cut off a lot of. Norton/Does that relate to the Drams Shop law you really are liable for somebody that gets into heavy duty? Lehman/Oh yea. / Your liable if somebody gets in a fight at your bar and injures somebody you know you didn't get to them on time then they could sue you for (can't hear) or whatever. / Your liable as well if they've had drinks 8-9-10 drinks before they got to your bar, they've had one drink. Norton/They don't figure who where they got it. / (can't hear) they come back 3 or 4 different places. Thornberry/In my situation the guy had one beer at Maxie's went somewhere else and drank for 3 hours and I my insurance went sky high. Norton/Does that mean you sometimes stop people coming in that were manifestly out of it on the way in? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of June 16, 1999. WS061699 June 16, 1999 Council Work Session Page 10 / No the minute you see somebody if they walk over your threshold you have liability whether you serve them a drink or not. I bought just in Davenport two days ago a guy walked in I said, sir I can not serve you anything. And he goes I'm going to leave then and I said can I buy you a cab? I would pay for a cab ride home for every drunk binge drinker that walked in my door rather than have a lawsuit cause it costs hundred's of thousands of dollars a year to our company. It there' s been lawsuits 2 million and 3 million dollars you know. / Well I think our insurance premiums (can't hear) is down conservatively was somewhere around $23,000 dollars it was a high when we bought it at $36,000 a year just for the premium of the long-shot (can't hear) passes the Fieldhouse but has dropped over the last few years. Champion/Tell me what that really, what is the Dram law? Tell me what that is. / The Dram law is so that. Champion/I'm naive about all this. / I mean that' s where (can't hear) that have some place that (can't hear) you know that to be able to give somebody compensation for an accident you know and I think you know that what it is is you dealing with this and if they say they find a match book (can't hear). (End of Tape 99-69 side 1) (Can't hear). Champion/How do you control because you have quite a large bar and you can't watch every comer, how do you control somebody buying drinks for somebody else, just out of curiosity. / OK. You know the way that we do it and we involve the Iowa City police a lot and I think that (can't hear) what the bars do and I really get upset when I get upset when they when I get letters from Stepping Up Committee and all this stuff saying you don't do this, you don't do that, we have this many people coming in you know. We had so many people cited from there. You know there's a lot that goes into that. People can get charged for public intoxication (can't hear) providing just by having alcohol (can't hear) someplace else, just like the Dram. If they drink there, came in and got trouble in my place they can be charged with having that alcohol in my place because they're intoxicated and they have a single This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of June 16, 1999. WS061699 June 16, 1999 Council Work Session Page 11 tolerance for people under 21 whether they were driving or whatever. When they come into our bar because of the amount of light in through there is that we have an ID, we always have 2 people or 2-3 people at the door, and I check ID's, we have a scanner it's not up to function yet but it will be functioning before too long. That's going to be good it's going to cause two things, it's going to cause us to be quicker to ID and then again I think you need a combination of site and that scanner because you know you can give them your license if somebody's not looking (can't hear). But we ID, we ask for another ID for people under a certain age. They must have a college ID you know along with the regular ID if under the age of 21. So that we can stamp legals, we stamp legals on the top of their hand and minors on the bottom. And you just (can't hear). / Some of those ID's are getting pretty sophisticated too. / Yea they are sophisticated, we limit the amount of drinks that we serve a legal person. If somebody comes up and orders six beers we do not serve it to them. We limit them to two drinks. We do not hand out empty cups. There's all sorts of things that we try to, anytime there's a problem we call the police department and ask them to send police down and at that time (can't hear). Who in fact I asked to come here and (can't hear). I wanted him to tell what some of the bars are doing to solve this problem because we you know our liquor license is our livelihood here. I was in an A & W Root Beer business for years and I have just as many you know I had some problems there with kids too. But I've only been in the bar business a few years and in the restaurant business a lot longer than that so this is something new to me. And I grew up in this community, my wife's practicing medicine in this community and I really take offense when people say that I'm serving what they call minors. We don't allow minors in our place after a certain time frame. 18 years (can't hear). Thornberry/After what time? / After 12:00, after we usually go by like 9:00 and you've got your kid in there and your eating dinner at my place I'm not going to tell you you have to leave. We also serve food there but that's all self contained (can't hear). On football Saturday' s I've even got babies, I've got baby chairs for my customers they don't have a problem with it so you know. But we self impose (can't hear) usually our cut off is 10:00 and if we do have young children you know with their parents we ask them to stay in the restaurant and get them out of the way. We have we employ approximately 75 people at our place and at any one time we have probably 5 managers, 2 of them Mike McCounell's our general manager, we have Ken (can't hear) our bar manager with a lot of experience and myself and my partner you'll see us there, you'll see us there. We take a very active role in our business, we're This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of June 16, 1999. WS061699 June 16, 1999 Council Work Session Page 12 there we're not absentee owners. Our manager and staff will ensure that. I'd say we try to be there anyway. We take it very seriously we do not hesitate calling the police department if we need help. If we've got somebody that we asked before to drink out, but we've ran into