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HomeMy WebLinkAbout2001-04-19 Transcription April 19, 2001 Special Work Session Page 1 April 19, 2001 Special Work Session 8:30 AM All PCRB present Council: Lehman, Champion, O'Donnell, Vanderhoef, Wilburn, Pfab, (Karmer arrived 8:55) Staff: Atkins, Helling, Karr, Holecek, Winkelhake, Bauer, Johnson, Widman Others: Pugh TAPES: 01-44 Lehman/Let' s get started, before we start so that everybody knows everybody why don't we go around the table and introduce ourselves, I'm Ernie Lehman, Mayor. Wilburn/Ross Wilbum, Council Member. Paul Hoffey/Paul Hoffey with the board. John Watson/John Watson with the board. Leah Cohen/The board. John Stratton/John Stratton with the Board. Vanderhoef/Dee Vanderhoef with the Council. Pfab/Irvin Pfab Council. Lauren Horton/Lauren Horton with the Board. O'Donnell/Mike O'Donnell Council. Champion/Counie Champion Council. Lehman/We have one Council person who isn't here yet but I suspect that they will be. Well as we all know PCRB was set up about 4 years ago in response to a rather tragic event that occurred in the community. There was a sunset clause placed on the ordinance at the time because I think Council obviously had no idea how the Board would function, how necessary it would be, whether or not we would perceive it as being something that had to go on for an ongoing perpetual sort of thing or whether it should operate on a more limited basis so the purpose of this meeting I think is for the Council and the Board to exchange ideas as to how we perceive the Board, the future of the Board, what the duties will be or won't be. I April 19, 2001 Special Work Session Page 2 guess Dee you were on the Council when we passed the first ordinance, Mike were you? O'Donnell/I was not. Vanderhoef/Just the two of us. Lehman/Just the two of us so this discussion can take any form, I have no plans for this discussion, we can talk about anything we'd like. I think it is important to understand how the Board was formed to start with which it obviously was in response to the Eric Shaw tragedy. A lot of time and effort was put in by the Council and I think the City Attorney's office and it took a long long time to put this together. And obviously it's been functioning ever since, and we all know that the sunset clause is coming up and it requires action on the part of the Council to continue the Board, we can continue it in the way it is now through a simple action on the part of the Council. We can adjust it, we change it, we can do whatever we see fit so with that I guess I would entertain any discussion. John Watson/Ernie I have just a few initial comments, in fact there's a brief handout if I could do that. And I guess what I'll do hand out also and as far as they go I guess I'll show these with the others around. Well first thank you, I know it's been a very very busy spring and making time for us and I think we couldn't have done it much later and get all the things that she has to get done. But it's really kind of three responsibilities of the PCRB and these are some of them are pretty in the ordinance and some of them are, you kind of have to leam from parts of the ordinance, or the initial kind of the preamble piece that went to the Council. One of course is to review the complaints of misconduct. The second is kind of to help the City, the Chief, the City Manager, City Council evaluate the overall performance of the Iowa City PD and we do that a variety of ways, we review policies, the general orders that are issued. We also and this is in the ordinance, I'm not sure it's verbatim that the citizens of Iowa City the Police Departments performance is keeping with community standards. And that's one that really we didn't do that much with the first couple of years we were very busy with complaints and setting up the Board and recently we've tried to do that more through the forms we have try to leam from the community what it is, what are these community standards, and it's not, we're not there yet, we're not exactly sure what they are and everything but that's kind of one of our responsibilities. What, at the last meeting we voted unanimously to recommend to the Council that the PCRB be enacted, it was a fairly, it didn't take much discussion, we also talked, we went through the ordinance, we also talked about two possible changes in the ordinance, one there' s kind of a dual process of filing complaints right now. This is an issue we talked about early on in our existence and we've come back to it. A complainant has an option of filing a complaint, a less formal process intemally with the Police Department, meeting with the watch commander and the officer and it takes a lot less time and it's especially good for satisfying minor complaints. And the other is the formal process for the Board which is much April 19, 2001 Special Work Session Page 3 more formal and take much longer. The ordinance makes repeated references to the term all complaints which implies that all complaints would come to the Board and so there's, it seems like the ordinance is not consistent with actual practice the way we're doing things, we either need to change the ordinance to be to reflect the actual practice or change the practice to comply with the ordinance, that's one change. The other issue is what we've called the difference