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Home My WebLink About2001-01-16 Transcription January 16, 2001 Special Work Session Page 1 January 16, 2001 Special Work Session 5:00 PM Council: Lehman, Champion, O'Donnell, Vanderhoef, Wilburn, Pfab, Kanner Staff: Atkins, Helling, Karr, Dilkes, Matthews, Schoon, Severson, Boothroy, Winkelhake, Grosvenor TAPES: 00- 06, BOTH SIDES; 00-07, SIDE ONE AGENDA ITEMS Lehman/First item is review of agenda items. (All talking) Lehman/Does anybody have any comment on agenda items? O'Donnell/I do not. (Can't hear). Karr/You do need to wear your mic' s, I need to, taping. (All talking). Lehman/You're really picky. Karr/I know it, it happens when we have no restrooms. Lehman/Okay I guess we don't have any agenda items. Atkins/There is one on a zoning matter but Karin had to go to another meeting but she' s on her way back here to take care of that. Dee had a question on zoning. (Can't hear). Karr/Under agenda items you've got a revised Item #11, awarding contract to cable TV offices in front of you, the bids were just open this afternoon. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 16, 2001. WS011601 January 16, 2001 Special Work Session Page 2 Champion/I have a question for Eleanor on the Peninsula project. I mean I think we have a right to be a little upset with the Elks Club, but are we going to be legally responsible if they don't change that hole because I think that' s the easiest solution to the problem and maybe we need to help them do that to make that area safe. Are we legally responsible? Dilkes/You mean if a golf ball comes off that? Champion/Since we know the golf course is there? Dilkes/No. Champion/Okay but are we kind of ethically have a responsibility? Dilkes/Each kind of incident would have to be examined on it's own facts but I don't believe that we bear much liability at all in this situation. Lehman/Connie I think that the. Dilkes/And I. Lehman/I'm sorry Eleanor. Dilkes/My intention is to respond to Gregg Geerdes' s letters comprehensively and just to back up a little bit you know Steve sent them that letter with, which outlined with two pages of possible suggestions, we have yet to receive a detailed response to that. Champion/Okay. Dilkes/We haven't received really a response to those suggestions at all, we have received two letters threatening litigation. Champion/Right I've got those. Dilkes/And I need to respond to those comprehensively and I'm going to do that as soon as I've got the information I need to do it. Champion/You know my concern is although I don't think anybody can doubt my enthusiasm for the Peninsula project because I'm going to have a hard time proving it if I think were going to build people' s houses where people' s golf balls are going to, you know are going to be hit by golf balls. So I hope we can come to some conclusion to this with the Elks and they can have some positive response. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 16, 2001. WS011601 January 16, 2001 Special Work Session Page 3 Lehman/Connie I think that if you look at the proposal that Dover Kohl had, the location of the road. Champion/Right, I understand all that. Lehman/Well that' s fine except the golf course was constructed with full knowledge of where the road was going to be. Champion/I know, I know, I know. O'Donnell/But on the other hand there isn't a golf course in the country that doesn't have condo' s, or houses or something near or on the fairways and that' s why people choose to live there. Champion/Right, right, okay I'm just voicing my concern, I'm not saying, I don't think nothing who' s at fault, well I am saying who' s at fault it's not us. O'Donnell/I do agree that we should, there should be a tree line or a fence line or something, you know not every (can't hear) accurately as I do and there could be problems. Dilkes/I think staff has been trying to respond to those safety concerns regardless of where the liability lies you don't want somebody to be hit with a golf ball but we're not getting I don't think much of a response to those issues. Lehman/At the last meeting we invited the Elks to contact the city and set up an appointment to sit down and discuss it, I think the ball is in their court. Champion/Okay. Lehman/Any other agenda items? Item 6f. CONSIDER A LETTER TO THE JOHNSON COUNTY BOARD OF SUPERVISORS RECOMMENDING DENIAL OF A REZONING OF 125.43 ACRES LOCATED WITHIN FRINGE AREA C EAST OF DANE ROAD AND WEST AND SOUTH OF THE LAKERIDGE MOBILE HOME PARK FROM COUNTY A1 RURAL AND RS SUBURBAN RESIDENTIAL TO COUNTY RMH MANUFACTURED HOUSING RESIDENTIAL. (CZ0027) Kanner/Ernie Planning and Zoning 6F are we ready to roll on that for the letter of recommendation for the 125 acres? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 16, 2001. WS011601 January 16, 2001 Special Work Session Page 4 Lehman/We're going to have to ask Karin about that and she's not here so I don't know. Kanner/Okay. Lehman/I have no further information than what we had the last time we talked about it. Atkins/To my knowledge they have not submitted documents withdrawing, proposing alternatives, whatever, and I'm sorry Karin is stuck (can't hear). Lehman/Well she'll be here though. Atkins/She'll be here later on, okay. Lehman/Other agenda items? (Can't hear) 5:05 alcohol issues. Eleanor. ALCOHOL ISSUES Dilkes/I'm just going to run through and basically summarize what is in the memo and what is in the proposed ordinance. There really should be very few surprises here because essentially this is what you directed us to do the last time you made, the last time you discussed this. But let me just run through and kind of summarize and then you can ask whatever questions you have. With respect to the application process, as you know the Fire Chief, building official, Johnson County Health Department, Chief of Police and County Attorney will review those applications, the only changes there aside from being more specific in the ordinance rather than just incorporating some of those provisions by State Law being more specific in the actual ordinance, the only change there is the county will not review renewal applications as well as initial applications and we have eliminated review by the county sheriff thinking that that' s really a duplication of effort because the Chief of Police already does those background checks and reviews those things and we really don't get a whole lot more from that. So those are the changes there, I think it's good to get that review by the County Attorney at the renewal stage because that' s the point at which you have some experience under that particular license and we have specifically included a stated that the operations under the license can be will be considered in determining whether there will be approval or disapproval of the renewal. With respect to civil penalties and administrative sanctions as we have told you, on a number of occasions now, the administrative sanctions or civil penalties which ever you chose to call them are already authorized by State law. The general outline for civil penalties is up to $1,000, a one year suspension, or revocation, for a number of grounds the biggest one that we would be concerned with would be violation of State or local law, including sales to minors, to toxicated persons, those kinds of things. A hearing is This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 16, 2001. WS011601 January 16, 2001 Special Work Session Page 5 required before you can impose a civil penalty, that is a due process that is afforded to the licensee, they have the right to be notified of the allegations and the proposed action and the right to have an opportunity to respond to those. That would be a hearing in front of the City Council. There are basically two difference ways we would proceed with administrative penalties, one would be following a conviction for one of the provisions of the either our ordinance or the alcohol beverages control provisions of the State Code such as sale to a minor. Or proceeding without a conviction, I think we're just going to have to see how those things go, there's some pro's and con's to doing both. With respect to a conviction of sales to minors, as we've discussed before you can see in the ordinance, there' s sort of an automatic civil penalty that applies upon conviction for sale to a minor, not that you don't still have to have a hearing, but State Code outlines what the civil penalties will be in the case of, following a conviction for sales to minors. You could proceed with a civil penalty for instance upon conviction of sale to intoxicated persons or violations of the new prohibitions that you might put in place for happy hour specials and out of sight sales and those kind of things. State Code specifically provides that there not be, there does not have to be a criminal conviction in order to proceed with a civil penalty, I think the object here is to try to determine whether sufficient efforts are being made in the bars to control access of alcohol to underage persons once they're in the bars. You've decided not to proceed with the under 21 ordinance at this time and it's been my understanding that what you're hoping to accomplish by these initiatives is to see that reasonable efforts are made within the bars to prevent access of alcohol to the underage persons since they are allowed in the bars. Vanderhoef/In that case how do we, is it possible for us to require that an ID be shown every time alcohol is served rather than "just the check at the door?" Dilkes/Well they check the ID at the door and then they put as I understand it some kind of identification whether the person is underage or not and it is my position and I believe the position of the county attorney that it is not sufficient to simply check at the doors that when you sell, when the person goes up and wants to buy alcohol they have to be checked to see if they have the appropriate identification. That' s really the same thing as rechecking the ID. Vanderhoef/That's what I'm asking. Dilkes/And so yea, I would. Vanderhoef/We don't have to spell that out in the ordinance that this would be their responsibility to? Dilkes/I don't think you should have to spell that out in the ordinance I think. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 16, 2001. WS011601 January 16, 2001 Special Work Session Page 6 O'Donnell/They're taking a risk if (can't hear). Lehman/That's right, their risk. Dilkes/I think we should be able to have a successful prosecution if we have evidence that shows an underage person went to the bar, ordered a drink and was given a drink without being checked. That' s not a reasonable effort to determine whether that person is of age or not. Vanderhoef/And is there any penalty that could be assessed to an underage person who orders a drink? Dilkes/Oh absolutely, that' s the possession of alcohol offense. Vanderhoef/But before they receive it. Lehman/It is not purchased or attempted purchase. Dilkes/I think the language reads. Vanderhoef/But the civil penalty, I wasn't clear on what (can't hear). Dilkes/The civil penalty is against the licensee. Vanderhoef/But is there a civil penalty that can go against the person who is. Dilkes/There's a criminal penalty. Vanderhoef/Only a criminal, okay. O'Donnell/Only. Dilkes/Yea you're right, a person who purchases or attempts alcohol. O'Donnell/Right. Dilkes/So whether they actually had it, we have evidence. Pfab/You say no provision for a civil penalty for that? Dilkes/No there is not a provision for civil penalty and I frankly don't know what the real purpose would be. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 16, 2001. WS011601 January 16, 2001 Special Work Session Page 7 Pfab/Well to so you can put a stop to it. Dilkes/Well but you already have the criminal conviction, the purpose of the civil penalties is to affect the license holder. I mean that' s why we're looking at administrative penalties and civil penalties against the license holder, so that their license is affected, so that' s there' s a possibility of suspension for instance. Pfab/So you're saying there' s just no way to make a person that goes in who attempts to go in and buy who' s underage illegally there' s no civil penalty, there' s no way to do is that what your saying? Dilkes/Well frankly, a criminal conviction has far more ramifications for an individual than does a civil penalty. Pfab/But is also has far more difficulty getting it done. Dilkes/It's a higher, it's beyond a reasonable. Pfab/Right, I mean I don't know ifit's possible or not, for some reason I was thinking it was going to work on both sides of the bar so to speak. Dilkes/Well that had not been my understanding, that' s not something that' s specifically addressed by State law, we'd have to look at that separately if the Council was interested in that, I think what the Council needs to think about, I mean there's a lot of, whether you want to, first of all there are a couple issues, number one whether we could do that it's not specifically authorized by State law but secondly whether the Council wants to invest the time in providing hearings in order to impose civil penalties against individuals who purchase underage persons who purchase alcohol. And that' s kind of a whole different ball of wax, and not maybe worth the time that you would want to spend. Wilburn/Well I point out a couple things too, one that when we first started talking about this part of the concern for some of the people that we're going after, we're not going after the right people meaning the license holders. And if you check with the juvenile court office they have not shortage of PAULA' s. Dilkes/Yea, that' s right, we're not, that' s a good point, although it's a higher standard of proof, we're not having problems getting convictions for underage possession charge. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 16, 2001. WS011601 January 16, 2001 Special Work Session Page 8 Kanner/Yea but I think it's maybe worthwhile looking at down the road, see how these go and see if we need that but I'm of a mind that right now it's probably not necessary for the reasons that were given. Pfab/I would like to see at least a preliminary investigation whether it makes any sense or not or whether, how difficult it would be, I'm not saying we should but I think if we're going to be serious, I think we have to get everything in place that we may want to use, I'm not saying we should, I don't know. Champion/Well I think our attorney has enough to do without looking into something that we're not going to use. O'Donnell/I just think it's already being covered. Dilkes/Another thing to keep in mind that Andy just pointed out to me too is that the code does provide for upon a second conviction for possession of alcohol, there' s an affect on the person's driver's license. Andy Matthews/For up to a period, and that' s what gets them (can't hear). Dilkes/You're not picking up. Matthews/There' s a provision for a license suspension up to one year and that will get the teenager' s attention. Pfab/Well let me ask you this, I have no knowledge. Is it a rather common offense and a charge that sticks for underage person to attempt to buy liquor are there convictions of that? Dilkes/Well they're charged with possession of alcohol all the time, that' s what that charge essentially is. Pfab/And that is in affect, that is followed through and there are convictions, if the second one comes and they lose their driver's, it goes on their driving record it's something that would probably stop most people. Champion/Well it doesn't go on their driving record, it's their license is suspended. Pfab/Well if their license is suspended that' s their driving record. Dilkes/Well maybe we need to get through what we've got here and if the Council is interested in pursuing that additional measure then you can let me know. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 16, 2001. WS011601 January 16, 2001 Special Work Session Page 9 Kanner/Eleanor I just wanted to clarify one thing that was said before about (can't hear) comments and the ID's. The way I heard it is your saying that it's not enough if for instance someone is wearing one of those bands that Ross brought in, that if you tear it off you can know, it's not enough that' s someone' s wearing the right color band but the onus is on the bartender also check a photo ID? Dilkes/No I said just the opposite I think once they're checked at the door and whatever method they use for identifying for distinguishing between underage persons and overage persons that method needs to be checked at the point of sale. Kanner/Okay so that would be sufficient the band or the stamp on the hand, if they've gone through the checking of the ID originally at the door in a thorough process. Dilkes/Yea. Pfab/So what you're saying if someone can produce a stamp that's illegal that's not qualified or if they can get a bracelet on the bar owner can not be, that' s not a charge against the bar owner? Dilkes/It, if the person got in the door, and got a stamp illegally you mean by the use of a fake ID? Pfab/Right or whatever. Dilkes/Well there has to be some way to get in. Pfab/Well they let them in. Dilkes/Let' s say it's use of a fake ID and I was going to get to fake ID issue down the road a little bit but we can address that now if you want. Pfab/Okay that' s fine. Lehman/Well you go through the whole thing and we'll get back to the. Pfab/That's fine. Dilkes/So in any event you can proceed with the imposition of a civil penalty either upon a conviction or without a conviction and one of the things that we might want to do is just you know make observations within the bars or have undercover police officers making observations to see what efforts are being made to control the access to the alcohol within the bar. Now that' s going to be a lengthier process and require the the gathering of more evidence perhaps but that' s something that This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 16, 2001. WS011601 January 16, 2001 Special Work Session Page 10 we might want to consider down the road in places where we think we're having problems. After, if the Council would impose the civil penalty, you just need to keep in mind that there is an appeal to the Alcohol Beverages Division and after that there is judicial review by the courts if the licensee would seek that or if we would seek that. With respect to the changes that we've made regarding persons under legal age, we've made it a city offense to sell or serve persons under legal age, we've used the same language as the state offense which is to allow the City Attorney' s office to prosecute those as a city offense. It seemed that if we're going to be involved in the civil penalty aspect of this it would be good to have that as a possibility, we have though met with Pat White and I think we're kind of on the, we're on the same page in terms of what evidence would be sufficient to prosecute one of those charges either by his office or by my office. We also and I think I neglected to mention this in the memo, we have also specifically a city offense to sell to intoxicated persons. And let me just, I wanted to point out the language to, when we talk about sales to minors remember that this is the specific language, it says "sell, give or otherwise supply any alcoholic beverage, wine, or beer to any person knowing or failing to exercise reasonable care to ascertain whether the person is under legal age or permit any person knowing or failing to exercise reasonable care to ascertain whether the person is under legal age to consume any alcoholic beverage, wine or beer". So that' s I mean that' s a much, it doesn't just say sell, basically what it requires is reasonable efforts on the part of the license holder or it's employees to determine whether the person is underage or of age before they make the sale or allow the consumption. Now getting to, I just want to talk just briefly about fake ID's in this context because we had some correspondence from Dave Moore about this. If an employee or licensee is charged with selling to an underage person, they have a defense to that charge if they can show that the person misrepresented their age either by the use of a fake ID, I mean it has to be I think, it would have to be a fake ID that wasn't on it's face altered. So when your talking about fake ID's you have to remember that that would be, that would be a very viable defense on the part of the licensee. There was also discussion I think by Mr. Moore about making use of a fake ID illegal and that kind of thing, and those provisions are pretty much already in the state code. It's illegal to use a fake ID, to allow your ID to be used, to falsify an ID, to use a fake ID to obtain alcohol, etc. In fact there' s a provision in the state code which allows a bar owner or an employee of a bar who has based on reasonable facts determines that the ID is fake, they can confiscate that and if they deliver it to the police without 24 hours with a written statement then they're immuned from liability for confiscating the ID so there' s some pretty good provisions in state law already with respect to that. But I think the big thing to keep in mind is that a bar owners going to have a good defense if they were presented with a good fake ID. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 16, 2001. WS011601 January 16, 2001 Special Work Session Page 11 Kanner/Can you repeat that last State provision the 24 hours again that you just (can't hear). Dilkes/There's a provision in State Code that allows a bar owner who has a reasonable belief that the ID is fake or has been altered or is not the person' s ID etc. to confiscate that and if they turn it over to the police or the authority' s within 24 hours within a written explanation as to what the circumstances then they're provided immunity from liability for confiscating the ID. The fourth area that' s covered in the ordinances are the, or at least our first attempt at putting in place the prohibitions on drink specials and out of sight sales. We've included in there prohibitions on you know two for one's, all you can drink, that kind of thing. We haven't, I think Stepping Up mentioned to Dale that we didn't include a prohibition on using alcohol as a prize for a contest or basically giving alcohol as a prize for a contest or and we can certainly do that, I think we just kind of overlooked it but that' s something we can include if you want to do that before you have your public discussion. I think the big thing that you all have to think about here is what exceptions you're going to allow to those. Well let me back up for a minute, number one how many, in terms of out of sight sales how many drinks can one person buy? Can you and your date go out and one person goes up to the bar and get two drinks or do you have to each go up and get your own? You know three, two, what do you want to do with that? And then you need to think about the exceptions, probably the primary one that your going to need to give some thought to is the exception that we've seen in some other legislation from other states which provides an exception for things like pitchers and carafe' s when the alcohol is typically sold in more than a one serving thing. And arguably that' s part of the problem that some people have identified but it does have some enforcement issues. O'Donnell/Eleanor this I believe, limiting drink specials you know I first of all think all you can drink for $5.00 is outrageous and two for one encourages drinking and 21 pitchers for $21.00 when you're 21 is also bad. But what prevents a person you know if you do limit a special, what prevents them from increasing the cover charge at the door and selling beer on a regular basis or $. 