problems there too. I can remember one time my partner was sitting there and he was checking stamps counting people coming from the upper stairs and checking stamps of people carrying drinks and was was almost arrested by one of our police officers for obstruction of justice because they said we and he was sitting there for several you know for about 20 minutes to a half hour and we did not know they were in there for a bar check. She was under the impression that we were doing because the police were in there. But we do that, we do (can't hear) we'll go over that type of thing. We have nice security people (can't hear) on a busy weekend. These people are just there to (can't hear) you know get into trouble and if they're intoxicated. Champion/So your actually looking at somebody with a drink in their hand to see if they have a stamp. / We look at people with a (can't hear) in their hand, we've tried to limit it, you've got to remember if we're filled, we're filled. You know and when you got you know when your talking about hiring security people that's three and three in the front door and spreading the rest around the lobby and watching for people you know that if somebody vomits then you know their out of there you know we don't want to get them after that point. But we don't want people acting stupid because they vandalize our place. I mean we just spent thousands of dollars on Hawkeye Lumber rebuilding and all this stuff so. But I wish Mebis could be here because he you know he was very positive about especially Mark (can't hear) trying to do to solve this problem. Lehman/Well you mentioned several times that you called the police, how does that work? Are you pleased with the way? / Well you call them, well we've call them (can't hear) right away you know and we talk to them and we have them for like ifsomebody's come in and their causing a problem or if somebody we've asked somebody to do something and they don't do it like throw away the drink or you know don't pinch that girl or whatever it is you know and they don't do that instead of us using our forces to kick them out we call the police because (can't hear) the liability goes out the door when they come in the front door. Lehman/Would you say you have a good relationship with the police? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of June 16, 1999. WS061699 June 16, 1999 Council Work Session Page 13 / Oh excellent. I remember there was a time when we had a little bit of a problem especially when we had those big raids that included the University Security and those guys it's comical almost you know. It scared me I jumped right off a bar stool, I thought I thought (can't hear) you know and you know we had the little meeting and everything. I've never talked to the chief personally before but I've talked about everybody else in there and they listened, very helpful to me and Mebis whenever we and he's on days now but he still and I call him up and ask him if he would run a training session for our security people on ID'ing which we do we try to do two or three times a year. We have them (can't hear) we have at least force also at some (can't hear) and everything. Any trick you know different light we have that right above our (can't hear) we can see the licenses (can't hear) ride it out and we're done. We hand in I mean we hand in ID's you know sometimes 6-7 ID's a night that we've confiscated from people that try to use them I mean and they told us that we look bad for service call and that looks bad in one way but then again they tell us don't worry about it because we want you to call us. I mean they want that and I always but I think what Stepping Up Committee's doing because I think drunk driving is terrible I think that binge drinking is terrible and you can take something that's maybe some people all day to get used to it's bad for you anyway. I think binge drinking is bad for everybody, whether your 21 years old or 47 years old it's not good for anybody and we don't allow it, we don't try not to allow it, but there's going to be cases. But if I didn't know you personally you come into my bar I don't know if your acting kind of strange or your (can't hear) but once you talk to them a little bit you can usually tell and when you have 300 people in your bar you can not go out and check everybody personally. And we feel good, I think we did probably quite a few bar checks (can't hear). Lehman/OK. / On bar checks. Lehman/OK. / Can I ask the Council a question real quick? Lehman/Sure, step up please. / I'm sorry. I agree with Lew that when we call the police their real helpful with us we have a really strong relationship with them too but yea he brought up a point I wanted to ask you. How do you as a council or as a city or maybe the police chief when you look and see a certain amount of service calls from a particular bar how do you guys view that? Do you view that as a good thing or as a bad thing? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of June 16, 1999. WS061699 June 16, 1999 Council Work Session Page 14 Cause sometimes I do hesitate to call because I don't want to get another service call down there. Lehman/We don't see it, the only thing we see are the stats from bar checks and I don't know how most are attached to that, we don't see service calls. Norton/You guys talk go ahead I'll ask questions later. / Well my comment is this, a while back the Stepping Up Committee and this is the only reason I'm here. My restaurant last year I think had two people I don't know how many checks but two people taken out with fake false ID or no ID. I was there in one case where they took somebody out that we did check that person was taken out and they couldn't search him there to find it if he stuck it down his pants or in his pants or in his bag and the conclusion was I end up in the newspaper which I don't like to end up there because we are rarely there. But here we are with a new committee that comes out of the I don't know where and we're glad to see you here but I've got letters going to the Liquor Commission and the state and my letter was a guess a nice one compared to what some of the maybe bar owners and other people had sent off but where do we get the fight to send this type of information to the State of Iowa Liquor Commission about whether we're good or bad in terms of that monitoring because I don't necessarily feel that those bar checks are done properly in terms of the quality that's