HomeMy WebLinkAbout2013-04-23 TranscriptionApril 23, 2013 Iowa City City Council Work Session Page 1
Council Present: Champion, Dickens, Dobyns, Hayek, Mims, Payne, Throgmorton
Staff Present: Markus, Fruin, Bockenstedt, Moran, Knoche, Karr, Miklo, Fosse, Dilkes,
Davidson, Howard, Morris, Boothroy, Hargadine, Craig, O'Brien,
Bentley, Rackis
Others Present: Bramel (UISG)
Agenda/Planning & Zoning:
Hayek/ Okay, well why don't we go ahead and get started, everyone. It's ... we've got a pretty
packed agenda, both work session and formal. Um, want to welcome everyone to our
work session. Um... got a number of bullet points before us. The first one is Council
consideration or questions regarding agenda items.
ITEM 7g HOUSING COOPERATIVES AND FRATERNAL GROUP LIVING -
AMENDING TITLE 14: ZONING TO DEFINE ROOMING HOUSE
COOPERATIVES AS A TYPE OF FRATERNAL GROUP LIVING USE AND TO
SPECIFY THAT FRATERNAL GROUP LIVING USES ARE ALLOWED BY
SPECIAL EXCEPTION IN THE RNS -20 ZONE AND TO MODIFY THE
RESIDENTIAL DENSITY AND PARKING STANDARDS FOR SAID USES TO
BE CONSISTENT WITH THE DENSITY AND PARKING STANDARDS FOR
MULTI - FAMILY USES.
ITEM 7h STANDARDS FOR STRUCTURED PARKING - AMENDING TITLE
14, ZONING CODE TO ESTABLISH PARKING LOCATION STANDARDS AND
ENTRANCEWAY STANDARDS THAT WILL REDUCE THE VISUAL IMPACT
OF STRUCTURED AND SURFACE PARKING AREAS ALONG RESIDENTIAL
STREETS IN MULTIFAMILY ZONES.
Davidson/ Mr. Mayor, um ... Jeff Davidson, Director of Planning, um, I've asked Karen Howard
to attend the work session tonight to just give you a brief, uh, report on Items 7g and 7h,
um, so we won't have to do that at the formal meeting then, but basically get that out in
front of you in terms of ... uh, some zoning code text change amendments, if that's all
right?
Hayek/ Sure!
Howard/ Okay, there's two ... two amendments, two ordinances on, uh ... in your agenda tonight.
One is zoning code amendments for group living uses. As you I'm sure recall last year
you adopted new standards for, uh, new density standards for multi - family uses to, um,
further your goal of...of stabilizing neighborhoods. Um, however, we didn't at that time
change the density standards, um, for group living uses. Group living use ... uses are
divided into two different categories. One's independent group living uses, which are
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basically rooming houses, and the other category is fraternal group living, which is, uh,
fraternities, sororities, um, groups that have a fraternal or ... or relationship with each
other that are living in the house (clears throat) and we realized, um, recently that this sort
of mismatch between the density standards for multi - family and fraternal and
independent group living may cause (clears throat) problems in the, with the new
standards, and ... because of the inconsistency. So, um, that came to light when we were
approached by the River City Housing, uh, collective (clears throat) Excuse me. They're
a, currently categorized as independent group living, and they have a number of rooming
houses, that they are a collective, so they're owner- occupied in the sense that all their
members, um, own as a collective their rooming houses, and they have a relationship
with each other, um, and so they were interested in expanding, um, but realized that they
are ... because they are independent group living, they are not currently, um, allowed any
longer in the RNS -20 zone, which is where most of their housing, rooming houses, are
located. Um, in an attempt to sort of help them along, um, we were trying to brainstorm
some ideas for them and realized there was this mismatch between density standards
(clears throat) Um, at the same time we realized that there was an upswing in Greek life
at the University of Iowa and, um, there may be requests, in fact there is a request for a
new fraternity house, um, on the east side of Iowa City, and realizing that that mismatch
too is happening at the same time. So all these things are kind of grouped together, um,
into one issue, um... so there are a number of solutions that we've come up with these
code amendments, urn ... one for the River City, for groups like the River City Housing
Collective, um, is to move them from independent group living into fraternal group living
because there is a relationship amongst the members. They fit more carefully into the
... into that category. That would allow them to expand in the area where their rooming
houses are currently located, which is the RNS -20 zone, which is the multi - family
stabilization zone. By moving them and creating a new definition for rooming house, uh,
collectives, we can more carefully, you know, regulate those types of rooming houses.
So that's the ordinance amendment for ... that's before you today. The ... the other part of
that is to realizing that there is this upswing in... in fraternal group living, um, looking at
those density standards, making them the same as multi - family, and also, um, considering
that those larger type uses, big fraternities, sororities, you know, have to be carefully fit
into the neighborhood in a sensitive manner. Um, we're suggesting recommending that
they be changed from a provisional use to a special exception. So if there is a new one
proposed, they'd have to go through the Board of Adjustment to make sure that it's
properly located and designed to fit into the fabric of the neighborhood. Um, so those are
basically the ... there's a series of small amendments that go along with that, but that's
basically the gist of...that series of amendments. The second set of amendments, um... is
to structured parking and multi ... with multi- family and group living uses. And as you
probably are aware, there's a parking location standard in the downtown area for our CB
zones that requires to be set back behind a commercial storefront. So we always require
that the first 30 feet or 50 feet in the ... in the main downtown be reserved for active
commercial uses. Uh, we don't have that same kind of standard in our multi - family
zones, and because things are getting denser closer to downtown with the multi - family
zones, we're seeing more, uh, a proliferation of, uh, parking built on the first level and
the residential units raised up above, um, I've got a couple photos here. This is an... not
a brand -new building but obviously this demonstrates the issue. This has created
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problems, urn ... uh, not only for pedestrians and the comfort of the ... of the street as
people walk along. You see the parking level rather than the residential level. It also
creates problems for making units accessible, handicapped - accessible, and just creating a
good streetscape. Here's a more recent example, um, this ... this building here, obviously,
um ... this was built up in order to hide the parking level, but you can see they had to have
a whole series of steps to get up to the resil ... residential units and raised this whole
building to something that was out of scale with ... with the other things in the
neighborhood. So we're just starting to see more and more of these buildings where the
whole residential unit is built above a parking level, rather than sinking the parking either
underground or have it behind ... the residential units. So that is what we're talking about
here is creating some standard, similar to what we have in the ... in the downtown zones,
requiring at least a minimum amount along the frontage that be residential space before
you could ... and you'd have to locate your parking behind that space. And also that
would keep the stoops lower, um, make it much easier to provide handicapped- accessible
entrances for the folks that live in those buildings.
Payne/ But what impact does that have on areas that are in ... in the flood plain then, because a lot
of times they do things such as this so that what's under ... what's on the ground level is
not a living unit.
Howard / Right. Right, just for that reason. If you look at the ordinance carefully we've written
in, uh, some flexibility for unusual, unique situations like flood plains where you do have
to raise the ... the units above the flood plain. So we've written that in, so somebody can
get a minor modification if you ... they're in that kind of a situation.
Payne/ So would they go to...
Howard/ (mumbled) administrative review.
Payne/ Okay. Thank you!
Howard/ The other thing we want to give you a heads up, um, is that there is a proposed
fraternity at the corner of, for a property at the corner of Governor Street and Burlington
Street, so you may hear about that this evening in your formal meeting. So we wanted to
give you a heads up about that. Um...
Throgmorton/ Which corner?
Howard/ The, uh ... the northeast corner. Um ... this property is in the RNS -20 zone. It ... it is of a
size that would allow basically six one or two - bedroom apartments or four three- bedroom
apartments. Um ... with the current group living, um, standards, they can ... they can do
more than 20 bedrooms. The ... owner of the property would like to do a new fraternity
that would have 18, uh, residents. He struggled to come up with an acceptable, uh,
building design that fits the site. The ... such a big building on such a, a fairly small site,
um, he's been struggling with this, um, so he's been caught in the fact that there's now a
moratorium. He does not have an approved site plan, nor does he have a building permit.
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Um, he believes that he can work with the new parking standard that's being proposed.
Um, but he ... he, he'll probably explain at the building tonight that he doesn't believe that
he can meet the new density standard that's being proposed. Um ... he may request some
sort of exemption from this process, and we just wanted to let you know that, um, in the
past we've written certain exemptions into ordinances. I think we did it last time with the
multi - family, um, standards that went through, but those were properties where the
building permit had already been issued and the site plan had already been approved. So
there was something that we could tie ... tie the exception to, or the exemption to. In this
case we have neither of those. So staff is uncertain how we would ... how we would do
that. Um, the Planning and Zoning Commission also ho ... also heard from ... from this
applicant, um, at the hearing, and they have indicated, uh, a desire to meet with the
Council if you choose to try to create an exemption for them ... for this particular
individual. Um, they would like to have a consulting meeting with you.
Markus / What does that mean, Karen? Does that ... does that indicate the, uh, P &Z's desire not
to see this progress?
Howard/ Well I think he hear ... they heard from Mr. Mulford and ... and heard all the evidence
and the neighbors that came to speak, um, and I think they feel like this is a good
ordinance and they would like to have the opportunity to speak with the Council cause
they're concerned about creating the exemption for him.
Hayek/ Would... wouldn't we be required to do that anyway?
Howard/ Um, you would, but um...
Dilkes/ I can't (noises on mic) wouldn't we what?
Hayek/ Be required to hold that joint meeting?
Dilkes/ Right.
Hayek/ That's essentially what you're talking about.
Markus/ Yeah (several talking)
Howard/ ...but I just wanted to note that they have already indicated.
Hayek/ If... if we didn't follow their recommendation (both talking)
Howard/ ...if you didn't follow...
Dilkes/ Right. We ... we asked `em specifically at the meeting because if they ... if they didn't, if
that wasn't a concern to them, we wanted to know that we can move forward.
Hayek/ Oh, okay.
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Dilkes/ Yeah.
Dobyns/ So they heard the complainant and they feel confident in their vote?
Dilkes/ Yes.
Howard/ Any questions?
Hayek/ Okay. Thank you for that information. Any questions from Council regarding the
agenda items? And we have a few of `em!
Throgmorton/ (mumbled)
Hayek/ Go ahead, Jim!
ITEM 5d(3) REDEMPTION OF GENERAL OBLIGATION BONDS -
RESOLUTION AUTHORIZING THE REDEMPTION OF OUTSTANDING
TAXABLE GENERAL OBLIGATION BONDS OF THE CITY OF IOWA CITY,
STATE OF IOWA, DATED MARCH 1, 2004, AND DIRECTING NOTICE BE
GIVEN.
Throgmorton/ But I ... I don't want to jump in so I'm...
Hayek/ Go ahead and ... and get started.