clause, and it immediately as soon as we started we started stumbling up against this and basically it's, there's a word, there' s a phrase in the ordinance that says we must give difference to the Chief' s opinions and findings because of the experience and expertise which makes sense. But it does it in such a way that leaves us little latitude to come to our own findings. We may see a situation through a different lens and a different way than the Chief does and it really doesn't allow us to use that lens to form our own opinion about the situation so we'd like to take a look at that. Now either one of these have we done any, do we have any recommendations at this time. And I guess we're not feeling we want to go ahead with any until we know what' s going to happen with the ordinance, with the Board. The reasons we think the Board should be continued basically kind of boil down to three issues, one is there's a phrase that's used several places in the ordinance it says external accountability, it seems like an overall purpose of the Board to ensure some external accountability for the Police Department and that is to encourage confidence in the Police Department and the City of Iowa City through a system of checks and balances of an independent review process. And I think a second reason is improved performance and it's hard, we're not claiming to be able to say because of us or we did this or we said that that this has taken place but I think the fact that we've existed has encouraged the Chief and the Department to enhance their training, to do a better job of self monitoring of conduct of officers and look at those policies and adjust those. We've been able to affirm the positive things that they've done, the positive outcomes and there have been a lot of those in the past few years. We offer an independent review of policies and practices, and we are a channel for community input both in the community through us to the police department and for instance last night on community policing an opportunity for the department to talk about and educate the community on what their goals are. And finally this is a tough one it's reduce risks, we can't say that they'll, that nobody will ever sue the City again because of a police officer's conduct, because of our existence but we do think our existence would reduce the risk of that, that there is an outlet for people that is perceived we hope as being fair and objective to, that will listen to people and will respond to the complaint in a fair and objective way and that it's independent. Finally there' s an issue of cost, and I don't know whether that's an issue much with you anymore, but we project that we'll spend less than $30,000 this year on our budget, that does not include I think as Steve indicated, the time that the City Attorney, and the City Manager, and the Chief, and the investigating officers and all that time goes into complaints. However the number of complaints has as you know fallen significantly since our first year so that's becoming less of a burden I think. So those are our initial, I'd just invite Board members to add anything April 19, 2001 Special Work Session Page 4 they'd like if they want but then answer any questions or have any comments from you. Leah. Lehman/He must of said it all. Watson/Well we talked about it. Stratton/Well John has put this together and it sort of(can't hear). Lehman/Council, comments. Watson/Can I make one more comment about the forum last night and not just because Captain Johnson is here but he did an outstanding job last night. He faced a lot of tough questions, the questions were civil I think, with maybe one or two exceptions. Lehman/You always have those. Watson/But they were tough, they were direct, they were pointed, they were well prepared, people had cards you know that were given to them to ask questions and he handled him extremely well and after he left about 8:30 after an hour of this quizzing, there were several people including some of the people that he had given them tough questions that complimented him on his conduct and performance, I wanted to say that. Vanderhoef/I'll second that I think he did a (can't hear). O~Donnell/How many complaints were there the first year, do you know that offhand John? Watson/Oh about. O'Donnell/Do we have a (can't hear)? Lehman/I think we have it. Watson/We report in two different ways, calendar year and fiscal year, and I think the newspaper reported it by calendar year. Vanderhoef/The partial year was 7/8 and the 98 was 20 complaints with 59 allegations. Watson/And in 97 two of three of those, the ones in late 97 and several of the ones in 98 were filed by one person, a total of 14 1 think were filed by, but I think they covered a special, two year period so the storage (can't hear) was in particular 98 a bit. April 19, 2001 Special Work Session Page 5 Wilburn/I think it's sad, I think John what you have on here is external accountability if you'll let me just kind of elaborate a few minutes on that provides comfort for me in having the PCRB exist. It also seems important for me to have some type of vehicle in place outside of just lodging a complaint directly with officers or going through the Chief internally. And that' s no reflection on the Chief but I think that some people for whatever reasons may be intimidated by that