HomeMy WebLinkAbout2010-09-20 TranscriptionSeptember 20, 2010 City Council Work Session Page 1
Council Present: Bailey, Champion, Dickens, Hayek, Mims, Wilburn, Wright
Staff Present: Helling, Fosse, Robertson, Lewis, Kopping, Goers, Karr, Davidson, Dilkes
Others Present: Higgins, UISG
Planning and Zoning Items:
b) CONSIDER A MOTION SETTING A PUBLIC HEARING FOR OCTOBER 11
ON AN ORDINANCE AMENDING TITLE 14, CHAPTER 5, ARTICLE J,
FLOODPLAIN MANAGEMENT STANDARDS TO REGULATE THE 100 AND
500 YEAR FLOODPLAIN AND ASSOCIATED CHANGES TO 14-9F FLOOD
PLAIN MANAGEMENT DEFINITIONS, 14-4B,2 VARIANCES AND 14-8B-5
FLOOD PLAIN DEVELOPMENT PERMIT.
d) CONSIDER A RESOLUTION APPROVING THE EXTRATERRITORIAL
PRELIMINARY AND FINAL PLAT OF MEADOWLARK HILL 2ND
SUBDIVISION, JOHNSON COUNTY, IOWA. (SUB10-00009/SUB10-00010)
e) CONSIDER A RESOLUTION AUTHORIZING THE CITY TO FILE AN
APPLICATION FOR AN IOWA SMART PLANNING LOCAL
COMPREHENSIVE PLANNING GRANT TO CONDUCT A COMPREHENSIVE
PLAN UPDATE.
Hayek/ Items P&Z...items.
Davidson/ Good evening, Mr. Mayor and Members of the City Council. Uh, we have items b, d,
and e on your agenda this evening. Planning and Zoning items, item b) is setting a
hearing on the City's floodplain management standards, and uh...and uh, obviously
we're just setting a hearing tomorrow night. Once we get to this item we'll have
extensive discussion, and I'm sure a Julie Talman, the City's floodplain management
specialist will want to give you a review of what's proposed, but we'll just be setting the
hearing tomorrow, uh, evening. Item d) then...is a...request for a preliminary and final
plat, a request by John...Harold John Dane Jr. and Allegra G. Dane, uh, to divide a
property into two lots at, uh, 4082 Dane Road SE and this is the, uh, location of their, uh,
family farm. The size of the parcel is 36.32 acres. This is the second subdivision of
Meadowlark Hill Subdivision, uh, otherwise we would not have this, uh, action before
you, uh, this evening because it would just be a lot split with their...which they're
entitled to do, uh, without a subdivision, but uh, the property has already been split, and
so you only get one of those and so even though this is just two lots, uh, it is treated as a
subdivision. Uh, couple of things that are not typical regarding this subdivision and the
subdivisions you usually have in front of you, uh, this is a county subdivision. It's not in
the city. It's zoned in the, uh, county, and for the time being, uh, the applicant does not
wish to have it annexed. Uh, because of the fringe area agreement and the stipulation that
the subdivision of land within two miles of the city, uh, has to be approved by both the
City and the County, the idea being that eventually it's going to be in the city. Uh,
there...by virtue of that, you have the, uh, right to approve this subdivision, and in fact,
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the applicant has to get approval from both the City and the County. Generally if the City
approves it then generally the County will, uh, as well. Mentioned that it had been
previously, uh, subdivided...uh, this is the location of the property. The white area that
you see in the middle there...let me grab the mouse here...um...is the George Dane
residence, John's brother, and that's their house, uh, right there. Um...in terms of the
Comprehensive Plan, uh, obviously this is not under the jurisdiction of our
Comprehensive Plan right now, but once it is, uh, it will be, uh, considered a transition
zone down into the, uh, flatter area that's the former Williams' farm, down in this area,
which the Comprehensive Plan calls for industrial development down in that area. Um,
we consider this a transition zone area that will likely have either commercial intensive or
commercial office available, once it is annexed, uh, into Iowa City. Prior to that time, uh,
and I guess we'll get into the Fringe Area Agreement here right now. According to the
Fringe Area Agreement, prior to annexation it is considered appropriate for County Ag or
County Residential, which is what it's currently, uh, currently zoned. Um...we have
indicated to the applicant that both now and in the future we would give favorable, uh,
favorable consideration to having this property annexed. It is within our growth area
boundary. Obviously we've built Mormon Trek Boulevard and extended, uh, sewer and
water to the, uh, adjacent area here, the Eagle View Drive area here, uh, so it's all ready
to go, uh, and that we would consider annexation favorably, but they, uh, are simply not
quite ready to be annexed at this time. We are, however, recommending, um, approval
only with the condition that it not be developed, uh, until it is annexed into the city, and
until that time there will be no access, uh, from Mormon Trek Boulevard to any of the
frontage of the property. I guess I haven't actually showed you...okay, there's the...uh,
you can see the two lots here, um; you'll recall this is the George Dane property. This
property here is lot 1 and includes all...these buildings are the Dane farm buildings, and
then outlot A, and it's...it's been deemed an outlot because, uh, it is not...we've
determined it's not suitable for development until it's annexed, so it'll be an outlot for
future development after annexation. Uh, this lot, outlot A, is not quite 10 acres and
outlot, uh, excuse me, lot 1, it's just, uh, over 26 acres. Those are the two lots that would
be created. Um...because of the restriction of access, um...on outlot A that it not be
given access to Mormon Trek Boulevard until after annexation, uh, we are requiring as a
condition of approval that there be an access easement, uh, and you can see they've
allowed for it right here, uh, from lot 1 so that the agricultural uses on outlot A will have
access through lot 1 and Dane Road, the portion of Dane Road which remains which is
right there. So, uh, staff recommendation then, uh, is to recommend approval, subject to
the conditions that there would be, uh, no, uh...um, no access to Mormon Trek Boulevard
and that there be an access easement between lot 1 and outlot A. Any questions?
Wilburn/ So there's, uh, that's a change from the initial, uh, recommendation? Did I look at the
right one (mumbled) recommended deferral before?
Davidson/ Uh.. .
Bailey/ The staff report, yeah, says...
Hayek/ ...P&Z.
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Bailey/ That the deficiencies had to be addressed, but it (several talking)
Wilburn/ That's right, yeah.
Davidson/ The applicants agree to the conditions. Any other questions about what's proposed
here with Meadowlark Subdivision?
Hayek/ So this subdivision, once it's complete, would...would permit the sale of (both talking)
Davidson/ ...the applicant (mumbled) that's why the desire to, um...have it...I mean, we kind of
wondered why they would want to plat it... if they weren't ready to annex it, and they
said it was due to a transaction that they hoped to make. Any other questions? The final
item then, item e)...and Marian, I don't have any graphics for this. You can turn the
lights up if you'd like. Um...oh, I'm sorry! I had a couple pictures I didn't know I had!
(laughter) You can tell I don't prepare these (laughter) here's, uh, here's the front as
you're looking up...you're looking up a long outlot A. Outlot A's to the right there. You
can see it's an agricultural use. You can see the Mormon Trek Boulevard that we built,
uh, fairly recently and the 8-foot sidewalk that's along there. Just over the hill then is the
Honda dealership as we're looking to the...that direction would be west I believe, and
there's the Dane residence, John and Ally's place. Uh, this is a view from the
intersection of their driveway with Dane Road, so I'm not quite sure why Bob put that
picture in, but (laughter) it's there for you to look at so...that's everything. Um...item e)
then is...let me get the wording right. Uh, in authorizing resolution allowing us to file an
application for an Iowa Smart Planning Local Comprehensive Planning grant to conduct
a comprehensive plan. The Rebuild Iowa office in conduc...in conjunction with all of
the Smart planning legislation that went through last legislative session has
made...they've established a fund with some CDBG funds of a million dollars for
communities and counties that want to do comprehensive plans according to the state's
Smart growth principles, and the State's Smart growth principles aren't even completed
yet... finally they have a recommendation that they're currently reviewing with their
committee that they formed. But we know what the principles are, and in fact our
comprehensive plan is grounded in Smart growth principles, even before the State had
this initiative. Um, our original comprehensive plan goes back to 1997. We are currently
completing the eighth district plan, eight often, and our intention has been to go back and
update the main kind of body of the comp plan anyway once we had the district plans
completed. The last two district plans are ones that are fairly straightforward. I think one
is northwest and north-central. I can't remember, but they're two that aren't going to
take nearly the time that the ones we've done so far have; we deliberately kept them last,
and so our thought has been since they're making these funds available that if you'd like
we can go after some...to basically do something we were going to do anyway. Um...the
eligible services and activities include the things that we would do anyway in terms of
updating the comprehensive plan, uh, as part of a community-wide initiative. It's really
important that we do that and not have it be some top-down type planning exercise.
Um...the maximum...we are eligible because we are one of the 85 counties that was part
of the Presidential...presidentially declared disaster areas. Those 85 counties are eligible.
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We are one of them. Um, we're required to apply the Smart growth planning principles.
They don't tell us what they have to be, only that we consider them, uh, when we're
developing it. Um, we go after $50,000 which has to be matched with $50,000, but up to
half of it can be in kind, and we'd basically use the staff time for up to $25,000. The
remaining $25,000, uh, we do in the Urban Planning Division have consultant services
that are budgeted every year and we could use the funds from that. So basically it doesn't
require any extra money on...doesn't require you to find any extra money in the budget,
if you'd like to go ahead and do this, and this authorizing resolution is a requirement of
the application, which would be due September 30 and we have to, uh, use up the grant
funds within two years. So we'd have to complete it within two years. Any questions?
Okay, thank you.
Hayek/ Thanks, Jeff. Okay, next item is Council appointments. Dale, did you want to talk about
that School District...I can or you can, and do we want to do it under this bullet?
Council Appointments:
Helling/ Yeah, probably (mumbled).
Hayek/ It's item 20.
Helling/ (mumbled) I thought...did I miss that?
Champion/ The Roosevelt...
Hayek/ This is the Roosevelt repurposing...
Helling/ Yeah, I had...I thought I had put a short memo in the packet. (several talking) Okay.
(several talking) Basically what it is is...they want to, uh, form a group to look at the
Roosevelt School site, um, certainly we've heard in the past (mumbled) I think Dr.
Plugge's philosophy was (mumbled) with uh...district offices (mumbled), um, and
certainly that's one of the things they're looking at, but they're also looking just to...to
get a group of community representatives together to kind of look and see if there are
other more unique, uh, opportunities, and that those could be partnering with other
governmental agencies, um, you know, recreational facilities, uh, and really you know
they don't have a laundry list. What they're looking for is sort of people to get their
creative juices flowing and...and see if there's any other unique kinds of uses that the
Board might want to (mumbled). Um, beyond that, I think it's pretty wide open, and uh,
they asked for a Council Member and to...represent the City.
Bailey/ No staff? (several talking) Okay.
Helling/ Not a staff member. And I don't know... at one time (mumbled) going to be involved
with that?