Throgmorton/ Okay. (mumbled) Uh, with regard to 5d(3), the redemption of GO bonds related
to Plaza Towers. Uh, I've asked Dennis if he can explain the difference, assuming there
is one, the difference between the TIF and the GO bonds for this, for Plaza Towers,
um ... um ... difference between, uh, it and ... and the proposed one that might take place
with regard to the College and Gilbert Street site.
Bockenstedt/ (mumbled) and I don't know if that structure has been proposed yet for the College
/Gilbert site, but essentially there's two types of bonds that we would use for this type of
project. Uh, one is a general obligation bond that is being repaid with, uh, tax increment
financing. And the other one would be tax increment revenue bond. Uh, the essential
difference is for, uh, a general obligation bond or a GO bond is that you pledge the City's
full faith and credit for the repayment of that bond. For a TIF revenue bond, you're...
you're not pledging the City's full faith and credit. You're merely pledging the revenues
derived from the TIF district or the TIF project. And so it's considered a much riskier
bond from the bondholder's perspective because the City's not pledging its full faith and
credit. And so generally they pay a higher rate of interest. Um, and that is the type of
bond that was used for the, uh, Park at 201 project. So that's really the essential two
types of bonds that would be used, uh, for these types of projects.
Throgmorton/ Okay.
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Hayek/ But we haven't, I mean, we haven't reached a decision point (both talking) have a
recommendation yet. (both talking)
Throgmorton/ ...understand that.
Hayek/ Okay. Thanks, Dennis!
ITEM 5d(1) TRANSIT FAREBOX REPLACEMENT PROJECT - AWARDING
CONTRACT AND AUTHORIZING THE CITY MANAGER TO SIGN AND THE
CITY CLERK TO ATTEST A CONTRACT FOR REPLACEMENT OF TRANSIT
FARE COLLECTION SYSTEM FOR THE TRANSPORTATION SERVICES
DEPARTMENT.
Payne/ I have a couple questions. Item 5d(1) is the transit fare box replacement project. It's
going to be a really easy question (laughter)
O'Brien/ I'll try not to make it more complicated! (laughter)
Payne/ It ... (laughs) it sounds like we went out for a joint RFP with Coralville?
O'Brien/ Correct!
Payne/ So did we get a better price because of what, you know (both talking)
O'Brien/ The per unit, we got a better price than we would have had we gone solo. Uh, we had
29 total fare boxes. They added an additional 11, um, so there was ... there was some...
some benefit, um, between that and the software ... to be able to do that.
Payne/ Okay! I told you it was going to be easy! (laughter) I have another really silly question.
Hayek/ Well then don't ask it if it's that silly, but go ahead (laughter)
ITEM 5d(9) DOWNTOWN STREETSCAPE PLAN AGREEMENT —
RESOLUTION AUTHORIZING THE MAYOR TO SIGN AND THE CITY
CLERK TO ATTEST A CONSULTANT AGREEMENT WITH GENUS
LANDSCAPE ARCHITECTS (DES MOINES, IA) FOR THE DOWNTOWN
STREETSCAPE PLANNING PROJECT.
Payne/ Um, Item 5d(9), downtown streetscape plan. Have we talked about that before and I just
don't ever... and I don't remember it?
Markus/ This is, uh, Geoff s uh, area.
Payne/ Expertise?
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Markus/ Um, involvement with the (mumbled)
Fruin/ We did talk about it, uh, it first came up, uh, two budget sessions ago. There was
originally $850,000 in the capital budget for maintenance downtown, so, ulL you know,
some replacing of bricks that are heaving, uh, planters that are starting to split, in terms of
the limestone; um ... benches and just things that are looking tired and then as we got
further into it, and as the district, uh, started to form and articulate their vision, we
decided that that probably wasn't money well spent. That we needed a ... more of a, uh, a
new start in terms of a vision, Comprehensive Plan, so um, we came back to you at a
work session — I don't recall when, but shortly after the district formed and went through
their strategic planning session and uh, asked that we go that route. Um, you confirmed
that that would be okay and then when we went through the budget cycle again this year,
we took that $850,000 and we split it up into two years. $350,000 for the planning effort
and the design work, which is what we're dealing with here today, and then we pushed
$500,000 out towards implementation of the plan.
Payne/ Okay.
Fruin/ Which'll likely be next year.
Dobyns/ Downtown needs a makeover.
Payne/ I know. I just don't remember it...at all talking about it so it was like ... I...
Dobyns/ I think the language was different but ... yeah.
Payne/ Okay.
Markus/ It's likely the ultimate total cost of this project will exceed the original estimate of $850,
looking at it more comprehensively.
Hayek/ Yeah.
Throgmorton/ Geoff, am I right in understanding that both sides of Burlington Street would be
included in the planning area?
Fruin/ We did include both sides of Burlington, uh, from, uh, Gilbert to Clinton and including the
north block where the Old Capitol Town Center sits.
Throgmorton/ Yeah, really needs attention.
Fruin/ Yeah.
Throgmorton/ Thanks.
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Fruin/ So it's ... it really mirrors the downtown district and ... except it does include the south side
of Burlington, and it includes the City Hall block even.
Hayek/ How do we marry that up with what we're looking at on Burlington, I would say west of
Clinton, as we redo that thoroughfare.
Fruin/ It's ... it's one of the challenging parts of this ... this process, but there are several plans in
place that need to be tied together. So we have the plan that you just mentioned there
for ... f irther down the bridge, and they'll have to look at that work and what's proposed
there, and... and think about how that's going to translate to the north, but we also are,
you know, they have to dig into the University's campus master plan to understand what
their visions are, especially along the Iowa Avenue corridor. They have to look at, you
know, what we just implemented on the Northside Market Place in terms of the
streetscape there and, you know, not that all those plans have to produce a very, you
know, a ... the same type of street furniture and look, but they need to complement each
other and so, um ... I think when we went through the RFP we picked out ... I don't know,
four or five or six different plans that are all coming together in this one area. The
Riverfront Crossings master plan is another one. They're going to have to pick all those
up and ... you know work with that. It's a lot of information. But that'll be part of it.
Hayek/ Okay.
Payne/ I also have a question on Item 7, which is a Planning and Zoning item.
ITEM 7a AMERICAN LEGION ROAD ANNEXATION - RESOLUTION FOR A
VOLUNTARY ANNEXATION OF APPROXIMATELY 2 ACRES OF
PROPERTY LOCATED NEAR THE NORTHEAST CORNER OF SCOTT
BOULEVARD AND AMERICAN LEGION ROAD (ANN13- 00001).
ITEM 7b AMERICAN LEGION ROAD REZONING - CONDITIONALLY
REZONING APPROXIMATELY 2 ACRES FROM COUNTY RESIDENTIAL (R)
AND APPROXIMATELY 2.83 ACRES FROM LOW- DENSITY SINGLE -
FAMILY RESIDENTIAL (RS -5) TO LOW- DENSITY MULTI - FAMILY
RESIDENTIAL (RM -12) LOCATED AT EAST OF SCOTT BOULEVARD AND
NORTH OF MUSCATINE AVENUE AND AMERICAN LEGION ROAD.
[Discussion only at formal meeting] (REZ13 -00002 & REZ13- 000030
Hayek/ Which one?
Payne/ It is the one with, um, Scott Boulevard and Muscatine Avenue.
Hayek/ We...
Davidson/ We can talk about the annexation but not the zoning.
Payne / And ... my question has ... is...
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Davidson/ There it is.
Payne/ Um ... I had a question more about the street light and traffic back -up. What does that
...is that something we can or can't talk about?
Dilkes/ That's probably more the rezoning.
Payne/ Okay.
Dilkes/ (both talking) ...and while we're on this item, um, as of right now the CZA is not signed
on 7b. Unless that changes at the time of the public hearing, we'll need to ... you can go
ahead with the annexation but we'll need to continue the, uh, public hearing on the
rezoning, on 7b.
Hayek/ Is there any reason not to proceed with 7a? Under those circumstances?
Dilkes/ Jeff and I have talked about that and we don't see why not. It's consistent with the
Comprehensive Plan and the, our growth boundaries and, um, our fringe area (both
talking)
Davidson/ It's basically an in -fill parcel.
Dilkes/ Yeah.
Davidson/ ...there's Windsor Ridge further... further out.
Hayek/ Okay.
ITEM 7r LINDEMANN PART FOUR -A - RESOLUTION APPROVING FINAL
PLAT.
ITEM 7s LINDEMANN PART FIVE - RESOLUTION APPROVING FINAL
PLAT.
Dilkes/ And ... and while also we ... we're on Planning and Zoning matters, 7r and 7s, urn ... need
to be deferred. The legal papers are still in transition. We spoke to Joe Holland today...
Hayek/ Lindemann.
Dilkes/ The Lindemann final plats. 7r and 7s. (noises on mic)
Hayek/ Thank you.
ITEM 5f(5) Sally Cline ( Idyllwild Condominiums Owners Association): Idyllwild
Storm -Water Flood Mitigation
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Throgmorton/ I ... I'd like to ask ... ask a question about 5f(5) and this would be for Rick. So it,
uh, this concerns Sally Cline's memo or email or whatever concerning storm water
management at... at Idyllwild. She asked completely reasonable questions, I think, but
basically it's where do things stand with regard to the storm water management aspects?
Fosse/ We're preparing to go out for requests for proposals to engineering firms to look at better
ways to route that water that enters the northwest corner of their site, to the Iowa River.
So that ... that's exactly where it stands. We're...
Throgmorton/ Yeah. Have you had a chance to respond to her?
Fosse/ No, I have not!
Throgmorton/ Yeah.
Markus/ She ... she'll be getting a response.
Throgmorton/ Yeah. Good!
Dobyns/ So, Rick, my understanding is that we're going to take a look at it, but if there's a
project recommendation that ensues, it's currently not funded ... in the budget?
Fosse/ That is ... that is correct.
Hayek/ Thank you. Other agenda questions? Okay! Uh, let's move on to the next bullet point,
which is the, uh, presentation regarding disproportionate minority contact and the, uh,
research of Johnson County. Hi! Welcome!
Overview of Iowa Department of Human Rights Report to Johnson County Officials
Entitled "Local Discussions Related to Disproportionate Minority Contact" RP # 31:
Nesteby/ Hi, good evening! I'm Kathy Nesteby and I'm with the Division of Criminal and
Juvenile Justice Planning, which I will refer to as CJJP, uh, which is in the Department of
Human Rights with the State of Iowa. And I'm going to give you a little bit of
background and this is the report we're talking about, and hopefully you've all had a
chance to take a look at it. Um, and then my co- worker, Dave Kuker, is going to talk a
little bit more about it, as well. I just want to give you a little bit of background about
CJPP first of all. Uh, staff ...our staff deals with both the adult criminal system, as well
as the juvenile justice system. We do a lot of data analysis and research and policy -
related work. Um ... the juvenile justice staff is responsible for the oversight of the
Juvenile Justice Delinquency Prevention Act, monies — it's federal funding that we get.