process. I also think when I talk about some vehicle in place the (can't hear) come to mind to me like (can't hear) going on in Ohio right now if you've paid attention to that type of thing, I think anytime there' s some type of unfortunate event or events like that there' s going to be people with legitimate complaints whether that' s some action from an officer or from just not understanding what policy is and of course there' s going to be opportunists during that time that will take advantage of you know their own past history or there's people that are going to take advantage of it in an event through their behavior including rioting that type of thing so it just seems important to me to have some type of vehicle in place that' s (cant hear) to have some type of response, reaction, education and it's important for me to have that available. The other thing that strikes me as just the opportunity for confidence and that' s within the department itself, actions, not only for the public but for us. It's another opportunity besides the, I forget what they call it the Public Law Enfomement Academy or whatever you call that thing. Another opportunity to have a group of citizens or the department to educate about practices so for those reasons I think it's important, your numbers of complaint are going to (can't hear) flow I think over time, but again I think it's important to have some vehicle in place rather than as, I see it as a possibility to kind of defuse some events if people have a place to go with some type of complaint against the department so those are my comments. And so I would support continuing the PCRB. Champion/I also feel the same way that you do but I think we should keep the PCRB in some type of form, I'm not so sure we have to keep it the way it's been ftmctioning. But I do think it's important with citizens to have a way to file a complaint without dealing directly with the police. Just like school you complain to the principal or to somebody else who' s not really in the immediate conduct area. But I'm not so sure that it needs to be in the same format as it is now, I'm (can't hear) to keeping it some type of form whatever we decide to do with that. Leah Cohen/What are you thinking Connie as far as? Champion/Well, I don't know, I was thinking more along the lines that you would respond to complaints only that there was a way for people to complain and you wouldn't sort of like seek out complaints, and I don't know how important that is, you would more about that than me. But I think there should be something in place for citizens who feel like they've been treated badly by the police. I think what also what you've done is and it's important is shown Iowa City how kind of risk free our Police Department is and that's another reason why I think it's important the PCRB stays in place in some form. And because of all the problems in the country, in the paper if you read about people' s reaction to police, April 19, 2001 Special Work Session Page 6 I think it's helpful to the community and to the police too to maintain some type of format for citizens with complaints. But you may have better ideas than I have on how you could function without, with on a complaint only basis. That's just my own personal feeling. Leah Cohen/I guess my initial thoughts of that would be, we feel as a Board that it's essential that we continue to educate ourselves from the Department, policies and routine (can't hear) those sorts of things often times those will come into play with complaints. And it certainly helps us when we do spend that time to review those sorts of aspects. We feel that it's looked over thoroughly, that (can't hear) looked over thoroughly, those sorts of things. So I think it would be a little difficult just to respond to just complaints to meet just their work complaints, that sort of thing because I think it would. We certainly, us original on the Board you know it's been four years and we've learned a lot and that' s certainly a big advantage to know a little bit more of how things operate, where if you come in from the dark sometimes you don't really understand a lot of those aspects of it. Watson/I might comment, I'm not sure where you were going with the seeking the complaints, we really don't seek them, we do try to publicize our existence. Champion/Yea I, (can't hear) was not a good word to use. Watson/Okay. Champion/Yea your right, you don't really try to seek out complaints. Watson/We really don't try to beat up, drum up business. Champion/No, thanks for correcting me, your not the first person to correct me. Lehman/Probably not the last either. Champion/Not the last. Lehman/I agree that the PCRB serves a ftmction that's a valuable function to the community. I'm not sure that I am totally agree with the way we're doing it, I think we set it up for all the fight reasons, I think we should continue it, I view the Board or the PCRB very much the same as I do the Board of Adjustment. We've got numerous ordinances within the City that don't always work and when they don't work we have a procedure where people go to the Board of Adjustment and that Board hears the complaints and makes a judgment based on the particular circumstances. Now I think in this regard I think the Board of Adjustment could be improved too because I think any time we get a complaint at the