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Wilburn/ The, uh... School District's cabinet with the Superintendent had decided that, uh, the
new Assistant Superintendent would be a more appropriate, uh (mumbled)
Helling/ Yeah, I think at one point some of the (mumbled) group. At that time they (mumbled)
Hayek/ I talked to, uh, Mike Cooper about this and...and wanted to express that this would be
sort of a short stint, uh, ashort-lived, uh, an efficient group that would meet four, five
times, uh, over a few months, come up with some recommendations.
Helling/ (mumbled) again, and I don't know...apparently (mumbled) communication. There's
some indication that the group might have (mumbled) but I don't know if... and the group
itself may have something to say about whether that happens (mumbled).
Hayek/ Well, is someone from Council interested in going uh, and serving on this?
Dickens/ I would do it.
Hayek/ Okay.
Champion/ Good for you!
Mims/ Thank you.
Wright/ We would let you!
Bailey/ Be our guest!
Hayek/ I think it makes sense to meet in advance with Dale and you know, meet with
Neighborhood Services and, I mean, there's some excellent perspective in staff that I
think would help inform you as you go into the process.
Helling/ Yeah, I think as...ongoing during the process (mumbled) staff to assist.
Hayek/ Thanks, Terry. Okay, I don't see any other Council appointments...in the packet, so why
don't we move on to agenda items.
Agenda Items:
ITEM 7. AMENDING THE FY2011 OPERATING BUDGET.
Bailey/ I see Leigh here. Can we walk through item 7? (several talking) I see Leigh here. Can
we walk through item 7?
Lewis/ What you have before you is the first of two budget amendments. We typically amend,
uh, early in the fall and then in the spring. Um, and the majority of this amendment I
think, uh, is most easily digested if you turn to page 3 of my memo. On page 3, uh,
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there's a summary of the amendments, and they basically can be broken down into two
categories. The first of which represents the majority of the amendment and that is just
carrying forward (mumbled) uh, City Council has already authorized in the fiscal year
2010. These are projects -- $130 million in expenditures for capital projects and $23
million in flood recovery, uh, grant monies that are yet to be expended, and those are
already anticipated for expenditure in fiscal year 2011. So those are not necessarily new
expenditures. They're things that, uh, City Council's already approved, uh...and then the
supplemental budget amendments would represent new appropriations within fiscal year
2011. The total amendment for expenditures is $191 million. New supplemental
appropriations within fiscal year 2011 are $26 million; however, what I would like to
stress with you at this time are the majority of these expenditures are programs and, uh,
bond refunding which have also come before Council and it's not necessarily a
discretionary amendment. It's something that we need to go forward with. Um, if you
look about one-third of...down the page there, at the start of supplemental, um, Univer-
City program, we're amending for $8.8 million in expenditures, um...that is
not...actually the size of the program. It's, uh...it is a representation of the accounting
requirements for that. Uh, that grant funding that we are receiving from the State for that
program is actually $1.25 million. Um, but we need to, uh, receipt-in the grant monies,
uh, and then we have loans from the local area institutions, lending institutions, and then
we will also need to (mumbled) the sale of the property to the new homeowners, and so,
um, that is where we come up with the $8.8 million in expenditures. Down at the very
bottom, the very last item...this is a sewer revenue bond refunding. In April of 2010
(mumbled) uh, approved additional proceedings for the issuance of the 2010 refunding,
and uh, bond covenants within the two bond issues that were refunded, uh, specified that
the principle cannot be paid out until July 1 of 2010, and so that's why we are amending
for that within the current fiscal year. And that really is a summary of it. The one other
point that Kevin, uh, did ask me to make is that within the carry-over amendments, and
those requests for (mumbled) that was already authorized and carried over into 2011, um,
$585,000 is considered discretionary on the part of City Council, uh, these items have
been approved by the City Manager's office, and this does represent our recommendation
(mumbled) recommendation is what should be approved. (mumbled)
Helling/ Most of what we look for in carry-overs are those items that...have been budgeted in the
past (mumbled) not been paid for in a typical year and so we carry that money over, not
all of it, but the lion's share is that. And we look very carefully for that (mumbled). The
other thing is that this is not some sort of a plot we have to try to create confusion among
yourselves and nobody can understand. These are converted, as I understand it, to the
forms that have to be submitted to the State, and as we told you before, when we do the
budget we go through the budget in a way that we can all understand and produce our
budget document, but when we transfer those numbers to the State, their categories and
the way that they require us to report, it really...it mixes funds and it's not very clear.
It's not a document we would want (mumbled).
Hayek/ Any other questions (noise on mic)
Champion/ I understood every word. (laughter)
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Mims/ One of those cases where you trust staffl
Hayek/ Thanks, Leigh, for that...
Mims/ Thank you.
Bailey/ Thank you.
ITEM 4. CONSIDER ADOPTION OF THE CONSENT CALENDAR AS
PRESENTED OR AMENDED.
g) Correspondence.
4. Beth Sowder: Student Liaison model
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Hayek/ ...thorough explanation. Other agenda items? I...I noticed in correspondence there's a
request for some input from I think Fort Collins on our student liaison program (several
talking) and uh, so we should figure out a way to respond to that. Elliott, you just want to
handle it for us and (laughter)
Bailey/ We're not sending you to Colorado though! (laughter) Sorry!
Hayek/ I...I can follow up with...Dale, I can follow up with you on that, I mean, figure
out...some means of giving them some...a response.
Helling/ We can help prepare something, but I think it needs Council feedback (mumbled)
Hayek/ Yeah.
7. Annie Meltzer: Moped Parking
Wright/ (mumbled) correspondence about the moped parking...which I've heard a fair amount
about, uh, from various folks (mumbled) myself and at one point this was something
JCCOG... getting some feedback... something that JCCOG was going to be dealing with,
and I haven't heard anything about that in over a year.
Bailey/ I remember talking about it at that level, but...I don't remember what was decided.
Davidson/ Yeah, they did do a study, and I know one of the things that came out of it was
that... Chris was going to look at establishing, trying to find some areas that were kind of
underused for anything else, you know, like corners in parking facilities and that, and see
if we could establish some, uh, moped and scooter parking areas, so that the bike racks
weren't...I think there were a couple of bike racks, including the one at Iowa and Clinton
where the, I believe the correspondence pertained to, that uh, that were pretty full, so
um...I can ask John...John and Chris to give me an update. How about that?
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Wright/ Yeah, I'd appreciate that. It is kind of a problem. At one point I know my bike was
hemmed in completely by mopeds on a bike rack!
Helling/ I can tell you that what...what, at least in my conversations with Chris, he's targeting
next fall to have the alternative parking for mopeds in place, which we want to do before
we would prohibit that parking in the bike racks. Otherwise we're going to find
(mumbled)
Wright/ Is somebody going to follow up with...with (mumbled)
Helling/ There's a...there's a challenge to find space, without giving up other parking
(mumbled) and certainly the use of mopeds (mumbled). We don't want to discourage
that.
Champion/ We used to allow, maybe they still do, free motorcycle parking in the ramps to keep
them off the streets, but the problem is the young kids riding those mopeds don't want to
drive them to the ramp, because it's not close enough to where they want to go. That's
the realistic part of it.
Wright/ Yeah, and it'll kill `em to walk so...let's put them in the ramps!
Champion/ Oh they're late...they gotta run! I can understand that! But maybe the University
could help us come up with a (several talking)
Helling/ I know I was walking over to, on campus today to a meeting. There was an area where,
about the size of a parking place and there were lines drawn in there and there were five
or six motorcycles (mumbled)
Champion/ And I know there are cities that have taken like two car parking places and divided
them into moped parking but they put a meter in there (noise on mic)
Bailey/ For each moped!
Hayek/ Other agenda items?
Champion/ But there is a possibility of using that one...loading zone I never see anybody parked
in. Get a lot of mopeds in there! (laughter)
Leal Age Exemptions-Split Venue/Entertainment Venues Agenda #101
Hayek/ Other agenda items? All right, hearing none why don't we move on, uh, to uh, legal age
exemptions, split venue, and entertainment venues. Eric Goers is here from the City
Attorney's office.
Goers/ Good evening everyone! Hopefully you all, uh, got my memo that I sent around kind of
with some things for you to mull over in advance for conversation this evening so that we
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had a better idea of, uh, what direction you would like to go in this entertainment (noise
on mic) ordinance, and whether you wish to continue to do it. As I mentioned in the
memo, uh, following the last work session discussion (mumbled) inferred that you were
looking at live music venues and (mumbled) with um, many of the live venue operators
here in town and so I want to make sure that it's clear in my memo. I...I attempted to
make it clear, but I want to just re-emphasize that that, uh, the requirements that were, uh,
listed in paragraph three that is all the things, um, all the requirements for entertainment
venue listed...there are things that they as a consensus agreed to. They thought they
could live by and that that would be good criteria to distinguish themselves (mumbled)
venue operators from I'll say sham operations (mumbled) just wants to under age kids in
(mumbled) put somebody's roommate (mumbled) guitar in the front room on...unamped,
no one's listening to him, you know, but now they can...you know, now they're a live
music venue and (mumbled) they're all in the back room listening to, you know, DJ and
the dance floor and, you know, so we obviously we wanted to avoid that. We didn't want
to gut the ordinance. So what I thought I might do, unless any of you have preliminary
questions, is just go through the things that I listed here and just kind of get a feel for
what direction you would like us to head in drafting this ordinance, if that's all right. Are
there any preliminary questions about process or anything?
Hayek/ The only question I would have is do...do we want to take up split venue before or after
the entertainment venue discussion?
Champion/ Let's do the entertainment venue, I mean the split, this one, the entertainment venue.
The other one I don't think requires a lot of discussion.
Hayek/ I think you're right.
Goers/ That was my last question on the memo was (several talking) or the other, anyway, we'll
wait for that it sounds like, if you'd like to do the other things first. All right, so the first
thing is what kind of entertainment do we wish to discuss? This is entertainment venue
we've, uh, been talking about. I assume the live music one acts as...is okay? (several
responding) How about live DJ's playing pre-recorded music? (several talking) Okay.
So I take it pre-recorded music without an actively involved DJ, that would be a `no'
also. What about d) the comedy act, poetry, movie screenings, stuff like that?
Bailey/ Yeah.
Wright/ (mumbled)
Hayek/ I don't know how I feel about movies. I...1 think...from my perspective, the issue is live
performance.
Champion/ Right!
Hayek/ And that could include poetry slams and things like that.
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Bailey/ Comedy.
Hayek/ It could include comedy.
Champion/ But live performances.
Bailey/ Uh-huh.
Wright/ (mumbled) public performance rights for movies we're not likely to see those in any of
the venues anyway, but...
Hayek/ Just take that right out.
Goers/ Okay, so no to movie screenings, yes to any live comedy acts (both talking)
Hayek/ ...big smile on his face! (laughter)
Wilburn/ I'll comment a little later on.
Goers/ Okay!
Wilburn/ I'm sorry, I'm just, uh, again, um, nothing against, uh, the one venue that has...come
forward, but when we legislate, we legislate for all, and so the different, uh, opportunities
for, um, something other than the intent of the Council Members that are interested in the
flexibility here, uh (mumbled) so...
