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HomeMy WebLinkAbout2014-04-01 TranscriptionApril 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 1 Council Present: Botchway, Dickens, Dobyns, Hayek, Mims, Payne, Throgmorton Staff Present: Markus, Fruin, Long, Morris, Dilkes, Karr, Bockenstedt, Andrew, Yapp, Ralston, O'Brien, Kopping, Clow, Davidson, Moran, Hargadine, Knoche Others Present: Bramel, McCarthy (UISG) Agenda Items• Hayek/ (no recording) ITEM 3c(2) SYCAMORE STREET IMPROVEMENTS, CITY LIMITS TO SOUTH GILBERT STREET, PHASE 1 - RESOLUTION APPROVING, AUTHORIZING AND DIRECTING THE MAYOR TO EXECUTE AND THE CITY CLERK TO ATTEST AN AGREEMENT BY AND BETWEEN THE CITY OF IOWA CITY AND MCCLURE ENGINEERING COMPANY OF NORTH LIBERTY, IOWA TO PROVIDE ENGINEERING CONSULTANT SERVICES FOR SYCAMORE STREET IMPROVEMENTS — CITY LIMITS TO SOUTH GILBERT STREET, PHASE 1 PROJECT. Throgmorton/ (recording starts in mid - sentence) ... services agreement having to do with the Sycamore Street improvements. Hayek/ Uh huh. Throgmorton/ What kind of road do we have in mind? (noises on mic) Hayek/ Rick I guess (several talking) Markus/ Ron stepped out I think. Throgmorton/ I know we have to move ahead. I understand that. Fosse/ Yeah! I believe the concept is to extend the three -lane section further south there. I ... I'd feel more comfortable Ron speaking to that cause he's been workin' on it. Throgmorton/ Yeah, okay, that ... that's pretty much what I was curious about. So, maybe even check with Ron when he comes back in. Fosse/ Okay! Markus/ Pretty confident that's what it is. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 2 ITEM 3e(7) Traffic Engineering Planner: Installation of NO PARKING ANY TIME signs on the west side of Sycamore Street between Lower Muscatine Road and approximately 180 feet south of Highland Avenue. Payne/ I have a question on 3e(7) which is the ... no parking any time sign on Sycamore Street. When will it finally get installed? (laughs) Yapp/ Uh, in the coming weeks. Throgmorton/ There's an `s' at the end of that. Did you hear that? Payne/ Yeah, I did (laughs) Yapp/ It depends on the workload of the sign crew, but in the coming weeks. Payne/ Okay. Like every day people at work ask me when the sign's going to be installed, so... Yapp/ Oh! Payne/ ...I can tell them in the coming weeks. Yapp/ Yes! Payne/ Thank you (laughs) Fosse/ Jim, that was correct. Throgmorton/ Thank you! Hayek/ Other agenda items? Dobyns/ (noises on mic) (mumbled) ...your letter's on this (mumbled) (noises on mic) information packets when we get to the issue about ... is that when you want to talk about the issue about... Hayek/ Municipal infractions? Dobyns/ (mumbled) (both talking) Hayek/ We'll take it up, uh... in a couple of bullet points. Dilkes/ (mumbled) Hayek/ Any other questions on the agenda? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 3 ITEM 5g WESTWINDS SECOND ADDITION — RESOLUTION APPROVING FINAL PLAT. (SUB13- 00021) Dilkes/ Westwinds 5 ... is it 5g, 5g is going to need to be deferred. We're still having discussions about the legal papers. Hayek/ 5g. Should we defer it to the next meeting or indefinitely? Dilkes/ (mumbled) Hayek/ What is that next meeting? 15th9 (several responding) ITEM 3c(1) ANIMAL CARE AND ADOPTION CENTER 2014 - RESOLUTION AWARDING CONTRACT AND AUTHORIZING THE MAYOR TO SIGN AND THE CITY CLERK TO ATTEST A CONTRACT FOR CONSTRUCTION OF THE ANIMAL CARE AND ADOPTION CENTER 2014 PROJECT. Karr/ And then, Mr. Mayor, you also received information regarding 3c(1), the Animal Care and Adoption Center, asking that that be ... um, deferred and a special meeting potentially set. So you'll sep ... separate that from the Consent Calendar and we can talk about it at that time. Unless you'd like to decide ... it's up to you. Hayek/ Why don't we just have somebody move on ... on, uh, the Consent Calendar, move adoption but removing 3c(1). Do you need us to ... to take up a motion to reset it or can you (both talking) Karr/ No, you'll... you'll defer it but I need to know what date and time you're going to be deferring it to. You'll defer it to a date specific. So that's ... was what I was ... I will be able to tell you after I talk to the remaining people about it, but the best time for a special meeting on Monday. I still need to talk to a couple of you. So I'll have that. Mims/ Before the formal. Okay! Board and Commission Appointments: Hayek/ Got it! Anything else? Okay, board and commission appointments. Throgmorton/ How we gonna do this? Hayek/ Let ... well, let's take up the easy ones first. How bout that? Throgmorton/ Okay. Hayek/ The ... cause we've got, uh, Senior Services, obviously, but we've also got board... Library Board of Trustees and Telecomm. I'm going to forget them if we don't do `em now (laughter) Uh... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 4 Throgmorton/ Wanna do the Library Board first, I guess? Hayek/ Sure! Throgmorton/ So, I don't know, I'd suggest David Hamilton, uh, partly because I've known him for a very long time and he was the editor of the Iowa Review for, I don't know, 20 -some odd years over at the University. Professor, uh, in the English Department for a long time. Think he'd be terrific. On the other hand, I don't think I know Dale Kraus, so he might be a very good ... just a terrific appointee as well. Hayek/ I thought Mr. Kraus' application looked pretty good, but I don't have a strong feeling on this, and so if you know, uh, Mr. Hamilton, Professor Hamilton, and recommend him, I'm fine with that. Mims/ I don't know either of `em. Throgmorton/ Yeah, I ... well, I definitely know him and I think very highly (mumbled) highly of him, so... Mims/ Okay. Hayek/ Go with Hamilton? Dickens/ Sounds good! Hayek/ Then the other is the Telecomm Commission. Two vacancies and the two applicants are serving out either a first ... term or an unexpired term. Everybody okay with reappointing? Payne/ Yes! Mims/ Yep! Hayek/ Okay. Okay, so that takes us to the Senior Services Commission. And a ton of applications! Mims/ Well I'll start. Um ... first of all, one of the considerations we had was Iowa City residents versus non -Iowa City residents, and I think the way we did it was saying that if we're going to do a non -Iowa City resident, they had to have basically qualifications above and beyond anything that we had in the Iowa City residents. Personally I didn't find that. I ... I thought we had highly qualified group of applicants, both resident and non - resident. But, not enough in the non - resident to overlook the resident. So I narrowed mine, started by narrowing mine down to the resident group. Then, uh, I would just say, and I know there's people here in the audience that are ... are here because of this issue, um ... I think we had a really, really strong group of applicants. Um, I think it was a very difficult ... it This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 5 was for me, difficult in trying to narrow it down. And then looking at the gender balance we need to get, and looking at whether people are Senior Center Commission members, whether they're Senior Center members, etc., um, and trying to come up with those. So, starting simply on, I guess on the male side, um, doing it by gender, my three top picks were Jay Honohan, um, Hiram Richard Webber, and Joe Younker. And I think that obviously I think Jay's ... to me, Jay speaks ... Jay's nomination speaks for itself and his long, uh, tenure with the Senior Center and on the Commission and knowledge of the Senior Center itself, um, as well as I think of senior issues and ... um, I think the other two bring various, uh, strengths to the Committee, as well, in terms of, um, ethnic diversity, uh, potentially socio- economic diversity, um, just organizational skill sets, etc., that um... I don't know, those ... those were the three that were ... rose to the top for me ... on the male side. Payne/ Mine were the same three. So ... (laughs) Mims / And we didn't even talk! (laughter) Payne/ We didn't even talk! Throgmorton/ I ... I had two ... two of, uh, my three were the same as yours, uh, though I had Hodge Carter instead of Joe Younker, but on the other hand, I don't really know either one of `em, so ... you know, you get kind of trapped in this situation where you're choosing people you don't have personal experience with or knowledge of. Mims/ Right. Hayek/ I know Joe. I think he's got an impeccable reputation. He's younger, which ... and I think there's a place for a younger voice on... on this commission, urn... Dickens/ He's been very active. Hayek/ He's been very active, um... Mims/ He's on the Free Medical Clinic (both talking) Hayek/ Free Lunch or Free Med (both talking) Mims/ Yep! Hayek/ ... um ... and I think his temperament is really well suited to ... something like this. And I'm fine with the other two. Throgmorton/ Wonder if anybody else has opinions. Mims/ Yeah, well those... (mumbled) men out of the way first? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 6 Payne/ You had the same? (several talking) Hayek/ Get the men out of the way first (laughter) Throgmorton/ ...they should be gotten out of the way! (laughter) Botchway/ I agree with, uh, Jim. Um, I had Jay and Hiram, but I think Hodge ... I can't go back to it ... there's... Mims/ ...Blue Zones (both talking) Botchway/ Yeah, he had some... some interesting (several talking) you know, some... a... a different aspect that I don't think any other, uh, candidate had, which I thought was, uh, really interesting and I wanted to hear from him, uh, but if we're just look ... doing, talking about the first three, then I'll leave it at the first three, but ... that was my choices. Hayek/ Okay. Mims/ So are we good with those three then? Hayek/ Well let's tentatively (both talking) on there and... Throgmorton/ Let's see what the other three are, yeah. Hayek/ ... see what the others... Mims/ Um ... on the women's side, again a real mixed, uh, group I think in terms of applicants and things that they bring to the table with their skill set. Um, and some of this was from calls from different people too, as well, um ... I had Mercedes Bern-Klug, um, Mary Gravitt, and Jane Dohrmann. Throgmorton/ Again, two out of three. (laughter) I ... I had Bern-Klug, uh, I also had ... Jane Doman, but I had Karin Franklin as well. (several talking) Botchway/ I didn't really narrow mine down. I just had ... I mean, I did but I had Karin Franklin, Mercedes. I had Ellen Cannon. Um ... just from talking with other people. And then I also had ... Naomi. Throgmorton/ Yeah, former Mayor and Councilwoman. Botchway/ Yeah. Throgmorton/ Yeah. Mims/ I think it's indicative to the strength of the group of candidates that we're kind of all over the page (several talking) a bit in terms of our top three. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 7 Throgmorton/ ... great collection! Mims/ So... Botchway/ For me, I would strongly... Mercedes being one of the women involved. Dickens/ That was on everybody's. Payne/ Yep! Mims/ Yeah, I ... I think so too. Payne/ Yep! Throgmorton/ Does ... does anybody know Jane Dohrmann? Mims/ Personally no. Throgmorton/ Yeah, I ... I don't... Dobyns/ I know everybody! (laughter) Throgmorton/ (several talking) ...impressed with her application and I ... I think you were impressed as well, right? Mims/ Yep! Hayek/ I'd be supportive of her. Payne/ Yeah, I selected her just ... I mean, I don't know her, but based on her application. Mims/ Yeah. And I mean (both talking) Hayek/ Go ahead! Mims/ Candidly, my selection of Mary ... I mean, having read the applications wasn't so much on her application as Mary has been engaged and taking the time to follow City issues and coming and speaking to us, and um, I think she's got some very, uh, unique and interesting ideas. She's got a strong personality. Um, and just again, having diverse opinions on that committee. Payne/ And... she doesn't have a problem saying... Mims/ Mary ... Mary will be very candid (both talking) This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 8 Payne/ ...people on the committee that will have input. Mims/ Yeah. Throgmorton/ Well, Mary's a unique individual. And she certainly has committed time and energy to coming, uh, before us and speaking her mind. I ... I wonder about Ellen Cannon though. Kingsley, do you know her? Botchway/ I do not know her. Dickens/ She was on my list. Botchway/ I do not know her. I just received a call and ... and I'm ... when I'm looking at her resume, I liked the fact that it was other areas, um, that she had done previous work in and that she could bring that type of expertise, you know, to the Iowa City area when talking about this particular focus. I think she was ... she worked as a service coordinator, um, Elderly Services and Bereavement Services Coordinator at Ottumwa Housing Authority in Ottumwa, Iowa. Um, she also worked as a substance abuse, uh, services in the same area. Again, that spoke to me just as far as, you know, she could give a broader aspect, um ... broader perspective to the committee. Throgmorton/ Yeah, for sure part of what I was looking for was, uh, inside knowledge about the Senior Center and experience and understanding of how the Center operates and ... and... and so on, but also outside perspectives, especially from at least one minority, member of...minority member of our community, and preferably, somebody who's also... someone who is lower income, cause I don't know ... a lot of people think there's a pretty strong class bias, in a lot of what our City government does, so be good to have a... an additional perspective there. So that's part of what I was trying to balance out when I was thinking about these things. Hayek/ I'd be fine with Mercedes and Jane. As to the third spot, I mean, I ... I had come up with Mary Gravitt initially, not based on her application, which was probably the shortest one I've seen in six years, um, of looking at these things, but based on... Payne/ Interactions. Hayek/ ...with her over time, and it's a riskier one, urn ... which is why I came up with her; however, Ellen, uh, I think ... has a strong resume. (several responding) Um ... so I'm not real wetted to that third spot. (several talking) Botchway/ What was your second choice? Hayek/ Jane Dohrmann. Botchway/ Jane Dohrmann. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 9 Hayek/ Which I think is what you said. Mims/ Yeah. Payne/ Yep, and... Hayek/ And Jim said. Throgmorton/ Yeah. Payne/ Yeah, I'm with ya on the ... on Bern -Klug and Jane Dohnnann, and ... the third spot is... Mims/ Yeah, I mean, I had had Ellen on top of my list too with Mary, I mean, so it was... Throgmorton/ Um ... I'd suggest we go with her. (several talking) Hayek/ Ellen? Okay. Payne/ Okay. Hayek/ So... Throgmorton/ It's really an outstanding collection of people. (several responding) Dickens/ You can go back over `em and over `em and ... re-read `em and (several responding) Hayek/ Um... Botchway/ Got my little scribble sheet and everything! (laughter) Dickens/ Everybody has! (laughter) Hayek/ So what if we went with those three, and then Honohan, Webber, and ... I'd ... I'd really like to see Mr. Younker on there. I just ... I ... I think he'd be an outstanding person, and in fact, if the Council's, uh, amenable to putting him on there, I would suggest we consider him as a Chair, and I haven't asked him, but... Botchway/ I would ... I mean, I would say Jay. (several talking) Throgmorton/ Yeah, I ... I don't know that I would agree with that, much as I respect Jay and all that. He's sittin' right there in front of me, but ... I ... I think it might be better to have someone else. Hayek/ Yeah, I ... I think Joe ... Joe Younker would ... would present as a ... as a ... as a neutral (several talking) on issues who's trained and ... and considerate and deliberate and knowledgeable, but he's not ... you know, too far on the inside of the Senior Center This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 10 Commission for ... for perception purposes, and he's not on the outside, you know, either. He's ... He's just a ... a strong professional who I think would work well in a collaborative environment. Urn ... and I think ... I think it would diffuse some of the sparks that, uh, that we saw a few weeks ago. Payne/ I'm good with that. Mims/ I'm comfortable. Throgmorton/ Yeah, am ... am I remembering correctly also that Mercedes Bern-Klug is a former, uh, Senior Center Commissioner? Botchway/ Yes. Think I remember that as well. Throgmorton/ Okay, so there's additional inside perspective in that sense, right? Hayek/ You folks okay with this, uh... Mims/ Yep! Hayek/ ... approach? Throgmorton/ Okee doke! Hayek/ Okay! Looks like a good group. Mims/ Okay. Botchway/ I ... I will however just mention that, you know, I know we talked about having that Senior Center influence is important, but making sure that we're talking about all the different services, cause I don't want that committee to be focused on the Senior Center and, you know, recently I just went on a Meals ... Meals on Wheels with Elder Services. That's another organization I think the committee should be looking into. It's the only one I can think of right now, and so (laughs) there's other ones out there, but I just want to make sure that we're ... we're not focused on (both talking) Mims/ ...focus in on elder services. Hayek/ (several responding) ...and you can see that in the application. Some of them thought it was only about the Center (several talking) Botchway/ Yeah, that was what I was... Hayek/ ...and um, that's something... that's... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 11 Dickens/ ...you had Jeff Kellbach that was from Pathways, who's another whole area, the adult daycare and I'm very familiar with Jeff and... Botchway/ Yeah. Dickens/ That's another area that's very important. (several responding) Dobyns/ Well Jeff is representative, Terry, of... all the people who applied, um, they have excellent things to bring. They don't have to be on the committee. Dickens/ No, but they (both talking) Dobyns/ I myself, there are many of these people I will ask the committee to bring in and uh, share advice. Dickens/ Sure. Dobyns/ So just because they're not on the committee doesn't mean they can't participate (both talking) Dickens/ Oh I'm sure they will! (laughter) Throgmorton/ Yeah, excellent suggestion! Payne/ Yeah, I ... that was even in the Senior Center's meeting minutes, that you know, that everybody should go to the meetings cause they are public meetings and provide input. So it's very important to get the public input. Dobyns/ And I ... I just wanted to mention that I think it's, you know, perhaps you can tell from listening, I, um, sometimes Members of Council talk with each other. I've reached out to none of you to make any recommendations, um ... being on this committee. I look forward to serving with the people you've just named. Mims/ Good! Hayek/ So apropos that. We ... did set aside a spot for a Council position, and Rick, to my knowledge, is the only one who volunteered (both talking) Payne/ Showed interest! Hayek/ ...and so, um... Dobyns/ Going ... (laughter). Going (laughter) Mims/ It's gone! (laughter) (unable to hear person away from mic) (laughter) This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 12 Hayek/ Sure, we'll ... we'll announce that later on, but uh ... but announce it now as well. We're going to go with ... with, uh, Rick Dobyns as the ... as the Council appointee, but then for the other six, uh, Jay Honohan, uh, Mr. Rick Webber, Joe Younker, Mercedes Bern -Klug, Jane Dohrmann, and Ellen Cannon. So, um ... that, and we'll vote on that, uh, at the end of our formal session. Okay! Anything else on appointments? Let's go, uh, to the next bullet point, which is the Gateway Project. Continued Discussion of the Gateway Project Design Parameters (L Fosse/ Good evening. Welcome to our fifth work session on the Gateway Project. We have a new computer and projector tonight, so let's hope we get through it without any technical glitches. I hope it goes fine. Uh, with me tonight is pretty much the same crowd as last week, with one exception, and I want to introduce Natalie McCombs. Uh, Natalie will be our bridge designer on this project. And I'll spare you the other introductions because you've met them all before. Uh, what we want to do tonight —we have two objectives this evening. Uh, the first is to do a quick review with the proposed alignment and how it varies from the existing alignment. You all asked some good questions about that last week. We did not have good visual aids to convey that to you. So I'm going to walk you through that tonight, but I'll do that somewhat briskly cause we have a lot to cover tonight, and then the second thing we'll do is facilitate discussion of the design elements to prepare for the, uh, action for the formal meeting. And I was talking with the Mayor earlier today and we decided to break with protocol and we handed out a hard copy of the table here, so that you all can keep score on that. We... somebody suggested that we get you the bingo blotters too (laughter) also mark those as we work our way through. So that introduction, um ... let's go ahead and (several talking) Dickens/ We haven't got those yet. (several talking) Karr/ It's coming! Fosse/ Oh, they're coming? Thank you, Marian! (several talking) It's a little easier if you can write on that. (several talking) And our intent, if we get through everything (several talking) hope to get through tonight is that we'll have a revised version of this available for the formal meeting later this evening. So let's take a look at that alignment, and... and begin by talking about, uh, the things that we have keyed on, uh, as far as what makes Dubuque Street unique, what ... what makes Dubuque Street corridor, uh, what it is today, and...and there're really three things. Uh, that is the view that you have, uh, as you come in to the community (noises in background) uh, both of the natural and the built environment. Also the ... the sweeping curves as they hug against the bluff on the way into town, and then also that large median of varying width. So it's not like Mormon Trek. It's not like ... it's not like Melrose Avenue. It's more of a bifurcation. So, so with that introduction, let's go ahead and ... and step through the corridor, and what you can see here, there's the, uh, existing and proposed, and one of the things that you notice right away in ... in this proposed is that we're straightening it out a little bit there to begin to pull away from the bluff, uh, so that we can reduce that impact on the west side ... excuse me, the east side (noises in background) so let me just back and forth between that a little This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 13 bit. So we're ... we're giving up a little bit of that S -curve there, and going out into it. Now we've got some plan views that show the proposed as gray, and then also the ... the existing shows up as ... as blue lines. So you can see the way the existing alignment begins to curve right away, and this begins to go straighter, and as you move on down to where Taft Speedway comes out, you can see that that southbound lane, that ... as it currently exists, uh, would be pretty much in the middle of the medians. That gives you some measure of how far we are pulling the road away from the bluff at that location. Uh, what you see up here is ... is part of, uh, Ridge Road. That's that blue line up there. Uh, this is a shot near that intersection, where Ridge Road comes down today, over here. The road's going to be higher, so that intersection is moving up the hill to this location, and we're going to align that up with the entrance to the boathouse on the other side. Um, again, you can see the new alignment, and how it's been pulled away from the bluff so the ... the southbound lane on the existing alignment would line up with just about the middle of the median. So you can see that difference there. Um, here's a view looking, uh, south from the ... from the Cliff Apartments. And, uh, as it .... as it is proposed. And here's a shot of a, uh, in front of the Mayflower. Now one of the things you'll notice, in front of the Cliffs and the Mayflower, uh, is that ... that median has been narrowed somewhat, and that's part of pulling it away from the bluff without invading too far in the park on the other side. Uh, but you can see that in front of Mayflower, we're moving it out about 35 feet away from the, uh, the dormitory there, to open up some green space and give them some room in the ... in the front of the ... the dormitory there. Uh, continuing to move on through the corridor, uh, you can see the existing and proposed. And you can look at the way the, um, it's lined up here. You can see that the existing back of curb is about where the face of the sidewalk is proposed to be. So even at the intersection with Park Road, we are able to pull that to the west to help reduce that impact on the other side, on the ... on the east side of the corridor through there. Mims/ Rick, can you just back up. Fosse/ Sure! Mims/ Can you remind us, the ... the yellow dosh ... dash and dots is the original footprint, and the goldenrod solid one is the new footprint, with the lower elevation. Fosse/ That's correct. Thank you for bringing that up. Yep. Mims/ Okay. Fosse/ That's the difference between what was in the, uh, environmental assessment and what is currently projected with what has been proposed. Mims/ Now when you say that is the footprint, are we saying that there would be absolutely no grading or no cutting of trees or not impact beyond that line? Fosse/ That's where the ... the, um, fill will come down and meet the existing grade. Now when they're placing that grade, there will be some disturbance beyond... beyond that line. As This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 14 we proceed in the design, one of the first things we'll do is identify the key trees in that area and identify which ones can be saved and then come up with plans for working around those. Mims/ Yeah, cause it ... as I've driven this the last week, and I've been thinking about all these drawings, it's like I wish there were stakes out there (laughs) to, you know, to really visually be able to see that impact. Um... Fosse/ Uh huh. And ... and someday we'll be...be at that point... Mims / Right. Fosse/ ...but to develop that level of plans is where you really start to rack up your design expenses... Mims/ Sure. Fosse/ ...so if we ... if we can, we hope to land on design elements before we go that far. Mims/ No, I understand! (laughs) Dobyns/ And, Susan, I had a chance to talk before the meeting with, uh, some of the Engineer's Department and they gave me a sense of where the old east sidewalk and the future east sidewalk would be. Mims/ If we have one! Dobyns/ If we have one. Where it would be and a sense of what the impact on the slope would be. So ... I got a pretty good idea (both talking) Botchway/ Just so I'm clear, so we have no way of knowing how far you would encroach into the bluff? Fosse/ Well right now the ... the estimate is this ... the, uh, the yellow line here, the goldenrod line, excuse me! Botchway/ Okay. But that's where you said it would be the infill. So it could creep past that? Fosse/ The ... that's where the fill will end. There'll be a ... some ... you can't ... you can't just draw the line at the ... do you know what I ... I'm not doing a very good job of describing this, but when the equipment is placing the fill, they're going to go beyond that line a little bit. So what we need to do is ... is where we have key trees we want to save, and we do this on other projects, we identify plants. Sometimes we'll put fences around them to keep the equipment out of the drip line and that sort of thing. Does that answer your question? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 15 Botchway/ Yes. Fosse/ Does that help? Okay! Okay. Dickens/ Minimal intrusion basically. Fosse/ We hope so, yeah! Yep! So this is a shot of the ... the Park Road, Dubuque Street intersection, and it shows how they ... they compare, um, again we are moving that ... that east curb line to the west, even as it...it comes up the hill here, and we've got to ... got the match there. The other design constraint that we have in this stretch of road is the driveway that falls just off the ... the bottom of this drawing here, it goes down into that fraternity there. So we ... we need to, uh, taper out our ... our turn lane and narrow back and get on the same alignment by that point. That's one of the constraints that we need to work within. Uh, heading down the, uh, Park Road corridor, you can see the ... the existing and proposed, and uh, this is, you can see ... we're going back near the original bridge alignment, but actually a little bit further south of that, and then angling it somewhat. So when you look at the ... the corridor as a whole, there's... there's been three things that have happened to ... to work to minimize the impact along this east edge of the project. The first is a decision that ... that you all made back in ... in January, and that is to lower the level of protection, cause that reduces the footprint of the project. Uh, the other two things is ... are that we are giving up somewhat of that nice S curve where you come in to Iowa City there, um, and straightening that out a little bit to allow it to begin to pull away from that bluff, and then this ... this bifurcation is becoming a little bit narrower and a little bit more uniform. So, again, that is in efforts to pull away from the east side without intruding too far on the west side. So those changes all make sense? Okay! So with that, let's begin our discussion of the ... of the table that got handed out and everybody's got a copy now. We have 71 boxes on the table, and so we're not going to go through a box -by -box or we would not get through tonight or maybe in two nights. So what I've done is ... is clustered those together and uh ... we will work through them in clusters. Now if we get to a point and you're uncomfortable making a decision because you're in ... your decision's based on something we haven't got to yet, just tell me that and we'll flag that and we'll return to it. So, let's lead off with the, uh, sidewalks and trails. And, oh, I'm sorry, there's a shot of the ... the table and uh, we'll lead off with the ... the sidewalks and trails, and we're gonna ... we're gonna focus first on the Dubuque Street corridor, then the Park Road bridge, and then the Park Road corridor. That's the way we'll break this down. So we'll begin with the Dubuque... Dubuque Street corridor, and begin on the west side and look at the Iowa River Corridor Trail as it, uh, goes along the west side. It's proposed to be 10 -feet wide throughout the entire west side. Uh, do we have agreement on that element? Mims/ It's fine with me. Payne/ Yes. Dickens/ That meets the standards for the ... for the, uh... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 16 Fosse/ For the (mumbled) standards for the trail? Dickens/ Yeah. Fosse/ Yes it does. Yeah. Throgmorton/ I ... I'm okay with that on the west side. Fosse/ Okay! Botchway/ (several talking) I just had a quick question. You were talking about, um, something along the lines of...you had to make sure that something that was being proposed would still go through. What ... what were we talking about? Fosse/ Oh, that has to do with the curb and gutter widths that are proposed... Botchway/ ... okay... Fosse/ ...and then also the lane widths on Park Road ... that are proposed. Botchway/ Okay. Fosse/ But this ... this does fall within the limits. Now, if you think back to some of those up- close shots, one of the things that's different on the corridor trail now is it...it parallels the road more closely, doesn't wonder down into the park, as much as it does not, and that's done so that the trail can benefit from the same level of flood protection as the road. So, we're giving up some of the serendipity of the trail to get that flood protection. Are you all good with that? Throgmorton/ I ... I'm sorry, could you say that again? Fosse/ Okay. So the ... the trail, uh, right now in ... in some areas wonders off into the park a little bit, gets... gets more removed from the roadway. Dickens/ That's lower right now too, isn't it? Fosse/ Yeah, yep! So what we're proposing is is that the ... the new trail will be more parallel to the road and a ... and a more fixed distance from the road, so that it will benefit from that same level of flood protection. So that the trail won't go under water while the ... while the road is still above water. Um... Payne/ You mean the 10 -foot? Fosse/ The 10 -foot one, yep! Yeah. Throgmorton/ Yeah, we hadn't talked about that, had we? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 17 Mims/ No. Hayek/ And so you ... you're talking about in the ... in the vicinity of Terrell Mill and ... the boat house and... Fosse/ Yes! Let me back up and see if I can get to one of those areas that ... okay, so this is an example where the trail would be here, rather than here. And ... let me ... let me ... I want you to just start thinking about that because the ... the decisions that we need to make tonight are ... are related to the design elements. That is like the width of the trail. Now this is more of an aesthetic thing that ... that we ... that doesn't need to be decided before the concept statement is ... is submitted. So I may have gotten ahead of myself a little bit. Hayek/ So you don't really need a ... a decision from us on this. Fosse/ On the alignment tonight. We can talk more about that during the aesthetics part. Throgmorton/ Yeah, I think we need to talk more about that. Fosse/ Okay! Mims/ Yeah, and I'd be interested in elevation difference, how much more protection you're getting... Fosse/ Yep! Mims/ ...because I think there' some aesthetics that ... I like the idea of it going closer to the river. Fosse/ Okay! Hayek/ I agree! Mims/ But... Fosse/ Well we've primed the pump on that, but we ... we've got (laughter) Hayek/ Peaked our interest! (several talking and laughing) Fosse/ Yes. Okay, let's move to the east side now. What we've proposed is a eight -foot sidewalk that goes from ... from here, along Park Road, out to Mayflower, and then a six - foot walk, uh, from Mayflower up to Foster Road. So beginning on the south end of the project, how do you all feel about the eight -foot sidewalk, uh, from Park Road out to Mayflower? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 18 Throgmorton/I do not support that. I ... I think that's a mistake for all sorts of reasons. Uh, I think, uh, the better thing to do on the east side is a ... at the most a four -foot sidewalk, like the one that currently exists between Park Road and Kimball. Uh, and maybe parts of the road on north. Extending up to Mayflower. I... I walked that yesterday. Every bit of that, and I think it would be a ... a mistake to commit, uh, more space to that east side walkway. Dobyns/ Jim, is your concern the sidewalk or the impact that anything would have on the hillside? I mean if you could have a sidewalk that would not impact any slope issue... I'm just trying to get a sense of what the ... what the negative or ... (both talking) Throgmorton/ Yeah, I'm concerned (both talking) Dobyns/ ...the sidewalk in and of itself? Throgmorton/ I'm concerned about intrusion on property owned by property owners (both talking) Dobyns/ So it's not the sidewalk in and of itself (both talking) Throgmorton/ ...concerned about the aesthetic impacts on the hillside. Dobyns/ Got it! Throgmorton/ And ... and so on. I also think, just to toss this out to prime your pump, I think, uh, it would really be wise to have that, especially that, uh, walkway designed by a landscape architect because there's an opportunity. It looks ... if the property owners are willing, there's an opportunity to have a couple little pocket parks along that walkway on the east side of the road. So just ... just to prime that pump! Fosse/ Uh huh. Okay. Dickens / What's... what's the minimum width for equipment that if the City has to do it? Fosse/ The ... (both talking) roughly six feet. Dickens/ Six feet? Fosse/ Yeah! Yeah, they prefer eight. Mike's here tonight. Am I being accurate? Moran/ (away from mic) Correct. Fosse/ Six is the minimum, eight would be preferred. Hayek/ Now we do maintain (several talking) narrow sidewalks around the community, do we not? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 19 Fosse/ We do. How do we clear that one now, Mike? Do we ... come on up. Dickens/ Well you make me do it up in the north end! (laughs) Throgmorton/ Yeah, me too! (laughter) Moran/ Well ... and you did, thank you! Uh, we clear very few four -foot sidewalks. We do have some around town, but we don't recommend that. We like six foot at the bare minimum. Throgmorton/ Yeah, I ... I think we should not design a sidewalk on the basis of how wide our existing equipment is. That ... that should not be the criterion for us making this particular decision. Botchway/ Is that the only criteria? Moran/ It's the only one we've used right now. Uh, we did put four -foot sidewalks in North Market Square because the neighborhood requested that, but then they also said they would take care of some of those. So that was sort of the trade -off is that we didn't have to go in and ... and do the maintenance of `em. Fosse / And the difference being you used mechanized equipment versus like a push snow blower. Moran/ Correct. Yeah. Fosse/ Okay. Hayek/ But do ... but ... okay, but I think this begs the question, does there necessarily have to be an impact... if... if you use, you know, six foot versus four -foot sidewalks. Does it necessarily follow that there is an impact, or is there space to engineer it ... to avoid that? Fosse/ The... Hayek/ Cause one ... one thing is, you know, not liking the snow spinner things to kick up, you know, dirt and make it ugly, but ... but it's another thing and it's a ... a legitimate concern to be worried about the actual impact, physically, to the side of the bluff. Fosse/ Yep! So what is proposed now is from the back of curb, we would go out eight feet of grass, and then the sidewalk would begin. However wide that is. Be it eight, six feet, four feet. And so that if... if you narrowed the sidewalk up there, you would conceivably have an equal amount of reduced impact of that (mumbled) slope. On... on, going up the hill. Does that make sense? So if you narrow the sidewalk one foot, you move that tow of the slope in one foot. So (both talking) Hayek/ So every foot of reduction is a foot gained? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 20 Fosse/ It's a one - for -one. If you keep that space between the back of the curb and the sidewalk the same, at eight feet, yep. Mims/ And is that eight feet considered kind of a standard safety -wise, comfort-wise when you're talking about 25, 35- mile -an -hour traffic? Fosse/ The eight foot, eight -feet wide is what we use along our arterial streets where we expect a combination of pedestrian and bicycle traffic. Hayek/ But she's talking about the parkway, I believe, between back of the curb and (both talking) Fosse/ Oh, I'm sorry! That! Mims/ Yeah. Fosse/ Typically we go wider than that. That, uh, especially where we have four lanes, which we have here, cause you're plowing two lanes off the one side, so that's a lot of snow to put in that ... that eight foot area. So we're likely to have some spillage onto the sidewalk, and some intrusion into the curb and gutter during winters like we just experienced. Payne/ Well I ... I think that there needs to be a sidewalk in this section on the east side, but I could go between five and six feet. I don't think it needs to be an eight -foot sidewalk. I'm somewhere between either five or six. Throgmorton/ The ... the existing walk is four feet, the one in front of Dr. Colby's property. Uh, and it's quite ample for walkers. So it seems to me we don't need to be designing a walkway that will serve both bicyclists and walkers on both sides of the street. Payne/ And ... and my thought, Jim, is ... that the east side of the street, I ... I'm thinking of safety of people trying to cross the street in front of Mayflower. If we can encourage them to walk down the east side and cross at the light, we've improved safety for pedestrians. Throgmorton/ Right, but there's another solution to that problem. Payne/ Well I'm not for that solution, so I don't consider it (laughter) So that's where I'm coming from, is encourage ... I mean, I think if you have a four -foot sidewalk, people are less likely to walk in groups on a sidewalk like that and, you know, those people coming from Mayflower typically walking in groups. So that's why I was going with the five or six foot. Throgmorton/ Maybe we can't answer this question without answering the other question. Dickens/ With the crossing light at ... in front of Mayflower. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 21 Throgmorton/ Yeah. Yeah. Fosse/ You all want to circle back to this one? Dobyns/ Yeah I think because we need to talk about the actual (mumbled) road too. At this point. Cause that does impact, um, how comfort ... how comfortable (both talking) Fosse/ Okay! Dobyns/ ...people might be with (both talking) Fosse/ We will circle back here. Now let's continue along that ... that east side, and now we're talking about, uh, moving on north from Mayflower to Ridge Road, and then from there to Foster Road. What is currently proposed is a six -foot sidewalk in that stretch. Dobyns/ I would like to eliminate entirely that sidewalk. The reason being is I would provide, um, I agree with the concern about ... I do, wouldn't want bikers to, um, sort of impact pedestrians, on any proposed east sidewalk. So I'd prefer that a biker cross at the, uh, signal at Park Road onto the more ample... Mims/ At Foster you mean? Dobyns/ ...west side sidewalk, um, and so if you create a continuous, uh, sidewalk strip all the way from Park, all the way to Foster, I think it'll encourage biking traffic that I would rather discourage. So they don't fight with pedestrians coming down from Mayflower. So I would, um, and ... and propose it would ... in addition to you moving the entire road westward, I think that also will have a lot less impact on properties, River Road coming down. Dickens/ Would you go to the Cliffs Apartments or stop? Dobyns/ I think I would go to Cliffs. Mims/ Yeah. Dobyns/ And let Clif...and give Cliffs, uh, but not from Cliff to River Road. Fosse/ I see a fair amount of nodding there. Mims/ I would agree, and ... and I think ... I know we had the discussion last time that eventually B'Jaysville road is going to go through and, you know, coming back later and wanting to do in -fill but ... but I'm with Rick on this. I think if you've got a good signalized intersection there at Foster, you're encouraging that bike traffic to get... go either from the east side to the west or west to east, whichever it is, but if you have that continuous sidewalk on the east side, there's no incentive for them to go to the west side, um, even though it is a bit wider. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 22 Dobyns/ And Jaysville will be when it's connected to Prairie du Chien will be busy, but they would cross to get to City Park (several responding) to get to downtown. Mims/ And if you have just a wider trail there anyways, hopefully that ... you get that mentality going that way, and again, uh, helping to minimize the impact on private property and the bluffs on the east side. Throgmorton/ Agree! Payne/ Agree! Dickens/ Do you know how many ... how many feet it is from the Cliffs Apartments to Ridge Road? Is it a big section or... Fosse / Anybody wing that? Dickens/ Just a `pert near! (laughter) (several talking) Fosse/ (away from mic) How many? (several talking in background) 20 to 25 feet is what Joe's estimating. Dobyns/ That's a rod. (laughter) Fosse/ That's very good! (laughter and several talking) Dobyns/ I'm from Minnesota! Yeah! (several talking) Dickens / Ridge Road really doesn't have any sidewalk on it now. Fosse/ But there are pedestrians on Ridge Road. We did hear that at the ... at the meetings. Dickens/ Okay. Fosse/ Yep. Yes, sir? Botchway/ I tend to disagree with the question because ... so granted we're eliminating the need for bikers to go down the east side, but what about any type of pedestrian walkway from Mayflower to B'Jaysville? We're not ... we're just talking about no sidewalk at all right there? Mims / Right. So they'd have to cross (several talking) Botchway/ So you'd have to cross, and then cross again at the cross ... I mean, at the Mayflower crosswalk? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 23 Mims/ Yep. Botchway/ So I guess... Payne/ Well people ... (both talking) To me, people that are walking in this corridor, not students that are walking to class cause they're probably walking south, but people that are truly walking in this corridor, would chose to walk on the river side because it's prettier. So they're already going to be over there! (laughter) Bramel/ The same argument goes for bikers though. I mean (both talking) Payne / Right. And they should (both talking) Right, they... Bramel/ ...I would be incentivized to ride on a 10 -foot (both talking) Payne / Right, exactly! Bramel/ ...rather than a six -foot one. If there's ... if there's going to be people traveling on the east side, if we had one as staff is proposing, then I ... I would ride on the (coughing, unable to hear speaker) because it's nicer and bigger. Payne/ Right. Right. Bramel/ Cause I don't want to have, to run into people on that six -foot, and if we take away that six -foot, then we're just going to push more pedestrian onto the 10 -foot which sure, it's fine enough, but I ... I, frankly, I know a lot of, um, I know a lot of grad students; I know a lot of students; I know a lot of people in general, good friends, um, who are not students who live up, uh, up in the B'J ... B'Jaysville Lane area that would utilize that and they want that. I don't know if anyone of them are here tonight, but I've talked to a lot of `em at least. Um... Throgmorton/ Sorry, they want what? Bramel/ They ... they do want a sidewalk on that east side. They don't have one. Where we have those diamonds, obviously, but they would ... they would utilize one on the east side. Dobyns/ Then why would they ... cause they don't want to cross to the west side at all? They would continue (both talking) down the east side all the way (both talking) Bramel/ ...most direct route (several talking) Mims/ Actually it's not! I mean, when you look at the shortest point, it's actually going to be shorter for them to cross Dubuque at Foster and be on the west sidewalk than on the east sidewalk. I mean technically it's going to be a shorter distance (laughs) This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 24 Payne/ Are ... are they going to Mayflower to catch the bus? Or are they going into campus or into town? Bramel/ No, they're... they're walking and riding. They're not necessarily going to Mayflower at all. (both talking) Payne/ Okay, so it... Bramel/ The destination for these people over here is not Mayflower by any means. Payne/ Okay! So ... so to me it just makes more sense to get on the other side of the road. Throgmorton/ Me too. Payne/ On the ... on the east ... on the west side! Bramel/ ...have a choice though (mumbled) Payne / Right, right! (mumbled) Dobyns/ Well, and I recognize that, but that's not a whole lot of people, and then there are compelling historic land and property owner (both talking) Botchway/ Well, if that's the case ... then why were we even talking about any type of, uh, signalization for the cross -walk at Mayflower, cause now you've eliminated anybody, I mean, going across that way. Presumably! Throgmorton/ (several talking) Well we haven't gotten to that yet. Botchway/ Well, no, I mean, but I'm just ... I'm trying to figure out (both talking) Payne/ I think they tie together. Dobyns/ Yeah, that's a great segue. (laughter) Hayek/ I will say this though, I mean, we're... we're... listen, my primary objective sidewalk - wise is to get out to Mayflower and that area, okay? Fosse/ Uh huh, Mayflower and Cliffs. Hayek/ Yeah. But ... but, I mean, I think you can make the argument that that connectivity on through to B'Jaysville, uh, is ... is relevant, and it's in an area where we happen to have, from my perspective, more land to play with. You know, could... couldn't we shift ... that ...that's where the... there's... there's the greatest distance between the roadway and the river. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 25 Fosse/ We are very tight where we go by Joe's garage. And at that location we're proposing to bring it all the way out to the back of the curb at that spot. So we won't have a ... eight- foot parkway in that short stretch there. Botchway/ So if we eliminate the sidewalk ... on the east side, it won't affect Joe's garage? Fosse/ The ... right, right. There'd be no impact from the sidewalk on that. So the ... the retaining wall along Joe's garage would be smaller. Hayek/ Okay, but ... but let... Fosse/ Am I being accurate on that? Hayek/ (several talking) Let me suggest one thing, I mean, we need to be acutely aware of... of impacts to private property and I... and I hope that the product we come up with is sensitive to that in the aggregate, but ... but if there is ... if there is one garage affected, you know, I mean, I have to weigh that against the greater good and ... and it may be that a sidewalk does make sense in the ... in the broader sense, um... Dickens/ If it encourages more walking and... Payne/ But if those people's destination is ... downtown anyway, or out in the country to ... to ride their bike, wouldn't we want to encourage them to be on the river side? Not the east side? Throgmorton/ I think so. It's a wider sidewalk. Botchway/ And in the event there's flooding, there'd be no, I mean ... there could be no sidewalk or any walkway. We wouldn't be able to walk from B'Jaysville, I mean, I'm not assuming. For... if there's any flooding, and I kind of vaguely remember how flooding occurred on that side. I mean, you wouldn't... basically there wouldn't be any walkway for me to get all the way from the east side from B'Jaysville, if we didn't have a sidewalk there. If we're proposing not to have a sidewalk there, and there was flooding that kind of encroached onto the other sidewalk, from the west side, we wouldn't be any type of way for me to get from B'Jaysville to downtown. Fosse/ Currently both the sidewalks are proposed at the same elevation. Botchway/ Okay. Fosse/ Now if we make a decision to take the other one out into the park, then that vulnerability exists. Bramel/ If we do put it out in the park, it'll flood and we won't have something from B'Jaysville Lane to Mayflower, is what you're saying. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 26 Fosse/ Correct! Bramel/ Thank you. Payne/ So where are we? Hayek/ Well it sounds like there's a majority, slim majority, that there would want to stop the sidewalk at the Cliffs. Throgmorton/ Sounds that way to me. Payne/ Yep. Fosse/ Okay. Botchway/ I will say, I mean, it's kind of a balance. So... so if the next question that we're moving to the signalization of Mayflower, then... Fosse/ That's ... yes. We ... that is our next question. Botchway/ Okay, so let's go... Fosse/ Before we go there I want to ask, it seems like an obvious question, but I want to be clear on this. So if we're not putting sidewalk in that stretch, we do not grade to put a sidewalk in at a later date. Correct? Cause that ... that's where the savings would come, as far as impact. Throgmorton/ Uh huh. Fosse/ Okay. Dobyns/ Commitment. Commitment. (laughs) Hayek/ (several talking) Fosse/ So moving on to the, uh, the crosswalk at Mayflower. Uh, what is proposed now is, uh, leaving that as it is today, a non - signalized crosswalk, and with the sidewalk on the ... on the, uh, east side going south from there, uh, it...it puts that at ... postured very well to continue as a non - signalized crosswalk. That's our recommendation. Botchway/ I totally agree! Payne/ Me too! Throgmorton/ I ... I don't. I think it should be signalized. Uh, it should be signalized, in my judgment at least, to do two things. To enhance the safety, uh, for anybody who would This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 27 be crossing the street to get to the other side, and there are lots of good reasons to go to the other side. Walk straight out from Mayflower. It's unsafe the way it is now, and it's unsafe partly because there's no signalization and partly because the speed limit's 35 miles an hour. I think the speed limit should be 25 at that ... at that spot, and I think it should be signalized. That would enhance the safety and make it much more likely that people would actually drive at the speed limit. Botchway/ Well, initially I think this is unfair, cause Jim added an extra point (laughter and several talking) but... but... but from that standpoint... Throgmorton/ Oh, I meant to mention that too! Botchway/ From that standpoint I actually disagree because we're advocating for eliminating the sidewalk and asking people, or at least on the east side, we talked about previously, and telling people to cross on the other side. Why can't we do the exact same thing for Mayflower residents? We're telling them to use the east side cross... crosswalk, and then come across at Park, the Dubuque and Park Road intersection. (several talking) Dobyns/ I ... I agree. Payne/ ... agree with that. Throgmorton/ I ... I'm not following you. I'm sorry, I'm slow (both talking) Botchway/ I guess I'm saying from a Mayf...Mayflower perspective, I guess I was trying to do the balancing act that I'm having in my head. If we're eliminating the eastside sidewalk and saying that for anybody coming from B'Jaysville, from a logical standpoint, coming from B'Jaysville would have to cross from Dubuque and Foster Road. Why wouldn't the same type of logic talk to ... or speak to us, making the same divi ... decision for the Mayflower residents crossing at Park and uh, Dubuque Street? Throgmorton/ Well because right now, if we don't install a signal. If they want to cross Dubuque Street, what they would have to do, from Mayflower — a 1,000 residents — what they would have to do is go down to Park Road, cross and come over, or go up to Foster Road, cross and go over. If they want to get to the other side. Payne/ No ... only ... only if they want to get to the other side along the river, but if they want to get to the other side to get to campus, Park Road makes sense. Throgmorton/ (both talking) ...exactly. I'm talking about getting to the other side to be on the other side (laughs) you know. Bramel/ I mean that's... that's where we have our park and our skate park and everything else, frankly, and if (several talking) and if someone walks out of Mayflower, and they want to go to B'Jaysville Lane or they want to go to Foster Road, then they have to cross. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 28 Payne / And I'm... Bramel/ (both talking) ... walk down... Dobyns/ ...have to be careful. Payne/ And I'm with Jim on that, if we can get the speed limit reduced, that will make it safer, but for most of the traffic walking into town and campus, we should encourage them to walk on the east side. Fosse/ Would you like to hear from our transportation planners ... on this issue? (several talking) Hayek/ ...we've got about four sitting out there right now, and we gotta be... Throgmorton/ Whatever. Mims/ Uh, I'm trying (both talking) Hayek/ ...interest in slowing the speed down (both talking) Mims/ ...trying to figure out if I missed what you said, about ... I mean, there still will be a crosswalk at Mayflower, correct? Fosse/ Yes. Mims/ But we're just talking about whether to signal it or not? (several responding) Okay. So, it's no different than it is right now. Throgmorton/ Correct, and it's unsafe right now. Mims/ So they've gotta dodge traffic going one way, get to median, dodge traffic going the other way, get to the other side. Throgmorton /Right. Mims/ Okay. Payne/ Kingsley, what ... your thought process is exactly my thought process that I had where I came to my ... how I came to my thoughts on how it should be. So, you ... I think you're right on ... it makes perfect sense to me (laughs) Bramel/ Rick... Rick, after talking with a lot of students, um... just about everyone I talked to wanted a sign... signal... to have a signalized crosswalk there, and I understand that. Um, but it... if that's not necessarily feasible, um, because um, I mean, as of right now we have ... it's not signalized but it's mid - block. What is it called when you put in lights into the pavement, um, that we ... you see in, uh... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 29 Dobyns/ Benton, there's something on Benton where there's lights in the road, you mean, or... Bramel/ Yes, there's like ... little, there's either little reflective pieces, um, I imagine they're (mumbled) electronically lit obviously, but they're in the road, so you can see more or less kind of the ... the, for lack of a better term, runway that's going across the road there. Fosse / Uh huh. Bramel/ Um, I think that would be better than nothing, with a yield sign, um, if we can... if.. . Fosse/ John or Kent, one of you two want to speak to this? Yapp/ Uh, John Yapp, Transportation Planner. We did experiment with, uh, and they're called in- pavement crosswalk lights, uh, on Benton Street, uh, about 10 years ago and did a before and after study. And what we found particularly with the, uh, college -age demographic is, uh, a significant amount of the students did not press the button to illuminate the lights, or uh ... press the button and then crossed, uh, as soon as they had a gap in traffic, before they had the walk signal. Bramel/ Yeah, that's true. Yapp/ Uh, and ... ended up removing the lights at the request of the Roosevelt School principal because of...of the concerns with students not using them properly. Bramel/ (mumbled) ...be signalized, right, cause they had to push a button and lights come on? Yapp/ It was a push button activated, in- pavement lights, and the crosswalk. Bramel/ Do we have any sort of in- pavement reflective things that you can put in there, because this (both talking) Yapp/ Oh sure! Bramel/ ... during ... this isn't necessarily during the day. This is more focused on at night or whatnot, and something that you would see ... you'd have a reflective surface (both talking) Yapp/ I think there are some other, uh, methods of warning signs and a... and a more reflective crosswalk that would be more visible at night that ... the designers can look into. Bramel/ I think that would be (mumbled) signalization isn't the way to go, I would say at least some sort of alert, visual alert, coming in the form of reflective surface or something would ... would work better. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 30 Throgmorton/ Yeah, I'd say Alec raises a really good point, as maybe... because if a majority of us conclude we don't want a light there, surely there are good steps that our... our very smart staff and consultants could advise us about, to make that crosswalk much, much safer than it is right now. Dobyns/ Or does it ... beckon them? To cross at a place you would prefer not to incentivize, when we're preferring that they just turn left and (both talking) Throgmorton/ There's no way they're going to run all the way down to Park ... Park Road, or up to Foster Road, in order to simply ... to get to the other side. They will go straight across the street. Dobyns/ A certain portion, yes. Payne / And if they're going to the skate park, it doesn't make sense to go way out of your way to come back. Throgmorton/ Sure! Payne/ That ... I ... I get that. Hayek/ Well, I ... I think you're right that there is not interest in putting a traffic light in front of the Mayflower, but I would suggest that there's interest in doing something, you know... Dickens/ Speed calming. Hayek/ ... sensible and... and safety, uh, minded on that mid -block cross, and we don't have to decide that this evening, but I assume staff could come back to us, you know, with some ideas... Fosse/ Okay! Hayek/ ...for that. Um, now, Jim, you mentioned the speed limit issue and I've talked to couple, at least a couple of you and ... and I ... I sense some interest in moving the transition from 35 to 25 a little north of where it, of the Kimball Road cut -off basically. Fosse/ Uh huh. Hayek/ And Rick, I talked to you about that this afternoon. Maybe we jump into that a little bit. Fosse/ Yeah, so we can talk about that right now, cause we were just going to transition into the ... into the roadway elements. The last thing on the sidewalk we talked about a little bit with Susan there is that eight foot between the back of the curb and the sidewalk, and I think we have good alignment on that, so we good there? (mumbled) Okay! So let's move to the roadway elements. So we're going to be talking about, uh, the number of travel lanes in each direction. I think that's an easy one. Two lanes north and two lanes This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 31 south. We all good on that? (several responding and laughing) Okay! We've got lane widths... Throgmorton/ You know, I come from Louisville, Kentucky, uh, and east ... Barstown Road has that situation where one of the lanes changes from northbound to southbound, depending on the time of day. Fosse/ Uh huh. Throgmorton/ And I thought about that as I was coming in (several talking) it's one of the few places in the city, I mean, in the country that does that. Fosse/ Yeah. (several talking) Throgmorton/ ...and I'm not recommending it but... Fosse/ (several talking) If it weren't for the bifurcation, we ... it'd be something we could consider. But the, uh, bifurcation messes that up. Dickens/ Let's skip that! (laughter) Fosse/ So, we're ... we're looking at ... let me run through the roadway recommendations and we'll ... we'll talk about `em all together, cause they are tied together. Uh, we're recommending 12 -foot lane widths, with one and a half foot curb and gutters. The, uh, recommending southbound right turn lane at Park Road. Uh, the speed limits, uh, is what we ... we recommend the same speed limits as they are today, and when you talk about speed limits, you often tie that with design speed. And where that doesn't particularly have a lot of relevance in this project I want to explain, is that your design speed, uh, dictates how sharp your curves can be, how steep your hills can be, and... and basically how wide your lanes are. And in this case, the existing corridor defines the horizontal alignment. Our flood protection defines the vertical alignment, and our lane width in a large part is ... is defined, at least our recommendations are defined by the multi -modal aspects of the corridor, that is the bus and bicycle traffic that we have out there. So with that introduction, let's do a free - for -all on the, uh, on the roadway. Mims/ I'd ... oh, go ahead! Payne/ Yeah, I was just going to, uh, say that my idea is, or my proposal would be, to move the 25- mile - per -hour speed limit someplace north of Mayflower where it makes sense to transition, so that people really are going 25 -ish when they get to the crosswalk, w... wherever that would be, and at the same time that transition takes place, to narrow the inside lanes to 11. The lanes to 11 -feet, but then we had talked about the gutter, making it two and a half instead of one and a half. So that you gain some footage there. Fosse/ Yes, and ... and for your all benefit, uh, Michelle talked to me earlier about recommending 11 -foot lanes and I said that, uh, my recommendation would be that if... if you start down This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 32 that path, then for, uh, what we recommend is the curb and gutter section go from 18- inches to two and a half feet, which is the standard curb and gutter section, and what that would do is the net width of that outside lane, where you buses and your bicycles are, would remain the same as the proposal, but the inside lanes would narrow. So for your corridor, for a four -lane section, it would narrow by two feet. For a five -lane section it would narrow by three feet. Dobyns/ So it allows buses a little bit more berth for their windows, because they're on the outside... Mims/ The right lane most of the time (several talking) Dobyns/ And plus the whole ... and, Jim, this is relevant cause when you're thinking about impact on the Bella Vista slope... Throgmorton/ Uh huh. Dobyns/ ...um, it narrows the entire road by how much if we did that? Fosse/ (mumbled) five -lane section, it would narrow it by three feet, and the four -lane section would narrow it by two feet. If you did that. Payne /And then if...I mean, we ... I don't think we ever really decided on the width of the sidewalk, but if you reduced it from eight -foot to six foot, there you gain four feet in that (both talking) Dobyns/ Or five, depending on... Payne/ ... four or five feet. Throgmorton/ Uh huh. Payne/ So if they left the... the... the river side where it's designed today and brought the other side in that four or five feet, then would we gain that (several talking) Dobyns/ ...more comfortable with this ... this is why we wanted to come back, cause this is why we're more comfortable with the east sidewalk, because we can do some traffic calming and dieting of the road width... throughout. Throgmorton/ Well I certainly support the idea of...of moving the 25- mile -an -hour speed limit north of Mayflower. I think the ... the clearest demarcation is Foster Road. I ... I can live with something past south of Foster Road, but north of Mayflower. Right, but ... it's gotta be clearly indicated, and I think going to 11 -foot wide lanes makes sense if we ... if we are in fact reducing, uh, the speed to 25. Dobyns/ With a little more gutter. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 33 Throgmorton/ So, I'm on board with that (several talking) Payne/ ...yep, someplace... exactly! Botchway/ I will say as a previous Cambus driver, you're sure you're giving enough spaces for the buses, cause that's a tight fit. (laughter) Fosse/ It is a tight fit. (several talking and laughing) Dobyns/ Drivers like you, Kingsley, there's the gutter! (laughter) You know, that came off the wrong way! (laughter) Fosse/ Now when you move to the inside lanes, that ... that is going to feel tight. Botchway/ Yeah, that's what, yeah, I mean, I don't think for that turn there's much ... you don't have to, you have to make that little median turn to turn around, but that was about it. Fosse/ Uh huh. Okay. So... Dickens/ Has there been any thought, because of the Mayflower the Cambus turns there, is there gonna... could there be an inside turning lane on that median, to pull the bus out... out of the line of traffic. Fosse/ If we do that, we run out of space for the ... the bus to get perpendicular, to wait for the traffic to come by (both talking) Dickens/ There's not enough space for it. Fosse/ Yeah, and if... and if you stay in that turn lane until you have a gap, there's too big a delay... Dickens/ Right. Fosse/ ...that up and get around the (both talking) Botchway/ I usually tried to whip around (laughter) in one fell swoop. (laughter) Throgmorton/ Oh, you're that driver! (laughs) Hayek/ On two wheels (laughter and several talking) Dobyns/ Cambus on two wheels, all right! (laughs) Hayek/ How do you feel about that proposal, to ... to move the, transition from 35 to 25 north into ... at that point go with 11 versus 12 with the gutter, um, expansion? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 34 Fosse/ I... Hayek/ How does staff... Fosse/ We ... we can do that. Now the ... sorry, I'm just trying to think through all the elements of that. Uh, we'll ... we'll need to pick a transition point, and um ... John, is there any ... did you want to speak to anything about speed limit and... and enforceability or... or... silent on that? (laughter) Okay! Um ... because you know the corridor is, I mean, when you look at it, it's really virtually a rural corridor. It's not a dense urban development. It, um, it ... feels like you should be driving 35. Our ... our Dodge Street corridor coming in is posted at 45 and this one, uh, is ... we're proposing 35. So we ... we will be presenting an enforcement challenge for our police officers in that stretch. Throgmorton/ One reason for having narrower lanes though. The narrower... narrower lanes signal to drivers that they need to drive a bit slower than they were driving. Fosse/ Uh huh. Throgmorton/ Right? Fosse/ Okay. So where would you like to begin that transition? Throgmorton/ Foster Road! (several talking) Hayek/ Why don't ... maybe that's an area where you folks can come up with what you would recommend (several talking) The appropriate transition point. Payne/ I think it needs to be ... further north than where the bus turns around. Let's get `em, try to get `em slowed down before that bus has to try to get into the traffic. Mims/ So like around Taft? Payne/ Yeah. Fosse/ Well this, okay this is where the bus merges into traffic. Payne/ No, I mean up there where they actually go from one side of the street to the other. Yeah, right there! Some place... Fosse/ You're talking a ... about out in this area. Payne/ Or ... yeah, Ta... Mims/ Between Taft and (mumbled) This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 35 Dickens/ Between Taft and... Fosse/ Okay. Mims/ Somewhere in there. Fosse/ Reaction from our design staff or things that I'm missing? Okay! So we'll come up with a transition point, somewhere between Taft and Ridge. That sound good? Okay. Dilkes/ Can I just interject for a minute, Rick, since you just looked to your design staff. Um ... just to remind everybody that ... we need to be designing... however you end up that can be supported by a generally accepted design standard, in existence now. So I'm assuming that you all are not going to let them make some design change that would not have, um, support, uh, in some generally recognized design standard or criteria. (several talking) Dobyns/ Isn't that what City staff does? Fosse/ Correct, so let me ... let me explain the details of that (several talking in background) Dilkes/ And I'm ... I'm ... you know I trust that you're doing that. I just want to make sure that we're not... Hayek/ Excellent point for Eleanor to raise. (several talking) Fosse/ So as ... as I said, when you look at design speed, there are three elements there. Horizontal alignment, vertical alignment, lane width. So, because of the corridor, the horizontal and vertical alignment are going to meet our ... our design standards for a higher level of speed limit, and that'll be true all the way into Park Road, just by the virtue of the way it's laid out. Now when we go to the narrower lanes, uh, that will require a design exception approved by the DOT. So we'll submit the narrower lanes on the concept statement, but we're dependent upon approval of the DOT, which gets at the design issues that you're talking about. Dilkes/ But when you make that submission, you believe that you can support it with current design standards. Fosse/ Yes. Dilkes/ Okay. Fosse/ We're good? We're good! Okay. So, circle back to the sidewalk width. And then ... and then we'll come back to the right turn lane. Hayek/ On sidewalks, what we haven't talked about is between Brown and Park. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 36 Fosse/ Okay. Hayek/ Where there is currently no eastside sidewalk, and that's where you've got an incredible slope. Throgmorton/ Yeah, that's ... tough nut to crack. (several talking) Hayek/ Now, I used to live on Brown and a lot of people were always, you know, were ... were clamoring for a way to get down to the bridge on the east side. Fosse/ Uh huh. Hayek/ Um, but I'd like to know how we envision placing a sidewalk between Brown and the bridge. Payne/ Isn't that (mumbled)? It wasn't in the project. Fosse/ That was ... that's in the (several talking and laughing) It was in the environmental assessment. Payne/ Okay! Fosse/ We had that in there. Did we have a retaining wall along there? Yes we did. So we had a retaining wall along that stretch there. Throgmorton/ (mumbled) ... a six -foot sidewalk there in front of that... it's a fraternity house, isn't it? Hayek/ It's a, no, it's a rental. It's an apartment (several talking) Throgmorton/ In front of that apartment building, there'd be a six -foot wide sidewalk and a retaining wall? (several talking) Fosse/ Uh huh. Or whatever width that we land on further down in the corridor. I'd recommend matching it, cause ... I think we have an eight -foot on the other side at that location. Hayek/ I mean, but see that ... that's where the interplay between width and ... and impact retaining wall wise is something that I think is ... is of concern. I mean, this is an area where they mow the lawn by attaching a rope to a lawnmower and... Fosse/ Oh, that's further up the hill too. Yeah! Hayek/ You know (several talking) Um... Dobyns/ So is there a plan to have a sidewalk from Brown to Park on the east side? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 37 Payne/ I don't remember that in anything I looked at. Fosse/ Mark has told me that there's a cross section in at that location. Dobyns/ Cause that's impass ... impassable now! I mean, it is impassable. I... Dickens/ That's up there. Yep. Fosse/ So that's where... showing that retaining wall (unable to hear person speaking away from mic) Throgmorton/ No, that's not it. It's much steeper than that, isn't it? Hayek/ Is that slope reflective of the real, of the slope in fact in front ... that's in front of that apartment building? Seems... Mims/ Not right now. Payne/ This ... this one doesn't make sense because, I mean, we show the retaining wall along the river and that would be north of the bridge, so I'm not following the (unable to hear person speaking away from mic) Fosse/ This ... yeah, this is up the hill from the bridge, and there will... Payne/ I said north, I meant south! Fosse/ (both talking) ...yeah. South of the bridge. Payne/ So between the bridge and that driveway that you were talking about, there will be a retaining wall in there? Fosse/ There'll be, yes! Dobyns/ So, is there a sidewalk between Brown and Park on the east side? Fosse/ Between Brown and Park. Payne/ Looks like it. Fosse/ That's what is proposed. Dobyns/ Okay, all right. Fosse/ Yep. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 38 Throgmorton/ Well I ... I think the only thing I can say about the east side sidewalk has to do with that particular, I mean, cause you all have already decided about the width, uh, my only point would have to do with that particular piece of property, and we haven't ... I'm not conscious of having seen any clear material about how that particular stretch of road, that one block stretch, would be dealt with in terms of the sidewalk. So ... you need to figure out ... figure that out in a way that's not going to just kind of rip that whole hillside apart and ... and really mess up the building and whatever. I mean, you know, so probably ... I would think a narrower sidewalk on that block would be... Fosse/ So when we have the aesthetics discussion, you'd like to see that concept more developed. Hayek/ Or like some, maybe I think what he's saying is some deliberation to the possibility of a narrower sidewalk through that stretch... Fosse/ Uh huh. Hayek/ ...if it makes sense, relative to the impact that a, let's say a six -foot sidewalk would have. (several talking) Again, we need to turn to you guys for that, I think. Dobyns/ Will the east side of Dubuque at that point be where it is as we currently envision with 11 -foot ... four 11 -foot lanes? Fosse/ At the far south end of the project it will, cause we've got to match there. But we're gonna move to the west as we work our way toward the Park Road intersection. Dobyns/ Yeah. There's no trees there but it...it sounds like you'd have to do some ... you'd have to dig into the, uh, but like Matt says, I guess we'll have to see how much you have to dig into the... Fosse/ Uh huh. Dickens/ Into the hill. Dobyns/ But there's no trees there, but ... there's slope. Dickens/ There's barely grass there. Fosse/ Okay. Dobyns/ Barely grass, yeah. Payne/ Did we decide on the side ... the width of the sidewalk? Fosse/ I was just going to ask that. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 39 Payne/ I didn't... Fosse/ Between Park Road and Mayflower. Payne/ Cliff Apartments. Fosse/ Cliffs, yes! We talkin'...five, six? Dobyns/ My understanding is that if there was a, right now you have it planned as an eight -foot sidewalk, in the current exhibit A, on the east side? Is that ... how wide is the sidewalk now? Okay, it's eight foot. So if we, um, so right now, um, and I talked with the City engineers, is that if it continued to be same roadway and the eight foot sidewalk on the east side, where the eastern most edge of the, um, planned sidewalk would be, where the current sidewalk is now. So you have a sense of where the trees are. You know, we've all walked that sidewalk and how close the trees are. Well, if we diet ... do a road diet, and we shrink it down from 12 -foot to 11 -foot, and we ... and ... and by increasing the gutters like Michelle said before, we gain anywhere, um, and if we also shrink it from eight feet down to six feet, we gain four (several talking) to five feet, back that away, and I think especially... and you'll come back and we can talk about a three -to -one slope, which is a tad steeper on the side, um, I feel based on showing where that, um, yellow line was, is that the impact on the current deciduous trees, that'd give a visual and acoustic buffer to the Bella Vista neighborhood. Actually is spared significantly. I think, you know, in construction you can always lose some trees. But that's why I'm comfortable with an eastside sidewalk. Plus for the other reasons I mentioned to get to Mayflower. But because of all that, and because of shrinking the sidewalk back, and because you can do a three -to -one with tree wells, I have this delusion (laughter) that... Throgmorton/ Not uncommon, is it? (laughs) Dobyns/ No, it's not uncommon. We all have our delusion. We probably have, you know, eight different delusions at the table here, but uh, we uh ... that's where I'm looking. Mims/ So you're talking about a six -foot sidewalk? Dobyns/ Six -foot sidewalk and shrinking it down to 11 -feet from 12, plus the addition of the road gutters. Gives us four to five extra feet, that we didn't have... Mims/ Right. Hayek/ Yeah. Dobyns/ ...here. Moving it toward the river. Mims/ Yeah, I can live with that too. It's wider than I thought I would, but I think with the easier maintenance in the future, and the fact that we're gaining some distance by, uh, This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 40 shrinking the lanes, um ... then ... and it's less than what the original drawings were, um, but particularly with what we're gaining with, uh, narrowing the lanes. I can do that. Throgmorton/ I understand the rationale. I personally would prefer four -feet, but I understand the rationale. Dickens/ And have we considered going from the Cliffs all the way to B'Da ... B'Jaysville? How many people... Mims/ No! You lost! (several talking) Dickens/ I'd extend it! But narrow. Hayek/ Okay. Dickens/ Cause some day in the future it's gonna... (several talking) ... come back to haunt us, I think. Fosse/ So a six -foot walk out to the Cliffs (several talking) Got it! Stop at the Cliffs. Right turn lane at Park Road. Payne/ Yes. Dickens/ Absolutely. Fosse/ Yes? Throgmorton/ I think no city has ever become great by ach ... trying to achieve a level of service A. That's not how we be ... how a city becomes great. A city becomes great by, uh, by creating places that are full of beauty and opportunity, that attract people who have a diverse array of talents and skills, and by enabling those diverse people to interact in creative ways. So we received in, uh, in our packet today, and by ... by email, a suggestion for a pedestrian promenade in place of that turn lane. I hope you had a chance to look at that. It came from, uh, some of the Bella Vista residents. It's a brilliant idea! It creates an opportunity to ... to make that a destination point for, uh, for people in... throughout Iowa City, that can walk to it. It just ... try to imagine, uh, something like being on ... on the Seine River in Paris or something like that. So it would create, uh, an opportunity to have an ensemble that consists of a pedestrian promenade right there, uh, a, um, the ... the new Hancher Auditorium, a beautiful new building that you're going to, I mean bridge that you're going to design for us, uh, the park... City Park right across the river, the river itself, instead of just ... trying to achieve level of service A or some number like that. Fosse/ I think our goal is C. Throgmorton/ That's not how you create... that's not how you create great places. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 41 Payne/ Jim, I totally agree with you that the idea was phenomenal, beautiful, and I would love to have something here that is like San Antonio, it's a destination. People go to San Antonio just to go to the Riverwalk. Obviously ours wouldn't be nearly as big as San Antonio, but I mean, that's the idea that you're getting at. But that picture also showed it extending over the river, with pilings into the river. That was the picture. Now obviously you can think about it in different ways (both talking) Throgmorton/ Yeah, but that's not what's being imagined (both talking) Payne / Right! Right, so I think it's a great idea. However, I think we need the turn lane (laughs) so I...if we could accomplish that somehow, but obviously a 10 -foot sidewalk isn't going ... a 10 -foot, uh, a path isn't going to accomplish that, but... Throgmorton/ Okay, so I want to say one other thing that will probably, uh, upset various people. Not here at the table, but ... by ... by making it easier... easier for people to move ... move very quickly, from ... along Dubuque Street coming into town, what we're doing is subsidizing development in North Liberty and Coralville. We've making it much easier for people to live out there, drive in here to work, and drive back out as quickly as they can possibly do it. I ... I don't think that's what we need to be doin' ! Payne/ I think that's a valid point also. I do think it's a valid point. It, I mean, that's where the commuter traffic is. It is a very valid point. Mims/ Can ... can I go back and ask the question again, and I know we've seen it here, but... the wait times on southbound Dubuque Street are primarily for about one hour in the morning on weekday... weekdays, is that ... main... Fosse/ (away from mic) Throgmorton/ Yeah, how long is it really lasting? (mumbled) Ralston/ Yeah, good evening, Kent Ralston, Assistant Transportation Planner. Um, that's correct, Susan. I mean, the ... the bulk of the delay is during the A.M. peak for southbound traffic. Southbound to westbound traffic. Throgmorton/ How long does it really last, Kent? Is it 15 minutes? Half hour? Ralston/ It ... Jim, it varies from day to day, of course, slightly but I would say it's about an hour. I mean, it's roughly for the peak hour then it tapers off on either end. Mims / And we would tend to see that also when there's special events. Once Hancher opens back up, we probably would tend to see that. Ralston/ Correct. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 42 Mims / And I'm sure we tend to see it, at least somewhat, for... football and basketball. Ralston/ Sure, correct. Mims/ People coming in. Ralston/ And ... and something to keep in mind, as well, I think is right now, um, and David Ricketts can ... can answer this further, but right now, some of that parking has been displaced, some of the commuter parking... Mims/ Sure. Ralston/ ...that the University has because of the Hancher development and so forth. Um, which will at some point re- establish. Payne / And ... and to your ... to your point that you made about economic development or ... Jim, if...I think there's a couple things. First of all, making the traffic flow better at ... your idea of increasing the ... the occupants per car from 1.1 to 1.3 even. Throgmorton/ Right. Payne/ I don't think that ... that can happen. People... people want their convenience. I think that'll happen when we have $10... $10 a gallon gas, but not now (laughs) So I... I think that yes, that... you have to get to that point, and I don't think we're there yet. But to the same light, if you don't make it easy for people to travel, would they... say at some point, get off at a different exit, such as 242? Which is Coralville. And drive through Coralville instead of coming through Iowa City, and then as their comfort zone, Coralville instead of Iowa City? So do you hurt ... maybe far - fetched, but do you hurt economics because of that? Throgmorton/ I understand the question. Dickens/ We just don't have that many entrances into Iowa City. From the north. There's just two, basically. Mims/ Right. (several talking) Hayek/ I..I'm okay with ... with slowing the cars down as we've directed staff to do it ... to do. I'm okay with the narrowing of the ... of the lanes in connection with that, and I was okay with ... with, uh, narrowing the width of the sidewalks, on ... on the east side, but I think... I think a right -hand turning lane southbound Dubuque is ... is very important and that's... that's a line in the sand, uh, for me in terms of how we approach this, and I feel the same way about the bridge (mumbled) get to that. Throgmorton/ I ... I think I hear the ... the way the votes are going to line up here, so if...it's worthwhile kinda looking ahead another 10 or 20 years. I ... I, we don't know if really the This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 43 price of gasoline will go up significantly like the `what if $10 a gallon, but what I do know is that, tell me if I'm wrong, uh, Mark, that the consultants have a ... and the staff, have assumed there'll be no real challenges with regard to price of gasoline. No real challenges that would otherwise constrain automotive traffic in the future, out to the year 2040, at least, cause that ... that's the data point used in some of the documentation we got. That's a big assumption. That is a huge assumption! Right? So ... we should just be aware that what ... what we'll be doing now ... might be superseded by some, you know, major price shock or whatever. Botchway/ And I ... and I, I like your point, Jim. I think, uh, I tend to agree with Matt and Michelle also, just from, again, from initially a visitor's standpoint, and also having to drive Dubuque Street and being very upset, I mean, right now I'm sweating because I can think of the fact that I couldn't get to Park Road or Riverside like I wanted to, and it was just an upsetting experience. For me it...it actually plays against the economic development standpoint of getting people here to Iowa City to see what it's all like. I mean, if anything I ... I can't remember who I was talking to. I don't know if I was talking to one of the staff, um, is ... is the situation where you think about whether or not you want to wait that hour, with your family members, with screaming... now I have a son, so a screaming son in the car, and decide whether or not I want to continue on, wait that hour to get to whatever destination, or just, you know, have a movie night at home or go somewhere else or go to Coralville, where it's easier to get, um, into the area, and so I think that ... I ... I agree. For me it's a, like Matt said, it's a line in the sand as well. I mean, we need that right turn lane. Not to say that the promenade wasn't a good idea. I ... I liked the idea and the concept. I just felt like that's ... with the new Hancher, uh, hopefully the free tickets as I'm advertising as well (laughter) um (several talking) yeah! (laughter) We ... we need that right turn lane, I think it ... I think it actually helps our push towards, you know, the Coralville and North Liberty economic development perspective. Mims / And I would say for me ... if this were encroaching more on the bluffs to the east, it would be a line in the sand for me on the other side of this, in that I would not, absolutely would not support the right turn lane. But given the way the alignment is, that ... right turn lane or not, is ... is not going to affect the alignment of the rest of the roadway. I will reluctantly (laughter) reluctantly, um, not be adversarial on the right turn lane. (laughs) (several talking) Dickens/ I ... I tend not to travel over Interstate 80. I go along Dubuque Street. I'll go play golf at 6:00 in the morning. When I get done at 8:00, I get into that traffic, and then if you try to turn onto Kimball, it's backed up all the way up to the interstate. So, I ... I definitely think the turning lane is ... is a ... advantageous. Very much so. Fosse/ So we're good on the turn lane? Is that right? Okay. Dobyns/ Next! Fosse/ With regard to the promenade, just ... just for a moment there. In our first brainstorming session with the University on aesthetics, two things came out. One is perhaps some This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 44 bump -outs on the bridge for a place to enjoy an interface with the river, and another idea was along the ... the lower side of the retaining wall, along here, perhaps putting a lower sidewalk in that's more of an interface with the river there; um, it's one that would be inundated more frequently, but ... a second, lower ... place. And we can ... we'll talk more about that at the, uh, at the aesthetics session. Okay! So, ready to turn the corner and talk about the bridge? Hayek/ Yep, and we've got 15 minutes before we have to disband here. We're obviously not going to complete the work session, but I think we may be able to complete the Gateway (several talking) Fosse/ Okay! Hayek/ ...take up the rest later. Fosse/ Okay, then I'm not going to spend a lot of time looking for slides here. We'll just continue to work with this. So on our Park Road bridge, what we are recommending are 10 -foot sidewalks on both sides, which has been standard on our bridges, river bridges, for a number of years. Everybody good with that? (several responding) Okay. Uh, we are recommending five lanes on the bridge, three eastbound lanes and that includes a dual -left turn lane and a right turn lane, and then two westbound lanes. The, uh, lane widths would be 12 -feet and then we would (coughing, unable to hear speaker) on either side of that, um, between the edge of the outside lane and the barrier rail. To allow at least a little bit for snow storage. Throgmorton/ Why 12 feet? Fosse/ 12 feet, uh, on our bridges, they tend to frost over before the rest of the roads. People, traffic gets a little squirrely on the bridges, uh, we have, uh, a lot of turning traffic going on and off the end of this bridge, uh... it tends to work better to have a little wider lanes on the bridges. Dickens/ Margin of error. Basically. Fosse/ Yeah, when you're driving. Mims/ Can you explain those widths again? What was the two feet that you were talking about, Rick? Fosse/ Oh, so between the edge of the outside lane and the face of the barrier rail, there'd be two feet. Now (both talking) Mims/ And where's the sidewalk from there? Fosse/ Yeah, so (several talking) This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 45 Mims/ ... of the barrier rail. Hayek/ Sidewalks are situated outside of the (both talking) Fosse/ On the other side of the barrier rail. Mims/ Okay. Okay! Fosse/ Yep! So this is the Benton Street bridge, and you can see here, this gets at that curb and gutter we're talking about (several talking) Throgmorton/ Is that you on the left? (laughter) Fosse/ No, no! I'm taking the picture here! So, this ... this particular bridge we have two feet of snow storage. Mims/ Okay. Fosse/ And it works here because we can kind of push this snow off the end of the bridge, and then it piles up at the end of bridges. My concern on our ... this particular bridge is we have crosswalks at both ends of the bridge. So as ... as we push this snow off the end, it's gonna ... it's gonna spill into those crosswalks and that's going to be a ... a bigger problem for us. You know, the fix to that is a wider space on the outside, but then the downside of that is, it's a longer crosswalk, 365 days a years. (several responding) So the balance that we're recommending is the two feet in there. Throgmorton/ So, maybe ... maybe just said this and I didn't hear it, but how much wider would the new bridge be from curb to curb for pedestrians trying to cross the bridge, um, at... at Dubuque Street? Fosse/ Be roughly one lane wider. Uh... Throgmorton/ Okay, so what's that do for pedestrian safety? One lane wider? Fosse/ What we'd do is ... is time the signals for that ... that five -lane crossing. So we ... does that make sense? Dickens/ So minimal effect on how much time you have to get ... you're giving them extra time to get across that extra lane. Fosse/ Yes. Dobyns/ There's a walkway under the bridge now? Fosse/ There will be a walkway under the west end of the bridge. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 46 Dobyns/ Yeah, for cowards. Yeah, okay! Fosse/ For anybody who chooses to do a grade - separated, uh, crossing. Dobyns/ And there is no road on the east side (laughter) so... (laughs) Mims/ No, he's talking on the west end of the bridge, across the river. Dobyns/ Okay, all right. (several talking) Yeah. Fosse/ Yeah, and we've not given up (several talking) crossing under the bridge on the east side, but ... we cannot make any promises at this point. Yep. Mims/ Well I've probably been the biggest advocate of a four -lane bridge, and after our last meeting and the discussion of the difference in price, um, and the fact that we are building a bridge that hopefully's going to be there for 50 plus years. Fosse/ 75 we hope. Mims/ Yeah, well, that's why I say ... yeah (laughs) Um, and the fact that we can't add to it later on, urn ... I'll go with a five -lane bridge. Dobyns/ Wow! You're really... (laughs) Mims/ Yes, I'm biting the bullet! (laughs) I just, you know ... when we're talking about the cost of that bridge, how much is the bridge itself? Fosse/ Natalie? (unable to hear speaker away from mic) $11 to 12 million. Mims/ Yeah, $11 to 12 million and they said it was only... if these figures are right, that was only going to save us about $300,000 to go to four lanes versus five. The cost savings for an infrastructure that's going to be there for 75 years, um, doesn't make sense. When we don't ... we just don't know what the traffic is going to be and ... urn ... and we can do the signalization to get people across the five lanes. I ... I don't like it as well, but I just think from a financial aspect and everything else it ... probably is the thing to do. Throgmorton/ Well, boy, I won't be around 75 years from now but... Mims/ I won't either! (laughs) Throgmorton/ ...I don't really, I personally do not picture conventional automotive traffic on that bridge 75 years now. I ... I picture something else. So (laughs) Payne/ When they replace it in 75 years, they'll take that into account. Dickens/ You can put trees down the middle or something there ... (several talking) This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 47 Throgmorton/ So I ... I'd favor four lanes, uh, as recommended I think in, uh .... scenario 3A from the ... from the consultant. With two left turn lanes, except I think in the short-run, one of those left turn lanes could be ... could be in either direction, given the data that's presented in the report, and then maybe over time if necessary it could be converted to a dedicated left turn lane also. But I ... I would advocate a four lane situation. Hayek/ Rick, uh, I ... well, I'm probably ... I just jumped in probably prematurely. It sounds like there ... there are enough people to support the five -lane approach... Payne/ Yes! Hayek/ ... but ... but let me ask you this. On, in terms of lane widths, if we are in fact going 25- miles -an-hour, well we already were at 25- miles -an -hour on Dubuque in the vicinity of Park bridge on the ... on the east side, and we're 25 as you head west from Park Road bridge. And you've got 11 foot, you know, as Park heads west and you've got 11 foot on Dubuque, north/south in that vicinity, does it make sense to expand to 12 feet on the bridge? Um, because it's a bridge. Do ... do you see what I'm saying? Fosse/ That's ... yes, I see ... I see what you're saying and... Hayek/ Or could we go with 11? Fosse/ Natalie, what's been your experience on ... on other bridges in northern climates? I know our preference is to go something a little wider to give more room for... for cold traffic, but or ... or cold weather traffic. (mumbled) (Natalie)/ Um, the ... most of the bridges that I've designed lately have been in the south. I am working on one in, uh, Little Rock, Arkansas, that do have 11 -foot lanes, but they don't have the snow removal. Um, most of the bridges, uh, DOT or city typically do have 12- foot lanes. But, um, I mean, that's just kind of the pretty much standard for ... for bridges for... (several talking) Hayek/ Okay. I mean, in terms of that crosswalk, it...it would, that's five feet. (several talking) Um, now, listen, I want to get this right cause this is the hardest thing to replace, obviously. Um ... so, but I throw that out there for consideration. Mims/ Sure. Hayek/ Okay. Thanks! Mims/ Thank you. Fosse/ Yep. Something that, um, Melissa reminded me of is we do have that ... that four -foot median in the existing bridge. So the net increase is not a full lane width. You know, in the distance that people travel. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 48 Hayek/ Good point. Mims/ Good point, thank you. Fosse/ Okay. Hayek/ I think we're... Fosse/ Okay, move off the end of the bridge (both talking) so we're going to go five lanes, 12 and two. So looking at Park Road, we've ... we're proposing an eight -foot sidewalk on the south side that will connect in with the eight -foot sidewalk on Riverside Drive. We're proposing a six -foot sidewalk on the north side, that'll go along the park and along Upper City Park. We're proposing that that go right on the back of the curb because of the ... the, all the big oak trees there and the impact on the park, and our folks are right there to maintain that. So are we good with the sidewalk recommendations? Okay. Uh, for lanes, we are proposing, uh, through -lane in each direction at 11 -foot in width. A one and a half foot curb and gutter, and then a 12 -foot center turn lane, from Riverside Drive to the bridge. Are we good with that? Dickens/ That'll do Hancher and Riverside Drive then, all the way... Fosse/ Yes. Yes. And it provides us some event flexibility for dedicating some inbound and outbound lanes. Payne / And will the... intersection at, uh, Riverside Drive... still be just a one -way stop? The Park Road will still go through or will it... Fosse/ Correct. Payne/ It won't be a three -way stop or a four -way stop ... or three -way it would be. Fosse/ We ... we have no plans to change the traffic control at that intersection. Yep. Payne/ Okay. Fosse/ But we do plan to alignment the, uh, take away that Templin and City Park parallel (both talking) Payne/ Thingy. Fosse/ ...dual entrances. Yes. Okay. So we're good with all those? Okay, see if I missed anything on, uh... Dickens/ ...70 of the 71 (laughter) This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 49 Fosse/ Yes. And our design and posted speed would be 25- miles -an -hour on this. (several responding) Okay! Dobyns/ Have we got the elevation of the road figured out yet? (laughter) Fosse/ Yes! Did I miss anything from staff's perspective? Okay. Uh, what we will do is, uh, between meetings we'll go back and ... and we'll mark up one of these for the ... for the, um, formal meeting, and I'll have an overhead or PowerPoint of that ... for that discussion. Mims/ Okay. Fosse/ So any last questions before we wrap up on this topic? Hayek/ No. Thank you, Rick, and (several talking) Do we ... we've got five minutes. Should we, uh... Dickens/ Go through a couple things. Botchway/ Yeah. Dickens/ Information Packet. Come back to the municipal (both talking) Hayek/ Well we're going to have to do the municipal either, you know, we'll have to adjourn back to the work session or just punt to another evening. I don't care. Dobyns/ I'm willing to discuss it after the public. Mims/ Yeah. (several talking) Hayek/ Okay. (several talking) All right, so we'll take that up later this evening. Dobyns/ Is that okay, Alec? I mean, you don't... Bramel/ (mumbled) Dickens/ We don't want to keep you awake too long. Bramel/ (mumbled) (laughter) Information Packets: Hayek/ ...college, you're supposed to! Uh, all right, we only have one Info Packet and that's the, uh, March 27th Dickens/ Discussed a lot of that ... now. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 50 Payne/ All my questions had to do with the ... other thing anyway. Meeting Schedule: Hayek/ Okay! Um, why don't we save Council time. Meeting schedule. Anything on that? Payne/ I'm KXIC tomorrow, if... Mims/ 8:00! Payne/ 8:00! (several talking and laughing) Dickens/ I'm next week! Mims/ Keep reminding everybody! Pending Work Session Topics: Hayek/ Okay. (several talking) Pending work topics, or work session topics? Dickens / And Monday will be (several talking) in between there. Mims/ We need to get through some of those! Payne/ Monday what? Dickens/ We'll decide what time we're meeting. She's gotta still talk to a few. Hayek/ Hey, Marian, do you want to talk about the scheduling of that special meeting? Karr/ Uh ... I need to ... I think a couple Members need to check their schedules at home and we'll ... we'll know between the breaks. Upcoming Events / Council Invitations: Hayek/ Got it! Okay, upcoming events. Throgmorton/ Uh, the first What If Event is going to take place next Tuesday night, uh, at Room A in the Library, Room A, and it has to do with gasoline prices. Botchway/ Are you going? Throgmorton/ Oh yeah! Botchway/ I might join you! I have it on my calendar! This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 51 Throgmorton/ Come on down! Botchway/ All right! Mims/ There's also, um ... (several talking in background) ... see, it was in ... was in our packet, urn ... get this right. Thursday, April 17th ... um, has to do with the Blue Zones, um, Dan Buettner from National Geographic Explorer, 5:00 P.M., um, Sheraton Hotel, um... so, again, April 17th, 5:00 P.M. Information on the Blue Zones. Dickens/ Mission Creek's in full (both talking) Mims/ Oh yeah! Dickens/ (mumbled) Botchway/ And, um, on April 25th, um, they're having a "Ceiling Day." Uh, basically under Iowa law, uh, once you come 18, your juvenile record isn't sealed. It's kind of unlike any other state or actually there's a couple states that do it, but um ... urn ... or excuse me, a couple states that don't do it, but it tends to be, you know, the thought, uh, from movies and other things that you automatically ... they automatically just seal your juvenile record, and so it matters after the fact when you're looking at job applications and other things that that juvenile record isn't sealed and they could possibly look it up, and you know, things that you did in your youth that you weren't exactly proud about with then be judged, um, as an adult as well, and so it's on April 25th. Um, I have information here. Uh, basically from an eligible standpoint, you must be 18 or older; two years have passed since your probation ended; uh, no other convictions of felony, aggravated, or serious misdemeanor, and the charges have to occur in Johnson County. And ... uh, there's a web site, www.ceilingdacom but if anybody wants that information, come up (both talking) Hayek/ ... packet? Botchway/ Yep! Dobyns/ I don't know if (mumbled) on April 12th there's a community summit on sexual assault. Um ... I... Hayek/ We will have staff there, as well, as (both talking) Dobyns/ Yeah, and I plan to be going to that, so... Hayek/ Okay, well, that will leave, uh, the municipal infractions issue and extra Council time, and we'll take that up after the formal. Okay. Let's disband. Thank you, everyone, and we'll see you at the formal at 7:00. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 52 (Work session reconvened following the regular formal meeting and a brief recess.) Review the Ability of the City to Issue Municipal Infractions in Lieu of Certain Criminal Charges (03 of 3/27): Hayek/ Believe we left off with the, uh, municipal infractions issue. Unless Rick is trying to... Dilkes/ Do you want to talk to him about municipal infractions, Rick? (laughter) (unable to hear, away from mic) Go ... go right ahead! (several talking and laughing) Hayek/ Okay, so ... (several talking) Yeah! How do we want to take this up? Is, uh, staff or... Dilkes/ Well I can ... I, you know, you've got my memo. You had Alec's earlier memo and then Alec gave you a memo in your late handouts today, I think responding to my memo. My ...my memo and Tom's memo. So, I can run through ... my memo and hit the high points and kind of touch on a couple of things that Alec raised in his memo this afternoon, and then we can ... Alec can (both talking) what he wants and we (both talking) Bramel/ We can go back and forth. Dilkes/ Okay, so ... the issue is whether to create in addition to, um, certain criminal, um, charges, municipal infractions. Um, and the ... the primary ones that we're talking about are PAULA, possession of alcohol under legal age, and public intoxication. Um, there was a question that was raised earlier about disorderly conduct, and I... as I told you in the memo, the State code prevents us from making that a civil infraction. Um, so we also have ... we wanted to address, because we weren't sure exactly what all ... alcohol charges you wanted to talk about. So we wanted to cover `em all. So we did address under -21, open container, and obstruction, but those ... those account for far fewer than the PAULA and the public intoxication. So ... the first part of the memo simply goes through the basic differences between a simple misdemeanor, a criminal charge, and a municipal infraction, which is a civil charge. Uh, simple misdemeanors can be scheduled or unscheduled. If they're scheduled it means there's a set fine, um, that's imposed whenever someone is found guilty. If they're unscheduled, it means it can be a fine of up to $625, uh, and the judge sets the fine, depending on what the circumstances of the crime are. Um, in a ... in a criminal trial, uh, the defendant is entitled to a jury trial, has Fifth Amendment right to refuse to testify, and the City must prove the violation beyond a reasonable doubt. The City makes a filing of the charge without any showing of, uh ... uh, separate showing of proof of service, i.e., that it's been served on the defendant. Um, and the City files the simple misdemeanor without any upfront payment. The only time the City would pay the court costs on a simple misdemeanor is when we, um ... lose. Um ... generally our ... our conviction rate is about 90 %. So ... so we pay those court costs infrequently. Um, now moving to a municipal infraction, it's a civil charge. Um ... and you... typically we use municipal infractions for violations of the zoning code, the housing code, the building code, and...we don't issue a lot of municipal infractions because it's kind of a last resort. If we can't get compliance, um ... and ... you know, the ... for instance, Housing and Inspection Services, or NDS as they're now called, um ... sends out a lot of notices of This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 53 violation. Often those are corrected and then we don't have to move to a municipal infraction. Urn ... municipal infractions can be set as high as $750 for the first offense and $ 1,000 for subsequent offenses, and those are set by the Council ... when we create the, um, infraction. Uh, court costs are $85. There's no right to a jury trial, uh, the defendant can be required to testify, uh, and we must prove it not beyond a reasonable doubt, but by clear satisfactory and convincing evidence, with a ... which is a lower standard of proof than is a ... than beyond a reasonable doubt. Um ... we ... I addressed in the memo some of the differences from a time in administrative standpoint, urn ... the ... the Police Department has estimated that the issuance of a munic ... municipal infraction would probably take them about twice as long, does require the carrying of a separate... separate form book. The Police currently don't issue municipal infractions that I'm aware of. Um, there are a couple instances where they may be the witness on a municipal infraction, like a municipal infraction for a taxicab violation or a municipal infraction for, um, disorderly house, a civil infraction that we recently, um ... uh ... uh, created. Um, I wanted to make... with... and... and again, we have to pay an upfront filing fee of $85 when we file a municipal infraction. Um, Alec did mention that ... I think in his memo, uh, that because the standard of proof was lower, we wouldn't necessarily be more likely to prevail on the municipal infractions, but there's a difference between getting a judgment and collecting a judgment. Um, just because we get a judgment doesn't mean it's going to be paid, and if it's not paid, we don't recover our $85. Um ... okay ... I'm going to move on to public... public intoxication and PAULAs. Um, the whole issue of expungement, um, as I told you in the memo, PAULAs and ... and public intoxes can be expunged after two years, meaning, um ... removed from, uh, the person's... record, and I'll talk a little bit about the different records that you see. Um ... that is something that is ... is easy for the defendant to do. In fact (noise on mic, difficult to hear speaker) the way the magistrates are doing it now is someone comes in and wants an expungement and they put ... they ask us to tell them if there've been any, um, violations in the intervening two year period and make that report, and then the judge issues the, um, expungement if it's appropriate. With respect to expungement, Iowa Courts Online ... I don't know if any of you have ever used that, um, but if you go to Iowa Courts Online, um, you can put in a name and it will pull up every court proceeding, in the District Court anyway, um, under that name. I think Alec said in his memo that civil, uh, proceedings are not available on Iowa Courts Online and that's just ... it's not accurate. Um, in fact, I went on ... I thought am I nuts, and I went on my computer (laughs) this afternoon and I typed in, you know, a fairly common name and got 200 things ranging from criminal charges to, uh, conservativeships to estates to ... civil, uh, cases, etc. So, um, if we ... if there was a civil infraction, for a public intoxication, we would not ... there would be no ability to expunge that and so it would continue to show up on Iowa Courts Online. Um, the other ... issue is a criminal record, and Alec touched on that a little bit. Um ... the DCI, the Department of Criminal Investigations, will provide you with a criminal record... will provide the public with a... a criminal record for a person, um... at request, and I think payment of a $15 fee, of course... so an employer could get that, for instance. Um... that, the criminal record will not reflect civil charges. Um, the criminal record will not reflect, um, expunged charges. And, um, it often won't ... it won't reflect simple misdemeanors un ... unless there has been, somebody has been actually, um, admitted to the jail and fingerprints have been taken. So many simple misdemeanors will not appear on a DCI This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 54 report. The ... the third type ... type of criminal record or report that you might see, and Sam, convince me if I'm wrong ... or tell me if I'm wrong on any of this, um, the, um, is an NCIC, um, federal record check, and that is not available to the public. That's available only to law enforcement, to prosecutors, to the police. In fact, even in our own operation, um, the police guard that database fearly, um, carefully, um ... they don't just let anybody in the City call `em and ask `em to check the NCIC. They require that it be for law enforcement purposes. Hargadine/ That is correct. Uh, and it comes from the same data that's reported to the DCI. One has to be fingerprinted and booked at a ... at a jail in order for that record to make it to the State records level. Urn ... whenever there's a civil case, there's a judgment, and that typically does stay on record with Iowa Courts Online. We use that when we look up backgrounds for liquor licenses. If there's a judgment, and it has not been satisfied, the person owes a, uh, a creditor, then we use that, um, to ... to recommend denial of their liquor license. So, if someone were to receive one of these and not take care of it, that's not going away, and a lot of times lenders look at that. That's, um, it's almost a slippery slope, allowing this to go on when 10 years down the road they go to apply for a mortgage and credit... creditors check this and when there's an unpaid judgment, that just ...that stays there. Dilkes/ Well and then ... then the other, um, issue that I think Alec raised is this whole issue... issue of when somebody would be compelled to disclose that they had either a criminal charge or a, um, civil charge. The whole issue of, um, whether there's an effect on ... on subsequent employment for, um, for someone who's charged when they're younger. Um ... disclosure is a different issue because it...it depends on what question is being asked by the employer. Employers are getting more and more, um, sophisticated about the questions they ask. Um... so for instance, if it was significant to an employer that a ... a person they were hiring in Iowa City did not have any kind of alcohol infraction, um, they would ask the question in a way that they needed to to get the answer that they ... they needed. For instance, um ... deferred judgments, some ... some higher level offenses can be deferred after you, you know, if there's no conviction entered, if they're, um, if they get through a period of probation, and those deferred judgments are also expunged from the criminal record, um... employers may now ask have you ever been charged with. Um, so the whole issue of disclosure and what you have to disclose to an employer is ... is really ... um, it's kind of up in the air because it's (both talking) ...you have to read the question. I mean, I've told people, you know, they've been asked do I... do I have to disclose a deferred judgment? Well, what's the question? Is the question have you ever been convicted? No. Mims/ Have you been charged? Dilkes/ (both talking) ...ever been charged? Yes. So ... um, okay, so ability to arrest. Um, so ... as... as you saw our recommendation was that for PAULA and public intoxication which account for the majority of these charges that ... that we don't recommend creating a ... a municipal infraction cause we just don't really see the need for one. Um, and because those charges can be expunged after a period of two years fairly simple... simply This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 55 if there are no other violations, except for traffic violations. Um, the other issue with public intoxication is that, um, at least in the experience of...of the lawyers in my office who prosecute, um, public intoxication, in virtually all ... almost all cases the person has drawn attention to themselves when they are charged with a public ... when they are charged with public intoxication. They are doing something already that is disruptive, a danger to themselves, or a danger to other people, and that's why they are approached and then charged with public intoxication. Um, and in almost all situations, there's an arrest made because the person is in, um, is ... is in an unsafe situation. For instance, if they're insisting on getting in car... in a car, the police are not going to let them get in the car and drive. Um ... the ... we actually had this ... the students and Alec and I had a conversation about this whole issue earlier, and I think, um, they were taking the position that no, there's a lot of...lot of public intoxication charges that ... where the person isn't causing any trouble. Um, and I suggested that ... that they look at the ... some video, the videotapes. I don't know what Department of Public Safety's... what they do, um, I only know what our Police Department does, and the prosecutors in my office just rarely come across a public intoxication charge on its own that is not been someone who's drawing their... attention to themselves. The ... the one instance when they ... when the police have said they might ... they often won't ... won't arrest, or they won't arrest, is ... like if they take someone to the hospital. Um ... and then once they get through the hospital proceeding, they feel like it's safe to cite and release. Or, in the ... in ... infrequent situations where ... you know, there ... there may be a group of friends who are sober and can, the police feel comfortable they can get the person home. So I ... I re ... I really challenge the notion that ... that the police are making a bunch of public intoxication arrests, be ... with people who aren't drawing attention to themselves. In fact, the police will tell you if we did that, we would have thousands and thousands and more public intox arrests than we do. Um ... see ... I think, I mean, I think that covers most of my stuff. I've got a few more comments on Alec's, um, latest memo, but you know, if we want to let him go and then I'll ... respond if I need to. Bramel/ Well, yeah, thanks for all that, Eleanor. That, yeah, that's, um (mumbled) my apologies with the, uh, mistake on the Iowa Courts Online. I ... that was not clear to me. Um, but thank you. Um, I ... I guess, um, well, I could do the same thing here. I can ... I can run through this quick and ... and then have some arguments for why I, I mean, I think this is .... might be a good idea. Urn ... want to point out right away that I talked with a lot of UIPD officers and, uh, and I caught a couple of ICPD officers, um, just throughout this whole process of me writing all these things and whatnot, and I talked to them and I got a lot of mixed, um (mumbled) fairly, lot of mixed, uh, opinions on what we should be doing here. Um ... but I'd rather start out with ... I mean, um, in the memo we're saying as of right now we don't really issue civil citations, if I'm not mistaken, um, currently in our code we have, um, if you're ... after-hours is what we would say, over 21...I mean, under 21, um, in a bar past 10, that's... Dilkes/ No, that's only a criminal citation. The only ... what we think of as criminal citation that we've made into a civil infraction is the disorderly, um, house charge. Under 21 in a bar after 10 is only a criminal charge. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 56 Bramel/ We have ... in that, we have in our ... our code, we have two separate charges for it. We have a civil ... a mis ... a municipal infraction it says (mumbled) sections A, B, and D, and then section C we have criminal. The rest of it ... is (both talking) Dilkes/ Oh, under 21, we do ... we do make civil infractions against bar owners when they for instance have not posted the notice appropriately. That's what that's referring to. Not the criminal charge against the individual who's under there. Who's in there. Bramel/ That ... that's a little confusing to me then because when we ... when I looked through the, um, the UIPD arrest log and whatnot, we had charges for, um ... uh, under 21 in a bar that was labeled "/City" and it wasn't, uh, as far as I'm aware, that wasn't a criminal. That was civil, but maybe I'm mistaken (both talking) Dilkes/ No, no, there are ... we, under 21 after 10 is a criminal charge. Bramel/ Okay. Dilkes/ We do not (mumbled) have a municipal infraction for that. Bramel/ Why do we not, may I ask that or do we ... do we... Dilkes/ There's never been any need to. Um, we have it for disorderly house because we recognize the specific need, which was because, um ... the people weren't answering the door when ... when the police were approaching them, and in order to make the criminal charge, the police would have to go get a search warrant. Um, which takes significant amount of time, etc., and so we moved to that ... we ... we added the civil infraction so that we could use that instead. Bramel/ (both talking) My confusion came from a... from reading the code and then, uh, an Iowa City Police officer telling me that it was a civil charge. So that must have been (mumbled) mistake on his end, and my ... both my end too, um ... yeah, that's what was told to me. Nonetheless, um, I'll ... I'll get away from the ... the, all the legal stuff per se and ... and let's talk about why we should do this, and Eleanor pointed out a few points about expungements and whatnot and I think that's all valid and correct, and I think what it comes down to, uh, I had a few points in my memos about employment and whatnot, and whether someone would have to disclose information about being charged criminally. In my experience, and a lot of experiences that, um, with colleagues I've worked with, um, we found that it's ... it's most typically, uh, criminal based. Um, there's a lot of questions on applications that you're going to be looking at when you're my age, say criminal on them. So that's where this is coming from. Um, but uh, and ... and so, um, remaining on Iowa Courts Online, for example, I mean, if... if you do a background check with, uh, for a, uh, for a criminal charges expunged, you can still find it, if I'm not mistaken. I ... I believe you can as far as ... as far as I'm aware. Um, even though it's expunged. You mentioned that you can have a... Dilkes/ On Iowa Courts Online. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 57 Bramel/ Well, on Iowa Courts Online it disappears after two years. But if you have a background check done that you would pay for, like that ... that part two, that you mentioned. Dilkes/ That's not my understanding, and I verified that with the Police today. A DCI report would not show the expunged charge. Bramel/ Very good. All right. Hayek/ I mean, the ... the system treats it as if it never existed. Dilkes/ ...never exists. Bramel/ Very good. (noises on mic) (several talking) Botchway/ ...I have multiple questions. Cause this is what I ... cause I had ... (mumbled) sent the memo. Um, so who assumes the court costs if we do win? Currently? I know the $85 charge... Dilkes/ The defendant. Botchway/ The defendant. So, I mean, from the argument standpoint that they wouldn't pay, you could make the same comment that they couldn't... they might not pay the $85 charge, as well. I mean, obviously it's more substantial from, uh, $750 to $1,000 charge, but that cost, if we win, would still be put onto... Dilkes/ Well, but the ... the comparison is that ... we're not talking about the fine now. We're talking about the court costs... Botchway/ Okay. Dilkes/ ...and with a civil fine, we have to pay it up front. So in every one we're going to have to pay that charge, and we will only get it back if they pay. With criminal charges, we don't pay any court costs up front. Botchway/ And they pay later on. Okay. Hargadine/ Let me insert a little comment there. You know I think Eleanor's estimated, it's about $35,000 that the taxpayers are gonna... eventually pick up, um ... just to get those, and then as far as our in -house procedures, that means a check request. You know, when we ... we cite somebody, come back, we fill out the report ... the paperwork for Finance to get a check to pay the ... the Court with the filing. On every case. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 58 Botchway/ And I understand the procedure constraints, cause I think Eleanor did a good job as far as ... from the administrative ... additional administrative challenges, but just a quick math, I think it was $337,000, um, that we would ... if we got... Bramel/ That was for if we did (both talking) Botchway/ If we did it for all PAULAs, it would be about $300,000. Dilkes/ No, no, no, not $300 I don't think, was it? Botchway/ I did four ... 450 times 85. Dilkes/ I think we calculated (several talking) 35,000 in upfront filing fees. Payne/ If it was 100, put two zeros on the end and it's 41,000 and it's something less than 41,000. Botchway/ Sorry, I was doing it from 415 times 750. Dilkes/ Yeah, no. It's ... upfront is only the payment (both talking) Botchway/ Well I wasn't, no, no ... this is, so I'm talking about a separate... separate argument. mean, if we won every judgment, we would then get ... if I'm ... correct me if I'm wrong, we would still get about $300,000 from the defendants for paying the fine, the civil charge. Dilkes/ If we collected every judgment. Botchway/ Right. Dilkes/ If we won every judgment and we collected every judgment. Botchway/ Right. Um, the other issue is as far as expungement is concerned, is that automatic? Like do you just, after two years your record just automatically expunged. Bramel/ No (both talking) Dilkes/ No, they come and request, uh, request it, but it's, as I was saying earlier, it's ... it's simple in Johnson County because, urn ... the ... the, what the magistrates have been doing haven't... have, asking us as the prosecutor to ... to report to them on whether there are any violations in the interim, and if there weren't they (both talking) Payne/ But the person has to know to request this. Botchway/ Exactly! Correct. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 59 Dilkes/ Uh huh. Botchway/ And that's... that's another fear of mine because, again, kind of going on what Alec, or ... what ... Alec was saying, sorry, was basically from ... from my understanding, you know, as a student you graduate, you're leaving, and from an accounting perspective as well cause I did meet with the HR Department briefly and talk to `em, that this charge would not be on the initial application that you have to disclose. It'd only partic... particularly talked about criminal charges. I wasn't able to get in touch with the Law School. Granted I waited until the last minute, um, to ... to ask from a bar application standpoint whether or not this ... this wouldn't have to be, um, disclosed as well. I ... I thought it wouldn't. Dilkes/ I ... I can actually ... I can pull out a memo for you that we did a few ... few years ago. If you'll recall there was an ... an earlier student liaison that was proposing, um, that we do a deferred prosecution with PAULAs. Um, and we actually we talked to the ... the Law School and the Medical School about whether they would see that, you know, a ... a minor alcohol offense as an impediment to law school or medical school, and the answer we got was no. Botchway/ Well not from law school, medical school, but bar applications. So after the fact. That was my ... that's what I was... Dilkes/ I can't remember what the ... how the question reads. Botchway/ Okay. Dilkes/ Or ... or whether it would be significant. I don't know. I haven't... Hargadine/ I get that question and ... and in addition to those that are going federal and are trying to get a security clearance, I get those questions all the time. And my counsel to them always is disclose it because if they find it and you didn't tell `em about it, then you just excluded yourself. And I've never been contacted back on anybody that was excluded because they disclosed it on the front end. You're always better ... even if it's expunged! You're better off disclosing it. Botchway/ So ... hearing that, I'm going to go about this another round. So presumably obviously disorderly conduct's off the table. And I understood that from an Iowa Code perspective. From a public intoxication standpoint, and from a PAULA standpoint, oh, I did have quick question — as far as the ability to ... to arrest, one of your points was the ability to arrest would ... you would eliminate that. You, the cops would not be able to arrest for public intoxication or for a PAULA, or they wouldn't have the threat of the ability to arrest, but couldn't you then add some additional charge if the ... the person wasn't in compliance? Hargadine/ One of the things that Iowa... the... there isn't a public intox in Missouri, for example, but there is a protective custody clause, where a person can be arrested and held for 10 This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 60 hours, no charges are ever filed after that, but they're such a danger to themselves, they're... they're, you know, drunk and walking in traffic or doing whatever. They've got to be removed and then held. So the police have the legal authority to hold `em under that protective custody. Iowa doesn't have that. Their ... their response to that is the public intox. Bramel/ But ... to answer your question... Dilkes/ (both talking) ...what was your question? Was your question answered there? Botchway/ In a sense. Basically what I was saying was ... again, one of the arguments was the fact if we had the public intoxication and the PAULA as a municipal infraction, we wouldn't be able to have the threat of arrest. Dilkes/ Uh huh. Botchway/ My ... I guess my question is, is could you add an additional charge, if the person isn't compliant? I mean, as such... Bramel/ Well (both talking) Botchway/ ...disorderly conduct, obstruction. Bramel/ Well there's ... well there's that, but ... that's not the point, and the ... and the idea ... yeah, you can arrest someone, uh, if you charge them civilly that doesn't... you're not allowed to arrest them. You ... you just don't do that, but if an officer decided that they needed to arrest someone, or they thought that they were being a threat (mumbled) they would just charge them criminally, and then arrest them. Um, a civil citation would just be citing someone, making them pay a fee. You wouldn't arrest them and take them into ... you wouldn't detain them any ... by any way. Botchway/ Right. My point... regards the argument again ability to arrest. Maybe I'm just tired. So basically what I'm saying is you have an individual who is, um, is a PAULA, and you're giving them a civil citation. They are saying to you that they will continue in the action that they're currently doing, that gave them the civil citation in the first place, and they're not willing to change their behavior. So from that, if they're not willing to leave the establishment with the civil citation, then you would charge them with something else. As far as a disorderly conduct charge. And that would give you the threat of arrest that you currently don't have, if you have that as a civil citation. Dilkes/ Well that assumes that there is another charge. I mean somebody who's stumbling down the street and publicly intoxicated ... uh, and ... and is about ready to hurt themselves by falling down or walking into traffic, I don't know what the other charge would be. Hargadine/ Without a ... um, without a protective custody ... law, that's it. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 61 Dilkes/ If they were starting to fight or something like that, yes, but not... Hargadine/ And Eleanor touched on that, you know, there are times when we've used that law to get somebody to the emergency room, cause that's really where they ought to be, and then we ... we either cite and release or ... unarrest `em. Botchway/ All right. Okay. So ... X on disorderly conduct and obviously the public intox and PAULA. Focusing on the under -21 and open container, as a municipal infraction, why not? I understand the administrative costs, but hearing that it's not a civil infraction, and actually agree with him because I remember that being a Press - Citizen or a Daily Iowan article that people were getting civil infractions for that. I'll have to look, but I just thought it was weird, and then to hear now that it's not a civil infraction. Dilkes/ Which one, under -21? Botchway/ The under -21. For being in bars after 21. I'm relatively sure. Bramel/ I am too. I have it right here (both talking) Botchway/ ...that they had an article. Now I'm not saying that was correct. I'm just saying (laughter) there was a ... (laughs) Yeah, I'm not saying it was correct by any means (laughs) Mims/ Just what I said to Matt! (laughter) Botchway/ I'm just saying that I think there was ... there was definitely an article that was posted regarding (several talking) and that might have just been some misinformation, which is fine, but I guess from my standpoint... Dilkes/ Just a minute, are you aware that any of your officers are charging some kind of civil infraction on a... Hargadine/ It would take a lawyer to get it to court anyway, and I think we'd know about it. Dilkes/ Okay. Botchway/ Okay. I ... so I guess I'm focusing on this particular one and seeing that it be, I guess nice or it'd be I think a better service to our residents rather ... even though they're students, to allow for the ability, not necessarily maybe saying that I would like it to be under -21 in a licensed establishment after 10 P.M. to be a civil infraction, period; however, if that's not the case, at least have ... giving it an option for officers to ... to weigh back and forth, to decide at the time. Dilkes/ Well, I ... I think you have our recommendation, and I think that's a conversation you have with the rest of the Council. (several talking) This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 62 Bramel/ Well I mean, I agree with their... Kingsley, I mean, I ... at least for ... I mean, public... when I talked to the majority of the officers from the ICPD and the UIPD, they said, um, I'm not ... won't name any names or I won't say what they said, um, per se, but um, you know, a lot of them said, um, for public intoxication, don't even try it. Don't even try it. I won't do it. I will not issue it. Uh, and a few officers said, they said yes, go for it. Um, and they didn't give me very many specifics about why, per se. I didn't have enough time to talk with them about that, but I had the majority of `em say no, because the only reason I would ever do this is if they're causing attention to themselves, which I guess technically is ... does work, I mean ... I mean, the State law only says that ... if...if you're publicly intoxicated, that that's a ... that's grounds enough frankly, which is very open to interpretation, so ... that's fine. PAULAs though are, um ... are they scheduled, if I'm not mistaken. I thought they were. Dilkes/ PAULAs are scheduled. Bramel/ Scheduled, yeah, okay. Dilkes/ First offense. Bramel/ For first offense, exactly. The second... second offense and third offense is $500 (both talking) Dilkes/ It goes up more (both talking) and then there's other... there's a substance abuse evaluate or a (both talking) Bramel/ Yep, correct. Yeah, for public intox, if you get a second one, it's a serious misdemeanor, if I'm not mistaken. Um, but PAULAs, no. It's just ... it's scheduled. It stays simple, but the ... the, uh, but the charges increase. Now for ... for PAULAs you don't have to be intoxicated or anything of that ... when I went through the, lot of the police... police reports, we found ... I found that people were getting charged with, um, being in bars after hours and then PAULAs, and they were almost always in pairs. And um... at that time, I thought that being after... in a bar after hours was civil. Cause that's... that's how I interpreted it. Um, and so I figured, well, for PAULAs, granted, there's a ... person who's under 21 who's got possession of alcohol. It ... it's criminal, but why not make it civil, because unless that person is making trouble, or they're not ... you don't necessarily have to arrest them. You can cite them, um, they don't have to have a sip of alcohol in them. They just have to be in the, um, they have to be like controlling the diminutive of the al ... of the drink, know it's alcohol, and... and... meet those criteria. Basically. Which means they don't have to have consumed it. They just have to be there, or somewhat controlling it, more or less. I think that would be, um, valid for a civil citation, because you don't have to arrest someone for that. You could just cite them with a ... you could have ... escort them out of the bar, cite them, um, and send them home with a ... with a fine. But, that makes sense in my opinion, but I'm not sure. That's up to the Council, which we haven't let talk yet frankly. So, sorry about that. Botchway/ Fellow Council Members... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 63 Throgmorton/ I want to toss in two -cents worth, uh, you know, to do my job and earn my pay and all that kind of thing. With due respect to, uh, Eleanor and Tom and... Sam and everybody else, on a topic such as this, I don't believe we should be making our decision based solely on the staff's point of view and recommendation. Dilkes/ That's fine with me! Throgmorton/ I ... I think that's pretty weird actually! (laughter) Uh, we need to hear from the public, and we need to hear from local criminal defense attorneys on the matter, before making a decision. I think we should also ask the Human Rights Commission for advice, and the Citizens Police Review Board. Why not? And ... you now, I could ... I've asked various people around town, uh, about their views on this particular question, and they've given me some insight. You know, maybe they're wrong, I don't know, but here's one example. I've been told that somewhere between 13 and 17% of students leave the University of Iowa with a criminal record, uh, when they graduate, and it's about twice that for males. So that seems to be ... to be, on the face of it, a compelling reason to look really carefully, uh, at the (both talking) Payne/ But is that because they don't know to go ask for it to be expunged? Bramel/ No, I ... I, well (mumbled) Throgmorton/ I ... I don't know, but the record follows them for life. And ... and can harm them for a pretty long time. That's what I've been told anyhow, so I ... are ... is that factually correct? Why is it the case? I don't know. Let me give you another example or two. Um, public intox is a crime that the Police Department inevitably must enforce very selectively. Why is that? Every single I'll bet ... maybe I'm wrong, every one of us has... has committed a criminal offense by drinking too much and being publicly intoxicated, and yet doesn't have it on the criminal record. Everybody at this table. So, I can tell you I have! (several talking) The rest of you can speak for yourselves. So ... I'm not blaming the police. Their attention must be focused. Where's the police attention focused? Downtown! Okay, so other people out in the public world, the public realm, publicly intoxicated, do not get observed. So there's a selective enforcement, at least, you know, this is the claim that I'm hearing from other people, and it rings true to me. Uh, another is that, uh, expunging the record about criminal offenses can be far more difficult to accomplish than ... than your memo makes it sound. Maybe I ... I mean, I don't know. I'm no lawyer. I don't know the facts of the case. Uh, moreover, expunging a conviction does nothing to deal with the harm done by the ongoing arrest record. Okay, so I'm just kind of reporting some things I've heard from various people. I think we need to hear from such people, and ... and ... in a more, uh ... receptive kind of way, rather than with due respect to Eleanor, rather than just hearing, uh, a very skilled lawyer's point of view. Payne/ So if 125 or 325 students get up here in a line and tell you we should do what Alec recommends, and ... five police officers get up here and say no we shouldn't... that, how is that going to help change your mind? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 64 Throgmorton/ I don't know. I didn't tell you about the three stories that I read in an email about the way particular people say that they were treated. All right? Are they right? I don't know. I'm not blaming Sam. And I'm not saying they are right, but... Payne/ It's perception. Dobyns/ Well ... well I think if...if Alec says it, I think he represents, um, I think Alec standing up there and saying this is about equal to several thousand undergraduates saying it. So I appreciate, um, that it takes a little bit less time. (laughter) I guess ... I'd like to speak to this on several fronts. One is I was (mumbled) chair of the medical school admissions committee for years, and I can tell you that having this, uh, criminal penalty in no way affects someone's ability to get into medical school. Now, as you mentioned, lying about it or obscuring it does. But if anyone ... it's an opportunity to exhibit some level of understanding and remorse. It in no way affects, um ... uh, how you get into medical school. Regarding the decision that a police officer has to make, um, I assume ... I've been downtown at 1:00 or 2:00 in the morning, cause ... my days observing the 21- issue, and there are a lot of people who are weaving. There are hundreds of them. And I assume the police aren't stopping those people. They're stopping people, and I've worked in both emergency rooms, the night, and you have someone who is intoxicated, and I fear for my life, and I'm glad I have a security agent there. So when police officer has to be ... if they need, um, a ... uh, criminal, um, citation to be able to legally sort of control the environment that they are in, that is a safety issue with me, and I know that fear. Um, and that's... that's concerning. So as far as hearing other people, I'm looking forward to what the rest of you say. I mean, that's sort of where I stand on this issue. Um, I think some of the softening of some of the other parts, but regarding you know PAULA and um, you know, public intox, that's my viewpoint. Payne/ I think from... Eleanor's memo, I think this is more of an education thing that maybe Alec and his counterpart can do with educating the students that they can get this expunged. They might take a little bit of effort, but they can get it expunged. Mims/ And the DI can do that as well. Hopefully. Payne/ Yeah, exactly! (laughter) Bramel/ We ... we do currently do that. We do ... we do reach out, um, with, uh, emails and uh, and all sorts of different, uh, mediums that we reach out and let students know that they have that option. So it's out there. We and we ... cause that's the biggest misconception is that sometimes students just don't know, frankly, and then if they, uh, cause I ... there's a lot of circumstance when it ... when an officer approaches an individual and ... and decides what to cite them with and, you know, what ... what, if there's a lack of communication or ... or what not. Sometimes people don't know, frankly, um, there's a lot of students out there who don't know what Iowa Courts Online is, or they don't know the difference between criminal and civil. Which is odd. Just ... you might think they This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 65 would, but a lot of people do not, and then they end up not reporting it, and that's a bigger, as Sam said, that's a bigger, um, that's worse, frankly. Hayek/ You know, that ... that's a ... an outreach and ... and education issue that ... can be addressed through, uh, you know, a variety of means, whether through Student Legal Services or UISG or the variety, you know, the panoply of communication modes there are to ... to, um, to talk to young people who are coming up through the University system. Um, I mean, in fairness to staff, as I recall the question ... the direction from Council, or at least ... at least three of us was, you know, look into whether these municipal charges could be turned into, uh, civil citations. That was the question posed, and we got, uh, we got that answer. Um ... I'm ... I'm sympathetic to ... to the issue, but... but... the, I mean, the details are important here. And, uh, I'm not seeing based on this memo, and your piece, which... pieces, which I've ... which I've read, um ... you know, a ... a realistic way to change the system that's in place now that would... Payne/ That would make it better! Hayek/ ... that would make it better. Mims/ Yeah, I think as I read through this, looking at the difference in terms of...taking into account the difference in costs, the difference in whether you can expunge or not expunge, um ... you know, the administrative effort on the part of the City, etc. I don't see a compelling reason to make the changes, and I ... I think in some cases it's ... it's to the detriment of the students because then in some cases they've got things that they can't get expunged. Throgmorton/ Matt, I want to agree. You're completely right that, uh, Eleanor and Tom, you both ... you jointly wrote the memo, right, Tom, you and Eleanor? I don't know. Anyhow they ... they answered the question posed... Markus/ (away from mic, unable to hear) (laughter) Throgmorton/ But it ... but it also (several talking) it also yielded a conclusion, and the conclusion was staff is unable to identify a compelling reason for creation of a civil infraction for the simple misdemeanors addressed in the memo, particu ... particularly in light of dot, dot, dot. So ... that's not a factual ... an answer to a factual question. That ... that's a claim. And I think in ... we should never make a policy decision based on the point of view of one party, one side in a ... one perspective, and that's what, I mean, you know what it's like in any court of law, one lawyer speaks, another lawyer has a different point of view. And you make a judgment based on the conflicting interpretations (both talking) Payne/ But we're not asking to change a policy here. I think you're right if we're asking to change it. We're not ... we just wanted the facts. She gave us the facts. Throgmorton/ With the recommendation at the end, with the conclusion. There's no compelling reason to change. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 66 Hayek/ Well what I would suggest is that you take this ... this memo, which does contain editorial comment toward the end, which we would have asked for anyway... Mims/ Uh huh. Hayek/ ...and shop it around, and if...if you come up with constituents or groups who take a different view, bring that back to us, and if there are three people who want to revisit this on a work session at a future date, we can do so. Mims / And I think what's important in terms of getting ... that potential additional information is that ... that it's not, that we're not just getting a bunch of anecdotal information, that you have no idea if there's any truth to it or not. I mean, you talked about the Citizens Police Review Board weighing in. In the four plus years I've been on Council, I'm not sure that I've seen a single complaint to the Citizens Police Review Board that has been upheld. I might be wrong. Urn ... one? Okay. Okay. I overlooked it, I guess. Hargadine/ It's recent. Mims/ Oh, okay. (laughs) Markus/ (away from mic) Mims/ Okay. All right, then it's been recent. But ... but my point is, there have been a lot of complaints, and... again, it becomes perception and then when you get hopefully objective people looking at the factual basis, um, the complainant, you know, what the complainant's viewpoint was is not upheld at all, and so to ask for other input I think is fine, but I think ... you have to look at is it just anecdotal stuff that can't be documented or ... or co... (both talking) Throgmorton/ ...in that particular instance, there's a procedural hurdle that's very difficult to overturn. With regard to the, uh, Citizens Police Review Board. So ... I'm ... I'm not persuaded. Mims/ (both talking) ...cameras, less hard it's going to be if they do something (laughs) Botchway/ I guess my ... I guess again, you know, my issue with bringing it before because I was so surprised that I got the three, um, as it is anyways, is just the fact of...to me, it just doesn't make sense that we will give a criminal infraction for being under 21 in a bar past 10 P.M. I ... I just ... I'm not understanding, even from the wonderful points that you provided, why we can't give a civil citation. I understand from an administrative standpoint. It puts more onus on the City. But again, from City Council standpoint, and again hopefully speaking for residents, not only students but also, um, other residents of the community, it ... that to me is not enough of a compelling reason not to have a civil infraction. Just because... again, and I guess I'm speaking ... I'm 28 now, so I'm seven This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 67 years removed, but urn ... I just ... I just don't agree. I just...I guess I ... I just don't agree. You're going to give us ... you're' going to give a criminal, urn ... what is it called, Sam? Bramel/ Citation. Botchway/ Criminal ci ... whatever it's called, to somebody for being under the bar ... (laughs) from being (laughs) it's late! From being in the bar under 21. That, I just have a problem with that, from so many different levels. Bramel/ I ... I'd be ... I agree with that, frankly. First I thought it was civil, and then I found it a little odd that we were issuing 380 of these, um, after, you know, in a bar after hours, and I was like why are we doing so many civil charges. Well, they're not. They're criminal. But I find it a little odd also that, you know, um, the City put the 21- ordinance into effect, and that's ... that was a City Council decision, yet the people who break that ordinance are charged as criminals, which is a ... that doesn't make sense to me, frankly. I think it would be more appropriate to charge them with a citation, because you can issue someone a citation. Just, that's just, you know, monetary value. That ... that's all that is. You don't have to arrest them for it. If they're breaking a City ordinance... Hargadine/ They are getting citations. It's just ... happens to be on the criminal side. Bramel/ Yes, exactly, and they're being arrested for it, correct? Hargadine/ Not necessarily. They can be cited (both talking) Dilkes/ Not for under 21. Bramel/ You can be cited and not necessarily arrested. Okay. Hargadine/ The only thing you cannot be cited and released is on a serious misdemeanor. That has ... requires a posting out of jail. Bramel/ So we... Hargadine/ But simples, absolutely — cite and release. Bramel/ Do we arrest for all PAULAs? Hargadine/ All PAULAs? No! Bramel/ Okay. All right. Dilkes/ No, not ... not, no! Bramel/ Yeah, I mean, for ... for a simple misdemeanor you don't have to arrest, so you don't have to arrest someone. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 68 Dilkes/ Uh huh, you can cite and release. Hargadine/ (both talking) ...by saying all, and... Bramel/ Yeah, I know, I know, I just wanted to ask the question, cause from what I found record - wise, about over 95% of them were all ... were arrests when they, when it came to a PAULA. So that's just (mumbled) Hargadine/ What you'll never know is how many people we take home. Bramel/ That's true. I guess that, uh, but I can't know how many people we take home either. If you don't know, I don't know... Hargadine/ It doesn't show up anywhere (both talking) Bramel/ Exactly, and what also doesn't show up is if, you know, certain interactions and ... and what not that, uh, a lot of students, uh, well, it doesn't matter who frankly. If they're arrested and what not, um, and they have to show up to court, they may not know what they're doing. That's... that's the biggest... that's why we have Student Legal Services here at the University, for (both talking) Dilkes/ I ... I would ... I know, you're probably ready to wrap it up, but I did want to make one comment about in Alec's memo he ... I think you seemed to suggest that if we did have a civil infraction it would be enforced by all law enforcement agencies, and I don't know at all that that's the case. I mean, UIPD and any law officers can write a criminal charge, regardless of what... Bramel/ Yes. Dilkes/ ...jurisdiction, but that's not the case with the civil infraction. Bramel/ According to State law it does. Any State officer can issue it, as long as the municipality, um, gives them permission to do so. As long as they're aware and they give them the permission, they can. A State officer could. So... Hargadine/ But you could also end up with two different departments in the same city handling things totally different. Dilkes/ The ... the (both talking) Bramel/ ... (mumbled) Dilkes/ ...the State code says that with a municipal infra ... a municipal infraction can ... can be cited by an officer who is responsible for enforcement of the City code. Now, I don't think that a UIPD officer is responsible for enforcement of the City code. We might... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 69 can envision perhaps a contractual arrangement where they would agree to ... to enforce our civil infraction... they might not want to do that given the additional administrative burden, but I don't think we could assume, and we ... I can certainly look into this more if you want me to, but I don't think we can assume that the UIPD, if we create a civil infraction, is going to start using it or will be able to enforce it. Bramel/ If we give them permission, they will be able to; whether they choose not to is their own discretion. That's... that's the way I interpreted that. Hayek/ Well we ... let ... let's ... I'm getting looks from people to wrap this up. There do not appear to be a majority of Councilors who ... who want to move in the direction of change, uh, advocated by Alec and ... and Kingsley and ... and Jim. And you may not be all entirely on the same page anyway, I can't really tell, but uh, you're in the minority. Um ... and so I think we should wrap this up, but ... Jim, apropos what I said earlier. I mean, this is a recommendation from our staff. We have a counter - recommendation from UISG, but that's all we have, and if...if you want to... Dobyns/ Matt, what do people think about the next to last bullet about making open container and under 21 municipal infractions? Botchway/ (mumbled) ...yeah, that's what I just talked about. Dobyns/ Yeah, but I'm just trying to get a... Botchway/ Oh, okay. Dobyns/ I know what you guys ... yeah. Payne/ Well what they were just saying is then UI Police can't ... that's what the argument was, whether UI Police could enforce that if it was a municipal infraction. Dilkes/ I don't know a definitive answer to that. I just know it's a question. So if you wanted to pursue it, I would have to look into that. I don't (both talking) Throgmorton/ I'd provide the same answer I provided earlier. I think we need to hear other perspectives on this instead of just on the cuff, coming up with a policy decision. Hayek/ Yeah. I mean, realistically you're talking 5 or 8% of the total, uh, offenses that were studied, the big dogs are PAULAs and ... and public intox. Um... Dobyns/ It would be ... symbolic. Botchway/ Even more reason just to make it a municipal infraction. Or a City infraction. Thank you, Matt, appreciate that. (laughter) Hayek/ Well I'm not ... I'm not in favor of any change at this time (laughter) This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014. April 1, 2014 Iowa City City Council Regular Work Session Page 70 Botchway/ I know! Hayek/ Uh, but if we were (several talking) into perspective. It's not ... it's not the thing, uh, those aren't the offenses that ... that, urn ... most affect students, just statistically. And I'm running out of steam. (several talking) ...else is too. So ... you guys want to put this back on a session to consider a sub -set of this, that's, uh, that's fine. Dobyns/ No, I'm okay. I just wanted to ... (both talking) Hayek/ I'll chew on it, but... Dobyns/ No, I... Hayek/ ...don't want to commit to anything. Okay. I think that's it. Thanks! We got through a long day. See you in a couple of weeks. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular work session of April 1, 2014.