HomeMy WebLinkAbout2005-10-03 Transcription October 3, 2005 City Council Work Session Page 1 of 53
Council: Bailey, Champion, Elliott, Lehman, O'Donnell, Vanderhoef, Wilburn
UISG Rep: Baeth
Staff: Atkins, Dilkes, Fowler, Fosse, Franklin, Helling, Karr
Tapes: 05-60 & 05-61 (Side 1)
Planning & Zoning Items
Franklin: First of all, you have a number of items that are setting public hearings on
rezonings and these are rezonings that are relative to zoning code amendment that eliminates
CB-2, that changes RFBH to OPDH-12, changes some of the RS-8 to RS-12. I won't read
through all of these...but they're A-H.
A. CONSIDER A MOTION SETTING A PUBLIC HEARING FOR OCTOBER 18
ON AN ORDINANCE REZONING PROPERTY FROM CENTRAL BUSINESS
SERVICE (CB-2) ZONE TO CENTRAL BUSINESS SUPPORT (CB-5) ZONE,
MIXED USE (MU) ZONE, HIGH DENSITY MULTI-FAMILY RESIDENTIAL
(RM-44) ZONE, AND PUBLIC (P) ZONE FOR THE AREAS CURRENTLY
ZONED CB-2 LOCATED SOUTH OF JEFFERSON STREET AND EAST OF
GILBERT STREET. (REZ05-00014)
B. CONSIDER A MOTION SETTING A PUBLIC HEARING FOR OCTOBER 18
ON AN ORDINANCE REZONING PROPERTY FROM CENTRAL BUSINESS
SERVICE (CB-2) ZONE TO CENTRAL BUSINESS SUPPORT (CB-5) ZONE,
NEIGHBORItOOD COMMERCIAL (CN-1) ZONE AND MIXED USE (MU)
ZONE FOR THE AREAS CURRENTLY ZONED CB-2 LOCATED SOUTH OF
DAVENPORT STREET AND NORTH OF JEFFERSON STREET.(REZ05-00015)
C. CONSIDER A MOTION SETTING A PUBLIC HEARING FOR OCTOBER 18
ON AN ORDINANCE REZONING PROPERTY FROM CENTRAL BUSINESS
SERVICE (CB-2) ZONE TO CENTRAL BUSINESS SUPPORT (CB-5) ZONE
AND PLANNED HIGH DENSITY MULTI-FAMILY RESIDENTIAL (PRM)
ZONE FOR THE AREAS CURRENTLY ZONED CB-2 LOCATED SOUTH OF
BURLINGTON STREET AND WEST OF LINN STREET. (REZ05-00016)
D. CONSIDER A MOTION SETTING A PUBLIC HEARING FOR OCTOBER 18
ON AN ORDINANCE REZONING PROPERTY FROM RESIDENTIAL
FACTORY BUILT HOUSING (RFBH) TO PLANNED DEVELOPMENT
HOUSING OVERLAY (OPDH-12) FOR ALL PROPERTIES CURRENTLY
ZONED RFBH, INCLUDING SADDLEBROOK, BON-AIRE, HILLTOP,
BACULIS, FORREST VIEW, THATCHER MOBILE HOME PARKS AND
PROPERTY LOCATED AT 1705 PRAIRIE DU CHIEN ROAD. (REZ05-00017)
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E. CONSIDER A MOTION SETTING A PUBLIC HEARING FOR OCTOBER 18
ON AN ORDINANCE REZONING PROPERTY FROM MEDIUM DENSITY
SINGLE-FAMILY (RS-8) TO PLANNED DEVELOPMENT HOUSING
OVERLAY - MEDIUM DENSITY SINGLE-FAMILY (OPDH-8) FOR LOTS
LOCATED ON LONGFELLOW PLACE WITHIN THE LONGFELLOW
MANOR SUBDIVISION. (REZ05-00010)
F. CONSIDER A MOTION SETTING A PUBLIC HEARING FOR OCTOBER 18
ON AN ORDINANCE REZONING PROPERTY FROM MEDIUM DENSITY
SINGLE-FAMILY (RS-8) TO HIGH DENSITY SINGLE-FAMILY (RS-12) FOR
LOTS LOCATED ON DODGE STREET COURT WITHIN THE JACOB
RICORD'S SUBDIVISION. (REZ05-00011)
G. CONSIDER A MOTION SETTING A PUBLIC HEARING FOR OCTOBER 18
ON AN ORDINANCE A REZONING PROPERTY FROM MEDIUM DENSITY
SINGLEnFAMILY (RS-8) TO HIGH DENSITY SINGLE-FAMILY (RS-12) FOR
LOTS LOCATED ON CATSKILL COURT WITHIN THE EAST HILL
SUBDIVISION. (REZ05-00012)
H. CONSIDER A MOTION SETTING A PUBLIC HEARING FOR OCTOBER 18
ON AN ORDINANCE REZONING PROPERTY FROM MEDIUM DENSITY
SINGLE-FAMILY {RS-8) TO HIGH DENSITY SINGLE-FAMILY (RS-12) FOR
LOTS LOCATED SOUTH AND EAST OF WHISPERING MEADOWS DRIVE
WITHIN THE WHISPERING MEADOWS SUBDIVISION. (REZ05-00013)
Champion: These are just setting public heatings?
Franklin: This is setting public heating for the 18th and we'll talk as to the next item as to
exactly what date that will be. One of the common questions that comes up is
what constitutes or what does this do in terms of moratorium? For those in which
if they change from CB-2 to some other zoning category, that is a significant
cL'ange, a moratorium would be imposed as soon as you set the public hearing for
sixty days. What that means is that anybody who wishes to build within that time
frame their project must be in compliance with the old and the new if they are to
act on that building permit in that time frame. Changes such as RFBH to OPDH-
12 have no substantive meeting. It's nomenclature. There's not going to be any
changes in the rules on that particular property. So that one...it has a moratorium
technically, but it doesn't mean anything. The RS-8 to RS-12 enables you to
build on smaller lots. Consequently the change that would be significant would
be that if you wanted to build a duplex in RS-8 in this interim period and it was
not on a comer lot you would not be able to do that.
Lehman: You'd have to comply with both codes - the old and the new?
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Franklin: Correct, because it's got to comply with both. One of the reasons that we're
doing the rezonings from RS-8 to RS-12 is to enable those areas that were platted
as duplexes to develop as such. Okay?
Elliott: Karin, just a little more clarification because the density of my brain requires
additional information...the moratorium...this vote tomorrow night initiates the
moratorium, is that correct?
Franklin: That's correct.
Elliott: For sixty days?
Franklin: That's correct.
Elliott: Now, if the Council is not done with this whole mess...pardon that expression,
with all of this business within sixty days, does that moratorium end or does it
continue?
Franklin: Ends.
Elliott: So, it is sixty days period.
Franklin: And a moratorium can not be placed on that same property for a year.
Champion: I guess that pushes us a little bit.
I. CONSIDER A MOTION SETTING A PUBLIC HEARING FOR OCTOBER 18
ON AN ORDINANCE APPROVING THE VACATION OF PORTIONS OF
MADISON STREET, SOUTH OF PRENTISS STREET, AND DES MOINES
STREET. (VAC05-00007)
Franklin: Okay, now Item I is not related to the zoning code. This is setting a public
hearing for October 18th on an ordinance to vacant a portion of Madison Street
south of Prentiss and Des Moines St. This is in that area that the properties were
primarily owned by the University of Iowa. And there was one property owned
by a private individual. That property has now been acquired by the University so
everything around this street that is being vacated is owned by the University of
Iowa. We still have access to the river via an easement on Harrison Street. That
was an issue that came up at P&Z but it's been addressed.
J. APPROVING THE VOLUNTARY ANNEXATION OF APPROXIMATELY 51.9
ACRES LOCATED ON AMERICAN LEGION ROAD (ANN05-00002)
Franklin: O~cay, Item J is a public hearing on the annexation of approximately 51.9
acres...this is the Fairview Golf Course. This is east Iowa City. It is west and
south of Windsor Ridge, more west than south because the Windsor Ridge is this
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little RS-5 piece up here. This portion right here will continue to be in the County
for time being as well as American Legion Road and south...the property down
here is in the County...Far Horizon's subdivision will continue to be in the
County. This piece, which looks peculiar because it is, is a remainder from when
we did the Windsor Ridge annexation back in 1993. This person did not want to
be part of the City so this was eliminated from the annexation and at that time we
did not have the 80/20 rule and could not just take it against their will. So, those
irregularities in the boundary are likely to be addressed when we annex to the
south of American Legion Road at some future date. So, for now we are looking
at the 51.9 acres which is the shaded area. The subdivision is in your packet and
that is Item K.
K. CONDITIONALLY REZONING APPROXIMATELY 51.9 ACRES FROM
JOHNSON COUNTY RESIDENTIAL (R) TO LOW DENSITY SINGLE-FAMILY
RESIDENTIAL (RS-5) SUBJECT TO' CONDITIONS, FOR THE PROPERTY
LOCATED ON AMERICAN LEGION ROAD (REZ05-00018)
Franklin: Item K is a conditional zoning to rezone the property to RS-5 so it's the same
shaded area. This is a conditional zoning in which we are not conditionally
zoning it based on the layout, which is a little bit different than what we've seen
in a while. It's just being rezoned to RS-5 and the only condition relates to
assessment for improvements to American Legion Road. Similar to what we did
with Lindemann and Windsor Ridge North. Okay? Any questions on that? We
do not have a signed CZA tonight but we expect it to be signed by tomorrow.
L. CONSIDER A RESOLUTION APPROVING THE FINAL PLAT OF CARDINAL
RIDGE PART ONE, IOWA CITY, IOWA. (SUB05-00018)
Franklin: Item L is the a resolution approving the final plat of Cardinal Ridge Part One.
TI{is is the location of Cardinal Ridge, which is just west of Walnut Ridge off of
Kennedy Parkway. We've had quite a bit of discussion about that. These are the
lots that are included. It's just this short extension off of Kennedy. We do need
to ask you to defer this to October 18th because the legal papers are not totally
done or approved yet. That's it for that.
Zoning Code Schedule
Franklin: Okay, the schedule for the zoning code...there's a memo in your packet that sets
up some dates and starts out with tomorrow night with you setting the public
heating on map amendments for the 18th. All of those things that we just talked
about with the moratorium, etc. Now, on the 27th you all said something about
well you might want to have a special meeting for this and not during your regular
meeting. That's possible...if you can all come to an agreement on what date that
would be. As I recall, our discussions about these work sessions for the zoning
cc'fie, there was going to be some difficulty in getting everybody together. The
18'th would be a regular meeting and I can tell you tight now that the two
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rezonings that are going to have controversy, and there will be people here, will
be the North Side Market Place and then just east of City Hall here in the area that
is zoned CB-2 between Washington and Burlington.
Elliott: That's the proposed elimination of CB-2, right?
Franklin: Right and it's only those two areas in which there's CB-2 that there is
controversy. Other areas that are CB-2 and changing have not been controversial.
Vanderhoef: How about the one or two places that are left south of Burlington? Aren't there a
couple down there?