necessary. You can tell where the problems are but are we going after the problem? I'm not saying don't come to my place everybody's welcome to come in. Lehman/Well regarding that letter, that was I think bar checks are a matter of public record. The city had absolutely nothing to do with that, that was had nothing to do with city record. / No, well but here we are this is the city, this is an open forum and we're discussing why am I here today? I might not have been here today had this issue not come forward but what it has alerted me to the fact that I'm a restaurant owner and I object somebody trying taking away my business or deter my business when I'm working just like you are in the Fieldhouse to make every customer satisfied for whatever reason they came in and to protect my other customers and to protect the people that want to come to my restaurant. And then we have the outside forces that continue to dictate what we're suppose to do differently but yet there's not maybe equal enforcement of the law relative to it to begin with you know. / I think in that letter I think the part that got me going was saying I was breaking the law and so the first thing I do is call the police department and want to know if I have a warrant for my arrest. I know they know how to get a hold of me and I think This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of June 16, 1999. WS061699 June 16, 1999 Council Work Session Page 15 that you know worst part is being accused of something that you don't do and being accused when we're working so hard on our own. You know there's some things that you know like you know we've had nonalcoholic nights at the Fieldhouse, we don't even allow smoking in there you know. You know you can get in with a can for the food shelter. There's a lot of things, we've done a lot of things we do that, every time they come to us we'll always (can't hear) and they don't see the things we try to do as far as I'm concerned I've stopped more binge drinking than the Stepping Up Committee will ever do you know because they should stick to education because to me that education of people is going to stop them from doing it. You know you tell some kid they can't do nothing, you know what their going to do if their parents are around their going to go out and try it. But you know if you educate them on what what you know hey look at the liver on this guy, you know look at this, and this is what happens when you drink too much when you become an alcoholic and all this stuff. You know educate, it's just the drunk driving laws you know it used to be a long time ago you got stopped for drunk driving they say man you've had enough too much you better get your butt home. Now we're hauling your butt in and I think that's that makes a whole lot of difference in the enforcing that law but you know that education thing it's just you know if you look at anything that people do when people do to try to hide the problem where the use of you know where their talking about unwanted pregnancy and everything you know, they've learned it doesn't go good to tell you not to do it and we know your going to do it and so let's show you how to use a condom. You know and I think the same way with drinking their going to do it and so they might as well educate them on how to do it and tell them what happens if you binge drink so much within an hour what happens to you. / One interesting statistic on the city police bar checks, restaurant checks, their both is that it's almost equal number of bar checks to the number of people found to be illegally drinking. What type of money are we spending? Not that it doesn't have to be done but think of what it costs to go through the bars, the cost of those police people going through and look at the statistic there was 1,100 and some the last time I saw. 1,100 and some bar checks and like 1,154 people. O'Donnell/Are you saying there shouldn't be bar checks then? / No I'm not saying that, I'm not saying that I'm looking at. O'Donnell/What are you saying? / I'm saying let's look at the cost of that versus maybe education. And maybe we're focusing on the wrong issue, I mean (can't hear). This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of June 16, 1999. WS061699 June 16, 1999 Council Work Session Page 16 Thomberry/We've got police officers out there driving cars around with a pad of speeding tickets in their pocket and if and they're not getting very many speeders. You know college is out fight now so if you take some of them off the street, I don't think so, you know they're there for a reason. / But I'm just saying that we are focusing so hard on the bar business and I'm not necessarily in the bar business but look at the money spent. / Don't you think though, don't you think if they sat down the street every day and start you know going around every day and trying to get speeders they get could more? Norton/They could get more fight. Lehman/I also think that if I, Dale did the city not get or receive or Iowa City and Coralville a grant of a state? Part of that increased check is because of state moneys that must be spent for that. OK go ahead. Rhonda Leith/My name's Rhonda Leith and I'm from Panchero's, I don't know how many of you know my boss Rodney Anderson he's the president of the corporation and we're preparing to open a new location in Chicago so he working on that. He wanted me to come and just listen in and I guess I have two hats I want to wear. One is as a representative of Panchero's, and I think I support, he said that the fact that you know if they're going out and they're making 1,100 hundred bar checks and they're making 1,100 hundred arrests, is that really deterring anything? I mean we're spending, not me, but you know the city or the state or the branch or whatever we're spending that money to make all those arrests but is it really doing anything except making arrests and making things in the paper. Are the college kids really sitting there going oh wow OK they're serious now I'm going to stop. No, they're not. And I think I know a problem that we have had with the bar checks and when I'm downtown on the weekends we notice a policeman sitting fight there by Taco Bell just sitting there with their lights on apparently doing nothing and I know that that's hurt our business, our late night business and we do serve alcohol but obviously that is definitely not our main focus is alcohol. We serve it because you know our customers