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HomeMy WebLinkAbout2000-10-02 Transcription October 2, 2000 Work Session Page 1 October 2, 2000 Work Session 7:00 PM Council: Lehman, Champion, O'Donnell, Vanderhoef, Wilbum, Pfab, Kanner Staff: Atkins, Helling, Karr, Dilkes, Franklin, Matthews, O'Malley, Davidson, Winkelhake, Fowler Tapes: 00-91 SIDE ONE, 00-93 BOTH SIDES PLANNING & ZONING A. CONSIDER A MOTION SETTING A PUBLIC HEARING FOR OCTOBER 17 ON AN ORDINANCE AMENDING AN APPROVED OPDH-12 PLAN TO ALLOW A 40-UNIT ASSISTED LIVING BUILDING ON 2.87 ACRES LOCATED ON THE SOUTHEAST CORNER OF SCOTT BOULEVARD AND AMERICAN LEGION ROAD. (REZ00-00020) Franklin/The first item is to set a public hearing for October 17 on amendment to the Silvercrest Development planned development. Basically this is a change from having a rehabilitation center to a facility for Alzheimer's patients and we'll get into the detail of that the next time around. B. PUBLIC HEARING ON AN ORDINANCE CHANGING THE ZONING DESIGNATION FROM LOW DENSITY MULTI-FAMILY RESIDENTIAL (RM-12) AND NEIGHBORHOOD CONSERVATION RESIDENTIAL (RNC- 20) TO MEDIUM DENSITY SINGLE-FAMILY RESIDENTIAL (RS-8) FOR FOUR (4) PROPERTIES ON THE SOUTH SDE OF THE 900 BLOCK OF IOWA AVENUE, SEVENTEEN (17) PROPERTIES ON THE 900 AND 1000 BLOCKS OF WASHINGTON STREET, TEN (10) PROPERTIES ON THE 100 AND 200 BLOCKS OF SOUTH SUMMIT STREET, FOUR (4) PROPERTIES ON THE EAST SIDE OF THE 10 AND 100 BLOCKS OF GOVERNOR STREET, THREE (3) PROPERTIES ON THE WEST SDE OF THE 1000 BLOCK OF MUSCATINE AVENUE, AND FIVE (5) PROPERTIES ON THE 900 AND 1000 BLOCKS OF COLLEGE STREET. Franklin/The next item then is a public hearing on a rezoning, and this is a rezoning around the Summit Street College, or the Summit Street College and Washington area which is shown on the map here. The request was made by neighbors in the area to rezone this property, all of the shaded area from RM-12 to RS-8 and that's RM-12 is the low densities multi-family zone, the lowest density multi-family zone that we have, RS-8 would take it to single family and duplex. What the staff has recommended and what the Planning & Zoning Commission has This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of October 2, 2000. WS100200 October 2, 2000 Work Session Page 2 recommended is that the area basically in here and this part all of this be rezoned to RNC-12 and that this area which includes 11 properties be rezoned to the RS-8. Now the reason for that is that in this RS, in this area which is recommended for RS-8 which is consistent with the neighbors request most of the properties in there right now are of a single family character. And there would be the possibility for conversions to duplexes here, it would be more limited in terms of those conversions under the RS-8 and the RNC- 12. Lehman/Kafin that little spot between the RM-12 over to whatever direction it is there's a, keep going, what is that? Is that RS-5 now, RM-12? Franklin/No, this right in here is RNC-20 all of this on the outside. Lehman/Oh OK the RMol2 is just indicating. Franklin/This RM-12 is for fight here. Lehman/And we're recommending or we're being asked to rezone that to RNC-127 Franklin/RNC-12 here and along Washington Street, on either side of Summit as you get down to Burlington, everything that is in this area shaded. Lehman/OK. Kanner/Why do you suppose that they did not pick those spaces to rezone those white spaces to an RS-8 or RNC-12? Franklin/Because these were already multi-family of a density that wouldn't fit, I mean it was just, it was just this was already in the RNC-20 and this was RM-12 and that was what was being considered for rezoning. Champion/And that little spot. Franklin/And this spot is already developed at that higher density. I mean you wouldn't be achieving anything by including that, do you understand what I'm saying? Kanner/But from our point of view if we went to an RNC-12 or a 20 we would be achieving something by saying we wanted to keep that density that this is a good mix, that are some. Franklin/This mix will stay the same because this will continue to be the multi-family that it is fight now and whether you change it to RNC-12 or not, well first of all this was what was brought in as the request and that' s what we're going by is what This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of October 2, 2000. WSIO0200 October 2, 2000 Work Session Page 3 was requested. But in terms of including this, it's already multi-family by down zoning it to RNC-12 I'm not sure what you achieve by including those properties because it is solidly multi-family fight now. Vanderhoef/And RNC-20 would still make them nonconforming wouldn't it? Lehman/They are RNC-20. Franklin/They are RNC-20 now what their status is exactly Dee. Vanderhoef/No the white area. Franklin/The white area, if they were made RNC-12, well under the RNC designation whatever density you have when it is rezoned is the density that you may retain for that property. So it really wouldn't affect them one way or another. (All talking). Lehman/It's all grandfathered. Franklin/But I think the effort was to get at some of these properties and to where there was a mix and there was some concern at least on the part of the neighbors about the stability of this area. Because remember what we're talking about with all of this is stabilizing the area which was one reason why the staff and the Planning & Zoning Commission recommended the RNC-12 is because that stabilizes it at what you are at right now and ifthat's the goal that's what you get with the RNC- 12 and you don't make as many properties nonconforming. With RS-8 you would make more properties nonconforming. Lehman/This is similar to the Lucas/Govemor Street that we did a couple months ago? Franklin/Yes, it's very similar, very similar. Lehman/I mean it's the same concept. Franklin/The concepts are the same and it is one of those areas that we would have looked at as a consequence of council's direction to look at the older neighborhoods but the residents in the area brought it in first. Lehman/This is one of the few remaining areas isn't it? Franklin/Yes, as we're looking at the older neighborhoods, it's, I don't know that we're going to be bringing you any others for down zoning. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of October 2, 2000. WSIO0200 October 2, 2000 Work Session Page 4 Lehman/OK. Kanner/Well. Never mind. Franklin/OK. Champion/Well there' s a tremendous amount of neighborhood support for this. (All talking) Franklin/Yes, in terms of any protest that we have had on this, the protests were for the RS-8 properties when this was all being considered for RS-8 and it was for this property, this one, this one, and this one, those were the formal protests that we received. Since the, and that was a protest to rezoning to RS-8, since this has been recommended by the commission for RNC-12 we have had no protests. Champion/Yea, amazing. Lehman/Yea, OK. Kanner/Besides the idea of that comer. Franklin/This one Steven. Kanner/Being rezoned, yea in the upper fight comer, being rezoned to RS-8 and therefore being closer or matching across the street area. What are reasons that we would want to go down to the RS-8 and why not go with an RNC-12? I like the idea of RNC-12 for the whole area and I'm having some problems with the RS-8 and I need to hear some more reasoning. Franklin/OK the reason had to do, wait a second here, the reason had to do with the number of properties that could be converted to duplexes, in this area if you look at all the ones that have the dark circle, if it's RNC-12 all of those can be converted to duplexes based upon the lot requirements for RNC-12 for duplexes. Ifit's RS-8 in which you need more land to convert to a duplex there is just one so if what you are after is stability then the most change that you would have in this area would be if you went to the RNC-12 and opened that opportunity for conversion to duplexes. And I mean it's all about whether what your trying to achieve is stability here, that is keeping it at what it is now as opposed to having an opportunity for change. Champion/That is a real plus in that area to change that to RS-8. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of October 2, 2000. WSIO0200 October 2, 2000 Work Session Page 5 Franklin/Right, that was really the compelling argument that this is practically all single family now except for this one property, this would become nonconforming, the four-unit would become nonconforming under the proposed RS-8 zoning but only one property, this one could be converted to a duplex because it has sufficient lot size. Champion/Which I don't object to all it's good. Vanderhoef/Which we're looking at this also when you talk about stability we're also looking at diversity of types of housing and this is still walkable to downtown and campus and so forth that having that mix of private ownership single families mixed in with multi 's I think is a real positive kind of thing (can't hear). Franklin/Yea and that was one of the reasons for looking at the RNC-12 is because you still retain that diversity of uses over the long haul. Pfab/Karin, what is the goal, how will we know if what we are doing here works 20 years from now? If 20 years from now what will be there or what will happen? Franklin/Well the most that could potentially happen would be that in these areas fight here, well you could have a conversion to a duplex in this lot and this one, under the RNC-12 you also have the possibility for conversion on this lot, any other one that has a dot on it. Otherwise assuming the continued financial viability of the 7's, the 4's, the 6's, the 13 it will retain that mix of different kinds of housing in this spot. I mean the only thing that would make that change in terms of some of those densities going down would be the choice of the property owner to diminish the use of the property owner, it would not be the zoning, it would not be the zoning. Champion/And that has happened to a lot of those houses in that area. Franklin/There has been conversions to single family from multiples but that's been a property owner choice as opposed to a zoning policy. Pfab/OK if we could go out and sprinkle some magic dust on that what would be the best thing as a planner would look at that, what would be the best thing that could happen? Franklin/Well one of the things that we wrestled with, I think keeping the mix is the best is the best thing that can happen because of the proximity of these properties to the down. There's a desire on the part of many people to be able to live in single family houses close to the downtown and still walk downtown, there are also a This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of October 2, 2000. WSIO0200 October 2, 2000 Work Session Page 6 number of people who want to live in apartments and convened houses and be in proximity to downtown and this area gives you those choices because it is quite close. Pfab/And aside, I think I need my different glasses, I can't see the black spots on the (can't hear). Franklin/On the one you have in front of you. Pfab/Yes. Lehman/It doesn't have any. Franklin/Because you don't have them on that one. Vanderhoef/But we can put them on if you want. Pfab/Just, just. Lehman/OK. Champion/It's a good map, I like it, colored. Franklin/Anything else? Kanner/What's the zoning of the coop apartment that' s not pan of the proposal that' s on Summit Street? Keep going down. Franklin/Here. Lehman/Summit and Burlington. Kanner/Yea. Lehman/RM-44. Kanner/The one right next to it is the coop apartment. Lehman/44. Franklin/RM-44. That's right there. Kanner/Right where the star is. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of October 2, 2000. WS100200 October 2, 2000 Work Session Page 7 Franklin/Yea. Kanner/Well what is? What are the main aspects of RM-44? Franklin/That' s our highest density multi-family. Kanner/Thanks. C. PUBLIC HEARING ON AN ORDNANCE AMENDING THE NONCONFORMING USE PROVISIONS OF THE NEIGHBORHOOD CONSERVATION RESIDENTIAL, RNC-12 ZONE, TO MAKE IT CLEAR ANY EXISTING CONFORMING MULTI-FAMILY USE WOULD CONTINUE TO BE CONFORMING UNDER THE RNC-12 ZONE. Franklin/Assuming I don't lose my voice here. The next item is an ordinance amendment, basically what this is is a housekeeping matter. We found that as we were looking at the provision that dealt with the conforming nature of the multiple uses in the RNC zone that it referred to those properties that had been zoned RM- 12 and I'm sure this was because when we did the RNC-12 initially it was a conversion from RM-12 to RNC-12 as opposed to from RNC-20 to RNC-12. What this amendment does is allows you to make that policy decision without it just applying to a previous, one previous zoning category, it's whatever it was zoned before whether it's 12, 20 or 44. OK. Lehman/OK. D. CONSIDER AN ORDINANCE CONDITIONALLY AMENDING THE APPROVED SENSITIVE AREAS DEVELOPMENT PLAN FOR LOT 52 OF WALDEN HILLS, A 4.89 ACRE PROPERTY LOCATED ON THE WEST SIDE OF SHANNON DRIVE, SOUTH OF WILLOW CREEK. (REZOO-0005/SUBOO- 0016) (SECOND CONSIDERATION) Franklin/Item D is second consideration on lot 52 in Walden Hills. E. CONSIDER AN ORDINANCE DESIGNATING THE PROPERTY LOCATED AT 13 S. LINN STREET AS AN IOWA CITY HISTORIC LANDMARK. (REZOO- 0019) (SECOND CONSIDERATION) Franklin/Item E is that historic landmark designation for 13 S. Linn Street, second consideration. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of October 2, 2000. WSIO0200 October 2, 2000 Work Session Page 8 F. CONSDER A LETTER TO THE JOHNSON COUNTY BOARD OF SUPERVISORS RECOMMENDING DENIAL OF A REZONING OF 125.43 ACRES LOCATED WITHIN FRINGE AREA C EAST OF DANE ROAD AND WEST AND SOUTH OF THE LAKERIDGE MOBILE HOME PARK FROM COUNTY A1 RURAL AND RS SUBURBAN RESDENTIAL TO COUNTY RMH MANUFACTURED HOUSING RESDENTIAL. (CZ0027) Franklin/Item F your requested to defer this to October 17. The attomey for Lakeridge and I have been having discussions and we're at the point of starting to draft an agreement which is a step. G. CONSDER A RESOLUTION APPROVING THE FINAL PLAT OF WINDSOR RIDGE, PART TEN A, A RESUBDIVISION OF A PORTION OF WINDSOR RIDGE, PART TEN, A 4.90 ACRES, 8-LOT RESIDENTIAL SUBDIVISION LOCATED ON THE WEST SIDE OF HUNTINGTON DRIVE, NORTH OF BARRNGTON ROAD. (SUBOO-00019) Franklin/The next item then is the final plat of Windsor Ridge Part 10A and this is kind of peculiar, but not actually so peculiar. This was part of Windsor Ridge Part 10, and as the development started on Dryden Court which is this street fight here the developers realized that because all of this was in the final plat that they would be obligated to construct Court Street and an extension of Huntington, this part right here. At this time even though the lots that were being completed on Dryden and Arlington was completed out to Court Street that they would either have to escrow for that or pave Huntington and that extension of Court Street even though they did not intend to develop these lots at this time. So what they have done is requested is that we break this off which means that this will not be required until they wish to do these lots on Huntington. Now there is another provision of a conditional zoning agreement for the commercial property, this CN-1 that is to the east of it. When that comes in Court Street must be extended so one of two things will occur, they will proceed with these lots in which they must pave Court Street and Huntington or they will pursue the commercial development to the east here in which case they would have to pave Court but not necessarily Huntington. Well no I take that back, they would have to do Huntington too because there's a drive Up Of Huntington to the commercial so. Lehman/That's right. Franklin/So one or the other is going to happen, the commercial or these chain of lots here. So we're not concerned about breaking this off and having a circumstance in which development in the area can't proceed so it's recommended for approval. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of October 2, 2000. WS100200 October 2, 2000 Work Session Page 9 Vanderhoef/So the only thing we're holding up are single family housing not any of the multi-family? Franklin/No, that's all right over in here. Lehman/That's his choice though isn't it? Champion/Yea. Lehman/It's not ours. Franklin/Yes. And there is not another property owner in the mix here that could potentially delayed because this isn't happening, I mean we've got the same property owner throughout but this is the multiple development that we have talked about previously and we' 11 see part of this coming in fairly soon. Vanderhoef/What is in the area where the arrow happens to be? Franklin/That's the school reservation site, or yea, the reserved site for the school, I guess it's not a reservation. Pfab/Put me back to where the other map that so the school is noah of. Franklin/Right there. Pfab/It's there or is it farther to your here. Franklin/It's in this area fight in here. Pfab/So the street for the school part is already in there. Franklin/No that is not. Pfab/I mean it will be. Franklin/But there's no plans in the immediate, it's highly unlikely that a school would be built there before these lots would be put in. Pfab/So where. Franklin/This is where the school sight is reserved in here. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of October 2, 2000. WS100200 October 2, 2000 Work Session Page 10 Pfab/OK, so I thought I was following maybe I'm not. So you're saying that at this point the gray area is off the board so to speak. Franklin/It is a different final plat from Dryden Court is basically what's happening. Pfab/OK I was under the impression that Court was going to be built out to the yea, out to about there, OK so that's off now. Franklin/Not fight now. Pfab/OK, OK. Franklin/And even if they had kept it. Pfab/OK, OK, I misunderstood. Franklin/Even if they had kept it in the final plat Irvin they would have had, they wouldn't have had to built it fight away, they would have had to provided escrow which of course what enables us to go ahead and build it if we need to but I think the reality of this school being built in the next 10 years is fairly slim. Pfab/OK that's fine, I have no more further questions. Kanner/Karin those are two outlots to that have past to the CN-1 to the east and then one to the north eventually? Franklin/I'm sorry, this is CN-1 here. Kanner/On the other map you showed an outlot. Franklin/Here. Kanner/No to the right going to the east down under 193. Franklin/Here. Kanner/Yea so is that for a path to get out? Franklin/Yes. Kanner/And then you'll be able to get to the commercial area. Franklin/The commercial fight. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of October 2, 2000. WS100200 October 2, 2000 Work Session Page 11 Kanner/And then there's also one to the north to get out to Court Street, what's that space above 288 to the east of 2887 Franklin/Right there. Kanner/No to your left. Franklin/Here. Kanner/Is that a path also? A path to get up to Court Street. Franklin/I think so, I can't see it real well. Is that blurry? Champion/A little bit but (can't hear). Kanner/A little bit. Franklin/Well because that's in the other subdivision not this pan, its part 10 not 10A it's not marked on my, but I would guess Steven that that's what that is for because I can't imagine why else you'd have that break there that would allow you to get back up to here but I can check that for you. Kanner/OK so we put that in as a requirement? Franklin/Because there's also something right here. I'd have to look at the plat for Part 10 but that's not part of this approval, that's already done. Pfab/Before you came across where the arrow is now I would say that if it is a path they would have extended that, made that lot bigger just to allow for the path, it would have given the, part of that wide V-shaped to one of the lots there. Franklin/Well not necessarily what we have done sometimes is that this then becomes something that it's must more accessible ifit's not narrow like this and it's much more accessible as an open space. Larry do you remember what that is? Larry Schnittjer/It's an access to the open space, I can't recall whether the sidewalk goes all the way up (can't hear) or whether it goes all the way through (can't hear). Franklin/It may be a sidewalk but we can't recall whether it goes all the way to Court Street or not and there is to be a pond in this outlot next. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of October 2, 2000. WS100200 October 2, 2000 Work Session Page 12 Pfab/What is the thing right underneath the shaft or the arrow, fight next to the shaft or the arrow? Franklin/Well I'm going to have to look at the plat of Part 10 and this is Part 10A. Pfab/Storm sewage. Schnittjer/Yea. Franklin/OK storm sewage. Champion/Karin what we're actually voting on tomorrow night is the lot off that area? Franklin/Yes. Lehman/That's all. Champion/That's all, OK. Franklin/It's not all of this, it's this part here. Lehman/Yea, that's it. Champion/Thank you. AGENDA ITEMS Lehman/Review agenda items. Anybody have any agenda items? ITEM #12. CONSIDER AN ORDINANCE AMENDING CITY CODE TITLE 2, ENTITLED "HUMAN RIGHTS," CHAPTER 3, ENTITLED "DISCRIMINATORY PRACTICES," SECTION 2-3-2, ENTITLED PUBLIC ACCOMMODATION; EXCEPTIONS. Kanner/Well. Lehman/Yes. Kanner/Do, in Item #12 it's like the for Eleanor or perhaps Karin, but maybe more for Eleanor. We're going to change some things in the human fights ordinance. Do we have bars that offer ladies nights and things like that and how does that fit in with possible discriminatory practices? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of October 2, 2000. WS100200 October 2, 2000 Work Session Page 13 Dilkes/Well it doesn't relate to the ordinance that's in front of you. Do you understand that? Kanner/Right but I guess I'm thinking that we're talking about discounts and so forth and so that made me think of ladies nights which are also discounts that (can't hear). Dilkes/Yea there' s an Iowa Supreme decision that would find that that was discrimination. Kanner/OK and could we be responsible for prosecuting that case if we found that at a bar or restaurant? Dilkes/Well it wouldn't be a prosecution it would be a complaint process through our Human Rights Commission. Kanner/Thank you. Lehman/Other agenda items. APPOINTMENTS Lehman/OK appointment for the Animal Control Advisory Board. O'Donnell/We had one didn't we? Lehman/We had one if I remember. Vanderhoef/We had two. Lehman/Two OK, do we have discussion? Vanderhoef/I'm trying to remember names and I didn't write them down this time. Champion/I only saw one. Vanderhoef/It was one a week ago. Karr/You have two. Vanderhoef/And then one a week ago. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of October 2, 2000. WS100200 October 2, 2000 Work Session Page 14 Lehman/Marian's about to tell us who they are. Karr/You have two applications, Elizabeth Hospodarsky, she was. Lehman/Hospodarsky. Karr/OK she was the applicant that you had received earlier and then Jean Walker from Lucon Drive. Lehman/What' s your pleasure? Champion/You know I'd like to (can't hear). O'Donnell/Your 37 1 think (can't hear). Kanner/Well when I hear someone say they like to fund raise I kind of like that idea and that was the candidate Elizabeth and I think that's a very good quality to have for that position because they plan to do some of that in the upcoming years. O'Donnell/I like the idea of Jean Walker being in town for 28 years, she's retired. Champion/That's the one that I saw. O'Donnell/That's the one I have. 336. Wilburn/336. O'Donnell/The other one's last week. Champion/I don't have it. Vanderhoef/It's in here. Karr/1921 Momingside Drive was the first one. Karr/I forgot where Elizabeth works so (can't hear). O'Donnell/I'd like to nominate Jean Walker. Champion/I'll second her. Lehman/Well I think Steven you did you nominate Hospodarsky? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of October 2, 2000. WS100200 October 2, 2000 Work Session Page 15 Kanner/Sure I'll nominate her. Lehman/All right we've got both folks nominated, we'll take one at a time. How many would like Hospodarsky? I'd like to say that right too many times so let's. O'Donnell/Or once. Lehman/I said it right twice already. Those who would like Hospodarsky, four times I've said it. Vanderhoef/I would. Lehman/We've got four. Karr/Elizabeth. Lehman/Yes. O'Donnell/Where were four I only saw three? Lehman/I'm the fourth. O'Donnell/Oh your the fourth. Lehman/I can say the name. (can't hear). SIOUX AVENUE Lehman/Sioux Avenue. Atkins/You asked the (can't hear). Lehman/If I'm not mistaken this is a request that we heard at the joint meeting from at least some of the county folks asking us if we would care to share in the cost of putting calcium chloride on Sioux Avenue, is that correct? Atkins/Something like that, however, I don't know how you can share in the cost when by their own policy they're prohibited from putting any calcium chloride on the property to begin with. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of October 2, 2000. WS100200 October 2, 2000 Work Session Page 16 Lehman/Well before we get to whether or not it's legal are there four people who would like to share in the cost of doing something illegal? Kanner/Well that' s. Vanderhoef/No. Atkins/No I think so (can't hear). O'Donnell/Ernie that's probably the wrong way to say that. Atkins/Yes. Lehman/You're right. O'Donnell/We, Sioux Avenue is a very difficult thing to speak about, Sioux Avenue is I would like a traffic count if it's possible before the soccer complex we put down there. We have, and I don't know where the county arrived at 150 cars a day before they'll do calcium chloride but there's 145 seems a bit odd that we don't have 150 plus or minus, I mean we're 5 away from these people getting alleviation from what is a total wipeout out there when cars go by. But you know the question is it is a city or county road, it's county road so what's the question? Wilburn/The problem I had with the traffic count they gave us was it wasn't at the point where cars were going into the soccer complex. I mean if it can be shown that traffic is coming that way then I'd be willing to, if it's legal to go ahead and share in some way but I've been out, my daughters play soccer as I'm watching games I'm keeping an eye for people coming in that way and I just didn't you know, maybe it's the time of day when I'm out there but I don't see many cars come in so I'd like to, that's where I'd like to have the traffic count (can't hear). Vanderhoef/Well you know I have a little problem just in general with this because South Sycamore we have on capital improvement to get the rest of that road completed and there certainly are plenty of people who come into Iowa City from the county on Highway 1 and Highway 6 and use South Sycamore and we don't have any sharing with that particular road that is getting county uses as well as city uses. So I think we would be setting a precedence here that would not be good for the City of Iowa City to take in working with this road. O'Donnell/Well we're all in this together Dee and the precedence finding me another road that was relatively untraveled that we put a soccer complex that may or may not have generated traffic so that's the question, I don't know the answers to that. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of October 2, 2000. WS100200 October 2, 2000 Work Session Page 17 Vanderhoef/And people have the choice of which road they come in on. O'Donnell/That's right. Lehman/Irvin. Pfab/OK is there another, is there a good alternative that's available to everyone? Vanderhoef/Yea, certainly. (Can't hear). Pfab/Alternatives. Vanderhoef/Highway 6 and Sycamore. Pfab/OK what is the greatest exposure we could have in cost? O'Donnell/Calcium chloride is $1,300 a mile, this is approximately 2 miles long and like I said my real problems is with the county coming up with this 150 count you know if it would be 145 they would have (can't hear) I mean it's just. Champion/I have problems with the whole thing. Lehman/So do I. Vanderhoef/I do too. Champion/To be honest with you. O'Donnell/(can't hear) work here. Pfab/OK I would just ask another question. What is the potential liability to the city? Lehman/Zero to the city. Vanderhoef/Zero. Pfab/I guess we. Champion/It's liability to all of us, we, it's all coming out of the same pocket but basically (can't hear). This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of October 2, 2000. WS100200 October 2, 2000 Work Session Page 18 Pfab/No but I mean is it, is there potential for a bad accident that could be avoided for $1,3007 O'Donnell/Sure there is that's why the county should put calcium chloride on this road. Pfab/OK. Lehman/You know if we look, and I'm surprised they came to us for an amount that's as insignificant as this is. They have the liability for the road, apparently it's a very dangerous situation out there right now. If you look at what comes in on Prairie Du Chien every day of the week that we handle that comes in from the county, we don't ask the county to help us with an intersection. We look at what comes in on Benton Street, we look at what comes in on Court Street, I mean this is the way life is, we deal those things every day. They I think could reasonably be expected to deal with this, I think the total cost of 3 applications is $12,000. O'Donnell/I don't disagree with you. Lehman/I, if, unless there's someone who really thinks we should do this badly I'd go onto the next item. Pfab/I would suggest we move on to the next item. NUTRITION BOARD PARKING REQUEST (1P1 OF 9/28) Lehman/Nutrition Board Parking Request. O'Donnell/(can't hear) talk about it anymore. Lehman/I suggest Steve we should notify the county that we're not interested. OK. Nutrition Board, I think we got a letter in the packet from Steve to Nutrition, I can't say nutrition but Hospodarsky I can do great. The Nutrition Board is asking for I think about 100 parking spaces and I think Steve pointed out rather clearly that to reserve spaces for that period between 11:00 and 1:00 or 11:00 and 1:30 or whatever would require that those spaces be left empty until the 1:00 or 2:00 in the afternoon and it would cost, an annual cost of over $100,00. Atkins/That's correct. Lehman/And his answer or recommendation whatever that we can't afford to have that many parking spaces sitting empty until 2:00 in the afternoon to accommodate 100 parkers for 2 hours. Is that pretty accurate? Did I make that too simple? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of October 2, 2000. WS100200 October 2, 2000 Work Session Page 19 Champion/No. Pfab/How many, was there any contractual agreement? There was no contract. OK how many spaces did they give out when before the thing was built? Lehman/I think the tradeoff on parking for the Senior Center and for Ecumenical Towers that's all taken care of. Atkins/Keep in mind that the Senior Center have 34 spaces, not Senior Dining, Senior Center. And it has been my understanding that we are to deal with the Senior Center Commission which we intend to do, to at the very least I point that out in the memo replace what they had or design some other system and if any benefit accrues to Senior Dining so be it. But Senior Center Commission and their budget is your respon., our responsibility. Champion/I like the idea of, your idea of letting them have a similar thing as we have Park and Shop downtown. So you can go in find a space. Lehman/And bill them it. Champion/And bill them for an hour because we can not tie up that many spaces for a 7 hour period. Vanderhoef/Absolutely. Champion/To provide parking for maybe an hour, but (can't hear). Pfab/I have a suggestion, it's brilliant. Have them. Champion/Is that the first time? Pfab/Early brunch and then we wouldn't have to tie them up so long. Vanderhoef/No we need a late one. Champion/No that ramp will be full at night with night time students. Vanderhoef/No 3:00 lunch. Lehman/Steve I would agree with Connie that ifthere's some way that we can work out something like Park and Shop and bill them that might be very convenient for them and accommodate 38, well not putting an undue burden on us. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of October 2, 2000. WS100200 October 2, 2000 Work Session Page 20 Steven/Sure. I can send them a letter to that affect. Pfab/I didn't hear what you said. Vanderhoef/(can't hear) willing to pay for it. Lehman/If we would do similar to Park and Shop downtown where they could park there and have the Senior Center validate their ticket, the tickets turned in when they leave and under Park and Shop the merchant is billed for the number of hours used, we get that time, we could bill Senior Dining for the amount actual time used, they could then park wherever they wanted to, just validate the ticket and keep track of the hours. Pfab/Well what is our expectation? It's going to be full or it's going to be empty? Lehman/Well obviously we don't expect either of those. Atkins/We have budgeted that the ramp will be at a close to 85 percent capacity. Pfab/So does a 15 percent capacity, I mean theoretically so how many spaces would that be? Atkins/Oh 75. That's not much of a swing on almost a 600 car ramp. Vanderhoef/The big part of it though for me Irvin is that those spaces are most wanted by students and everyone else through that noon hour time period so if we were going to be at the maximum capacity I would think that we would be close to the capacity. Pfab/That's why I suggested early brunch. (All talking) Kanner/Steve, I've got a question for Steve and Joe. Lehman/Go ahead. Kanner/Are we planning to set aside at least 34 spaces for the Senior Center? Atkins/We have committed to the Senior Center Commission that they would basically be held harmless. They had 34 spaces at $10.00 a month or something such as that, whatever that, inexpensive. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of October 2, 2000. WSIO0200 October 2, 2000 Work Session Page 21 Kanner/$10.00 a year. Atkins/$10.00 a year, excuse me. And we have a variety of alternatives, we just simply haven't put all those together yet to take to the Commission. Linda and Joe will be doing that shortly. Kanner/And with that Irvin ifI can just continue to. Pfab/Go ahead. Kanner/And I would assume that the people who are Senior Citizen members who have those $10.00 passes would be able to use them on any other available spaces if there happen to be other spaces. Atkins/As far as I know the parking, yea, the intent, I don't know the full intent of the Senior Center Commission whether they want reserved spaces or they'd rather would have as they have now the $10.00 license to hunt you know somewhere in the ramp. Vanderhoef/There was comment in the minutes in here that they were doing away with the (can't hear). Atkins/And that's why don't leap ahead on this yet because the Commission wanted to have a sit down with Joe and Linda and work through what alternatives were available to them, quite frankly they weren't pursuing it because the ramp isn't due to open for another block of time. Kanner/I think, just a couple more questions. When you say 85 percent are you projecting that over the whole week? And if you, one would assume the weekend would be a lot lighter so then we'll be near 100 percent during the week according to projections. Atkins/Microphone Joe. Joe Fowler/85 Monday through Friday, I think it's like 50 Saturday and a little bit lower on Saturday. Kanner/OK so that is Monday through Friday. Fowler/Monday through Friday and then Saturday and we didn't project, we didn't project anything for Sunday. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of October 2, 2000. WS100200 October 2, 2000 Work Session Page 22 Kanner/Thanks Joe. The thing that I got out of this especially having worked at Senior Dining is that Senior Dining wants to be part of the discussions, 100 spaces won't work and senior diners can be members of the Senior Center and have an opportunity to buy the pass, there's no cost to join the Senior Center. I guess what I would ask is that the Senior Dining be part of the next discussion that you just mentioned, that would be my request and they are a large component of the Senior Center and have a large amount concentrated at a certain time which may bring up some special needs and I would ask that we include a representative from there. Vanderhoef/Well what I would say is first offI think our Senior Center needs to approach what their needs are and the request has been already made to the Senior Center to pick up the tab for Senior Dining kinds of things and that obviously is not going to be, they've put the request on the table and we're saying that isn't going to work so I think it's imperative that we let our Commission work with this and they'll have an opportunity to work through knowing full well that the request is still there from Senior Dining. Lehman/Well would it be fair for us, would we concur? That at this point in time we are not interested in acting favorably on a request for 100 spaces for Senior Dining? Pfab/Yes. (Other yes' s) Vanderhoef/That's correct. Lehman/The other thing Steve that I would guess would concem me, this is a brand new parking facility, we really, we guessed 85 percent. Atkins/Yea. Lehman/Until that is open and we get some sense of how usage is going to be, it's going to be extremely difficult for us to even talk about what space will or will not be available other than the Senior Center which we have a commitment to. Atkins/Yes. Champion/I just want to, while Joe is here, before he leaves, (can't hear). Lehman/You're welcome. Champion/No one thing I hope you'll consider, I'm just bringing it up, I know the ramp is not going to open for a while. But I know your also starting to think about This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of October 2, 2000. WSIO0200 October 2, 2000 Work Session Page 23 things, you should be thinking about them now anyway is that I hope there will be some way that that ramp would be more user friendly, I'd like to see like a debit card, like you could buy 50 hours of parking, I mean, you know I don't (can't hear). Atkins/Funny you should mention that Connie. Champion/Oh so that students could buy 50 hours of parking or staff could and not have to have money and not, because they don't want to buy a monthly pass because they're not there enough hours to make that useful. Atkins/OK. Fowler/We've been working. Lehman/To get into a deep discussion of this, it isn't on the agenda, before Eleanor tells me we can't talk about it talk quick Joe. Fowler/We've been working on this for months and we finally got some references from a company that we can check on other people that are doing this. We are meeting at 9:00 in the morning with a supplier so that we can find out just exactly what equipment we need to buy at this point so we don't buy equipment and then have to go back six months or a year later and try an update to do it. Champion/That's terrific. Fowler/We've got a lot of different ideas going on, I hate to throw them all out right now but we are working on it. Wilburn/Could we get a memo out to the University student government because this was a specific request that they had just to let them know that we're working on that? OK thank you. Lehman/Thanks Joe. Atkins/And tell them Connie we didn't put you up to this. ALCOHOL ISSUES (1P2 OF 9/28 PACKET) Lehman/OK alcohol issues, we've received a memorandum from Eleanor and Eleanor if you'd like to kind of lead the discussion. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of October 2, 2000. WS100200 October 2, 2000 Work Session Page 24 Dilkes/Andy you want to come up here with me I need you. Well I think what you need to do tonight is give us some direction about where you want to go from here. Let's talk first about the administrative penalties which are dealt with in the footnote in our memo. I think we've told you for a few months now that state law authorizes us to impose administrative or civil penalties which include fines, license suspension, license revocation etc. after we afford due process to the licensee for violations of the alcoholic beverages chapter in the state code which includes sales to underage persons providing alcohol or selling alcohol to underage persons knowing or having reason to know that they are under age. It also includes, it would also include violations of the provision in the code that makes it, that prohibits sale to intoxicated persons. I think we've been focusing on the underage aspect of that, this morning when Lynn Walding was at the Stepping Up meeting which I attended and which Ernie attended there was, which Andy was at, there was discussion about using the same proceeding and also looking for violations of that sale to intoxicated persons which I guess in some respects is the bigger the bigger problems. So what that would involve is it would involve setting up a procedure for hearings in front of the city council, the city council is the body that would decide whether to issue the penalty after being presented with evidence, the licensee of course would get notice of that there was going to be a hearing in front of the city council, etc. It would also involve an enforcement effort by the police department to make the case so to speak for finding that there are violations in a bar of those things, sells to intoxicated persons and sales to people under legal age. Do you have any questions about that process? Champion/Eleanor is that a formidable task for the police? Wilburn/What does that mean for the police? Champion/Yea that's what I mean. I like the idea of(can't hear). Wilburn/Does that mean more staff, does that mean money for direct observation (can't hear)? Dilkes/I think there, and RJ can comment in more detail on this, but I think there are a couple different ways of getting that evidence. One is just having officers who are not in uniform be in the bar making observations about what' s going on in there. One of the examples that Lyrm Walding used this morning was, let me back up for a minute. You can make your case that a bar owner, or a bar is selling to people under legal age without taking reasonable efforts to determine whether they're of age, not just by observing someone under age coming to the bar and buying a drink. Lynn Walding used the example when he was in the Attorney General's This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of October 2, 2000. WSIO0200 October 2, 2000 Work Session Page 25 office with a case which he was involved in which involved the bartender giving a pitcher of bar to someone, or selling a pitcher of beer to somebody who was of legal age, legal drinking age and giving them 5 glasses having no idea where the 5 glasses were going to go for instance. But those, that kind of evidence is going to have to be gathered obviously by. (END OF 00-91, SIDE TWO) Matthews/You know how old are you, how long have you been here, did anybody ask you for ID when they gave you this alcohol? And that could be asked very quickly when the person is arrested and that's not too different than what happens now except you ask additional questions. And I think you're right you ask right away because that's when you're going to get the most truthful answer in all likelihood. Pfab/Are we getting any closer to where we can get ID at the time of point of sell, individual sell? Is that legal in this state? Matthews/That's not an item that we spoke about today. Dilkes/Let me just clarify before I get to that Irvin one thing that RJ said. We would not be able to establish that there have been a sale to, an illegal sale to a minor simply by asking, simply by asking the minor that question. Now obviously if the minor answers I went to the bar and I had my underage stamp or my no underage stamp and they sold me yea that would be good evidence we could use but I think but one of the big issues we deal with underage people and why I think we would need under cover officers is that somebody of age buys the beer and provides the beer to the people who are underage so I think RJ was going to get to that third component of his enforcement effort. But in terms of requiring ID at the point of sale, I'm not sure what. Pfab/OK if I come up and I want a beer and where' s your ID now they might not ask me but somebody they can be sure that person was of age when they sold it. Dilkes/Well I think most bars put a stamp, I mean they can, that' s not what the major issue is as I understand it is they can see who the person they're selling to is of legal age but then that beer gets distributed to underage people in the bar. Winkelhake/The third thing we were talking about was the fact the undercover, what that would entail is having somebody that was under the age of 21 going into a bar and then observing whether it was being sold to, whether they're being asked when someone comes up and brings a pitcher of beer. We have occasions where, at the present time we've had where a supervisor was in a bar and everybody's going up This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of October 2, 2000. WSIO0200 October 2, 2000 Work Session Page 26 to the bar simply handing pitchers out bar keep takes it over the crowd, fills it up, hands it back. That's the kind of observation that Eleanor's talking about but in addition to that bring people in and have an undercover officer watching what' s going on when the sale is made and then follow up on that, that gets you closer to the proof that you need to be able to deal with some of these issues. The way that we would do that would be incorporation with other police departments quite frankly because too many of our people are known downtown where we would have to have other departments come in and assist us and then we would assist them on some other kind of operation they may have. Nothing that we've talked about can't be done, a lot of it is already done with the exception of asking a couple more questions. Lehman/Steven. Kanne~ I've got a couple questions. I believe Andy when you made a presentation about this a few weeks ago you talked about the possibility of using other than police officers to observe. Is that in part of the consideration training people as observers that aren't police officers? Matthews/I really haven't had any discussion at length about that, I'm assuming there's always a possibility we can do that. My preference is you're going to have to testify, I personally would prefer a police officer too. Winkelhake/If I could respond to that. There would be no reason why you could not, however, we already have trained officers who are used to professionally making observations or used to testifying as to those observations and it would be much simpler just to utilize police staff then going about training new individuals as to the appropriate techniques. Lehman/I also believe there's reason to assume that the university police would cooperate with us to a great degree if we wish to do some of these things. Winkelhake/I would think that we would receive cooperation from Coralville and the University Department of Public Safety and we may be able to gather some cooperation from the state patrol as well. Champion/So you don't think this would be a task that would be very difficult for the police to deal with? Winkelhake/Not really, it's something that can be done, it's a little different approach because your talking about an administrative penalty before the frustrating part always came in from dealing with the criminal aspect of it. I applaud you for the This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of October 2, 2000. WS100200 October 2, 2000 Work Session Page 27 fact that your willing to take this task on, this is the first council I think that wanted to do that. Champion/Is the burden of proof, it's not as high or maybe Eleanor needs to answer that in our civil (can't hear)? Dilkes/No, the burden of proof is, I think it's preponderance of the evidence in this, yea, it's beyond a reasonable doubt in the criminal case. Also the other very important thing is the rules of evidence don't apply in civil proceedings as they do in criminal proceedings. For instance, the police officer who asks the intoxicated person where they've been drinking and for how long can testify to that and you won't get a here say objection simply because you don't have the intoxicated person testifying. Kanner/Would you? Vanderhoef/I was going to ask RJ a question. How do you think this will affect your staffing and your budget and so forth for this increased patrol within the bars? Winkelhake/What we usually try to do is find some grant money to help us out on some of these issues and to be able to tell you it's going to be a $10,000 or $20,000 I don't think so because we already expend quite a bit of money in the downtown area. Two of these kind of things are simply asking additional questions and putting it down on paper, that I don't think should cost anything because we already put people downtown. The undercover one may cost us something because I'm going to have to talk to other agencies about the use of their officers somewhere along the way I have to reciprocate, reciprocate to them by putting another officer out for them somewhere. Vanderhoef/Well it strikes me just without any facts or figures what we are paying right now in cleanup in our downtown and some of these other things, it might be money well spent to enforce the law. Winkelhake/I have no idea how those two will equate. Vanderhoef/I don't either. Winkelhake/Somewhere in the future we might be able to pinpoint that but at this point I'd be hesitant to say that if we do this we're going to save money somewhere else. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of October 2, 2000. WSIO0200 October 2, 2000 Work Session Page 28 Champion/RJ do you have any idea how many calls you get downtown that deal with intoxication versus other calls you get from downtown just off the top of your head? Winkelhake/No most of the calls downtown don't start with intoxication, it's usually some other negative that's called attention and then they call somebody will call in. Most of the intoxication arrests that are made downtown quite different than some people would like you to believe. It's basically caused by the individual bring negative attention to their actions and getting a police officer involved in it and for every person that we arrest for public intox. there are probably anywhere from 30 to 50 that are not arrested on that same time. Pfab/What is the, how do you determine what the suit is going to amount to? How much do you sue for? Dilkes/How much do you sue for? Pfab/Yea in other words (can't hear). Matthews/The fine is. Pfab/Is it a fine? Dilkes/The state code provides for a graduation of penalties, when it's. Pfab/Is it determined, what determines the progression or the changes? Dilkes/Well the state code determines, and correct me if I'm wrong Andy, but it's, ifit's an underage sale it's $300.00 for the first infraction. Matthews/They graduate. Dilkes/And then they graduate up to suspension, revocation, etc. But the sale to intoxicated person I believe we have more discretion and the initial penalty is higher. Pfab/Is higher? Dilkes/Yea. Pfab/And how, can you give me an idea of how you know first, second, third, what is the rate of progression? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of October 2, 2000. WS100200 October 2, 2000 Work Session Page 29 Dilkes/The rate of progression. Pfab/In other words is it $300.00 for one, first time, second time, how much? Third time. Dilkes/Well I think it's $300.00 and then you can go to the other penalties such as suspension and revocation. Pfab/OK so it's $300.00 for (can't hear). Dilkes/$300.00 is the first one, and we're talking about the civil penalty. Pfab/OK. So in other, so a person can gamble on since it's $300.00 it's part of the cost of doing business. Matthews/If I may Irvin, a lot of it depends on the nature of the offense as well, there are certain graduated penalties. Pfab/That's what I'm trying to point out. Matthews/(Can't hear) code and also under civil the civil administrative penalties, there are also additional options leading all the way to suspension and revocation and you have to fit it within the code section of the action that's alleged to be a violation. Pfab/OK but can you give me any idea, OK the first time, is there a second time, is there a third time? Does it? Matthews/There are graduated penalties depending on the nature of the offense, in certain cases the graduated penalties go $3,4, and $500.00 and in some cases after the first one it can go fight up to license suspension and if it's necessary the license revocation, it depends on the nature of the offense and how the state code deals with it. Dilkes/Obviously the object here is that ifthere's a threat to the license, I mean that's what your trying to get at. And I wanted to raise a point about the resource issue that I thought was made pretty well this morning at the Stepping Up meeting is that the concentration on issuance of PAULA or possession of alcohol under legal age citations you will be doing that year after year after year as the student population changes, I mean hopefully I mean the goal would be of the administrative penalty is to change the what's happening in the bars and maybe have some more permanent affect on the situation down there, that's the goal, that's the idea. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of October 2, 2000. WS100200 October 2, 2000 Work Session Page 30 Kanner/I have a question for you Eleanor and then for RJ. For the cigarette cases that's we're considering the underage purchases of tobacco you recommend that the county prosecute these cases. Are you recommending that you would most likely represent the city, are you recommending in these cases that the county also prosecute or not prosecute but bring this case before us for a heating (can't hear). Dilkes/No that's not been the discussion, I think the tobacco thing evolved because Pat White made the initial proposal to do that and the statutory structure I think for tobacco and alcohol is a little different. Maybe Andy can address that better than I. Matthews/No I think they're somewhat different but I think essentially we're going in alternate direction with respect to tobacco is simply because the county attorney' s office volunteered to undertake that and there was a certain attractiveness to it and so we could maintain that separation of function between city attorney offering legal advice to the counsel and not also acting as prosecutor. With hearings in the alcohol area there' s a number of methods you could do if you could use existing legal staff, you could take the approach that Cedar Rapids uses, Cedar Rapids uses an approach where police staff actually present those violations to council and that in fact then also permits the city attorney to act in his or her traditional role in advising council. The approach used in Cedar Rapids is a fairly streamlined approach but it still affords due process to the bar or the establishment. Of course it will involve a commitment of council time but I think the goal here as Eleanor indicated is to try to change the behavior at the bars themselves to make them more self policing and more effective their effort is the less time you'll have to spend at those hearings. Pfab/If this. Kanner/Well I had a question for RJ, if you have one for Andy go ahead. Pfab/OK, all right, If we decide to go this route what is the time frame involved to get started and when will the first undercover person be in the bar? Matthews/That's probably more appropriate for RJ. Winkelhake/I think there are some things we need to work out just to make sure we have the procedures down so that we meet all the requirements that are necessary and as far as giving you a date with the press in the back I don't think I'd do that except it would be done fairly quickly. Pfab/Like months, weeks, years. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of October 2, 2000. WS100200 October 2, 2000 Work Session Page 31 Dilkes/Let me address the timing a little bit, we have to put a process in place, that may involve some enabling legislation, an ordinance to say OK we have the authority to adopt administrative rules to implement this so there's going to be some other stuff that's going to have to come back to you for approval. I think the other thing we have to work through, the police department and my department is the issue of where are we going to focus our efforts? What kind of evidence are we going to require, or how many instances are we going to require before we're going to give notice to the bar that there's going to be a proceeding before council for a civil penalty and those are things that we're going to have to work out. You only have as Marian pointed out to me earlier three more meetings before your December meetings so I think the likelihood that we're going to have all that in place this fall is probably slim, I think the best I can say is we'll devote the time to it we need to and get it back to you as soon as we can. Lehman/Steven, I'm sorry. Matthews/Also in all fairness to the establishments in question certainly they should be provided with what guidelines are focused the council, we'll be undertaking and be prepared for it prior to implementation of any of those procedures. Pfab/Is it possible any of those could run concurrently? Matthews/Which ones? Lehman/What? Pfab/In other words, I, this alcohol problem is getting really monotonous and anything something has to be done. Dilkes/Well I can certainly appreciate that but you have to remember that although the Lynn Walding today you know sort of told us that he'd get support from us when it goes up from you to on appeal to them. There's also an appeal after that that point to district court and I don't want to go into this thing without our ducks in a row and lined up to know that we can sustain the imposition of an administrative penalty through a court proceeding so I appreciate, I mean we just have to balance those two things and. Lehman/Steven. Kanner/This is RJ and to the council, I read Andy's memo about the video (can't hear) underage drinking and it was in our packages and one of the points they made which is what we're talking about is limitations on access and so along the lines This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of October 2, 2000. WSIO0200 October 2, 2000 Work Session Page 32 of what we're considering tonight I also want to put to the council and to RJ the sting similar to the alcohol to the underage tobacco purchase stings in retail stores that was mentioned and they said that was fairly effective and maybe we can get some facts and figures on what kind of problem that might be in Iowa City and. Champion/I understand, what are you suggesting Steven I missed part? Kanner/I'm suggesting that similar to the stings that are done with the underage tobacco purchases where someone is sent in that's obviously underage and has an underage ID and is able to purchase tobacco and then they're fined and there's penalties criminal and civil penalties brought against them that we do a similar action for places that sell alcohol. Champion/I think they already do that. Atkins/I don't think we do stings. Champion/No. Lehman/We don't do stings now do we R J? Winkelhake/We have in the past. Lehman/Have we recently? Winkelhake/And we have the arrangements made to have individuals that will do it again, in fact we have some guidelines that we have in place that I talked with the county attorney about if we were looking at a criminal end of it and then for Eleanor if we're going to be looking at the administrative end, they're very similar. We have done that in the past and we are going to do that in the future, we have that in, working on it fight now. Kanner/One of the main things then to look at then is the civil end of it and I guess that would come from our direction if we want to pursue that also and I would suggest that we should pursue that and see what the problems are, we want to see what the facts are and then say if it's a problem we want to pursue it on both ends civil and criminally. Winkelhake/Your willingness to take this task on is different and I'm certainly glad that your willing to because I think you can have an impact, a very large impact because we arrest somebody for underage drinking we're not making much of a difference down there except for arresting more and until your doing something that has an impact on a license all we're doing is arresting people. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of October 2, 2000. WSIO0200 October 2, 2000 Work Session Page 33 Lehman/Well the frustrating thing from at least my position is that there seems to be at least in the past so little that we could do except we fine the, if we caught them the underage drinker, we fine the person for public intox., there seem to be little or no recourse against the folks who provided which is kind of a key word, provided the alcohol and now this appears to me to be an opportunity where we can require some responsibility on the part of the bar owners who either sell or provide the alcohol to underage and/or intoxicated people. Is that correct Eleanor? Now before you say we did a great job RJ does the council support looking into this? Champions' Oh yes. Pfab/Oh yes. Lehman/Working up a plan. Vanderhoef/Absolutely. Lehman/And moving forward with it. Pfab/I believe this will change when the attitude changes and I believe that this whole alcohol problem can be solved in a matter of a couple of months once it's determined we will not back down. It's a matter of will I believe. Matthews/Just so we go into this with eyes wide open you know, what we see at our level is just a start, there will be appealed to the state for administrative law judge, and there are appeals to the district court so this is step 1 and what arguably could be a long process and I think remembering back to many years ago when council was wrestling with, a different council of course was wrestling with some of these issues the council group frustrated at those appeal provisions and the time periods that that took but if we go into it with our eyes wide open if we have the procedures down pact, if we're comfortable that they can withstand judicial scrutiny and if we're aware that you know ultimately it may take some time to resolve before we start seeing some real action on the part of the establishments then I think it can still be quite effective. Champion/But even if the appeal process is lengthy, it also is going to cost the bar owner a lot of money and time to pursue that, I mean that could even be a detriment. Lehman/Exactly. O'Donnell/It could. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of October 2, 2000. WS100200 October 2, 2000 Work Session Page 34 Champion/Penalized or not. Pfab/I don't expect that we have a 1,000 percent success ratio but I do expect that we do start at it and I believe the Chinese have a way of saying it, they say every journey starts by putting one foot ahead of the other and I want to get that first foot moving. Lehman/Well would it be fair for us to tell our attorney's office that we would like her to get together with the police department, work with, I do believe I mean and I agree with you Irvin I would like to see it start as soon as possible but more importantly we have to do it fight. O'Donnell/Well you'd better be headed in the right direction. Lehman/Yes. O'Donnell/I mean I don't think we've set a (can't hear). Lehman/No but they I believe can set that part (can't hear). O'Donnell/We need, we need, you know we're talking about banning drink specials, I don't know if we all agree with that. Lehman/We haven't gotten to that yet. O'Donnell/No no no and I know that but I mean that's what I mean we're going to have to sit down and decide the direction we're headed before we. Lehman/Well I don't. Champion/This is an easy thing to decide. Lehman/This is something we can do under present law that we have never done, it's available to us, it has worked apparently, Cedar Falls I think he talked and told us about one place that apparently lost their license over it. I mean this, and he told us today if there are enough violations against bars that it can make a difference when it comes time to renewal. Ames for example had one bar with 12 PAULA's, I believe it was 12, they gave the guy a 6 month license and that was upheld by administrative judge, the guy got a 6 month license, now that is an incredible penalty for a huge bar. I think it will get their attention. Dilkes/OK but I can't let that go by without commenting because there' s always a misunderstanding about we just count up with the number of PAULA's and then This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of October 2, 2000. WS100200 October 2, 2000 Work Session Page 35 we proceed with the administrative penalty. In Ames they have a law that says that you know anyone under 21 leaves after 9:00. Lehman/Right. Dilkes/So that's a very different situation. Vanderhoef/But there was one. O'Donnell/Well shoot and that's a big part of this (can't hear). Kanner/Will people from your office have to go to Des Moines for the appeals that might happen to represent the city? Dilkes/Yes. Kanned I think with this proposal we need to get an estimate of the cost of what it's going to take, it's going to be putting a burden, it sounds like somewhat substantial burden on the city attorney's office and somewhat on the police departments. Pfab/I have a question to ask, a substantial burden compared to what? Kanner/Well. Pfab/What we have now? Kanner/Well you bring a good point and that should go into the mixture, we should weight what we hope to save in other type of destructive behavior, prevention is usually if we could put this in a preventive mode your going to save money. Pfab/And like I said I don't expect perfection, I expect action. You know even if it is, everything isn't perfect the first shot you take you can always adjust it. Dilkes/I expect perfection though Irvin. Lehman/Well would it be fair to start moving in that direction? I mean I think that we, I sense that this is something that we probably should have been doing before now, obviously this is going to require a fair amount of effort on the part of the city attorney's staff working with RJ to come up with some sort of a program that you could present to us and we'll say yea or nea. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of October 2, 2000. WS100200 October 2, 2000 Work Session Page 36 Dilkes/Yea I think that you can say that it will take a good amount of time from my office and from RJ's office in getting this coordinated, in terms of the amount of time that we spend on council issues so you just have to keep that in mind. Lehman/Irregardless of what we may be discussing do we want to pursue with this? Pfab/Absolutely. Vanderhoef/Yes. Kanner/I would like to put in the addendum that we also look at retail stores. Champion/We already do that, it's already in the (can't hear). Kanner/Well it, we don't look at the civil. Lehman/I think the same rules would apply to any sales wouldn't it Eleanor? We pick up someone for public intox. Dilkes/Yea you could use the same, you could use same structure for (can't hear). Lehman/(can't hear) alcohol at a Quik Trip or a grocery store. Kanner/It seems that there are civil penalties that. Champion/But there would be. Kanner/But we're not enforcing it. Lehman/That' s what we're talking about doing. Kanner/Well I'm saying are we doing, are we asking to put those resources into sales to minors at retail stores? Lehman/I think we'd have a real problem if we didn't enforce the law equally. Kanner/No I just want to make sure that it's clear that we're looking into that too, it's something we haven't done in the past and we're going to be more stringent on that now. O'Donnell/It's all liquor license holders as well. Kanner/All right. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of October 2, 2000. WS100200 October 2, 2000 Work Session Page 37 Lehman/All fight, no, I think that's. Kanner/So we're looking at all liquor license holders (can't hear). Dilkes/That's what I understand. Lehman/You have a go ahead with that. Dilkes/OK. Lehman/Now in your memo to us you indicated that you felt there may be some possibility that we could enact an ordinance that would prohibit at least some sort of drink specials. Dilkes/OK I want to, I want to clarify something particularly since the press wasn't at the Stepping Up meeting this meeting. There was an article in the Press Citizen relaying an interview with Lynn Walding, the Director of Alcohol Beverages Division suggesting that we would not be able to regulate specials and that would be inconsistent with state law. I asked him about that this morning and asked him if he had been misquoted and if he wasn't what the inconsistency was because we didn't see it. And he said that no he wasn't misquoted but he thinks he was wrong. Lehman/Right. Dilkes/So and I really appreciated that that was very up front you know. Lehman/(can't hear) you said you were right. Dilkes/He's a new director of that division and he's in a new job so and he had talked to his deputy Judy Streb who handles the licensing stuff on the way down so that was a change from him. So yes I think that we can do that regulation at the city level, I don't know if Ernie if you want to talk about what this discussion was at the Stepping Up thing today about the potential for legislation at the state level. Lehman/Oh, I think the fact that they asked me specifically if, which we would prefer a local ordinance that would prohibit specials or a state law well obviously from at least my perspective I would much rather enforce a state law than have to answer to why we made an ordinance locally and then have to enforce that when other communities like ourselves or even adjacent to us wouldn't have to. But it seems there is some interest in the Stepping Up folks are going to be providing Lynn with some information of to the kinds of things they would like to see in an This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of October 2, 2000. WS100200 October 2, 2000 Work Session Page 38 ordinance that would prohibit specials. And I think the specials that were referred to today that I heard obviously all you can drink, or unlimited consumption specials, even two for one specials. Some exclusions, for example for hotels that might have a bottle of wine or a drink with your meal included in your, I mean there are exclusions that would protect some places. Dilkes/I think the approach or Lynn Walding's approach anyway will be to allow reasonable specials not to outlaw them completely. Lehman/Right. Pfab/I think what we should focus on is results not how we get there, I mean we want, we do not want to have a lot of people getting in trouble because they are intoxicated because they were continually given or sold alcohol when they should not have been. And if we can put that, we look at the results and we want that to stop, how the bars get to that I don't care but I just want results at the end that if they are going to do it they will pay. Champion/But when are they going to decide that at their (can't hear) approach that at all? (can't hear). Pfab/I don't care how they do it (can't hear). Dilkes/I think Lynn Walding told us that he was going to discuss it at the commission meeting, the next commission meeting. Champion/Is that would be state law, or would it be decided by the commission? Dilkes/No they would have to have authorization by state law. Champion/Well it would be, this little thing from Stepping Up is you can approximately buy a gallon of beer downtown for $4.00, I mean water outside is $21.19 per gallon. You can't afford not to drink in Iowa City. Lehman/Well I think the question is. Champion/Exploring the possibility. Lehman/Exploring the possibility of prohibiting drink specials in Iowa City. Vanderhoef/Yes. Pfab/I would be against it if we proceed post haste with this. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of October 2, 2000. WS100200 October 2, 2000 Work Session Page 39 Champion/So would I. Lehman/I don't think we could go post haste with anything. Pfab/Well but I would rather, then I would rather rifle in at the idea that if you do things your not suppose to, and results that a retail establishment ends up with the people intoxicated coming out the door or whatever the problem is if they'll put a stop to it we don't care how they do it how they run their business but we just don't want drunks coming out and that's where they got drunk. Dilkes/Are you saying you would prefer a focus on the administrative penalties is that? Pfab/I would focus 100 percent and it's results we want and I think they should run their business as they see it, we just want them to run it so the public safety and welfare of this community is taken care of and how they do it I don't think I have any interest in telling them how to do it. Kanner/Eleanor in your memo with Andy you said the case law suggested higher prices do not necessarily result in decreased consumption of liquor and then you said cannot find any case law which would support the contention of lower prices do not lead to increased consumption in the intended health, welfare and moral issues associated with increased drinking. And you said council would have to establish or make appropriate findings that such specials result in increased consumption and identify or articulate the result in problems associated with such increased consumption's. Could you talk to that and how we would have to go about doing that. Dilkes/I think it would just have to be clear in your whereas clauses and in your discussions that that was your objective is to address over consumption. I don't think that that would be difficult, I think it would just have to be done, I mean I think you've already got a good start on a legislative record here that says what your interest is is in preventing over consumption. Champion/The only thing I want to bring to all of our attention is I did get a call from the student senate today that they are doing a student survey, ideas to help curve this over consumption or drinking problem going on downtown and that we did say at one time that we wouldn't make any decisions about the bars until we met with them, I think the decision we're making about the civil penalties has something to do with the decisions about the bar but maybe before we decide on drink specials we ought to be heating from the students and what ideas they've also come up with. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of October 2, 2000. WSIO0200 October 2, 2000 Work Session Page 40 Pfab/As long as it doesn't interfere with the process of going for civil (can't hear). Champion/No it wouldn't. Lehman/Well Connie I think that the for me the appropriate procedure would be if we were to consider drink specials or in eliminating them we obviously would have to have a public hearing and I think that's the point where we would invite all of the public, students and everyone to comment on it. But unless we have something to comment on, you know if we talk about the drinking problem, it's just a problem out there. If we specifically have ideas in mind I think it's much easier to discuss them, it's much easier for the students or anybody else, the bar owners or anybody else to address these specific remedy that we are considering. Now I, yea, but everything that I've seen when it comes to overindulgence of alcohol there's two key things, convenience and cost. And I can't imagine that when we have a bar that runs all you can drink for $5.00 that that doesn't contribute to overindulgence. Champion/It might not at our age. Lehman/Connie do you see me downtown late or early morning? Champion/But I think it does when you're talking about the population that we're talking about. Lehman/I really think we should pursue. Vanderhoef/I certainly would like to have. O'Donnell/I think it would be so difficult to enforce that. Pfab/Yea I think it's. O'Donnell/You know and I'm all, it's like we're trying to do everything we can before we go to this 21 where you have to be 21 to get into a bar. Champion/Well I think we're trying to avoid that. O'Donnell/Well, and I, yes, but can we? Vanderhoef/I think when (can't hear). O'Donnell/Excuse me go ahead. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of October 2, 2000. WSIO0200 October 2, 2000 Work Session Page 41 Vanderhoef/I think what Ernie's idea that unless we have something to respond to or to talk about, until we have a possible ordinance to look at and get public input on it we'll never answer this question whether it's something our community wants or doesn't want. I for one would like to see an ordinance for us to respond to and have a public hearing. Dilkes/I agree that it's, your going to have some, an ordinance in place for people to comment on, there's a lot of different ways of going about that, regulation and a lot of different permutations of it so I think it's going to be hard just to say we're having a public hearing on the regulation of drink specials so. Wilburn/A nice example was that meeting we had with the bar owners if you walked out of that feeling that you know I mean it was all over the place and several comments people, concerns people had were things that just really weren't the case so. Pfab/I think that when they walked out of here well business as usual. Lehman/Well I think we did hear from at least some of them that they really don't like specials, they feel that they have to have specials to compete and they flat told us we will not change our method of operation until you change the law that makes us all do the same thing, they told us that. Wilburn/All I'm saying is that if you have something for people to look at it can help guide the conversation better (can't hear). Kanner/I don't think we need, I'm sorry. Wilburn/Go ahead. Kanner/I don't think we need a specific ordinance, I think we should move ahead and we should have a public hearing on all these issues including the civil penalties and because we said we would bring it to the whole community to have this discussion and I think we should following through on that. At the same time move forward on these issues saying that. Lehman/What are we going to talk about at the public hearing? Kanner/We're going to talk about the administration of civil penalties, we're going to talk about possible drink special limitations, we're going to talk about possible minimum prices, and we're going to talk about the third one, what was the third one? Eliminating out of sight, those are the main things, plus whatever anyone This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of October 2, 2000. WS100200 October 2, 2000 Work Session Page 42 else wants to bring up that they think might address the problem of over dtinking and underage dtinking. Champion/So you're talking more of a town meeting then than a heating, a hearing would be on a proposed one. Lehman/On a proposal. Champion/A town meeting would be just to anybody could come and speak their mind. Karmer/Yea I think that' s what we had in mind. Vanderhoef/They can do that tight now. Kanner/Well I think t hat' s what we had in mind when we set it up that we were going to have that town meeting and I expect that in all likelihood we'll move towards these things we're talking about tonight and have a heating on them also. But I think we should have a town meeting, I think it's good you brought it up and reminded us and make sure that we (can't hear). Champion/I'm probably willing to do that but I want to move forward with the civil penalty things. Vanderhoef/I can do a town meeting, however to keep the focus on what is and isn't possible at a town meeting, my experience with some of these things is people come and talk off the top of their head and state things as if they were so without any true information so what I would like to have available is exactly what is legal, what we can do, what this ordinance could look like and there might be several pieces to this ordinance which is what I'm heating Eleanor say there's many ways we can put it together and as they research it they'll find out what may or may not. Dilkes/Just let me give you a couple of examples that were talked about earlier today at the Stepping Up meeting. There's legislation about whether you have to provide food, there's legislation about how long the happy hour can go on, I mean there's a lot of ways to write this thing and you can see very different reactions from the public to something that says you can have a one hour happy hour into something that says you can have a 6 hour happy hour so. Vanderhoef/And there was something in one of those laws in one of the states was that you could have specials but the special had to run for the whole 24 hours. Dilkes/Yea. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of October 2, 2000. WS100200 October 2, 2000 Work Session Page 43 Lehman/Happy Day. Vanderhoef/One special a week, so I want something for the public to respond to as what is possible and so we can dispense with any of that other I think we could this and I think we could do with that, I think that's wasting their time and our time. Winkelhake/As police chief I would certainly encourage you to take a real hard look at this particular issue because I think it is one that can have an impact, and you talk about what the ordinance may look like, obviously as it, as Eleanor would be drafting it we would be taking a look at what can we really enforce and how can we do that to make sure the ordinance is something that is simply on paper but in reality we can't do much with. So that would, I'm assuming that's going to happen that we'll be working together at that but this is something I think that could have a dramatic impact in the downtown area and I certainly encourage you all to really take a hard look at that, of course the decision is yours but I would encourage you to take a look at. Lehman/But I think who knows more about it than the folks who are down enforcing the rules. I believe if we're going to have a public meeting we need something to talk about. Champion/Agree. Vanderhoef/Absolutely. Champion/You read my mind. Lehman/I think that drink special. Vanderhoef/Thank you, we now have four. Lehman/Is a good start and heaven knows if we have a hearing there's nothing to say that the ordinance as proposed could not be changed here there or somewhere else but we need something to talk about. Dilkes/Just as a footnote too, the violation of that local ordinance I think could also lead to the simple imposition of a simple penalty. Lehman/I think we need to let, you know we've been talking about this for well over a year. Champion/Right. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of October 2, 2000. WS100200 October 2, 2000 Work Session Page 44 Lehman/In fact a lot longer than that. I think the public is kind of expecting us to do something, we've got your report Eleanor and now the civil penalties have been available to us apparently for some time, I mean it's kind of new to us but I think we should go forward with that but I also think there's some expectation on the part of the public that we're going to do something other than batter gums and we've been told that we can do an ordinance that would prohibit drink specials and I think we should do it. Vanderhoef/OK let's go. Lehman/I just, who doesn't think we should do it? Pfab/I think it's time to quit talking and do something. Lehman/All right that' s. Champion/What was the third thing? Dilkes/There's four for the drink specials. Lehman/Well there's at least four there may be seven. Is there anybody who doesn't want us to do a drink special before I put? Pfab/I think it's a waste of time. Lehman/Irvin doesn't want us to prohibit drink specials. Is there anybody else that doesn't? Pfab/I think proceed with the other and concentrate our efforts there and look for results and I think the less we interfere with the bar owners as long as the results are good, we have a peaceful safe place how they get there that's their business. Lehman/We haven't interfered with them to date and you can (can't hear). Pfab/Oh I can see and they have no fear, and up till now they have no fear that we will. Lehman/That' s a go. Is there anything else we want to talk about? Champion/We talked about the out of sight issues. Lehman/Alcohol issues. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of October 2, 2000. WS100200 October 2, 2000 Work Session Page 45 Dilkes/What about the out of sight? Champion/I think that' s a. O'Donnell/That's a must. Vanderhoef/That's a must. Lehman/All right you've got a go there. Kanner/How would that work? Champion/You can't go to the bar and get three dtinks and take them to your friends. Lehman/I think we'll have to wait and see what, how the ordinance comes out and then we can critique it and just see how it works because I'm not sure how it works either, I'd like to see it. O'Donnell/It's a one person who goes up and gets one pitcher with 28 glasses, gives you a pretty good idea they're not going to drink alone. Lehman/Probably. Vanderhoef/28 glasses nobody can get drunk on that. Lehman/Or 23 straws. O'Donnell/Depends on how big they are Dee. Dilkes/They're very sanitary. Lehman/All right. Kanner/Well I think though we do need to talk about a town meeting then. Lehman/Well no the town meeting is going, when we have a public heating on the proposals that will be coming from the city attomey's office, there's obviously a time when the public can speak to any alcohol issue they want to and will because she will, won't let me stop them when they talk about something as long as it's alcohol related it's going to be relative to the public heating. But at least there' s going to be something to shoot at whether your a bar owner, an underage drinker or an alcoholic, or a tea totaller, at least you'll have something that you can pick up and read and say I agree or I don't agree. I think you need that. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of October 2, 2000. WS100200 October 2, 2000 Work Session Page 46 Wilburn/It'll help friend the discussion. Lehman/Absolutely. Matthews/If I can, if memory serves me right when we last had that discussion and promised that there would be an opportunity for student and other input at that time the focus wasn't at the 21 ordinance and the concern the student population raised on having some input as to that so you did at that time have a particular focus that you had indicated would be the basis for town meeting or public heating similar to that having some (can't hear) or drafts of ordinances would again provide some focus for the student and other population to address and provide some feedback. Lehman/OK. Champion/Great, that's great. Lehman/OK. We're going to take 5. SMOKE FREE RESTAURANTS (CONSENT CALENDAR #4G(1)) Lehman/OK the next item on the work session is smoke free restaurants, Eleanor. Dilkes/I've reviewed the ordinance, not in a lot of detail and not in enough detail to give you enough conclusions about whether I think we can do it or not. I think what needs to happen is you all need to establish a policy position as to whether this is something that you want to pursue and then my office is going to have to look at the issues. I think there are some definitional issues, such as the definition of restaurant and we have that defined in other areas in our code etc. I think there' s a major preemption issue as to whether this is consistent with state law that I'm going to have to satisfy myself about before I can recommend that you can proceed. So there's not a whole lot more I can tell you at this point. Lehman/I just have a question for you, I understand this has been done in some jurisdictions where they have not prohibited smoking in a restaurant but have required restaurants that allow smoking put up warning signs and even signs to the point of prohibiting people under the age of 16 in the restaurant. That's a pretty blank scare I've got from you. Dilkes/I don't, is that a question? Lehman/Yea, I mean I understand that that has been done. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of October 2, 2000. WS100200 October 2, 2000 Work Session Page 47 Dilkes/OK. Lehman/Well I mean, if, well first of all are there four or more of us who wish to proceed the smoke free ordinance for restaurant in Iowa City? I see seven. Dilkes/OK. Lehman/Should you find that that you feel that is not something that is permissible under or you feel it isn't would we be interested in something as I've just described where we can't prohibit smoking then we can require you know a skull and cross bones on the front door, or a skeleton and a sign that prohibits people under 16 to be in the restaurant. Pfab/My concern that any worker in the place like that does not have to work in a smoke. Lehman/Well that's something she'll have to determine. Pfab/No but I mean as long as it gets that. (END OF 00-93 SIDE TWO) Champion/I need the answer to our first question before I can make that determination. Lehman/All right you've got, go for it. Dilkes/I mean when we go through the preemption analysis with this we're going to be able to tell you what we think about other (can't hear). Champion/I mean I don't know how many ordinances we can make that affect people's personal property but how can you not be against non smoking restaurants? Lehman/Obviously seven of us can't so run with it. Dilkes/OK now I have a question for you, alcohol first or smoking in restaurants.'? Pfab/Alcohol. Dilkes/Because I think it's going to be in terms of the resources in my office we need to do them not at the same time. Lehman/I do believe that the alcohol issue is a more immediate problem. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of October 2, 2000. WS100200 October 2, 2000 Work Session Page 48 Champion/Yea I do too. Lehman/Not that it's any less but it's more immediate I believe. Champion/And I do believe some of the nonsmoking is already being taken care of by restaurant owners, there's more and more (can't hear). Dilkes/Well we'll get to them as soon as we can I just didn't want to have to be doing them at the same time because I don't think I have those resources. Lehman/All fight. Vanderhoef/There were just a couple of things that as I looked at this sample ordinance that came through here, there wasn't anything in the definition on restaurants and my preference would be when we're talking about defining that restaurant that we talk about food and the amount of dollars when they talked about 50 percent and so forth, my preference would be on the food that comes in the back door not what goes out on the ticket that the patron pays. That would be one of the things I'd like to. Champion/Eleanor says (can't hear). Pfab/What. Dilkes/Well I think you know a lot of the definitions that they've got in the ordinance track the state code which is a good thing I think. Champion/Sure. Lehman/It should be consistent. Dilkes/And so we need to be consistent with that to the extent we can. Vanderhoef/The other thing that in all the literature I've been looking at is where it's a combined bar/restaurant situation and the cover charges don't go into either the food or the alcohol equation if we can. Dilkes/Well we've, those are all kind of the same issues that we would have to deal with in an under 21 regulation as well. Lehman/All fight go for it. Dilkes/All right. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of October 2, 2000. WSIO0200 October 2, 2000 Work Session Page 49 COLLECTIVE BARGAINING PROCESS Lehman/OK the next item is collective bargaining process. Steven. Kanner/Well I wanted to ask that we postpone this until two weeks and I was, gathering some more information on this to make a presentation to council. Champion/Fine with me. Atkins/OK with us. Lehman/You've got it. COUNCIL TIME Kanner/I' 11 go. Lehman/Go. Kanner/Two things, one at the joint meeting we recently had at North Liberty we talked about some, there was good. Let me start over, we talked about neighborhood resource centers and there was some good points brought up about we offer a lot of resources in Iowa City currently and so my question is and my proposal to City Council is that we explore the option of neighborhood resource centers if we want to contribute to that and see if it's something that would be a benefit to our citizens in Iowa City and that we talked, and that we ask staff to look into that because we had a proposal by the School Board about a possible neighborhood resource center that one of the schools in the Iowa City area. And I can see pros and cons, it was brought up that we offer these resources, maybe it would be redundant and we don't need to but I'd like to have a little more exploration. Because I have a feeling these resource centers are doing some good work and also I just wanted to say I was reading from the Broadway improvement group summary that we got in our comment that struck me, it says it will be important to try and increase a partner with the school district and I think that holds probably throughout the city, we want to make as many connections as possible and I think these resource centers might be a way to do that. Lehman/Steve do you have, off the top of your this is unfair I'm sure. Atkins/You can ask it anyway. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of October 2, 2000. WSIO0200 October 2, 2000 Work Session Page 50 Lehman/I'm going to. But obviously I think we know some of the sorts of services that are offered by resource centers and I think Steven's fight we presently many of those are offering within the community. Is there some quick way of doing a summary of the kinds of services offered by community resource centers? Atkins/I don't know if it's a kinds of services Emie as much as how you focus them in one spot. I gather that one of the first things I would probably do is talk to Lane Plugge and find out what he sees. Secondly with your, I asked Ross, Ross has extensive experience in these things in his professional life and that's just to see how they work. I mean I can put together a summary I don't think that without a lot of work on it, is there something yea. No I'm not going to do a long study or whatever. Lehman/Well we'd decide that if that's worth pursuing but I think that's. Atkins/OK. Pfab/I believe one way that to work on that is to get some mission statements from some of those. Atkins/Probably what I would do Irvin is just that is contact some of the providers and tell me what are the things that you do, where is the (can't hear). Pfab/Mission statements, I think that is, once you focus on that, it's a one stop shopping for people's needs. Atkins/And I'd probably talk to Joan [VanderBerg] I think [Julie] Stem. Wilburn/Yes. Atkins/She ran the place. Wilburn/Yes Joan would be who you would want to talk to and I already, at that meeting I mentioned to Lane to get some type of idea because the schools are so independent on who they let into the schools. Atkins/Why don't I do this, let me take a crack at some kind of a summary memo and then we'll take it from there. Lehman/OK. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of October 2, 2000. WSIO0200 October 2, 2000 Work Session Page 51 Kanner/And the other thing is on the, we're moving forward assessing, I think we were moving forward on assessing the civil penalties for cigarettes retailers called selling to minors. Is that correct? Did we decide we're moving forward? Vanderhoef/Well we talked about it at the joint meeting. Dilkes/Yea I think Pat White is going to do that. Lehman/I think that's right. Kanner/So the question is do we want to, well I'd like to propose that we go after as far back as the time limit allows which someone told me was two years that we can still assess civil penalties to people to businesses where there were criminal fines assessed. Dilkes/Yea I don't know what the statute of limitations is I'd have to look at that. Lehman/The only thing I'd say about that Steven if we have not assessed civil penalties in the past I really think we need to give fair notice that we're going to do that before we change the rules. We aren't really changing the rules but if we have, if folks have no reason to believe we would pursue civil penalties in the past I think they need to be put on notice, today at the meeting we had with the folks from the Liquor Control Commission they said one of the most important things was if you change the rules tell the public. Let the bar people know, let the people who are buying drinks know, let the underage drinkers know you are going to pursue these penalties. I think that from a public notice standpoint we probably should do that. Not that they're not guilty and should be pursued but in fairness I think that we probably should notify them. Other. Wilburn/I agree with that especially if your focusing on trying to change future behavior you know we could load up the documents stuff from the past and then get bogged down with that and not be able to proceed forward with changing the current behavior so. Kanner/So are we sending out notices this month to all the licensees, tobacco licensees? Lehman/I don't know how we would provide those. Kanner/Just a short note. Vanderhoef/(Can't hear) licensing. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of October 2, 2000. WSIO0200 October 2, 2000 Work Session Page 52 Dilkes/Well I think that effort is going to come from Pat White, I thought that was what the decision was. Kanner/Well but we're talking about, I just want to make sure someone does it and it doesn't fall through the cracks, I don't think that would be that hard for us to send out notices that we're going to be pursuing civil penalties. Lehman/Can we call Pat's office and find out what sort of notice he's intending to do and if chooses not to then we can notify the permit holders? Dilkes/Well yea we don't want to notify them until he's ready to go, I mean the effort's coming from him so. Lehman/OK. He coordinates it. Dilkes/Yea. Vanderhoef/An offer that I would like to make to Pat White is that when people come in for renewal of their license we could give them an additional piece of information notice or whatever that he would choose to offer so that it could just be handed out when they get their license. Champion/That's a good idea. Vanderhoef/I don't think it would be an imposition do you Madan? Karr/No, no, that would be fine, that seems appropriate, sure. Dilkes/I'll talk to them about that. Vanderhoef/OK. Karr/And that's part of that education process anyway and this is a different procedure, it makes sense, sure. Lehman/Mike. O'Donnell/Terrill Mill Park I've been driving by that about every day there' s never a parking spot available down there, never. Lehman/Storage lot. Pfab/Where? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of October 2, 2000. WS100200 October 2, 2000 Work Session Page 53 O'Donnell/It's at Terrill Mill Park down by City Park, that's become a storage lot for the Mayflower. Vanderhoef/Well it's also free parking for the day for people who hop on the Cambus come on into work. O'Donnell/But those are, you can watch them, I live in that area and it's all students, you can watch them walk over to Mayflower. Champion/Well there must be something we can easily do about that. O'Donnell/Well I think it's. Atkins/I can take care of that. Champion/Put up a two or three hour parking sign. O'Donnell/There is a sign. Atkins/I'm allowed to do emergency parking regulations. Champion/(can't hear). Atkins/No I can't do that. O'Donnell/Because if you want to use the park you can't do it because there's no parking spot. I've also had a couple calls on skateboards and bicycles on the pedestrian. Champion/Oh yea it's true. Vanderhoef/Absolutely. Lehman/We're doing a lot, we're really doing a pretty good job down there though and I think there was a meeting downtown what two weeks ago with RJ and who was there, anyway there wag a half a dozen business folks and I've had two of them already tell me they feel that. O'Donnell/They've seen an improvement. Lehman/They've seen improvement. Incidentally I hate to bring this up but you brought it up but it's relevant, one of the things that I've talked with the officers about and This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of October 2, 2000. WS100200 October 2, 2000 Work Session Page 54 I've talked to Karin Franklin about is we do not have in my opinion adequate signage downtown that says you can not write a bicycle or use a skateboard. Champion/No we don't. Lehman/We, she, Karin told me she would contact Boulder Colorado to see, apparently at the entrance to their pedestrian mall they have kind of rules to the road or whatever. In front of my store I was visiting with an officer the other day and he saw four people on bicycles, not one of the four didn't knew he couldn't ride a bike, one knew he couldn't ride it in the ped mall, he did not know he couldn't ride it on the sidewalk and I believe as did the officer that those folks did not know they couldn't ride the bikes. So until we post it well enough for people to know it's going to be pretty tough to really start, I mean we can tell them to get off their bike. O'Donnell/Well we should do that then pretty fairly quick Ernie (can't hear). Lehman/I think we need the signage. Vanderhoef/I had three bicycles pass me between the Civic Center and the Library. Champion/Did you chase them down? Vanderhoef/No. O'Donnell/I was done the other day and I saw two skateboards and about half a dozen bicycles in about 5 minutes. Lehman/The guys are really working pretty good on it, I think when the kids, some of them not to go. O'Donnell/OK. Champion/The other problem is too like though it's like unless the policeman is there you speed you know. O'Donnell/Yea, and the signage might help. But also at Hickory Hill Park dogs are evidently running loose, people are, I've had two calls on that where they've been accosted by a dog that's been running loose and we've got to get control on that. I mean we either need to take the necessary steps on a, I don't know how many favor a dog park, I personally think it's a (can't hear). Pfab/We've got a $5,000 offer cash if we can add it. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of October 2, 2000. WS100200 October 2, 2000 Work Session Page 55 Champion/I don't think the dog park is going to influence the dogs from running wild at Hickory Hill. Lehman/I think we'll be getting the dog park proposal coming up I would assume. O'Donnell/But the way we have it today is that if you walk outside your house with Rover and he's off the leash you get a ticket. Champion/Right. O'Donnell/And I think part of the responsibility of owning a dog is throwing a stick and having him bring it back and so I would, we need to, regardless we need to control Hickory Hill Park. Lehman/I think that, we are going to get the dog park recommendation. Kanner/No I think there's some good discussion going on in the Parks and Rec. with people involved with that. Lehman/OK. Connie. Champion/I don't have anything. Lehman/Dee. Vanderhoef/OK I just handed one of these updates on Iowa's Bottle Bill and it will be in the packet, it's a program that is being worked on statewide because there's obviously some push to drop the bottle bill law and our solid waste folks at the Regional Council of Govemments is violently against it as well as all of the TAC (committee). What they have done is put together an information sheet that you can get out of the packet, the other thing that they are doing and I brought some extras in case anybody wants them but they have these little tickets that they are giving to people to hand out and it says "Support and Update Iowa's Bottle Bill" and then on the back ofit's "I Support the Bottle Bill, I recycle here and I shop here" so wherever you go and shop and buy your bottled beverages you hand them to this to the retailer and say I support this and these will be available a lot but if you any of you want a few of them to hand out to your friends and use at the places where you shop I have them available. Champion/Well I think that's a mistake (can't hear). This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of October 2, 2000. WS100200 October 2, 2000 Work Session Page 56 Vanderhoef/I wouldn't be opposed to having this council talk about and see if we want to go on record as the council supporting it. Pfab/I would recommend that we do. Champion/I think it's ridiculous to think about that. O'Donnell/It doesn't have a ghost of a chance of making it. Kanner/So it sounds like you have four votes to bring it to a. Lehman/You've probably got 7. O'Donnell/I think I'd be counting 7. Vanderhoef/Well can we just put it on an agenda item and so we can work with it. Atkins/Some sort of a policy position supporting it. Champion/Or a letter to the. Karr/Yea are you wanting a letter or a resolution? Champion/A letter. Kanner/A resolution. Lehman/No not a resolution, we don't need to vote three times on it. Karr/Well if it's a letter you don't need to. Atkins/Do you wish to vote as a body supporting this bill? Lehman/Yes. Atkins/That' s a resolution. Lehman/Will that take three votes? Vanderhoef/No. Atkins/No just one. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of October 2, 2000. WS100200 October 2, 2000 Work Session Page 57 Vanderhoef/That' s an ordinance, it's just a resolution. Lehman/Oh OK good, I'd vote three times for it. Do you got anything else before Irvin doesn't? We're done guys see you tomorrow night. Adjoumed 9:05 This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of October 2, 2000. WS100200