Franklin: There are but there was no controversy surrounding those. I'm just highlighting
those that have been a topic of discussion at Planning and Zoning so you can get
some sense of how you fit this into your schedule. It will be like having a couple
of controversial rezonings on your Council agenda, which you have done before.
I guess I'm arguing for keeping it on the 18th but that's obviously entirely up to
you guys.
O'Donnell: It's fine with me.
Franklin: It's difficult to work out otherwise and get you through by the end of the
December. That then would give us the fifth Wednesday. We've got our public
hearing on the text...that would give us the l0th which is a scheduled work
segsion time to discuss those map changes explicitly...what they are, what the
cdntroversy has been, what the rationale is, what the Planning and Zoning's
recommendation is to you, and further discussion of the text in one of those six-
thirty to eight-thirty sessions. Then, on the 18th, we'd have your regular meeting,
a public hearing on the map and continued hearing on the text. Just leave that
open.
Lehman: I really think we're going to have to first...the start of the public hearings on the
code on this coming Wednesday. I really think that we really need to continue
that to another date between now and the 18th. I think we really should work on
that.
Franklin: You mean to have more public hearing?
Lehman: Yeah, well there's no way we're going to get through...well, I shouldn't say
that...my suspicion is that we'll never through with that on Wednesday.
Franklin: No, you won't...but right now this agenda gives you three opportunities to have
public hearing on the text. It takes you to November 1st for...you have hearing on
the 5th, the 18th, the 1st, and potentially the 15th on the text.
Champion: Of November?
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Franklin: Of November.
Lehman: The only issue I have...the 5th is going to be strictly limited to the text. I don't
know how much...the 18th...that's a regular Council meeting. If we're going to
be trying to have a public hearing on the text - er, continue the hearing on the text
and having a hearing on the map...is that a little much to get through in one night
along with a regular meeting? I think it is.
Franklin: Yeah, it is...but do you have some other dates in mind when you're all around?
Lehman: I just really would like us to be able to deal with the zoning issue on it's own
instead of doing other business with it. ! think the public...now the 10th we've
reserved that night...
Elliott: For a work session.
Lehman: Right.
Franklin: You could continue the public hearing on the text for the l0th, but you can't set
the map amendments for the 10th.
Lehman: No, I understand that...but I think we're going to have enough work on the text
that maybe we should do it.
Champion: Emie, could you back up? Are you talking about the 9th or the 10th.'? TO continue
th~', public hearing to?
Elliott: The 10th, Monday.
Champion: To the l0th, which is a Monday. Okay.
Lehman: We reserved it anyway.
Champion: I know, I just heard somebody say the 9th and I was thinking 'What?'
Vanderhoef: That was the night that had sort of been planned for Council to talk amongst
ourselves.
Lehman: But my suspicion is that we may not be ready for that.
Bailey: So it sounds like we need another work session night set aside.
Champion: Could we do a daytime to discuss amongst ourselves?
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Franklin: So, at this point I'm hearing that maybe a text...we'll continue that text hearing to
October 10th.
Lehman: Does this agree with Council?
Elliott: The 10th, yes.
Lehman: We'll continue the public hearing on Wednesday night to the following Monday
night and then based on...
Bailey: Monday night at 7:00 for public heating?
Lehman: 7:00 until 9:00. Our public heating on Wednesday is at 7:00 as well, tight?
Franklin: Yes.
Champion: Okay, Emie, couldn't we leave that open...if we do happen to get done with that
public heating?
Lehman: Oh sure, absolutely.
Champion: We can do some other discussion.
Vanderhoef: We'll meet that night.
Bailey: I would prefer to set some dates.
Karr: Regenia, could you pull your mica little bit towards you a please? Thanks.
Champion: I agree, I think we should set some dates. We could start some discussion on
items that we know are going to have some controversy with, ourselves.
Vanderhoef: After the public hearing people have come through.
Champion: If we're done with it.
Franklin: One thing I would like to have on the 10th is an opportunity to explain to you the
m~p changes.
Champion: Okay, that would be good.
Franklin: That needs to happen some time before the 18th.
Lehman: How much time is that going to require?
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Franklin: Well, I mean, this is going to be your time with the Commission, for the
Commission to present to you why they have proposed these zoning changes.
Champion: Oh, that's what the l0th was set aside for?
Franklin: Yeah.
Vanderhoef: Left's do it first.
Lehman: Can we do that?
Vanderhoef: Then start the public hearing at 7:00?
Franklin: Potentially do that at 6:00?
Lehman: Yeah, could we do it at 6:00 until 6:45 and then start the public hearing at 7:00?
Karr: So we'd have a special work session as 6:00-6:45 and a formal at 7:00?
Champion: We better allow them at least an hour.
Franklin: What do you think Don? 6:00 o'clock potentially for a joint meeting ofP& Z and
the Council on the 10th...we had figured before it would be 6:30.
Dilkes: I aon't think it was intended to be a joint meeting, was it?
Lehman: No, it wasn't originally. That wasn't set up for a meeting with P&Z, it was just
set up as a work session for us. It could be...
Franklin: The Commission has not had an opportunity to talk to you about the map changes
at all.
Elliott: The public hearing is Wednesday the 5th. Ernie, you're talking about...if we need
to, and we undoubtedly I think will, continue that public hearing to Monday the
10th, at which time I think that representatives of P&Z would want to be there for
the public hearing.
Dilkes: Can I just point out one thing...I think my muddling on the l0th the map changes
and the text public hearing, you run...if you're going to have your work session
or, the map changes and you're going to presumably have people here for
thht.., and then you're going to move into a continued public hearing on the
text...I think you're going to get -
Franklin: You're going to get input on the map.
Dilkes: Things are going to start getting overlapped.
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Bailey: And overlap in our own heads as well.
Lehman: I ~.gree, let's just do the public hearing continuance on the l0th and have another
date for the discussion on the map.
Elliott: Regenia discuss a day time...maybe a daytime amongst Council could be
preceded by the map reading or however we want to describe it.
Dilkes: Is there some time between the l0th and the 18th that you can do a work session on
the map changes?
Franklin: We've got the 17th...if we just.., if you have the tolerance to sit a little bit longer
on the 17th...that's your regular work session. I just don't know what might be on
that work session agenda.
Karr: We have a number of Council people leaving after the 18th...SO I mean, the only
dates that you've got with taking out the l0th and the primary is the 12th, 13th, and
14th.
Elliott: I'll be gone on the 13th.
Lehman: Good, let's do it then. No...
Champion: Why don't we combine it with our work session on the 17th.
Franklin: And see how it goes?
Champion: Just start with that.
Lehman: Alright.
O'Donnell: That sounds good.
Franklin: Steve, there is something that Steve Nasby has on the 17th for a half an hour.
What is that? I'm blanking?
Atkins: Scattered Site housing.
Dilkes: Just another small item.
Atkins: I think they will submit their report, they don't have to respond to it.
Franklin: Is anybody in the lobby conference room right now? Did you come to a
conclusion? That's right, Scattered Site.
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Karr: Is there any interest on the ]0th...I know at one time you talked about meeting in
the morning for a little while and then meeting in the evening.
Bailey: I can't meet that morning or afternoon until later.
Wilburn: I can't.
Elliott: How about the 1 lth?
Lehman: That's primary day.
Champion: I mean, I'm willing to meet on the 11th.
O'Donnell: I don't have a problem with that.
Lehman: Well, we have the 12th, 13th, and 14th.
Elliott: I'll be out of town on the 12th and 13th.
Bailey: After 2:00pm or before 5:00pm on the 11th.
Champion: I'm really quite flexible up until this begrudgingly but I'm very flexible.
Lehman: Well, is Tuesday afternoon a time that will work for folks? Say 3:00pm?
Wilburn: You're welcome to meet - but I can't meet then.
Lehman: No, it's important that we all be here.
Bailey: Absolutely.
Elliott: We may just need to have a late night session on some of these, folks.
Bailey: That's doesn't bother me. I'd rather have...
Vanderhoef: Iflour brains aren't fried by the time we get to them.
Champion: It just depends on how hot the fire is. (Laughter)
Vanderhoef: Can you assure me that it's going to be on low?
Lehman: Would it be alright to meet earlier on the 17th? Say we have a 5:00pm meeting?
Bailey: On which?
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Lehman: Off the 17th .... can we do that? 5:00pm on the 17th.
Elliott: I have a 2:00pm on campus...I should be done by 5:00pm.
Champion: Well, if you don't talk a lot you could be.
Elliott: I think there was a barb in there.
Lehman: There may not have been a barb - but there was a Connie.
Franklin: Okay, okay.
Lehman: 5:00pm on the 17th.
Franklin: Okay, so that will present the map changes, and then on the 18th we'll have the
public hearing on the map and continued hearing on the text, continue both of
th6se to November 1st and then we have on the 31st a work session in the
afternoon, which is your regular work session -
Elliott: 2:00pm.
Franklin: So there's an opportunity there if something comes up from one of you...
Champion: I've lost track of time. Does somebody have a calendar I can look at?
Lehman: We have a work session scheduled for 2:00pm on the 31st.
Franklin: Correct. That's your regular work session in anticipation of your November 1
meeting.
Elliott: I had that for the 24th.
Champion: I'm out of town on the 24th.
Elliott: Okay, the 31st at 2:00pm.
Champion: We don't have anything scheduled for the 23rd, 24th, and 25th, right?
Kart: We can't -we have people out of town.
Champion: That's right, I'm out of town.
Lehman: The week of the 24th we don't have any meetings.
Franklin: Then November 1st, okay, continue the public hearing on the text and the map,
and then you close the hearing on the map. It's important first to close the
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hearing on the map because then that cuts of the protest. You can protest up until
the public hearing closes. At that point we make a determination of whether there
isa 20% in any of these areas that are proposed for change that is going to require
an extraordinary majority vote.
Elliott: Do you keep count on...are you the one that will bring us the tally on that, Karin?
Franklin: Yes, Marian and I work together on that.
Elliott: When is the cut off for that?
Franklin: At the end of the public hearing?
Elliott: I mean for the tally? As I remember...
Franklin: Close of the public hearing.
Lehman: Er.d of the public hearing is that night.
Elliott: Okay.
Franklin: So, it's up until the time the gavel falls.
Dilkes: It may be that prior to the close of the public hearing we know we're over 20% -
Franklin: Then it becomes smooth.
Dilkes: But if we're not...we can't say we're under the 20% until we close the public
hearing.
Lehman: Are we expecting to close the hearing and are you expecting a first vote that
night?
Franklin: N6. Then the 7th we'll have work session to reconcile the map and the text. What
I mean by that is...if we have an extraordinary vote requirement, you're going to
have to, amongst yourselves, figure out if you have the votes there to go or not. If
you don't have six votes then we've got to put the CB-2 zone back in the text
before we close the public hearing on the text.
Champion: Can we send it back to Planning and Zoning to think of something else to do?
Franklin: You can if you wish to.
Champion: Okay.
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Franklin: So, assuming you get some reconciliation, November 15th is a continued public
hearing on the text. You open it. The hearing is closed.
Elliott: And the date on that?