want to come in have a burrito and a beer or something. And so I know that's a problem that we've had. It has been getting better but you know when the police are out and they're just you know when you go do (can't hear) go into Diamond Dave's and you have a margarita and you go out and you want to walk around the ped mall and you stumble and the police stop you because they think your drink. I mean that's unbelievable to me. And that has happened to friends of mine and I think that's totally unfair and that does deter me from not only drinking downtown Iowa City but also in going to a place that's like Diamond Dave's or Friday's or This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of June 16, 1999. WS061699 June 16, 1999 Council Work Session Page 17 anything like that. And the other hat I want to wear is as a former college student I'm still kind of young that I guess I agree with you were speaking earlier about well we can sit here and we can tell the bar owners OK you've got to check ID's and you've got to do this and you've got to do that. That's not going to do anything. I think our one main problem in our society today is that no one takes responsibility for what they do. And I think that the Stepping Up Coalition has a real opportunity. I mean you obviously you guys have been given money and you've been given some prominence and a voice in the community and when I sit at the my office at 12:00 at night working and I see people basically passing out on the streets just because they think it's fun. It makes me sick. I have a four year old and seven year old and I have no idea how I'm ever going to keep my child from passing out in the middle of Clinton Street on a Friday night. Because no matter what I say or no matter what I do at home you know there are going to be, I mean all you people are going to influence my children in one way or another and unfortunately there' s a heck of a lot more of you than there are of me. And I think we just need to start teaching responsibility personal responsibility for every single action. Obviously I have responsibility for what I'm saying now so don't blame what I say if you don't like it on my boss. (All laughing). My dad's a minister and I mean it's always you k now when I watch the news, and this has nothing to do with alcohol you know you see the Columbine shooting, I wanted to scream stop. You know run out in the street and scream stop and there's just not. I don't know how to make people responsible for their actions. The Stepping Up Coalition I think is one way that the Iowa City community can do that. And I think we need to recognize that being one of only ten communities in the entire United States that could really be a stepping stone for other communities. Thornberry/How do they do that? I'm open for suggestions, and I'm not a member of the Stepping Up group. How does the, how does the Stepping Up program if bar checks don't work, if this doesn't work, if that doesn't work, if all regulations don't work, what do they do? What do they do specifically and don't just say education because that's been tried I mean we're you know it's like just say no. OK. No, give me another beer. (All laughing). Leith/No I don't have anything prepared. Thornberry/What do they do? What I mean we need some positive not a bunch of negative, this won't work, that won't. What's positive, what can work? Leith/Well I think one thing that disturbs me is is it Dale? Ran off a list of things that other communities had done OK those are other communities and it's great to look at those but I think that we really have to look at why do kids come to Iowa This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of June 16, 1999. WS061699 June 16, 1999 Council Work Session Page 18 City to go to school and why do they drink? Is it because there is nothing else for them to do? I mean is it because? / Because they're out from under their parents for the first time. Norton/That's right. Leith/Yea, what else can we do to you know to give them other things to do. I mean I don't have the answers obviously I don't. I was married mother of two when I went to college so I am not your typical college student but. Thomberry/I am. I drank a lot. Leith/But (can't hear). Norton/But that's what we're here for I'm concerned about the implications of some of your mark. For example, the presence of police, you can wish all you want that people would behave or be reasonable but that's not going to happen. I mean we can do that we wouldn't have to have any traffic checks or anything so that some kind of police presence now maybe not to the extent of doing the bar checks as frequently or as commonly they do or not. But some presence downtown you know and I've ridden with them and most of the council members have, we're pretty aware of the zoo that developed down there. Leith/That's where you come back to personal responsibility. Norton/I understand that but we. Leith/How you instill that I don't know. Norton/But in the meantime we can't change human nature instantly. Thornberry/Yep, it just takes age. Leith/The problem is though those kids that are 19 now that never learned it when they were two when their parents 6 months, 5 years from now how are they ever going to be able to teach it to their two year old? I mean we've got to realize that we're out a point now where we as adults need to say stop and we need to teach those 19 year olds personal responsibility. I don't know how, I'm not saying I do, I don't claim to. But in saying that I you know I'm tired and I do it too of people saying oh well you know there's nothing we can do because they don't have This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of June 16, 1999. WS061699 June 16, 1999 Council Work Session Page 19 responsibility, this and that. It's never to get any better unless we stop and do something about it. / I think businesses can go ahead and take that, I mean I know when we looked at trying to raise, sell our place we looked at other alternatives other than alcohol because there are a lot of students that choose not to drink. I mean you may not believe it but there are a lot of them that want to come in and dance. Norton/Yep. / They want to come in for a burger basket, they want to come in and shoot a game of pool and all that and that's why we have security people to make sure that everything goes OK for these people. A lot of them come in and choose not to drink. We spent a lot of money