10 or $.25 cents a glass? Champion/Nothing. Dilkes/They have the right to set the price, their normal price for one serving and if I mean if that happened we'd have to take a look at it. O'Donnell/(Can't hear). This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 16, 2001. WS011601 January 16, 2001 Special Work Session Page 12 Dilkes/I mean what kind of cover charge they'd have to charge in order to make that, in order to sell drinks for. 10 cents. Champion/Not a lot. Dilkes/I don't know, I don't know. But I don't, I think we, we talked about this back a few months, when we talked about the whole issue of special regulation and how we're trying to avoid regulating a particular price at which they charge rather allowing them to set the price that the basic price and then not doing the special thing but I don't, you know. Champion/Well I really don't think the bar owners are going to object to getting rid of specials. Matthews/If I may, I think if you want to regulate the actual price that may be very well be done at the State level, you see that in a lot of State statutes provisions that set a minimum price or require a minimum price to be set and maintained, whether we have that authority is somewhat gray area, we can certainly look into it more but it certainly becomes more problematic and I question whether we have that explicit authority to regulate. O'Donnell/I'm not suggesting to regulate, I'm just saying that this is something to most likely to happen, you eliminate a special and there are certain measures you can do to get around it. Champion/But they're already doing that Mike because of the way the Iowa dram laws are set up, they are already charging cover charges that allow them to sell alcohol very cheap which decreases the insurance cost that they pay, now it's already being done. O'Donnell/To a degree. Champion/I think for a lot. Pfab/This is one of the reasons why I say is it worth pursuing a civil penalty, there' s two people that are involved in transactions that cause problem, the bartender and the person that buys. Champion/Well the person that drinks the beer. Pfab/Well the person that buys it, after that it's the buyers problem but if you put civil penalties on both sides of that I think then that' s the fair way to go at it, I mean I This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 16, 2001. WS011601 January 16, 2001 Special Work Session Page 13 think we should take a look at it, I'm not saying we should do it, but I think we ought to be ready to initiate that if we are not satisfied with the results to get here. Champion/We've already given that up Irvin. Dilkes/One of the things to remember about civil penalties is it's not the financial, we're not looking here, well, the biggest affect a civil penalty is going to have is not if it's a monetary charge, I mean up to a $1,000 big deal frankly, it's the suspension that is going to have some affect and just like the State has gone to making their being an affect on the individual drivers license when they are charged with a second time or convicted for a second time of possession of alcohol because those are the consequences that have more of an impact. Pfab/But my question is, and I don't know the answer, is it a lot more difficult to get a conviction on that and as a result a lot of people don't try to convict (can't hear). Dilkes/Well I say again we are not as I understand it, Andy prosecutes has prosecuted these more than I have, we are not having any difficulty getting convictions for underage possession. Matthews/None whatsoever. Pfab/See I don't know that that's why I. Lehman/What sort of change is this going to be or burden for the police department? Police ChiefWinkelhake/The only difference is as far as checking with some underage people going in to make buys. We already are checking bars on a regular basis anyway, I don't see that this is going to be that much of a burden at all. Lehman/I think it's really important for us to know going into this that we're not getting into something that' s going to be a real problem for the police department to enforce. Winkelhake/The hardest thing is to get officers that aren't know. Lehman/Right. Winkelhake/And that may entail exchanging other officers from another department perhaps, otherwise I don't think it should be much of a problem. Wilburn/To follow up with that though what about fire and the building officials expecting the premises is that during the? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 16, 2001. WS011601 January 16, 2001 Special Work Session Page 14 Dilkes/That's always been the case, that won't change. Wilburn/When is that, I'm just curious, is that done afternoon, morning, is it done during evening business? Dilkes/When they're actually done I don't know. Karr/The procedure we follow currently on that procedure is that roughly 45 days ahead of time they will assign a scheduled appointment time via letter with the establishment, if that doesn't work with the establishments schedule, the establishment will call and schedule another time with the department. So far it's worked out fairly well, but they would just as soon do it at a non peak time in a traditional office setting. Wilburn/Question about civil penalty, Section B, Council should notify the State Alcoholic Division of any action that, is that just for a revocation or suspension or does that include a monetary find that we would have to note (can't hear)? Dilkes/That would include a monetary find. Wilburn/Okay and it's always, and the State could say? Dilkes/It's subject to appeal. Wilburn/Right, all right. Champion/I have a, I'm sorry I'll wait until your done, I thought you were done. Wilburn/No just a couple more questions. And then if it' s a fine under first conviction they have a, if they don't, if failure to pay the civil (can't hear) automatic suspension if it's not done in a period of 14 days, if they have an appeal to the State do they have to notify the City that they've got an appeal, that they're appealing the decision? How does that work? Section 4B of the City Code, A upon first conviction blah blah blah, failure to pay the civil penalty will result in automatic suspension of the license or permit for a period of 14 days. Dilkes/Are you asking whether we'd be notified if they appeal? Wilburn/Yea does the State notify? Does (can't hear)? Dilkes/Yea we'll be a party to that proceeding? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 16, 2001. WS011601 January 16, 2001 Special Work Session Page 15 Wilburn/Okay. Pfab/On an appeal is there a bond required to appeal? Dilkes/Appeal to the Alcoholic Beverages Division, I don't think so, no, not. Pfab/So in other words they just run out the clock, there' s no, they might as well at least go up to the courthouse door to appeal because it doesn't, (can't hear) extenses are (can't hear) limitation. Dilkes/Well I think on the appeal to the Alcoholic Beverages Division with a, with a renewal application they will be able to continue to operate, let's say you suspended, you impose a suspension and they appealed they would continue to operate with a renewal, not so on a denial of initial application. But if there was a further appeal to the courts they would have to seek a stay of the imposition of the penalty. Lehman/Eleanor you're saying this for renewals that the investigation (can't hear) include any relevant information about prior operations under the license or permit, is that, what does that mean? We get a permit renewal and this ordinance is in place, what are we as a Council allowed to look at historically from the operation of the permit holder? Dilkes/I don't think it really changes anything, it's just, it states really the obviously that if you have a license to do something and your not using it well you know there's been convictions for sales to underage persons or there have been penalties that you've imposed etc. you can look at that stuff when you look at a renewal application. Lehman/Well we could look at successful prosecution for civil or criminal penalties. Dilkes/Absolutely. Lehman/Against the bar itself, but we could not look at prosecutions against minors for example, the PAULA's that they have now, that is not something we could review. Dilkes/Well you raised, I think the way that we need to look at the number of prosecutions, the number of, or charges within a bar for underage possession of alcohol is perhaps that that' s indicative of there not being sufficient efforts being made in that bar to control access of alcohol to underage persons. But in and of itself whether you could proceed with a civil penalty based on number of PAULA's alone, my opinion is you could not. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 16, 2001. WS011601 January 16, 2001 Special Work Session Page 16 Lehman/Then it would also not be a basis for refusing to renew a license? Dilkes/In of and itself no. Lehman/All right. Champion/I guess. (A couple talking) Lehman/I have another question under Section 4-2-5, it's C7, talking about suspension of revocation of license the number 7 says "violation of any ordinance or regulation of the City of Iowa City," any ordinance or regulation. Dilkes/Violation by the licensee or permittee. Lehman/Of any ordinance. Dilkes/Yes. Lehman/Does that include shoveling your sidewalks of snow? No I'm serious. Dilkes/No, no, it does not. Lehman/It refers only to those ordinances that are applicable to alcohol? Dilkes/It does. Lehman/Thank you. I'd really like that to be very clear. Dilkes/We can clarify that. Lehman/Because it sounds, the way it reads if they don't shovel their snow we can revoke their license, it doesn't appear to be appropriate. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, you also say in this if I read this correctly, "the owner of an establishment must show that he's using, he's prudent in serving a person, checks the ID, whatever, to make sure the person he's serving is either of age or not intoxicated. But does it also say that the proprietor is responsible that his exercise it's prudence and if that employee does not then the penalty goes back to the bar owner who hired, I mean, did I read that correctly? Dilkes/Yes, the actions of the employees are the action of the license holder per purposes of civil penalties. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 16, 2001. WS011601 January 16, 2001 Special Work Session Page 17 Lehman/Right so this. Dilkes/Not so for criminal conviction. Lehman/Right but I mean this is a key difference to me if an employee serves a drink to a 16 year old and doesn't exercise prudence in doing that, the bar owner can be charged because of the inappropriate act of their employee. (All talking) Dilkes/You could seek to impose a civil penalty. Lehman/Right. Dilkes/Against the bar, you could not charge the bar owner with a crime. Lehman/No, no, but the civil penalty would apply? Dilkes/Yes. Lehman/All right. Kanner/The same with ifthere's a 16 year old at a supermarket that's selling, that doesn't take the care that's needed to make sure that a person is of age, the owner, the licensee could be held responsible at the supermarket also. Champion/They are now. Dilkes/The same rules would apply. Lehman/Anyplace that sell (can't hear). Dilkes/Any license or, the same rules would apply regardless of whether it's a retail establishment. Kanner/I just want to make it clear it' s not just applicable to bars but also to any alcohol licensee in the City. Champion/Well I think because of the common use of fake ID's it's going to be very difficult that a bartender deliberately served alcohol to a minor because every bar after 9:00 at night has some kind of identification system. But what these ordinances might allow us to do and this is what I wanted to ask of the Chief is to This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 16, 2001. WS011601 January 16, 2001 Special Work Session Page 18 actually do some sting operations that have some bite into them and getting minors and that would be, that would be probably our easiest thing to prove. Is that true? Winkelhake/That' s the easiest way to prove something when you know you have someone under age and your in there undercover and your able to watch what they're doing. Champion/And that' s what I think is a strong point. Winkelhake/The basis to be able prove something is to actually watch what they're doing to be have to. Champion/Right. Lehman/Does this proposed ordinance, would this be a good tool for the police department? Winkelhake/I think you've all talked about wanting to change some habits, and the only way your going to be able to do that is bar owners. Lehman/Will this do that? Winkelhake/It should help, it should certainly help. Lehman/Okay. Champion/Now am I correct that if we did some sting operations like you do in supermarkets now or HyVee's or Quik Trips or whatever and they do lose their license for an amount of time if they're found guilty of selling alcohol to a minor. Right now isn't that true? Winkelhake/Right now when you do that you're dealing with the person that' s making the sale. Lehman/Right. Champion/Right but is that? Winkelhake/Not the ownership. Champion/But if that person is found guilty of selling alcohol to a minor then doesn't the grocery store establishment or what do you call them, the seller of the alcohol, lose the right to sell alcohol for a certain amount of time, isn't that true? No. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 16, 2001. WS011601 January 16, 2001 Special Work Session Page 19 Winkelhake/Not at the present time. Lehman/Nope. Dilkes/Let me back up for a minute, the enforcement efforts that we're talking about with the police department would start to make if you proceeded with what' s proposed, it would not only apply just to bar owners but it would apply to retail establishments as well. Champion/Okay. Dilkes/So all the same rules would apply. Champion/Okay that has, thank you. Dilkes/And then secondly when you think about the what the police department would do with underage persons taking them into the bars observing them, seeing if they were able to purchase alcohol, it's very similar to what we've been doing with cigarettes. Champion/Right. Dilkes/And there have been some pretty dramatic affects there. Wilburn/So after our, a month goes by, the Chief looks at stats from the arrest lines at a bar and there' s one with a high occurrence rate that' s a flag for him to say we need to pay attention to, and maybe we need to do a sting here, or something like that. Is that how you would see this? Dilkes/In terms of the possession charges being indicative of there being a problem or I'm not? Wilburn/Yes. I guess what I'm looking at, Ernie asked a question about how this would logistically would work with an application or reapplication appearing in front of us and prior to that you've got you know a year goes by, with police and checking stats this gives them an opportunity to just say well we need to focus our efforts here and that helps him make his recommendation as to whether or not it would be approved for. Dilkes/That information would be available to the Police Chief and the County Attorney when they make their recommendation yea. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 16, 2001. WS011601 January 16, 2001 Special Work Session Page 20 Champion/I have one more question to ask the Chief too. When you, when police go into for a bar check and they arrest underage drinkers for possession of alcohol, minors for possession of alcohol, now what amazes me, how do the police pick these kids up and the bartenders don't? What' s the difference? (All laughing). Champion/It's very interesting. Winkelhake/The officers have become very proficient at going in and looking at what' s going on with people, you'd be amazed what they do when they're underage. The very first thing is the beer gets shoved away, and the drink gets shoved away and suddenly their looking all over the place except who they're talking to and those are things that are very clear to the officers when they come in. You would expect the bar owners and the bartenders would be able to see some of these same things. It's very simple, I shouldn't say simple, it's very easy for the officers for the most part to be able to pick out people who are underage and in some cases they know who they are before they ever go in there. Champion/Okay that, I think that' s really an interesting thing. Vanderhoef/It's my understanding that only the State can set the time for the suspension of a license after the charge, the criminal case has been made that. Dilkes/After a criminal conviction for a sale to a minor, to an underage person? Yea that' s set by State Code what the penalties are. Vanderhoef/There isn't any way that we can recommend a time period? Dilkes/If the basis of the civil penalty is the conviction I think your stuck with what State Code sets forth. Karr/Dee if I can paraphrase, are you asking whether the length of time or the specific dates? Vanderhoef/The specific dates. Dilkes/Oh specific dates. Karr/I think she' s questioning that sometimes that there more opportune than others as far as closing. Is that your question? Vanderhoef/For instance. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 16, 2001. WS011601 January 16, 2001 Special Work Session Page 21 Dilkes/No I think. Lehman/Spring break. Karr/We can. Vanderhoef/Spring break, some of those times of the year in this time, there would be a big difference. Champion/Some close on spring break anyway. Wilburn/I have a question about one of the exceptions. Dilkes/I think that we would have, we would, because you would be imposing the penalty in the first instance, I think you would set the time. Vanderhoef/If it's a civil. Dilkes/But if it's appealed, then that' s going to be within the discretion of the Alcoholic Beverage Division to modify it. They can affirm you, they can reverse you or they can modify you. Wilburn/Still a question on one of the restrictions, or one of the exceptions. The fourth one, page four, maybe I'm just not reading correctly but maybe you can explain it, if we allow an exception, time restriction on happy hour or drink specials. Dilkes/Oh that' s just a notation to you about, in your earlier discussions you had talked about there being times when you could have specials and that' s just a notation to you to think about whether you want to have these prohibitions apply during certain periods of time and not others. Wilburn/Okay. Dilkes/That' s not how we would word it, that' s just a bullet think about that exception. Wilburn/(can't hear). Vanderhoef/Weren't there some states that on that particular thing a happy, a drink special had to be for 24 hour? Some states made it that way so that the special ran all day not just for two hours of the day. Matthews/Or they'd set it specifically at a certain time for each bar so you don't see the people going bar hopping to take advantage of one at 7, one at 8, and one at 9. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 16, 2001. WS011601 January 16, 2001 Special Work Session Page 22 Vanderhoef/Oh. Wilburn/I think, I didn't talk to Julie from Stepping Up but a couple other people from Stepping Up the concern of a gift of, or a prize of alcohol, I think their concern was it had to be consumed on the premises and so there' s another thin. I think that's what it was related to soon. Pfab/I was under the impression that no gifts of alcohol would be allowed. Kanner/Just a second Irvin, could you repeat the last? Wilburn/My understanding was that the, I haven't been around or heard of this but it's that a prize, you're at a bar and you're given a prize of a pitcher. (END OF 01-06 SIDE ONE) Wilburn/It has to be consumed there and that was the concern that was being expressed I think about alcohol being given as a prize so I was just passing it on so. Champion/And of course the other thing I think we're concerned about is the problem created for the police force and for the community with acceptive drinking or binge drinking, and this ordinance also addresses that. Winkelhake/Right. Champion/It will give the police an opportunity to find out where somebody had a big pick up whose obviously intoxicated got their last drink and that may be one of the most important parts of this ordinance in getting rid of that problem. Lehman/Irvin. Pfab/Okay I have a question when was the last time a license in Iowa City establishment was not renewed? Champion/There was one revoked not too long ago. Lehman/Not in Iowa City. Champion/Yea. Dilkes/Iowa City. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 16, 2001. WS011601 January 16, 2001 Special Work Session Page 23 Karr/Suspended, there was one suspended not to long ago, I don't know if it was revoked. Champion/It wasn't revoked okay. Karr/I don't know which one you, I've known of one suspension. Champion/There was one revoked too, quite a while ago. Karr/Quite a while ago yea, quite a while ago. Champion/Of course the years go by fast. Karr/Irvin just to clarify, the last time that there wasn't one renewed I don't remember off the top of my head but there are circumstances where an establishment may choose to change ownership's and come in as a new one rather than renew because they anticipate potential problems. Pfab/Well my question is, it looks like we can't deny a renewal, well I'm just wondering when was the last time we did deny one, it almost looks likes it's impossibility so to come up here and present this that they're going to be up for renewal, we can't use this, we can't use that, we can't use this, why not just stamp it and don't waste our time. Lehman/Irvin I think that if we prosecute them civilly, that we convict them then we can refuse to give, to renew it. Pfab/Right, up until now I don't, I'm trying to figure out was when the last time one was not renewed. Lehman/That's kind of why we're talking about it. Pfab/Okay, because the other way was not effective. Lehman/The whole idea of talking about it. Other questions, we need to move along. Kanner/I have a few questions, one for Eleanor and Andy and then one for RJ. It mentions here from State language about health welfare and morals of it's citizens. Could you explain a little bit in a legal sense what that means morals, how the state has come through, look at that in terms of us giving out licenses and so forth? Dilkes/Well the, in looking at an application the Chief of Police and the County Attorney are supposed to determine whether the applicant is of "good moral character" as This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 16, 2001. WS011601 January 16, 2001 Special Work Session Page 24 defined by the State Code and that includes