Franklin: November 15th. Then you may do first consideration on the map and text at that
point in time. That would mean that you would have the 5th, the 10th, the 18th, the
1st, and the 15th for possibilities for input on the text and you would have the 18th
and the 1st for input on the map, which is kind of typical for what you have for
rezonings...and the 15th. Then, your second consideration pass and adopt, you'd
have to set meetings in December to make that come together before the end of
this Council's term. Got it?
Lehman: Okay.
Atkins: Before you more on, Emie...question? How does the Council before afforded an
opportunity amend something? Let's say I want to take forty-five feet and make
it forty? Where you have a motion, you have a second, and you have a vote.
Now, let's say the change is from forty-five to forty. That could have some
significant consequence, I assume, in the text because it could tipple through the
text. How do we deal with that under this scenario?
Franklin: As soon as the public hearing opens, that public hearing is on the Planning and
Zoning Commission's recommendation. As soon as that opens and you've had
time to intake, you can then propose an amendment on the floor for consideration.
What I would suggest is that you do that when those come to mind and see if you
have four people who agree with that proposed amendment. We will then need to
take it and figure out what the ramifications are in the code. So, I would not be
able to tell you that night exactly what the consequences of that change might
be"...but I will be able to tell you the next time I see you.
Atkins: Are you assuming then that it is fairly open the moment the Council sits as a
Council. Someone could make a motion and secure a second for change in text
language.
Dilkes: We can make amendments like we always make amendments. You put a motion
on the floor to give it first reading and then someone might propose an
amendment, etc. But because of the volume of this code this is not going to work.
We need to have at your work session discussions or at your public hearing
discussions, we need to figure out where the majority lies so that we can actually
make the changes in the text. We can not be making these on the floor. It's too
complicated.
Lehman: Eleanor, what you're telling me is that the motions for amendments and the vote
oe amendments will be during the public hearing prior to the close.
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!
Dilkes: No. You are going to have to give us an indication as to what it is that the
majority of you want to do.
Lehman: Then, after we close the public hearing we make the formal motion and that's
after we've already determined that there is support.
Dilkes: Right, and it very well may be at the time that we make that first motion we have
made the changes that are agreeable. Ideally it will be in a form that the majority
of Council is supporting.
Champion: I could say during the public hearing, 'Well, I agree with you. I think that lots
should only be twenty foot wide, does anyone else on the Council agree with
me?'.
Elliott: As we do at a work session.
Franklin: Right. I think, too, once we're into the public hearing mode and we're in a work
session, for instance, if you all have a concept that you want to have included in
and changed in the code, you can let us know at the work session, if there is a
majority, and we can do the same kind of work through that. At some point, at
the end of the public hearing, we need to enumerate and we'll keep track of those
and enumerate the changes that you have made to the Planning and Zoning
Commission proposal before you do your first vote so that everybody knows
who's on first.
Atkins: But we're doing this by straw vote.
Franklin: Initially. My concern is that you may do it by straw polling and that may read one
way and then
Bailey: Right, an amendment can go down one way but the package may not go the same
way.
Atkins: That's my point. The ripple effect may...you might say 'You know, this is not
worth it', or 'I really do like this because it has other...' - there's other
consequences.
Franklin: Let me share with you how Planning and Zoning did it, okay? Because they've
gone through this whole thing and had the same dilemma. They took that matrix
of 'these are the issues that are before you' and went through them one at a time
at a meeting and said 'Okay, where are we on this on, where are we on this one,
where are we on this one. What changes do we informally as a group agree or
disagree to change?'. It wasn't always unanimous. If there was a majority that
was in agreement on a change then they would do that change. If it was a
majority that said they're not going to do anything, then they left it. Then, at the
end you vote on that whole thing with whether you agreed or disagreed with each
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of these things as it went along. I don't know why we can't do the same thing for
you.
Champion: That's a good idea.
Lehman: Wait a minute.
Dilkes: I think the concern that Steve expressed...we're not going to take one little
change, make it, and then come back. We'll, at the end of the public hearing,
look at all those proposed changes, decide what you as a group want to do a
package and then we will make those changes.
Champion: But at a work session we could go through that matrix and there are some that we
are not going to change at all and have no inclination of changing and those could
be of the way and gone.
Lehman: What I'm hearing, I think, is rather than having eight separate amendments, on
those things that the straw poll indicates Council is willing to do, will all be
incorporated into one amendment, if you are.
Atkins: I guess you could do that, Ernie.
Franklin: It's addressing each one.
Lehman: We address each one as they come up but at the end of the process...
Franklin: Then you have an amended text. Planning and Zoning, after they went through
their public heatings and had this listing of the things that were raised and how
they were going to dispose of them - we then went through...the staff went
through and made the changes in the text. Here is the text with these changes
made based on your addressing one, two, three to fifty-four.
Lehman: Right, but does that require a motion to do that, to amend it?
Franklin: No.
Dilkes: No, we will probably make those changes and you will move to adopt it as
amended.
Elliott: Now, one of the things that might happen .... Karin, you were saying that as we're
going through this informally and determining whether there is support for
ckanges or not, you said that night you may not be able to provide us with a
comprehensive overview of what the repercussions might be and certainly it is
possible...I think it's probable that we may find support for something during the
public hearing, on an informal basis, and staff comes back to us pointing out what
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the repercussions would be and one or more might change their mind and that
might drop off the list.
Franklin: Could be. That's what we did with Planning and Zoning, too.
Elliott: This shows both the wonder of democracy and the inefficiency of democracy.
Franklin: Oh, it's never efficient.
Atkins: So, someone from your department will keep a tally and those will be summarized
in some fashion that allows the CoUncil to vote either collectively, if you're all in
agreement, or individually. Each of you could pull one out, much like the
Consent Calendar, and say 'I want a separate vote on this.' One other addition to
that, what about those issues that are not part of the matrix.
Franklin: Exactly, the matrix we have, that's done. That's aside. We will start a new one
and what I'm going to suggest is that we do that one based upon ideas generated
from the Council. Because, I suspect that we're going to hear from the public a
lot of what is in the matrix from P&Z. Your issues may be in response to those
particular ones too. But rather than start a matrix from every single comment that
is made by the public, because a lot of it is going to be repetition of what we've
already heard, then what we will do is start the matrix based upon what you
collectively tell us.
Atkins: I want to make sure that we all understand is that this new tally is what you have
to say. The person that comes to the microphone...that's not going to get
recorded, unless by straw poll you all say 'that goes on the list'.
Franklin: Yep. Okay, last thing about the code and then we don't have to talk about it until
Wednesday.
Atkins: One more thing. Go ahead, I'll wait, Eleanor.
Dilkes: I just think that we need to get through this first public heating without any of this
dialogue.
Atkins: That was my point. I really believe the public hearing on the 5th is clearly listen.
Franklin: Well, these guys said they wanted to have some sort of dialogue with these
people.
Atkins: You're not making any motions...you want to understand the position but it's
substantially a public hearing where you're there to hear what they have to say
about a proposal.
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Elliott: I would hope that it might be a situation where someone would come to the mic
and they would agree or disagree with what staff and P&Z has done and we
would ask someone from staff from P&Z to come up...
Atkins: I'm okay with that.
Elliott: It's different than the usual.
Atkins: I just think that the public needs to know that this tally, this list that is being
maintained is yours, not staff, not P&Z, not what the public...it may be influenced
by the public comment but staff and P&Z have already had a crack at it.
Dilkes: When I said dialogue, I meant a dialogue amongst yourselves about the straw poll
idea. I don't think we should be doing that at the first public heating.
Franklin: Okay, last thing. I've just given you an outline...this is for your assistance. If it's
not helpful to you, throw it away.
Wilburn: Recycle it.
Franklin: Of course, that's what throw away means. It tells you RS-5, RS-8, RS-
12...because this is the most confusing part. The changes in the code in terms of
size, lot width, whether you can have duplexes or not, townhouses or not, when
the garage placement standards come in to play and those are the same across the
board, whether there is any architectural design standards and density bonuses.
It's just to help you. If not, ignore it.
Champion: It is helpful.
Elliott: Karin, you're going to be here for a few more minutes?
Franklin: I'll be here for the rest of the meeting.
Elliott: Okay, good.
Lehman: Okey doke, thank you. Agenda items?
Agenda Items
ITEM 9. CONSIDER A RESOLUTION APPROVING THE THIRD AMENDMENT
TO THE PENINSULA NEIGHBORHOOD DEVELOPMENT
AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE CITY OF IOWA CITY AND PENINSULA
DEVELOPMENT COMPANY, L.L.C.
ITEM 10. CONSIDER A RESOLUTION DESIGNATING 143.52 ACRES OF TItE
PENINSULA PROPERTY AS PUBLIC PARKLAND.
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Elliott: Yeah, 9 and 10, as a matter of fact...Karin, when you're there...could someone
give me a broad overview of what it is that we're doing with these?
Franklin: Okay, this is relative to the dog park. Item 9...when we outlined the property that
was going to be part of the Peninsula Neighborhood...we initially had a part, after
extended negotiations with the Elks Club became an Elk Golf hole. I don't know
which it is...three, two, whatever.., and so consequently we configured the
property to have the same amount of property that could be used for density down
into the hillside and bottom lands of the Peninsula...the Peninsula being the larger
land formation...it's in that area, in Out lot N, in the preliminary plat in the
Peninsula neighborhood that the dog park is located. What this does is it enables
us...and it was always intended for open space and for public space, but it's used
as a density transfer for the upper part. What this does is it says that those...that
the developers who are part of our agreement agree that we can have a public park
there and that it can be a dog park...and that's it.
Dilkes: Technically, we have a development agreement that requires us to sell that to
them even though everybody contemplated that it was park land.
Elliott: This formalizes and finalizes what we have been discussing?
Dilkes: Yes.
Elliott: O!~:ay.
Franklin: Item 10 is just designating the Peninsula property, the lower part, as parkland.
Elliott: Okay, good. Thanks.
Lehman: Any other agenda items?
Item 4E(1) CONSIDER A RESOLUTION OF INTENT TO AMEND A PURCHASE
AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE CITY OF IOWA CITY AND WAL-MART
REAL ESTATE BUSINESS TRUST FOR APPROXIMATELY 21.76
ACRES OF PROPERTY LYING WITHIN LOTS 10 THROUGH 17 OF
NORTH AIRPORT DEVELOPMENT SUBDIVISION AND LOTS 2,
THROUGH 4 OF THE NORTH AIRPORT DEVELOPMENT
SUBDIVISION - PART TWO, AND SETTING A PUBLIC HEARING FOR
OCTOBER 18, 2005
Bailey: On the Consent Calendar for E1 - I'll just make a motion to request that that be
considered separately. It's setting a public hearing for resolution of intent to
amend the purchase agreement...page 3.
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Item 4(F)2 CONSIDER A RESOLUTION SETTING A PUBLIC HEARING ON
OCTOBER 18, 2005 ON PLANS, SPECIFICATIONS, FORM OF
CONTRACT, AND ESTIMATE OF COST FOR THE CONSTRUCTION
OF THE PARKING FIBER INTERCONNECT PROJECT, DIRECTING
C~TY CLERK TO PUBLISH NOTICE OF SAID HEARING, AND
DIRECTING THE CITY ENGINEER TO PLACE SAID PLANS ON FILE
FOR PUBLIC INSPECTION.