Champion/ So...go on!
Wilburn/ Well, I mean, how are you going to define, uh, the comedy act, the duration of time,
um...
Champion/ Live music only!
Wilburn/ ...are these professional folks, you know, and then how...how does this relate to the
concerns that, uh, have come up with...venues in the past. So...and I don't have an
answer to all of it but...
Bailey/ Well, some of it will be answered in the other criteria (several talking)
Goers/ Right, and that... see, the notion was that we would be going with, you know, all, you
know, all the things that you folks approve, all have not, you know, this or this or this,
because we wanted to avoid, you know, the bouncer telling aknock-knock joke on the
way in and calling it a comedy show, I mean, yeah. We...we thought of those things, and
the other thing is, when I met with the group too is, you know, there were discussions
about, you know, saturation of the market, and you know what happens, you know,
maybe there'd be other clubs that would open up to foster this kind of thing, and in the
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end they were all agreeable with the notion that, hey, this is really about, um, I think
(mumbled) rebranding Iowa City for a place that fosters this kind of, um, live music
venue and if there are other clubs that want to do this and they're legitimate and they
want to bring in these kinds of live acts then so be it. That's fine. So, I say that kind of
in answer to your question about are we legislating for one, you know, for The Mill, for
example, who originally brought this to your attention. I...I think the intent is no, that
we're really not. We're trying to, um, you know, open it up to this genre of
entertainment, um, in establishments particularly who have shown that they got a good
handle on controlling, um, underage consumption of alcohol. For what it's worth, I was
just checking through the PAULA reports last year, or for last year, and the
establishments with whom I met have a grand total of zero for PAULAs last year, the
entire (mumbled) last year. Now that's not to say that, you know, they will continue to
be perfect, uh, if we give them this kind of exception. I'm sure they won't, um, you
know, they've had some PAULAs this year, uh, but you know, they've done better than
most.
Wilburn/ Yeah, and the (mumbled) my question wasn't necessarily legislating for one, or it's
this...the rules would be the rules across the board, and what are the controls to, uh,
again, um...continue to promote, uh, illegal activity by taking advantage of a loophole or
a definition.
Goers/ Yeah, no. That's, I mean, I have no illusions that this may be a... a learning process for
us and that we may need to tweak it as we go back, um, but...um, one of the things that
you'll see we're proposing, um...you know, when it comes to the PAULA rates and so
forth is that we've found that the PAULA rates have really plummeted, um, I know
there's been a lot of discussion about that in the 21 discussion recently, have really
plummeted in such that, um, you know we can be pretty stringent and um, if they run into
trouble, that is if they start having a bunch of PAULAs, because word gets out that if
you're 19 or 20 that's where you want to get your beer because they've got an exception
and you can get in and that's the new place for underage kids to drink then...then they'll
lose it, cause they'll get those PAULAs and, you know, that'll be the end of it. For them,
for that establishment.
Wilburn/ And I didn't mean to slow us. We can move on (several talking)
Dilkes/ Let me make a suggestion. You may want to just put a question mark again...next to
some of these things that may be dependent on whether you're comfortable with the
whole picture, um, you know, it may be that the rest of the stuff here gets you
comfortable with comedy acts and poetry readings. It may be that it doesn't.
Hayek/ Yeah, I mean, a more conservative approach would be to start with music, see how it
goes, and then consider these other genres.
Bailey/ I'd like to keep it open to comedy acts and poetry readings. I'd be willing to move them
if other criteria weren't met, for people who are (mumbled)
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Dilkes/ Yeah. I mean, come back to them at the (several talking)
Goers/ All right. Well, then, let's move on to number two, which is how late do you wish
underage patrons to be allowed to stay? For what it's worth, the consensus from these
present operators was midnight would be (mumbled) something that would be acceptable
to all of you.
Mims/ What were they saying is the typical show ending time?
Goers/ They said around 11:00 or 11:30, uh, but then there's um, some merchandising period
where you go and buy the t-shirt from the band and you know that kind of thing, meet the
band, meet and greet, that kind of thing, and then you know that... about a half hour was
what they said that they would need to typically clear those folks out. So they thought
midnight would be good; they'd be happy with that.
Wright/ (mumbled) (several talking)
Champion/ Oh I don't know!
Dickens/ (mumbled)
Wilburn/ Just a piece of information, uh, some of the law enforcement officers, um, that had
approached me about, um, how things have been going is that, um, there was debate back
and forth about whether the number of house parties, um, are the same or not, but...this
time allows them to respond to the existing house parties that existed...you know, last
year, the year before, um, and some were saying, you know, that there had been
decreased number, um, reflecting some of the information that had been out there that,
but um...but just again that since that allowed them to not have to concentrate their effort
in the downtown area, it allowed them to respond more quickly to the complaints that did
come up in the neighborhood. So I'm just putting that out there. (several talking)
Goers/ All right. Then moving on to the criteria that was, um, approved by the group that I met
with, um, you may recall that originally they were looking for 18-year-olds to get in. I
think that they were now comfortable with 19-year-olds (mumbled)
Bailey/ I wouldn't have a problem with 18, but I suspect other people would, I mean, 18-year-
olds staying out till midnight doesn't seem silly to me, but.. .
Mims/ I don't want to start letting 18-year-olds in where we have alcohol. We haven't done it in
the past. I don't want to start it now.
Bailey/ (mumbled)
Wright/ There's law and there's law. I'm not in 18.
Bailey/ Okay.
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Goers/ 18? Or 19, sorry!
Champion/ Well letting them into a bar, we haven't in the past let them into a bar (several
talking)
Mims/ Right.
Bailey/ (mumbled) people.
Champion/ Of course (several talking)
Goers/ 19. Moving on! Uh, dedicated performance stage of at least 8 foot by 6 foot in
dimension.
Wright/ Is dedicated the same as permanent?
Champion/ Uh-huh.
Goers/ Yes.
Wright/ If it's permanent I don't have any problem with it, but it's something that (several
talking)
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Goers/ I can make it so that it's permanent... if that's your wish. I mean, I can be explicit about
it.
Bailey/ Permanent dedicated.
Wright/ Yeah, permanent dedicated.
Dilkes/ So dedicated means you can't put tables on top of it.
Bailey/ And permanent means it's a structure, not a...risers.
Dilkes/ Right. Permanent and dedicated.
Champion/ That's a good point.
Goers/ All right. Anything else on that topic? All right, let's move on. Professional and
permanently installed sound and lighting set-up. Now, this is something that came from
the group and I was thankful for their input, as I never would have come up with this on
my own. Uh, but they had indicated and actually gave me the name of an individual who,
um, does a lot of these set-ups, and I spoke with that person. He said he'd be happy to
kind of layout some criteria that would kind of separate, uh, again, kind of the karaoke
machine from the real, you know, sound and light set-ups, uh, so that we could
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distinguish whether the establishment's, you know, serious about hosting live music, or
again, if it's just a mic and P.A. uh, kind of thing, and um, I'm hopeful that, uh, he could
write it in such a way that, uh, ales-informed staff person, like myself, although it
wouldn't be me, could go out and confirm the presence of, uh, the system there so that
especially upon the application of the venue to be entertairunent exception and we could
just send our staff person out, look at a checklist and say okay, you've got these many
monitors, this much lighting, you know, whatever the case may be. Great, and then of
course they would be subject to reinspection down the road if we chose that (mumbled)
necessary. Any questions or comments about that requirement, or input about it
(mumbled)
Dickens/ I just have one question going back to the last one, the dedicated and permanent.
Could, now can they use that space when they're not having live performances to put
tables on, use as serving, because I know space is at a premium in some of these places,
like during the day, you know, if they're restaurant.
Champion/ I don't see...no. When I think of places that have permanent stages in town, I don't
see them using those at any other time.
Dickens/ (several talking) I just want to be clear that they can't use that space as...
Wright/ Purpose of having it dedicated.
Dickens/ Okay. That was just...
Goers/ I can make that clear in the definition, as well. Any comments about sound or lighting?
Is that something that you folks see as agreeable? All right, requirements that venues put
on shows on at least 150 calendar days. Now, the discussion of shows was an education
for me. I...there can be several shows a night, uh, in several of these venues, but in the
end we decided that really the best way to handle this was just say, look, on these...on
this many days you need to have at least one show, instead of...cause the other approach
is to say put on so many shows, you know, 250 shows in the course of a year, then we
just...looked like it might get kind of complicated (several talking) planning a show,
enforcing that and... and it seems like this would be the better way of addressing that.
Champion/ Does that seem like a lot?
Goers/ Well, it was this group that said that they would be okay, uh, with that many, that they put
on that many.
Wright/ Sounds like a lot, but if they think it's a reasonable number.
Mims/ They've got to be a true venue if they're doing that many, I mean, we're talking three
nights a week basically (several talking)
Goers/ Yeah.
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Hayek/ I don't have a problem (several talking)
Bailey/ I think it's a good....good standard for sure.
Champion/ I think it is too, but I mean, I'm...I think it's a little high when you think about how
many times the town has emptied out, and I'm wondering if they're just trying to protect
their own venue. I mean, I just....just seems like a lot of shows. A lot of days!
Wright/ Well, it's basically three days a week during the school year is what we're talking about.
(several talking) Excuse me, three days a week during the academic, or the calendar
year. There we go, not the academic (several talking)
Champion/ Right! That's a lot!
Wright/ But they do that during the summer.
Hayek/ Five or six days a week is common for... for (several talking)
Bailey/ I mean, if they're a true entertainment venue that, I mean, that seems like a good
standard. Ambitious, but...
Hayek/ I think this is an important part of the criteria, uh, to the extent we are...we are trying to
create a narrow bandwidth (several talking) pardon the pun but...but uh, this is one...this
is one of the criteria that I think will prove most effective.
Bailey/ Well, and there's going to be quite an investment in the infrastructure to do a stage and
the lighting and a sound system. It would make sense that you would focus on being an
entertainment venue. I mean, that's what we're trying to...
Wright/ We want professionally managed operations.
Mims/ And the thing is is we've talked before, I mean, if we get something in place that we like
and is working and people are doing well at it... and somebody wants to come back and
say, you know, can we lower the standard, but we've had really good success, then I
think that's something we consider. I'd rather start with a higher standard, increase our
chance that this is going to be a successful, uh, approach, and then maybe lower the
standard later, if there's good rationale for it.
Bailey/ Yeah, I agree.
Goers/ And I suspect that that won't happen, and the reason I say that is that, you know, the
venues in town have already signed off on it, and they said yeah, we can do that. It
wasn't something that we glossed over, I mean, they gave some thought to it and had an
opportunity (mumbled) and they... it was a long meeting, and they said yeah, we can do
that. All right, and the shows would be at least 90 minutes in length. That's again to
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kind of avoid someone singing happy birthday (mumbled) that kind of thing. Um, that
okay with all of you? (several responding) Next one is at least 50% of door receipts on
show days needs to go to the performing artists. You may recall that this is one of the
things that, uh, Andre Perry had suggested in his letter and um, it seems like that
was...all the, again, all the operators were okay with that. They thought that that would
be a good way to, again, you know, separate themselves as legitimate operators, and to
avoid the, you know, the bartender's roommate from playing acoustic guitar out front
because we need to pay bartender's roommate 50% of door proceeds, which would be
some disincentive, probably not enough by itself, but uh, combined with everything else
we're hopeful that it would, again, keep it to within those venues. That sound okay?