last year installing different types of drink machines to serve mock-cocktails, different alcohol. We were toying with the idea of putting in O'Doul's but a lot of policeman said no don't do that that will confuse us we'll come in and see a glass and the O'Doul's will look like beer. OK. That's an enforcement we don't want to tick off the police so we don't do that. So there's a lot of things you know you can offer them but there's not too many places that you can go to that you can have fun that doesn't serve alcohol. Norton/Why does that happen? I've often wondered for example, many communities family pool halls have become kind of popular. And well policed with big windows so they don't have the old image kind of modern, you can find them in downtown San FranciSco place. I'm not sure the heavy duty drinkers would do that but that seems to me the kind of thing we need is more options. We would like, I would personally like to have seen a skating rink right in the middle of downtown Iowa City. But that's hard to come by. You know that could turn from a skating rink for one season to something else during. The providing suitable activities even the University closed down a perfectly good bowling alley. They used to have lot more activities for people. O'Donnell/You know though we've all been sitting here and we all realize there are problems and we've listened to everybody's problems. But we've not heard one solution. I mean what are the you know and the age limits in Iowa is 21. It's not 19 and it's not 20. But I don't think you become wise of the world when you go from 20 to 21 but do we make the bar, do we make it 217 Norton/Is that a possibility? / Then the problem is what do you in a restaurant? What do you do in my place? (can't hear). This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of June 16, 1999. WS061699 June 16, 1999 Council Work Session Page 20 Norton/Let 50 percent. / What do you do in a restaurant when you've got people that are kids that are in there participating or in there eating food or in my place in the bowling center where you've got kids and their families bowling and you've got a bar in the place. I mean what do you do? Norton/But there' s options. / You can't remind everybody. But what's going to how's it going to be fair for one (can't hear)? Norton/I understand I know Ames has got one and I don't know how it works. / I understand that that' s the first suggestion. / Right. And it seems to me that the from the letter I received it seemed to me that one of the first things of importance on that letter was is that we were trying to discuss what to do with underage drinking? And it seems to me, OK, how do you deal with that? What we do at our place is everybody that gets a cups. We don't have cups number one, we have glasses. And there's pros and cons to that too sometimes they get broke. Anybody that comes up to the bar and wants a glass for water or whatever. If it looks suspicious and it's a kid they have to show an ID. We've always tried to do that and you can't watch everybody all the time just like this gentleman says when his place has 300 people in it there could be somebody sitting way off in a comer that's sending a 22 year old to get a pitcher of beer and they come back to the table and there's his little girlfriend over there you know sitting back in the comer. And I hear stories about some of this stuff and I don't know which bars this is taken place one way or another but I hear stories (can't hear). The cute little ones come in oh come on in for flee, you don't have to pay five bucks. And the guy at the door likes the look of this one and wants to hit on that one and by-golly they might look like their 16 but they go fight to the back of the bar. Norton/Tacky. O'Donnell/What would you do to suggest to make this better? I think that' s what we're trying to do. / Well your going to have to come up with some sort of a way of monitor if you've got underage ones in there, some way to monitor where they are and I know that This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of June 16, 1999. WS061699 June 16, 1999 Council Work Session Page 21 almost seems an impossibility because I know what it's like at places like his and some of the other ones where you've got them in there like sardines. Well it won't. You know a person can get up from this table and slip through the crowd and come over here and sit down and you've lost them all of a sudden you know. I don't know exactly what the solution in that case is. I do know a couple things that frustrate me. We talked about the police coming through on the bar checks now I assume when you guys are talking about bar checks you were talking about people actually coming in there, officers that come in and they go up to people and say can I see your ID, can I see your ID? As oppose to running an underage person in the bar to try to have them try to buy beer which does occasionally happen. I have a big problem with that in one respect. If your going to run a person in there, make sure they look like their 21. Don't get a 25 year old guy with a five day or a 17 year old guy that looks like he's 25 with a 3 day or a 5 day growth and run him in there and expect. Norton/Oh I see, don't make it too hard for you to (can't hear). / We got nailed with a (can't hear) violation here about three months ago and it just irritated the heck out of me because we have gone to great lengths we've got our cigarette machine as I read the cigarette bottles, and I know I'm kind of getting off the path here but. As I read the cigarette ordinance you can not have a vending machine in your business if you have anyone under the age of 18 in your business. If that's the case the cigarette machine has to be behind the bar or somewhere where there's no way that underage person can get to. Now I have a cigarette machine and I keep it there for one reason, it's an inventory control but it's back in the back room where only employees can get to it. My regular bartender had to go to the bathroom, she goes to the bathroom. This guy that looks like he's probably of age comes in and my cook trying to help my bartender because their running around like crazy. Can I get a pack of cigarettes? Yea sure she goes over and she gets a pack of cigarettes for him and 5 minutes later Officer Friendly comes in and give her a ticket. And she's bawling because she didn't know what she did and all she was trying to do was help the bartender person. So this kind of goes to extremes too you know. Ernie knows what it's like down there, I mean but. Lehman/Hey listen, that's why we're talking. How do we know what kinds of things you folks face every day? / About coming up with a solution on a little bit of a side note. Your consent that I'm going to influence your child well you've got 19 years to (can't hear) your kid until he gets to me so you ought to have him covered by the time he gets through my door. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of June 16, 1999. WS061699 June 16, 1999 Council Work Session Page 22 Thornberry/She's right, you've got to start when they're two not when they're 19. Norton/I understand. / The other thing is no I don't know how to stop all the underage drinking and Lew probably doesn't and Mike doesn't but really it's not our job to do what you guys are trying to do throughout the community. Thornberry/It's the law. / Just let me explain. He does everything beyond his powers to make sure and regulate his business. If you go into our bar which I invited a member of Stepping Up to come I took her through on an average night just said this is what happens here' s the steps, this is what we do, this is how we prevent this, it's a controlled environment, we hold a 1,000 people. There's nothing we can do about the random here and there. There's nothing we can do about that but we take every measure we reasonably can to keep underage and binge drinking from happening. And what I think what I resent and what a lot of people resent here is you kind of attack our livelihoods saying that no we're not in compliance with the law and that no we're not doing the job that we should be. And that's ridiculous, I mean our former head of security is an Iowa City police officer. All our employees go through what they call "TIPS" training, which is how to recognize if someone's been over served. How to deal with that and that stuff. And for you guys to send a letter to the state liquor you know where they issue our license, I mean I really think you took a lot of things out of context and I don't think that you understood. And I think a lot of us are more here for that than we are to tackle the community problem of underage drinking because I can't control what happens in the dorms, I can't control what happens at the Fieldhouse. But what I can do is control what happens at the Union and I think we do a really good job at it. And on another side back to all this enforcement if you go right over here to police records just ask for the crime reports for the last two years and compare when they've taken all the manpower off the streets and put it in the bar and gone after the 20 year old kid that's going to get his med. degree that blew off some steam had a beer and got caught. And you'll see that in 23 other categories crime has gone up. And it's because we're concentrating so much effort downtown and we're not protecting the other streets and I'm not talking about forgery and jaywalking, I'm talking about sexual assault, arson, vandalism, and homicide. And these aren't little things and it's like we're going after these kids and we're going after these bars but I think we're being unfairly targeted and I think Stepping Up has been has not really looked at these arrest reports and everything else. Like we'll throw a concert and we'll hold 800 people, kids come to the concert, the concert starts at This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of June 16, 1999. WS061699 June 16, 1999 Council Work Session Page 23 10:00, they go to a party before hand, the police officer comes in gives the kid a breathalyzer 22 kids get a ticket for underage dfinking, might not have even had a glass of water in the Union because they're there for a concert. We have kids get underage drinking tickets on days we don't even have alcohol being sold in the area they're at. And that's not fair, these reports are inaccurate and for you guys to not talk with us and meet with us and just bypass us and go fight to the state and put our livelihood in jeopardy, I think is unfair. And I think that's really why we're here. And I think you brung up a good point, well what are we going to do, you say educate, well someone come up with a solution. You guys come up with a solution and we'll work with you the best we can. We'll help you in any way but it's really not our job to come up with that. Thornberry/No but we, I think the Stepping Up program wanted your input and so if you could give them what you think would work. / Well and I think we've explained what it is we do and I've invited them to come in and see that. Thornberry/Well I know I know what the bar people do and like I said I was a bar owner. / And so for us telling you that what you basically, the beginning of this conversation started saying well look here's a license establishment where there's checks and balances and it's a safer environment and it's somewhat controlled and a lot of the things your talking about is pushing it away from the safe environment and sending it out where you do have no control. O'Donnell/I think I agree with one of your statements Sara I was young in college and occasionally drank a beer. But if you can say that you have a 1,000 young people in one area and call it a controlled environment (can't hear). / That's a good point, that' s a good point. But again I lived in Currier and there were 1,800 people living there. / As bartender we're suppose to be able to judge according to liquor liability laws we're suppose to be able to look at somebody and tell whether their they should be served. So if that's going to fly then how about the other thing, where the kids go to the bar, they go up there on Dubuque Street and have their 57 kegs and that's another story about I can go down and (can't hear) why we have to pay liquor liability and the 57 kegs don't but yet that person can go out and kill somebody just as well as they can coming from ours. But anyway you take that person, he's loaded, he comes down there and he's 18 years old OK, first off the guy at the door should look at him just like the bartender does and say your loaded your not This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of June 16, 1999. WS061699 June 16, 1999 Council Work Session Page 24 even coming in here, we don't even need your trouble in here. Now granted it's not a 100 percent full proof, but nothing, we're not going to come up with a solution that's 