Elliott: And on E(2)...when we have things like this, can we have the cost provided
without having to look into back memos and that sort of thing?
Atkins: I hear you.
Vanderhoef: Yeah, and another little piece of that is whether the Senior Center went on that at
the same time or...the uuhh...the public television...
Atkins: This one is connecting Dubuque, Capitol, and Court Street. I'll check on the
Senior Center.
Vanderhoef: Isn't that the one that is connecting the parking?
Atkins: Yes. It's all parking.
Vanderhoefi That one is on Iowa Avenue, right?
Atkins: That one is already done. Tower Place is already connected. That's already been
connected to the fiber.
Vanderhoef: Then what location is this one?
Atkins: Court Street Transportation Center, Dubuque, and Capitol Ramp, okay?
Vanderhoef: So the others, I'm sure, were probably done at that same time. I was thinking that
if we hadn't done parking in Tower Place then had we done those others.
Item4(G)12 MEDIA QUESTION
Wilburn: I was wondering in correspondence Item #12 regarding the media question.
There wasn't a staff response to that. I was wondering if that was an item that we
could let Steve direct either the Human Rights Commission or the staff to
respond. It's a question about diversity and welcoming African Americans to
town. I was just wondering about some of the educational stuff and notification
about our human rights ordinance. It's for media publication.
Atkins: We'll take care of that.
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Item 4(G)8 OPEN BURNING
Elliott: Consent Item #8. Has the Council visited open burning before or do we need to
revisit that?
Champion: We don't have any open burning. It's illegal.
Atkins: We don't have it.
Elliott: You can have burning in containers, can you not?
Bailey: You can have open bonfires.
Atkins: You can have open bonfires but that's it.
Elliott: I noticed...one of the stores is selling a hug container with a screen over it.
Lehman: You can do that.
Elliott: Which is open burning.
Vanderhoef: B~,t they're not supposed to put garbage and such like in it.
Elliott: I didn't agree with the person but I thought the person had a very legitimate
concern.
Wilburn: We did discuss this about two years ago.
Atkins: It was truly a subject that you pummeled to death. (Laughter)
Vanderhoef: It's one of those things though that if it's anything other than wood or charcoal...
Bailey: That's annoying in the City limits though. IfI had wanted to smell like a
campground, I'd live on a campground.
Vanderhoef: But people burn wood in their home chimneys all the time.
Bailey: Bri. t I generally don't have my windows open generally in December when people
are burning in their fireplace.
Elliott: Well, anyway... I just raised the issue.
Bailey: But you said that it's handled on a complaint basis and somebody will come out
and find it.
Atkins: That's been our experience. It doesn't take it long to track it down.
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Vanderhoef: They need to call when it's happening.
Bailey: Right, of course.
Lehman: Okay.
Item 4(G)10 HISTORIC PRESERVATION COMMISSION APPEAL
Bailey: A~'~d on the letter...number 10...the Historic Preservation Commission Appeal.
What happens with that?
Dilkes: That will come to you.
Item 4(G)ll DOWNTOWN BUSINESS CONCERNS
Lehman: Then there's also a letter in the packet from Sylvia Venuto and also the
Alberhasky Eye Clinic relative to the difficulties with the sidewalk caf6
downtown. I don't think there's any question that there are significant difficulties
because of the way that it extends into the ped mall. I don't know that there's
anything we can do about that...
Atkins: Not this year.
Lehman: Yeah, until the permit is over. One of the issues with Sylvia is an addition to
imPacting the amount of pedestrian traffic that can get to her place, she's
prohibited from putting a sign of any kind because of the sign ordinance
encouraging people to come in and she's already been in court once. Can we
have a detour sign or something? It just seems that she's in a very difficult
situation as is Alberhasky and it appears that there's not a whole lot that can
happen until that permit expires.
Bailey: How much longer does the season last?
Lehman: At least another month or so.
Atkins: It's not uncommon to go into November.
Lehman: It really would be nice if there was some way that she could draw attention to her
restaurant legally. Obviously we go by the letter of the law and she can't have a
sign.
Champion: Why can't she do it illegally and we just all ignore it?
Lehman: Because we've cited her twice. She's got a $400 fine sitting down there. I don't
think it's unreasonable for her to want to get...
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Bailey: Some of the sign challenges though were before the caf6 was opened?
Lehman: Is there something we can do for her?
Atkins: I learned of the details of it today. I haven't figured out what we can do.
Lehman: Let the record show that the City Manager is going to handle it.
Elliott: Are we going to talk about these discussion items tonight?
Champion: Yeah.
Council Time
Elliott: Okay, Council Time.
Vanderhoef: On anything here?
Lehman: Yes.
Vanderhoef: Okay...I have...ahhh .... a request that I wish the Council would take a look at it
as the next district plan to be worked on. I'd like us to consider doing the
southeast part of Iowa City...in particular...ahhh...what we vision for south of
American Legion Road and Highway 6 and on east to Taft and everything in
between. We're growing pretty fast out there and we're looking at residential and
we're looking at industrial parks and I would like to get a plan put into place to let
people know what we're (TAPE ENDS)
Champion: I think we can talk about that or whoever is the new Council can talk about
it...but I don't think we're going to have time...staff is not going to have time to
worry about any district planning right now.
Vanderhoef: No. That isn't what I am asking, Connie. I am asking for staff to go through the
regular process that we go through to put together a district plan.
Champion: Now?
Vanderhoef: Well, they're completing some...they're completing the code...they'll be taking
up a new area at the start of the new year. This is the district that I would like us
to see put on the list for P&Z and planning to do next. We don't have district
plans for every place in the City, yet.
Champion: No, I know we don't.
Vanderhoef: That's the one that I'd like to put my finger on.
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Champion: I'd like to look at what other areas aren't planned yet.
Bailey: I would want to know what they thought they would do next. I agree with you,
it's growing quickly and we can't ignore it.
Vanderhoefi Some of the that...because of the railroad going through that property and US
Highway bordering it... I think sooner rather than later is important to get that one.
Atkins: How about we put it on a work session? That will give us time to see where we
are with the other...in the next couple of weeks we can give you a better idea and
respond more specifically to these requests.
Bailey: That would be good to know what's coming up and where it fits.
Atkins: That's what I mean...we'll show you what else is coming up.
Lehman: Staff may have some feelings on that.
Atkins: We just need to talk to them. We'll get it on your work session so you can at least
have an opportunity to talk about it.
Wilburn: I would suspect, too not only the district plans but our comprehensive plan that
some of the language in it may be directly impacted by what happens with the
zoning code since the zoning code is the tool that implements some of the
language in there.
Vanderhoef: S~' there may be some changes that go into that, oh yeah.
Atkins: We'll get that scheduled for a work session and get you some summary
information for it.
Elliott: I want you folks to know, my colleagues, that I have a book at home and the
names of six of you are in the book as 'weenies' because you didn't show up for
the walk on Sunday afternoon. Our illustrious Mayor was there, but the others
weren't. So, you're weenies. You might have excuses or reasons but you're still
weenies.
Champion: I was putting a roof on.
Bailey: I didn't even know about it.
Lehman: Any other Council Time?
DISCUSSION ITEMS
Lehman: Okay, Historic Preservation is the first one.
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Atkins: Just to get you back up to speed...remember that you had a list...you asked me to
go back and put them together and carve them up into discussion opportunities.
These were from that list. We did add Youth Advisory Board because two weeks
ago you all said you wanted to talk about that. We really don't have any specifics
prepared for you. We've got staff here to answer questions about these as best we
can.
Elliott: On this one... I had asked for this, I don't know if others had, too, but I would
like to meet with the Historic Preservation Commission because I think there are a
number of items to be discussed. I think there are some things perhaps that could
be done to make our Historic Preservation more effective and less controversial.
We don't have anything set. When something comes to the Council, do we go by
the number of property owners or the number of properties owned. There could
be a considerable amount of difference on that. Do we have at least an informal
agreement of what percentage of people in favor of it would cause the Council to
at least think very positively about it. It came up last time. Is it appropriate to
treat owner-occupied properties than properties that are not occupied by the
owner? There are just a number of things that I think need to be discussed
because the last time this came up it ended with a controversy and I thought kind
of a black eye for Historic Preservation and that shouldn't have happened.
Historic Preservation has to this point has been very good for Iowa City and I'd
like for it to continue...but I think we can at least discuss some possible changes
that would make it more effective, more productive, and less controversial.
Champion: My personal opinion is that people who live out of town and rent their properties
could care less about what the future of Iowa City neighborhoods is. To me,
personally, their vote doesn't count at much. It does when you go to a voting
bcath, but when I'm representing Iowa City it doesn't mean as much to me. I
don't think it was a bad eye for the Historic Preservation Commission. It just
didn't work that time. They did their best and the Council didn't agree with them.
I think you have to look at those things. We're here to represent Iowa City.
We're here to represent Iowa City neighborhoods and our vision for what Iowa
City should look like fifty years from now or even twenty years from now. So it
does mean more to me. I don't know how things are counted. I think it's the
number of properties...twenty percent of the number of properties not twenty
percent of the owners. Isn't that right, Karin? That's the problem because some
of the people who really objected to this have multiple properties over there. The
day we didn't pass this there was a house torn down for a parking lot...which is
even more degrading to the North Side Neighborhood because... I'm sorry but a
lot of people don't care what happens in the neighborhoods where they own
property. I think it benefits us to encourage preservation. I can tell you honestly
that I would not have bought my house if it was not in an historic district because
Summit Street was on the verge of just being degraded by property owners who
dCh't live there. I think its protection. It's economic protection for people who
are buying homes and for people who are even buying homes for investments.
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Elliott: Well, for one thing...there used to be, if my understanding is correct, there used
to be the Commission had worked from understandings that if you couldn't tell
the difference from the sidewalk or the street it was okay. Now that has gone by
the board or that's my understanding. There are some things like that that cause
me to wonder. Some things that happened in the rear of homes.
Champion: Karin, can you answer that? As far as I know, they're only supposed to be
concerned with what people can see from the street. Isn't that true?
Vanderhoef: That's the way that I understand it.
Franklin: Alot of the guidelines, and I can't say absolutely all of them, are within the
context of what can be seen from the public right of way. I wasn't prepared to
talk about this so I'd have to go back and look at all the guidelines to say exactly
which ones apply and which ones don't.
Dilkes: I think generally you think of it as being the exterior.
Franklin: Remember, sometimes there are public right of ways in the back...in some of
these older neighborhoods.
Lehman: Are some of those guidelines set for the Commission by the feds?
Franklin: There is a Secretary of Interior Guidelines which are broad strokes. There are
then guidelines that are adopted locally by the City Council that address what you
do in each of these districts...for historic districts and conservation districts.
Lehman: For example, we do not allow, if I understand this correctly, we do not allow vinyl
clad windows?
Vanderhoefi In historic districts.
Franklin: I don't know. It depends on if it's a key contributing structure...if it's a...one of
those other ones that is not key...it depends on if it's a conservation district or
historic district. It is fairly complex. What Bob is talking about.., or what I think
you were talking about.., was the creation of historic districts.