Um, we have several different core requirements that we have to take a look at with
regard to the juvenile justice system and we do a lot of work with juvenile court officers
around the state, um, and work with law enforcement, as well. Uh, our juvenile justice
staff, the system's different — the adult and juvenile systems differ considerably. Um, all
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stemming from the fact that years ago there was some recognition that you can't treat
kids the same way that you treat adults when they break the law, which is something
we're learning more and more about with brain development these days, and you I'm
sure have heard some about that, that we have to take into consideration that kids just
aren't quite done cooking yet (laughter) um, so the juvenile justice system has to take that
into account, which requires a balancing act between public safety and between
rehabilitation, I guess kind of for lack of a better way of putting it. It's the difference
between risk and need, and balancing those two for kids, because we do more service
provision with juveniles, um, than we necessarily do with the adult population when they
break the law. Um, one of the core requirements of the JJDP Act is taking a look at
disproportionate minority contact. Um, so that's one of the four ... we have four core
requirements, and that's one of the big ones that we have to keep our eye on that and
make sure that we're taking a look at that in the State of Iowa. Um, up until pretty
recently we contracted much of that work to be done in specific sites around the state of
Iowa, including Iowa City, which has been one of our sites we contracted with the
University of Iowa actually to do the work around the state and included Iowa City. Um,
unfortunately we've had an 85% cut in our funding over the last decade or so. Uh, which
meant we had to pull that contract back so staff within our office has taken on the work of
going out to different sites around the state. Um, including here in Johnson County. Um
...so last summer and fall, Dave and I ... uh, got in our State car (laughs) and went around
to, uh, different cities in Iowa to talk about DMC, of course, Iowa City being one of those
sites and if you look at page 12 ... of the report, it's the attachment 8, it'll show you who
we talked to in Iowa City so...
Karr/ I have hard copies of the report that Kathy provided if anyone is interested. (several
responding)
Nesteby/ Sorry! I thought for sure you would probably have that in hand. (laughs) My bad.
Should have ... should have asked, but um there is a list of the specific people we talked
to, and that list is very similar in other communities as far as the types of people that we
talked to. Um, so ... as a result of those interviews, you've got this report. This is what
we've written as a re ... as a result of those interview. It has several sections, and of
course in looking at which sections are there, you're more than welcome to ask que... ask
questions about any of them; however, Dave is going to spend a little time talking about
Section 6, which is on page 7 of the report. Uh, is the overall arrests and juvenile court
service referral section, uh, and we thought it was probably the most pertinent section to,
you know, talk about with you all since you're looking at issues of the City. We have
sections in there on detention and schools and ... but this one seemed the ... the pertinent
place to start. So I'm going to turn it over to Dave!
Hayek/ Thank you!
Kuker/ Thank you for your time tonight. Kathy noted that we were able to interview a number
of people in your community, and some of the analysis that you see in the report is
directly related to the conversations. You're probably not surprised, but folks bent over
backwards to accommodate the interview process, um, it's something that we certainly
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appreciate. I'm going to ask for you to please go ahead and turn to Attachment F in the
report. (mumbled) Justice Data Warehouse, and it contains information on juvenile court
processing for young people.
Dobyns/ Where is this? Is this ... an appendix at the end?
Champion/ In the back!
Kuker/ It is. It's on pages 18 and 19 of the report, and we based on the questions that we
received in this community and elsewhere, um, queried our warehouse and the
information in this section is on young people that have been arrested and referred to
juvenile court. So these are young people that were, um, arrested and landed in your
juvenile justice system here. So I would distinguish it from a simple arrest. These are
kids that actually made it to juvenile court. And what we did when we queried our
warehouse, was wanted to get some kind of a perspective for the volume of traffic that
we're ... that we saw, um, for the different racial ethnic groups, and ... and maybe what this
thing, this chart does other than helps overwhelm because there are so many offenses
listed there, is at the bottom it provides some kind of a perspective on what are we
looking at in terms of raw numbers over the course of the report years. The data is
organized by calendar year, and maybe what you can quickly see as you look at the
bottoms of those pages is that, um, the kids that ended up in juvenile court — Caucasian
numbers reduced during the report period, African American numbers actually increased.
Um, we will return to that in just a second, um, but this gives you some kind of a broad
sense for what's going on. So, Kathy noted, um, that we're going to talk about the arrests
and referral sections, so I'd send you back to pages, um, 7 and 8 and look as well at
Figure 4. We were trying to get some sense for what is the volume of traffic in terms of
what are the types of offenses, um, that make the top five list for each of these kids. And
as you look for white kids, um, and African American kids, theft fifth. Um, kids steal
stuff. So across the state in the different counties we ran theft fifth rose to the top for all
of them, for all racial ethnic groups. So young people like to steal stuff. Um, what was
unique or different, um, was that, um, the Caucasian kids included some alcohol and drug
offenses. Neither of those offenses na ... made it to the top five for African American
kids. So at least in terms of a distinction, one of the things we look at are the types of
offenses. So, um, African American kids had higher numbers of disorderly conducts and
white kids had `em, uh, the actual numerical count of disorderly conducts was higher for
African American kids. Um, African American kids also add interference with official
acts in their top five list. What we, um, the Department of Public Safety and the
Department of Corrections do is we characterize those two offenses — disorderly conduct
and interference with official acts — as crimes against justice and authority, public order
offenses. So one of the ways you distinguish, um, Caucasian versus African American
kids is all told, um, Caucasian kids have 7% of their ... of all their offenses that are public
order offenses; um, African American kids have 21 % of all their offenses that are public
order. So, um, these kids, these African American kids are showing up in higher
numbers for public order offenses... public order offenses, if you put the two races
together, and look at the overall composition, um, kids of color, African American kids
are 76% of the communities' public order offenses. So this is where they're lining up.
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So if we say offenses are actually increasing for African Americans and going down for,
um, white kids, these are the offenses that are driving the increases. So one way of
looking at them is these are the types of offenses, if you'll page on to page 9 in your
report. Another way of looking at them is what is the offense level. So if you look
towards the right of the circle graphs, you'll see that numerically, um, there are more
white kids, um, and similar percentage of kids that are making it to juvenile court on
felony level offenses. Similar... similarly for indictable misdemeanors, which are serious
and aggravated misdemeanors. The percentages are identical, and the differentiation then
is in simple misdemeanor offenses. So, Caucasian kids are 48% of the simple
misdemeanor offenses that make it to juvenile court; African Americans are 61 %. So
maybe the learning is there are significant numbers here and across the state of kids that
are getting to juvenile court on simple misdemeanor offenses. And that ... if you wanted
to affect overrepresentation of kids of color... you wouldn't make any difference by
affecting it for felony or indictable misdemeanors. That's good, um, because if
somebody's got a weapon and is physically hurting someone, th ... there's not much we
have a choice of, but on the lowest level offenses, those are young people that we can
work with. Um, I think there is often, not universally, a public perception that African
American kids that end up in juvenile court are there for gang violence, for weapons, and
for high level of...high level offenses. So for us, the learning from this is that where
these kids are overrepresented are at the lowest spectrum of offending. We do have some
opportunity yet to affect those. What you'll see from the recommendation there is what
is the extent that we can dig further into this. Uh, we ... we are willing to query our data
set to look more closely at this. We are willing to be a part of any local discussions to the
extent that there's an interest in looking more closely at this. And, Kathy mentioned
earlier, uh, that balance of juvenile court between accountability, public safety, and
rehabilitation, and the question is ... are these kids being best served by a referral to
juvenile court. As a practical matter, many of these offenses when they make it to
juvenile court are being diverted out. 60% of the kids that end up in juvenile court are
there once or twice and never come back, and ... that's the good news. So a lot of kids
have their stupid moment, they get caught, and don't come back. And certainly a lot of
the kids in that simple misdemeanor category are there. Um ... so ... from our perspective
this was ... go ahead, I'll take any questions.
Champion/ When you're talking about these percentages as simple (mumbled) there are repeats.
Are they included in that percentage?
Kuker/ These are incident -based data, so that's a noteworthy (both talking) so this isn't a kid
count.
Champion/ Okay. Okay. Thank you.
Kuker/ What we have been able to do in a limited fashion is ... in ... I don't know if we did it for
here or not. We've done some kid counts. If you look in Attachment... 14, it's pages 14
and 15, Attachment C. And essentially what that attachment reflects is a broad
overrepresentation of juvenile court decision - making. What we're able to do is if they
make it to juvenile court, we can do some counts by kid, or by case. Minimally by case.
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Such counts have not eliminated the overrepresentation that you see. The simple reason
being is ... there is a correct assumption that we've got a small number of African
American kids that are committing a lot of offenses. That is correct. To go along with
that, we've got a small number of white kids committing a lot of offenses, and they don't
cancel one another out. So typically speaking the overrepresentation we see in the
juvenile court won't go away, um, just simply by eliminating all the incidences. Also it's
more difficult to do those types of counts, um, for arrests. Those are data in our
warehouse. Um, they're data from the Department of Public Safety. The latest data,
2011, isn't out yet but ... anyway, a helpful question.
Throgmorton/ (several talking) I'm sorry!
Payne/ I...
Throgmorton/ Go ahead!
Payne/ My question was do you have anything where, let's just take simple misdemeanor for
example. We have a total of cases.
Kuker/ Right.
Payne/ Is there anything that shows X% were white, X% were black, X% were Asian, X% were
Hispanic — so you're comparing that ... item and how many ... how many ... what's the
representation of race by item?
Kuker/ We can do that. Um, at some level you've... you've got exactly that in Figure 5. So, uh,
we ... we've said if you look ... are you wanting to group `em all together in one number?
Payne/ Yes, I mean, like your simple mis ... misdemeanors are 48% of, that's what Caucasians
are charged with, and 61% are African American. Well, take just simple
mis ... misdemeanor and tell me what are the race disper ... across that item?
Kuker/ Yeah, we can do that.
Champion/ I have to ask for clarification. Now you've confused me! To me the 61 % means of
their crime ratio.
Kuker/ 61 is derived by, you can add the percentages across. They may not equal exactly 100
because we round it...
Champion/ Right!
Kuker/ ...but what you're looking at here is all the allegations that landed in juvenile court for
African Americans, 61% of `em, um, were for simple misdemeanors (both talking)
Champion/ ...that's exactly what I thought. Thank you.
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Payne/ But ... but I guess what I'm saying is 87% of the people in Johnson County are white, and
5% are black.
Kuker/ Right.
Payne/ Is it equally dispersed, 87% and 5% in other?
Kuker/ It isn't remotely close. (several talking) Here or in any other metro area in Iowa.
Payne/ Yes! Right.
Kuker/ And maybe the other major point to make is the types of overrepresentation we saw,
whether it be in allegations referred to juvenile court, in the school discipline process, in
juvenile detention facility holds, in another juvenile justice system processing points, um,
in Iowa most of the minority populations reside in metropolitan areas. The levels of
overrepresentation we see are fairly similar. And ... as a state, we're ... we're very white.