(several responding) All right. Um, venues must provide an annual or however
frequently you would like to see it, of course, report of all shows and dates, on a City-
standardized form. That is we would provide a standardized form so that they would
have to sign off, look, I had these shows on these dates...this is the money that went out
and to the performing artists, and just kind of to have a check that they need to write it
down. They can't kind of smooze it or kind of say, yeah, I met all the standards. They
would need to write it down and kind of document it.
Dickens/ ...start quarterly.
Mims/ Yes, that's my thought too (several talking) More frequently to start.
Bailey/ Uh-huh, it's easier for everybody.
Dickens/ Once it's in there, can start spreading it out once we get a track record. (several
responding)
Goers/ Okay. Uh, venues must have at least one salaried employee responsible for booking
entertainment acts. Um...again, this is something that all the bars...have this now,
someone who's usually a manager or a booking agent. This is their job. This is what
they do. Now that's not to say that they don't also tend bar when needed, help out in
other, um, places in the bar if needed, but this is kind of their primary role and...and this
is what they do. Uh, they're a professional (mumbled). It sounds like having a salary
employee would separate them from a lot of the other, you know, saying that your
bartender is the, that person, that bartender's probably not salaried. So that was a good
way of separating that (mumbled). All right, um, venues must carry annual subscriptions
to at least one professional development or industry tracking services, such as
PollstarPro. Uh, again, this is just another indication that they're actually paying
attention who is out there and...
Bailey/ Do you have more information about that? Did that seem to make sense to you...when
you had this discussion, because...
Goers/ I did not understand it, until it was explained to me.
Bailey/ Okay. So...
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Goers/ And in meeting with the groups, um, the venues had different degrees of, uh, I mean,
some had many, some had you know one. The consensus was certainly they could all be
one. Just by, uh, way of reference, my memory of PollstarPro is that if you subscribed
online it was something like $350 a year. You could get a magazine for like $30 a year.
Am I getting that right? It's inexpensive. It's not particularly cost prohibitive. Um, and
if bars and venues are serious about you know being a live venue, then this...this would
not be considered a (mumbled) I think that, I shouldn't say...I think that they were, if I
remember right, that they were all doing it already.
Bailey/ Okay. But this isn't indicative of... of some level of seriousness to be in a music venue.
It's how you get information about what's happening out (both talking)
Goers/ Yeah, it...oh, I'm sorry. Kind of some background, as I understand it. It's...it's kind of
what bands are out there, um, you know, what bands are touring, where they are in the
month of October, so you'd go on there and say, oh, well this band's kind of in the
Midwest. Maybe I can (both talking) manager and so forth.
Bailey/ Makes sense!
Goers/ Is that okay? (several responding) All right, venues must have a PAULA ratio over the
trailing 12 months of no greater than .5, based on at least 10 bar checks. Now this is
obviously one of those topics where we need to discuss a little more. You'll see that,
when you get, um, to, uh, paragraph 4, 4.c., particularly I have a little more detailed
discussion of the PAULA rates. Um, at the time we were meeting with these venues, uh,
they all had a rate of .5, uh, or lower. Um...now, it was shortly into...well, it wasn't this
far into the 21 period as we are now. Uh, and so we didn't have quite as much of that to
work with. Uh, the long and short is, again, as we've discussed and as you all know, the
PAULA rates have really, uh, plummeted, uh, since the under-21 ordinance was passed
and so forth. So the numbers that we were working with and coming up with is .5,
um...were only based on either one or two, I can't recall, but also would have included,
um, January through May of, uh, of that year, of this year, and uh, when 21 was not in
effect, and that skews those numbers. Um, so I guess I'm presenting it here because they
had...they had said, yeah, I think we can abide by .5, uh, they were all at .5 or under.
They're comfortable doing that. You may...maybe we can just defer discussion of this
one until we get to paragraph 4 when I have a little more (mumbled)
Dickens/ As far as trailing, do you mean rolling?
Goers/ Yes, rolling.
Dickens/ Okay.
Goers/ Because much like liquor licenses, these exception applications would not come in on
January 1 sc
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Dickens/ Go monthly.
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Goers/ Yeah. Yeah, we would presumably use the, um, the 12 months that ended with the month
prior to the application, because that's just how they're reported, you know, through the
end of August, the end of, you know, end of August is what we're working with now for
example. Just skip on past that for now (several responding) get back to that later. Okay.
Um, venues must mark all patrons over 21 with a wristband; must mark all underage
patrons with a wristband or permanent marker on the hand. Again, this is just to, not only
assist the...the, um, establishment itself with differentiating the of-age and under-age
folks, but also to make it easier for the police, I mean, just as my experience as a
prosecutor with prosecuting these PAULA tickets and under-21 violations and so forth, a
lot of times the officers will say, well, I saw someone who was holding a cup and I saw a
big black X on their hand, and I knew that was someone I'd have to go and speak with.
Um, so it just makes it easier for, um, them. Um, everyone really involved. That sound
okay?
Mims/ It does. It still does not address, and this ordinance won't, and I don't know how we ever
get to it is the bars that are mismarking the kids when they come in the door.
Goers/ Right, this will not help that. Yeah, and I wish we'd get to the point where, you know,
we have the resources and...and maybe we will, I'm not sure, where, you know, if we
heard complaints of that at, you know, from a bar, then we could send someone in
underage and...see how they're marked!
Mims/ I can give you a suggestion!
Goers/ All right (laughter) we'll talk later! All right, let's move on. Uh, the last one's kind of an
obvious one -venues must provide capable staff to monitor patrons at all shows. I throw
it in because it was something that they had mentioned that they...they understood, they
agreed, and...and appreciated that. It would really be their obligation to make sure that
there weren't problems, um, there during these...during these events. Uh, so moving on
to 4, the ones that, um, after further consideration our office thought that you might be,
uh, interested in considering. Um, the first is that, and I'm embarrassed that I didn't think
to bring it up with, uh, the group, uh, which was that, well, you know, shall we allow
under-age patrons only on show days or on any day the venue is open. Um, obviously if
the argument is to open up entertainment for those under legal age, just the entertainment,
then it doesn't make much sense to let them in on days where there is no entertainment.
Um, so...in, obviously if we were to do this, we would need to get a list of shows ahead
of time, uh, at least a week. I'm told that that won't be a problem. They usually book a
month or two ahead.
Mims/ I would say only show days, I mean (several talking) that's the intent is...for the
entertainment.
Bailey/ Uh-huh.
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Goers/ All right. Um, should we require a ratio of staff, uh, to patrons?
Champion/ No.
Bailey/ Eleanor said that was difficult.
Goers/ It would be difficult. Yeah, there's no bones about it.
Champion /If they want to keep the PAULA rate down they'll have to have a certain amount of
staff. I just...I can't tell people how many people they have to have working.
Goers/ Okay, so no to that one. Any special training, like TIPS or anything for their servers?
Bailey/ Yes!
Wright/ Yes.
Goers/ Okay. Um...
Hayek/ Would that not be required anyway?
Champion/ No.
Goers/ It's not required right now, TIPS training.
Hayek/ That's right, that's right.
Goers/ I mean, many of the bars...that's one of the things that's on that, uh, checklist that goes to
the Police Department about whether...how many TIP-certified servers you have
and... and all that, but it's not required right now.
Wilburn/ There was an understanding, and I don't remember if it was (mumbled) maybe it was at
the, uh, (mumbled) if they participated they got a waiver with the first (both talking)
Goers/ A get of jail free card.
Champion/ They discontinued that.
Goers/ Yeah. All right. Cis ability to quickly revoke the exception upon problematic behavior,
such as sales to underage persons. Before we get to the individual things...obviously the
notion is that we want to protect against, you know, a big influx of underage folks
(mumbling) to drink and so we want to be able to respond quickly if...if that ends up
being the case, the PAULA rate goes up, we've got underage sales, we've got other
problems going on, we want to be able to jump in and revoke the entertainment
exception, um, and obviously if they get back in the graces they can get it back, but um,
we want to be able to act quickly. Let me just ask generally, is that sound like a way you
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would like to go about it, that is, um, you know, having the Chief of Police with an
appeal to the City Manager, that's under C, uh, IV, does that sound like a decent way of
going about this? (several responding) All right. So let's go through some of the things,
like sales to underage persons, uh, would that be...and I should just say let's just start
with, you know, if they have a sale to an underage person would that be kind of thing that
should be an automatic disqualifier or do you (mumbled) police, based on other criteria
or...
Champion/ I have (several talking)
Mims/ A single sale?
Wright/ A single underage sale.
Champion/ It could be a new bartender. It could be...
Mims/ I wouldn't say a single on should disqualify them.
Champion/ I'd leave it up to the Chief of Police.
Wright/ I think we need to set a tight standard. If it's not one, maybe it could be two, but I don't
want to just leave it up to somebody's discretion.
Dilkes/ Yeah, I think you need to set it.
Dickens/ I would go with two, because there's always that one chance that you slip.
Champion/ Right, and even good bars slip once in a while.
Dickens/ But I don't want it any more than that, because then you get in a pattern.
Mims/ Are you saying with the sales to underage that this would be done like with a sting?
Champion/ Yes.
Goers/ It could be. It wouldn't have to be, I mean, if...if an officer happens to observe one, but
it seems like we never get any...charges that way. We're just never that lucky.
Mims/ Yeah.
Goers/ Um... (both talking) with a sting.
Mims/ Okay. I'd give `em two, no more. I think that's reasonable.
Bailey/ I'd go with the three strikes you're out, but (laughter) but two is the...
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Hayek/ I can live with two.
Goers/ Two?
Mims/ (mumbled) three, something like that, yeah.
Goers/ Um, PAULA ratios at the end of any given month climbing over a certain rate, and that's
where we come back to this discussion. Um, you know, as you know we previously had
kind of used 1.00 as a... as a bright line for when we recall have a problem at a bar and
that had kind of separated only six or seven bars from the other 110 or so and so that
seemed like it was a pretty, uh, generous standard though, um, you know, since that time
rates have plummeted as a result of the under-21 ordinance, um, from the same period in
2009 (mumbled) three months from .585 to .054 in a reduction of more than 90%. So,
um, you know, I...I'm curious how you'd like to address that, um...you know, much like
is one underage sale enough, is...is, you know, one PAULA enough or two PAULAs or
you know the ratio over a certain figure. It would be my advice to...that even though in
this three day, or I'm sorry, three month period it's been .054, um, you know, city wide,
if you make it... it's up to you of course, but consider making it a little more generous
than that, or have a minimum number of PAULA, uh, or bar checks in order for it to kick
in so that if you, you know, I mean as I use the example if you had 15 clean bar checks
and then, uh, just found one person under age...