Elliott: Well, the creation and also one of the problems with the creation is that I think
there are some misconceptions out there about what can and can't be done and I
think it would be done to discuss what are the aspects that are laid upon us by the
federal and state government and then what are the things over which we have
some...I notice in the minutes that there have been times when people wanted to
put in more energy efficient windows which at least they indicated were quite
similar but were not allowed and they were being forced to patch up their old
wit~dows. It seems that some of those we need to look at and see if we can make
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this a little easier and still maintain the appearance...because all we're talking
about is a facade.
Bailey: We're also talking about integrity of the house. It's not quote 'just appearance',
it's also the integrity.
Elliott: But it's the facade.
Bailey: Yes, but with exterior integrity. It's not just appearance. You can't just slap
down anything that just looks good over it if everything beneath it would just
disintegrate.
Elliott: These are the kinds of discussions...because if appearance, from everything I've
seen, if you're talking about just a facade, it's the appearance.
Bailey: jUst the faqade? Just?
Champion: That's a lot.
Lehman: I think that you're both saying the same thing. If I'm not mistaken, Regenia, the
fafade may look good temporarily but not be in the long term best interest of the
property.
Bailey: Right, it's about preservation and I think that that is the critical component of
historic preservation. Because houses just looking good is one thing and
preservation is something different.
Elliott: Quality. If you had said quality...I agree with that. But if it looks the same then
what's the difference?
Bailey: If :t doesn't preserve, that's the difference.
Dilkes: The definition of change in appearance is any change or alteration of the exterior
features of a landmark of a building or a change or alteration of the appearance of
a property within a historic district or conservation district. This definition shall
pertain only to changes in appearance which are visible from the public way or
from adjacent properties.
Champion: Oh, well that's everything.
Lehman: That's everything.
Bailey: From all angles.
Vanderhoef: I have never heard them use that.
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Elliott: That last tag line...
Bailey: That's not typically applied though, it seems like.
Elliott: Yeah, but it's there.
Vanderhoef: Reading the minutes...
Champion: They're not applying it.
Vanderhoefi They are not applying other properties...they're applying being seen from a
public street or a public right of way, which a comer lot obviously has bigger
problems and they get into discussions and something from the back yard.
Franklin: We can, as we have done before, have a session in which you go over the
guidelines.
Bailey: It sounds like Bob wants to actually discuss this with Historic Preservation and
not necessarily comb through the guidelines.
Franklin: You can certainly have your meeting with Historic Preservation but what it comes
down to is that there are districts that are designated, there are laws that enables
the designation of those districts, there are guidelines that have been adopted. If
you want to change any of those, you have the power to change them. Maybe the
first step is to have that discussion with the Historic Preservation Commission and
have an understanding of where they're coming from.
Lehman: I think a discussion would facilitate a lot of things. First of all it would give
Council a better understanding of why the guidelines are what they are and there
may not be nearly as much of an issue with them as we think.
Franklin: Unless you use them regularly, it's difficult to talk .about specific issues like
windows.
Elliott: I really think...we don't have time to put this on our plate for the next few months
but I just think sometime we need to do it.
Bailey: Did we review and approve the guidelines when I first came on Council? There
was just a guideline revision and we went through this. We have done this
recently.
Wilbum: What I was going to get at...and I'm not trying to be insensitive to your
concerns...but if we are going to set up historic districts, if you're going to have
that designation and there's that quality of being historic, whatever it may be, you
are not going to eliminate controversy from it because by definition of setting up
that quality of being historic, there are going to regulations and someone is going
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to disagree with...they're going to want to do something that is not going to fit
the definitions of what that category or that state of being historic is ....
Elliott: I agree, because you're going to have that duel between individual property rights
and what the City considers for the greater good. That, if you want to call it
controversy, is always going to be there.
Wilbum: That's my only point. If you're going to set a historic district, whatever
guidelines you agree or disagree, and for it to still maintain some definition of
historic, there's going to be some controversy.
Elliott: And I would like to make it a little more clear what can be done and what can't be
done. Right now, for a historic district to be proposed, the onus is put on those
who oppose it to do something about it.
Champion: Well, how else would you do it?
Elliott: Those who propose it should have the onus put on them to get the...
Champion: Do you have any idea how much work they do? They do have the onus.
Vanderhoef: The onus is there in making the application.
Elliott: Yeah, they make the application but it's the City saying 'here's what is going to
happen, unless you folks do something about it.'
Lehman: Most of this could be probably cleared up with a session with Historic
Preservation at a work session.
Elliott: Fine.
O'Donnell: Do you know, Ernie, Bob asked a couple of interesting questions. One of them is
procedural. What percentage does it take? That's a very good question. Is it
51%? Another question is...
Dilkes: Wait a minute. This came up at the last...the historic preservation overlay. You
all know the 20% of the property within the area to be rezoned or 20% within the
two-hundred feed. That's by code. That's what forces a super majority. The
issue of where you might draw the line for yourselves...is up to each one of you.
There is no standard for that. There is no 51% or...
Franklin: What Mike is talking about is a national historic district. There is a national
historic district and there is a local historic district. A national historic
district...that thing comes in to play that if 51% of the property owners object, it
can not be designated or I don't know the words exactly. What we are talking
about most often is a local historic district. We had national historic district and
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local historic district for that Gilbert Street one that is still in everybody's craw.
That's what makes it confusing...because we had those two different processes.
Otherwise, designating a local historic district is like any rezoning in that if you
have a protest that 20% of the property is represented .... 20% of the property
within or within two hundred fee around the district is represented by protesters
then it requires an extraordinary majority vote. That's for a local historic district
which is a zoning measure. A national historic designation is the 51%.
Elliott: That came to my mind the other night.
Franklin: Owners.
Elliott: At a forum when one of the questions was if you had been on the Council would
you have approved or disapproved. One of the person said something about
everybody wanted it. Well, it turned out that a majority of the property owners
didn't want it and it just seems to me that it could be more clear to the public if
there were some kind of standards. I think we've talked plenty tonight.
Lehman: Why don't we schedule a meeting some time after we get through with the code
so you guys can deal with is next year. Let's take a quick break before we come
back to boards and commissions.
Boards & Commissions
Elliott: Youth Advisory Board.
Lehman: Yeah, and Bob you had wanted to talk about the process of boards and
commissions.
Elliott: Actually, in our materials, Marian and Eleanor put in there the information that I
wanted about what is required. I was...one thing, Eleanor, you could answer a
question for me. If a developer were to be on P&Z would he or she have to
recuse themselves only when they had a financial involvement or would it have to
do with anything involving development?
;
Dilkes: Probably not anything involving development but you'd have to look at each
conflict issue on it's own facts. Clearly...if that developer were the applicant or
someone he was in close association with and had a financial interest in, there
would most likely be a conflict.
Wilbum: I think you've also said that we have a higher bar in terms of conflicts of interest
than any of our boards and commissions. I thought you had made a statement to
that fact that there are things spelled out in the code about us that may or may not
be there.
Dilkes: I don't remember that.
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O'Donnell: I think I remember that, too, though.
Dilkes: Sure. I don't know. I'm not recalling that.
Elliott: Ernie, they spelled out the things. That came up because I always thought it was
unfortunate that we don't have developers and people who are involved in this
sort of thing day in and day out and know more about it then many people.
You've answered my question.
Lehman: Regenia has a proposal for the Youth Advisory Board. Regenia.
Bailey: I think this primarily summarizes the proposal that we received at the beginning
of September. So, I just sort of went through what the young women had
presented to us and developed a proposal for us to consider this evening. I
mentioned that I think it would be great if we had only one application for all
Iowa City boards and commissions and enabled people to apply regardless of age
if they're not governed by the Iowa Code and I think that that would create better
opportunity perhaps for young people to be involved if they so choose.
Elliott: I had a bit of a concern with your asking that an age be...that they could indicate
their age. I think there might be some people who would think that if they didn't
indicate it, there would be something against them and if they did there might be.
Champion: I don't think you legally can.
Vanderhoef: I don't think so either.
Elliott: I t!fink age and race are just protected categories that...
Bailey: Eleanor did mention this to me that it could...the possibility of age discrimination
but if the Youth Advisory Commission has some very specific age requirements
so we're going to have to collect that information for people who are applying for
that commission and I thought it would make sense to just have one application.
How many do we have now, Marian? How many different applications?
Karr: We have streamlined that. We were up to as many as eight different applications.
We've streamlined it down now to three different ones. We've tried to limit it to
that but we were up as far as eight.
Dilkes: I don't any problem with including it on the Youth Advisory Board because I
think you have specific articulated reasons why you're having that board and why
you need people of younger ages on that board. What concerns me about putting
the.. age on all applications when there is no...there has been no articulation for the
specific reasons why that's significant for that board... I think putting it on there
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i:
on a particular situation could raise the specter of age discrimination and I don't
think we want to do that.
Elliott: But I do like the idea of simplification wherever possible.
Champion: On some of those we do ask sex and race...for the Human Rights Commission but
boy, I don't think we can put age.
Bailey: Well, it would be nice to get some age diversity on some of our boards and
commissions.
Vanderhoef: But that's voluntary...those applications have that whole list of things and you're
not required to fill those in. One is in the HCDC where they talk about 'are you a
low-income' 'are you of a different sexual orientation' and those types of things
an':l that's strictly voluntary.
Dilkes: But also the difference is that with those particular commissions there are reasons
why you are looking for that. I don't think you can just say 'We want age
diversity across the board'...there has to be a lot more thought and rationalization
for it to get over an age-discrimination claim, I think.
Bailey: Can we remove the age requirement for all these commissions that are
mentioned?
Karr: So, you would like to remove the age requirement of 18?
Bailey: Yes.
Kart: So, you wouldn't have any requirement for age?
Bailey: Right.
Karr: Anyone could apply.
Bailey: Right, and if we don't have any age listed then we wouldn't necessarily know,
but...
Elliott: Is there a problem with someone who is not legally an adult serving in a capacity
on a commission?
Bailey: These are the ones that develop. There is a difference between the Iowa
Code...the ones that originate in the Iowa Code and the ones that originate with
us...but these are the ones that only refer to our ordinances as their originating...
Vanderhoefi 18 is the legal age for voting.
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Bailey: I know it's a challenge for non-profit boards to get people who are below the age
of 18 to be on boards that do policy work and govern. It is a challenge. I don't
know if it would work here or not. There aren't policy decisions necessarily
made.
Elliott: If it's appropriate, I'd certainly be in favor of it.
Dilkes: I don't think there is a legal problem with having an advisory board having people
under the age of eighteen on it. There are a couple of commission here, just in
terms of your thinking about this, are not purely advisory. In fact, the Police
Citizens Review Board is not advisory. It has it's own...the library...the library
is not listed but...I mean...on Regenia's list here...and Human Rights is
not...they have some advisory functions but they also have some other functions
that aren't advisory.
Bailey: I just started with ones that didn't originate in the Iowa Code. That's what we had
discussed.
Dilkes: Right. Certainly the purely advisory ones, I don't see any legal problem with
those.
Bailey: What about the Charter Review? I wouldn't want to sit on it if I were fifteen
years old, but hey.
Lehman: I d~n't think I would like a fifteen year old sitting on it. I really do not have a
problem with a Youth Advisory Commission. I would love to involve the young
people as much as we could, however, I really don't think it's advisable to have
people under eighteen years old sitting on our boards and commissions.