So we don't have ... we're the same size as Arkansas, our state populations are the same
and I think like 30 to 40% of their state population is African American. So that's a
pretty big distinction from us, where it's about 5 or 6 %.
Dobyns/ Right.
Throgmorton/ So ... so my eye is drawn to a sentence on page 9, uh, the sentence reads: these,
and you already referred to this, these offenses are those that offer the greatest
opportunity for the judicious exercise of discretion by justice system representatives. So
what I would wonder, and maybe you're not in a the position to do this right now, is what
kind of advice you could give us about how to exercise our discretion differently.
Kuker/ I think the first thing I'd do is dig more fully into the data. Um, are there offenses that
are coming in with these? Um, are these kids that have had, um, multiple other
allegations referred to juvenile court? Um, are these kids that are known to the juvenile
court? When are these offenses taking place? Um, are they the result of fighting? Um,
is it a large group of kids? So those'd be the base questions I'd try to answer, um, what
other jurisdictions are attempting to do is they're saying, let's try and deal with this in
programming, um, that'll take place before the kid needs to be referred to juvenile court,
and um, additionally are there things that we can be doing, um, to engage these kids
better in school. Um, are there actions, um, that we can take to better engage their
parents, um, and try and deal with it at a family level?
Dobyns/ So to dig into the data, I'm taking a look ... it looks like the referral rates, um, those
juveniles introduced to the juvenile system is higher for African American than
Caucasian in Johnson County.
Kuker/ Yes.
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Dobyns/ The percentage of detention, um ... uh, compared to referral rates is higher for African
American than for whites.
Kuker/ Yes.
Dobyns/ You've also told us clearly that there is a symmetry in how the two groups present, um,
I think you referred to it as crimes against authority, um ... or a more aggressive types of,
uh, interactions. If you controlled for that, if you took 100 Caucasian kids who had the
same kind of crimes, and 100 African American kids who had the same kind of crimes,
you controlled for that, um, change. Would the referral rates be the same?
Kuker/ No, um ... part of what we did, um, in the 90s, um, in the late 90s, um, and in the mid -
2000s was tracked samples of kids. So, um, we used a researcher out of the University of
Northern Iowa, I mean, no offense with UNI but ... and what he did was he grabbed a
population of kids of color, African American, Latino are the two largest populations, and
he compared those to, um, a population of Cau... Caucasian kids. He was able to, um,
provide a coding on the presenting offense severity, the delinquency history, and other
factors of the case, and I ... I think the primary finding across time is that African
American kids, um, are less likely for similar delinquency histories to receive a diversion
and more likely to go to detention.
Dobyns/ Given the same crime?
Kuker/ Given (both talking) given... given the same (both talking)
Dobyns/ That's not Johnson County, but you're referring to more general (both talking)
Kuker/ That is correct. So if you look across Linn, Johnson, Woodbury. I ... I know Blackhawk
was included. I'm pretty sure that Scott County was included, as well. So you are less
likely, um, as an African American kid with similar offending characteristics to a
Caucasian kid, um, to be diverted out and more likely to place in a ... be placed in a
detention facility. And what's more, Iowa's not unique in that regard. Those are similar
findings, um, to many other states.
Dobyns/ So to emphasize what Jim said, I mean, if an Af (mumbled) American kid gets in a
security personnel's face, versus a Caucasian kid getting in a security personnel's face,
um, there's going to have to be differential thinking of restraint with that African
American kid. I'm trying to ... extrapolate what you said, Jim.
Champion/ I think that's true generally with, um, African American adults too, and I think part
of the reason is soc ... social economic. In fact they don't have the resources to hire good
lawyers, not that public defenders are bad, but they're really overworked and (laughs)
Kuker/ We talk about this a little bit, um, in the report itself. It is not that there aren't significant
disparities in... in income levels, um, and on down the line, housing, and... and we're
probably moving into a theoretical discussion... if you look at the work that we're trying
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to do, we ... we're trying to affect the structure of how decisions are being made, for the
simple reason I can control that. In 20 years I'll come back here, there'll still be poor
people in Johnson County, and they may well be disproportionately people of color. But
what I do have control of is how I make a decision on who I'm going to lock up, and how
I make a decision on who I'm going to refer to juvenile court, and there is ... the enemy of
overrepresentation is discretion. So to the extent, um, that we're going to say, I can lock
up whoever I want, it'll always be disproportionately people of color. Is it because
people are bad? No, you're good people. Um, the people that look in ... that work in your
juvenile court are as good as it gets in this state, um, but ... to the extent that we can affect
decision - making and avoid justice by geography, or justice by juvenile court officer,
um ... that's what we do have control of. And ... and because we can do it, we should do it,
because there are so many things we cannot do.
Mims/ It's interesting that you comment on that because of all the recommendations in ... in the
document, and I've kind of gone through and highlighted, and the one that I really
marked with an asterisk was the one that specifically addresses that, in that Johnson
County officials need to implement an instrument developed specifically for detention
screening. To take some of that subjectivity out of it.
Kuker/ Yep.
Mims/ Um, you know, I think this gets a little bit to ... to Rick's comment, um, you know, there's
not only racial, there's cultural differences...
Kuker/ Sure.
Mims/ ...in people's behaviors, um, you know, and sometimes those cultural differences are tied
to race and... and people being used to more urban areas and coming to a smaller city,
and so, and then the reaction of...police officials and others to those behaviors,
um ... where if you have something that is more objective in terms of the screening and
the decision - making, uh, might help us, because I have to say in looking at this
information, it is not at all surprising to me, but it continues to be horrifying to me, um,
what a terrible job we are doing locally and at the state level, um, in terms of the
disproportionate representation of minorities in our justice system. It's horrifying!
Markus/ (several talking) Can I add a...
Hayek/ Go ahead!
Markus/ ...a comment into this? When you talk about, uh, judicial or justice discretion, talk
about where that starts and ... and where the most impact can occur. Are you talking
about police discretion or are you talking about diversion discretion when it gets into the
court system or ... or an advance or some place in between.
Kuker/ As you advance in the court processing, the level of overrepresentation experienced goes
down. So once you get a kid in court, um, there are fairly high legal standards, um, to
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protect against overrepresentation. If you look at Iowa, and you look at other states, the
highest levels of overrepresentation are at the very front ends of system decision - making.
So...
Markus/ Meaning?
Kuker/ Arrests, referral to juvenile court, diversion, and placement in juvenile detention. So
those are the areas we've got, and the nation has the highest level of overrepresentation.
Typically speaking, those are the areas where there's the most discretion and um, the
least specificity of standard for which, um, the decisions are being made. So what I'm
suggesting to you is the extent to which we can try and standardize decision - making in
those early phases, such as a detention screening tool, is the best protection, um, that we
can provide, um ... I'm a State employee, so ... as public servants, that's ... the best we can
do. The place ... there have been few successes with this work across the country.
Uh ... one of the very few things that has had some consistent success is use of a detention
screening tool. To the extent that you've got a legal standard that you can apply to all
kids at all times of the day, at all days of the week, um, is the best protection that you can
build in. We've got three sites right now that are using those instruments. Blackhawk,
Polk, and Woodbury County. They're pilot sites. We haven't got anybody else to bite on
use of those instruments.
Markus/ Okay, so ... so we have a contact with a ... with our Police Department. They make a
discretionary decision to ... to arrest.
Kuker/ Yep.
Markus/ Tell me how ... what's the next step? What happens with this, the, uh, the screening, uh,
alternative or discretion? For detention.
Kuker/ In (both talking) first of all it's different in all jurisdictions, um, and I'll let the Chief
jump in whenever he wants, but essentially I'm deciding that there may be a public safety
risk or an issue for this young person and in your jurisdiction here they would be
transported out to the detention facility, um, that sits between your community and Cedar
Rapids. Um, they would call one of the supervisors at that detention facility and a
decision would be made as to whether or not they were going to hold that young person.
Markus/ So at the police officer level that that ... that decision could be made?
Kuker/ Police officers don't make detention decisions. They make a decision in many cases on a
new offender, um, whether they think this is an allegation that rises to the level of
detention. They don't make the detention decision. So that's juvenile court services.
Markus/ That's what I'm trying to get at.
Kuker/ Sorry! Yeah.
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Hayek/ And that ... that kind of goes to my ... my observation here, I mean, I ... I see ... um ... you
know, repeated reference to the institutions that are involved here, whether it's juvenile
court system or the Sixth Judicial Correction System or the...
Kuker/ Right.
Hayek/ ...or the prosecutorial arm, which is the County Attorney's office.
Kuker/ Right.
Hayek/ You know, these institutions, and I also see in the set of recommendations repeated
reference to the County should do this or that. Um, and also ... as well as the other
institution that ... that serves everyone, which is the School District. I mean, you know, to
the extent that ... that a local municipality has involvement, it's likely within the Police
Department...
Kuker/ Yep!
Hayek/ ... and probably limited to that for the most part, because it quickly shifts up to a
detention center, uh, and the system, for lack of a better word, um, and ... and so it's... is
this ... is this report being given to those institutions, whether it's the School District, the
County, or the ... or the Sixth Judicial District...
Kuker/ It went to everybody that we interviewed, and ... and we're happy to share it elsewhere.
Uh, Kathy noted that ... there was a reason that we chose to talk about the allegations that
we're making to juvenile court here, and it's because this is the City, um, the City
employees the Police Department, um, the allegation data that we're talking about are
kids that are ... were arrested and referred to juvenile court, and ... and our
recommendation here is we think there's more to talk about with this and ... and that as a
result of that, um, are we sending everybody to juvenile court, um, that we need to? Are
these kids a puff ...a public safety risk, and is there, um, can there be a discussion on a
protocol for what would be best for these kids in this community.
Hayek/ Yeah.
Markus/ And ... and that protocol is at the ... the point of the decision wh ... whether this is going to
detention or whether this is going to ... a referral.
Kuker/ And ... and many, or probably most cases, what happens is I ... I'm a police officer, I arrest
the kid, I don't want her not interested in having `em placed in detention. I'll ... I'll cite
`em. I'll get to a parent, a responsible adult, and I'll make a referral to juvenile court, and
within the next couple of weeks, juvenile court'll see `em and they'll decide what they're
going to do. So ... they're ... they are the front end. They are the gatekeeper onto the
juvenile court system.
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Markus/ So if...you were king for the day, and you wanted to change this so that when ... when
this report gets done in the next ... time it gets done, what would we do to change this so
that it... it started to approximate, uh, the population, in terms of DMC?