good reputation demonstrating that the person will comply with all laws, ordinances and regulations. There's a specific provision about felony conviction, if you've got a felony conviction then you can't get a liquor license unless it's more than five years old and your citizenship rights have been restored by the Governor but that' s obviously not what we're usually dealing with. I think what we're trying to do is get a process going to be able to make that judgment, maybe in a more informed way than we've been making in the past. But basically it's, I mean, at it's most basic, it's a judgment call about whether you think the license holder will comply with the provisions at both the state and local level that govern the use of alcohol and the sale of alcohol. Kanner/To follow up what Irvin was saying, I'd be interested in finding out what cities has the people that give out the licenses have denied renewals or new licenses based on some of these provisions and how often they were upheld by the state liquor agency, alcohol agency. To me that would be a guideline of in the future what we could use to deny based on health, welfare and morals of the citizens in addition to the information your telling us. So that' s something, is that information accessible that you have? Dilkes/I think we could probably gather that information if the Council wanted us to do that, or attempt to. Kanner/Yea because I think that gets that sort of what Irvin is saying and I've said that to a certain extent that certainly we can use certain things as indicators but if we find other cities are able to deny licenses for certain causes and we should know about that and feel free to use that also as one more weapon in perhaps the campaign to limit the affects of over drinking/underage drinking. Lehman/Steven according to the ordinance and this I think is State law, the Chief of Police and the County Attorney shall each make an investigation to determine if the applicant is a good moral character as defined in Section 123.326 of the Iowa Code of Revenues of the Iowa Alcoholic Beverages Division apparently by the time we get that, by the time it gets to us it's gone through the Police Chief and the County Attorney who have made that determination as defined by Iowa law. Kanner/And I think City Council' s are set up to take that information sometimes make supra decisions or overriding decisions over all of this to say yes we're going to agree with you but maybe this time we'll disagree with you and so I would think it would be in our interest to take closer looks at these things. Yea, I don't think the majority of Council agrees with that but I think it is something we should take a closer look at, at least get these figures of what other cities are doing and what' s been upheld because we're being told that certain things will be denied on appeal if we make certain denials of licenses or renewals. And I would like to hear what has This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 16, 2001. WS011601 January 16, 2001 Special Work Session Page 25 been successful. And along that line we also said we were going to bring in the head of the division of the State, I understand he's coming in on the 20th anyhow but being brought in by Stepping Up I believe but we had talked about bringing someone in from that division to talk specifically to Council and I was wondering if anything had happened on that. Helling/There' s some indication that the Commission wants to hold it's January meeting in Iowa City rather than in Ankeny but that has not been finalized yet, that would be on the 30th so it's my understanding it's at the initiative of the Commission that they would come here and hold their meeting. Kanner/Well this was just that one person to come Lynn or I forgot the name of the person that, a woman that. Karr/Judy, Judy Seib. Kanner/Yea I think they said they would be happy to come in and talk to us as a Council and go over some of these things and we said we wanted to explore some of that and I hadn't heard anything specifically. Dilkes/The Lynn Walding and Judy who' s head of their licensing division were here, remember Ernie you were at that meeting and I was at that meeting and Stepping Up was at that meeting. Kanner/No this was something else, we had said we wanted to them perhaps come to a work session I recall, City Council had said that, to talk about some of these issues and issues of what, how, if we can turn down renewals on certain basis and what their thoughts are on that. Dilkes/Are you talking specifically about, what are you talking specifically about? Kanner/Issues of renewals and what is subject to renewal, and what they'll uphold, what they would tend to uphold on appeal, or deny. Dilkes/But what specific, are you talking about the issue of the number ofPAULA's I mean specifically? Kanner/I'm talking about the issue of City Council, what is appropriate for denial and just in general some of these issues also that were brought up by you for our consideration for ordinance. Dilkes/I mean you have to remember that doesn't stop with the Alcoholic Beverages Division, I mean I think they have indicated that they, particularly with the Ames This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 16, 2001. WS011601 January 16, 2001 Special Work Session Page 26 decision, they upheld the Ames City Council decision to affect the license, the bar that had a number ofunderage citations within the bar, now that was a different situation because they have an under 21 ordinance but they upheld that civil penalty, that suspension I believe and I think it's on appeal to the district court, there's no decision. Lehman/They got a 6 month license (can't hear) up to a full year. Dilkes/Yea, right. But ultimately the parameters will be defined by the courts and not by the Alcoholic Beverages Division because the ultimate appeal goes to them. And there is some case law out there and we've looked at that and that partially is what we base our opinions on. Kanner/On another subject, RJ laid out a scenario that police can go in and catch people who are underage and then cite them for possession under the legal age, if we assume and we have people observing the bar, are we to assume then that bartenders should have or the licensee should have the same capability of catching people, will that be used to show movement towards the civil penalty? So should we use that same standard? RJ is saying that the police go in there it's pretty easy to find out who's underage or to go up to them. Are we saying the bars should have that same standard as if they're not, that' s cause for civil penalty? Dilkes/No that' s not exactly the way that I would look at it I think the way that you would look at it is not whether they use the same criteria as the police department does but rather when looking at the evidence before you as a whole they've made reasonable efforts to control access to alcohol. Now some of the things that RJ has described for instance are due to the fact that there' s a uniformed officer in the bar, I mean the looking away and the pushing away of alcohol, I mean you wouldn't use that necessarily that same criteria but it's a reasonable standard for purposes of the imposition of a civil penalty, and I can't outline for you what those exactly what those are. But I think for instance having one of the things that you might observe is that there are sales of pitchers for instance without exactly control at the floor as to who is consuming the alcohol from the pitchers. We've heard stories of you know at some hour a bell goes off and everybody can come up to the bar and a shot is poured in their month those kinds of things. I mean those kinds of observations would be important to make, now those observations have to made and the evidence would have to be presented to the City Council and I can't tell you in, how exactly how that would shake out. Kanner/And RJ I had a question for you. A lot of the awareness has been instigated from Stepping Up and the University, have they stepped up to offer police assistance, their police, to assist in this? Quite frankly I'd like to see our police perhaps in This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 16, 2001. WS011601 January 16, 2001 Special Work Session Page 27 other areas where there' s violent crimes and use some of the resources of the University police to do some of this work. Winkelhake/We've worked together with the University Public Safety department in the past, but they're always partnered with somebody. What I heard you say was let the University go do this and not our officers. Kanner/Well perhaps with our direction or partnership with us but to take a greater lead in helping with this, especially veer some of the costs of personnel that are involved. Winkelhake/I guess from my perspective I would prefer that our officers that are the ones are involved in that, particularly if they are going to come in front of this group and say we're looking at you to impose the civil penalty. If I'm going to do that I would like to have people that are trained, told how to do it by us in going ahead and making those efforts. I don't have any problems with partnering with other people, we've done that quite a bit on various enforcement efforts that we've had. We work with Coralville, we work with Public Safety, we work with State Patrol on various things but if we're going to come before this group and ask you to take some action my personal preference is that we're the ones instigating it and are in charge of it. If you people want to do it some different way that' s fine but that would be my preference, I think that' s what you asked? Kanner/Yea. Winkelhake/My preference would be that we're the ones that do that. Kanner/So your of the opinion that we can train non police officers to do these observations and report them in a way that will bring credible evidence to a hearing? Winkelhake/I think you can train to do observations but when your going to end up making a charge, you want to have a police officer there and you want to base it on the information that the officer can testify to. The observation you may have in a bar where we can send someone in and say we want you to watch this and see what happens in the next hour when people walk up and ask to get a pitcher filled, is there anybody checking that ID. That certainly can be done by other people but my preference would be again because your going to come in front of this group to have a police officer do that. Kanner/I just have some trouble with undercover police officers in a bar for large periods of time and I don't know where I would draw the line. I know that police go in there, but to have undercover police to me is something I would like to explore This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 16, 2001. WS011601 January 16, 2001 Special Work Session Page 28 more and see if there are other options that are available that we could pursue. Do it for a number of reasons, one because of the issue of undercover police in bars, and also because of the cost of our police and I'd much rather see police resources go into other areas at a higher priority. Champion/Well Steven I think your, I disagree with you on that, you mentioned before you'd like to see the police in high violent crime areas, well I'll tell you on a Saturday night with a bunch of drunks, it's a high violent crime area. So you know I think the police are doing fine and most of the people act differently when there is a uniformed policeman around. Just like it makes it easier for them to catch the minors, so if we're not going to