100 percent full proof, all we're going to do is try to steer it down the path we want it to go you know. And if accomplishes 55 percent of the problem then we gain something from what we had OK. So what you do is you the ones that do come in that are 18 OK you look at their hand their 18, 19, 20 or whatever they are you mark their hands. You take reasonable care to try to to try to watch them. Your not so, but on the other side of the fence when the cop comes in and says by god you've got somebody over here drinking in the comer and writes you a ticket then they should be willing to bend slightly the other way too and if it can be seen that you've had one violations (can't hear) you see what I'm saying? Because fight now I mean I'll tell you I drove home the other night I got off work about 2-2:30 I'm driving down Dubuque Street. I'm coasting down the hill and I hit about 30 mph in a 25 whoop behind me, red lights on, cop pulls me over. Can I see you license sir, I said sure, you having a nice night and I started talking with him. The minute the window went down and he could smell my breath didn't have any beer on it you could see the visible disappointment on his face. (All laughing). Get rid of me and get going down the road, he didn't want to, you know he didn't even mn my license, he just looked at it real quick and have a nice day and off he was going. So it's this us vs. them attitude a little bit that's gotta you know if we're going to try a little bit and meet them on one side then they ought to try to meet us coming back one way a little bit and not be so. O'Donnell/The bottom line is had it been somebody with a beer then (can't hear) you must enforce the law that is just what you want to do. You can't mn away from, you know I. / But where does charge go? Does it come back to the police department and when they go to court and they sit there and they go you know by god this is the first, you know it's like the poor guy that you know "at a boy .... at a boy" at a boy" "at a boy" get a hundred thousand "at a boy's" and one all you know what wipes the board clean and that's what you feel like sometimes. O'Donnell/I own a convenience store and you also (can't hear) selling beer and that's quite a few years ago and some of these (can't hear). / Computers now their getting more (can't hear). (Can't hear, several talking) / And when police ask them for (can't hear) then we can help them out with questions. Usually they don't do that then. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of June 16, 1999. WS061699 June 16, 1999 Council Work Session Page 25 O'Donnell/The best thing that I heard the issue of bar owners I think, you know there's a Stepping Up Committee (can't hear) and you've got ample couple representatives and maybe a couple and suggest outside (can't hear). (Can't hear, all talking). Thomberry/Yea it was tough, enough getting people to remember that. / Stepping Up committee and stuff like this you know you talk about underage drinking to somebody. It's not like you know if your high school someplace seniors hanging around seniors, juniors hanging around juniors. But when you come to college your in a whole different type atmosphere you start hanging around people that are 3-4 years older than you are and if you can't get into a bar you stay home. Lehman/All right we've got to, a couple more over here. Gary, you haven't spoken yet. / I have a question. What happens to the underage person who is arrested? (All talking). Champion/Their license is revoked. Lehman/One at a time. Thornberry/Or six if it's (can't hear). Lehman/Wait a minute, Dale. / They're not driving in a (can't hear). Helling/They can get a citation just for possession. If they're intoxicated though then you know they'll be arrested for intoxication and go to jail until their sober. But there's officer discretion there obviously but. (can't hear) / 150. (All talking, can't hear) / So are they usually prosecuted if they are arrested and follow through? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of June 16, 1999. WS061699 June 16, 1999 Council Work Session Page 26 Lehman/Oh I think that. Helling/They're cited in court just like a speeding ticket. Champion/If they use a. / Parents or guardians are notified. Champion/If they use a fake ID there' s a 3-month suspension of the driver's license. / Notification nothing, the court system doesn't notify the parents the university's talked about what they can and can't do because there are laws that govern that (can't hear) because I think they'd be allowed the university or may allow the university although I don't think it's been resolved yet, they allow the university to notify the parents of students but I can't recall (can't hear). (All talking). / State law. / Some of the solutions might be to take a look at I'm I'm the last one to support additional legislation on books, maybe there's a problem (can't hear) legislation. (Can't hear). / Go ahead. / Regarding legislation last year over the last few years we've been dealing with a legislative issue and two years ago a law was passed that if you served a minor a $1,500 fine for the person who served it, the minor and $1,500 fine for the establishment. And that was again if (can't hear) of losing your license. That was appealed last year when we had that reduced where now down to a $500.00 fine (can't hear). And ifit's the owner of the establishment that serves it it's $1,500. Our legislative committee and we hear about personal responsibility you know all the responsibility in all these situations is on the (can't hear). Where's the person's responsibility, if you get caught shoplifting you know, your going to jail and it's the same thing if you come into the Fieldhouse and you go to any of these places you show your ID and you show a fake ID that's your committing crimes. It's forgery, it's like counterfeit money, you know do you arrest, who gets to arrest the person that accept counterfeit money or the person who tries to pass the counterfeit money? You know and it's just, you know what we keep going This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of June 16, 1999. WS061699 June 16, 1999 Council Work Session Page 27 after is part of deep pockets. Whose got the money? Who can pay the fine? And the person responsibility and one of the things we're going to pursue this year at the state level is in increasing fines for people, get the fine up to $500 for somebody that is committing