Board of Adjustment that shows a flaw in our ordinances that that Board should have the ability to address those flaws. In other words instead of just making a ruling that supports the city or doesn't support the city that if that is a recommendation not in April 19, 2001 Special Work Session Page 7 support of the city then we need to do something to change those ordinances that created the problem in the first place. So I guess I would, I certainly would favor continuing the PCRB to take complaints, but I would like to see those complaints are addressed to be taken on by that Board, I don't think we need, if the Board of Adjustment doesn't review all of the zoning codes, obviously most of those codes are pretty good. I think the Board, the PCRB should be available to the Council, the City Manager or the Police Chief to perform tasks when requested to do, other than that I believe you should hear complaints from citizens, when those complaints show a flaw in the system you should be able to look at those flaws and make recommendations back to the Council. I do not believe the PCRB is the organization that is probably the right one to assess community standards for policing for example, I think the Council is. I mean, you people have worked very very hard and I certainly appreciate your work and when it comes to the results obviously I think you have shown we have a police department that functions extremely well that do a good job. But I think it's important that you be there, that you be available as an assistant to those folks, to the Council or whatever, but I don't think it's necessary that you have, now we are in the process of accreditation and should the chief or the department wish you to review those things I think you should be available for that. But I think I would prefer to see this group operate more the same way the Board of Adjustment does except they would have the ability to respond to the Chief or to the Council, or to the City Manager when addressing specific issues. Pfab/Emie I believe I would speak a little bit contrary to what your position is and that is and 99 percent of it, 90 percent I'd agree with you. I think this for instance last night at this Police Citizens Review Board community forum, I'd tell you that was a place where the City, the Police Department and the Board really looked good. There was only one problem it wasn't televised, it was audio recorded but it wasn't televised. We saw some people who had some burrs under their saddle and Captain Johnson held them very well, they all walked away that they had a good hearing and it was a proud moment to be a City Council person and just sit there and observe so something is going right and a lot of things are going right. But I think that this is, the community outreach of that presentation was something that will keep things from getting from pestering, starting to pester and get worse. People need to have a place, just like a safety valve in a steam system, if there is no safety valve then something can go out of whack. I believe that the Board also provides a good function because you and I and the citizens have really no idea how the police system works. These people have put hours and hours and hours and partly because they had to because the complaints were there, they had to figure out what was right, what was wrong, but over a period of time they developed an expertise and they have a feel with the community that you and I won't. Now we are in the community but people don't come up to us but they know that Board is there and these people, that' s where their focus is and as a result I think they provide a very valuable interaction with the police force. Now if I was a Police Chief I may not wish these people to be around all the time but if things got in trouble I would certainly be glad they were there and they probably April 19, 2001 Special Work Session Page 8 are going to be the canary in the coal mine, they are going to figure out if something is wrong and they're going to be the first to know. Lehman/You got rid of the camel (can't hear). Watson/I don't think we like that image some of it. Plhb/Well no I mean your the people that sense if there's a problem, your probably going to be one of the first people who sense it because if people have a complaint, and this idea of all the complaints. Are you saying you do not have access to all the complaints that are filed even review? Watson/Yea the. Pfab/I mean just to catalog let's say. Watson/Citizen has two choices when, I mean there' s actually two different forms I believe. Lehman/Right. Watson/And they can choose to what's an intemal complaint process which means that they probably meet with the watch commander and maybe the officer involved and they just try to work out a quick solution and it may take a day, an hour or a week or two, I mean it's pretty simple. And that's probably good, I think a lot of relatively minor complaints are resolved satisfactorily and expeditiously that way. Citizens also though have a choice to file a formal complaint with us, it's their choice, it's the Chiefs choice, it's the citizen's choice to refer it to us. And by the way through all this time, mediation is available, at any time the process can stop and the parties agree they can try to mediate it formally or informally. So the internal complaint, we