Bailey: Parks and Recreation? Public Art?
Lehman: Why can't the Advisory Commission work with Parks and Rec if they have an
issue?
Bailey: They absolutely could, but I don't...just as we don't put all the...excuse my
language...all the old people on the Senor Commission, I don't think we should
put all the young people on the Youth Advisory... I think we should provide
opportunities as we can.
Vanderhoef: Let me offer a possibility in all of this and part of this is experience of visiting
wlih youth on advisory boards as I go to state meetings and national
meetings...because some cities go as far as giving them a budget to do with as
they want.., and provide funding for them to go to the national meeting and state
meeting and involve them in that way...what I hear the young people excited
about is the idea that they pick a project and then they go and then enlist the help
of the appropriate commission or advisory board or whatever and they also are in
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a position where they can go and learn.., for instance, I used to call myself a
school board watcher. I just want to the meetings and listened and asked
questions separately from the meetings but I was there. I learned a lot that
way...and ask the young people are putting together their own commission, this is
what I would envision them looking to do is saying 'Okay, who's interested in
being the watcher for Parks and Rec?' 'Who's interested in being the watcher for
the library?' They certainly can learn a lot sitting in the meetings and certainly
speaking to members of the commission on their own and that's a good way to
start building some leadership in being able to approach people and find out more
about what's happening in their community. Certainly, when they want to do a
liai. son project with them, if they've been sitting at the meetings fairly regularly
anal they see the same face there.., and then that one comes and asks to be on the
agenda with an idea that the whole commission is behind them...they'll be
recognized. I think they'll get cooperation from the boards and commissions.
Bailey: I don't doubt that. Why I was suggesting no age restriction on any commissions
that we can possibly do is that I'm not going to presume what a young person is
interested in doing. He or she may be interested in sitting on the Youth Advisory
Commission or she or he may have a passion for parks and rec...if we could make
opportunity available, I think that that should be something that we do. It might
not come up.
Wilbum: So it's looking at trying to...if the City of Iowa City and the City Council wanted
to embrace the concept of young people helping make and guide decisions about
their community then can we look at where possibly can we can do this. My main
interest is establishing a Youth Advisory Commission. I'd love to have other
opportunities but I would also see value in...it may come up later on that young
people may decide that after having their liaison's observe and doing some
interacting and projects with different commissions, they may want to present to
the City Council 'Is is possible that we could open up the Parks & Recreation
Commission for a young person to serve on that.' I could envision that involving.
I would be open to it if others are interested now, but at a minimum I am
interested in getting a Youth Advisory Commission going.
Bailey: I thought that since we were talking about this we might as well lay it all out and
see where we wanted to go with it. Once again, to shuttle youth into a particular
preconceived notion... I think that's...when we preconceive for others what they
may or may not be interested in, I think that that's not a good thing...and opening
up other opportunities as we can allows people to choose.
Vanderhoef: The Youth Advisory may put themselves together with this number but invite
ott'ers who are not on the board... 'Boss, would you be my liaison to the Youth
Acvisory to Parks and Rec to get more youth involved in the whole process?'
Bailey: We also have to view this as a two-way street. Youth don't just learn from us.
We learn a lot from young people and I think that assuming that we're not going
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to learn anything or there isn't going to be value by putting them around the table
and saying 'jump in and be a decision maker'...I think...
Champion: We've done it. We did it with the skateboard park.
,.
Bailey: Right.
Champion: We didn't design the park, we got a group of youth to meet with Parks and Rec to
see what they wanted to do. I think the idea of an advisory group is good. I don't
disagree with Dee... I'm not going to have them just go sit at meetings because
they'll be bored to death with that...but they could come up with a goal that they
have as a group and maybe it will be a Parks and Rec thing, maybe it will be a
library thing...who knows...it may be something entirely that we haven't even
thought of...then as a group they could approach that commission or approach us
on what they do next. So, I think the commission itself has some validity. I think
it has to evolve and see what happens with it.
Elliott: If we need to go a first time, that's fine. I would be interested in discussing, as
Regenia has brought up, the whole ball of wax. If we need to take a first step first
then I am in favor of that...but Iowa City is Iowa City because of 17, 18, 19, and
20.1year-olds. Historically, that's why we are Iowa City... and I think that it's
really incumbent on us to involve people of that age in the process of discussion
and exchanges and making plans and following through and actually voting on
them. I'm in favor, however we want to start...let's start, let's go.
Wilbum: I even like the idea that Dee brought up that mentioned some other communities
do with their youth commissions. If at some point as they get going or learn the
process, we can build in some small budget amount for them to even make
decisions on whether it's choosing funding some...deciding whether some
particular youth agencies or the schools funding projects that could generate other
ideas.., we get the youth human rights awards.., we've had all kinds of young
people doing projects that impacted the globe.., so having them being able to do
with some seed money to do some projects...I just think the possibilities are...
Champion: The school district does have high school students on their equity committee, so
it's not unheard of to have them making decisions and giving input...but I'd like
to start with the commission and see what they can come up with.
Baeth: There are requirements on these commissions that impede young people from
applying...for instance the term limits...the expected length of your term...you're
going to have a seventeen year old apply for a four-year position, it's really going
to stop them from doing that.., even if they are allowed to. That's another thing to
think about.
Bailey: We have to acknowledge that people apply and there lives change regardless of...
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Wilburn: I think their original proposal that they presented to us they talked about a two-
year term.
Bailey: They did definitely talk about that because they know how quickly lives can
change.
Elliott: AUstin, we have people very year...there's usually somebody who drops off of a
coinmission because they move, they leave town, they have other responsibilities
or something. While we're talking about terms.., do all of the commissions and
boards have the same length, except for P&Z? P&Z is five. That's something
that I would like to see simplified. P&Z with a five-year term...and if, Ernie, one
of the first things you told me is that usually the Council has an unwritten
agreement that if a person wants to apply for a second term, they get it. Ten years
is a long time to be on P&Z.
Lehman: I think that's right...I also...there are some commissions that we don't get
applicants because the terms are too long. Many, many times the second term on
a board or commission...that person is far more valuable to that commission
because they're far more familiar with what goes on...but a ten-year commitment
is a long time.
Elliott: That's why I'd like to see something like three years terms and then by the time
th~:/you've been on there three years, you have become a pretty valuable member
and three more years would be reasonable...but if you've done five...
Karr: The ones that are mentioned by State code, their terms are set by State code. We
don't have that latitude.
Elliott: Is P&Z set by state code? Good.
Bailey: Well, and I would say that after going through this new zoning code...five years
is probably the learning curve. (Laughter)
Wilbum: What about for the...Regenia had kind of summarized the proposal for the
structure. Are there any comments about... ?
Elliott: These were the three young people who appeared before us, right? That was a
neat time.
Dilkes: I've got a question about how the age requirement is going to work. Do they need
to be that age when they apply or must they be within fifteen to twenty-one for the
entire length of their term? How are we going to do that?
Bailey: I think when we informally discussed it, people who extend beyond the age period
they thought they would only serve one period. So, if you are twenty-one when
you apply, you get one term.
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Karr: Sci' if you are fifteen when you apply, you could then apply for the older term
when you got done with the first term?
Bailey: Yes.
Dilkes: So, we'll look at the age at the date of application.
Bailey: We briefly discussed that and so I'm not sure that...
Champion: Age of application or age of starting to be on the commission? Because
sometimes there's a couple months difference.
Vanderhoef: Age at appointment.
Bailey: Yeah, that would be good.., and I think that the group that I was talking to were
cox~fortable with that concept now.
?
Champion: Age at appointment is how that should read.
Lehman: IfI read this correctly, there are six members between fifteen and twenty-...which
means that all six could be nineteen.
Champion: No, because two will be designated for eighteen to twenty-one.
Lehman: Right but you could have the entire board be nineteen years old.
Bailey: They did want to get some under. They did want to get some younger.
Lehman: Instead of 15-21 - why wouldn't it be 15-18 and the 18-21...then you assure you
the cross...
Bailey: I (hink that would be clearer way to write that, I agree...because that was a real
concern to allow fifteen and sixteen years old.
Dilkes: I missed that.
Karr: The age of appointment.
Bailey: So, four members between the age of 15-18 and two seats would be designated
for members 18-21 for a total of six members on the commission.
Dilkes: Four members 15-18.
Elliott: No, six members 15-18, two members 18-21.
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Bailey: Er, 15-17.
Dilkes: Four members 15-17 and two 18-21 for a total of six.
Elliott: Oh, so you're changing yours.
Bailey: The intent was to get young...
Baeth: The only problem is that you may have an empty board. You may have only 19
year olds who want to apply and then you'll only have two seats filled.
Wilbum: Yeah, we have that with...not age related but we have unfulfilled spots on
commissions or a missing architect or whatever on a certain...
Kart: But it affects a quorum. I think that is what Austin is thinking. You have
potential quorum issues.
Dilkes: We could provide that it could be waived for lack of applications or something to
th~l effect.
Elliott: I would like to move forward with it.
Champion: I do, too.
O'Donnell: It's a good idea.
Wilburn: Question about the staffing.
Champion: Yeah, I was going to bring that up. I don't know...I'm torn between...I see
benefit when we had.., about whether there's Council or staff...I saw the benefit
with the University liaison with the student senate with council members in that
but it seemed to me that because Council comes and goes.., for consistency it
might be helpful to have a staff member as well.
Bailey: Tb:at's three adults in the room.
Champion: I don't really think it needs to be two Council people. Just one.
Elliott: The Senior gets one.
Lehman: I think that two Council people can be - er, one - tremendous interaction between
those two. That is really key.
Elliott: I think, as Regenia said, it's not what they learn from us any more than what we
learn from them.
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Dilkes: I think that one is the advantage in that you're not going to have open meetings
issues. Once we get a committee of two that serves as the liaison...those two are
interviewing...we're going to have open meetings issues. I guess they could
interview separately and we wouldn't have that problem.
Bailey: You could do one Council member and a back-up and they could rotate. Couldn't
they?
Dilkes: Right, sure.
Vanderhoef: What I have seen with the folks that come to convention is that there is one very
strong staff person that is a very energetic kind of person and probably in the 35
and under age group and certainly they have enrolled parents involved in all of
th~it, too, for staff liaison and working with them.
Elliott: I just have a concern about assigning staff. We already have staff assigned to a
whole lot of meetings and that all costs money.
Bailey: I think the idea, and I think this also came from the group, is that it would connect
them more closely with Council and they would feel more comfortable in that
they would get more coaching in how to approach Council and those kinds of
things, which is different than working with staff.
Elliott: I'd like a Council person rather an a staff person.
Bailey: It could be two to switch off or rotate as those two choose with the understanding
of the meetings requirement, I suppose.
Dilkes: Hew about a Council person working with a staff person? Because the staff
person is going to have to .... because somebody is going to have to do the
posting...you know all the stuff that has to happen with meetings and has to
happen. I suppose by default that's probably going to be Marian...but I think
that's what Ross was getting at.
Wilburn: I think that's what I was getting at.
Vanderhoef: This is definitely an addition of a staff person's time and certainly working with
young people you have to adjust your time when they are available also. It's
going to be some cost.