the crime, using a fake ID. And hopefully then hold them accountable. What is the university willing to do if they want to solve this problem and you've got someone that's in there that's committing a crime you know. You always want to go back to the bars, but they've checked them, they've checked them twice, they've checked them three times. They come in and they've tried and they've had someone else obviously buy them a drink, those people those two people committed a crime. The bar owner, the establishment you know their trying to support the law doing the things they can do. So I think it has to come down to looking at again I we're not favoring additional legislation but looking at things to hold people more accountable I think getting their pocketbooks you know looking at their education. What are we going to do because it is our livelihood that they're trying to take away from us. We want them in our places of business and we want them to abide by the law. If their under 21 drink pop, have sandwiches, enjoy yourself, dance, you have things to do because we need those things to do. Well you've said the university closed the bowling alley down, they've done this, there's no money in it for them. So what are they going to do they want to go out and socialize. And it would be nice if they could socialize in a controlled environment, rather than at some party in a field. Thornberry/Are you part of a pack that goes to the state and gets in? / Right we're the Restaurant Association of Iowa. Thornberry/You know I would suggest along with that and I it's just an idea. But putting the onus on the person who purchases the product illegally is where it ought to be number one, but number 2 along with that someone who purchases alcoholic beverages at a convenience store or a grocery store and gives it to minor's ought to be doubled. Ought to double that or do it for every person they gave it to. If they gave it to four people and there's four in the car and they're drinking they're all underage and this one guy who's 21 bought it and their having a party. Have them per person you know a $1,500 per person. / Right. Thornberry/But they're going to have to do that to go along with the guys who buy (can't hear). This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of June 16, 1999. WS061699 June 16, 1999 Council Work Session Page 28 / Mike Jensen is our state president address, he knows, there's a lot of legislation that we have to look at closely you know cause it is. Your walking a fine line and you say well you ought to do this and what we don't want to be is overregulated, overregulated, overregulated. But we need to put more responsibility on people paying the fine and that's the minor. There's some people coming in and trying to take your livelihood away. Lehman/We're going to have to. O'Donnell/(can't hear) Like the Fieldhouse, you've got three guys, and if I went into a bar with a fake ID as soon as I get in there no one will (can't hear) fake ID. None of my friends of age will have it, (can't hear) and you know once a person can check the bar I think it pretty much (can't hear) the bar (can't hear). (All talking). O'Donnell/(Can't hear). Lehman/All fight Gary, we're going to have to wind this up Gary. Gary/One more. Lehman/One more thing. Gary/To go along with what he says I agree I've been in the property of rentals for quite some time and when I started having parents cosign a lease I started having a lot less trouble with damage and more responsibility with rent being paid on time. And I think that not only the underage kid that not only violate the law and gets caught, he should be punished or she but I think there should be some responsibility (can't hear). Lelwnan/And obviously that's nothing we can do. OK. Gary / One thing I wanted to add to that the other thing that I think I see, you guys tell me if you agree with this or not, especially the younger guys. Lehman/You'd better step up here Gary. Gary/When these kids come in and they have the potential of being caught or they get caught I'll bet you 99 percent of them don't know what the law (can't hear) they don't even know that there really is to speak of. They just know they shouldn't do it. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of June 16, 1999. WS061699 June 16, 1999 Council Work Session Page 29 (All talking). / They know it's there. (All talking) / It's in the front page everyday. / It's a joke to most of them. Lehman/No the joke is that they don't and it's true the chances of them being caught is so slim that they're willing to take the chance, but they know what the fine is, but they don't. Champion/Right, it's part of (can't hear). (All talking). Thornberry/It's like speeding you know it' s, if they can afford the ticket, it's not that big a deal to them. It's more on the bar owners than it is on the person who creates the problem. (All talking). / It might even show that the bar owner took reasonable care to check their ID. Lehman/All fight guys, I want to thank everybody for coming if we have nothing else I think we have a better appreciation for the problem and I don't know if anybody has a solution. We are going to be looking at some things and we're going to be talking about things whether or not we do anything at all I have no idea. But I do think we have a better appreciation for some of the difficulties that I would really encourage you folks if you have an opportunity to work with Julie. Keep in contact with the council folks, we work our way through this because I don't think, at least I speak for myself, I don't think any one of us is trying to put anybody out of business, there is a tremendous amount of public pressure anti drinking fight now and of course cities have to respond to that that's why one of the reasons that you see a lot of officers downtown. That's one of reasons you see a lot of officers at 2:00, the public is not willing to accept windows being broken and people vomiting in the streets and I don't think they have to accept that and that' s one of the reasons there's a big police presence and we're faced with that too so. Thanks again. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of June 16, 1999. WS061699 June 16, 1999 Council Work Session Page 30 Thornberry/If you see me in your establishments I'm not there doing a bar check I'm there drinking, leave me alone. (All talking). This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of June 16, 1999. WS061699