Champion/ Right.
Goers/ ...um, then they would be over, you know, .05, um...and if you had set your standard
there, then that next month they would then lose their exception.
Mims/ In some (several talking) discussions we've kind of thrown around the .25 rate...I don't
know if that's...too high given how much they've plummeted (laughter).
Hayek/ The range I'm thinking of is .25 to .5, uh, but I'm mindful of, you know, the possibility
that you have only two checks and one hit, which equals .5, and that...
Mims/ Well, I think (both talking)
Hayek/ ...also a resource allocation and ability to...to dedicate the resources to do these checks
(several talking) mindful of.
Wright/ Yeah. 2.25?
Goers/ Yeah, the...the checks have gone up a lot. In the three month period, and I'm going off
memory but in the three month period last year, June through August, I think we did 256
bar checks or something, and this year we did 410. I think the reality is, they're just
easier to do. I mean, they go in and (several talking) folks who look like they're under 21
and so they (several talking) check and they're in and out of there a little quicker and so
ironically, you know, even though there's been a lot of discussion about, you know, party
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patrols and you know stepping up a fourth one out there, we've had more bar checks than
we did last year. Um...so I'm hopeful, I guess is my point, I'm...absolutely agree that
we want to have probably a minimum number of checks before it kicks in, but I'm
hopeful that we'll continue to get a high number of checks so that...that won't be too
great of an issue.
Bailey/ Well, and the environment in which this may exist may change too, and what...what
creates...a good ordinance regardless of the (mumbled) I guess. I mean, with the
referendum.
Hayek/ I was reading something...
Bailey/ Well, I mean, there might be needs and...and bar checks might be more challenging.
Goers/ Well sure, but if the referendum were to succeed and 21 be repealed, this would all be
moot because, you know...
Bailey/ Well, it would, but there would be still...this, are we going to then repeal this? I mean,
this would still be on the books and we would still want to provide and encourage this
kind of business versus...
Goers/ Sure, but the encouragement that you are providing through this ordinance, should you
approve it, would be to allow 19 and 20-year-olds into their establishments until
midnight.
Bailey/ Right, I understand...I understand that the capacity would change. The capacity of doing
bar checks would change, right?
Goers/ Oh, I see what you're saying. Yes.
Bailey/ I mean, the environment in which our officers have to operate would change.
Goers/ Presumably (both talking)
Bailey/ ...and so the capacity, yeah.
Goers/ Right, and there would be more...
Bailey/ Right.
Goers/ ...folks who look under age in that (both talking)
Bailey/ And so...what...what maintains a manageable bar check capacity, given the resources
we have available to us? Regardless of whether they're, I mean, now they're ostensibly a
neighborhoods checking, I mean...do you see what I'm saying?
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Mims/ No, I guess I'm missing the point because if...if 21 gets overturned, this...this whole
ordinance is moot. Because...
Hayek/ Because 19 and 20-year-olds (several talking)
Bailey/ Of course, would we not still want to encourage these kinds of, I mean, do we repeal
this...
Dilkes/ Yes, you would repeal it because it would be absolutely meaningless.
Bailey/ Okay.
Dilkes/ There would be no need for it. Why would somebody go through all these steps to let 19
and 21-year-old (both talking)
Bailey/ ...business model I guess is what I'm assuming.
Dilkes/ (several talking) they can already let 19 and 20-year-olds in (both talking)
Bailey/ But I mean it's a very...it's a very fluid environment. If I were a business owner within
such an environment where it changes from year to year potentially, I might continue to
pursue this business model, but I mean I guess...I guess I'm just looking at it from a
different point of view.
Mims/ Yeah, but they wouldn't be subject to any of this because the 19 and 20-year-olds are
in...would be legal to be in there anyways.
Bailey/ Okay.
Dilkes/ I think that's right, yeah.
Bailey/ And so we're spending a lot of time on something that potentially we would overturn in
two months...and that would be moot.
Champion/ Oh we can keep...
Dilkes/ It can be on the books, but it's going to be moot if the referendum passes. Completely.
Bailey/ Okay.
Dilkes/ Well, unless somebody wants to jump through all these hoops to let people in that they
can let in anyway (laughter and several talking)
Bailey/ Well, I mean, if you've already...well, okay.
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Goers/ I mean, you could decide to offer some other incentives to them. I don't know what they
would be but...
Bailey/ Right.
Goers/ ...if you wanted to continue to foster these kind of businesses, perhaps there'd be another
way of doing it. I'm not sure.
Champion/ I'm not sure...
Goers/ It wouldn't... it wouldn't be by allowing 19 and 20-year-olds in (several talking)
Bailey/ Well...
Wright/ We don't have any incentives in this without that 19 and 20-year-old admission.
Goers/ That's right.
Bailey/ (mumbled)
Wright/ It just doesn't make any sense.
Mims/ Yeah, I mean I think...
Dilkes/ I mean, you could go to letting 18-year-olds in, I suppose. You can keep it on the books
and say well if you do all this you can let 18-year-olds in, but the way it's crafted now it's
completely moot if the referendum passes.
Bailey/ We11...I like the business model, I guess is what I'm saying, and how could we incent
this sort of approach with...with somebody who would be willing to do this, in
potentially an environment that this would be a moot point in two months, I guess.
Dilkes/ That is a completely different question than legislating on what they have to do to let 19
and 20-year-olds in. For instance, if the City wants to incent a business by giving it a
grant to do an entertainment venue or anything like that, that's a completely different
question.
Hayek/ We're talking...if we proceed with this and pass it, we're talking about several weeks
time before we know the answer.
Bailey/ Sure!
Hayek/ And either there will be the incentive because the ordinance is upheld, uh, lots of
incentive, or we...or it'll become academic because it is overturned and we go back to
the...the status quo.
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Dilkes/ Yes.
Bailey/ Okay. Whatever.
Mims/ I think it's really important that we have this discussion now and not wait, because I think
it's important for people to, in the community, to know that we are serious as we
indicated, you know, when we were first talking about the 21-ordinance, that we are
interested in the entertainment venues and trying to...
Bailey/ That's kind of my point is...this, I guess I...
Mims/ Yeah, but I think if we wait (both talking)
Bailey/ Right, right, no that is my point (both talking) compelling business model, something
that we've wanted to have in this community, and I've...I've really been appreciative of
people who...I mean, I've really been (both talking)
Mims/ ...support the 21.
Bailey/ ...of all of you who aren't pro-getting 19-year-olds into these types of establishments,
I've really been quite happy that we're pursuing this, because I think the business model
is what we want to see and so how do we create something that can go forward,
regardless (several talking)
Wright/ ...another time, cause right now we're focused on whether or not the (both talking)
Bailey/ ...that was my question is what the PAULA rate should be.
Dilkes/ But the...but the PAULA rate...will be irrelevant, come the referendum...
Bailey/ But, capacity-wise, I mean we should...okay, never mind. I guess I just cannot
communicate how I'm looking at this.
Goers/ In deciding what an appropriate PAULA rate should be, you should assume that the
referendum is defeated and 21 remains on the books.
Bailey/ Right.
Mims/ That's a good way to put it, yeah. I say something like .25 with a minimum of ten bar
checks.
Champion/ That seems pretty low! That would just be one PAULA, wouldn't it?
Goers/ Depending on how many bar checks. Uh, that would be one out of four. If you do four
bar checks then that's one, but then...it would, if you had at least ten you would need at
least three PAULAs.
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Dilkes/ You know what you may have to do is, it's so difficult to predict where this is going to
go, um...where these numbers are going to eventually fall out. You may have to set it
based on the experience you've had to date, which was these types of entertainment
venues are .5, and you may have to then quickly (coughing) change that by ordinance
after you've got some experience with it, cause it's just very difficult to...
Hayek/ If our range is .25 to .5, do you (several talking) where we start?
Champion/ I think .5.
Wright/ You said .5 or .25?
Bailey/ .5.
Champion/ .5.
Dickens/ .5.
Bailey/ But I would do a certain number of bar checks as well.
Champion /I just think it's difficult to...predict, I mean, it's...there are going to be minors
getting drinks in there. There's no doubt about it. I mean, these establishments have a
long history of not providing, not letting minors drink in their bars. Or venues or
whatever you want to call `em. But .25 seems really low.
Dilkes/ We could, I mean, you could do a .5 and say we're going to look at this ratio again on
January 1St, you know, we want a report from staff on, to where those numbers are falling
out, and at that point you'll determine whether you're going to change that rate or not.
Goers/ And that might make sense also from a perspective if... if we're continuing to look at a
12-month trailing thing, then maybe we'd have more and more months that are included
in the post you know, post-June 1St, post-21 (several talking) uh, where you would
presume those numbers are (mumbled)
Mims/ I can live with that! To start with the higher rate, to know we're going to look at it again,
relatively soon.
Goers/ That's a .50 with at least ten bar checks. All right.
Hayek/ I mean, the higher the...the ratio cap, the...the less concern I have about minimum
number of checks.
Goers/ Right.
Hayek/ It's more slack.
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Goers/ Right, that's...yeah, that's right. Okay. Um...and then the last part was just that, how we
address if they run into problems, then we talked about that briefly out of order. Um, last
one is, uh, 4.D., any limitations related to capacity. I think capacity was an issue, um,
one or more of you raised at our last work session on this topic. Um, I'll kind of give you
our thoughts on this. Um...if we...we talked about this with the venue operators briefly,
and they didn't really see, um, much use for it. Um, obviously from their kind of, uh,
personal perspective it might make sense to limit capacity to something one more than
whatever the biggest venue there is (laughter) and they said, you know, of course, you
know, they didn't want to pose anything like that, again, they seemed to be okay with the
notion that this is really to foster this group, whether there are five of these venues or ten
or 25 of these venues, um, and although it's been often times the case that many of the
larger venues have been the ones who have struggled keeping their PAULA rate down, in
the end we're, you know, we've got a requirement for the PAULA rate, so I don't think
that for that reason we would need to say you can have a capacity of no greater than, you
know, this...people...because in theory you might have a venue come in that, you know,
has 1,500 people and does a fantastic job of, you know, controlling underage drinking
and puts on great shows, and I would think we' d want that.
Hayek/ Yeah, I mean, it's pretty hard to arbitrarily establish a number when you know what the
existing venues are, and we know their capacities. (laughter) ...arrive at X number
automatically excludes, you know (several talking) but includes others, um...so...
Mims/ I agree.
Hayek/ ...I'd be open to...not including a capacity cap and seeing how this works (several
responding)
Wright/ I agree.
Bailey/ I would.
Hayek/ What do you think, Connie?
Champion/ I...I just want to think about that for a minute. My problem with large capacity areas
doing, um, becoming a...
Goers/ Entertainment venue?
Champion/ Right! Thank you. Um...I...it just seems, I mean...this is an entertainment venue.
Now, if you have a building that holds, for instance, what does the Field House hold, or
the Summit? What do they hold?
Goers/ (several talking) I think 430 for the Field House, or 420, something like that. I think
Summit's larger. I think it's...