allow, well first of all I wouldn't tell the police chief to use undercover policeman, or regular policeman, I think that' s his decision, but I just don't see how you expect him to find out what's really going on with a uniformed policeman, people act very different with a uniform. Vanderhoef/I suspect if we have involvement early on that it may able to taper off later if our ordinance is working, later on we won't need as much pervalance kind of activities in the bars but we've got to get a handle of this now and if it takes more police officers at this time then I'm willing to put the efforts. Kanner/Connie I don't know if this is per amount of people that are there that this is our highest violent area, if there are other areas perhaps we, I'd like to know what the situation, if we need to put more people into investigating sexual abuse, perhaps we need to put more officers there. There' s always a trade off and I'm not sure this is the highest violence area to put the police officers. Champion/I just don't really think that we would have a police department that would ignore an abuse case in order to arrest an underage drinker, I mean it doesn't seem possible. Kanner/Well we put priorities and at your asking the Council, the Council majority said we need to put more presence to catch bicycle riders that are illegal on the pedestrian mall so we put priorities for police officers. Champion/Well I don't think the priority of asking for more police enforcement was just bicyclists Steven I think there were other problems going on downtown. Lehman/The question really here and I think we're getting off track. Obviously there has been a feeling on the part of this Council and a number of other people within the community that we have a significant problem associated with over indulgence of alcohol in underage drinkers, that' s the only reason we're talking about this ordinance, if we're not willing to enforce the ordinance then there' s no point in passing it. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 16, 2001. WS011601 January 16, 2001 Special Work Session Page 29 Champion/Right. Lehman/I think we have to a commitment on the part of the Council, and a commitment on the part of the police department, otherwise we're sitting here wasting our time, we've been talking for about 70 minutes, I guess not quite that, obviously we're not going to get through with this tonight. I think we're going to have to draw this discussion to some sort of a close and schedule for another work session, I don't know what, where, what would you like from us at this point? Dilkes/Well I think you need to tell us what you want to do, if the Council wants to have further discussion about it among yourselves, or if you want to set a public discussion on it as currently drafted, or you could do a combination of things. For instance you could choose to go ahead and proceed with the civil penalty portion of the ordinance, and get public discussion on the specials issue, I mean it really is up to you. Lehman/What's your pleasure folks? Champion/I'd like to have a public hearing, there' s some things I think we need to refine on the ordinance like how many drinks can you buy at one time. If the bar is selling pitchers of beer, where is that pitcher of beer going? I mean there' s some refinement we need to do, but I think if we're ever going to get moving on it we should schedule a public hearing because that doesn't lock in the ordinance does it? Dilkes/Oh no. Champion/I mean we can change. Dilkes/No in fact there' s no public hearing required by law on these ordinances so you can have a public discussion and then you can change, you know, that' s not a problem. Lehman/Our next regular meeting is February 5th, would it be a good idea for us to take another stab at discussing this for a few minutes going over some of the options that are here and then at that meeting scheduling a public meeting for later in February? Kanner/Well I'm think I'm ready February 5th, I think the City Attorney came back with what the Council asked for and I think put this to the public and let' s hear what they say and then come back among ourselves to adjust that. I'd go for our next Council meeting to have a public discussion of some sort on this. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 16, 2001. WS011601 January 16, 2001 Special Work Session Page 30 Lehman/How does the rest of the Council feel? Pfab/My feeling is what are we waiting for? Wilburn/I'd agree with the public, we said we would come back to the public with this, that' s what we're waiting for. Pfab/Okay let's do it. Lehman/So we'll schedule this. Pfab/Just whatever needs to be done. Lehman/So the February 6th council meeting. O'Donnell/I have one more question. Chief and I also agree with Connie that people are going to act much differently if you have an undercover officer versus a uniformed officer but how many people, I guess what I'm asking is can we make it mandatory that you have an ID to go into a bar? Winkelhake/That you have a what? O'Donnell/That you must have an ID to go into a bar. Winkelhake/That' s a question that Eleanor would have to answer, I don't know the answer. Dilkes/That you must have an ID to go into a bar? O'Donnell/Yea. I know a lot of cases, if I were a young person going into a bar and I had a fake ID, as soon as I got in the bar one of my 21 year old friends would have my fake ID and I'd have my stamp and I'd be able to buy beer. So it seems to me if we would make it mandatory that you have an ID at all times, it might be a step in the right direction on this. Winkelhake/I kind of misunderstood what you had said, I know that there are bars that will serve you if you have a traffic ticket instead of a some sort of an ID to show something, that' s happened on occasions. Whether or not you actually have to be able to, you can have an ordinance that says you have to have an ID I don't know the answer. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 16, 2001. WS011601 January 16, 2001 Special Work Session Page 31 Dilkes/I guess Mike I'm not following what the purpose of this would be because I think in terms of, because people who are not allowed to drink are allowed in bars I mean they're just routinely checked for an ID at the door. O'Donnell/But it would establish to me blame element if a 19 year old went in with a fake ID and then ditched the ID when he got inside and an officer checked him, he didn't have the ID on him, if we would required that he would have the ID in the bar. Dilkes/Oh you're not saying that, you have to have the ID on you the whole time your in the bar. O'Donnell/That' s right, and I think the University could take a step forward on a student ID, they could put a date of birth on it. I mean some form of lD that has your date of birth on it. It would be much easier to prove blame to me. Dilkes/Yea, I'm not, because when they check you at the door and they put the stamp on your hand, I mean that basically, that takes the place of having an ID in your possession because they checked you at the door. Champion/But there are penalties for a fake ID, so what these kids do is they get into the bar with the fake ID and then they get rid of the ID. Dilkes/And they ditch. Champion/So it's not confiscated, it's not taken away from them, there' s not a penalty for it. Pfab/And they can use it again. Champion/And they can use it again so if the police check somebody, I don't know what your policy is because I'm not a policeman but I mean if they don't have an ID because they used a fake ID and they don't want the police to confiscate their fake ID. But Mike is saying is you have to have this ID on you at all times, so when the police go up to somebody, that person has to have an ID they can't say they lost it, or you know whatever, that they have to have an ID. Pfab/What about, so why not rather than stamp them, say when you want a drink, ID at the time of purchase. Champion/To complicated. Pfab/Is it? I don't know. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 16, 2001. WS011601 January 16, 2001 Special Work Session Page 32 Vanderhoef/It didn't use to be. Pfab/Is this done other places that you can't buy drink without picture ID? Winkelhake/There are states that require you to have, but you have to be 21 to be in the bar, and I certainly don't know about other states whether they ask to see an ID each time, I can only speak. Pfab/Is that done anywhere that you know of?. Champion/Drive people crazy. Winkelhake/Not that I know of. Pfab/Okay, all right. O'Donnell/Let' s move on Ernie. Lehman/Okay, we have. Dilkes/So we're doing the public discussion on the 6th. Lehman/Public discussion on the 6th. Dilkes/Okay, and I will go ahead and include the prohibition on the use of alcohol for prizes and that kind of thing so it's all in here and can be discussed. Vanderhoef/Yes I would like that thank you. Lehman/On view of the time would the Council like to get a sandwich while we listen to the next presentation? Vanderhoef/We better. Lehman/Otherwise it's going to be a little late. Champion/You don't want us to eat on TV? Lehman/Connie you can eat on TV all you want. O'Donnell/Remember we're on TV now. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 16, 2001. WS011601 January 16, 2001 Special Work Session Page 33 Lehman/Why don't we grab a sandwich and then we will talk about Family Resource Center. O'Donnell/So were going to take five minutes. Lehman/No we're not going to take five minutes, we're going to take long enough to get a sandwich. Break Lehman/We will try to be as alert as we can so please and we'll try not to speak with food in our mouths. FAMILY RESOURCE CENTER Joan Vanden Berg/I do many things at one time. Are you ready for me to get going? Okay well my name is Joan Vanden Berg, I'm the Youth and Family Development Coordinator for the Iowa City Community School District and behind me is Dr. Lane Plugge the Superintendent of the school district, and we're here tonight to talk about Family Resource Centers. And first of all I'd like to thank you for this opportunity to be able to talk about this a little bit, I think many of you have visited our Family Resource Center in Noah Liberty and that prompted some Council Members wanting some more information about the program and what potential there could be in other schools in Iowa City. So I sent something to you I think back in November, maybe early December, I put that in front of you just to refresh your memory a little bit on that, and I'll just review that quickly I know that you have a full night ahead of you. But just for starters on the second page, there are three major goals of our Family Resource Centers, the first one is access to community resources, and the district is fully aware that not all kids are coming to school ready to learn and so we need to look at those needs, food, safety, shelter before they are prepared to be able to learn at our school system. So those are the families that probably benefit the most because we're reaching those families and meeting those needs. But one of the things I like the most about Family Resource Centers is that there' s not a lot of eligibility requirements to participate in one and so unlike many services where you have to have a certain problem to be eligible for a certain service, anyone is welcome to use the center and use the services there. The second goal is one that' s clearly probably of most interest to the district and that' s increasing the parent involvement with the school and clearly the research indicates that when parents are involved with their children' s education the children