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Home My WebLink About2002-01-15 Transcription Special Budget Work Session Page #1 January 15, 2002 Special Budget Work Session 3:00 PM Council: Lehman, Champion, Vanderhoef, Wilbum, Pfab, Kanner (O'Donnell absent) Staff: Atkins, Helling, Karr, Davidson, Franklin, Walls, Shera, Mansfield, O'Malley, Schmadeke, Herting, Trueblood, Fosse TAPES: 02-07 SIDE TWO; 02-08 BOTH SIDES; 02-09 SIDE ONE INTRODUCTION Atkin: Are you ready? Lehman: Yes, sir. Atkins: Ready to go. Today we have a couple things planned for you first item is to discuss our proposed pilot program on the change in our refuse collection policies. Secondly, from Public Works, a discussion our proposed storm water utility. And then thirdly, as time permits, we can...I've got the staff here to begin discussion of the Capital Improvement Program. One quick announcement, I got a note today under City Voices from the League. Apparently the House ways and Means Chairman has announced that a property tax limitation bill will be approved by the second week in... and I have no idea what it's going to be. So we'll wait and see how it all shakes out. Vanderhoefi Well I think we could go on record here at the end of the meeting maybe after people had a little... Atkins: Yeah, I do not have the bill. That's the only problem. Vanderhoef: No we don't but we do know some of things that we don't want in the bill. Atkins: Yeah. We can talk about that. And that's it. Lehman: Okay... Atkins: Ready to go. Lehman: ...and while we're preliminarily... Jim Leach will be meeting with constituents on Saturday the 19th from 4:00-6:00 at the Athletic Club for anybody who'd like to go visit him. Atkins: Okay. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. Special Budget Work Session Page #2 O'Donnell: Where was that, Emie? Lehman: The Athletic Club, 4:00 - 6:00 on Saturday and the Council's all invited. Champion: I'll be out of town. Lehman: Well don't worry about it. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #1 Page #3 ITEM NO. 1. PILOT PROGRAM FOR IMPLEMNTATION OF AUTOMATED REFUSE CARTS (HANDOUTS) Atkins: First item up for you is going to be the refuse proposal Rod's passing out, a little summary. He'll be taking you through this. Pfab: It's one of those hard working (can't hear) Atkins: Yeah. And the bum knee he has is his own fault. We had nothing to do with that. Lehman: I was going to ask. I was going to ask about that but...Are you just wearing that for sympathy? Cause if you're looking sympathy... Atkins: It won't work. Lehman: ...I don't think it's working. Vanderhoef: You find sympathy in the dictionary is where you find it. Lehman: I see. Atkins: Set to go? You're on. Rodney Walls: Okay, first of all my name is Rodney Walls. I'm the Assistant Superintendent of Solid Waste and I'm excited to be here. We get to blow our horn today because of the refuse workers. We got eighteen workers that work for the City of Iowa City and they're part of a team that we've built down there. Of the eighteen people we service 13,582 people every week. To give you an example, last week we had 164 tons of garbage go out to the landfill. Okay? That's what we took to the landfill. We recycled 40 tons that went to City Carton and we also recycled 18 tons of yard waste. So, that's what they do every day. Okay? Now on your packets, if you'd turn to the back page please, just to kind of show you where I want to go today. It's a colored illustration, basically it says one, two, three, four and what you have in front of you is a cart. This is the cart...it's a 68 gallon cart and we'd like...we'll go through the presentation but what happens is the driver drives up and he's got the picker in the back of the truck. The picker gets off the truck, rolls the cart to the back of the truck and then dumps it. We have a Perkins Cart Tipper. Currently we have two trucks, two brand new Leach Freight Liners in our fleet that have the Perkins Cart Tipper on it. Okay? So we have two trucks already so if we were to sell these trucks tomorrow we'd make our money back as a private, other cities already doing it. Like Cedar Falls been doing...had these carts now 1994. They have about 9,000 of these carts in their fleet This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #1 Page #4 right now. Okay? So we'll just go through the presentation here. If you have any questions please, you know, give a holler and I'11, we'll explain it. Okay. First slide pilot program for the implementation of automated refuse carts. Okay? Next slide. The purpose of the presentation to show the advantages of the refuse carts, the cost and the breakdown of the implementation and cost for one year to run this program. Okay? Next page please. The advantages, ergonomics. We all know about ergonomics. Ergonomics is for every job and with our job we're bending and twisting and picking. And we're picking up garbage cans right now...or garbage bags, excuse me, fifty pounds. So on the ergonomics we're looking at the backs, the knee, the ankle injury. Try to reduce it. It improves the neighborhoods. Cities that have this in place like Cedar Falls, Bettendorf, Cedar Rapids...Okay? Animal mess. We can't control raccoons, the dogs, birds, crows. A lot of people set their garbage out at night and then the next morning the animals have gotten into the garbage and we have blowing and littering going on. Lehman: Will those three places (can't hear) deer? Walls: No, can't do nothing about the deer...nothing about them. Okay? And the last bullet there, semi-automated which means we would roll it to the back of the cart and then dump it. Phase two then would be down the road would be the fully automated with the arm, you've seen it on TV or somewhere, where the truck drives up, an arm comes up, grabs the can, throws it in and he goes. And Cedar Falls has them. They run about a thousand of these per route. And them guys are usually done by 2:00. I talked to Brian. Lehman: They have the fully automated ones in Cedar Fails? Walls: Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Lehman: These sort of things will work, fully automated? Walls: Yes, and that's why you get them...as you can see in the front of this it has the lip... Lehman: Right, right. Wall: ...that's what catches it. And this is what keeps it from falling into the hopper. Lehman: And this is the first step in what we expect at some point to be fully automated (can't hear)? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #1 Page #5 Walls: Yeah, because...Yeah, and why I want that is because I want somebody to retire at refuse. Right now our Refuse workers...we've got eighteen people on staff, ten of them got over ten years of work. They've been throwing garbage day in, day out for ten years and we'd like to see them retire because you know they've got family, they got grandkids and so we're looking out for our employees. Okay? Next slide. Obviously these will all have branded serial numbers on them for tracking. They're ten years guaranteed. There's about 75 different companies out here that sell these. They're injected, molded...blow molded... I mean there's fifteen different ways that they can make these carts. Bottom line is we get them like our current recycling bins that we have that you see out there. The biggest problem that we have with the recycling bins is when students leave they make great book...they put their books in and off they go. Okay? For seven bucks it's hard to track down. So we kind of lose that. So we don't have a lot of problem with breakdown. And they are recyclable too so after ten years, the warranties up. Okay? And our primary advantage is to decrease the number soft tissue injuries for our employees, the backs, the knees. You know a back injury that would be the risk management's...you know could give you a cost of what it costs for a person to blow out a back. Okay? The cost, obviously everything that changes we do have a cost. I'd like to see us buy a thousand carts. The cost per cart is $55 so total cost just to buy the carts is $55,000. Now that's good for ten years, all right. We'd have to retrofit one more truck. That means we'd call Allied Equipment and put the attachment on for the cart tipper. That's about $6,000 to retrofit one truck. So we'd have three trucks total in our fleet that we could do these carts. Okay? How would we do this? We'd start from the outside of the City. Like a Monday route we'd have Walnut Ridge...and on the next sheet there's a map there kind of lays it all out for you. Walnut Ridge, Galaway. Okay? Normandy Drive. Okay what's nice and unique about all these areas is there's not a...high lines are not in the way, it's pretty flat and the parked cars are not in the way. And obviously, can I tell you today can we do the whole City? No we can't because of the parked cars, landscape, where people live...you know, Mr. Don...Mike here, where you live, you know, there's no way we could do your house, your neighbors because of where you're at...your located. So it would be tough to do you. So basically we'd have 200 per day is what we're shooting for with this 1,000. Okay? Lehman: 200 per day and you have three trucks? Walls: One for back up. Lehman: Okay. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #1 Page #6 Walls: One for back up. Lehman: So each truck will do 100 units? Walls: Well we'd basically have them do 200. Lehman: Oh, one truck will do 200? Walls: Yeah, yeah. Right now we have about 25 carts out and that's because we've asked auto hey we'd like to try that can you send us and they sent us ten here. Lehman: Didn't you tell us you have two trucks that... Walls: Well yeah we have two. Lehman: If you have two that work and you're going to use one why am you going to retrofit another one? Walls: To beef up the...our trucks. Lehman: You mean like we're going to expand this? Walls: That's what I'm hoping. I think it's going to be successful. Lehman: All right. Walls: I really do. Everyone that's doing it there's success. It's not worst offer if we don't retrofit one we have two trucks and we can do it. Okay? And obviously the concerns, who's going to pay for the containers, will the rates increase? Obviously there's areas that got talked about earlier, parking and then the hills, landscape problems, definitely a problem for us. O' Donnell: What...what's the...excuse me...what's the clearance with the height? How much clearance do you need on these, on the truck? Walls: Right now we can use our trucks right now because we're semi- automated. So everything's going to back...we'll rear load this...this is called a rear 10ad truck right here so there's no clearance. With the, you know, phase two which I would love to come in here and talk about where we have the arm... O'Donnell: Um-huh. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. # 1 Page #7 Walls: Give you an example, two years ago when Emie won the driver of the year award and we went down to Atlanta, we sat with a guy that was 72 years old still picking garbage. Atkins: Tell them who Ernie is...make sure they don't... Walls: Oh, Emie Dennis, Ernie. Yeah not... O'Donnell: I know you're substantially older than I am. Vanderhoefi (can't hear) truck driver. Another sideline job. Atkins: Second job. Vanderhoef: Yeah, a second job. Walls: No I let it out didn't I that you work for us so... Lehman: You did. Walls: But a...he was 72 and still picking because we have a...it's offa joystick. He runs up there and...clearance really isn't a problem as long as it's not...and they don't dump as high as the truck. O'Donnell: Okay. Walls: So if you're truck can get there you can get it. O'Donnell: But you mentioned...mentioning high wire and so forth and I was... Walls: Yes, yes. Probably our biggest restriction is the mailboxes and parked cars. There's some streets there's just no way can...it's hard enough to pick up the refuse right now with the parked cars. So they have to drag that can clear around. And I guess what I want to say to you is, you know, garbage has been around Iowa City, you know, forever and it's changed. It's gone from where we've picked up everything and then the EPA, DNR put stipulations on us. Okay like you have to recycle by 2002. '96 you went to your recycling program, you went to the 50-pound weight limit. Okay? So, I think it's time to change again because that word that risk managers...management will say, ergonomics. It's coming. That trains coming and I think we really need to get on board and go for these carts. Yes sir? Pfab: Isn't there a way even for Mike to get his picked up if he brings it down to the street or is it... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #1 Page #8 Walls: Oh yeah, Mike, if he wants to bring it down...you betcha. Pfab: If you wheel it down? And I don't... Walls: And that's going to be a... Pfab: But the other thing, I mean, if he wants it picked up he...that's maybe a better alternative. But what about in those neighborhoods you talked are so difficult? Isn't there a way you can collect them, five or six people at one place? Walls: Well the problem with that is it be like when the students move out and you get these piles of trash. What happens is, in my experience also being atthe county, ifthere's apile of trash there, it grows. Now if...what would happen was who'd the neighbor that's going to have all that garbage in front of their house? Because what happens is, like when the students leave or these apartment complexes, you might be great recycler and everything else but it's the other guy that's going to pile it up and says [ don't care it's in front of his house. He's going to...and you're going to be out there picking up the cigarette butts and all the garbage. That's what happens when you pile it at one area. And we've talked about that and cities...Cedar Falls tried that pilot program where they said at this block, Lucas Street, everyone's going to bring their garbage here. Well that poor guy that lived at the end of Lucas was hot. He was hot because I might not come home and I might just leave my can there until next Friday. So I got an extra can lying there and they said it does not work. They've had more problems with that but... Lehman: But we're just talking about the areas that you indicated to start with. Walls: Yes. All I want to do is the outside. Lehman: Right. Walls: They will be successful. Lehman: Now you said...you read this, who will pay for the containers and will the rates increase but I didn't hear you answer that. Walls: Oh, I'm hoping that the City will pay for it. It's going to clean up a lot of the neighborhoods. One thing that we find that I get a lot of phone calls on, the trash lids blow away. As you can see these are attached to this. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #1 Page #9 Kanner: You mean general fund as opposed to fees. Is that what you mean by the City paying for it? Walls: But that's going to have to be in his area. I don't know who's going tO... Vanderhoef: The City's all one to them. Atkins: The first thing we wanted to accomplish today was did you like the idea? If you like the idea Rod needs to begin putting together the program in order to accomplish... O'Donnell: I think this is great. Vanderhoef: Do it. Pfab: I like the idea but is...are we...are some people never going to get it? Atkins: I think there's a distinct possibility that some people would never get it. O'Donnell: But apparently I'm one of them, Irvin. Lehman: Well I don't know what difference it makes. Pfab: Well I'm sticking up for Mike. Lehman: What difference does it make if we all get it? Champion: It doesn't. Pfab: No, I mean at some point is this system that is...doesn't... O'Dormell: I think the purpose is that you're going to save back injuries. I think this is a terrific... Pfab: Well what are you going to do with the rest of them then? Are they...nobody' s... Champion: They're going to pick it up like they always have. Atkins: Well that'll continue just simply the way that it has been in the past. Lehman: Steven? Atkins: Steven? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #1 Page #10 Kanner: ! had some questions. Atkins: Sure. Kanner: Is this equivalent...the regular size of two regular cans? Walls: This gives you more. This is...two things will happen. You as a consumer...that's going to equate to two cans, your two 35-gallon cans. That's a 68-gallon can. Okay so right now currently you can put out 100 pounds cause we've got a 50-pound weight limit. This can here you can load it up to 300 pounds. Now what's that going to do to recycling? You know I have no way of gauging how much recycling happens because a lot of people will fill this up every other week or go down to City Carton. If you go down by City Carton or the drop off sites, there's constantly people recycling at them spots. So to give you a number today how many...is this going to change our recycling? I don't think it is because people that are going to recycle, that care about, you know, it's not going to be land filled are going to continue to recycle. Vanderhoef: You don't think there... Kanner: But we do actually have some figures on our recycling. We get those from Brad and we... Walls: Yes. Kanner: ...pretty comprehensive. And that is a concern of mine that because you can put more in here this will limit the recycling that people do. That's one question I have. And so if they want to do more than what's in here how do people do that? Are they going to put... Walls: Okay we'd still have the sticker program where you could go to Hy- Vee and purchase a dollar sticker and then put the can or the bag beside there. Kanner: A can or a bag? Walls: Well you'd have your...roll your cart out there and then you'd stilI have a can or the bag. l~lut if they buy the dollar sticker it needs to be on a bag. Kanner: Okay. Walls: So it has to be in abag. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #1 Page #11 Vanderhoef: But what about the recycling bin then? Champion: That'd be picked up by recycling. Lehman: Sounded like it always is. Walls: Nothing changes there. Nothing changes. Vanderhoef: So we're buying two items for each household? ?: One. Walls: One. Just one of these. Vanderhoef: Well this one and... Walls: Everybody has this now. This is currently... Vanderhoef: Will have... Walls: We replace them. Vanderhoef: This is what I'm saying. Kanner: What's the plan for if this is lost or stolen, for replacing it? From a residence? Walls: That's what we'd have to...part of the guidelines we'd have to come up with is if it was stolen you know we'd have to replace it. You know, I mean, and then there's the other... ?: There's a serial number on them. Walls: There's a serial number on there so we can track that. So if it shows up at Walnut Ridge when it's supposed to be out at, you know, the east side of town... O'Donnell: What's the weight of this going to be? Walls: About 40 pounds. Lehman: Oh really. O'Dormell: That would make it pretty substantial thing to pick up under your arm and take off. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #1 Page #12 Walls: Yes. Lehman: You could do it but I couldn't. O'Dormell: I probably could but not (can't understand) Champion: Well I think it's a great idea. Vanderhoef: But you've got a bad back so you shouldn't. Kanner: Couple more questions. Walls: Okay. Kanner: What...like to encourage the use...actually we're talking about supporting a bottle bill and that encourages higher recycle content in the bottles and plastic and I think we need to do that also in purchases we make. What is the recycle...post consumer recycle content in these containers? Walls: I couldn't...I can find that out. Kanner: I think that's something we need to be concerned about. I would ask the council to think about that. That when we purchase items like this in large quantities that we want perhaps the same percentage at least that we're asking for the bottles... Walls: (whispered) I think it's 50 percent. Kanner: ...which is...I think we're asking for 25% post consumer recycled content. Pfab: Doesn't do any good to recycle if you don't have a market for it. Kanner: Yeah and I think we have an obligation to help create that market. The final question is, hopefully in the next year or two we'll take about...see if we want to do mandatory fees for apartments and other commercial businesses to be part of our garbage pick up. And let's say that comes to pass in a couple years down the road. How does this program and the trucks that we have fit in with picking up at apartments, the large containers? Walls: Large containers...and we'd have to change our trucks. Our fleet would have to be outfitted with the dumpsters and that's usually about $8,000 to get that on the back of the tracks. So basically you could go This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #1 Page #13 back and get a dumpster. That's about $8,000. We have one truck right now in our fleet that we can do dumpster and the only reason we have one is to be backup for the landfill's because he does the dumpsters. Obviously if you get into that you're talking more people. Champion: Right. Walls: I mean, right now we go from four-plexes down to single-family. The more you add...is it possible? Yes but you're going to...there's going to be a cost to it, more trucks, more manpower. Karmer: But could...one just final question. So if we adopt this system for a limited area and let's say a couple years down the road we go for apartments, more than four-plexes, instead of the large dumpsters could we perhaps require that there be four of these at an apartment and use our same system? Walls: Yes, in fact what we do we have Orchard Court labeled as an area that we'd like to do this pilot program for. Orchard Court has about eight four-plexes in there now. And I've talked to the owners because they wanted dumpsters but City Code says four-plex you will be with us. So I talked to both the owners that own the four-plexes and that's what we're going to do is give him these. And we're going to try it because it's a...adn we got pictures of what it looks like right now and hopefully it will clean it up because the cans are usually left there from Monday until trash day and they pick them up and fill them up. So we're excited about trying to do that, to clean up that area. And if it works with them four-plexes I'm sure it's going to work for the five- plexes and six-plexes. So we'll give you more information on that. Karmer: Thanks. Champion: I don't...I mean, I totally support the program but you said that there were places in town where you couldn't do it because of parked cars and etc. Well how do they get the trash now when there's parked cars? They still have to get it to the back of the truck. Walls: Yeah and they do...and you're talking about wheeling this through the grass and everything else. So what they do is they have to basically grab the can and drag it all the way around the parked cars or try and squeeze it through two parked cars. And one thing...and