Kuker/ I think I'd look at whether there are, um, better alternatives that you've got before, um,
all these kids get sent to juvenile court, and ... and that I would create a standard that I
could use for the types of offenses that should go and if I've got a kid that's been arrested
a number of times, I'm obviously going to ... I'm going to make a referral to juvenile
court or ask for detention, but um ... everybody, I shouldn't say that. Most people, um,
break the law every day. Um, I exceeded the speed limit on the drive over here. So it's
not unusual (laughter) for people to break the law. It's fairly common for young people
to break the law, um, it isn't right. I don't feel good about it, but they do, and um, how
we deal with those different levels of behavior, um, is something that we do control, and
...I think the disparities that you've got on these low level offenses ... are a drag, but
they're something you can do something about.
Hayek/ Okay.
Kuker/ If...I ... I think before we did the data on this, I would have thought we would have had
far more African American felons. Um, what we heard about in interviews were all the
weapons offenses, in this community and elsewhere, that we were gonna see and ... and
there are some and... and a single one is horrifying, but we're not seeing the numbers,
um, that we expected. The... (both talking)
Throgmorton/ ...important re ... report (several talking)
Hayek/ Oh, absolutely!
Throgmorton/ The mess ... the message I'm getting, I ... just to make sure, you know, I don't
know if everybody's hearing the same thing, but the message I'm getting is that we need
to look really carefully in the way in which our city staff exercise their discretion.
Period. With ... with regard to these kinds of, um ... offenses or potential offenses.
Kuker/ I ... it lays, this report actually lays fairly solidly beside your own task force report. Some
of the comments are virtually identical. So ... maybe the other thing I'd want to make
clear, we'll come back. Um, we've been working in this community for a number of
years. Either or ourselves or through a contract provider, and ... and I ... I'm a writer of
reports. I'm a staffer of committees. Um, some reports go places to die. Um, there are a
whole series of recommendations in here. If...maybe our biggest recommendation was
...where could this stuff be housed? Um, we've had some luck with your schools.
They're interested in what we have to say. They've got a work group, um, that's kinda
taken this and run. Um, we're talking to you about the city - related stuff. Some of it is
county - related. Um, you ... if you look at the very beginning of the report, you're a
committee more than any, excuse me — a community more than anybody (mumbled) you
got committees on committees on committees. But (laughter) I ... I think...
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Throgmorton/ Want to join? (laughter)
Kuker/ ...to the extent that, and that's what I do for a living ... I staff committees too. I think to
the extent that some level of accountability can provide it as to where could different
pieces of this report be housed, or the report that you issued as well ... is ... is the best we
can hope for.
Champion/ Was there any way ... I mean, I ... my memory, looking at all these pages and
numbers. Differentiate between the number of contacts between ... that the police have
with minorities versus Caucasians?
Kuker/ Not ... not from our data sets.
Champion/ Okay.
Kuker/ Um...
Champion/ Cause that would be an interesting... that was one of the complaints that you hear
from the minority community is that the contacts are... superficial and unnecessary.
Kuker/ I ... what I would say is ... there's a very limited amount of research that we provided here,
um, in one of the attachments that talks about that. That's not unique. It wasn't unique
to this community. It's not unique nationally, and ... and I ... I think one of the things, um,
that the Chief has made very clear is there is a very practical issue. They get called out to
the neighborhoods where minority folks reside with a greater frequency. So as a law
enforcement agency, what am I going to do about it? I ... I've got to establish a patrol
pattern, and ... and of course one of the considerations is I'll establish that based on
volume. So ... I do feel like it is a catch -22 situation at some level. He made that very
clear. Uh, he's also been real clear on concerns regarding victims and I think that's a big
deal too, and ... and it's a difficult balance and on many of these offenses, um, the best
thing that we could do is ... whatever level of accountability we want to provide, let's do
that and... and get `em to move on. Urn...
Markus/ I have a, just a follow -up kind of question. In terms of, um ... you know, one of the
foundations of police work is the discretion at the street level. I mean, it's ... it's the case
of flattening our organizations, putting people on the street to make those decisions, but it
sounds to me like, um, you're advocating for some guidance...
Kuker/ Yep!
Markus/ ... in terms of that discretion. Have you seen any good policies, uh, around the country
as you've worked on these projects that ... that spell out that kind of discretionary decision
policy on... on certain of... especially in this case, in the case of misdemeanors, and... and
it seems like you're saying that that's an area where we can really, uh, make a difference
in the ... the DMC and that's something we have control over. Have you seen any...
written statements to how we do that?
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Kuker/ I ... I've got ... I've got a specific example. I will repeat again, I think we've been
woefully unsuccessful. I've been at this 20 years and the successes we have, I could
count on one hand. Um, and ... and this isn't a perfect example, um, but there was a judge
in, um, Fulton ... in Clayton County, Georgia, and um, he found himself on an increasing
basis, um, responding to crimes against justice and authority, and those were
predominantly African American kids. He put in a cooperative agreement, um, they were
coming out of his schools. He put in a cooperative agreement and said, uh, don't throw
me first time offender disorderly conduct kids. Don't make a referral, um, to the court on
those kids. And ... and he established a discipline process within the schools that was
tiered, and um, tried to screen out the lowest level of offenses, and we've done some
poking around in schools ourselves with school discipline data. In school discipline
where kids of color jump out is for the ... the behaviors of defiance and disrespect. So if
you want to find the behavior where kids of color are overrepresented in schools, it's that.
And ... and now if you make it a delinquency, it's disorderly conduct and interference
with official acts. So, I think to the extent that you can spell out specific types of
behavior that you want to deal with in a community, at the community level, that's a
start, um, for this. And, I guess I'd reiterg ... reiterate again what we're not talking about
is weapons offenders and um, drug offenders, urn ... or violent kids. It's these low level
folks.
Hayek/ Okay thank you! We ... we can probably ask many more questions but we've ... we've got
a ... I want to keep us moving here. Um, thank you, Dave and Kathy, for a compelling
report (several talking) and presentation.
Kuker/ Thank you!
Hayek/ Okay! Let's, uh, try to pick up some progress here. Um, next item is residential waste
container storage ordinance. That's IN from the, uh, 18tH, Info Packet from the 18tH
Residential Waste Container Storage Ordinance (IP #4):
Boothroy/ Well I'm back to talk trash with you! (laughter)
Champion/ Yeah!
Boothroy/ Uh... (laughs)
Hayek/ Keep it out of the gutter!
Boothroy/ What's that?
Hayek/ Keep it out of the gutter! (laughter)
Boothroy/ I will! (laughter) Uh, we deferred it in February because there was a concern about
the ordinance as it was ... as it was crafted and uh, we did go and get information from
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neighborhoods through the neighborhood services area, uh, as I indicated in the memo to
you, the results were mixed. Um, a low turnout, or low volume in terms of responses as
well as, uh, about 50/50 as far as the proposed ordinance. If you recall, the proposed
ordinance was to tighten up what we already have in place to, uh, instead of...have it as a
preference more or less that you have to have your trash containers beside or in the rear
of a building, uh, it would be mandatory, and then if it was not practical, as the ordinance
points out, uh, you could put them in the front of the building as long as they were
screened from public view. And that was ... that was that issue. So what I did in the, after
I looked at the neighborhood, uh, responses, uh, I ... I laid out three options. Uh, since the
responses are somewhat weak, you could do nothing. Uh, you could pass the ordinance
as drafted, or uh, there is a third alternative that, uh, I put together which would be that,
uh ... uh, the uh ... the trash carts and containers could be located in front of the buildings,
as long as they were within a certain distance of the building, or up close to the building.
Whatever that standard ... it's just two feet, but it could be different. Uh, and then, uh,
they would only be required to be screened upon a finding, uh, that they were
contributing a nuisance, uh, like we, uh, had repeated, uh, offenses (coughing, unable to
hear speaker) trash and litter and uh, and uh ... uh (noises on mic) unkempt and it was, you
know, causing a problem for neighboring properties, um, and so at that point, as a part of
the mitigation or the abatement of the nuisance, they would ... they would construct a ... an
enclosure that would not only screen but it would enclose the, uh, debris. So it wouldn't
scatter about the yard or ... or get, um, become a problem. So those are, I think,
essentially and conceptually the three, uh, options, uh ... uh, I still feel that the ... the first
option I wrote is the better option, but uh, I think option 2 also accomplished, um ... um,
very close to what, uh, the first one that came to you. Uh, if you were to choose any of
these three options... well, option ... I guess option, uh, the third option, uh, which is the
new option, I would take it back to the, uh, at least to the Northside Neighborhood, uh,
they have a board meeting coming up, uh, the first part of May and uh, would have an
opportunity to go to that board meeting and talk about, uh ... uh, a different option than
the ... than they have already supported as far as the, uh, proposed ordinance. So ... I guess
we're sort of looking for direction, or I'm looking for direction.
Dickens/ Was there anything... said about just doing area- specific?
Boothroy/ Well...
Dickens/ Certain neighborhoods because a lot of neighborhoods, it sounds like didn't either care
or didn't want it done.
Champion/ Don't have a problem!
Dickens/ Right.
Boothroy/ Um ... I ... we didn't have the names on that, but a number of those were from different
neighborhoods and ... and some neigh ... some of the neighborhoods do care, and I just got
an email today from a neighborhood on the west side saying they would like the
ordinance as proposed adopted, because on their cul -de -sac where they have zero lot line
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houses, uh, the storage of, uh, trash containers in the front has become a real problem.
But, um, so I don't think you can necessarily make that generalization. Uh, I think the,
what option 3 does is allows you to make it ... to make that call on a complaint basis. Uh,
I don't ... we don't see any complaints coming in about, uh ... uh ... trash containers in a lot
of areas, uh, if they're tucked up against the house. And ... well maintained.
Dickens / Right.
Boothroy/ But in situations where, uh, there ... you know, either out close to the sidewalk or
they're, you know, overflowing and they have a lot of, uh, debris around `em and stuff
like that, then we begin to have problems.
Dobyns/ Is that language specific enough, Doug? I understand two feet from the house. I
understand that, but urn ... unkempt. Or not well maintained.
Boothroy/ Well I (both talking) well what I would do is ... is, if you want to go with option 3
(both talking) I would come back with language.
Dobyns/ But you think you can get the language (both talking)
Boothroy/ Oh, yeah, I think ... I think a litter, uh, debris, uh ... uh, different things like that I think,
you know, we can pick that out of the solid waste ordinance. I don't ... I don't think that's
...that would be an issue.
Champion/ I still kind of like the first version with exceptions for people where that just isn't
practical. I think it ... I think it is a problem in some neighborhoods and frankly we have a
lot of young people living in our neighborhood and it's not a problem. I mean, I don't
see trash cans in the front yard. Uh, I think it ... but it's easy. Houses are pretty well
separated. It's easy to get the trash can to the side or the back of the house. Um...
Payne/ I actually drove around your neighborhood and there is somebody that leaves their trash
can in the front in ... in, on your street.
Champion/ Really? All the time? I've never noticed...