just do better. And so the Family Resource Center proves as a link to the parents particularly, I mean there' s a logistical factor when the parent doesn't have a phone, or they maybe don't have good transportation, or maybe they can't read the correspondence home. So sometimes This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 16, 2001. WS011601 January 16, 2001 Special Work Session Page 34 just having someone go do a home visit and follow-up and see what they can do to facilitate that communication is really helpful. And also that information is fed back to some of the educators in the building so they understand better kind of the context of how that (can't hear) operating in the family so we're not just dealing with the child but the whole family. And then also we can address those issues and connect them back up to the resources they might need. And the other thing I think is really exciting to see in our Family Resource Center programs is I think increasingly we have a community that isn't as interdependent probably as previous generations so it's kind of developing neighborhoods and people getting that sense of networks of support with each other so people can talk to each other if they both have kids who have attention deficit disorder or parents that can connect up and can maybe carpool for something or you know use their phone because I think isolation is something that is truly an issue for many families and just having other friends and neighbors there to support them is really important. And so on the third page I kind of listed, we have kind of a menu of activities that can be offered at a Family Resource Center, and I've kind of likened it to water, you know a Family Resources Center takes the shape of the container that it's in and I think we really tried to make that as specific to the need of that school as possible. And to do that we, in our Family Resource Center' s that are more established, we've done survey's with parents to see what is it that's most important to them. And we also have a steering committee at that school with parent participation and other key stake holders in that neighborhood so that they can kind of direct us and what menu of services does fit for them. So different schools have a little different programs just kind of depending on the resources that they already have in their school and their community and also what they want and what they need. Collaboration is a huge part of this, we collaborate with many of the United Way Agencies and local non profits here in town. I think having those resources on site have been a valuable, and our local agencies have done a great job of stepping up to the plate to help us with this. We also, I think what' s been a wonderful thing to see in terms of collaboration is not only the agency support but we have churches coming forward and giving money and donations, we have volunteers, we've had some elderly volunteering, we've had clothing stores say gee we're not selling these clothes, we can give it to your clothing bank, you know we have food banks, just a whole array of things that kinds of gets a mechanism for people to give to their local community so that' s been an exciting thing. And then also volunteers, we have two different programs that we can have up to 50 volunteers matched one and one with students and so that again maximizes what we're able to do with young people. So the services I mentioned they're very diversed, again we look at kind of those fundamental needs, kind of like (can't hear) hierarchy means you've got to meet those basic things before kids can learn. Parent Education Council support is a huge issue and also we do a fair amount trying to do things after school because it's that 3-6 time that kids often are getting into trouble and so we're trying to structure that time for them. On the This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 16, 2001. WS011601 January 16, 2001 Special Work Session Page 35 fourth page, I gave you kind of a sample budget and this is from the city of, or the Noah Liberty Family Resource Center, and why I chose that one is I think it's such a good example of how many different partners are involved in supporting this because we don't want to have all of our eggs in one basket, we don't want to have just one funding source with something like this because then it' s at risk you know of going away if the funding source goes away. And so the City of North Liberty is actually contributing $15,000 to the program and Johnson County last year met that, and then we have some grants and some district dollars in that as well. So I guess what we are here tonight to talk with you about is we do have three programs in the Iowa City city limits, one at Grant wood, well one at Mark Twain, and one at Horace Mann and we used to have one at Grant wood but it was one of situations where it was on a single funding source and when the grant went away so did it. So similar to what we've done in Hills and Noah Liberty we'd like to partner with the city and reestablish with starters our Family Resource Center at Grant wood. Pilot that, see how that goes, and then potentially look at Twain and Horace Mann and in the future possibly other, there are certainly other schools who would like to have Family Resource Center' s as well but that' s kind of our starting point. So with that I'd be happy to answer any questions, Lane I don't know ifthere's any comments you'd like to add to that. Dr. Lane Plugge/We have just seen great success in our Family Resource Center in serving kids, serving kids by serving their families. And I think most of the Council Members went through the Family Resource Center at Penn so you have a good idea of how it operates. It's our intent probably to try and get this up and started regardless but we thought there was some interest in trying to serve certain areas of the community so that' s why we're coming for it and also we'd like if there's any assistance you'd like to help us with so (can't hear) because funding those programs are always difficult because that' s not our primary mission, our primary mission is serving children, educating children, but in order to educate them there are some other needs we need to meet so. Vanden Berg/I think the other thing is we've identified some other funding sources but for it to be a viable program you need a full time person with benefits and some operating, you know supply, mileage line items. Because if you have that one person then you can draw in other resources and volunteers and they can kind of be the straw that stirs the drink but without a full time person I think it really is I think difficult to pull it off so. Irvin. Pfab/I think this is a marvelous thing and I'll tell you why, somewhat personal experience. I think we're seeing a lot of, I don't know if it's domestic violence, or violence amongst people and I believe that if you can develop a great self esteem in each child violence will be over because the person that has self esteem is not going to allow anybody to do it and the person that, the other person won't do it if they This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 16, 2001. WS011601 January 16, 2001 Special Work Session Page 36 have self esteem, I think it's people with low self esteem is where these problems start intrapersonal relations really start to (can't hear) away because the abuser isn't going to take it one more time and I'll deck you and the other person has no need to do it if they have self esteem, that' s what my information is telling me anyway. Vanden Berg/And I think clearly in the issue of domestic violence isolation is a key, often the abuser will isolate the family and that allows him to have more power so I mean that having those networks of support, someone coming from the school to reach out to them to connect with resources and neighbors is really important. And also among the young people to have that sense of belonging. Pfab/Have what? Vanden Berg/If you can have that sense of belonging in a really negative, anti social way or you can be a part of something that' s positive and pro social. Kanner/Joan do you have any statistics on tracking some of the participants in your program in any of the Family Resource Centers on self esteem? I know there' s tests and measurements and so forth. Are you doing any of that kind of tracking? Vanden Berg/We mostly have relied on parent and teacher surveys to get feedback on the program. We haven't done a self esteem survey per se with young people but we've surveyed parents and the parents who participate in the program, it's basically 100 percent agreed that they feel more connected to school, they feel more comfortable to school, it's a welcoming place, they feel like their children are more connected. And with the parents surveys that we did specifically on the tutoring program, or the teacher survey I think it was 89 percent felt that the children achieved more and were more excited about learning having participated in the program so those are the surveys we've done. Self esteem survey' s, it's difficulty to find one that' s that works well, we're always looking for good evaluation tools, Ross probably has some ideas on that. Kanner/Yea well I think what you mentioned about the teacher survey I think. Do you have plans to do some more evaluation of the program to see what affect it is having? Vanden Berg/Well and I think what we want to do now since we have some longevity with some programs is take a look at the kids who have been participating for a while and see what they're doing. I think what' s kind of, the tricky part is what they'd be doing had they not been in the program, it's kind of hard to tell with prevention where they would have been. I think we can at least assess and have some information on how they're doing. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 16, 2001. WS011601 January 16, 2001 Special Work Session Page 37 Plugge/The key is in the name, its a Family Resource Center so there are benefits that go past the children as well. Kanner/I know that neighborhood centers have some evaluation I think what is the Hawaii. Vanden Berg/Oh the Help Assessment. Kanner/Things like that and it seems that it would be worthwhile some of those. Vanden Berg/And actually we have some of those I forgot about that, we do have an impowerment area program in our Noah Liberty and Hills centers that target young families birth through three, and there' s quite a bit of evaluation stuff like the help thing that they're doing at the part of that program. And I should add to that Family Resource Centers aren't just K-6, we do work with younger children and some teens as well. Lehman/Does the budget for Hills approximate the one for Noah Liberty? Vanden Berg/Actually Hills is kind of out of whack because we just got a new 21 st Century schools grant and that grant alone is $200,000 so the Hills budget would be quite a bit more than this, the City of Hills is giving $6,000 and the county' s matching for it for this upcoming year. Plugge/The Hills program is a bit different because of the grant we have, it's a grant that really focuses on extended school day and school year activities which is much more extensive because we have the dollars to do that so. And we will be tracking academic achievement there as well and will have that data. This is the first year of implementation order, we'll have a second year guarantee, but after the third year we'll have to show some results so. Vanden Berg/Right. Plugge/But then at the end of third year we'll be left, it's a game that you play also with