Bailey: Which is why I put it on Council, honestly, I didn't think staff needed to take on
any more. But, I think the posting requirement...
Wilburn: Kind of the more I thought about it...that makes...
Bailey: D~es that mean that staff have to be at every meeting and all that kind of stuff?.
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Dilkes: Typically the staff member is but...
Bailey: I think I just felt reluctant in this memo and I think assigning...
Elliott: I think they could do their own minutes.
Champion: They could have a secretary...they could pull a secretary out of their group to
keep the minutes but Marian could still...all they'd have to do is let her know
when the next meeting would be and she could post it.
O'Donnell: Who knows, they might even be more efficient than we are. (Laughter)
Elliott: How could they be less efficient?
Lehman: What do we need to move this along?
Dilkes: A lot of times the staff member at the meeting serves the function of identifying
issues...meetings issues...there are things that come up...but we can give it a try
and see what...
Bailey: I'm open.
Karr: I think the other thing is...that sometimes, with all due respect, you can get a
really good strong Council member who's familiar with open records and open
meetings and things and then next time you may get someone who perhaps
doesn't have the same background and then the group is really caught in an
awkward situation and that's not a...
Elliott: That sounds like the voice of experience.
Karr: I'm just saying there is an advantage in having a staff and a Council
member...because this will be an appointment that I'm guessing you'll make
every two years. (TAPE ENDS)
Lehman: What's the next step, Regenia?
Bailey: I don't know...what is the next step?
Dilkes: We'll do a resolution creating the commission.., establishing it... and then we'll
have to do bylaws and then we'll set up the first...well, we'll set up the first
meeting and then we'll probably do the bylaws.
Karr: We'll probably have to establish the commission, then we're going to have to do
applications because we won't have any appointments...we won't have anything
to meet on until you have the bodies there.
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Bailey: Can bylaws be their first item of business?
Elliott: Yes.
Bailey: Poor kids. (Laughter)
Vanderhoefi We'll find out how dedicated they are.
Lehman: Okay, that looks like a go. What is the street naming?
Street Namin~
Elliott: Street naming... I brought that up. We have streets that are...let's see... I'm trying
to think...we have streets that anyway...that turn direction and become another
street.
O'Donnell: Burlington and Grand...where you go across...
Elliott: Yeah, but to mc it doesn't make sense. If I'm driving in a city and I'm on a street
and all ora sudden I think 'Oh my god, I must have missed a turn because I'm on
another street.' I would like to have a street to have a name and keep thc name as
long as it's the same street. It gets brought up by the...what's the name of the
street that's going to be...
Atkins: M~'.;Collistcr.
Elliott: McCollister.
Atkins: That's one you don't like.
Elliott: I don't mind McCollister...as a matter of fact, Captain Irish Parkway, I thought it
would be great to have that name. But why can't we just have a street named...
Franklin: Well, 'cause. (Laughter)
Elliott: Thank you.
Franklin: Let's just look at Mormon Trek Boulevard. When it comes from Coralville from
Highway 6...it was First Avenue in Coralville, of course.
Lehman: Bt~t then it crossed and changed names.
Franklin: Yes. You come South on Mormon Trek from Highway 6 and you're going north
south.., so you go south and then it curves around and starts going east west
towards the airport. Well, if you continue that on east west and then it curves and
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it hits Scott Boulevard and becomes Scott Boulevard and then Scott Boulevard
goes north and it kind of curves around and hits Dodge Street. So...let's say
that's all called Mormon Trek Boulevard and there's a fire...and it's on Mormon
Trek Boulevard. Well, yeah, okay, we probably can now with 911 and the
numbers and kind of narrow it down but do you go...
Wilburn: Well, a visitor to town. I live on Mormon Trek Boulevard.
Franklin: Yeah, I've gone all the way around the town and I haven't found your house yet.
Pardon me?
O'Donnell: Tl?at's why we were given block numbers.
Wilbum: But if you're from out of town, though, you don't know.
Franklin: Well, what we try to do is have north south and then if something does continue
east west and then north south that we change the names...but you can do
whatever you want...but that's just the rationale for it. We do have a street
naming policy.
Lehman: Oh tell us, please.
Franklin: It's a stitch. (Laughter)
Vanderhoef: What year was it done?
Franklin: I d >n't know. I can't figure that out. The southeast quadrant is Indian names.
The southwest quadrant is flowers, minerals, and songbirds. The northwest
quadrant is Iowa towns. The northeast is also pioneer and historical names...or
names associated with the Writer's Workshop...we don't pay attention to this at
all. When a developer comes in, they put a name on the streets that are in their
subdivision. If there is another street in the community or neighboring
community that has a similar name that is going to kind of put off emergency
services...then we suggest that they change the name of that street to make it
more remarkably different. For instance, in Hunter's Run, there's a number of
streets that have like wildlife...then Southwest Estates is Phoenix and Sante Fe
and Pueblo and other things. So, those are all names by the sub dividers. We do
the arterial streets. McCollister was... I would like to have changed it at Highway
1 because that's when it started to go...but I was prevented from doing so.
Elliott: Who was the bad guy?
Atkins: Wi ioa...whoa...whoa...I didn't catch that. What dastardly deed did I do?
Franklin: I was just explaining about changing Mormon Trek to McCollister and how it
probably should have happened at Highway 1.
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Lehman: Right.
O'Donnell: I totally agree with that.
Champion: I C,~o, too.
Atkins: I lost it for a minute.
Lehman: See if you can get it back.
Elliott: Next topic.
Lehman: No, I do think...we did at one time on the west side...was it Abor Drive? It was a
drive that was intersected by a park and we had two different names...
Vanderhoef: Abby and Abor.
O'Donnell: We did it with Whetherby, too, remember?
Vanderhoefi Th,at was a developer request.
Elliott: In driving around the country you see that cities have loops and the loop doesn't
change.
Atkins: Think of Court Street and Washington. It stops and starts and stops and starts.
Champion: Does it ever...right.
Vanderhoef: Trying to give directions...
Atkins: Is difficult.
Vanderhoefi If you find it on the map one place and you don't know which spot...
Lehman: I guess we haven't accomplished anything there...but at least we learned the
cri:~eria from the dark ages.
Vanderhoef: Birds and flowers.
Sidewalk Repair Proeram
Lehman: Okay, the sidewalk repair program... Steve, would you like to tell us briefly. We
have a five, six, seven year rotation?
Atkins: Ten year.
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Lehman: Ten year. Alright. Rick, you've been waiting all night for this...we could have
put you up a long time ago.
Fosse: It's okay...it's all been interesting.
Vanderhoef: You've gotten your chuckles for the evening, have you? We're better than
tel:Svision.
Fosse: In '97 we put in place the sidewalk inspection program. Prior to that it was purely
on a complaint basis. Part of the reason for going to a regular program was to just
be proactive in providing good pedestrian facilities and also it provides better
defense to trip and fall suits when we're being proactive.., that's kind of the
standard that was set by case law in Iowa. So, we've divided the city into ten
areas. We're careful not to split up neighborhood associations. We keep those
together so that we can get the word out in advance and we inspect roughly a
tenth of the city per year. On the average we mark about 750 properties within
there...and those sidewalks are repaired. Of those 750 about 75% of them get
those done on their own and 25% of them have the City do the repairs. There are
some things that the City does repair for and that is if a tree root causes a problem
or if it's caused by a man-hole or water valves.., something like that. We also
take care of the curb ramps and where there are over width sidewalks...those that
ar~ eight or ten feet wide...most of them are eight...we pay for half the cost of
th(:'se repairs.
Elliott: You said that if a tree root causes the problem...the City takes care of it?
Fosse: If it's a City tree.
Elliott: Oh.
Fosse: If it's a private tree, it's not.
Elliott: Okay. Are there other objective criteria such as how much variance from one slab
of concrete to the next requires...
Fosse: We've got a worksheet that we send in the field with our inspectors. It's got six
different criteria that they look at. You're welcome to a copy of this if you'd like.
Elliott: Nc.
Lehman: It works pretty well, doesn't it, Rick?
Fosse: It does. It does.
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October 3, 2005 City Council Work Session Page 44 of 53
Lehman: You get some attention from folks who don't like the attention but we have
pe .)ple in wheelchairs, people in walkers, we have people with disabilities and I
think it really behooves us to make sure our sidewalks remain in good repair.
Fosse: We have one more year and we'll be done with the first ten...the first go-around.
It will be interesting to see in the second go-around how much has gone bad in
that ten-year period. I expect that our numbers are going to drop.
Elliott: The problem is...the difficult question to respond to is when someone says 'The
City has called or left me a notice and I'm forced to repair my sidewalk. Why do
the people across the street...who don't even have a sidewalk.., and the City says
nothing to them?' It makes no sense at all to me. If you have a sidewalk you
have to keep it in repair.
Lehman: If you got it, it can't be broke. If you don't have it, you can't break it.
Atkins: Bob, the City may have, at the time the land was subdivided, specifically chosen
no::: to put a sidewalk in.
Elliott: I know there are reasons but I'm just saying that that is a pretty difficult concern
to respond to.
Fosse: Also, in past years up until the mid to late 1980's the City was fairly aggressive
about doing assessment projects to fill in those gaps and put sidewalks where
there were not. Those projects fell out of favor and we've not returned to those.
Elliott: We have sidewalks in all developments, now, do we not?
Fosse: Yes, we do.
Vanderhoef: Okay, my neighborhood is one ofthem...is the neighborhood that got marked this
year. What I became aware of, which I had heard a little bit from some
ne!ghborhoods that they were trying collectively put together a project for one
pe'son to come and fix it. I can tell you the estimate that I got on my four blocks
individual squares that need to be mud jacked or whatever... I got an estimate of
over six hundred dollars for it...so it's far cheaper to have the City do it and the
assessment. My question to the group is... is this something we should explore
that is an opt-out program and schedule it in certain areas and have the City do it?
Lehman: Absolutely not. We've got all kinds of private contractors out there who make
their living pouring concrete.
Vanderhoef: At $600?
Lehman: No.
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October 3, 2005 City Council Work Session Page 45 of 53
Bailey: Wow, that's so strange...because in our neighborhood is was $50 a square
because somebody really wanted the job and he got a bond.
Champion: What was six hundred dollars?
Bailey: The estimate for four squares.
Champion: The estimate for four squares. Wow, I had my whole sidewalk replaced for
$1800. That's a heck of a lot more than four squares.
Vanderhoef: That's just it. They don't want to come out for just four squares.
Bailey: That's why we got such a great price because they were doing the neighborhood.
Elliott: That's one of the reasons why doing it a district at a time is helpful because on
our street we had a couple driveways done, there must a dozen squares done and I
know the first bid I got...the second guy came around and he did it for less than
half that price and he did a very good job.
Lehman: Bt':t these contractors look. In our neighborhood we had one guy go door to door
on Mother's Day...I wasn't home that day but he knocked on every house and
had them mark them and he did almost all of Wylde Green and all over the west
side. He did the work for about two-thirds or less than what it cost me to have a
couple replaced a few years earlier.
Fosse: There's definitely economy of scale when you're dealing with that type of work.
There's good contractors, marginal contractors out there and the key is just doing
your research and hiring a good one.