that's the questions that I always ask when I go to Bettendorf, Cedar Falls, Waterloo, Cedar Rapids is what do you do about parked cars? Well I'll tell you what the people that have these, they know...so if you're coming to visit, hey park the car back because this thing is going to go This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #1 Page #14 through because if they can't get it it stays. And that's just how they do it. Champion: But what about...don't like most...but maybe not all of the older parts of town but I was just thinking of Summit Street. One side of the street there's no parking and everybody on the other side of the street has a driveway so why couldn't you be required to put it down by your driveway? Walls: That's where we'd recommend to put all the carts, down by the driveway. Champion: So then... Walls: What I see us doing is if we get these 1,000 carts, my men, part of my team, would go there and explain to the people instead of putting a brochure on here...cause I went into Bettendorf and all the brochures stayed there. Nobody read them, nobody cared. So we want to explain to them look...and we'd also explain about recycling. Hey here's a new brochure on recycling, here's what this programs going to do. We're going to save your worker. You know cause a lot of them put the cookies and all that candy out during Christmas cause they know their workers and they appreciate the work they do. So it gives us a good opportunity not just to...you come home and here's this cart sitting there. Hopefully we've been them and talked to you and asked you your questions. Because the other thing that we do provide...it's not...we don't publish it but we have about 125 people that we provide either elderly or handicap carryouts. We go to their back porch and grab it. And I tell you it's a great program and it grows every year. and it's good for my people to talk to them and it might take 5, 10 minutes sometimes because that's the only people they see. And we ask them hey is this working out or do we need to move the...your container. So it's a great program that we do provide. Lehman: Dee? Vanderhoef: Yeah, when you go to the fully automated...someplace I got the idea that you had to have a real flat pad of concrete or something... Walls: No. Vanderhoef: ...to keep those cans from tipping so the arm can grab them? Walls: No, no. There again I'm going to base that from Bettendorf and Cedar Falls. Them cans were sitting all different ways. As long as they were facing with the lid out...because when he grabbed it dumped it. That's This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #1 Page #15 all they had to do, and try to keep it about two feet away from my mailbox. In fact when we drove up to it with the sales man he parked his car right there and the guy was so good at it, you know, he could grab it and go. But no as far as the height...it's pretty good. Vanderhoef: Well I thought maybe... Walls: There again I've told you about the height. It doesn't get any higher than the truck so it's basically bringing it in and dumping it there. Vanderhoef: I was just thinking tipped cans and that kind of thing. Walls: We get a lot of complaints, people calling because of the garbage cans blowing. These 40 mile and hour winds, that's pretty good and this is a 68 gallon container and it can withstand you know 40 mile and hour wind. We have some out at Walnut Ridge, very windy out there. And in fact the picture that you have in your brochure is Walnut Ridge. And two things, it's very windy out there and the lady that lives there weighs 100 pounds and can roll this thing out there with ease. Champion: Well I was going to...that was going to be my next question. Could I roll that thing out? Walls: Yes. Very easy. Yes. Lehman: Call Mike. Kanner: So Steve... Lehman: Actually even if... O'Donnell: I'm not going to have one. Lehman: ...even if we only use this in certain parts of the City... Champion: It's safe. Lehman: ...it sounds to me like this is a good program that we should be interested in doing. I mean we may never do part of the older parts of town or some other parts but if this is...this works and does what we want it to do it sounds to me like a pretty good idea. Vanderhoef: And sounds like we can rotate our workers so not the same workers are constantly having to do the lifting. And... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #1 Page #16 Walls: Yes. That's one thing...that's why I asked you...that's why I put in there, now that I think about it, why I wanted to retrofit another truck. Because I like to keep the same driver with that truck and they have a lot of pride in their trucks but keeping the clean and waxed. So a refuse worker is not like an old garbage worker. They do take a lot of pride in keeping their trucks clean. But ifI switched, you know, me and you drove today and then all of a sudden we're in a different truck nobody takes ownership to that truck. And that's, you know, that's part of the team is that's them truck and that's their customers and that's kind of what we kind of drill into our workers. So... Vanderhoef So you wouldn't rotate? Lehman: Okay do we... Walls: Yes we would, yes. Vanderhoef The one who's out on the street? Walls: Yes. Vanderhoef That's the one you rotate? Walls: And what we would like to do is the more experienced worker would have this route. The new person that we brought on typically is a younger person. He would be throwing the older part of the town. It's kind of the way we do it. Lehman: Are we prepared to take a vote yet? Pfab: No, no. Vanderhoef Yes. Pfab: What percentage of the pickups, I guess is the way to identify...how many of those will never get this? Walls: Well, you know, like right now...and I've talked to this to Mr. Atkins before is you know...and Chuck...You know we have 14,000 homes basically. I'd like to see of have at least 8,000 carts at some point. You know, if we can do more, you know, we need to do it but it's going to be a gradual work from the outside and work in and try to squeeze as much, you know, more experienced drivers get better with an arm or picking and then we can you know... Pfab: What do your sales people, the engineers that work with this say? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #1 Page #17 Walls: There's not a city that they've sold to that is 100%. Pfab: Okay what percentage are the cities that we know that have it, relatively local. Walls: Cedar Falls? Pfab: What percentage do they have? Walls: I couldn't tell you. I just know they got 9,500 carts out. Pfab: Okay what about...I think that information is kind of important. I...this is nice for the interstate so to speak but what about where other people live other places too. Atkins: Well please keep in mind that folk's garbage is still going to get picked up. Champion: Right. Atkins: They're not going to notice the change. It's just a matter of whether you're going to have to put it in this container or not. And that the underlining principle here was to reduce our expense with respect to workers compensation claims on the part of employees and we believe we can run a more efficient system. Champion: I think it would be quicker. Pfab: But, I mean, it's...how close...sure it's an efficient system if we can get a very, very high percentage. But for 10% this isn't efficient. Lehman: No, no I don't think that's right. Pfab: So what I'm...get me some numbers that are a little closer. Walls: Okay. Well I think... Lehman: (can't hear) we hold out on this is doesn't make any difference. If one route.,.the efficiency is if you have a full route. That's all you need. If you have one route out often that route's just as efficient as it ever was and the other nine (can't hear) Walls: I can tell you what we've done since I've been on board here, three years. Used to be a garb...refuse worker picked garbage five days a week, garbage. Okay? I've rota...I started rotating the men, all right, This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #1 Page #18 or the workers. So they only pick refuse four days a week and one day a week they pick up yard waste. I tell you the morale because they're doing something different. All fight? So instead of picking garbage Monday through Friday, Friday might be their day of yard waste. Well I can tell you like fight now we pick up four tons of yard waste. That's nothing compared to picking up eight tons. Okay? So the morale...so we do the same thing with the carts. We'd be able to rotate people to do something different. Even if it was 10% you have taken that garbage person, instead of picking five days doing this, 50 pounds, figure 14,000 that about 750 stops per day. All right? You've reduced that now he might be picking up just ten stops. Pfab: I think it really gets down to what percentage of the City is going...or should be looking for something that a bigger percentage of it can be used in the City. Champion: Irvin, I don't think we'll know until we try it and see how it works. Pfab: Well this isn't drop out of the sky. This thing has been in use for what ten years? Atkins: But not here. But not here. Pfab: Somebody knows something. Atkins: Not here. Pfab: What...this...we aren't no special place on the planet that nobody else has ever been. Atkins: We have an underlying philosophy that's being changed here if you approve this. We had traditionally said that our services delivered particularly directly to the general public are going to be substantially the same for everyone. We're saying we're not going to do it this way. We're doing it a little differently. Your refuse and recycle will always be picked up. How we pick it up is what's of interest here. The property owner refuse customer shouldn't notice any dramatic difference. They've still got to take something from their garage and put it at the curb. We're tell you for a number of the people this is what they're going... Kanner: Well the question that I hear being raised is, is there a more efficient, effective system that will cover more people now and perhaps in the future. And I have to assume there are other systems out there. Atkins: There is the... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #1 Page #19 Kanner: And we haven't heard from that. Atkins: The single mode where you have one driver, excuse me, as opposed to two employees. Traditionally you're going to find those in warm weather climates, Lehman: But he also said there's the possibility of working... Atkins: There is the possibility with that, yes. Lehman: But we have... Atkins: But folks until we try it we don't know. Lehman: Right. Vanderhoef: What's the budget impact here to...with our recycling fees? Atkins: We would expect, and I project that next year, you would have to have an adjustment of about $1.50. Now we have not adjusted rates upward for ten years. Lehman: Oh. Atkins: We did adjust them down. Champion: Nobody's going to believe that. Atkins: Well it's true. I mean we have not adjusted them. Champion: I think it's... Atkins: Because we will have to begin drawing upon some of those reserves to pay for this and I suggest that the refuse customer pay for this. Champion: I agree. Pfab: But my...the idea of equity here. I would imagine something like this sitting in a neighborhood isn't going to hurt that neighborhood. It's going to make the other ones look worse, where these are not. So, my point is that's one of the things and also the convenience. Why is it...why should one citizen have that benefit and the other people not have that advantage where they can wheel it out, they bring it out and bags and everything goes through. All the wrong things happen to some neighbors but not to some either. How do you...who decides? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #1 Page #20 O'Donnell: We get this big hat. Champion: You draw it out of a hat. O'Donnell: No, you know you can only do this where you can do this. P fab: Well, if it' s... O'Donnell: And Irvin we got to go back to the point of this. Pfab: I agree. O'Dormell: This is... Pfab: I think it's a great idea. O'Donnell: This is to help backs and save injuries. (can't hear) Pfab: I agree but if the benefit verses the cost isn't there, if there isn't a high enough percentage of benefit for the cost involved then I'm not interested in it. So I want to know what percentage of the City can we expect that you will be able to do? Atkins: And we can't answer that. Pfab: But these people that sell this stuff they have engineers, they know. Atkins: That's for them. Pfab: What...tell me what the other cities are. Walls: Yeah, see the problem with the salesman is they're going to come and... O'Dormell: Emie? Walls: ...tell me that 75% of the City is going to be in these carts. Pfab: But you can...you have fellow workers in other cities and what do they tell you? What's their percentage? They know. I mean without facts it gets...it creates that either you don't know or you don't...or it's information that you don't want us to know. And I'm not saying that is. But that's the impression...that's the impression I get. See so that doesn't mean... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #1 Page #21 Lehman: Well let me just say, if I understand this correctly and I believe I do, the issue here is if we can service part of our total population with these sort of things we are going to reduce the amount of impact on workman's comp and the folks who have to pick this up. Walls: Yes, sir. Lehman: The service to the consumer will not change. The cost benefit is that we are not going to have as many folks that are going to be injured on the job. Walls: That' s right. Lehman: The consumer is going to notice no difference what so ever in service. One will have a little blue can with wheels the rest of us will push ours out the way we always have in our garbage cans. Walls: Yes. Yes, sir. Pfab: Okay... Lehman: Now that's the question. Now whether or not we service the entire City or we service one route doesn't really make any difference. Vanderhoef: And the payoff... Pfab: Okay, it does make a difference. Vanderhoef: The payoff those, excuse me Irvin but I think we've heard your message, the payoff to me is that the increase in rate and the decrease in workman's compensation is a good trade off for the City business wise and certainly health wise. Lehman: And the possibility to go to fully automated... Pfab: Okay... Lehman: ...at some point. Walls: At some point. Pfab: Okay I'll go along with it if you'll start at the inner city first and work out. Lehman: Well that isn't going to work Irvin. We just told you why. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #1 Page #22 Walls: I can't... Pfab: Well you can work it. Champion: Well you don't have to go along with it Irvin. Lehman: All right. Are there four people or five or six who would like to proceed with this? Champion: Yes. Vanderhoef: Yes. Lehman: Okay, you've got a go. Walls: Thank you. Lehman: Thank you. Walls: Thanks for your time. Atkins: Okay folks. O'Donnell: Is he going to be like this on every one? Champion: Yes. Atkins: Ready for a new subject? Lehman: Yes. Atkins: Okay. Champion: Thank you. O'Donnell: (can't hear) twenty minutes. Lehman: Hey thanks. Walls: No problem. Lehman: Hey by the way I appreciated your enthusiasm. I think that's cool. Okay which...what topic are we doing now? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #2 Page #23 ITEM NO. 2. STORM WATER MANAGEMENT IN IOWA CITY Atkins: Storm water. Lehman: Storm water. Vadnerhoef: Storm water, yeah. Champion: I don't like storm water. Vanderhoef: This is one I have wanted for five years. Lehman: Well I hope this is what you wanted. Vanderhoefi I hope it is too cause I've not seen it. O'Donnell: Thank you. You want some more? Champion: No thanks I'll be flying in about a minute. O'Donnell: You want another cough drop? Champion: Yeah. Oh there were cookies? Oh my God there are cookies. Vanderhoef: Cookies and cinnamon rolls. Just go hit the radar at the break time and...the cookie monsters are (can't hear) Kanner: What capital improvement project is this under? Fosse: EPA storm water permitting. Kanner: EPA it would (can't understand) Kim Shera: Can everyone hear me okay? Kanner: It's on page 152. Shera: Is that loud enough? Kanner: EPA storm water permitting in our budget. Lehman: Did you guys get that? 152 in the budget is relative to this project. Okay go. Shera: Okay. My name is Kim Shera from the Engineering Department for those of you who don't know me. And I guess I'm going to...I'm This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #2 Page #24 going to talk about storm water management today in Iowa City. And if the EPA could they would require us to catch all of our storm water somehow before it reached the rivers and streams and to allow the sediment and fine particles to settle out because that's what contains most of the pollutants. But they realize that this would cost way too much and so they are requiring communities to do what they refer to as best management practices where (BMP's) that are a lot of the activities that we already do such as street sweeping, that clean the parking lots and clean the streets and the storm sewers of these pollutants and sediment before...so that when it rains the storm water doesn't wash these things into the rivers and streams. And they are asking us to take these activates that we do already, such as street sweeping, one step further and set measurable goals related to storm water quality. So first of all I'm going to talk about the federal regulations that affect our community and then the storm water management plan that we are working on developing. And then also how we could pay for these services that are part of the Storm Water Management Plan. So on the second slide now, talking about the storm water phase I program...it's been in place since 1990 and it affected cities with populations over 100,000. So it affected two communities in the State of Iowa, that was Des Moines and Cedar Rapids. Phase II regulations were implemented in 1999 and they're being phased in between 1999 and 2003. And they affect cities that have populations over 10,000, so that's us. And the purpose of the new regulations, like I said, is to reduce and prevent sediment and pollutants from entering the streams and rivers from the municipal storm water systems. We have to submit a Storm Water Management Plan to the Iowa DNR, who is the regulating her in Iowa for the EPA, in March of 2003. And our Storm Water Management Plan has to contain...they are saying it has to contain six elements. And we'll go through those elements. And the first one's public education and outreach and it could include such things as a lecture series about environmental and clean water issues, informational handouts on proper disposal of motor oil, pesticides, paint, cleaning products, and also classroom partnerships if we, you know, teach the kids. Pfab: Could we use the City internet web pages for this? Shera: Um-huh. Pfab: I don't see it on there. That's my... Shera: No, that's a good idea. The next item is public participation and involvement. The City would sponsor, or could sponsor community environmental events such as clean ups of different streams. Kind of like that adopt a stream, you know, you've heard of adopt a highway. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #2 Page #25 It'd be that sort of program. And the labeling of the intakes with no dumping stencils so people realize that it goes to the river and not to the sanitary sewer treatment plant. The third element is illicit discharge detection and elimination. The big item on this is... something that we don't have is we need to develop a storm sewer system map. We have a water map and a sanitary sewer map but we don't have a map of the entire storm sewer system. And we need to develop that map and then inspect and inventory all the outfalls, where the storm sewer outlets into the different creeks in the Iowa River. And water sampling and dye testing to identify the illicit discharges where...and illicit discharge is where a service line should be tied into the sanitary sewer but it's tied into the storm sewer instead. Yeah? Pfab: Okay, haven't you been video taping most of these sewer lines? Shera: Um-huh. That's one way to identify where the discharge is. Pfab: But is...shouldn't that be getting awfully close to your inventory of what's down there? Shera: Um, no because even though we have those video tapes it doesn't really put the lines on a drawing for us and, you know... Pfab: Okay. Shera: ...from one point to another. And where...and we have to identify where all the storm sewer outlets into the rivers too which we don't have that information. Champion: Can you give me an example of an illicit discharge into the storm sewer instead of the sanitary sewer? Shera: Sure. Champion: Where that might occur. Shera: Well... Lehman: Mayflower. Shera: We did the Bear Creek Storm Sewer Project as part o£the Iowa Avenue Project over on Gilbert Street and the church on the comer of Gilbert and Iowa was actually...we extended a new sanitary sewer line because they had three services from their toilets and whatever dumping into the storm sewer system. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #2 Page #26 Champion: Wow. Shera: So it's just in older services where it was a combined sewer at one time. So... Champion: Thank you. Shera: The forth item is construction site run off control. We need to develop and implement a erosion and sediment control program. And the main things is they want us to do the enforcement of it which...that's what we need to work on is providing enforcement measures. Lehman: Don't we have an ordinance now that controls erosion on construction sites? It's just the enforcement part of it that we have to address? Shera: Our ordinance right now addresses more things like sensitive areas and that...if they're around a sensitive area then they have to submit a grading permit but it's...we need to make it more restrictive I guess. Vanderhoef: I think we talk about it a lot... Shera: Yeah. Vanderhoef: ...on construction sites and we've had some pretty positive cooperation from developers but... Shera: Yep, yep. Yeah and now it'll be required. Anything that disturbs over one acre of ground will have to submit a permit to the DNR and the City will have to sign off on that and we'll need to review those. So... Vanderhoefi And that's be federal law? Shera: Exactly, yep. Vanderhoefi Okay. Shera: Right now the first phase of the regulations effected sites over five acres and now it's going...the thresholds going down to anything over an acre. So... Pfab: So are you telling me that as o£now sites over five acres are filing those with, who did you say? Sher: They file those with the DNR. Pfab: The DNR. Adn do you get copies? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #2 Page #27 Shera: No I don't think that we do. Pfab: Is there any reason why we don't? Shera: I don't know. Pfab: I mean it would look like it would be a relatively simple thing. Shera: Sure. Pfab: It'd be hit you on the way to where you want to go. Shera: Yep, I'll check into that. I really haven't looked into that. Pfab: Would you please? Shera: Yeah sure. I'll get back to you on that. Vanderhoefi And when you say one acre, if we have a plat that comes in that's four acres for housing but only one house at a time does it kick in for the whole platted area? Shera: Yes. It wouldn't with the existing regulations because you said the entire development is four acres, if the entire development was ten acres and they do one lot, yes it does. Vanderhoefi But when it goes down to the one acre... O'Donnell: Would... Pfab: It's still part often. Vanderhoef: But we might have four houses on the one acre or five or six on less than an acre. Would that... Shera: On less than an acre they don't have to do anything. Vanderhoef: Is there a way that you can approach this by a plat...with a preliminary plat...a development maybe of eighteen houses on four acres, and this is after the one acre is in, would there a be a way that that could be seen as a unit so that the storm water runoff for all of those eighteen houses would be under a plan? Shera: Yeah, yeah. We need to look into that as far as the grading, This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #2 Page #28 Vanderhoefi Okay. Shera: Or it depends on how we want... Vanderhoef: That would be a local policy? Shera: Yes. Kanner: Yeah, we can make it tougher than the federal policy can't we? Lehman: Right. Shera: Exactly. Yeah. Lehman: We could make it apply to construction sites of less than one acre. Shera: Yes we could. Lehman: I mean the federal regulations will be required by one acre we can certainly make our ordinance however we want. Shera: Yep. Vanderhoef: I'm interested. Shera: Okay. (End of side 2, 02-07) Shera: ...and that would include promoting conservation design practices for new developments and preservation of wetland and wet bottom detention basins. And also stream channel maintenance for our existing streams. The sixth element that they're requiring is the pollution prevention and good housekeeping. And this is most of the...the stuff that we do in house as far as street sweeping and cleaning of intakes, leaf pickups and accidental spill containment. And they are also requiring that we have programs in house for municipal staff training on these practices and techniques. These services all cost money. A lot of communities have started to develop a storm water utility fee to pay for these type of services. We are going to start managing storm sewer and storm water as we have water and sanitary sewer. So a lot of communities have started charging fees for the storm water as they do water and sewer. The annual cost of these services is estimated at $800,000. $150,000 of this includes storm sewer replacement or new construction. The storm water utility fee...what that is it's the allocation of storm water and storm sewer This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #2 Page #29 costs to those that contribute. The fee is proportional to the amount of storm water that a property contributes to the storm sewer system. The amount of storm water that runs offa property is proportional to the impervious or hard surface on the property. The impervious surface is any hard surface that doesn't all rain water to penetrate, such as driveways or building roofs, anything made out of concrete or asphalt pavement. So it can include concrete patios and that sort of thing too, next to a house. I've included some pictures. The first one is ora smaller house and the first picture is just a view from the street of the house. And the second sheet shows the lot area, it should be colored in pink on that sheet. Champion: All right. Lehman: It should be what? Vanderhoef: Do you have a lot number? Shera: It's 007 is what the number is on the front. You see it? It's not pink on your sheet? Champion: No. Vanderhoef: No, we just... Kanner: Some of us do, some... Shera: Okay. Lehman: 007 where is it? Champion: This one. Kanner: Second from the left. Lehman: Oh thank you. All right, I see it. I'll just write ink. Shera: Okay. Vanderhoef: Think pink, Shera: And the next sheet is what we do when we've gone out and measured some of these houses. You can see the dimensions on the house or the building itself, the concrete patio in the back, there's also some brick pavement in the back off the deck and then the concrete driveway. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #2 Page #30 And the total impervious surface of this lot is 3,800 square feet and the total lot area is about 9,800 square feet. And then the next example... Kanner: Kim? Shera: Yeah. Karmer: Can I ask you a question? Shera: Sure. Kanner: Doesn't the water from the roof go mostly into the grass though? Does it run into the storm water system? Do we have to figure that a different way? Shera: Well in a lot of houses it'll go, like you can see on this one, probably a lot of it goes on the concrete driveway on the one comer of the house. And a lot of it goes back on the concrete patio on the backside. So...and then it would eventually go onto the street. But at this point it would be hard to look at every single property... Lehman: Right. Shera: ...in the City and look at all those details. Ideally we would do that but... Kanner: Well...even...we don't even have to look at it but we would need to make assumptions. Perhaps we can say 50% from a house goes into the la~vn, doesn't go into the storm water system or whatever might be scientifically acceptable and then say...say your house is not given the same footage rating as a driveway cause we know a driveway close to 100% will go into our storm water. So my question is what would be the best scientific estimate of how much goes in. We wouldn't want to count each one but then we can say we want to reduce their footage assessment by perhaps 25% of the building. Lehman: You know, Steve, there's significant numbers on (can't understand) would take eaves drop water and mn it through ADS tubing and whatever out into the street. Vanderhoef: Absolutely. Lehman: It doesn't go into yards on an awful lot of homes anymore. (can't hear) This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #2 Page #31 Kanner: Well that's what I'm trying to get a sense of. What is that? Is it close to 75% of the water would go into the street or is it close to 25? I would think somebody might have statistics on that. Pfab: But how... Shera: But every house would be different. Lehman: But house by house you would find one with it comes right into the grass, the next house takes it all out to the street. And the one that now puts it in the grass decides tomorrow to put ADS in and haul...takes it all out to the street so it going to be really tough to try to treat roof water any different. Champion: Well you're just going to figure an average aren't you? Shera: Yes. Champion: Yeah, so... Shera: Yep. Pfab: I'm questioning if an average is the right way to go here if the idea is to reduce that amount of storm water that we need to treat. Shera: Actually it's...what we're trying to do is clean up the streets and use practices that prevent the sediment and the pollution from getting on the streets and driveways so it doesn't go into the storm sewer. Pfab: But how...so other than coming by and sweeping it all the time...that's the only way you're going to get it right? Shera: Yeah. Pfab: But is...it looks to me like the rate of the cost to the City is going to be how many gallons of water run into the storm sewers, right? Shera: No, not necessarily. Our costs...the different costs that are included in that $800,000, the street sweeping, the leaf pickup, you know, that doesn't really depend on the amount of...the volume of storm water that we have. Pfab: So...but...so the feds say the water that comes into their stream has to be clean. Is that right? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #2 Page #32 Shera: No. No, they want us to work to improve the quality of our water but they're not saying that it has to be, you know, that we have to test it and make sure that it contains less than... Pfab: How do they know we're doing...we're doing...how is the feds going to say this City is doing 50%, this is doing 70, this is doing 30? How are they going to determine? Shera: In our plan we're going to set goals for the street sweeping. You know, we would sweep so many streets and we'd try and increase that, you know, every year or also go to a higher efficiency sweeping that...like a vacuum sweeper that instead of the mechanical that picks up the finer particles. Just things like that I guess. And, you know, the storm sewer mapping and...the phase I had a lot of monitoring requirements and they found...and that didn't effect a lot of cities because they had to have a population over 100,000. But they found that that was so expensive for those communities to do that, to actually test the water quality for chemicals and that sort of thing, that they changed...phase II's more of, you know, we set our own goals and say what we're going to try and do to make this City cleaner and improve the storm water quality. Pfab: But isn't somebody watching what's coming out down at the end of the spigot, is going into the lakes and rivers? O'Donnell: We are. Shera: No. I mean the only thing, I guess, that that part is probably identifying, you know, the illicit discharges, the things that actually shouldn't be going into the storm sewer. Lehman: We are doing that under this... Shera: Yeah. Lehman: ...sort of the six things we do, monitor the water... Shera: Our plan will include those, yeah. Lehman: ...coming out of the discharge. Not constantly I'm sure. Shera: We're not required to do the monitoring. I mean we'll do dye testing and some monitoring to identify illicit discharges but we're not going to have a program of monitoring... Lehman: No. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #2 Page #33 Shera: ...cause that's so expensive. It'll just be, you know, we may have some volunteers that do some work with that, you know, that sort of thing. Pfab: Okay so you have a policy statement or goals that are fairly detailed? These are an outline but is there... Shera: This is an outline, yeah. No, we're still working on the plan. Pfab: You're still working on it. Shera: The plan has to be submitted next spring. So we've got some time on that. Pfab: Next year. And who do you submit that to? Shera: We submit that to the Iowa DNR. Pfab: The Iowa DNR. Shera: Urn-huh. Pfab: Okay. Shera: Yep, and what I'm trying to show here with these two examples is just that what we're doing is we're calculating...we're going and measuring different residential lots in different parts of the City. And just to show you that what we're measuring, the impervious surface, whether it's a smaller lot, you know this one's 9,000 square feet, or the next picture is of a much larger lot, I think the total lot area on that one is...let me get to that. Vanderhoef: 17, 18,000. Lehman: Yeah. Shera: Exactly, it's about twice as much but the impervious surface is the same. So that's what... Pfab: So how... Shera: So all the residential properties would be charged the same under this rate structure. Pfab: Every residential will be the same? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #2 Page #34 Shera: Yes. Pfab: I... Vanderhoefi Right now it's so expensive to do the impervious surface kind of measurement for the whole City... Pfab: Isn't that what we got the GDP, whatever it...? Shera: GPS? Pfab: Yes...and... Shera: We don't have that. Pfab: Also aren't there drawings like this in the City Assessors Office? Shera: The City Assessors Office what that has is the building is all. It doesn't have the concrete patios and the driveways and the sidewalk. Pfab: So the person with a little driveway is going to pay as much as somebody with a great big driveway and (can't understand) way up our end of the lot driveway and garages and all that? Shera: What we're finding...we're...what we're finding is the impervious surface is right around 3,000 even if it's a small lot verses a bid lot. It doesn't really... Pfab: I... Shera: And we're taking an average. You know, we're measuring a bunch, like 80 properties in the City and then we're taking an average. Pfab: I object to that. That's just my personal opinion. Shera: So that's the residential properties. And then I was just going to give you an example ofa commemial property. These would all be measured individual and these...individually. And, like the drag store at First Avenue and Muscatine would pay about twenty times more than the single family residential because they have that much more hard surface with the building area and parking lot that they have on their lot. The estimated storm water utility fee for a single-family residential property is around $2 a month based on the $800,000 annual budget for storm water. So the commercial property that I used in that example would pay twenty times that $2 so about $40 a month. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #2 Page #35 Lehman: Are you suggesting these would be added on to utility bills or something? Shera: Yeah, it would be where the sewer and water would be. Lehman: Okay. Champion: Just out of curiosity, where do like the downtown buildings drain into? Where do they drain? What do they drain? Pfab: The Iowa River. Lehman: Oh yeah. Shera: The storm sewer, yeah. Champion: Wow. Shera: And it's a lot harder to do repairs in that area because there's, you know, there's not much room to work... Champion: Right. Shera: ...and it's pretty expensive because it's all concrete. Vanderhoefi And won't you initially be looking at some of the outlets for those where they go directly into the river to backtrack then for materials that shouldn't be in there? Shera: Yes. Yeah. Yep. To identify the illicit discharges. Vanderhoef: Um-huh. Shera: Yep. And that's going to be...you know, it's when we submit our storm water management plan in the next spring, it's a five year plan so we have goals for each year but we don't have to do everything all at once. We set goals for each. And then we send in annual reports to the DNR saying, you know, we were able to...you know, we met our goal or we didn't and we need to revise our goal, that sort of thing. So I probably should have had this first. This talks about how we are going about the storm water utility fee. And I talked about it a little bit based on the questions as far as...in determining the rate structure we're measuring the amount of hard surface on the individual residential properties all over the City, as I said. And then we're determining an average from all those that we measured. So we can This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #2 Page #36 use that for our average hard surface of the residential property. And then the second step is to measure all of the commercial and industrial properties. We can't use an average of these because the impervious surface varies so much for different...in that category of commercial and industrial. And then the next step is to address the multi-family residential units and calculate the average hard surface for the four- plex, eight-plex, twelve-plex and then charge the accordingly to the number of units they have. In some... Lehman: Will you... Shera: Sorry. Lehman: Excuse me but if obvious...well not obviously because where you have two and three or four story multi-family the impervious surface per unit would be significantly less than where you have a single. You know like a duplex or a four-plex. Shera: Yeah. Lehman: You'll factor something in for that I presume. Shera: Yep, the ones that we had measured as far as the twelve-plex and higher, they could end up paying anything between a tenth and a half of what residential property would pay. Lehman: Per unit. Shera: So they would pay a dollar per month rather than two dollars per month. Lehman: Per unit. Shera: Yes. And some communities instead of, you know, going through all those calculations have chosen to just charge the...like Des Moines they charge the multi-family units the same as the single-family residential. So they would just pay $2 a month even though their impervious surface is probably less. Lehman: Okay. Vanderhoefi (can't hear) Shera: And the aerial photography and mapping is essential to creating our storm water utility fee. We can determine the hard surface from site plans for commercial properties but it takes a long time, probably This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #2 Page #37 about twice as long as if we had our mapping. Then you can zoom in the computer software to measure the areas. The building lines are drawn. The building lines and the driveways and everything that we need is on there. And the parking lot. Pfab: Are you... Shera: And... Pfab: Are you saying...I just...this is...I have great difficulty with this. Okay now you talked about that we got this GSA, or whatever it is and we're investing a lot of money in it. Shera: Is that the GIS? Is that... Pfab: And this is one of the reasons...GIS or whatever it is. Shera: But we don't. Pfab: Global... Vanderhoef: We don't have it yet. Shera: The GPS. Pfab: Okay we don't have it yet? Shera: We have the GPS. It doesn't work very well around buildings because the satellite feed is...it can't penetrate through the building. Pfab: Well but I was thinking that's what we paid...that's what we were being told it would do. Shera: The GPS system? Pfab: Yes, to help map the impervious surface on these...when we came time to this. Is that not true? §hera: I don't know about that. I don't know. I wasn't involved in that. Lehman: I kind of remember that but we were talking about using that for location of sewer lines and water lines and whatever (can't hear). Shera: We are going to use it for the storm sewer mapping. It'll be a great tool in that. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #2 Page #3 8 Lehman: But I think that was the purpose of the system. Shera: Yep. Lehman: For utility lines. Shera: Yes. Pfab: But it was also brought up that this was a quick way of measuring this. Now are you saying that the maps will or will not be able to do this measuring? Shera: We have... Pfab: I thought... Shera: ...the aerial photography right now. What we need to do is get the mapping, which has the...it'll have contours on it and the elevations. And then it'll also have...right now we just have photography so we just can see top view building lines. Pfab: Right. Shera: what they do then is...cause it wouldn't be very accurate for us to just kind of look at that and try and tell where the building line is and the parking lot line and so they put those lines in there for us so they're more accurate. Pfab: And...so what you're saying is... Shera: But we don't have that yet. Pfab: ...with the computer software and all that that's relatively easy. Shera: Yes. Easier anyway. Pfab: But then...easier...I think there's a tremendous inequity here to just use an average fee per house. I think that is wrong. And I just can't support that at all. I mean, do we...that was one of the reasons we bought a lot of this stuff and also it helps train people how they're going to make their plans for the future. If we're going to be charged by the amount of water that discharged then that's what we have to watch for, then we should be figuring out a way to be conserve the amount of stuff that's going into the river. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #2 Page #39 Kanner: For instance, your saying perhaps, it would encourage development...and like there's co-housing that's happening where there's limited parking so there would be less covering of the surface. A new way of development perhaps would be encouraged. Pfab: Right instead of just pave everything over. It will not be... Shera: That's the conservation...yep, the conservation design principal. Pfab: and that's...isn't that the behavior that we're trying to modify? Shera: Yes it is. Pfab: But if we're not rewarding what it's done how are you encouraging the modification? Shera: We can do that, we can measure every residential property it's just going to take a really long time. Pfab: I think...well... Vanderhoef: And very expensive. Pfab: But this...we're going to do it for a long, long time. Kanner: Wait. Now explain the computer systems, the GIS that we don't have yet... Shera: It' s j ust...it's just mapping. Kanner: ...and the ground positioning one that we do have and what's the difference and why don't we have the first one? We didn't approve that? Is that... Shera: The GIS...yeah do you want to come up Rick. I'm not as familiar with the GIS and GPS systems. Pfab: Okay if we can find a location with a GIS to find a sewer line and we can't find the edge ora driveway we must have some...there's something going funny. Rick Fosse: First of all let me define the two technologies here. Pfab: Okay. Fosse: There's GPS, which is Global Positioning System. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #2 Page #40 Pfab: Right. Fosse: And that's just a surveying tool that relies on satellites... Pfab: Right. Fosse: ...for determining the position. Then there's GIS, that Geographic Information System and that's smart maps if you will, a mapping system that incorporates a lot of data and attributes in all the points. The GIS is a very large effort and we'll talk about that during the budget process. We're talking a couple million dollars for that. GPS is a smaller piece of equipment. We have about a $20,000 investment in that; we went tin joint with the University... Lehman: Right. Fosse: ...Coralville, Iowa City, and we shared the base station equipment. To get a reading on that you need to...you need to fix on about four satellites... Lehman: Right. Fosse: ...and if you're standing right next to the edge of a building you can't get a fix on enough satellites. It was never our intent to use it to define buildings but more suited to surveying out in streets and tying down utility systems as we talked about, mapping the storm sewer system that's out there. Lehman: Right. Pfab: Okay then what's the GIS then? Fosse: That's the Geographic Information System. That is a computer based mapping system, the entire community that contains really whatever you decide is should contain. And that's an expensive proposition. We've done the implementation plan of it and we'll talk about the implementation of it during the budget process. And... Pfab: But how does that effect the amount...the ability to measure the amount of impervious... Shera: (can't hear) Fosse: Sure. The...measuring the impervious surface is...it's a tedious tasks made easier by the computer but it's still tedious. And as Rodney told This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #2 Page #41 you we've got about 14,000 residential units out there and to go out and determine the impervious area on each of those and then further define whether they're downspouts are going to the grass or the driveway is something that we could spend a tremendous amount of resources on. And what would happen is we'd spend about as much trying to figure those things out as we're going to recover in the fees that we get back from them. I mean it will add to the cost. Champion: Isn't it tree though that the 14,000 residences are probably producing a very small amount of the runoff, that most of the runoff is coming from commercial property and streets and...I mean that...ours is a drop in the bucket? Fosse: Yes. Pfab: Oh, I... Champion: I'd (can't hear) a drop in the bucket. Fosse: And I'm not a...we've looked at what a lot of other communities are doing... O'Donnell: It's not soaking in is it? Fosse: ...when it comes to charging for storm water utility fee. I don't recall any conununity has distinguished between different residential properties and in fact most communities that we talked to wouldn't distinguish between your house and Proctor and Gamble. It's all one fee just because... Wilburn: I'm looking at your last sheet. Basically you're saying some communities' just charge a flat rate to everybody, some make some...take some attempt at coming up with measuring impervious surfaces and you're talking about doing a average. Fosse: Right. We're kind of somewhere in the middle there. Wilburn: Yeah, right. Fosse: Because some communities will set up a system and it'll take three years simply to pay back for setting up that system. It's too detailed. Lehman: Is...Rick, is Boone, Des Moines and Garner, it says it's based on impervious surface. Are they actually measuring all of these buildings to come up with impervious surface? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #2 Page #42 Shera: I can tell you. I guess I'll use Boone as an example. They had...I think they have 4,000 residential homes and they measured about 400 of those to calculate their average. Lehman: And they used an average as well? Shera: Yes they did. Lehman: Okay, thank you. All right. Shera: And then they measured all the commercial and industrial properties. Where we have 1,200 they probably...I think they had maybe twenty or something. Pfab: Now are you saying they took the average or they decided they were similar... Shera: No, they took the average. Pfab: They took the average. Shera: Yep. What we've tried to do is select residential properties in all areas, neighborhoods so, you know, get a little bit of all the different types of lots that we have in the City. Wilbum: Take a sample size, take the average... Shera: Yep. Wilbum: ...give it your best shot. Shera: Yep. Wilbum: Okay, sounds good. Kanner: Let me just clarify something, Rick, with the GIS. The goal is to have a GIS to have this map of all of our properties in all of the area within the City and the county probably wants to do the same thing eventually too. And you're saying that if we wanted to get the impervious surface area we have to enter those into the GIS system. It's not out there anywhere that would be easily attainable to put into a GIS system. Is that what you're saying? Fosse: That is correct. That data does not presently exist anywhere. It would need to be determined. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #2 Page #43 Kanner: And do you...do you suspect that some years down the road if we do get a GIS that it would be added into the system, impervious surface area? Fosse: With the existing technology it's possible but it is tedious and by tedious I mean it will end up being costly because it will involve a lot of time to do that on an individual basis for residential properties. Pfab: What...go ahead. Champion: The question I have with the average charges, which I think is a great idea... Pfab: Of course you do. Champion: ...will like your time and energy and the people who are working on this will that also be those fees enough to cover those charges? Is Vanderhoefi (can't hear) Champion: ...the cost of staff doing this built into the budget? Fosse: That's been in. That's in the $800,000. Vanderhoef: (can't hear) $800,000. Shera: If we don't have to measure them all. Champion: No, you don't have to measure them all. Vanderhoef: I guess... Pfab: I think...I think, Cormie...I mean since we're going at this at this intensity here you're saying that it's fine but what about Grandma Jones living up in Goosetown and she has a little house there and you're...I don't know, your lot may be a little bit bigger than hers. Is that a fair way to treat people? Wilbum: I would think that it's more fair than what some cities are doing, not differentiating between commercial and... Pfab: Well but does that mean we should pick the worst of them and say we're better? Champion: That's not what we're doing. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #2 Page #44 Pfab: But what about the ideal people? Wilbum: I think what they're saying is we're trying to take...make an attempt to not have this take forever but lets find a way to do it that what's somewhat fair. Fosse: Well our advice is that we not spend tens of thousands of dollars to determine that one house should be charged $1.80 a month and another one $2.10 a month. Pfab: What if it's a dollar and five dollars? Fosse: That we're better offjust...what? Pfab: What if it's a dollar and five dollars? And to that...to some of those people that one dollar is as big as five dollars to somebody else and I think we have a responsibility for some equity here. And this is a long-term program. Maybe you don't do them all at once. But I think this is not right. Champion: But some of the people in older neighborhoods and might be older and poorer and have more surface are then I do for instance. Pfab: Probably not. Champion: Well...oh I don't think that's true. Vanderhoef: However, Irvin... Lehman: Well it isn't cost effective to go measure every building. Champion: It's not. Vanderhoef: ...you're going to charge that person more in staff fees to find out the impervious surface of each residential lot... Pfab: But we have... Vanderhoef: ...than you would get if you had the average and took care of those folks. Pfab: Those figures...those figures are someplace because somebody came down and got a permit. And the County Assessor, the City Assessor has that information. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #2 Page #45 Fosse: As Kim pointed out the permit only records the area of the house. It does not look at patios or driveways... Pfab: What does? Fosse: The permit. Kanner: The county (can't hear) the county permit? Pfab: You don't have...driveway's, there's no permit for driveways? Vanderhoef: No, at the county. At the county. Pfab: No, but I mean the City has an assessor too. Vanderhoef: We don't have the impervious surfaces on that map. All we have is the size of the lot. Kanner: You know what might be possible is lets say we implement this this year and then we come back in a year and say we're going to put in a program where if you think your lot is smaller than average you can come to the City and you pay a small fee perhaps and we come out and measure it. Let's say whatever it might be five or ten dollars or maybe it's a little more. Someone comes out and measure it and then we figure out some kind of table of what you would pay. Maybe that's something we could look at about a year down the road. O'Donnell: I think that could change though if you put on a patio or you put a... Pfab: Yeah but don't you have to get a City permit to do this? O'Donnell: That could be so extremely time consuming. Pfab: But doesn't the...doesn't that... Vanderhoef: But the...the... O'Donneli: We'll use an average, that's fine. Lehman: But some of this isn't worth the effort of keeping track of. Vanderhoef: (can't hear) Pfab: Some of it may not be but some of it might. Lehman: Yeah, I can't...what is it that you wanted from us? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #2 Page #46 Vanderhoef: I want to ask one more question please. Lehman: Go ahead. Vanderhoefi I want a little bit more information on the multi-family units because I think our landlords in the City are going to be real cognizant of this and they'll be the first ones to discover that they're paying more or less whether they've got a duplex, whether they've got a four-plex or whether they've got a twenty-plex. And whether it's a one story, two story, three story, four story. And I just...I don't know what the answer will turn out to be but I'm thinking that we need to be able to respond when we get those kinds of questions from landlords. Shera: Sure. Pfab: Well what about the small lot or the small impervious surface...a homeowner who... Vanderhoefi We can... Pfab: ...that's supposed to be for average. But you don't want an average to go for a big developer or a big apartment complex. They're different. I don't understand that. Lehman: Are we... Vanderhoefi Well part of it...part of it for me... Shera: There's 2,000 multi-family dwellings. Vanderhoef: ...for me is that we are regulating impervious surfaces for multi- families because we are requiring a certain amount of parking. So how that average shows up is the question that...if it's a four-plex but the base, you know, it's one story versus four stories but required parking for sixteen-plex let's say. So I just want to have an answer when I get asked. Shera: And they're going to... Pfab: But why do we just do the average that you're so much in favor of?. Shera: In all the multiple dwellings what we've looked at so far, which we've just looked at a few...I mean it, like I said it varies from anything, a tenth to the most was 50% of what a single-family residential person This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #2 Page #47 would pay. So the most they're going to pay is $1 per unit based on those figures and estimates. Vanderhoef: So you want to charge one dollar per unit no matter whether it's a duplex or... Shera: No the duplex would be treated as the single-family... Vanderhoef: Okay. Shera: ...residential. Vanderhoef: And a four-plex... Shera: A four-plex we would measure some so we have a good number for four-plexes to use. Vanderhoef: And then you're only averaging in the above the four-plex? Shera: No, we'd have four-plex...we'd measure a few four-plexes, we'd measure a few eight-plexes and a few twelve-plexes and then whatever else is a common... Lehman: Size. Shera: ...unit of development for multi-family. And so we'd have...you would measure a few so we have a number for that. Pfab: But... Shera: Or we could measure, you know, every apartment building but that's, you know, that's a lot of work too. Vanderhoefi No, I...that...I don't want that much detail either. I just... Pfab: Why don't we just use the (can't hear). Vanderhoef: I want to get an average of what a twelve-plex, a four-plex, and eight- plex... Shera: Yep, that's what we're planning on doing. Vanderhoef: That kind of thing. And then let's look at them. Shera: Yep, okay. That's what we were planning on. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #2 Page #48 Lehman: The proposal here is... Vanderhoef: We may end up averaging them from there also. I don't know. Shera: Yep. Lehman: But the proposal is $2 per month for residential, single-family residential and then they...the multi-family and commemial will be based on other factors but the residential is going to be an average of $2 per month. Vanderhoefi Um-huh. Pfab: Is there going to be a minimum and a maximum in housing units? Each housing unit will have no more than or not less than? Okay so we're talking averages, you know, but when averages...when they're in favor of some people they're great and when they're not then they're not great so you don't use them. You know what's sauce here for the goose is sauce for the gander. The person that has the small compartment unit you don't want to charge them average but a person who has a small house you want to charge them average. Shera: No we were going to try and calculate averages for the multi-family units also. Kanner: yes so it will be different rates for four, eight... Shera: Yes. Pfab: Yeah but I'm talking family units. Kanner: I don't understand what you mean by family units. Pfab: Well apartments or houses. Kanner: well it is...ifyou have four units they'll get an average of what it is for those four units and then divide that by four... Pfab: Well are they going to do the same for the house too then? Kanner: For a single-family house? Pfab: Yeah but you want that to be an average but then when you get down into more units then you want to do the precision work. But for the average property it doesn't...it doesn't pay. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #2 Page #49 Kanner: Well it's going to be an average for that too. They're not going to measure every four-plex or eight-plex individually. Pfab: Okay. That's fine. Lehman: All right, Dee you had a question before we take a break? Vanderhoef: I just have one. Champion: (can't hear) we should wait... Vanderhoef: How does the University fit into this whole picture? Lehman: Good question. Pfab: They're all...they have the campus. That's how they (can't hear). Shera: What? ?: (can't hear) going to approach them? Shera: Yes, we...yeah, because... ?: (can't hear) Shera: Yeah. Lehman: I mean they do pay the sewer... O'Donnell: The same rates. Shera: They do... Vanderhoef: Absolutely they do. Shera: See they do have...there are governmental accounts. We have 36 accounts from the University of Iowa so I'm not sure. Champion: I think you've done a great job on this and you've kept it incredibly reasonable. I thought it would be a lot more expensive. O'Donnell: Yeah, me too. Kanner: I have a question. Just to follow up though first on Dee's. So we have the authority to charge for them or do we have to ask them... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #2 Page #50 Atkins: We have the authority to talk to them. We don't have the authority to charge them. We're going to try to talk them into... Kanner: So our sewer charges...this was negotiated. We don't have the authority under state law to charge for sewer mandatory sewer charge. Lehman: Yes we do. Yes. Atkins: Sanitary sewer, the answer's yes and they pay that. Kanner: That's a state law? Atkins: Yeah. Lehman: We went to court. Atkins: We believe that under this storm water utility that the University, help me out Chuck, would be required to pay. We believe that. Now we have to check that further. Kanner: We'll talk but perhaps... Atkins: Absolutely. Kanner: ...have the authority we think. Atkins: Yes. Kanner: And I had a question about the budget here. This is to my understanding listed in two places, capital improvement projects on page 152 and then storm water management for general fund in 101, and I don't see any...well for capital I don't see any project...any money listed and I'd like it if you could break out the I01, storm water management... Atkins: We were making the assumption, I believe it's $420,000, is that the number that it shows? Lehman: Right. Kanner: Yeah. Atkins: We were making the assumption we would have this implemented, we would be in the process of collecting and that is an estimate, Steve. O'Dormell: (can't hear) 488 This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #2 Page #51 Atkins: I mean just about as broad an estimate as we can get, that we'd have that level of income. Then under the capital projects is the expense side of the thing and what it's going to take for us to spend to come up with the money. Kanner: Wait. Now you have...but you don't have anything for 03 through 05. Atkins: We have not assigned any storm water dollars to capital projects, that's correct. Kanner: Don't we have to do that? Wouldn't that be... Atkins: We will have to do that eventually. We didn't know where this was going. We think we know where it's going with you know and when we...we would come back and ultimately have to amend the capital plan to show projects that would be funded by it. But we don't have that right now. Lehman: But don't we also not really know what we have to do yet? Aren't we still early in the process? Atkins: Oh, I think we pretty well know what we have to do it's just a matter of it all coming together, Emie. And that's why... Lehman: No, as far as what we have to spend. Atkins: This is a brand new expense item and it's a brand new revenue item. And exactly how it's all going shake out I honestly do not have the answers for you on that yet. Champion: And how soon would this be implemented, these fees? Atkins: Well... Lehman: August 1st. Atkins: Yeah, we would like to get this... Champion: (can't hear) Atkins: ...up in front of you hopefully within the next couple months or so in the form of an ordinance for you to approve it. Kanner: Well I think though we need to put those figures in. We've heard figures of $150,000 or $180,000 a year for capital and then... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #2 Page #52 Atkins: Now, Klm... Karmer: ...720 for operating. It seems that we need to put those in. Atkins: We can break that down into more detail for you particularly now that we've heard this discussion for you all. We think we can give you something more detailed. Kim is a civil engineer assigned to Rick's operation. We charge her time to various projects. We have been eating the cost for storm water for her work effort. Eating in the sense that it's being charged off to the general fund. Kanner: Well this 125 in capital funds for 202, have we collected that? Atkins: No, we have not collected anything. Kanner: You know, this is the estimate...So it looks like we're probably... Atkins: Chuck, am I correct on that? We have not collected it. Kanner: ...not going to collect it this year,... Atkins: No we are not. I can't imagine we could. Kanner: 125 ? Atkins: That's going to be out of pocket for us. Kanner: And why are you estimating in 05, for storm water management, $800,000 up to 1.2 million? Atkins: We were assuming that would be the level of income. This thing would be in place by then and that's the kind of income that would be generated for cap...we'd have it available for both operations and capital projects. Kanner: Well but we're just being told $800,000 now. And now all of a sudden you're saying 1.2. Atkins: Well we'll have growth. There maybe have to be adjustments along the way. I'm assuming if you're going to use averages you want us to at least review the arithmetic on each of those averages on an annual basis. Am I...okay. Kanner: So you're $800,000 is a very, very loose estimate? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #2 Page #53 Atkins: Very. Yes, I believe it is. Kanner: Rick, is that what you're saying? Fosse: Yes, yes it is. We're going into something that we really haven't ventured into before. Those six items that Kim outlined are very different than going out and building a road, that it's easy for us to estimate what that's going to cost. And by the way, you'd asked earlier how are we going to measure our performance. What the feds found is in phase I, going out and measuring where it goes into the river was not working well because of the expanse and the difficulty getting accurate measurements. They brought a lot of people together, they came up w/th this plan with those six items and they're going to measure us on how we do on those six items. And our performance on those six items will be reflected in the water quality. That's what... Karmer: In the what? Fosse: In the water quality. The feds believe that if we do well in those six items, and I believe this too, that we'll see the benefits in the water quality. Karmer: And why...we have some smaller communities started in '94. Why did...can you surmise why they started way ahead of us or why are we way behind them? Fosse: Smaller communities jumped into it early for two reasons. One is they needed a revenue source to deal with storm water volume which we already have been dealing with pretty well. We've added storm water management plan in place for years that deals with storm water volume. They're all ready...just coincidently, they're postured well now to deal with the storm water quality issue and that's what we're talking about today is how are we going to get into that business? Atkins: And I also think one of things you're going to find is that...is as Rick said. I remember one of the first issues that I arrived. The developers were not excited about the fact that that we had storm water management requirements in our subdivisions. We did that early on and so I think we're going to get reasonable good quantifiable measurements when the real issue for the environment here is the quality. You know, what is the quality of the water that's ultimately finding it's way into...and the other thing to remember about our utilities, they're metered. Storm water is not easy to meter. So that's one of the big issues. When you meter something it's very easy for us to put together very accurate calculations. You know, again I'm sorry that it seems loose but folks quite frankly it is loose until we can begin This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #2 Page #54 pulling this all together and make it look like something and...We believe we are well along, on particularly those six points, in satisfying a good many of the responsibilities and that we're going to be able to...we sweep streets, we vacuum leave, we do all sorts of things that contribute to the quality of the storm water. Champion: Now the...I have one more question before we quit. When we start collecting fees, assuming that we all approve it, will we be able to pay ourselves back for the money we've already spent on it? Atkins: If you want to make that a policy position, the answer is yes. That's not...we'll have to go back and do some calculations. Champion: Well do we have any rough...I mean, just a rough idea about what it might... Atkins: No. Champion: No, of course not. Atkins: It could be...and it depends on what you charge. For example, we vacuum leave and sweep the streets through the use of road use tax money. That has a bearing on storm water quality. Now are you proposing to collect that money? Champion: No. Atkins: I would not think. That's a routine City service that we do that has a great deal to do with the quality of storm water. And there'll be other things too. For example, common complaint, you don't use enough salt on the street. Champion: Right. Atkins: Well we...that's fairly deliberate. You use too much sand. You're never going to quite satisfy those things but the real bottom line is when we make those kinds of decisions we are having a dramatic effect upon the environment. Ultimately being able to use those measurements for substantiating our storm water quality. Vanderhoef: But one of the things we could do, Connie, is knowing that we do the street sweeping and that we're using road use tax monies. If we set up a utility and we say 10% or 5% of the utility money should be paid back into road use tax monies and not necessarily figure out specifically every year what it cost. But a certain percent is going to go into road use tax monies for streets and other repairs. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #2 Page #55 Champion: And then I just have...I have one more general question. And although, I mean, I totally support storm water management, I think we should be controlling what's going on. Atkins: You also don't have a lot of choice. Champion: Right. I mean, I support it generally. The idea I support, not just here. But what is the environmental protection people, what are they doing about agricultural drain off. Is there any...cause that's where most of...a lot of out (can't hear) is coming from. Atkins: Connie, that has a lot...okay that has a lot...personal opinion, the answer is they're doing very little. Champion: Right. Atkins: And we experience that on our wastewater. For example, when we had to spend all the money we had to the last few years on upgrading for ammonia...well that was the ammonia that was passing through our Wastewater Treatment Plant. Champion: Right. Atkins: Now, the atropine and the other things and the farm chemicals that wash right into the river, the same repository of where we put our treated wastewater, the regulations are virtually zip. So is there a difference in agriculture and an urban standard and the answer is yes. Champion: And yet, am ! right, isn't most of the damage...What am I trying to say? That... Vanderhoefi Pollutant? Champion: Again the pollutants from the residents is minor compared to the industrial agricultural? Atkins: well ! can't make that generalization but I can tell you... Champion: (can't hear) Atkins: ...that cities...cities are being asked to do this because we're equipped to do it. Champion: Yeah. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #2 Page #56 Atkins: The agricultural interests are so broad, particularly in a state like Iowa. I mean that is...you know, you've got a guy with...somebody owns a farm of 40 or 50 acres and applies ammonia to the...and it runs into the river. Vanderhoef: One of the problems in the phase I for the big cities and such were cities like ours in that they had a fiver that ran through the middle. And what they were being demanded to do is to make sure that the water quality met a certain level as it left the city, never taking into effect what was in the water when it came to the city. Atkins: And, Connie, one of the difficulties is because it's not metered and it's not all piped...Newark, New Jersey, which is probably all asphalt and Oklahoma City which is...I think the corporate limits of Oklahoma City is well over 300 square miles. Two very different ways are going to have to be found to approach the very same issue. Champion: Yeah. Atkins: And that's part of the problem is the dramatic difference that you have in communities. Yes, sir? Pfab: Your telling...the point that we're being made here...and I'm not . saying your telling us or that sounds like it's a competition... Atkins: We understand. Pfab: ...well it isn't. But what I understand is there's no way to know how this is...we're starting out with zero, with nothing, with no information. Atkins: We are starting with a whole series of very fragmented issues that are all going to have to be brought together into one plan. We have never been asked to measure street sweeping or leaf pickup. We've never been asked to make those things. In fact there's a term they use, it's called best management practice in that if we can demonstrate the efforts that we're undertaking to improve the quality of storm water, those are in effect like points toward our plan. Snow removal is going to have an effect on it. I mean, today you are not permitted to take snow to the river and drop it in. We have to take it out to the pubic work...and we store it now. Of course it ultimately runs offto that river anyway but those are regulations that we have to live with. All of those things have a bearing on this. Pfab: Well my point that I was going to say is if... (End of side one, 02-08) This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #2 Page #57 Pfab: ...we take the sewer or the water consumption and take a percentage of that? Atkins: Well because that's...that worked to be the flat rate and that was not acceptable. Pfab: Is that a flat rate? No, a percentage of every water bill that's in there and take...find out where that number that you're... Atkins: And it ends up being a flat rate, Irvin, and what we can't...we can't demonstrate the impervious surface issue by way of doing what you're suggesting. Pfab: Well you can... Atkins: We tried that. Pfab: You can't do it by just an average of a house. Atkins: Well we believe the average is the best we can do. Pfab: Well I think the percentage of a sewer or water thing is...you said...well who stopped you? Atkins: Legal. Lehman: Irvin, how would you apply that to that million square foot warehouse out in industrial park that uses no water...? Pfab: No, I'm saying the residential. Atkins: No, he said residential. Lehman: Oh, I see. Pfab: But, I mean, it's...I think that that's at least as applicable or legitimate as just the average. O'D0nnell: There might be twelve... Pfab: I think it...I would think it would be a lot easier to defend then just the average. O'Donnell: Irvin, there could be twelve people in a house verses two. How do you (can't hear) that? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #2 Page #58 Pfab: Well some houses are bigger and they hold more people. Champion: Well some houses are smaller and still have twelve people in them. O'Donnell: I just don't think it's so... Pfab: But...so the little house that has twelve in it and you...for storm water they're getting a big deal. So you got to go get em. Champion: They're not producing more storm water... Lehman: That has nothing to do with storm water. Atkins: What I'd like is about a five-minute break for us to get set up for capital projects. Lehman: You're actually going to get about 7 or 8 minutes. Atkins: All right, 7 or 8 minutes then. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #3 Page #59 ITEM NO. 3. CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT PROJECTS Atkins: Okay. Topic, capital projects. I will be working from this. You all saw that? Passed it out to you last time. Anybody need more copies? Kanner: What? Wait. Vanderhoef: It's in the back of the budget. Champion: I got it, thanks. Atkins: It's in the back of your budget but I do have extra copies. Pfab: You have? I wasn't able to get one. Atkins: Walked out without it? Hang on a second we'll get you this. Pfab: If you have one that'd be great if you don't well I'll survive. Kanner: What he passed out last week? Atkins: Yeah. It's all right, I got it... Vanderhoefi The alternatives are not good. Pfab: Just don't eat pretzels. Atkins: Does everybody have one? Champion: I don't think I have one. Kanner: I got one. Champion: What was it in? Oh I've got it. I've got it. Pfab: Thank you. Atkins: Hang on so I can get wired. Okay everybody got their cookies? Lehman: Yes. Atkins: Okay. Vanderhoefi Well cookie monster isn't here yet. Atkins: Well here we're about to make you lose your cookies. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #3 Page #60 Lehman: All right. Atkins: I've prepared a summary and it just makes it easier, I hopefully for you all and hopefully for the public to understand. We've incorporated this into our citizen's summary of the upcoming capital projects. What I'd like to do is give you about...just a little three, four, five minute overview and then we're going to take you through fiscal year by fiscal year. Staff is prepared to answer any questions on what we've incorporated into the plan. In the 2002 capital projects we have only...we have not included those that you've awarded a contract for. As you know most capital projects you really get several times you vote on it. You adopt a budget, usually bring it back to you in the form of plans and specs, you get to vote on the bid. I mean there's always a number...Well those that have reached a point where they're not incorporated...we have not incorporated them into the plan. That does not mean that we've financed them yet. That you often approve a capital project and then we package together a bond issue for those projects a little later on. You will note in fiscal year 02, we have a rather substantial bond issue the biggest component of which, you're familiar with, is the library at 18.4 million dollars. In balancing this budget what I tried to do...if you add up 02, 3, 4, 5, and 6 it totals 54,200,000. We are in the forth year of a policy we adopted four years ago, four years, $40,000,000, $10,000,000 a year. And what I tried to do was stick as close to that policy whereby we averaged about $10,000,000 a year in indebtedness. It's a little higher than that at about 10.5 per year with the big front-end year being 02. But I tried to keep fairly consistent with that policy. It required a number of changes. We reduced...we nickel dimed...reduced many projects. As I mentioned to you going in, our road use tax money did not look good. We do have a little flexibility because apparently the reductions I made were a little more severe in road use tax than I anticipated. So if you were to add some projects that are street related there is some road use tax funds that we can work with. I tried to finance those projects that were a reading of your...ofthe majority of the Council, of what you were interested in seeing done. I think I can say somewhat unequivocally, I would not recommend selling any more debt. That if you do choose to change some projects that you do it by elimination of another project. The first...you okay? The first series of projects is fiscal year 02. Hopefully you've kind of had a chance to look through that list. I think the most notable projects in there is about on the first column, the fire station where we list as new. I have proposed that we have sufficient monies to do the design work and possibly acquire the land but we did not budget for the construction of the new fire station. That's more attributable to the operating budget and since it...I don't believe we have sufficient resources to staff that station. IowaRiver Power Dam, another large project, is winding its way and should be This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #3 Page #61 coming up in front of you before too long. North MarketPlace is the streetscape improvement, which we'd estimated to be about a million dollars. We have some plans, which are being drawn for a number of street improvements. And that's trees, street furniture, things to make that North MarketPlace area more attractive. This is about half that. Most of the other projects I believe at one time or another you've heard about or seen. I will defer to you. If you'd just simply like to sound off and we'll answer your questions. Dee? Vanderhoef: Refresh me on what the expansion is on Fire Station Number Three. Atkins: Okay. Fire Station Number three was to add, I forget exactly the square footage. They needed some additional storage space in the back. We needed to do some remodeling with respect to locker rooms and some other space. We can bring you a drawing showing you that. It's just a general remodel of that building and adding additional space. Yes, sir. Pfab: That is...that thing is really needed there. I mean they are desperate. Atkins: I don't quite think they're desperate but it a good project. Pfab: Close. I'm getting close. Wilbum: I have a question for Terry. Atkins: And by the way...the same thing. If we can't answer something or you need more detail sound off and I'll record those and we'll get those. Please, the staff is here to answer your questions. Wilbum: Can I ask you a question, Terry? Terry Trueblood: If it's an easy one. Wilbum: I think it's an easy one. I'd seen in the paper the other day the Friends of Iowa River (can't hear) it talked to the (can't hear). Tmeblood: Right. Wilbum: ...about possible Vision Iowa funds and just the concept of the project did the commission... Atkins: Ross, I don't think that's being picked up. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #3 Page #62 Wilburns: I'm sorry. Did the Commission make any adjustments in their funding priorities, the Parks and Rec. Conmaission, based on the presentation that they heard or did they give it a nod or... Tmeblood: They didn't make any adjustments but they did, if I remember correctly, it was an official vote to endorse their efforts. Yeah. Wilbum: I see. Okay. Champion: When we talk about bonding our 10 million a year are things like the sewer main project, the water main project, the park...the water park... Atkins: Some will be... Champion: Are those under a different bonding...? Atkins: Yes. Champion: Those are revenue bonds. Atkins: Yes, those would be revenue bonds. Champion: So that's not included in our 10 million? Atkins: That's correct. Champion: Thanks. Atkins: I'm just general obligation bonds is what ! flag for you because that's the one...it's the most difficult. Lehman: What's the fire apparatus item for $350,000? Atkins: Fire apparatus is a replacement of a pumper. That's about what they cost. Lehman: Is that something that could wait a year? Atkins: You know, Ernie, almost any of the rolling stock can wait a year. It's just a matter of what risk you choose to take. We had had our, help me Kevin...we had had our rolling stock on a twenty year and we found that we had to move it up to a fifteen year replacement. Fifteen year? Kevin O'Malley: It's a fourteen-year replacement. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #3 Page #63 Atkins: A fourteen-year replacement schedule just simply from wear and tear and the use and we've just been...we've been pretty adamant about making sure that our fire equipment remains top of the line. Could it be postponed, the answer is well sure. Lehman: Well I know... Atkins: We can postpone that. I wouldn't go much beyond one more year. Lehman: No, no, no. What I'm looking for items that could be perhaps postponed or whatever without having any significantly serious negative effect. Atkins: Okay. Significantly serious negative effects. Significantly serious negative effects. I mean do they work well? Are they front line units? Do we still dispatch them? The answer is yes to all that. Will that all happen last year...next year? The answer is yes to that too. Pfab: I think your asking for just this one-year is what you're looking at. Lehman: Oh yeah. Pfab: What can we do for one year? Champion: Are they...this is...the overwidth paving sidewalks... Atkins: Yes. Champion: That's new sidewalk that we pay the additional fee. Is that what that is? It's not making old sidewalks wider? Jeff Davidson: Right. Champion: So it's...while a new sidewalks being put in we pay for the additional... Davidson: Yeah. Champion: Okay. Vanderhoefi Okay, one of the things that I looked at was a Butler House Trailhead Park and then I looked at the Parks and Rec. Commission ranking of projects and I started looking down those. And as a policy in my mind, right now, I guess I don't want to start moving towards opening up a whole new project that is north of 1-80 which will have a domino effect... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #3 Page #64 Atkins: Karin. Vanderhoef: ...on several things. That yes we want to do them. We don't have the money to do them right now but rather some of the smaller projects. And as I've looked at the projects we've done in recent years, predominately they are on the west side of the river. And that is easy to understand in that we are opening up new property number one. We've got a creek that we've been following down that corridor so we have land available and we're doing Willow Creek Park and so forth. But we don't have any expended connected trail on the east side of Iowa City and frankly I guess I was a little surprised, disappointed when I saw the Highway 6 Sycamore Trail tied as number tenth as a priority. And it has nothing to do with the idea that the projects ahead of it are better. But when I look at that particular project that's one of them that impacts more people, more pedestrians, more safety issues than anything that I can propose that is north of 1-80. So I would be looking at the Highway 6 Sycamore Trail to do that sooner rather than later. And it's a smaller project. And the other one that has been sitting out there for quite some time that is very necessary in my eyes to complete an extended piece for the recreation of our east side residents is the Court Hill Trail, to connect it with the Scott Parkway where we have an overway. Atkins: I'm trying to keep tabs on all the questions. You asked about four questions so just I'll just try to knock them off...Jeft; Karin, help me. Butler House is $100,000. We have a $52,000 grant we were going to try to take... Davidson: It's the other way around. Atkins: Other way around. Davidson: I think the grants $48,000 and the local share is (fifty something). Atkins: We are attempting to take advantage of a grant and we believe it was a one-time offer. We felt that we were going to be doing the Butler House at some time in the future anyway. That's why it reached it's point on this list. Davidson: That project was originally brought forth not by the Parks and Recreation Commission but by the Historic Preservation Commission who were interested in tapping into some transportation enhancement through JCCOG which can be used for transportation improvements to historic structures. And that...it was under that guise that JCCOG apportioned those funds. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #3 Page #65 Vanderhoefi Yeah. Davidson: Now if Council determines that you'd rather move those...that $48,000 in enhancement funds to another project there's always the possibility of doing that. You run the risk that one of the other JCCOG members are going to try and get a piece of it when we go back for reallocation. But you would have to go back through JCCOG if you wanted to use that money for something different. Vanderhoef: But the TEA 21 funds certainly would be available for the Highway ... Davidson: (Can't understand) for a trail. Yep, you could but you'd have to go back through JCCOG. Atkins: Terry, on the second question was a much broader one about the east side and trails. I'll have to defer to you. Trueblood: If I could follow up with what Jeff said first that, you know, with regard to that funding I would caution you a little bit first because part of that funding is proposed to be used for a parking lot down at the bottom of the hill which would serve not only that accessible trail up to the Butler House but the main trail going through the park. And those are under plans right now. Chuck's been spear heading that primarily and has tended to look at that all as an overall project, the Butler House and the development of Waterworks Park, first phase. Davidson: And if you want...and if you want...Irvin, if I could just finish the story. At JCCOG next week there's a proposal to amend that project slightly. As Terry indicated it originally was a small parking lot, a trail up to the Butler House and a restroom. And the proposal that City of Iowa City has requested is to amend that, take the restroom part of it our for now. Hope to build the restroom later but take it out for now and instead use that money to connect from the Waterworks Park Trail up to the county's trail that they built out in Coralville Dam, which I think would be a very worthwhile project. And basically just switch the money for those so it would be the connecting trail up to the county's trail, the trail up to the Butler House and the parking lot. Atkins: Okay, now what about the... Davidson: JCCOG will be asked to consider that next week. Atkins: Now what about Dee's third question on the Court Hill Trail? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #3 Page #66 Trueblood: The commission...I can't honestly say, Dee, that the commission looked at trail projects or any of the projects for that matter of east side, west side, central, south side, whatever. I certainly see your point. I think in their prioritization the commission primarily looked at some areas to keep some momentum going like on the Willow Creek Trail. Keep the momentum going on that. The Waterworks Park development, of course. Just so people understand, I know you do but maybe everybody doesn't. The Highway 6/Sycamore Trail would take the trail that's going to be constructed this summer, along the south side of Highway 6, but if just goes over as far as Taylor or Hollywood. Pardon me. Vanderhoef: Broadway. Fosse: It's just past Broadway. Trueblood: Broadway. And this would...the proposal... Vanderhoef: Be the next... Trueblood: ...would be to take it on to Sycamore. And I think the majority of the commission felt anyway, for the time being people could go down on Hollywood and get on over to Sycamore that route. So maybe that's why it didn't rank quite as high on their priority list as some of the others. It's certainly not that it's unimportant. The Court Hill Trail, you know, has been talked about and has been ranked as a high priority for several years. And there actually is a small segment being done, or will be done this summer over toward Scott Boulevard as a part ofthe...or along with that sewer project. I... has it been done yet? I don't think so. Has it... Fosse: At the pre-construction meeting for today. Trueblood: Okay. Fosse: He awarded it last week. Trueblood: So anyway... Vanderhoef: But to connect it up is... Trueblood: Yeah. Atkins: Is that going to be current with your questions, I think? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #3 Page #67 Trueblood: I think I could speak freely and say that the commission would probably appreciate being able to do any one of these, you know, that's in their top ten. You know, and not being facetious at all but I mean the consider them all to be important. Pfab: I was just going to...one little bit of clarification on your Highway 6 to Sycamore. Where is that from, from where to where? Trueblood: From Broadway to Sycamore. Pfab: From Broadway to Sycamore. Trueblood: Along the highway. Pfab: Okay. All right. Broadway to Sycamore. Okay. The other...I think what I'm hearing you say on the Butler House is...now those funds are going to be...that's a grant. It's going to be in this area. Where in this area, in JCCOG area? Is up to JCCOG to decide? Davidson: JCCOG has decided. Pfab: Right but can...now lets suppose...now you're going in with the idea that you're going to modify that slightly. Davidson: That'll be up to all of you next week. Pfab: Right but I mean...now is there any possibility that that thing could all disappear when you start modifying? Davidson: The City of Iowa City...if you as a Council decided you want to attempt to go back through JCCOG and use this money for another purpose... P fab: Okay. Davidson: ...it's possible to do that. It would have to go through our Technical Advisory Committee and the Board. Pfab: And I don't hear you embrassing that idea with great enthusiasm. Davidson: I don't think it's been raised until right now, Irvin. That's completely up to the seven of you. Pfab: Okay. But I mean I got the feeling listening to what you said was that it may be a perilous journey if we tried something. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #3 Page #68 Davidson: Perilous in as much as when it gets to the JCCOG Board for the vote on the money, all of you have been part of those, Coralville may try and get a piece of it, the University, you know, you just never know if you're going to end up with all the money. Kanner: But they usually go with what the Technical Advisory Board recommends. That's been the case for JCCOG. Davidson: Well, and I... Kanner: And what did you say you're recommending from the staff?. Davidson: Next week? Kanner: Yeah. You said Iowa City is recommending... Davidson: The request from Iowa City has been, kind of trading off hats here for a second. The request from Iowa City has been to take the restroom out and put the connecting trail up to the county's trail in. That's what you'll be considering next week. Kanner: And Dee you're talking about maybe taking that money from up there and putting it into Highway 6? So either one is a request that's going before the Board... Davidson: Right. Kanner: ...you're just saying something different than what the staff is asking at this point. Pfab: Well I don't think so. I think that...I don't think that you're going back as far...that that money is still going to be for the Butler House it's just going to be rearranged it for the Butler. Davidson: Exactly. That's... Pfab: But iff.. Davidson: That's why we're handling it as an administrative amendment. Pfab: But if you don't...if you take it from the Butler House you throw it back in the pot and everybody... Davidson: That's got to go back to square one for reallocation. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #3 Page #69 Pfab: Yeah, okay. But I believe that Butler project has pretty wide spread...because of the county involved, I mean, there's a lot of support there. So it'll probably fly with some modifications but if you bring it back into the square one, as you call it, it's anybody's guess. Davidson: Right. And I...one thing I wanted to add to Steven's question is that over...if you go back several years sometimes it's gone according to the recommendation and sometimes it's been modified by the Board. Most o£the time it goes according to recommendation but not always. Pfab: No, I agree with what Dee's saying but it's just that I'm...I wouldn't want to lose it while we're shuffling. Atkins: Okay folks, further questions on 02. Kanner: Yeah. Lehman: I guess I have a question...I haven't studied this. We have a $700,000 item for Economic Development in 02. Atkins: Yes. Lehman: Do we have a designation for that? Atkins: No. Lehman: I really feel that in 02 with...we have to absorb that GO debt to the library, which we know we do that we probably are going to have to be a little bit more frugal when it comes to some of our other GO debt. Atkins: Thursday...excuse me, Ernie. I'm sorry. Lehman: And that is GO debt. Atkins: Yeah. Thursday the Economic Development Committee will be reviewing some promotional materials we've put together for you on economic development and one of the issues that we do raise is we identify, for the purposes of public consumption, that there is money in our capital plan that can be available for economic development. So you'll be looking at this again. I mean, indirectly you'll be looking at it. Now is this one of those projects that if you chose to postpone it? The answer is yeah you can do that. It's also something you could resurrect if you had a project. Again this is a budget, it's an estimate of what we think you're interested in doing. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #3 Page #70 Karin Franklin: While you're looking at it, too, in 03 that $700,000 is not shown for fiscal year 03 and then 04 it goes down to $300,000. I think that million was for Mormon Trek Boulevard. Atkins: We had 700, 700, 600, something else and what we have done is that we switch and did apply some of those economic development funds to the Mormon Trek extension project. Franklin: Right. Atkins: This is the reduced budget that you have in front of you. Kanner: I got a...Ernie, did you have more questions on that? Lehman: No, and I guess...give me a little clarification. We're looking through the capital projects for...are we looking for items we feel are expendable or to be delayed or more important numbers or... Atkins: Ernie, this budget..,it's up to you. Lehman: What's the purpose of our discussion? Atkins: Well it's for you to...whether you accept or reject these particular projects. It was budgeted, financed, balanced, as I pointed out to you, in trying to keeping with that same policy. Now, I still recommend to you I wouldn't sell any more debt but if there are projects in here that you wish to postpone, delay, do without, you need to tell us that and we can tell you then the financial implications of that. Whether that creates...I mean, then if you chose to apply it to some other project or not at all, that's really very much up to you. Our concern is we've got a huge bond issue coming up in the next couple months to finance the library and a variety of other projects that have already been approved. And, as I pointed out in my narrative, cash position's declining, other issues we have to he of concerned about. I want to fix this 18.4 million dollars at the absolute best credit rating we can because it's going to have something to do with particularly the library for a long period of time. And that's sort of why we're here. If you want to reduce these that's your call. We can tell you the implications of reducing it just be asking a staff. Pfab: I just something jumped out on 03 and I don't know if that means we shouldn't be jumping... Atkins: I'd prefer you didn't, Irvin, if we can avoid that. Vanderhoef: Let's go 02... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #3 Page #71 Pfab: Okay. It'll still be there. Atkins: It'll be there. Vanderhoef: Okay, the 4th Avenue Bridge. Is this the year that we've got some DOT bridge money? Fosse: Yes, it's actually federal money and this bridge is currently classified as a culvert in the DOT's perspective so it's not eligible for bridge money. We've got some money from the feds. For fiber reinforced polymer to do an experimental type of bridge, plastic bridge (can't hear). And it really does...this grant doesn't turn into a... Atkins: I'm sorry, plastic bridge doesn't make me feel real confident does it? Fosse: Well... Pfab: He said reinfomed. Atkins: Oh, thank you. Fosse: ...the salt has a hard time (can't hear) Lehman: It won't rust. Fosse: No, it's actually a fiber reinforced polymer deck with just a concrete...thank you, Marian...with just a concrete wearing surface on it. Structurally it's all carried by the polymer. But because it's new technology it's very expensive. The grant really just covers the additional cost of that expensive material. We really don't end up with any net savings. Atkins: I also wanted to point out like Irvin was ready to go to 03. I want to go through 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6. You'll be (can't understand) some tiebacks. Then we may want to go back and do some switching around. Vanderhoef: Well before you go on... Atkins: No, I'm not...just tell me when you're ready. Vanderhoef: ...there were two things that we put on the board the other night that... Atkins: Here' s your list. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #3 Page #72 Vanderhoefi Connie put one on, the traffic calming as a possiblity and, as you folks know, I have not supported the public art since it went into bonding. When we first started that public art program it was taken out of general fund dollars... Atkins: Yep. Vanderhoef: ...and we could afford to do it at that time. At this...a year ago public art funding, the $100,000 a year, was put into bonding and I think that's something that we don't have to have and certainly the cost of that art goes up with the bonding. And unless there is a huge input of public monies to match the...or private monies to match the public money I think this is one of the things that we could eliminated. And I seconded Connie when she mentioned the traffic calming program... Champion: I still support not getting rid of traffic calming because I think it produces just as many negatives as it does pros. And I just would let the traffic people take care of traffic. Pfab: What did we have in mind when we were looking at this $26,000? Atkins: We put a lump sum in every year. Pfab: So there is no defining... Atkins: No commitments. No. P fab: No defined project. O'Donnell: Steve? Pfab: I... O'Donnell: Through attrition I assume you're talking about personnel in there, Atkins: Yeah. That came up. We have not discussed that. We were discussing the general fund budget balancing at the last...the one that you had to miss. It has nothing to do with this one. Vanderhoef: And is the ramp maintenance and repair...is that for Dubuque Street on of f ramps? Fosse: That's for the Dubuque and Capital Street parking ramps. Vanderhoefi Oh, the parking ramps. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #3 Page #73 Fosse: Yeah, it's preventive maintenance on those structures. Atkins: It's a P.M. project we do every other year and we set aside cash to do that. And we show that in part of the capital plan. Vanderhoefi Okay. I was...I new I had heard something... Atkins: Nothing new. Vanderhoef: ...about we had to redo the on off ramps. Fosse: The DOT is looking at redoing those ramps as they rework 1-80. Vanderhoef: And I wondered if that was tying into. And we've got the $20,000 sitting there always for the entranceway beautification and we've pretty well taken care of that. And until the Dodge Street one is done, when we redo that street. And I think Dubuque Street is pretty well done until we...DOT gets ready to do those ramps that I would rather not spend the $20,000 on the... Fosse: This year we were going to focus those funds at the intersection of Dubuque and Park road. If you notice it's getting a little ratty in that area. We probably won't spend that whole amount but clean up the landscaping that was done some years ago and neglected. Champion: And then I wanted to ask._are you done, Dee? Vanderhoefi Dubuque and Park Road...! just want to... Fosse: Yeah. Atkins: Yeah. Fosse: Right there by the bridge. Vanderhoef: At the stoplight? Fosse: Yes. Davidson: Which project are you discussing? O'Donnell: The only one on Dubuque and Park Road. Davidson: Are you discussing this particular... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #3 Page #74 Vanderhoef: I'm not talking about a project per say I was talking about the annual allocation of $20,000 a year for entranceway beautification. Davidson: Oh, entranceway. Atkins: Yep~ Davidson: Okay, that's what we wondered. Thanks. Vanderhoef: Yes. Okay, go Connie. Atkins: Connie. Champion: Well I was wondering about...I know we had the drawing for the Waterworks Park. What is this $250,000 going to cover, if anything? Tmeblood: It's essentially phase I. Other than that will cover some of the Butler House project as well. Basically the structural stuff more than anything. It's not...it doesn't include any prairie wildflower plantings, any tree planting. It doesn't include the nature trails that we planned for part of that. It does include the grading and so forth for the amphitheater. It includes no fishing piers on the ponds. I'm trying to think back to the original plan. O'Malley: Two shelter, two parks buildings... Trueblood: Does or doesn't. O'Malley: Does. Champion: It does. Trueblood: Does include those, yeah. Champion: And when will that water park be done. (can't hear) O'Malley: Mid summer. Champion: This coming summer? O'Malley: Yes. Champion: Really. Wow. Atkins: Yeah. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #3 Page #75 Lehman: But then...well... Vanderhoef: But see that's another one of those projects that's north of 1-80 that...I'm sorry, until we can really go in with a lot a dollars and do a big project up in there, I would rather get some of these others we are looking at. New projects on the Parks & Rec. list, the pool maintenance at the Rec. center and then we've got a filtration system that went on the list for City Park Pool. I think maybe we need to slow down and wrap a few of these projects and do them before we open up any of that stuffup... Trueblood: The Recreation Center pool projects...actually we have good news because we were being told at one time it could cost us upwards of halfa million dollars to fix the problem and now we think we have it fixed and it cost us under 10,000 to fix it. So... Vanderhoef: Wow, that's marvelous. Trueblood: But we can't do that with Waterworks Park though. Vanderhoefi Yeah. Pfab: They've only got so many fingers. Kanner: But, Dee, I think you make a good point. We hear all, especially from Weatherby people, about concern for pedestrians there. And we're not going to build a bridge but maybe we can do this. It makes it a little bit easier. This could be a higher priority. Pfab: I... Vanderhoef: For me right now it is. Pfab: I'm begirming to be a lot more supportive of your idea there, Dee, as I think about it. I realize there's a risk but I presume you have an idea what the risk is on moving... Atkins: Is there questions... Pfab: ...a better idea. Atkins: Excuse me. I'm sorry. Pfab: Go ahead. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #3 Page #76 Atkins: Okay is there questions the staffwould like to raise about any of these 02 projects? Is there anything in there that...more questions I'm sure. Excuse me, Steven, go ahead. Karmer: Just so there to finish up with Dee. I just talked to someone the other day that bicycles down to Scott and Highway 6 through all kinds of weather. And I think there would be more people making use of this trail extension if we did it, not only for recreation and safety reason but for also possible commuting purposes. So I like the idea of making that a higher priority. I had a couple other questions. Atkins: Please. Jump in. Go ahead. Karmer: Bus acquisition, and that's page 147 in our project summary by name. Now we have 1.68. I'm told though we're on a long list for...in the state to get these...this funds. Atkins: Jeff can help you. Kanner: Do we have to put the funding in for this year? Have we already put that funding in? Have we sold a bond for it or can we push that back? Davidson: I assume you haven't sold any bonds for that. Atkins: We have not sold the bond. O'Malley: We haven't sold the bonds. Atkins: No. Davidson: This is the kind of thing, you're alluding to it Steven, where we need to be ready to go when the state makes the funds available. We're actually probably looking at...I think best guess right now is probably two to four years out, to come up high enough on the list that we would be funded for these, I believe it's six buses. Karmer: So the reality is we're probably not going to use it this year? Davidson: That's correct. Atkins: Yep. Lehman: But we're putting it in there just in case. Is that what I'm hearing? Davidson: Apparently. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #3 Page #77 Atkins: Yep. Lehman: Okay. Kanner: But so that will knock down our estimate for this year... Atkins: Yeah, it's...what's the match, I don't have the...300? Davidson: 80/20. Atkins: What's that? Davidson: 80/20. Atkins: No, I mean, what's the dollar figure on the match? O'Malley: It's 285,000 for GO. Atkins: 285 Go is figured into that number. Davidson: The majority...I should have maybe pointed that out. The majority of that is federal funding. Kanner: That 1394? Pfab: Of this...you were talking...of the sixteen.... One million, six hundred and eighty... Davidson: Only 285 is local. Pfab: Okay so it's an 80/20? Atkins: Yes. Lehman: That kind we can (can't hear) Pfab: Okay so now...so that's the number you're using? Atkins: Well, when we balance the budget we look at all sources of revenue and we're assuming we're going to buy six buses. And the six buses would be 1.6 million dollars. In buying those six buses we had to come up with $285,000 of it. And that's figured into our GO. Pfab: But so that...so this number is not...this is a project number... Atkins: Yes. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #3 Page #78 Pfab: ...but it is not a working number. Atkins: All of them are that way, Irvin. That's correct. Pfab: Okay so... Atkins: Yeah, now if...if you pick out a project and show it to me we can let you know what the blend is financing which is in the back of your book. Pfab: Okay, okay, all right, okay...so they're all situate... Atkins: Most of them, yeah. Pfab: ...but the blends vary. Atkins: You know I can...street pavements, produce tax. Pfab: Okay. All right. Lehman: Now, the GIS project. Atkins: Yes. Lehman: Is that a work in progress? Fosse: Yes it is. And what you're seeing in the budget here, and it's reflected on these pages, is not an implementation of our GIS, the full GIS program. That is a multi-million dollar task and it does entail annual, excuse me, maintenance expenses after that as far as staff to run it and upgrade...keeping the data current. We don't feel that we're in a financial position to propose that to you right now. What is in the budget is enough money to upgrade our existing mapping system. We got new aerial photography in April of 02. This money is to use that aerial photography to have it orthorectified, develop the maps, some of what we talked about earlier with storm water management. It will serve as a base map not only for our storm sewer system but would superimpose all of our other utilities (can't hear) Lehman: But you're not showing anything in 03 for GIS? Fosse: No. Atkins: No. Kanner: And you're showing only 48,000 in 02 in our book. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #3 Page #79 Fosse: That...there' s a typo... Atkins: Current (can't hear). Fosse: ...in this book. This has (can't hear). What Steve's working from has 600,000. Lehman: 600,000. Atkins: That's the correct number. Kanner: In the book here it said 48,000 so you're saying that should be 600,000? Lehman: Yes. Fosse: That's right. And that's what was in the budget that you approved last year. Lehman: Right. Champion: Could we just go back a minute to see...I mean, maybe we could settle this. Is anybody else interested in moving that Waterworks Park up a few years and concentrating on what we have now? I mean, we don't have any money to hire personnel but we're going to give Terry another park to take care of?. I mean, I don't know, I just think we can put that off. Lehman: I would move that out a couple years. Pfab: Which one are you looking at? Champion: And give...use the money for another park. Vadnerhoef: Waterworks Park. Lehman: No, I'd move it out. We need to reduce the amount that we're selling in GO money. Champion: Right. Well I agree. Pfab: Is this any...is there any matching in here? Champion: It's all our money. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #3 Page #80 O'Donnell: What do you think? Take care of it in like 2, 4, 5? Lehman: This is (can't hear / everyone talking). Trueblood: The thing you need to keep in mind is that we're going to have to go out there and mow that regardless. Lehman: I'm well aware of that. Trueblood: Well I mean it really...I mean from Connie's standpoint...right now the project is, you know...a number of the trails are already constructed because they're also service roads. So what the rest of it will do will be to open it up so the public can use the trail system in there and the parking lot to do so, and the amphitheater, so forth. But all of the area that's not developed is essentially is just going to be weeds and we can't just let it grow. We're going to have to keep it under control. So that part of it...really it'd be less maintenance for us if we could plant it in prairie grasses. Pfab: Okay so has your breakdown is 250,000. What I kind of...this much for this, this much for this in rough round numbers. Trueblood: I'd have to defer to Chuck. Schmadeke: It would be hard to take a look at that because this 250,000 is tied together with the Butler House Trailhead project. Trueblood: It's really a $350,000 project. Lehman: Yet the more we...my person feeling is that's going to be a magnificent park. Atkins: It will be. Lehman: And right now that's probably more of a problem than a benefit. Cause as we start developing the Waterworks Park, because it's going to be so attractive and it's going to be such a...the pressure to pour more and more money into that facility...because it's going to be a remarkably attractive area. I really think if we can kind of slow it down...cause, you know, you're looking at 250...350,000 to do the two. Then next year we come up, we've got the shelters, we got a parking lot, we've got some maintenance work done and people are starting to use it...and don't misunderstand me, I love people using parks but we are creating a demand that we're going to have to satisfy. And it appears to me that that's going to become a very, very expensive proposition. Now I'm not sure we're ready to handle yet. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #3 Page #81 Vanderhoef: Well the other piece for me is opportunity and as we look at our future years we're looking at the phasing of the Mormon Trek extension. And that is also on the trails plan and has been right along that there would be the phase III of the Willow Creek Trail that goes around the south end of the airport and goes on over to 921. And ifI were going to do any more expansion I'd rather see that piece of willow Creek Trail on the west side taken care of before I open up north of I-80. It's... Tmeblood: Some of the project, I don't know...Chuck, there may be some of that project that's as much a benefit to the Waterpark... Vanderhoef: Opportune. Trueblood: ...as to the park. Schmadeke: Right, there are access to the wetland area (can't hear). I think we need to keep maybe 50,000 of that back to add to the Butler House Trail and parking. The parking lot is tied together and paid for in part by Waterworks Park (can't hear). Vanderhoef: So we could... Champion: We could take out 200,000 and leave 50,000? Vanderhoef: And still keep the 100,000 half of which is TEA 21 and half of which is GO. Champion: I could do that. I could live with that. Davidson: You need 52,000 to match the 48,000. Lehman: Well I guess do we have some sort of...do I hear a consensus that perhaps that 250,00 would be reduced to 200,0007 Champion: Yeah. Trueblood: The only thing I feel obligated to remind you is that this is our commissions number one priority on their capital improvement list. Lehman: I hear you. Champion: We're not getting rid of it totally. Vanderhoef: No. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #3 Page #82 Trueblood: (can't hear) Vanderhoef: And Court Hill is still is sitting there at number two or number three and has been for a very long time. It's sort of like Hunters Run. It keeps getting pushed back and pushed back and pushed back because something more exiting comes up. Lelunan: What would happen if the Market Street streetscape got postponed for a year or two? Vanderhoefi That's half a million dollars. Lehman: It's half a million dollars. Atkins: Yeah. I don't think we're breaking face with that. We had...we didn't do anything...Two years ago is when we first put this idea together. Lehman: I know. Atkins: Didn't do anything this year. I think there is some anticipation that there's going to be some work done up there. Wilbum: I was going to say that I walked away with that impression. I think Connie did, that something was going to happen. So... Champion: I'm not willing to take that out because we have a promises for that. Atkins: That's all GO, too. Vanderhoef: That's the problem. Lehman: GO, that's the big part of it. It's a big hit. Vanderhoefi Yeah. So many of these others are tied to road use tax and those kind of...water funds, (can't hear) and so forth. Champion: Although the Waterworks Park is not tied to water funds is it? Lehman: No. Vanderhoef: No. O'Malley: Yes it is. Atkins: Some is. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #3 Page #83 Champion: Oh it is? Atkins: Oh yes. A good piece of it is. O'Malley: Yes it is. Waterworks Park is funded by the water revenues. Vanderhoef: Oh that alters it... Champion: Oh... Lehman: Wait a minute. The park portion of that is not. Atkins: There's a park portion of it and there's the water...I mean, you made a policy decision... Champion: Right. Atkins: ...that precedes, I think, everybody here that it was...that we would do to the fullest extent practical...that the parks improvements would be done by General Obligation Debt... Lehman: Right. Atkins: ... and not water revenues. Lehman: Right. Atkins: I interpreted that literally but also interpreted that if there is...it is some improvement that has some bearing upon the water system that we could use water revenue bonds. Champion: So... Atkins: Now that isn't... Champion: The part you're talking about, that's important for the water plant... Schmadeke: I think the parking lot is important for the water plant. (can't hear) Atkins: Yeah. And that's what we're paying for with water revenues. Champion: Oh, okay. Atkins: And those kind of things. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #3 Page #84 Vanderhoefi And that's 50,000 but the other 200 is GO? Atkins: I don't have it... Kanner: No all 250,000 is water revenue. Atkins: Remember this project was a million dollars about three years ago. Champion: Right. Atkins: We started cutting it up. And when we started...well, it's almost like your sorry cause we cut it up cause it was a million and we cut it up into four $250,000 pieces. And now we're down to one and now we want to whittle away at that one. That's kind of where I see us going. Lehman: I don't...can we make a connection to this and water funds? The people are paying for this park out of water rates? Atkins: I need to go over with Chuck...now for example... Schmadeke: Pretty much cause there are some elements that are parks related (can't hear) Lehman: Yeah, park shelters I would think are park related, right. Atkins: Yes. Schmadeke: The trail it ties together is more access (can't hear) Atkins: Yep. Schmadeke: (can't hear) Atkins: Folks, I was trying to put as much as I could in water revenue to save the GO. And I just...and it is listed here as water. Now that doesn't mean we can go back and go through the project in detail and pull out elements...if you wish to reduce $50,000 worth of G...you know, of bonding for this, we can do that but I really would need to get...sit down with Chuck and Terry and kind of figure out what we're going to charge to water and...I thought we pretty well had that figured out. Apparently I didn't. (End of side two, 02-08) Vanderhoef: ...Orchard Park, the art... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #3 Page #85 Atkins: GO funding, Dee, is about 6 million dollars of the i7 that we have. You see that in your summary? Vanderhoef: Um-huh. Atkins: Okay. Vanderhoe£: But for 02... Atkins: And I'm suspect... Vanderhoef: ...much of that is already under contract so I was going down the list here...you know, the fire station, that's GO. The plan for the new fire station is GO. The GIS is GO. The Power Dam is... Atkins: Water. ?: Water. Vanderhoefi That's from water. O'Malley: And GM. Vanderhoef: But they...then the annual allotments for inter...bike trails, the land acquisition for parks, the overwidth paving, those are all...are annual allocations to be able to take opportunity with projects as they come along. Atkins: Yup. Vanderhoefi So I don't see large item kinds of things that we can... Atkins: Well I'll check the arithmetic, you know. Could we have made a mistake in the summary? And the answer's yes. Kevin? Vanderhoef: I didn't... O'Malley: Dee, if you want to look at a list. There's a list on page 182. Now some of that list has been awarded. Vanderhoefi Yeah, and that's why we were working off of the other list. O'Malley: Right, but that list actually shows you the projects that are just GO related. And we can tell you which ones have been awarded if you don't remember. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #3 Page #86 kanner: Well for Iowa Power Dam, that's not all water revenue. In fact, that's 1.255 million. What has been awarded already for that? I would assume that a large part of that is the bridge over the dam, would be GO? O'Malley: I don't believe any of that project has been awarded yet. Kanner: So that's possible. Lehman: But the bridge I think is a small part of that. Kanner: Well we got 1.255... Atkins: Yeah. Kanner: ...that's GO. Atkins: And that's what Steven's talking about. That's trail, bridge, all that stuff that's going to go into that dam project. Kanner: So that's something that's possibly up for cutting? Atkins: Sure. Kanner: Going off of what Dee was saying that this is something...it's not all water revenue. Lehman: What is that 1.25 million dollars going for aside from the dam? O'Malley: Bridge across it. Kanner: The bridge is not cheaper. Atkins: We're...remember it's the trail... Lehman: (can't hear) across the dam. Atkins: It is a trail project, Emie. That dam project, while it's intended to, you know, maintain the water... Lehman: How did you use the word dam? Trueblood: We should put referring to our trail project back. Atkins: I'm sorry about that. I'm trying to help, make some sense for Steven's comments. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #3 Page #87 Lehman: The bridge... Atkins: There is a component of the Iowa River Power Dam project that is trail related. Lehman: I realize that but a million point two...1.2 million dollars... Atkins: Okay, well a trail across the river. Lehman: That is the bridge? Schmadeke: It extends over...you know, originally it just extended across the dam. Then they changed the outlet scheme to the reservoir but the spillway will be under water a lot more frequently. So now we've extended the bridge across the spillway as well. Atkins: And it's... Vanderhoefi We haven't seen that project so I wasn't aware that... Atkins: But you remember all the stuff with Coralville. We had...its all tied into Coralville's trail project and we fix it up on the peninsula. Vanderhoefi Yeah, I know where it goes but the addition of this and the price tag that is coming with it. Atkins: We've got to bring this one back to you then for more discussion. Certainly. Champion: I mean it's obvious that we're interested in cutting out some capital improvement GO money at least. And... Lehman: Or phasing at least. Champion: Or phasing is a little bit. Lehman: The trouble with that sort of thing is though when you're in the process of building that dam, if you try to make two projects out of this... Champion: Right. Lehman: ...instead of 1.2 you got 1.6 when you go back and try to do it later. Atkins: Yeah. The idea is to get it done now. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #3 Page #88 Lehman: You almost have to do the two together. Atkins: Yeah. Kaimer: But are there possibilities of cutting it back even further? Having something there but not as elaborate? Fosse: That's already been done. The project... Lehman: This is the stripped down model. Kanner: I know we don't have the Coralville gazebo anymore. Atkins: That's true. Fosse: There will be that gazebo component on the west end but that will be funded entirely by Coralville. Kanner: I thought they booted it, that gazebo. Fosse: Perhaps they chose to do that. But as the project was evolving it was becoming too elaborate and we said time out, back to the drawing board and we either...we have scaled it back. Kanner: Can't you just put a rope across out there? Fosse: No. Atkins: Pulleys. Fosse: Certainly one of the components of this...and this is where it's important to include the bridge with the dam improvements. Part of what it's used for is the state rescue operations. The County Sheriffs Department relies on that walkway that's up there now to go out and help pull people out that are caught in the undertow of the dam. The new bridge is going to have specific components built into it to facilitate those rescues. And for us to repair them without putting anything back leaves them without a means to do the rescues. Champion: Maybe the county would like to share in the cost of it. Atkins: No... Lehman: (can't understand) This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #3 Page #89 Champion: Right. Okay. Atkins: Can I tell you one thing? I see what you're trying...you know, you want to make some reduct...you might be better to step through all five years, get a feel for it. Champion: Right. Atkins: And then you see how things fit together. I think you might be...I mean, I've made notes on those that have some questions by a couple of you at the very least. Vanderhoef: Doing the plans for fire station when we know that it's probably three years out... Atkins: Yeah. Vanderhoef: ...we can put off drawing up the plans for the new fire station. Atkins: Well the plans are almost drawn. Lehman: Well we can always... Vanderhoef: Get the land. Atkins: Yeah. Lehman: ...take that pumper and move it another year. Vanderhoef: Yeah. Lehman: That's 350. Vanderhoefi 350,000 on a pumper and buy the land but not do the plans for the fire station. Lehman: I don't suppose we can cut the (can't hear) any can we? Atkins: No. Kanner: Emie, you just poured the dirt though. Lehman: I know, I know. Kanner: I wanted to go back to the GIS thing again. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #3 Page #90 Atkins: Yeah. Kanner: That's probably why we thought we were mov...we had the GIS or were substantially into it but apparently it hasn't been funded yet...hasn't been bonded out. From what I'm hearing that's correct? This 600,000 part has not been bonded out yet? Atkins: No. Lehman: That doesn't appear on page 182. Atkins: No, there was...that's the mistake we were talking about. Lehman: Oh, it belongs there? Atkins: There has been money spent on GIS. That involves Rick's time... Lehman: I know. Atkins: ...and other time. This represents the big money. Kanner: Look, so my point is one, perhaps we can delay it and two, we can look into seeing if we can do something with the county. Champion: We tried that. Fosse: Oh, we are coordinating work with the county. In fact we met with them Monday afternoon. The county, the University, Coralville and Iowa City all meet regularly to coordinate our efforts on GIS. The county is well ahead of us in the GIS arena. And what we're looking to do with this mapping is to meet our short term needs, which is a better mapping system, tools to comply with storm water requirements that we talked about, the tools we need for the storm water utility and at the same time posture us for an easy conversation when the GIS at a later date when we can better afford it. Kanner: and what ifwe...what possible areas are there for cutting back from teh 600,000? Fosse: What we can cut back on would be the accuracy of the maps, some of the attributes that will be within the maps. Basically you're cutting back on their usefulness. And what we're in the process of doing right now is writing the spec for those maps. And we're...since it is a substantial investment and once you make it it's done, it's hard to go back and retrofit degrees of accuracy. What we're trying to look at This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #3 Page #91 what meets our needs. We don't want to save a nickel here but cost us a dime later. Lehman: In other words you're saying don't mess with this one? Well say it. Fosse: Okay. Lehman: I mean if it isn't going to be a product that's worth having, a do what we want it to do, then we don't want it. I mean, either do it right or don't do it. Is that what you're saying? Fosse: Yes. Lehman: That's what I thought you said. Okay. Kanner: Well, or there's the possibility, Ernie, of delaying. Lehman: Are we in the middle of this project? Fosse: No, we're writing the specs on it right now. But keep in mind if we delay it that makes it difficult for us to comply with the EPA phase II regulations because we do not have a map of our storm sewer system. This is going to serve as the basis for that map and we don't have the means, the tools to help us develop the storm water utility. Lehman: How much of that can be funded by the fees we're talking about collecting next year? Atkins: Good point. Fosse: A portion of it. Champion: Well good. Lehman: I mean that could be... Fosse: Oh yeah. Atkins: We haven't applied those monies. Lehman: Part of this could be paid for by the fees we're talking about and wouldn't necessarily be GO, all of it. Kanner: But, Rick, I...Ernie, I think that's a possibility but also, Rick, I don't quite understand the county...they're going ahead and their just going to leave a whole with...where Iowa City is. They're not concerned This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #3 Page #92 with that? What if we don't do it? What...they have to get a map, they want a better map for assessment purposes. Fosse: Right. Kanner: And they need to know where all these things are also. Fosse: That's it exactly. There focus is assessment purposes. They have different needs so they're mapping system is going to be of a different accuracy and it's going to have different attributes than they're looking for. Ours is going to have a strong emphasis on infrastructure and infrastructure management. And we need a lot more information in our mapping system than they do when they're simply looking at parcels andperhaps acenterline of the roadways. Centerline of the roadways is about the only thing that they plan on including as infrastructure in that system. Champion: Okay. Vanderhoef: Tell us about this...I'm presuming its community protection capital outlay? Lehman: Or is that the conunereial area over on the north side? Atkins: No, its...forget the (com. prot?). It's called capital outlay $500,000 a year. What we do is budget within our general fund a lump some of money from GO debt to pay for large equipment purchases and things such as that. Lehman: Okay. Where do I find the... Vanderhoef: This is contingency in other words? Atkins: No, it's a separate project, Dee; you'll see it as a separate item in the budget. Yeah. Lehman: Well I don't see... Atkins: What was your...I'm sorry, Ernie. Lehman: ...the Market Street streetscape in here. Atkins: You didn't see what? Lehman: The Market... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #3 Page #93 Atkins: Market? First column, right at the bottom? Lehman: No, this is on page 182, which is GO funding sources and I don't see that there. Davidson: It's in 03. Lehman: I beg your pardon? Atkins: It's in 03. Davidson: It's in 03. Vanderhoef: It's in 03. Lehman: Well it's shown in 02 here. O'Malley: Emie, we had a couple of errors when we prepared this report and page 182 is just one of those pages that had some of the errors. Lehman: That's the page that we're not supposed to look at. O'Malley: Right. Champion: They sent us all new pages. Lehman: No, no I've put all them in. Atkins: No, I'm sure he corrected them. O'Malley: No not these pages. Champion: Oh, I didn't put my corrected ones in. O'Malley: Oh. Lehman: Yeah, you're right. Market Place shows up in 03. Atkins: Yeah. Vanderhoef: Which still could happen this summer or... Atkins: Yes, it still could happen. Vanderhoef: Or it could wait until the... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #3 Page #94 Atkins: What I've tried to do is look at the bond and aggregate over a four or five year period. Your right, sometimes I will miss a year but I usually if it' s...we're going to sell the 02 bond for the library and all those things in march of 02 and then another three, it could be March of...before we get around to doing it again. You want to try looking into 03? Vanderhoef: Yeah. Atkins: Yeah. Lehman: Yeah, we haven't done anything with 02. Atkins: Well we're going to come back. Vanderhoefi No, but lets look (can't hear). We know where we're stuck and we may (can't hear). Atkins: I think the important ones we have here, just to call your attention to, is the Mormon Trek, Highway 1, Highway 921. Jeff I'm sort of going to ask you to...we took that...that's the one around the airport. We cut it up into pieces. Why don't you just kind of get them thinking on what this is all about. Davidson: And this is about a $7 million project. And what you see here is the first portion, which we hope to take as far as we can. It has a little bit less than 200,000 of federal aid. The remaining balance is...let me see what's it at? Vanderhoef: 260? Davidson: Whatever the balance is is the matching funds for that. Karmer: 2.4 then for that? Davidson: Yeah. Pfab: We're talking 9217 Davidson: Right. It's Highway 1. We were starting at the Highway 1 end and probably going to just south of the airport in the vicinity of the William's farm. We had a discussion a couple months ago, wasn't it, with the Danes and the Williams and all that. And that's under design right now. It'll be a two lane arterial with sidewalks, eight-foot sidewalk on one side. Dee mentioned the Willow Creek Trail extension. What we're trying to do tentatively, and the Regional This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #3 Page #95 Trails and Bicycling Committee did some work with us on this, is in lieu of trying to get under Highway 1 and around the south edge of the airport on an exclusive trail, which looks like a real financial ordeal, to do either one of those things. We're going to find some way to come up from where the Willow Creek Trail terminates fight now in the vicinity of Dane's Dairy, the retail store and come up to this intersection where we're starting this road and then use that eight-foot trail to get ourselves down. And maybe clear across the fiver where at Napoleon Park it would hook up with the Iowa River Corridor Trail. Pfab: Are you thinking of crossing the highway at the Dane's Dairy, the retail spot and then going out toward...? Vanderhoef: No. Davidson: No. Coming up and crossing at the intersection... Vanderhoefi The Mormon Trek intersection. Davidson: ...where we can do a nice safe pedestrian crossing. P fab: Okay. Kanner: So this...wait. So this is 1.9 million state grants, is that road use funds? Davidson: No, that's TEA 21 money through JCCOG, Steven. Kanner: The 1.97 Davidson: Yeah, that was the money that you originally had on South Sycamore... Lehman: Right. Davidson: ...and you then moved over to this. Lehman: Moved it. Vanderhoefi Um-huh. Pfab: That's 1.97 Kanner: Okay and 700,000... Atkins: Jeff, is it important to give them a little heads up on that Dane Road, airport, how that fits in? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #3 Page #96 Davidson: We're trying to coordinate the closing of Dane Road in conjunction with the extension of the airport runway. We're coordinating all that and hopefully there'll be some cost savings. It's still being worked out but there'll be some cost savings there as well. Pfab: Your going to be closing what? Vanderhoef: Dane Road. Davidson: Dane Road at it's intersection of Highway 1. Pfab: Okay. I was...I thought I heard something else. Atkins: I have a map if anyone wants any doodling done... Pfab: Okay, that'd be great... Atkins: ...to help you out. Pfab: ...just for a second, yeah. Lehman: Well the GO debts for 03 is 1.8 million. The GO debt aside from the library in 02 is over 6 million. It would be very nice if we could equalize that a little bit. Vanderhoef: Well let's look at... Atkins: Ernie, there's not a real advantage...I mean, Kevin please feel free to speak to this but there's not a real advantage to that. We...I mean we look at debt in aggregate over, you know, a number of years. Lehman: yeah. Atkins: And that just happens to be a year that these projects come on line at a certain time. Lehman: You're right but if we're going to keep the percentage of our tax bill with... Atkins: Yeah, the 25%... Lehman: ...the percentage that we're talking about we're going to have to find some way of doing that. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #3 Page #97 Atkins: Yeah, if you goal is to reduce...to get down to the 25% then the answer is, I understand that. But it's still an aggregate amount of debt because remember it's not the sale of debt that's critical, it's the payment you've got to make. Lehman: Yeah, that's the part... Atkins: That's the dollar figure that drives the levy. Pfab: Okay but are you saying that you're not concerned about the rating even though the... Atkins: Oh, no. I'm very concerned about the rating. Pfab: No, no, no. But either way...no, no I didn't mean that. Atkins: Okay. Pfab: Neither on of them...they were neutral on the rating? Atkins: No, I don't think so. Pfab: So... Atkins: I think, you know, they look at...one of the questions that a rating agency will ask us is what sort o£bonds do you anticipate over the next couple of years. And we have to be able to demonstrate that. And we can show we've got a big sale and that it drops off for a couple of years. Now we'll be paying off other bonds in the mean time. But if you also notice, it picks back up again in the... Pfab: But going back to Ernie's point there, apparently you had already considered that and for some reason you weren't as concerned as Emie is because of what? Atkins: I am not...Well I am not concerned about... Pfab: As concerned, I said. Atkins: Okay, I am not as concerned about it because we do draw it down this one-year to 1.8 million dollars. And so the bond rating folks will look at it and say okay you got a bid hit, you do pull it down but it does begin to creep back up again. Pfab: Okay. So...and I... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #3 Page #98 Atkins: The planning is the important issue. Pfab: Okay but now you're talking about going to the bond money market at what time here? For the... Atkins: We'll probably go to the big one some time in March. O'Malley: That's correct. Pfab: And that's probably as ideal as you're going to get from all this. Atkins: That's correct. Pfab: I mean, so if you're going to go out and go for it, it's probably as good as it's going to get. Atkins: Yep. I think you're right. Now, are we okay on the Mormon Trek? You got a drift about how we're going to split that up? We do have to add a project to this year because of something that's pending that's a sewer project. The Scott Park Trunk, you have an annexation pending for the Iowa City Care Center. It is likely that once they're in the City that they will be, I assume, instructed by the DNR that they got to hook up to our sewer. I'm sure that it's part of their annexation petition to you. They're going to want to have that commitment. It's about $600,000. It does affect a rather substantial part of town with respect to opening up for future...Karin, does that summarize it, do you think? Okay. Pfab: But that again is not a GO bond. Atkins: No. Pfab: But it is...okay. Atkins: Yep. And as long as we can make the commitment to it soon, and I'm sure they're going to want it sooner than later cause I think they have those lagoons behind the place. They've got troubles. Franklin: There's probably some flexibility there in that it would not necessarily have to be done in 03. It could be 04. Atkins: Okay. Franklin: But... Pfab: Is there any advantage to wait? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #3 Page #99 Atkins: It's really kind of up to them I think. And then we'll have to do whatever planning you have to do with that. Pfab: But again, once they're hooked on there's income. Atkins: Yep. That's right. Kanner: Well perhaps it dries the land rush out there to and... Atkins: It does have some bearing on it. I think Steven's right about that. Kanner: ...in that areas. Pfab: What's the difference if it's today or tomorrow? Kanner: Well I think that's what we talked about in planning today verses tomorrow. We... P fab: You know (can't understand) Atkins: Okay. Kanner: I think there is some beating in...we want to have orderly development as much as possible. Atkins: Connie? Pfab: That is what I was asking. Champion: I don't know, I don't have the master plan with me but the airport extension is another $745,000. I know that's a loan to the airport but how are doing, and you probably don't know this offthe top of you head, in getting paid back some of that money we've loaned them? Atkins: All of that's 90/10. Champion: Right. Atkins: The airport just reimbursed...what kind of note are we carrying on the airport now? O'Malley: We had carded all of maybe 15 months we carried the airport for over a million dollars and we got the money in November. Champion: Oh we did get (can't hear) This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #3 Page #100 O'Malley: So we're square with that. Atkins: So we're square with them now. Vanderhoefi 15 months to get the...that was the land acquisition for our airport protection zone? O'Malley: That's correct. Atkins: Yes. Before they got it reimbursed. Pfab: That's how you planned though. Atkins: Yeah. O'Malley: That's not how I plan. Atkins: Oh no, we didn't plan it that way. Pfab: No but I mean you...that's not... O'Malley: I know now, Irvin. (Everybody talking at once) Champion: This is a runway seven extension? Atkins: Yeah. Champion: Now I know they don't have seven runways but... Lehman: 2, 4. Champion: Right. Atkins: I (can't understand) 6, 2, 4 and they added 7 as a number (can't understand). Cause this one's going to get closed. Champion: Okay. Atkins: And you can see when you bring the road around it has a beating on it. Champion: Well if aviation hasn't picked up then why are we extending this runway? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #3 Page # 10 I Atkins: Is what now? Champion: If the aviation is depressed as they say because of the September 11th tragedies... Atkins: I see. Champion: ...then why are we putting another $745,000 into this airport. ?: It's a little premature to say that it won't pick up. Pfab: For stimulation. Atkins: I think that's probably a question you should ask an airport person. Champion: I think I will. Atkins: Okay. Lehman: Dee, did you say the ramp maintenance is a bi-annual cost? Atkins: Every other...yeah, every other year. Lehman: Well we got 300,000 in 02 and 03 both. Champion: But that's parking revenue. Atkins: It's parking revenues. Lehman: But we don't... Atkins: There shouldn't be one in 04. We just did one, we're probably...we're going to cover the debt with it. Lehman: (can't hear) Vanderhoef: You've got 02 and 03. Lehman: Two in a row. Atkins: I'm assuming that's how we're going to pay for it. I'll check that for you. That we have done one and we're... O'Malley: We've already...we just completed one. Atkins: Just completed one and haven't paid for it yet? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #3 Page #102 O'Malley: Right. Lehman: Oh, all right. That's right. That's right. Vanderhoefi So that's the 02... Lehman: Done in one year and paid in another. Atkins: And we p~y the next. Yeah. One of those projects in our...I do want to flag for you because there was a little fussing about it, that First Avenue sidewalk. We still have that little piece left by the Thomas property: however, Rick has worked with the...Tell them. Fosse: We're working with the apartment owners to get at least that protion done. Atkins: We think it's going to work out. Pfab: In other words they're going to pay it, right? Fosse: We are participating and... Atkins: 25,000. Fosse: 25,000. Atkins: And they're going to pay 50 some. Fosse: Yeah. Pfab: I guess I'm questioning, why are we getting involved in it? Atkins: Because that's the only way we're going to get it done. Pfab: Didn't they...they just bought that with their eyes wide open didn't they? Atkins: Yep, there wasn't...that's up to you all. Rick brought the issue to me as...if we're in the midst of negotiating, we need to offer something. We came to that conclusion. If you find that unacceptable you may strike it and we won't be...but there won't be a sidewalk then. Pfab: Why... Fosse: There is another thing that we are getting through this. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #3 Page #103 Vanderhoef: Just a minute. Let's hear Rick. Fosse: That apartment building was developed back when that was a county right-of-way, an easement if you will. We have no public right-of-way from the centerline of First Avenue in front of that place. They're dedicating the public right-of-way as a part of the project (can't hear) rather than simply... Pfab: So we're getting something out of it. Fosse: Yeah. Lehman: We're getting half of our street for $25,000 when we already paid for it. Kanner: This is all the private property on First Avenue? Is it the same? Fosse: No, there's...what we're talking about right now is the stretch in front of the apartment building so two lots... Kanner: Right but is... Vanderhoefi It's on the west side of the... Kanner: No, I know where it is... Lehman: He knows where it is. Kanner: ...but I'm asking is this a case...this is new news about this easement and right-of-way. Is this the same case with other property along First Avenue? Atkins: There isn't any other sidewalk. This is the only piece. Fosse: Yeah. Lehman: Well there is the residence. Atkins: The other stuff is all subdivided, that I would suspect we'd be in there to take care of that. Lehman: Oh .... Vanderhoef: Other sidewalks came in with the subdivisions. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #3 Page//104 Atkins: They came in when they subdivided. Kanner: Right, so this is the only case? Vanderhoefi And the only right-of-way. Atkins: I think so. Cause the Thomas property was subdivided. I think it's a matter of affordability with those folks. Fosse: Yep. Atkins: Yep. Vanderhoefi Okay, let's look at 04. Atkins: Yeah, please. I want Rick to comment on something that...a reduction that I made that you need to be aware of. Lehman: Go ahead. Fosse: The biannual asphalt and chip seal as well as biannual concrete street maintenance. Those are two projects that have been funded over the years of road use tax. What you see in this year is about half the amount that's normally funded. And we can do that like for one year but if we do that over the long haul that's not a sustainable (can't hear) as far as keeping or streets in a condition we find acceptable. So I just want to point that out. Atkins: And those are reductions that I made in balancing the budget knowing that we were going to be a little short of road use tax money. If things look better and it appears that they do look a tad bit better, I would encourage you to try and replenish those. That's one of our more popular projects, as you know. And we do lots of streets. Pfab: Is...okay, so you're saying you reduced it and there's...with great reluctance. Is that what you're saying? Atkins: I did. I did, yeah. Pfab: Okay and you're saying that there is a slim possibility that this thing may be a little better... Atkins: I think our road use tax balance in 04 is going to look a little better than we thought. The reductions that I made here, Irvin, are more severe. And then the results are that we have a little extra money in the road... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #3 Page #105 Pfab: Which is the best way to go? Not to put it in and if the money comes in add it later. Can you do that? Atkins: I don't know ifthere's...either one is right. As I told Rick, he needed to express his opinion to you on the fact that...sure we can get by for a couple years but it will catch up with us. Pfab: No, I'm not interested in loosing the maintenance. Atkins: Okay. Pfab: But the funding is what I'm concerned with. Davidson: Next week... Atkins: By 04...by the end of...by mid next year, the budget we're working on will have a better handle on road use tax. And thereby we could...if you want to make that a priority we could restore that. Pfab: Okay but is that taking us out of cycle? Atkins: No, we're okay on the planning. Pfab: Okay. Atkins: It's just the size of the project that I think you're concemed...Correct Rick. And we normally try to do like about a million dollars every two years. This would allow Rick to do about halfa million dollars every two years. Pfab: But so...but there's a possibility we may be able to do the million. Okay so which is it better, to save try for the million and put it in and... Atkins: If there's consensus... Vanderhoefi Well add it later. Atkins: ...from you, I'd like to have some idea that that's a project that you'd like to see restored if it looks good. Pfab: I would be... Vanderhoef: Well I would like to revue all the... Atkins: It's going to happen all together anyway. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #3 Page #106 Vanderhoef: ...road use and see what's sitting there because we may have pieces... Atkins: This is this whole idea of look at the whole plan, then you can go back and do it. Fosse: In response... Vanderhoef: Well if the money comes back we'll Atkins: That's right. Vanderhoef: ...then let's look at all the projects that we've got going, what's going to come up a little shore, what' s...those kinds of things. Atkins: Okay. Fosse: In response to your question, from a time perspective, I'd rather have that money added later than taken away because I might find myself with a situation where I've made obligations to neighborhoods that I can't fulfill. Vanderhoefi Right. Fosse: Then start out with a larger budget and scale it back. Pfab: Okay so this...the way it's done here is your preference if there's... Fosse: That's correct. Pfab: That's fine. That's what I was looking for. What was the pros and what were the cons? Vanderhoef: I have an engineering question for Rick. Atkins: A deliberate uh-oh. Pfab: Yeah, deep dodo. Vanderhoef: We talked about it a few years ago and we have an annual amount of...usually it's 40 and it looks like maybe we're down to 20 in 04. Are we even becoming close to keeping our brick streets maintained with this annual allocation? Atkins: Yeah, go get em Rick. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #3 Page #107 Fosse: We have not done a lot with that over the years that the...The brickwork that we've done in recent years has been in the pedestrian mall and we found that to be very expensive. We've not gone out on the streets like Bowery and (can't hear) and remove (can't hear). We've not figured out a way to tackle that in an economical fashion. Atkins: I think you need to point out its handwork. I mean, it's virtually handwork that had to be done. That's how they were built to begin with. Vanderhoef: Well, what I'm talking about is a policy and an expectation of folk that live along those streets, and some like em some don't like the bricks. But they're getting worse in my opinion, when I drive down em. And they are certainly more expensive to maintain. And maybe this is something Council needs to have a discussion with a few facts and figures from Engineering about where we really are on all of those streets. And whether we can afford to continue that have those streets with brick. Champion: I know (can't hear) Lehman: Well, I'm not throwing bricks at this one. Fosse: One of the difficult things there is that our focus will be to go in and get some...take care of some of the worst dips and humps. And then a year after that's complete your perspective changes and what's acceptable, that level or that standard, changes. And we want to get is smoothed yet. Atkins; The brick streets folks are truly love hate. There are people that hate them because they are so noisy. Champion: Very noisy. Atkins: And then there are others who feel very strongly that it adds to the character of their neighborhood and they want them... Pfab: Well I think... Aktins: They want a smooth riding surface, which is in itself is difficult to do with bricks. Bud had one...Bud, you know, God bless Bud but we were...we used to fill in the holes. Well I don't let him do that anymore. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #3 Page #108 Schmadeke: Can't hardly patch them anyway because the bricks are worn and out of alignment and there's no place to stop...straight line to stop. It's all... Vanderhoef: So you're saying that if we keep brick streets and they're not going to take the bottom out of your car... Schmadeke: You almost have to look at them a block at a time... Vanderhoefi ...at some point in time... Schadeke: and redo the whole block. Vanderhoefi ...and redo the whole thing. Atkins: Yeah. Vanderhoefi At what kind of expense per block? Pfab: That's the (can't understand) Champion: We haven't had to do it yet. Lehman: We're probably not going to find out cause it's going to be so much we can't afford it. Vanderhoefi Well that's...that's my point. So do we need to have this on a future work list that... Champion: I think you wait til the street gets so bad it has to be redone and then you deal with it. Kanner: But I think the point that Dee's bring up makes sense. To look at it as a policy issue. Atkins: Yeah. Kanner: (can't hear) Connie...I think we need to look at this as a policy issue like Dee is talking about. Champion: (can't hear) Kanner: There is a...somewhat of an expectation that we're going to be fixing these but we're...the reality is we're not and we should clarify that. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. //3 Page//109 Champion: The difference is we have allocated a certain amount of money for maintenance and repair. We have allocated no money for replacement. I think it's pretty clear. Kanner: Well that's why...I think why we should talk about that to see where the majority stands and have some more information on what it might cost and so forth. To see if want to...and weigh the benefits, the esthetic benefits perhaps versus the other costs. I think it would be worthwhile to have a future work session on this. Pfab: I absolutely hate to drive on em but I sure wouldn't want them to go away. Davidson: I would point out that I don't think we've ever had a request for traffic calming on a brick street. There are advantages. Fosse: Our policy in...at least in the last 15 years...in the mid 80's we established a policy, Council did, ofno more loss ofbrick streets. We don't overlay any more brick streets ad we've been adhering to that. Now the next policy action was to go in and use this money, in the early years of this program, to take out the unseenly concrete patches and asphalt patches and replace those with bricks. That's pretty well done. Now what we're beginning to focus on is ride. And that's one that I really haven't figured out how to solve yet. Champion: I don't know if (can't understand). Atkins: Well, you know, we even looked at options, for example, of... Pfab: Pumping concrete. Pumping concrete under. Atkins: You mean like mud jacking? And push it up. Pfab: (can't hear) Atkins: We looked at an option of the asphalt overlay and quite frankly neighbors...there was enough...Then we also thought about actually just doing a strip of asphalt down the middle and keep the curb or the parking area brick to maintain some character around it. I mean there's some things we can do but they're...it's just unseeingly expensive to do it. Vanderhoef: It's a bottomless pit of money. Atkins: It's a bottomless pit. Yeah, it is. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #3 Page #110 Champion: Well but, you know, is it a bottomless pit of money as long as there is (can't understand). I don't think so. I mean, I think, when they start to dysfunction then you do have a bottomless pit of money. But right now we just have a... Lehman: Rough road. Champion: A rough road. Pfab: A rough road ahead of us. Champion: People who want that brick street... Atkins: Well there are neighbors that...it is traffic calming. Champion: It is. Atkins: I mean it's not unlike Gilbert Street beyond, you know, where it goes down to Kimball. That road that's in desperate need of...try to fix it. I mean the neighbors just had a cow when we were planning to fix...I got a letter from some guy just...your streets are just awful, terrible, and rotten particularly and I want him to go talk to the neighbors and tell them that. And then they can run him out of town. Davidson: I think the expectation is a little different on brick streets. Atkins: Yes, it is. Davidson: I can honestly say I don't get complaints about them. Atkins: At all. I don't get them either. I think folks would like them smoother, take the dips out a little. Champion: But they're not going to make (can't hear) asphalt. Atkins: They...it's not going to press the matter. No. Lehman: You know, I think the other thing is people expect a brick street to be rough. Atkins: To ride rough. Lehman: You drive down an asphalt street and if you're going like this, you're angry. A brick street... Champion: It's kind of soothing. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #3 Page #111 Lehman: Are we through with brick? O'Donnell: Let's move... Vanderhoefi Go on. Champion: I...do we have an anticipation that maybe we would be done here by 6:30? Atkins: I want to ask...pose something to you. Champion: Cause I plan on leaving then. Atkins: Okay. Oh. We have a meeting scheduled for the 24th. And it seems like we're about to wrap up projects for the 3rd. We've got 04, 05 and 06 we could do on the 24th. I also scheduled that that would be an open session. That's for you to raise issue. We can talk about the things that you have up here. We can fin..if you want to conclude, now would be a good time to conclude rather than start another year. And then we...on the 24th it is available to you. Champion: I mean I know I just...my brain is not going to absorb a whole lot more. Atkins: Okay. Champion: I think four hour sessions are more than I can handle. Atkins: Okay. Lehman: I really think... O'Donnell: No more than anybody can, Connie. Lehman: ...we need to look at...I really think that... Champion: I agree. Lehman: ...we need to do some... Atkins: Well maybe each of you need to go back and just simply go through here and spend a little more time...I mean, critically deciding what's acceptable to you and what is not. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #3 Page #112 Champion: The one thing I would like to ask if other people want it is a breakdown of that Waterworks Park. Atkins: We'll take care of it. Champion: Okay. I don't know if anybody else wants it. Lehman: No, I think that's really... Atkins: Those are easy to summarize. Lehman: ...we made very, very, very emphatic point when this water plant came up because of the incredible expense in having to purchase all of that ground. That only that portion that was attributable to the production of water would be charged to the rate usage. Champion: (can't hear) Atkins: I never saw...well... Lehman: But that' s...and pretty much what Council said. O'Donnell: I don't remember that, Ernie. Lehman: You weren't on Council then. Vanderhoef: And we definitely took the public art out of it. Lehman: I didn't either. Atkins: Yes you did. Vanderhoefi Yes we did. Lehman: But I do think that anything that has to do with parks and whatever has got to be done out of...not out of water. Atkins: I think I was trying to talk you out of that one and didn't get very far with that one. Vanderhoef: Some of us were very new at that. Atkins: Okay so here...we understand it is 24th, what time? 1:30 is it? What time is the 24th meeting? Pfab: 24th? 1:30 to 5:00. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002. #3 Page #113 Atkins: Okay, 1:30 we'll do capital projects 04, 05, and 06. Summarize those; you can make whatever adjustments you want. And the rest of that meeting is available to you, unless something comes up along the way, that you can open it up for general discussion. Couple of you have, you know, have stopped by and asked me some general questions and I would encourage you to put those on the table if you want to spend some time on those. Other than that I'm ready to say...yes, sir. Lehman: And in the meantime, Steve, figure out how you're going to save us all 10% on the budget. Atkins: Yeah, okay. Kanner: I wanted to second...I thought I heard Connie's concern about runway seven extension. Atkins: Raising that issue? Okay. I'll get that back for you. With that, thanks folks. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City budget work session of January 15, 2002.