soft money to run some programs. Lehman/Now do you have any idea what the county' s perspective of this is as far as Iowa City is concerned? Vanden Berg/You know they had a RFP that went out to rural communities specifically and I haven't had a conversation with them if they were interested in matching you know a city or one of our urban areas proposals. It would be worth asking them. I This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 16, 2001. WS011601 January 16, 2001 Special Work Session Page 38 should add the Coumy also supporting our Family Resource Cemer program through the juvenile crime prevemion gram we did get some dollars that way to. Pfab/I know David Schoon and I were at a ICN presemation put on the Iowa Economic Development Commission and it appeared from what I could see until I had to leave another thing I had to take care of was that there' s probably some grant money out there now David wasn't sure, that' s something that could be used in Iowa City or not but that' s a question. I couldn't read that that was not the case that they couldn't use it in Iowa City, that was the same thing that came to my mind, neighborhood centers. Vanden Berg/And I think we're pretty aggressive about going after grams but I think when it's only gram funded your program becomes very volatile. Pfab/Oh no. Vanden Berg/And so that' s why we're looking to help get some other sources of more stable funding, and that we can do as much latitude to meet the needs of the community because sometimes you write a grant and then you have to meet the needs of what the grant wants you to do and sometimes that can get a little farther away from what the community is wanting. Pfab/Well at least maybe it has a possibility of starting one. Vanden Berg/Right, absolutely, yea. Pfab/Speaking of that, what is going on over at the Pheasam Ridge that' s coming through State? Is that a community center? Vanden Berg/I think the Pheasam Ridge Neighborhood Cemer, in many ways this is similar model, this is just neighborhood based opposed than school based. I don't know. Plugge/I'm not certain (can't hear). Pfab/There's an open house on Thursday and they're having some. Kanner/Part of the Human Rights (can't hear). Pfab/I just went through there two days ago and it (can't hear). Plugge/The key thing to operating the Family Resource Centers in my humble opinion is that person you have running it because the idea behind a Family Resource Center This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 16, 2001. WS011601 January 16, 2001 Special Work Session Page 39 is not duplicate the services that are available elsewhere in the community, the idea is for that center to help families access the services that are already there, so that person becomes very key, that's, if you boil the whole budget down t hat' s probably the biggest thing, there probably some other in kind things we provide because of the school district because we house them there but. Pfab/Well I think the neighborhood center school based, I just don't think there' s any other, ifthere's anything that' s even close to that if it works. Plugge/We just don't have a lot of space now either (can't hear). Champion/If we would decide to partner with you on this, what would expect monetarily and when would you expect things to get underway, what budget are we talking about? Vanden Berg/Well ideally, if we could hire a full time person at Wood and split that cost 50/50 that would be wonderful. A full time person with salary and benefits and having some operating budget would be about $40,000 and to start I would assume you would be starting with the July 1 st fiscal year and that would be probably our time frame in terms of, probably getting things really up and going with the new 2001-2002 school year. Champion/So $20,000 is what your asking us. Vanden Berg/That would be wonderful. Champion/Basically, I mean that would be a round figure. Kanner/And from what you're saying Lane and Joan we funded you know over $400,000 the CDBG and other general funding for neighborhood centers and other human service agencies, you wouldn't want us to take away from those agencies to fund this because. Plugge/I'm not here competing with any other organization for funds they have. Kanner/What you're going to do is something beyond what the neighborhood centers is able to accomplish, that's what I want to hear. Plugge/We think a school based model, a school based model is one of the most effective ways to access families, not only access children but to access families through their children. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 16, 2001. WS011601 January 16, 2001 Special Work Session Page 40 Vanden Berg/And I think it's just a little different structure and clearly we partner with neighborhood centers at Twain right now but I know one of the struggles is we have a neighborhood center staff at Twain but she can only you know (can't hear) of the neighborhood center really just serve the kids that live in Broadway Street and we want to serve the entire Twain attendance area so I think there are some limitations. And also I think there' s some really opportunity to collaborate with neighborhood associations as well I mean kind of when we talk about at it a steering committee and looking at the needs of the community it makes a lot of sense to work with the neighborhood associations very closely in determining that and helping kind of any bridging we can do with that I think would be mutually beneficial. Plugge/I think it would give a positive focus to a neighborhood association. Vanden Berg/Yea, something to rally around besides streets widening and street lights, and you know I think neighbors need something to focus on and I think from my perception often that' s when something bad is going to happen in the neighborhood and they want to fight it so I think this gives. Plugge/That never happens to you. Vanderhoef/What do you see in the way of collaboration between your PTA or PTO or whatever your school based family organization is and the city could find neighborhood organization. I mean I think the same groups of people in the same neighborhood supporting two kinds of organizations here still focusing on family and children and all of your esteem building and all the other things you want to put in there. Has there been any collaboration between those two parent organizations? Vanden Berg/Some and I think it also just depends too on the neighborhood association and that neighborhood school and I think that's something we'd want to build more on. I know we have neighborhood folks on the steering committee along with representatives from the PTA/PTO, but I think where this goes maybe a little broader is that we're trying to reach the parents who haven't traditionally participated in the PTA/PTO. Vanderhoef/Well I understand that part but what I'm visioning is the combination that a true neighborhood community includes school. Vanden Berg/Right. Vanderhoef/Not the city neighborhood for trees, and playgrounds and parks and stuff because there's another park/playground that is associated with that school. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 16, 2001. WS011601 January 16, 2001 Special Work Session Page 41 Plugge/My sense Dee is that there is not a lot of cooperation, if you see a lot of the same people I think they're busy just changing hats. Vanderhoef/And this concerns me, this is a piece I would like to see more. (END OF 01-06 SIDE TWO) Vanderhoef/(Can't hear) but all meet together and know what each piece is doing. Vanden Berg/Cross fertilization, yea that makes a lot of sense. Plugge/I want to thank you, I hate to eat and run but I have a meeting to get to, I have a meeting myself and I think I can pass Arby's on the way to it so. Lehman/Lane thanks for coming down. Plugge/No, no, I'll pick up my own. Lehman/Are there other questions here? This is obviously something we're going to have to discuss as we discuss our other budget issues but thank you very much for. Vanden Berg/Sure, and ifthere's anything, any more information that you need or if you need me to come please let me know, thanks for your time, I appreciate your time. (All talking) COUNCIL TIME Lehman/Do we want to do Council time here or do we want to do it at the end of the regular meeting? (Couldn't hear). Karr/Could I just make one announcement? Lehman/You may. Karr/A request, we have a similar situation February 19 as we had this week with a holiday on Monday, and with your concurrence. Champion/What is it Valentines Day? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 16, 2001. WS011601 January 16, 2001 Special Work Session Page 42 Karr/No we don't celebrate that one. Pfab/Presidents day. Karr/With your concurrence we'll do a similar arrangement with time permitting and have the work session the same evening unless you would like to hold the work session on the 15th. O'Donnell/(can't hear) really not a bad idea at all. Lehman/I would concur with doing it earlier the same day but I'm not so sure we shouldn't perhaps look at a 4:30 time. Karr/We may look as the agenda prepares itself we could keep you apprised of that and talk about starting times different than five. Lehman/Because I think tonight for me, is a little uncomfortable, we could have talked about the (can't hear) work calendar for a much longer, I mean there' s a lot of questions that we have that we need to talk about. Champion/I think the talk could fill the space available easily. Dilkes/That' s always the case whether it's a work session or. Lehman/Do we concur that it's okay to do it again this way? Champion/Yes. Kanner/Sure. Lehman/Okay, I will not be here on the 6th of March which is a regular meeting, I'm going to be out of town. Karr/That' s the night we're going to be voting on the budget. Champion/Oh you need to be here. Lehman/You can be responsible for spending all of that money because I will, I can not be here, I have to be. Karr/I need that mic, I mean I need to, sorry. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 16, 2001. WS011601 January 16, 2001 Special Work Session Page 43 Lehman/I can not be here, unless you want to reschedule the meeting at some sort but I will not be. Kanner/She wants to know if she can spend all the money like (can't hear). O'Donnell/We can reschedule. Champion/I think. Lehman/That' s up to the Council, think about it, it's not something we have to decide right now but I just wanted you to know I will not be here that night. Kanner/Well maybe we can inquire in the next week or two so about during the off week about a (can't hear) be there so we don't have to waste the February. Karr/Why don't we work out some options because it does, we under some time constraints? Lehman/The budget has to be done before the 15th of March. Kanner/Yea so I'd say let' s if we can get a date in between. Lehman/And that's fine if Council would wish to do that. O'Donnell/No problem. Lehman/All right. Champion/What if we just moved to that, how long are you going to be out of town? Lehman/I'll be back that following Friday. Champion/The following Friday. Lehman/No I leave town Tuesday morning and I'll be back Friday afternoon, that' s the following Friday. Atkins/No that's the Friday that follows. Lehman/It's the Friday that follows. Karr/Later in the week, later in the week. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 16, 2001. WS011601 January 16, 2001 Special Work Session Page 44 Lehman/Let' s just let this one rest for about 15 minutes. Adjourned: 6:40 PM This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City council meeting of January 16, 2001. WS011601