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Wright/ Yeah, Summit's quite a bit larger.
Bailey/ (several talking)
Champion/ Yeah, I don't have my (several talking)
Goers/ Looks like the Summit is...
Bailey/ 736.
Goers/ 736.
Bailey/ It's hard to come up with a...
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Champion/ I know, I guess I think maybe the PAULA rate is probably the best place to put that,
because I can see these larger establishments making themselves a musical venue. I
don't want to discourage that! But the reason for them to do that is because they'll want
minors in their bars, and when they charge $25 just to get in...they can afford to do this.
I mean, I just...does that sound really bad? I mean I (several talking)
Dickens/ I've seen a change...I was walking by the Sports Column on my way home last Friday
and they had a live band for the first time (both talking)
Champion/ Right, and...don't tell me about it! I had to close my doors and nobody would walk
down the street!
Dickens/ But, you know, are they changing their model a little bit to, I mean, I don't know.
Champion/ If they're changing their...well, never mind, I don't want to (several talking)
Wright/ ...with the PAULA rate...
Bailey/ I think it's hard to arrive at a number (several talking)
Wright/ With the PAULA rate tied to...being able to continue to be a live music venue, I don't
think the capacity is such a big issue.
Champion/ Might be right. I'm willing to concede that.
Goers/ I don't think that would be a problem if these big bars, I mean, became live venues,
because I mean that's what we're aiming for in the (several talking)
Champion/ Right, right! I just wonder about the motives. And I just...
Bailey/ We can't legislate (both talking)
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Champion/ Right, fine. Fine!
Wright/ We can just hope that karma plays out!
Goers/ But we were, I mean, it's a fair question though, I mean, we were really trying to find
some requirements that would...you know, would separate those who have that motive,
that is the motive of just wanting underage drinkers in there and they want their cover and
they (mumbled). It's not really about the live band or whatever, um, and they're just
looking for a way to skirt the law and so I mean...we've crafted these with an eye on
trying to separate the legitimate music venues from those who are just trying to put on a
sham to get around it. I'm sure it's not perfect. I'm...I'm sure that we will quickly learn
that if we pass this the things we missed, uh, and we'll need to come back, and...and that
brings me to the point of...of asking, is there any other kind of criteria that you folks
have been thinking about, or that you think would be valuable to...to add, uh, to the list?
Dickens/ We might know some after this has been in effect for a little while.
Goers/ Right. I...I agree fully. I suspect that we will...
Champion/ ...change the rules midstream!
Goers/ ...quickly find that we were not as creative as some bar owners are.
Hayek/ Is there anything from your conversation with the...the venue representatives that was
left on the table and not included that we ought to really settle here?
Goers/ No, these were...I listed everything that they agreed on.
Bailey/ One thing that...I don't know...it probably is once again, it's like a ratio. It's difficult.
The one thing that somebody said about a bar that has fewer problems with PAULAs is
that they...it was something about how they did the serve, how they served. And I
can't...I can't remember the distinction, but um...
Champion/ Bars who serve alcohol, rather than having the customers serve themselves, have a
lower PAULA rate.
Bailey/ Yeah, it was something like that, but...but I don't, I mean, once again I think it's like a
staff ratio. It's very difficult to check and enforce, but...
Goers/ Let me get back to your question, you had asked whether there was anything left on the
table. There were a couple things that Andre Perry originally had submitted in his letter
that by the time we met, the venue operators had met and they agreed to voluntarily
withdraw, and one of those things was like spending at least $1,500 toward the
professional development of their programming staff, um, and at least 80% of the
entertainment events must feature, uh, original material, that is songs that they wrote, that
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kind of thing. In the end they withdrew that. And so I want to make sure I'm answering
your questions fully.
Dickens/ As far as incentives, we've talked about what we could do. Right now there's a lot of
the, uh, playbills that are stuck everywhere. I don't know if there would be a way to
provide City space for them to put up the live venue posters and something...
Champion/ We have it!
Dickens/ I know it, but they end up everywhere. I'm just trying to think of a way that it would
be a little more...easier to (both talking)
Wright/ They're still going to end up everywhere.
Bailey/ I think so.
Dilkes/ Maybe we have to require that they be taken down...to get one of these (laughter)
Bailey/ That's a dis-incentive, isn't it? (laughter and several talking)
Dilkes/ After the show! (laughter)
Wright/ That one doesn't bother me too much!
Bailey/ ...a million staples!
Dickens/ I'm just looking at, you know, once we...if we get a few venues going that...to reward
these venues by having a place where people can see where all the live music is in one
place. Or several places around town.
Wright/ I can walk right up front to the telephone pole in front of the house and tell him!
(laughter)
Dickens/ That's why I'm looking for more of a centralized (laughter) approach.
Champion/ Well, that's something you can bring up with the Downtown Association, which has
those (several talking)
Goers/ Any other additional criteria you want to discuss...
Hayek/ Did we determine the trailing period or the...
Goers/ We were left...12 months, but we can certainly talk about that some more if you'd like.
Oh, yeah, I guess we didn't fully discuss it under 4.C. I apologize. Um...tell me your
thoughts. What would you like to do?
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Hayek/ I don't know what I want to do.
Bailey/ 12 months. Why wouldn't...
Dickens/ ...rolls to the next month. The 12 months.
Goers/ If you want to stay with that, and then revisit it in January, then you know, we'll do the
12 months thinking that .5 is pretty generous, and then as more and more of post-21
months kick in, and the other ones fall off then...
Wright/ The one thing that I was wondering about, would be somebody who wants to open a
whole new venue that doesn't have a history. Where...where do they fit in here?
Goers/ That's the next one...discussion point. Now, as you know, right now, I mean, this is the
only parallel we were able to find. Right now we have, um, if you want, um, a restaurant
exception, that is an over 50% exception, you know, if you're the Pizza Huts of the
world, yes, you got a liquor license, but the huge majority of your, you know, sales are a
non-alcoholic sales, then all you need to do is submit a business plan, um, suggesting that
they're going to make more than 50%, um, and then six months later they need to come
forward with those numbers to prove it. In this circumstance I'm not sure I would
recommend that, because, um, I think the temptation would be too great to get this...this
exception, which I'm sure would be rather profitable for a bar with, who might want to
abuse it, with the notion that they would just do it for six months and then sell it to
someone else and have someone else do it for six months and have it continually flipping
over.. .
Champion/ ...their brother, their mother...
Goers/ Sure, yeah.
Wright/ But then you at least have the establishment (several talking) a while.
Goers/ Well, but you're right, although we have taken the view in the past that if new ownership
and new management comes into an establishment we won't hold their history against
them. Um, now nothing says that we have to stay with that, and we can certainly
reconsider that, if you thought that would be appropriate.
Hayek/ So in lieu of that, what do you think we should do with a new business?
Goers/ Well...
Champion/ The same as we do with new, other new establishments. I mean, like...if a bar's in
danger of losing their liquor license cause they've gone to the limit - is it three, um, times
you can sell, or four times you can sell alcohol to a... in a sting. The next time the liquor
license is gone forever for that address. So then they tend to sell the bar while it's still
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saleable. Now that new owner can possibly be held responsible for...that person's
negligence.
Dickens/ 30, 60 days, something fairly short?
Hayek/ Are you suggesting though that...that it, that the new establishment get a track record, a
PAULA track record, before we allow this music exception to kick in.
Dilkes/ I...I think that's the safest way to do it, is that you have to...you have to have a track
record before you get this, although the downside to that is you don't encourage people to
go into it.
Champion/ And they're not going to put money into it.
Bailey/ Yeah.
Dilkes/ And I think the difference between this and what we have currently in terms of an
exception is that this requires an investment of...
Bailey/ More investment.
Dilkes/ ...of, you know, staff and (coughing) stage and all those other things. So, it...we
wouldn't just be looking at a business plan. We would be looking at physical
improvements that would meet this criteria. So I think it's a little less concerning than
just giving us a business plan and you get this exception.
Champion/ (mumbled) only be in there during a performance too (both talking)
Dilkes/ Right, and I think that helps a lot. That helps a lot, because...so...so Ithink those are
your options.
Hayek/ Okay. Say we did this, say we allowed them to open without, um, being open for a
period of time before the exception is...is available to them, explain how the rolling
aspect of this works, um...if at any...like say you get the exception, okay, and you're
operating as a music venue under this...under this exception, do we...is every month
basically a new calculation of the preceding 12, or is this only once a year?
Goers/ Oh, I think that they...no, we look at the last 12 months. Now it might be you're only in
existence for one month or two months or three months, but we would have a rate for
those three months for the entirety of your time being open, and if at the end of any one
of those months, if your rate is over .5 and you have at least ten bar checks then you just
lost your exception. I don't know if that responds to your question.
Champion/ Oh, yeah.
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Mims/ What about letting them open with this exception, assuming that they meet all the other
criteria, give them a 60-day window and then the PAULA rates kick in, but maybe
there's some extra criteria in there in terms of if... if we see certain things within those
first 60 days. I mean, if...if it just becomes outrageously obvious in the first 60 days that
this is a sham deal, somebody's just really coming in to make a lot of money.
Goers/ I don't know that you need to wait for, uh, any period of time before the PAULA rate
kicks in, if you leave in the ten bar check minimum thing. That's kind of a safety, uh,
safeguard.
Mims/ Okay.
Goers/ So that you know that...
Bailey/ So if you had two months and had .5...
Mims/ You'd be done.
Bailey/ ...you're done!
Goers/ Assuming you had more than ten bar checks.
Bailey/ Right, right!
Goers/ Or at least ten bar checks.
Wright/ Yeah.
Bailey /That seems (several talking)
Dilkes/ Well, I mean, that's going to be a resource issue though for dedicating those...that
number of bar checks to this new establishment in a 60-day period. That's a lot of...
Goers/ Well, but we wouldn't necessarily need the ten bar checks because if we only have seven,
let's say, then they couldn't be disqualified for that reason. Um...so they'd still be all
right.
Dilkes/ But...but what I'm saying is is if we let them open and we say you have to have a
PAULA rate, a satisfactory PAULA rate within two months, we wouldn't want to allow
them to continue with the...with the entertainment venue, unless we were sure that they
were.. .
Goers/ Yeah, I see your point.
Dilkes/ ...not...so I think...I think if you're going to do that, let them open and then check it.
It's going to have to be longer than 60 days.
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Champion/ Yeah.
Dilkes/ I think 60 days is going to be not enough time to know...what their PAULA...what their
PAULA experience is.
Bailey/ Is six months too long?
Mims/ I think so.
Bailey/ And three months is not that long...much longer than two.
Dilkes/ That's what I...I'm not sure...
Dickens/ But then you'd have your first quarterly report.
Bailey/ Right.
Wright/ Well, if we have three months, we wanted ten checks...you know, we're talking one a
week.
Mims/ Yeah.
Bailey/ Yeah.
Champion/ That's a lot!
Wright/ Is it?
Champion/ (several talking)
Bailey/ They already have to have three, you know, if you're going for 150, you're going to have
to have at least three shows...in those times, so one a week, checking one of those three.