Payne/ Every time I've driven by! (several talking and laughing) It's just that you don't notice
(both talking) It's not trashy looking, you know, so they keep it cleaned up. It's not like
the lid's hanging open and there's garbage hangin' out of it! So...
Mims/ That's why my preference is to go with option 3. I ... I just felt that the last one was, went
too far to do that across the entire city, when you've got different kind of lot
configurations, corner lots.
Champion/ (both talking) sometimes it's difficult.
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Mims/ ...and people with ... whether it's physical infirmities so it's easier for them to have it...
you know, right in the front of the house but, you know, up close to the house or
whatever and they can just wheel it out. It's already on the concrete, etc. Um, and do it
then more on a true nuisance basis. I'm much more comfortable doing that than doing a
blanket ordinance across the entire community that just gets awfully restrictive it seems.
Champion/ Well I think ... I think you're right about that, and I also think that's easier to enforce,
the number 3. It wouldn't be as many complaints.
Mims/ I just think enforcing people to screen something ... is ... is also a cost issue for a lot of
people.
Payne/ Well and especially like you were saying, the cul -de -sac or zero lot lines, you're really
close to start with, and then to have to put screening up. You might ... the only thing you
might have is your garage door. It might not be able to put screening because the only
thing there's your garage door.
Hayek/ I got ... I gotta say, I don't have faith in our ability to ... to impose screening that results in
attractive (several talking and laughing) you see these handy -man to ... to death, uh, rental
units and ... and I have this idea that, you know, we say okay well, you can't do t his, you
can't do that, so you're going to have to screen. You end up with this, you know, $1.99 a
square foot Menard's latticework on a post and it looks like heck! (several talking)
Boothroy/ We ... we would not allow, the screening would have to be approved by the City. It'd
have to be something that would hold (several talking) up, I mean ... you can't put a...
Hayek/ ...design standard and an arg ... a counter- argument, well it's too expensive. I mean...
Dobyns/ Doesn't option 3...
Boothroy/ Well we wouldn't allow sheets, for example, to be staked up around it. That kind of
stuff would have to be (several talking)
Dobyns/ But option 3 also would require, eventually option 3 would have codified language that
it requires screening for some. (several agreeing) Isn't that what I understand?
Mims/ Yeah, if it becomes a nuisance.
Boothroy/ If it becomes a nuisance.
Dobyns/ But some people...
Boothroy/ It only ... it would only be required if it becomes a nuisance. You know, we already
require screening, uh, for, uh, trash dumpsters for new developments, so it's not ... it's
not, you know, we already have a process by which we look at these things. So, it's not
out of, uh, out of our area of, uh, experience. Um, I think that ... you know, if you want to
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go with option 3, like I said, the Northside has a meeting I think scheduled, uh, first part
of May so it would be an opportunity to get some feedback on... on what that might look
like before I bring it back to you.
Dobyns/ I concur with option 3.
Throgmorton/ It seems to me part of the challenge has to do with the design of the buildings and
the way they're laid out, especially in the old ... older neighborhoods...
Boothroy/ Right.
Throgmorton/ ...core neighborhoods, and those containers are not easy to move around. I mean,
I'm a ... reasonably strong guy, but I have to move mine around and through two gates
and down some steps and stuff like that, and I can imagine how it can be much more
difficult for, uh, for some other people. It... it's not necessarily an easy thing.
Hayek/ If people want to go with 3 that's ... I'm fine trying it. I just don't...
Payne/ I would pick nothing, but I will concede to option 3. (laughs)
Dobyns/ What do you (mumbled)
Hayek/ Oh I just ... I, you know, I look at these photos that ... that were ... were provided, and
thank you for ... for doing that. I frankly see as many nuisance issues from my
perspective with, in terms of the look of these houses from the curb (laughter) you know,
totally unrelated to ... to the trashcans. It's not to say that the ... the trashcans aren't an
issue. It just goes to my on ... my ongoing concern about how we, the standards we hold
rental properties, uh, to.
Bramel/ If we go with 3, who's monitoring this necessarily? Is this the, this whole idea...
Boothroy/ Complaint basis.
Bramel/ ...complaint basis, right, okay.
Boothroy/ Because the only time the, uh, the enclosure would be required would be if, uh, if it
became a nuisance or ... or, and most of those nuisances come to us from citizen
complaints.
Bramel/ But as long as this ... as long as this, uh, receptacle is within ... two feet (several talking)
two feet of the building.
Boothroy/ Whatever we come...
Hayek/ Of any wall, front or side. (several talking)
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Boothroy/ That's correct. If...what it ... what it's talking about is getting it out of the yard, away
from the front sidewalk, and back against the house.
Hayek/ And is that ... is that a problem...
Boothroy/ That's part of the problem that they've complained about on the northside is that some
of `em are just left in the middle of the yard. Cause it's close to the curb. So if you get
behind the sidewalk (laughs) you don't have as far to roll it, and I ... and that's not the
intent (laughter) You know, what ... what you have here is ... of these two options are
options that ... that, uh, some communities do it as originally proposed. Some do it as... it
wasn't something I just, you know, created out of, uh, out of my mind. It was, you see
these examples on the inter, uh, on the internet from other cities. Um, and some cities
even go far enough to require in new construction that garages in townhouse units be
designed such that they have avenues to get these ... these things to the street, uh, so that
you don't get too many in a row and you can't... so it all depends, they're all over, but
these trash carts have created a whole new, uh, dimension in terms of how we store them
and where we put them and all that stuff. (several talking)
Bramel/ I have a ... (several talking) Sorry to bring this up. I have a bad dimension here for you
then. Um, if... if this is (several talking) if we're going to talk about nuisance and uh,
debris, trash, whatnot, um, and when we look at, uh, multi - family housing residents that
are, uh, say down here, um ... what's that going to do to them, because they're... they,
those are multi - family. They have a ... a receptacle, usually in the back by the (both
talking)
Boothroy/Dumpster?
Bramel/ Dumpster, exactly right. Um, but there's still trash and litter still finds its way to the
front of the (both talking)
Boothroy/ Well, we follow up on complaints, uh, and require cleanup. Sometimes, uh ... um, we
require, we have required more frequent, uh, delivery, uh, or pickup of dumpsters.
Sometimes they've only done it once a week, and in some cases they need to go twice.
Sometimes they've had to get bigger dumpsters so that they can hold the ... the debris.
Um ... uh, you know, we ... we contact the property owner and they, and we get them to
get out there and ... and clean up the messes as soon as possible. So, uh, we do have a, it's
very noticeable certain times of the year, when move -in, move -out, and we tolerate that,
uh, because we...it...it happens. It's like the passing of a season (laughs)
Mims/ Well hopefully our new app will make it a lot easier in terms of (both talking)
Boothroy/ I think as far as...
Mims/ ...making those complaints in a timely manner so that you can really document what's
happening.
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Boothroy/ Yeah. So what am I hearing? Am I ... am I going to talk to the neighborhood (several
talking) first part of May to see whether they, what the feedback is going to be on option
3 or not?
Hayek/ I gue ... I guess so, although I ... I'm ... I don't know why we wouldn't run that past other
neighborhood groups, as well.
Boothroy/ (both talking) I'm just ... I ... they have a meeting already scheduled and that's... that's
all I'm saying, uh ... I, you know, we could certainly do that, but I ... I would... there's an
opportunity since I think it's going to be scheduled, maybe May 9th, I'm not sure about
that (someone speaking away from mic) Why not be there?
Hayek/ Sure!
Mims/ Sure.
Hayek/ Okay.
Boothroy/ Okay?
Hayek/ You know what, before we move on to the ... thanks by the way!
Boothroy/ Oh, I'm done, okay, thank you.
Council Appointments:
Hayek/ Before we move on to the (mumbled) let's do our quick, uh, appointments to HCDC an
Planning and zoning. I forgot to get those out of the way on the agenda. So if you go
back to your formal...
Karr/ 18f and g.
Hayek/ Yep. What page?
Mims/ Uh, Jodie Theobald...
Hayek/ Page 442 of our, uh ... (several talking) Uh, so the first one's HCDC, which uh ... there
are, uh, there is one spot and there are four applicants.
Throgmorton/ I ... I know Christine Ralston, uh, pretty darn well. I think she'd be terrific on
Housing & Community Development. She has a terrific background. She ... she's been
in town now nine years, I think, according to her application. Uh, she's an adjunct
professor at the University, has learned a lot about ... all sorts of stuff related to this. So,
anyhow, I think she'd be terrific.
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Hayek/ I'd be okay with that. My two were going to be her and that David Hacker individual.
Um...
Mims/ Yeah. Likewise. And I don't know any of `em personally so I don't know what other
people's thoughts were.
Hayek/ Any other thoughts?
Dickens/ If you have a recommendation, that sounds good.
Dobyns/ Yeah, that's fine with me.
Hayek/ Christine Ralston.
Champion/ Yeah!
Mims/ On the other one I would recommend Jodie Theobald.
Dobyns/ I would too.
Mims/ I've known Jodie for a long time. She's been in the town a long time, and I think really
knows the community well.
Throgmorton/ Yeah, sounds good.
Payne/ Which one is that?
Dobyns/ That's Planning and Zoning.
Mims/ P &Z.
Payne/ I thought that had a gender balance, and we only...
Dobyns/ That's over with now. That's past.
Payne/ That's not what it said on our ... (several talking)
Dobyns/ Marian?
Payne/ A gender balance male?
Karr/ The gender balance ended April 8 th
Payne/ Oh, okay, so it was just a couple of days ago.
Throgmorton/ We're now imbalanced.
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Dickens/ Two weeks.
Hayek/ Okay. Thanks for that.
Karr/ You can ... you certainly... that's up to you, but the balance, the 90 days is past.
Payne/ Okay!
Hayek/ Um... okay, can we get a very quick storm update. (several talking)
Throgmorton/ Who's going to talk about their basement first?
Payne/ I didn't get any water, did you?
Champion/ Mine was dry. (several talking)
Brick Sidewalk Repair (05):
Fosse/ I have, uh, roughly two 10- minute items here, and there are some other people here for the
brick, uh, sidewalks, so if you'd like we can switch those items in case one gets bumped
until after the formal. Would you like to do that? (several talking)
Hayek/ Should we move on to ... you're saying you're going to yield the floor to the brick
discussion?
Fosse/ Yes! (laughter)
Hayek/ Okay!
Fosse/ Yes I will, cause there are others here for that. Uh, we ... we have three properties in the...
the Brown Street Historic District that are in ... that have sidewalks that are in need of
repairs, specifically brick sidewalks, and the Historic Preservation Commission is ... is,
has expressed an interest in preserving those sidewalks for their historic character and
what they add to the neighborhood, and has requested that the City participate in the
additional cost of the ... the preservation of those sidewalks. So what we want to do
tonight is talk a little bit about that and assess your interest in that and ... and the methods
by which we might go about, uh, doing it. Uh, as nearly as we can determine there are
only four properties left in town that still have the brick sidewalks, and... and they're all
in this one -block area. Three of those have been marked for repair, uh, this one here and
then two over here, if I remember correctly. And ... and they really have three options
available to `em. One is to remove the brick sidewalks and replace `em with concrete.