get a regular report from the Chief that summarizes all the complaints received, and on that are both the ones that he receives and resolves informally as well as the ones we receive to resolve through our process. And we have on that document we have a brief description of what the complaint was about harassment, rudeness, whatever and what his finding was, what his resolution was, whether it supported it or he didn't support the complaint and so on, but we don't know the details, we don't get a copy of the Chiefs report. Pfab/But you get a very very brief summary. Watson/It's just a matrix and it's just a one line kind of deal. Pfab/So you are aware of every complaint that the police department receives and the fact that it has been resolved or not resolved or whatever. So you have. Cohen/Any written complaint. April 19, 2001 Special Work Session Page 9 Watson/Any written complaint. Pfab/Right, okay, right. Cohen/We had addressed with the Council a year or two ago because our concem was we were putting out a report every year on performance of Police Department in a way and we really had no clue what was going on otherwise as far as written complaints were concerned, just in reference to ours, and there was a lot of confusion, we were feeling and people not knowing which complaint with which and where it went. And so we changed our complaint, we went through a very thorough process to change ours and the department I believe lets citizens know that they have both avenues to explore. So what we asked at the time and Council agreed was that we could have a quarterly report from the Chief on written complaints within the department so we had an idea of what was going on in that end. So we get a brief on that. Pfab/I was here in the City when this was formed but it was a tragic event I just couldn't stomach it, the whole thing, the best I could do is just stay away and how it resolved itself is a credit to a lot of people. And I mean it was a tough, it's one of those things you hoped never happened but they do so. Kanner/I'm sorry I was late and just a few thoughts on the Police Citizens Review Board I think it's something we need to continue and to strengthen. Errfie in reply to something that, a statement you had made at our last meeting, I think there by definition is going to be some tension and that' s not a bad thing between the Police Citizen Review Board and the police, I think that' s what it's there for to a certain extent to make sure that things are going well, and I think generally things are going well with the police. But because the police have special powers, I think we need a strong assertive Board, and John actually I think that the Board does need to be assertive and see if there are complaints. I've heard complaints and perhaps has to go, I know it goes into the community but even more the places that we are informally and formally are hearing about complaints, I mean that's one of the things I would look for the Board is to as members of the community and I want to get community representatives on the Board and be aware of where there are complaints and say maybe we have to go and out there and ask them to what their feelings are. And so we might have to go into the pedestrian mall and some of the bars if there's a lot of complaints there about interaction with police and we have to find out ifthere's validity to it. We have to go to areas where there' s complaints about police harassment and see if that is the case. And so I would say we have to be assertive in that regard. And I think it is important that the Police Citizen's Review Board help us with setting community standards, the police to a large extent, they're bound by state code and city code but they also follow the policy of City Council and we, the most important city policy is what funding happens. And I for one would like to get a Citizen Review Board to recommend on policy and budget and say perhaps we ought to move in April 19, 2001 Special Work Session Page 10 this direction, this is what the community is telling us. I think that would be a valuable asset to us and we set policy, not only budget, we talk about we want more police to look out for cars that are speeding or violating other road laws or go after people who are biking on the ped mall or littering or (can't hear) ramps. And there' s a whole host of issues that I've heard from people saying perhaps we ought to change our policy as a community and there' s others who say it's great and I think the Police Citizen Review Board could help us with that and so I think we should keep that and expand that, expand the community forum and ask Police Citizen Review Board to look over the budget each year also and make recommendations just like we have other Commissions look over budgets in their areas and so those are some thoughts I have on it. And I appreciate the work that your doing and I appreciate the work that our police department i~ doing also. O'Do~mell/I look at it somewhat differently. We keep talking police policies and what we should be seeing is we're all bounds in force of laws, you know these are laws and we really don't have a lot of leeway. I also feel like the Board should function like the Board of Adjustments, be complaint activated. I believe most of our policies that we keep talking about in the community are set by