Makes sense! But I don't...
Dilkes/ You know, I don't know the Police Department isn't here, and I...I... (several
responding) I have some concern I guess just as we're sitting here, um, committing their
resources to dealing with the PAULA rate on a new establishment in a two month period
of time, given the other things (several talking)
Wright/ Why don't we get some feedback from them on what might be reasonable? I think
that.. .
Champion/ Why don't we say after ten bar checks, the PAULA rate has to be below .5.
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Hayek/ Why don't we...we've decided on the .5 cap. Why don't we let staff work internally to
come up with (several talking)
Dilkes/ Okay. So you want to allow a new business, if they make these physical improvements,
to open as an entertainment venue and the only question for us is over what period of
time and how many checks do they need to demonstrate that they have a satisfactory
PAULA history. (several talking)
Wright/ ..substantial investment, and all of the stuff that we've already talked about (several
talking) take it seriously.
Hayek/ Okay. (several talking)
Goers/ All right, well, then let's return to the first page, kind of 1.D., where we were talking
about comedy acts versus poetry readings and movie screenings and so forth, to see if
you, given our discussion, wanted to revisit that or lend any additional clarity to (both
talking)
Bailey/ I agree with the live. Comedy acts, poetry readings, live musical acts.
Champion/ Really listen to 90 minutes of poetry reading?
Bailey/ We're the City of Literature. Of course they can!
Champion/ Oh, of course! (several talking)
Bailey/ Poetry slam.
Champion/ Yeah.
Goers/ Have to meet all this other criteria, you know, I really don't think it'll be (mumbled).
That's live entertainment, so...it wouldn't have to be one individual necessarily. It could
be a series of people who are doing it.
Champion/ So then we'll...
Bailey/ It just won't be a night that you'll be attending, is what you're saying.
Champion/ That's right!
Bailey/ Okay (laughter)
Champion/ Will it be...will it, so then will it be if...since they have to have all these, uh, days of
shows, then is it going to be, um, Elliott and me hired at The Mill to do three nights of
shows, reading Mary Had a Little Lamb?
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Goers/ Well, here's the thing though, it's got to be you and Elliott for a total of 90 minutes
between you, on a permanently dedicated stage with professional sound, light, and you
get at least 50% of the door. So I mean, it's (several talking and laughing)
Champion/ Okay, great. I've relaxed.
Goers/ All right, so what I've got is no to the movie screening, cause that's not live, uh; but yes
to basically any other live entertainment, so to speak. I don't want to (mumbled) but that
(several talking)
Wright/ We don't want exotic dancing (several talking)
Goers/ Okay. Right. Uh, all right, so anything else that...to discuss, or is that...
Mims/ It's a great start!
Champion/ Yeah, this is a lot of work. Thank you.
Goers/ Hey, sure! Thank you.
Hayek/ Now...uh, before you go, your last question.
Goers/ Yes.
Hayek/ Split venue.
Goers/ Oh yes, sorry!
Champion/ That one's fine with me.
Hayek/ Why don't, I mean, this is on the agenda for tomorrow, but let's get a gut check and
answer any questions there are tonight about that.
Mims/ I would still have (several talking) couple different options. (several responding)
Hayek/ Yeah, it's...that option and the...the entertainment venue option are not mutually
exclusive.
Champion/ Uh-huh.
Bailey/ No, they're different business models.
Mims/ Uh-huh.
Wright/ And they both offer an alternative for somebody to be able to deliver live entertainment.
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Champion/ Yep!
Goers/ Okay.
Dilkes/ In terms of timing, so October 11th we'll have a, um, the ordinance on the agenda, that's
your next meeting, right?
Goers/ The entertainment venue (both talking)
Dilkes/ Yeah, entertainment venue ordinance, um...and then depending on how quickly you
want to move, you can... collapse it if you want to or.. .
Hayek/ Thanks to (several talking) thanks to the venues. I know you, uh, you were at the table,
as well.
Champion/ Appreciate it! It's a lot of work.
Bailey/ It's a nice example of how we can develop something that speaks to people who are
doing business in the community.. .
Goers/ It's been an encouraging part of my time, I mean, cause it's something that, you know,
think would be great if we could foster and so forth so...
Bailey/ I think so too.
Goers/ A lot of my days are spent with time that's are less encouraging and frustrating so
(laughter)
Mims/ Thank you (several talking)
Bailey/ Glad to give you that job satisfaction!
Information Packet Discussion:
Hayek/ Okay. Uh, I think we can get through the remainder of things quickly, unless people
think we need to take a quick break. (several responding) Let's just do it, okay. Info
packet discussion, first is September 9.
Mims/ Pretty blah.
Champion/ Uh-huh.
Wright/ There was nothing to it.
Bailey/ Yeah, quick review.
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Hayek/ September 16.
Page 38
Helling/ Just a couple of things that I want to call to your attention. One, I asked for a decision
on this IP4, the maintenance coverage for the Senior Center. Um... and uh, Linda had
laid out to me in the memo the reasons why...why she's asking for this full time person,
and it's partially triggered by the fact that cable has gone out and got their own. Uh, they
needed more than...than, you know, .19%, and their office is over there, and one thing
that I was not aware of, and I...I just didn't remember, but this would be restoring this
back to two full time positions, which the Senior Center had back in, eight, nine years
ago. And, some of the stats that Linda gave you indicated the increase in the number of
people using the Center, um, and (mumbled). I found it compelling and I recommend
that.. .
Champion/ Uh-huh.
Hayek/ Any questions about the recommendation?
Mims/ Looked fine.
Helling/ And then the other one was just the...the (mumbled) memorandum, IP8, from Jeff
Davidson. Uh, just updating you on the, we didn't get the I-Jobs money and how we
would treat this, if this is consistent with your...your thinking, um, it would be $1.9
million that we had agreed to use the CDBG money, and go back into that fund and we
can (mumbled) the CIP 2014 would include, uh, these projects and then we could maybe
talk about CIP. We can figure out if you want to (mumbled) do that. In the meantime,
we'll always be looking for any other options, as far as funding, federal or state funding.
So if that's consistent with your thinking, that's great.
Hayek/ If the 1.9, uh, million goes...is reallocated, as soon as we do that, or as soon as we
shipped it back, once it came, then that...we can't use that down the road, I mean, that's
(both talking) if something comes up where we come up with funding...
Helling/ Down the road that 1.9 million would probably be reallocated into the...but if there's
other funding in there and the opportunity's there, you could go back...the reason this
was in there is because this particular grant requires 50% match. Um, the next time, you
know, if we find some grant money some place that may not require a match or maybe
10% or something, so you may not need that. In fact, it's kind of rare that grants of this
size require 50%.
Hayek/ Let's keep our fingers crossed on the, uh, I-Jobs one stuff and hope that our waste water
treatment plant can get some additional funding.
Champion/ Right.
Hayek/ Marian, do you want to talk about KXIC under this?
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Karr/ Yes. Be great if we could go through...I try to do this about every six weeks, and we're up
to September 29tH, as far as the KXIC radio show. So if there's anyone who'd like to
volunteer for the dates that we've put on there. September 29tH through November 3rd
Hayek/ I can do October 27tH
Karr/ October 27tH is Matt.
Mims/ (several talking) No, that's all right! That's all right. Go ahead! I've got my calendar
with me. Go ahead!
Hayek/ That really is the only one that works for me.
Champion/ I'm doing the...
Karr/ I'm sorry?
Champion/ Oh, I'm doing the September.
Mims/ I'll take October 20tH
Karr/ October 20tH, Susan.
Dickens/ 13t". (several talking)
Karr/ Thank you.
Champion/ I can't make any promises.
Karr/ We're going"backwards but...we've got October 6tH and the...we've got November 3`d,
October 6t ,and September 29t", I believe.
Hayek/ The 29tH we might want... somebody not on Council to handle.
Wright/ Yeah, that's...
Karr/ Okay.
Hayek/ Getting to where we are with... (several talking)
Karr/ Okay.
Bailey/ Have you done one of these? Elliott?
Higgins/ Connie walked me through one, but I'd be (several talking). Sure! What days are
available?
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Bailey/ Do the 29`hl
Higgins/ 29`" it is!
Champion/ He's not camera shy!
Dickens/ Have to dress up for the radio! (laughter)
Higgins/ Be sure to shine my shoes!
Hayek/ Yeah!
Wright/ The nice thing is you can call in. You don't even have to go to the station!
Karr/ So we have October 6`h and November 3ra
Champion/ Well I cannot do October 6`". I can probably do November 3ra
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Karr/ How about if I put Connie down for November 3ra, and how bout we plug in...you want to
say staff tentatively for 10/6? (several responding) Thank you.
Champion/ If I happen to be around, I could do it. I'll let you know. I mean, I can't (both
talking) I can't make any promises.
Karr/ All right, that'd be great. Thanks!
Hayek/ Okay, anything else on that info packet?
Champion/ November 3ra is the day after the election. (laughter)
Mims/ That could be a fun one!
Champion/ Did I just volunteer to do that?
Bailey/ They'll probably want (several talking)
Wright/ I'll be out of town. (laughter)
Champion/ They'll probably want you!
Hayekl Yeah. You're just as entertaining, if not more so! Okay, and we can talk about that as
the 3ra approaches. Um, Council time.
Council Time:
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Champion/ Well, I do want to ask a question. And I should know this, but the Sports Column
was doing live entertainment on...
Dickens/ Friday night.
Champion/ ...Friday night.
Dickens/ The last two Friday nights.
Champion/ So loud, I mean, nobody would even walk down the streets. Now I don't know what
the...I thought you couldn't have music going beyond your sidewalk, I mean, they didn't
have...even the, you know, they've closed the...I mean, it was really, really loud.
Wright/ The windows were closed and it was still that bad?
Champion/ No, the windows were not closed. Now we decided not to harass them because, you
know, we know they're, you know, missing out on business, but what is the rule on that?
Do you happen to know, Dale?
Helling/ Yeah, really it's not supposed to project out into the street. They can't use the speaker
or anything...
Champion/ Oh my gosh, it was so loud!
Dickens/ The speakers are facing in. I actually went in and listened to them for a little while
(laughter)
Helling/ Um, we'll have to review that, but I...I...
Champion/ If it was after normal closing times, it probably wouldn't make any difference,
although I would think the restaurants would also object.
Wright/ If it's that deafening, they might at least need to close their windows.
Dickens/ (mumbled) I think they started at 4:00, 4:00 or 4:30 (mumbled) 7:30 or 8:00. So...
Helling/ We'll have to look at the ordinance.
Champion/ And I don't know what we do about capacity. I'm just complaining here. It's my
complaint time. Uh, because the Iowa-Iowa State game (several talking) the Iowa-Iowa
State game, we actually had to close our business because there were so many drunks on
the street and the sidewalks.
Bailey/ The neighborhoods were the same way.