Uh, otherwise we could look at... at... (can't hear) building a new base and setting bed
and then putting those same bricks back, keeping in mind that, uh, when you do that with
existing bricks, you're not going to have enough bricks to put back because some of `em
are broken, and also because of the wear on those bricks, they're going to be of different
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heights, and you're going to end up with a little bit of a rough surface, and a good
example of that is ... is Dewey Street.
Champion/ Oh is that it?
Fosse/ We've talked about a few weeks ago, is that ... is, as you mix all those bricks up and
reassemble them, they're all a different thickness and ... and you can end up with a ... a
fairly rough surface, especially on a roadway. Now the other option is to remove the
bricks, uh, prepare a setting bed, and ... and put in a new brick surface, uh, hopefully
something that ... that's going to capture that essence of what they're looking for, uh, for
the historic character. Uh, all totaled on these three properties there's roughly a thousand
square feet of sidewalk that needs to be fixed. And we don't do a lot of, uh, sidewalk like
this in brick. Most of the brick work we do is downtown. It's confined. That's a real
trick with a sidewalk is it's an unconfined brick surface. You gotta figure out a way to
hold that in there. Um ... the ... the cost differential is going to be ... we're estimating
somewhere between $6 and $12 per square foot. So we're looking at...at roughly $6,000
to $12,000 of a cost differential at which the ... that we would participate. So, uh, our
recommendation is that if...if we are interested in ... in pursuing that, and ... and
contributing to the cost, we'll look at different sources, such as a PIN grant and uh, if we
do this, we ... we do think that the work should be bid on a private basis. We're not in a
position to take on a project like this this summer on top of the other things that we have
going on, and we would require the property owners to get a couple bids, one for simple
concrete replacement. The other for a, uh, option 2 or 3 that's outlined in the ... in the
memo there, the, using the existing brick or using a new brick, and then upon completion
and inspection to make sure that it does meet our standards, we could write a check for
that ... that cost differential. And the other part of this is we want to make sure that that
it's clear that we're doing this as an exception to our design standards specific for these
historic cases, and not a change in our design standards (several talking) Tom had shared
with me that in one of his previous communities, uh, people in new neighborhoods were
wanting to put in some brick sidewalks and he ended up with a strange blend of sidewalk
materials. It ... it's kind of hard to manage. Couple of you had asked to ... to see some
pictures of...of what's out there, so I've included a few here, and you know, when you
stand back at a ... at a distance, it doesn't look too bad, but you ... you get up close
and ... and compare it to the standards that we hold regular sidewalks to, all you see is
pretty rough and here's an idea of the... one of the areas where the brick still remains.
Um, using a straight edge just to help you in ... (mumbled) uh, what we're having out
there. This is a good example of where, you know, when you take these bricks out here,
they're not in any condition that they're going to go back in. So you've got to find bricks
of similar vintage and size and color that's going to go in there. And again, even in the
areas that look pretty good, when you put a straight -edge on it, you see that there's dips
and humps and ... and things that make traversing that difficult for people who ... who
don't walk very well. And ... I think that's it for ... yeah, that's the last of my pictures.
Questions?
Dobyns/ Rick, when I take a look at the map, I think this is a low enough traffic area that I don't
think a lot of people see these bricks and I don't think it heightens the historical stature,
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you know, this part of the city all that much, but it's a high enough traffic area that I
really have concerns about the walkability and the security of these bricks. Um ... I mean,
taking a look at that, can you comment on would the restoration of the bricks, um, what
the, over the five to ten years compared to (coughing, unable to hear speaker) walk, what
the walkability would be and the unevenness?
Fosse/ Well it all goes back to ... to two things. How good a base you prepare, and then the
technique that you use to confine the bricks, because, uh, they tend to come apart at the
sides, kind of like when you take a... ear of field corn, you know, they all stick together
until you get a little few of the ears out, or a few of the kernels out, and then they ... the
rest of `em come out easily.
Dobyns/ I'm sure the craftsmanship would be excellent, uh, consistent with City standards, but
even with that, um, how safe would it be over 10 to 15 years, the normal life of a
sidewalk.
Fosse/ I think ... I think done correctly, it...it can be a durable and safe product. Uh, reusing the
existing bricks, it, uh, might be hard to make it as smooth as you would like it to be
though.
Champion/ So but these sidewalks are ho ... are how old? Do you have any idea? Are they the
original sidewalks?
Fosse/ (several speaking) ...guess on that? (unable to hear person away from mic)
Champion/ Yeah, so they've lasted 100 years. I've already replaced part of my sidewalk twice
and I've lived at my house for 35 years. Although I think it's quite durable if it's done
well.
Hayek/ You've been there longer than that, Connie. I know (several talking) Yep!
Champion/ Time goes by fast.
Throgmorton/ So...
Fosse/ It's possible that ... they'd look like this for the last 80 years, I don't know. But...
Throgmorton/ Picking up on, uh, Connie's, uh, question ... you know, I ... I live like two and a half
blocks away from there and I've talked with Amy about it and have walked over there
and taken photographs and all that. So a couple questions come to mind. One is ... what
standard did you apply when determining that some parts of the sidewalk need repair and
others don't? In other words, where Charlie and Heather live up in the northwest... edge
of, you know, the little segment at the top.
Fosse/ Uh huh.
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Hayek/ Shimek house?
Throgmorton/ Apparently they're not going to be required to repair their sidewalk, if I heard you
correctly.
Fosse/ Yes.
Throgmorton/ So, what standards did you apply when there are no standards?
Fosse/ Well it's the same standards that we apply to, um, just regular concrete sidewalks and that
has to do with a... a trip, three - quarter inch or one -inch trip hazard, and then dips, sorry, I
haven't committed all of these to memory, but there are ... there are specifics of how
much dip you have at a certain distance.
Dilkes/ We, I mean, we have very definite standards that we apply, and the reason we do (both
talking)
Throgmorton/ ...brick sidewalks. We have very definite standards for concrete sidewalks.
Dilkes/ No ... no, but ... we're talking distance. And ... and the reason we do that is be ... is for
liability reasons.
Fosse/ So whether it's brick or asphalt or concrete, it's the same standards that apply. It's just
typically it's concrete.
Throgmorton/ ... Sol ...it's hard for me to believe that those bricks have shifted dramatically
within the past... couple or three or four or five years, if they've been there for a hundred.
So ... if...it seems like this is coming pretty much out of the blue. The second thing has to
do with trees. And ... a ... a substantial amount of the roughage appears to be caused by
roots from the trees. Now I know if the trees on the ... the street -side of the sidewalk, the
City would have an increased responsibility for. Uh, if it's on the homeowner's side, it'd
be the other way around. Have you taken that into account?
Fosse/ That's one of the things we'll work with ... with the City Forester on when ... when it goes
back in to try to do it in a way that's going to last longer with the ... with the tree roots
there. Sometimes you end up bringing that up. One of the things you'll note is on most
of the brick sidewalk here is it's ... it's down low and recessed.
Throgmorton/ Yeah, sure, definitely is.
Fruin/ Rick, you might want to just mention your 10 -year inspection cycle so they ... they know
how you handle that.
Fosse / Right, and ... and that goes back to your question earlier is that, uh, we have a ... that, the
entire city split into 10 segments and so each tenth is inspected once every 10 years. And
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um ... I really can't speak to why this hasn't come up in previous years, but what is clear
is that ... it doesn't meet the standards today. So we felt obligated to ... to point that out.
Markus/ Rick, in terms of, uh, when you replace these ... these bricks, what percentage do you
think you'd retain and what percentage would be new bricks?
Fosse/ That's a tough guess. I ... I would guess 70/30, roughly, and ... and that may vary by
property. You know, that one stretch that I showed you back a few slides, you know,
here is ... is in worse condition than others. You're not going to retain many of those
bricks.
Markus/ So the ... I guess the point, um, is from the way I see it is ... the request is for historic
purposes, but we're not replacing the ... the sidewalks with historic bricks. They're
coming from some other place.
Fosse/ Yes, and there are vendors of historic bricks. So if (laughter) you wanted to work hard
enough (laughter, several talking) you can find that, or you should be able to find
something close. (several talking)
Markus/ This is a character saving thing (several talking)
Payne/ They cost more at the $12 ... and the $6 end probably to have the historic bricks.
Fosse/ Yes, probably.
Hayek/ Well let me ... let's ... can I ... we're running out of time here. Let ... let me, uh, kind of tell
you where I am. I ... I've been pushing for years for us to expand our brick streets
funding and ... and be more aggressive about that, and I think we're at a point where we're
making better progress in that department. Some mixed feelings about this because of
the ... the limited nature of it. I think I'm open to it, if it's ... if we can find PIN funding or
something else, you know, that ... because it is a neighborhood attribute. We do dedicate
dollars to our neighborhoods for a variety of things, some more ephemeral than others,
and certainly an investment in something that has durability of decades, you know, I
think has a return on investment for us, but ... beyond like a ... a PIN or other grant type
source, I'd have some hesitation.
Champion/ I do too!
Payne/ I think it's kind of contradictory as Tom was saying to ... take out historic brick and put in
new brick to retain a character. (both talking)
Hayek/ I'm not even sure that's... that's what would be desired. Uh, you know what I mean?
Payne/ Yah, I mean, I'm sure there's... there is ... there's definitely character there, don't ... this
has character, but I'm ... think that new brick wouldn't have the same character.
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Champion/ I don't ... I don't know. I'm a real historic preservationist, but I think ... little bit of
sidewalk (mumbled) neighborhood... doesn't really appeal to me. I mean, I think if all
the sidewalks were brick, I'd be (several talking) I mean, I have fought for historic
preservation for years and years...
Dobyns/ But this isn't it.
Champion/ This is not it! Um, but I'm willing, if we can get a PIN grant to help them repair
their sidewalks, I'm totally willing to go with that, but I'm not going to be willing to put
City money and otherwise I'm going to want (both talking)
Hayek/ It is City money, but we allocate it (both talking)
Champion/ I know, but it's really neighborhood money. It's money that's allocated to
neighborhoods.
Mims/ Yeah, I would agree. I think that's a reasonable way to approach it.
Hayek/ How do you feel about that, Jim?
Throgmorton/ Well I ... I'd be curious to know how the neighborhood association thinks about
this. I know it's of more interest and concern for the particular property owners, but I'd
still be interested in knowing what the association thinks in terms of, you know, whether
they (several talking) their quality of the neighborhood.
Fosse/ Bob, do you have a feel for that?
Throgmorton/ (mumbled)
Miklo/ I don't. I can't speak for the neighborhood. Um, but uh, we can certainly but it in front
of them at a neighborhood meeting.
Hayek/ ...yeah.