laws so that we have to follow them and we have been forced. I think the PCRB has done a good job, but I believe the original function was to listen to complaints and offer (can't hear). So I, I'm kind of leaning the way Ernie is in how I feel it should function. Pfab/As far, the ideal thing would be to have no complaints. O'Donnell/Wouldn't it? Pfab/Yea so in a sense. Lehman/I mean we can't pass an ordinance to do that. O'Donnell/We could try that. Champion/We could. Pfab/But so I think where I just sitting there and waiting for a complaint so to speak, I don't think is what I would want the Board to do, I would like to see thent be proactive and by going over the policies and working with the Police Department there and also the community outreach, those forums gives people a chance to speak up. And I'm not so sure that looking for a complaint is maybe the simplest way to prevent it from happening. In other words that if people know they have the right to complain and that somebody will listen to them a lot of times it may be just an informal, I don't know how many times citizens have approach any of you people and maybe just sit down just the fact that you are knowledgeable in that area and it maybe just a real short discussion and they say well it's not worth it, maybe I don't understand or I'm mistaken. But as a result what my point is I'd April 19, 2001 Special Work Session Page 11 like to see them be proactive and going out and hoping to do enough that there are no complaints, I would like to see them that they have, for this next fiscal year they had zero complaints, but I would like to seem them very busy to help make that happen. O'Donnell/And my comment to that Irvin is I don't think the function was to go out into the community and look for complaints, it was to hear complaints, give people a venue or for people if they felt like they had a complaint. Pfab/Would you, is it in your opinion in that you would rather see them be very passive and just sit there? O'Donnell/That's not what I said. Pfab/No, no, or be proactive and going out and interacting with the people. O'Donnell/I said I think they should hear complaints. Lehman/Dee you've been quite. Vanderhoef/Imagine that. Lehman/Trying to. Vanderhoef/I still have mixed feelings about the PCRB, I was very opposed to it when it was formed, I congratulate you folks for the work you've done and how you have presented yourself as very professional and caring folks. I look at some of the functions and I generally have a philosophy and this is not unique to you folks that I don't support having lots of Boards of Commissions if them isn't work to be done. I'm much more in favor of putting together ad hoc committees because I have this policy that I think we'd get more people involved in our community when we ask them to come in and do a job and then go away when the job is done and I think we enroll more people into participating when they have that option versus asking them to serve a three year, four year, five year term on a Board or Commission. Having said that I look at some of the things that you folks do and I look at independent review and policies and practices, that's one of those functions that I think could be done by ad hoc committee, I don't think it has to be done by a standing Board or Commission. And this is where I think more folks sitting at the table doing review so if that review were coming up and it was going to be done over a two or three month period I can see have 15 people sitting on that to get views from different directions. Your community forums those are the kinds of things I much appreciated the one last night, I thought it was very well conducted and it provided some information to some folks that had some questions. I would say it was poorly attended, now subtract out the students that were there because of a class purpose and the reporters that were there and so I'm sorry that it is not well attended. But I think we have that same opportunity to April 19, 2001 Special Work Session Page 12 offer those kinds of forums whether we have a Commission or not. Where I have a problem personally is weighing the cost of doing business which conservatively I would say averages out to $50,000 a year, and the human process of making some folks feel better because it's already in place. Resolving that for myself is one of those things that is very very difficult. I can't say yet whether I'm going to continue to support it or not, those are the things I have to weigh for me and the input that I get from a number of people in the comn~unity is that it's expensive. Watson/It's what? Vanderhoef/It's expensive. Lehman/John I think though from the conversation that it's obvious that we will continue the PCRB in some form. I don't think it would be unreasonable to expect there might be some change in the form but I do think that from the Council's conversation that we do recognize the value of the PCRB and I would certainly. We~ve been very fortunate in four years to have very good on that Comn~ission and I don't know that even you appreciate what could happen if you got folks, in fact the selection process for that Board, we had 40 some applications I believe, when we first started this, we had more discussion and more concern on the part of the Coancil and appointing that Commission that any Commission in this