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Champion/ It was terrible! We actually closed our store and were afraid... sent somebody down
to help walk those young girls out of Cheap N Sheik because the ped mall was so
obnoxious. We were afraid to have them stay open, and walk through that crowd. And
so I...I didn't see a police...I saw a lot of policemen downtown before the game. I didn't
see any afterwards. I should...somebody down there but...
Bailey/ Well, and... and there's a letter in our packet (both talking) and it was the same way. I
didn't see a police car all...all night in our neighborhood at all, and people were just...the
street on the north side looked like, well, like I would imagine the ped mall to look. But
perhaps not. Perhaps it was not as...but it was...it was people up and down and up and
down, knocking on doors to see where parties, I mean, they came to our house thinking it
was a party address because the lights were on light.
Champion/ And so I mean, I think..I don't know...I know that's an unusual game, the Iowa-Iowa
State game.
Bailey/ Lot of people in town.
Champion/ A lot of people in town...but for these...this is a legal problem that we can't address,
that because bars have no responsibility for what goes on inside them, they don't care! I
can't even tell you. People were falling out of those bars, falling out! Falling down!
Police had to carry a couple people out, so there was a policeman around, but I don't, you
know, this...I don't know. I mean, that's my complaints. It's...we can't do anything
about it, but I just...
Bailey/ But, and they did say that they were doing increased party patrols, but I would say that
nobody in my neighborhood believes that that was happening that day for sure.
Because.. .
Champion/ (both talking)
Bailey/ ...did call.
Helling/ Yeah, and we'll get you a response on that, because uh, there were some extenuating
circumstances with the communication system, picking up those calls, uh, because there's
such a, uh, competition if you will, the police officers on those evenings, and what
happens is the system is supposed to pick that up, and when there's an officer free to
return them to that particular call. Uh, that wasn't even...wasn't happening, and there's a
glitch in the system. We're working on there. Um... so you know, those kinds of things.
The other thing is in that particular letter, I think it's the one I'm thinking of, um, there
are, uh, police officers in plain cars and so neighbor may not always recognize that
they're in the neighborhood, even though they are there!
Champion/ But the party didn't stop or slow down.
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Helling/ Yeah, no, that was...that particular one was a case where there was a problem. It
literally did...it was a couple hours before the police got back there, and it shouldn't have
been that long, but the system didn't pick up and reassign that call.
Bailey/ Well, I certainly don't want to tell the police how to do their business, but the challenge
in a neighborhood, versus in the pedestrian plaza is when people go out of a party or a
party is disbanded, they go out throughout the neighborhood and cause problems
throughout, I mean, it becomes...you know, a block or two, and then it becomes a four,
or five, or six block area and how are we addressing that? Because that's a
different...there needs to be a different approach in neighborhoods for party patrols.
Hayek/ Yeah, although you know I will say this...that...that, several weeks ago we heard a
complaint from Suzanne Bentler about the south Governor Street situation after the first
weekend the students were back in town, um, and that things were of concern to her and
her neighbors, and I checked with her...on Monday, following the next weekend, which
was the first home game, and she reported a substantial decrease in problems in that
neighborhood, and her neighbor by her own accounts...estimated that there had been a
90% drop in activity, and I think that's a result of police responding promptly, uh, to
complaints in that neighborhood, and I think this is a process of... of being both proactive
and responsive. Um, as we go through this transition, and ...and....(several talking)
Bailey/ But that was the worst Iowa State weekend I ever remember. And I...I'm not saying that
the problems aren't being addressed. I'm just saying as we address these problems, we
have to have different considerations in dispersing these parties in neighborhoods, not to
create additional problems with noise and additional parties. I don't know.
Champion/ It is a big problem!
Bailey/ It's frustrating when you don't get sleep, and that's how an entire six block area, I mean,
at least in my neighborhood felt.
Wright/ And I'm what, five blocks from you...
Bailey/ And it was quiet?
Wright/ Relatively quiet.
Mims/ Yeah, and South Governor was too.
Bailey/ I'll send them to your place next time they (several talking)
Wright/ ...walk down our street and kick windows out of cars (several talking)
Bailey/ See, we didn't...I would say it was just loud. I don't think we had any vandalism like
they had on South Governor, but...(mumbled)
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Wright/ It seems to be real spotty and mobile.
Bailey/ So maybe addressing the (mumbled)
Hayek/ But the party patrol staffing has doubled.
Bailey/ Well and then I think maybe that's a message that we need to take up to neighborhoods
that they feel better because I think people are not feeling...that may be said, but people
aren't feeling that.
Champion/ In some neighborhoods aren't feeling it. Some neighborhoods (mumbled)
Bailey/ Right, and maybe...maybe it's because what Mike said, it moves.
Champion/ It does move. I mean, we've had problems in Longfellow too, but not (mumbled)
Hayek/ Well, other Council items?
Wright/ Real briefly, we'd, uh, where are we with recycling and uh, possibility of ever moving
toward, uh...
Bailey/ Single stream?
Wright/ Single stream, yeah, thank you.
Bailey/ It costs more.
Wright/ I know it costs more, but you know...
Bailey/ Cedar Rapids is doing it.
Wright/ Dubuque does it and it's beautiful.
Champion/ They have a gambling boat.
Bailey/ Cedar Rapids doesn't. (several talking)
Fosse/ We've got folks working on that and one of the options that they're examining in lieu of
that, because of the additional cost of single stream is...is finding a way to expand into
the multi-family. And we believe that would get us that... more of the recycling market
than the change going to single stream. So we're investigating that option as well.
Wright/ Well, you know...my husband has...teaches in Dubuque and we have a house up there
now, and it's just a tremendously simpler, just toss your recycling into the bin, and I bet
our...our rate at the single-family houses would go up if we had it.
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Fosse/ So if... if that's your desire,
our additional costs will be.
we'll head back and...and look that direction, figure out what
Wright/ It's just night and day difference.
Champion/ Very expensive!
Higgins/ I'm sorry, single stream you don't have to sort? (several talking)
Wright/ You don't have to sort. You just pitch everything into your recycling bin. (laughter)
Higgins/ I'm in!
Bailey/ That's the cost, somebody else has to sort it!
Helling/ Last time Council talked about (several talking) at that breaking point (mumbled)
Bailey/ I think Mike's there!
Helling/ I think it had to do something too with...
Wright/ I'm totally there!
Hayek/ But here...but here's a question. I mean, if it would cost us $100 to go to single stream,
and a $100 to expand to multi-family, what gives us more bang for our buck in terms of
environmental progress?
Champion/ Oh, envir... (mumbled)
Wright/ Didn't the multi-family, wasn't that waiting on a possibility of single stream?
Fosse/ That...that may help facilitate that. Yes.
Hayek/ Yeah, that's a good follow-up.
Bailey/ I...I agree with you. I see the trend with a lot of Iowa...large Iowa cities, going to single
stream, and you know, people...I mean, I hate to say it, but we have a reputation and
people look at Iowa City and they say, what? You don't do that?
Wright/ Actually, you know, we don't...we don't recycle food scraps. Dubuque recycles food
scraps. Now we're actually starting to look a little backwards in terms of what we do for
recycling here.
Bailey/ Yeah.
Dickens/ ...glass (several talking)
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Wright/ Dubuque recycles glass.
Dilkes/ Maybe you need another work session...
Hayek/ Yeah, we're...
Dilkes/ ...on that, I mean it sounds...the direction it sounds like you guys are wanting to go is
perhaps different than the direction that our minutes show, so if that's the case, you need
to have another work session.
Wright/ That's why I brought it up! (laughter)
Fosse/ We'll do that!
Hayek/ Okay, so let's put it on a work session and we'll revisit the issue. We'll recycle the
issue!
Dickens/ On the lighter side I did come for the pinning of the three new firemen (several
talking). It was really kind of a neat ceremony, and the families were here and made me
talk, which I hadn't planned on, but I just...I thought it was very neat and if you get a
chance to come to one, they talk to some of the older firemen that they said they wished
they would have (mumbled) it was kind of neat.
Bailey/ Um, I just wanted to also mention that...in conjunction with the League of Cities, on
Thursday afternoon at 4:00 P.M., the Governor will be at the Marriott doing a press
conference, and everybody is invited. You probably received a phone call, um, I'm doing
a mobile tour and will out at the Marriott, but I would hope that I wouldn't be the only
Council Member from Iowa City there. So...think when the Governor comes to town we
should show up! Yeah.
Mims/ What time?
Bailey/ 4:00 P.M. And I don't know the conference room at the Marriott, but it is at the
Marriott.
Budget:
Hayek/ Any other Council time? Budget? We touched on that. Uh, summary of pending work
session issues. Anything on that?
Pending Work Session Issues:
Helling/ (mumbled) trying to whittle it down for you before the end of the year (laughter)
Hayek/ Okay. Upcoming events and invitations.
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Upcoming Events and Community Invitations:
Wright/ I gave each of you a copy of a brochure from the Public Library for the, uh, 2010
Banned Books Week Read-Out. This is basically a, uh, celebration of the First
Amendment, and trying to get as many folks as possible to come and read a passage from
a banned book. There are hundreds to choose from!
Bailey/ We pick our (mumbled)
Wright/ Actually you probably...I think you could easily do that. Uh, they're looking for broad
participation. They would love to see some Council Members there. I'm actually going
to be emceeing the event that night. Um, and this is, uh, partly sponsored by a fairly
generous grant. The Iowa City Public Library got the largest grant given by the Freedom
to Read Foundation for such an event, um...it was, this is the first year the Freedom to
Read Foundation has given these grants and ICPL put together far and away the...the
most exciting one. Uh, there's also going to be a presence in the University homecoming
parade due to the same type of thing with (mumbled) (laughter) But it's next Thursday
for the Public Library, the 30th from 6:00 to 9:00 P.M.
Karr/ Mike, could I get a copy before you leave...of that?
Wright/ Yep!
Hayek/ Um, you will note the...in the packet there's a League of Women Voters reception on
September 29th, um, and then also a meeting of the League of Cities meeting later this
week in Coralville. Encourage your attendance, as much as you're able to go to.
Wright/ (mumbled)
Hayek/ Yeah! Okay. Discussion of meeting schedules, anything on that?
Meeting Schedules
Karr/ I do, just a couple things. Um, just based on the discussion, the direction given to staff,
um, we will be sending out in Thursday's packet the confirmation of, um, your meetings
for next week, which will include a, uh, special formal on Monday, starting at 8:00 A.M.
Um, we'll then have a, uh, special work session, which will be your meet and greet
Tuesday, 7:30 to 9:00, followed by a special formal Tuesday afternoon, uh, probably
around 3:00 P.M. and then a special, uh, formal again at 11:30 on Wednesday the 29tH
And we'll put all of those into your packet.
Champion/ Marian, can you remind me what time the first interview takes place?
Karr/ On Monday (both talking) 8:00.
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Champion/ Then we probably need to be here...before that so we have time to sit down...
Karr/ It can be any, I mean, I can make it...the special formal will be 8:00, and I can schedule
the...accordingly, after that for the executive session. So 8:00 will be the special formal
and then we'll schedule, and I'll have that in your packet this week.
Hayek/ Anything else for the good of the order? Okay. See you tomorrow.
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