Vanderhoef: Do we have a list or anything in housing inspection or anything of small
contractors that want these kind of jobs?
Fosse: I don't know off the top of my head. I can check on that and follow up.
O'Donnell: It' ~ called the phone book.
Champion: Yeah, I don't think we should be giving out lists.
Fosse: Some of them literally follow our inspectors around.
Lehman: Right.
Vanderhoef: Really?
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October 3, 2005 City Council Work Session Page 46 of 53
Fosse: Yeah. Then if the City does the repairs we hire that out. We take bids...so it's
not City crews out there doing it unless it's around a manhole or something like
that then sometimes we have the streets department do it.
Champion: People would be knocking on your door...we had people knock on our doors.
Bailey: We had door hangars...they were doing a lot.
Vanderhoef: We had ours done about eight weeks ago and a not a soul.
Lehman: Okay, thank you, sir.
Atkins: Stay there, Rick.
Private Alleys
Lehman: Make alleys private.
Elliott: I would like to see the City make all alleys private.
Champion: All alleys should be private.
Lehman: Like downtown?
Champion: No.
Elliott: Well, downtown may be something different...but I think if a developer wants to
have alleys it ought to be private. If people are told 'It's your alley, you pay for
it, you keep it going'.
Champion: We can't afford to keep up alleys.
Fosse: Are you talking in the context of new alleys or retrofitting the old ones?
Elliott: Well, no. Everything from now on.
Vanderhoef: For sure.
Lehman: They're all private from now on anyway, aren't they? Isn't that the what code
says?
Atkins: He's getting the book out.
Elliott: We're there!
Lehman: AMght, we're done with it.
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Franklin: That depends.
Elliott: Oh...okay.
Bailey: So every time -
Lehman: So, make your argument every time it comes up.
Vanderhoef: Or put it in the code.
Elliott: I would just think it would be so much easier...if you want an alley, it's your
alley.
Franklin: That was some of the public input that you received about the zoning code that
thc y did not want you to make all alleys private. I'm just pointing that out.
Vanderhoef: We understand that...but we don't want the cost of double maintenance on alleys
and streets.
Bailey: I think it's good voting the way it is. The word all always makes me...
Champion: Right. The other thing, do alleys have to be cement?
Franklin: Or asphalt...within a certain dimension.
Bailey: There are some gravelly alleys around.
Franklin: The old ones are a mess.
Lehman: A1 fight.
Old Bus Depot
Lehman: Old Bus Depot.
Atkins: If I could make a couple of quick comments, Ernie, before you start the
discussion. We had, and this precedes me, a long-standing policy that this block
where the City Hall sits, the block where Chauncey Swan Parking Garage sits,
and the Rec Center would ultimately be City ownership. We own everything but
the church and the transformer location next to the parking garage right off of the
park.
Elliott: The church?
Atkins: Yes. United-
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October 3, 2005 City Council Work Session Page 48 of 53
Elliott: Oh, on the other side of the street.
Atkins: No. It's adjacent to our parking lot.
Elliott: Oh, that's right.
Atkins: The Universalist Church.
Elliott: I ¥"-as going the other way.
Atkins: Okay. We've gone over this on a couple of occasions and just a couple of
recommendations that we have for you. One is that we really strongly encourage
you to keep it public. Don't sell it. It does provide a very high-profile,
downtown, publicly owned site that could be used sometime in the future for a
municipal building such as a communications center, if we went to a joint
communication center. That doesn't mean you can not use the site that is
currently there for some other purpose where we in effect would be the landlord.
We encourage you not to sell the ground. We've had all kinds of ideas put forth.
That's about it. The rest of it's pretty much open.
Vanderhoef: Oh, I had one question...I remember asking it years ago...but...what's the
approximate cost to move that transformer? It's expensive.
Atkins: I've heard a million dollars. We just simply haven't chosen to...right now it's not
in '~,he way of anything. Someday it should go.
Lehman: Okay, how about the gas station. What are we going to do with it?
O'Donnell: Has the area been cleaned up?
Bailey: Yeah, what's the environmental -
Atkins: Well, cleaned up...it's been tidied up.
O'Donnell: I mean underground with leakage and so forth.
Atkins: I don't know if we did any tests on that or not, Joe?
O'Donnell: We could be looking at a substantial bill to do that.
Atkins: So you know...it is a parking asset. It's part of the parking fund. It's got a sordid
history. You Smash 'Em is underneath it. We own that. That's a lot of money to
have the removed. We own the Wilson Building. The old bus depot...
O'Donnell: Kelly's Cleaners?
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Atkins: That, I don't know.
Bailey: What was it?
Atkins: Kelly's Cleaners?
Elliott: Yeah, that used to be down there.
Atkins: It's had a bug infestation...which we deal with...if you were going to put it out
for some proposal for private purposes, I can probably pretty safely assure you to
m~,:ke it presentable it's going to cost us.
Lehman: Can we have consensus that we want to retain that in public ownership?
O'Donnell: Oh, sure.
Vanderhoef: Yes.
Champion: I have a little bit of a problem with it because I'd like to see it back on the tax
rolls but I can go along with the majority.
Elliott: Could that be a location for the Shelter House and have the City own the
property?
Champion: Shelter House looked at that and to have the City own the property...I think we'd
get in trouble.
O'Donnell: It's not nearly big enough.
Champion: It's big enough. The problem isn't...it's not big enough. The Shelter House
would need the gas station, the cute little gas station...the Wilson Building and
the Parking Lot that the Chamber uses. We actually had an architect look at that
spot when the idea first came up for a new Shelter House. The architect said it
would cost a million dollars just to get the land ready to build on.
Elliott: Just to prepare to build?
Champion: The Shelter House can not afford to do that. They could do it if the City gives it
to them.
Elliott: My thought would be that we're going to continue to have serious problems
tip:ling a location for the Shelter House and that would be such an ideal location.
Champion: It would be a great location. Shelter House agrees.
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Lehman: I don't disagree with that...but if you want a municipal campus and we're already
pushing the walls out in the police station and fire station and we're going to have
a communication center...we really, really don't want to take the heart out of
what we have left and give it to some other use.
Champion: It won't work anyway...it's way too expensive.
Lehman: Right, that discussion is over.
Bailey: Some people approached me about this concept of an expanded Farmer's
Market...potentially an indoor Farmer's Market on that location and closing down
the bridge on College Street and then having, if you wanted covered, then taking
the second floor of the parking ramp for the Farmer's Market...because we have a
waiting list for our Farmer's Market. The possibility of economic development
for the County and surrounding counties to bring local foods...the buy fresh, buy
local and those kind of things.
Elliott: What did you say about closing down the bridge?
Bailey: For Wednesday or Saturday market. Have you ever been to the Des Moines
Farmers Market? It's like three or four blocks.
Elliott: You mean temporarily, as you close the street for Homecoming or something.
Bailey: Temporarily, yeah.
Champion: I like that idea. I would love to see the Farmer's Market at City Park...with all
kinds of things...food vendors, farmers, art...
Bailey: There are people who are interested in exploring that possibility.
Atkins: The biggest difficult you have in expanding Farmer's Market... and staff thought
it was a neat idea...it's getting those four hundred people in that parking garage
out in time for an evening...
Bailey: The challenge right now to Farmer's Market, if any of you ever attend on a
W~dnesday or a Saturday, is that it's such a narrow aisle and I can show you
pe: manent injuries from strollers on my leg.
Lehman: I think it's cozy.
Bailey: Oh.
O'Donnell: I love that Farmer's Market. I think it's neat. I've never been hit by one stroller.
Bailey: I'll have them put the target on your back.
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Bailey: I think it could use some expansion and it's a social meeting place and you don't
have an opportunity to really stop and talk.
Champion: I'm not really sure that's the place to do the expansion.
Bailey: Up on the second floor?
Champion: I don't think you can get the cars out of there.
Atkins: We'd have to figure that out.
Bailey: Well, you know, that's only an option. If you want the covered option. If you
want to be out...and I haven't talked to farmers...I was going to meet with some
people I know.
Champion: You could do a Saturday Farmer's Market. It would be easier. Then you could
do the whole upper part of that. I think there are ways to expand it. I'd
personally love to see if City Park which is a huge...
Bailey: I like it in our...people come from after work and it's more centrally located.
Champion: I love it, too, and I think expanding it is a good idea, but I don't know how you
ex~and it during the week.
Lehman: What do we do with it in the winter time?
Champion: They don't meet in the winter time.
Lehman: No, no...the building.
Bailey: The concept of the year round farmers market... Sioux City is doing this. There
are meat producers and other people who are using greenhouse production right
now.
Lehman: Yeah, I saw that.
Champion: I absolutely don't have any problem with expanding the Farmer's Market.
Atkins: Wmt I'd like from you...if there are a couple...two or three ideas that you'd like
us to explore, we'll staff those and bring those back to you. It sounds like there is
some interest.
Vanderhoef: There was a cute little gas station idea...and it made me start thinking about
where could it be moved so that that property could be -
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Lehman: No.
Bailey: It's just brainstorming...it's okay.
Lehman: You move it with a bulldozer, Dee.
Champion: No, wait a minute...wait a minute...
Vanderhoef: No...we've got the space and we've got our safety village with all our young
people and I think that would...
Atkins: Joe is being shy...but one of the questions is would it fall apart if we tried to
move it?
Fowler: I think it probably would, yeah. The tax assessment lists the condition of the
building as poor.
Elliott: Gc od.
Vanderhoef: Then I think it's time to bulldoze it now and -
Champion: No, you can't do that yet. I want it looked at more seriously than that. If nothing
else can be done to it, I'm not against that. But, I do think that it should be looked
at from a historic preservation background...and if it's possible, it would be a
great place to have a communications center.
Atkins: That was one of the issues...I don't know if you know...of course I would hope
you would know...the Wilson Building is storage. It holds evidence. It's secure
because we don't really have anything in this building. If we were going to build
a communications center there, I would ask or seek approval to put storage in
their.
Bailey: She wants to use the gas station as the front of the communications center,
thc' ugh.
Lehman: Can we have or do we have an inspection report on that property giving us the
deficiencies and strong points or whatever.., can we get that?
Atkins: We can get that.
Lehman: Why don't we get that first of all...that will give us a good idea.
Bailey: We should get a sense of the Wilson Building, too.
Atkins: We believe the You Smash 'Em, Wilson's, and the Gas Station...
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Vanderhoef: And the transformer.
Atkins: Hold off on the transformer because it's not going anywhere. It's one of those
thi~ag...the Wilson Building kind of leans on one...which leans on the other.., and
let~ns on the other...I think, Rick, if you pull the right bricks out you could
probably have a pile of rabble for the whole comer. Rick has already done some
estimates on demolition and it's extremely expensive.
Champion: That's why sometimes it's better to historically preserve them.
Atkins: That's a good point.
Lehman: Alright.
Elliott: That would provide information as to whether or not it is solid enough to be
moved.
Atkins: We'll have someone do a walk though.
Champion: If ilhe building itself is not salvageable...don't know what salvageable
moans...but that fafade...maybe historic preservation would want to put it
somewhere or store it. I think...
Bailey: It's a striking example of the thirties.
Atkins: Yeah.
Lehman: Alright, guys.., go pull the right brick and see if it falls.
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