city has ever had. And the same concern when it comes to reappointing or new people because this, I mean this Board, I think it has a significant influence in the community and it's terribly important that the people on this Board do not have an ax to grind, that they are good and sincere people and we've been blessed to have people like that on that Board. But I think I would second what Dee says we've been very fortunate to do that. I think we're going to have to schedule this Steve for a work session, this is something that needs attention soon so that, I do, am I accurate except for Dee that this the Council is in favor of continuing the PCRB? Champion/Yes. Lehman/And there may be some, go ahead Johns. Watson/Just I guess a process question, there are different versions on how it might continue and we haven't even talked about it oarselves, and we're coming up with a time crunch here we have to, if we are going to continue we need new Board members possibly, Leah and Paul terms are expiring and Leah is wavering and now Paul may be changing his mind so we're not sure what's going to happen here, we may be able to get him back and they've both have been excellent Board members. But there is, I mean if you just teenact it that doesn't mean that we can't change it and take our time. Lehman/Oh no that' s right. April 19, 2001 Special Work Session Page 13 Watson/After that and work on amendments, I mean we'd like to have some input into that process and that times by the time we deliberate and get it through our attorney and you know all that stuff that takes time and there's probably not time to do that before the sunset so is it possible to reenact it and then work on changes with the Council? Lehman/That's at the pleasure of the Council but it certainly is possible. Pfab/I would support that. Champion/We could certainly extend it, we could extend the sunset clause, I mean we could say we're going to extend it for 3 months while you work on it. Lehman/We could do whatever, whatever. Vanderhoef/We could amend it at anytime so that even if we reapprove it at the sunset time that doesn't mean that we can't amend it at anytime, it's a second process but that' s not a problem. Lehman/Well I think the big question, I don't know that it's really been a big question, is will the PCRB continue. I think the answer to that is yes. Will it be in the same form? Maybe maybe not, maybe it will be somewhat expanded, maybe it would be somewhat restricted but in any event it will continue to be in place and certainly anything that we do to change the scope would you would certainly have input, I don't think there's any question about that just as any other Board or Commission would. I think obviously any comments you have are welcome now but I think you've heard pretty much how Council reacts. Stratton/I have reactions to comments about cost, there's always concern with costs and the bulk of the costs are the Board falls into two categories, one is legal and secretarial support, the other is amount of time and effort police officers give over to investigate a complainant. Changing the structure would be very difficult to reduce the costs of legal and other support of us we just didn't need very often. Lehman/I don't share the same concern on the costs, I think that' s a ratio of benefit to what it costs us and I think that that and obviously I don't like spending a lot of money on the other hand I think it performs a function that' s very valuable to the community. Stratton/I wanted to complete the thought here and that is on the cost of the investigation by police officers and so on, complainant, a certain amount of that should be taking place anyway so it may be that asking for a little more thorough or reinvestigation or something may add cost but not all of that is a result of (can't hear) and one final thought, we don't even coffee out of this. Lehman/I believe that we could take care of that. April 19, 2001 Special Work Session Page 14 Champion/I'm not sure it's very expensive. Lehman/No I think, would you like coffee at your? Hoffey/No. Lehman/No wait a minute, we have a split Board that doesn't want coffee. Pfab/Dee doesn't either. Lehman/Your losing on this one John the rest of them don't want coffee. Hoffey/I do have two comments. Regarding costs, my opinion (can't hear) overall expenditure are to begin with I don't know if it's from general fund or from it's property tax dollars they're talking about or not, I don't know if it comes from the police department's budget or where but it is a very small amount of the overall budget. Secondly from what I can understand about ad hoc committees they're going to, if they were put together they would come to the table with very little if any expertise and any knowledge what had transpired previously and I'm not sure how effective they would be. As for the Board of Adjustment I'm not sure exactly how their duties are complied with, but what I'm perceiving here is watering down of hte process for the authority that hte Board now has and if that' s the case I think that hte community would pemeive the Board as being anything, that would be my comment regarding the changes tend to reduce (can't hear). Pfab/If anything I having watched the Board perform in public over a number of times, if anything the Board power should be slightly increased, that's