Miklo/ I would address the issue of historic preservation (several talking) the Chair of the
Commission is here. Uh, there are cases where the Historic Preservation Commission is
dealing with an older building and there's worn out material and they allow new
replacement material that matches, that recreates the, uh, the ... the historic character. So
if it was determined that the bricks were beyond salvaging, uh, finding a brick that was a
similar color or, and texture, would not be out of line with what historic preservation
practices are.
Hayek/ Okay. Well, maybe then ... you should circle back to a minimum the neighborhood
association in question (several agreeing ) is that what I'm hearing from people?
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Fosse/ Okay! Do you want it to come back to you or if they're in favor and we can round up a
PIN grant...
Champion/ (mumbled) come back to (mumbled)
Mims/ Yeah, that sounds good to me.
Fosse/ So the PIN option?
Hayek/ Yeah, and there may be other grant sources that have nothing to do with the City, that...
that could be available. I don't know.
Fosse/ Okay. We will do that. Would you like to do the, uh, flood summary now or would you
like to do that later?
Hayek/ Well, let's ... let's see here.
Champion/ ... got time.
Hayek/ Um ... is there anything on the Info Packet anyone needs to talk about? We've hit some
of the items. Kind of skipping around here but...
Throgmorton/ Not from me.
Hayek/ Okay. (several responding) Okay, so we can ... do that (several talking) We really need
to break in about seven minutes.
Fosse/ Seven? (laughter) Okay, I'll do the lightening round and ... and see just how (several
talking and laughing)
Hayek/ ...staff needs to get us ... get this dismantled and...
Storm Update:
Fosse / Right! Okay, uh, what I want to do is just share with you some visuals about what we
experienced last week, and um, talk a little bit about the specific challenges we faced,
and ... and some of the questions that we'll face afterwards, a request afterwards. Uh, we
really can't hang a handle on this storm, like a 50 -year event or 100 -year event, but I can
tell you what was different about it. And ... and that is the way in which the ... the front
passed. My finger's Iowa City, typically the storm fronts come through perpendicular to
their direction, and the storms come and go, and this one went like this. So what we had
was a ... a series of thunderstorms that lasted all day, and that's what conspired to ... to
cause us the grief that it did. Uh, when it starts raining like that we send our engineers
out the door to the best classroom for hydraulics and (several talking and laughing) yeah,
the ... here's what happens with the trash cans. Uh, we saw a fair amount of street
flooding. We ... we saw a little bit of flooding that got up on a few structures out there,
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uh, our construction sites, of course, were flooded out, uh, what we saw in our
neighborhoods is our neighborhood detention basins were ... were functioning very well
and doing the job in which they were intended to do, as well as our regional storm water
basins. This is the, uh, south branch dam at Scott Park. You can see the ... the dog park
back in there (several talking) holding back many acre feet of water that normally would
be going down Ralston Creek, and ... and flowing through town. Uh, this is a shot of
Creekside Park which is downstream from that, one of the beneficiaries of that, uh, but
even with the basin, we still had flooding in ... in the park, and what I want to do now is
shift to a flood plain map view of this, and that picture was taken right here, looking into
Creekside Park and you can see the flood plain boundaries. So you would expect that
this area in here would flood with some regularity and indeed that's ... that' [s what we see
in that area there. And this ... this flood plain map takes into account the benefits of the
...of the basins. Uh, as far as peak flood flows, this is a shot of the Burlington Street
bridge. Uh, it did not get over the Burlington Street bridge ... which overtopped twice last
year. So that's... that's interesting that the difference between storms and ... and how they
react differently. Uh, Dubuque Street did flood. Actually twice. On Wednesday it
flooded, caused by the locally heavy rains. On Thursday it flooded it because of the
flows in the Iowa River, which eventually the ... the Corps throttled back and ... and
brought it off of the ... off the, uh, street force. Um, what we saw in Ralston Creek is
Ralston Creek performed very well. We had very few obstructions out there and ... and
that's the result of a lot of hard work that we've done in recent years, uh, related to our
use of volunteers, and if you've not had an opportunity already, go to the, uh, storm water
page of the City's web site and take a look at our waterways report. That was posted
about a couple weeks ago, and that talks about our volunteer efforts on how we focus
those on our drainage areas. Carol Sweeting manages that for ... I ... I joke with her that
she's our sixth division head, because of all the effort that she can mobilize through the,
uh, volunteer efforts. So we keep Ralston Creek cleaned out. We took advantage of the
low river levels last year to get at areas that haven't been exposed for a number of years.
Did a lot of cleanups in the Iowa River, and we also took advantage of, uh, Ralston Creek
just being dusty, dry in some locations, to get in with some equipment and clean out
culverts that needed to be cleaned out. So again, if you haven't had a chance to look at
that report, take a look at that. Uh, Thursday morning after the ... the rainstorm, of course
we had the landslide out there by Mayflower Apartments. The University cleaned that
up. We worked with them on getting the mud out of the street and getting that cleaned
up. Uh, I wanted to back up and say that the, you know, by having an all -day rain like
that, what we saw were soils that were saturated to a point that we really haven't seen
since 93, and ... and the problems that you typically have with that is destabilization of the
soils, the landslides like you saw, uh, sewer cave -ins, and then high flows at the waste
water plant. And uh, which we experienced some record high flows down there and
unfortunately it was ... it was very bad timing for us in that we're in the middle of a $55
million improvement project down there, and just like a street where you can't maintain
full street capacity during a construction project, that is true with our waste water plant as
well. You can see this, the aeration train here, and next to it are two trains that are off -
line, uh, because they are being worked on. They're being expanded. Uh, what we saw
coming in was a ... was a peak flow. Uh, at this point it's 54.6 million gallons per day, is
what was measured. It peaked at 57 million gallons per day. We have the ability to treat
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about 17 million gallons per day. So the excess goes into an equalization basin out there
that's stored until things go down, and then you drain this back through the plant and
treat that. Uh, but in this case it was coming in faster than our ability to store that and
when that happens, it goes down this hole here, and then it's blended (laughter) Yeah!
You don't want to go down that. (laughter)
Champion/ Alice in Wonderland! (laughter)
Fosse/ That's blended with the treated waste water and then goes out to the river. Now this is at
the far corner of the basin, so what you have is the benefit of getting all the solids settled
out of there (several talking and laughing) before that happens.
Dickens/ So has that gone down yet?
Fosse/ Yes! Yes. It is going down. It is going down. Uh, the biggest thing we heard from
residents is about flooded basements. A lot of flooded, wet basements out there, which is
probably one of the big contributors to the flows into waste water plant that we saw. Uh,
we have a lot of cleanup to do. There's, uh, one of our parks bridges got pushed six feet
off its foundation. I don't have a picture of that...
Champion/ Oh my gosh!
Fosse/ ...I'll get that soon. Uh, our construction sites really are a mess. We're cleaning up. We
haven't had many sunny, warm days since then to ... to dry things out. Um, including our
Landfill cell that we're trying to rebuild. Now this is what was on fire last year, you
know (laughter) It's a lake now. So timing is ... timing is everything. Uh, problem we
had at the waste water plant is a lot of solids came out of sewers from that drought that
we had and ... and buggered up our (mumbled) which is the first step, uh, have cleaners on
`em, and those were jammed up and you could not get those moving, uh ... and you know,
that ... that, everything piling up was a big problem for us. So 5:00 last Friday night, uh,
we had a crew descend into the (mumbled) sewage there and they worked til about 1:30
Friday... Friday night and were not able to get that freed. The problem was the bolts that
take that apart were under the water levels, and to get down there and work by feel, uh,
and they took a break and finally got it taken apart on Saturday, pulled that out of there,
and one of the things they found in addition to a lot of stuff you'd expect to come out of
sewers was ... was some gravel, and what that tells us is there may be a sewer cave -in out
there that hasn't worked its way to the surface yet. So we're looking for that (mumbled)
sewers we can look for clues for which direction that came from (mumbled) search. Uh,
Saturday morning started out with sending our sanders out. All the water that was
seeping out of the ground going across the streets had frozen over night and we were
having accidents, uh, in the afternoon we sent a truck down to Keokuk for 20,000 sand
bags (mumbled) and uh, what we're finishing up on today was ... was a damage
assessment. Right now we estimate our cost from this storm at about $92,000
and ... that's where we're at.
Champion/ (mumbled)
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Fosse/ Get done in seven minutes or less? (several talking and laughing)
Hayek/ Perfect!
Fosse/ Okay, we'll (mumbled)
Hayek/Hey, just quickly and you know we got some correspondence from (mumbled)
homeowners. Can you just make sure we get staff response (noises on mic)
Fosse/ Yes!
Hayek/ (mumbled) (noises on mic)
Fosse/ We are hearing from a number of homeowners with ideas about flood control and storm
sewer projects that they think would help with wet basements and ... and that's what we
need to do is (mumbled)
Hayek/ Right! (both talking) (mumbled) So, all right. Thanks, Rick.
Fosse/ Thank you!
Meeting Schedule:
Hayek/ Why don't we do this, we've got (mumbled) real quickly if nobody has Council time
(several talking and laughing) Okay. Uh, meeting schedule? (mumbled)
Karr/ It's okay? I heard from one person a possibility in November that was an issue. Want to
just go with it as it and as it gets closer we'll adjust it? (several responding)
Dickens/ (mumbled)
Karr/ Or we ... okay. So we'll go ahead with this and then we can tweak as we get closer, and
adjust it? Okay?
Pending Work Session Topics:
Hayek/ Pending work session topics? (mumbled)
Bramel/ I would be interested in bringing a topic to, uh (mumbled) Um, one of the things I heard
from the, we heard from the UISG forum (mumbled) was, uh (mumbled) change hours at
the end, change hours from 5:00 looking to (mumbled) into the evening. Since we're
looking into that we thought, I thought, uh, that I would bring the Council (mumbled)
setting hours from 2:00 A.M. to 3:00 (mumbled) and the upcoming, uh (mumbled) 24-
hour (mumbled) add that to pending (mumbled)
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Hayek/ Why don't we take that up when we get the parking ... are we going to get...
Bramel /Well, we're looking to ask questions now about what we can change (mumbled)
Hayek/ I know but (mumbled)
Bramel/ We've had discussions (mumbled)
Markus/ You've had discussions with Chris O'Brien?
Bramel/ We've had discussions with (several talking)
Dobyns/ ...at next work session let's talk with the group (mumbled)
Hayek/ That's fine. (mumbled) You want to get something done (mumbled) (several talking)
Karr/ ...being reappointed.
Bramel/ (mumbled) (several talking and laughing)
Hayek/ All right.
Fruin/ We have several items coming forward in ... in both May and June related to parking, so
there'll be ample opportunity (mumbled) (several talking)
Dobyns/ (mumbled)
Upcoming Events /Council Invitations:
Hayek/ Upcoming events, Council invitations? Okay! (noises on mic)
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