my feeling and how and when I don't know the details but I think the Board talking with them at public meetings and watching them where they feel that they have difficulties performing what they needed to do at individual incidents, I would say if anything the Board power should be increased slightly. When and where I just don't know all the details. Watson/One more comment, if were to respond to the fires and wishes of the Police Chief for example to perform whatever functions he would like to have us to perform I think we would lose (can't hear) and advocates for the Police and really we're not advocates for the Police or for the citizen (can't hear). Lehman/I think, and because of the make up of the Board though, I mean you've got a very unique group of folks, I don't, I think that' s the difficult shoe to wear. Watson/I don't know of anyone the past four years who have come to the Board as a member that carried any baggage which I think is. April 19, 2001 Special Work Session Page 15 Lehman/That was our intention. Other comments from Council. Champion/Well I think to now that this is being discussed this morning that we will start to hear from the public. (END OF 01-44 SIDE ONE) Vanderhoef/I just have one request offof the subject sort of, last night I picked this up and I started reading through it and I have a little problem with the first sentence in the second paragraph it states the PCRB reviews reports prepared after investigation of complaints about police misconduct. To me that's already judging that the police had misconduct and I could either suggest using perceived or going back to your Review Board and under your intent goals and guiding principles make a statement investigations into claims of inappropriate conduct by sworn police officers. Pfab/What about any misconduct, leave everything out. Watson/Well we'll want to investigate misconduct, I mean. Vanderhoef/But it has to be about perceived not already judged that they were. Watson/Maybe the word alleged. Vanderhoef/Something like that because I, just already judges. Lehman/Well what I would suggest and with the concurrence of the Council I'd like to tell these folks that we will, you can continue, I mean you can count on some sort of continuance of the PCRB that we will at a work session or two or three whatever it takes us to come up with what we perceive as being the scope of the Board, we would obviously get that to you for your comments and at some point then if we choose we would amend the ordinance but how does that in keeping with the rest of the Council? Pfab/I think that' s right but I, them' s something that I that came up here in the comments here like somebody said well let's postpone, let's extend the sunset clause. I think the, it should be unmistakably clear that it will be renewed. Lehman/That's what I just said. Pfab/And renew it as soon as possible so they can go along with their work. Lehman/Well it needs to be renewed by the end of. Vanderhoef/July. April 19, 2001 Special Work Session Page 16 Lehman/August whatever and obviously we would act, we would act prior to that to extend your ordinance. Pfab/Okay so, in other words. Karr/Mr. Mayor. Pfab/There' s no (can't hear). Lehman/There won't be any lap, I don't think there's any question about that. Karr/Mr. Mayor. Lehman Yes. Karr/May I just note that as John has mentioned that we have two vacancies coming up September 1 on the Board, those vacancies will be announced in June and I think it might be advantageous for interested citizens applying for that Board or Commission to have at least some assurance if not certainly of duties that can be amended at any time of course but at least duration so there might be some advantage in possible consideration sooner than later so that we can post the notice and have some applicants. Lehman/Then I would suggest that we put that on our next agenda as an agenda item just reads renew the ordinance, we'll pass it and we'll discuss it at some, but I don't think there' s any question that we're not going to let it lapse. Kanner/Yea I can see us at a May meeting, the main issue of discussion Connie brought up how long should there be a sunset clause, that would be the main discussion if we want to have a sunset clause and how long or if we don't. And then I would recommend that we ask for a report from staff along with a detailed report from the Review Board and then in about 3 or 4 months we'll review possible amendments. Lehman/I don't think we're going to wait that long, I think we, we can get started on that sooner than that. Pfab/But are you saying we vote to renew it though? Kanner/We vote to renew it in May and then. Pfab/Oh okay all right. Lehman/The biggest thing is we get this on, get it renewed and then we can address any changes we wish to make. April 19, 2001 Special Work Session Page 17 Pfab/I mean these people don't, they have a right to not be held in limbo on this thing. Lehman/We're not intending to. Are there other comments from Council or Board? Pfab/It was a good meeting. Lehman/I appreciate your efforts and thank you, I know John you had to rearrange your schedule to get here. It's very difficult when you have this number of folks to pick a time that everybody can be there. Watson/Thanks a lot. Lehman/But thank you for being here all of you folks and thank you Council. Adjourned 9:30.