HomeMy WebLinkAbout2014-07-30 TranscriptionJuly 30, 2014 Iowa City City Council Special Work Session W/P &Z Commission Page 1
Council Present: Dickens, Dobyns, Hayek, Mims, Payne, Throgmorton
Council Absent: Botchway
Staff Present: Fruin, Dilkes, Karr, Yapp, Andrew, Boothroy
Planning & Zoning: Paula Swygard, Phoebe Martin, Charles Eastham, Jodie Theobald,
Carolyn Dyer, John Thomas
Consultation regarding rezoning First Ave. & Hickory Trail (Jesse Allen property):
Hayek/ Okay. Uh, we'll go ahead and get started. I want to welcome our Planning and Zoning
Commissioners, uh, to this consult. We appreciate your service, uh, to the City. Um ... as
you know, we're here to discuss, uh, the, uh .... to do the consult regarding the proposed
rezoning of the First Avenue and Hickory Trail project, the ... the Jesse Allen property,
um and as you know it's ... it's embedded in our City Code that, um, in instances when the
City Council, uh, reaches an informal consensus on a proposed zoning, uh, amendment
that is contrary to the recommendation of, uh, the P &Z Commission that the Council
defers formal action, um, and holds, uh, a discussion, uh, between the Council and the
Planning and Zoning, uh, Commission, um, and so that's where we are at the ... uh, we
conducted the public hearing on this item a couple of weeks ago and then took the
temperature of the Council and, uh, based upon that, we um ... uh, continued the public
hearing and we deferred, uh, action on first consideration so that we could hold this
consult. Um, the, uh .... our ... our Code says nothing more than a discussion. Um, it
doesn't define it. Um ... uh, so ... these instances are... are... are fairly few and far
between. I don't think we've had one in a couple of years. Um ... but uh ... that's what
we're here for this evening. Uh, I would ... I would caution the Council that, uh, you
know, we should direct our conversation, uh, to the Planning and Zoning and have a back
and forth, uh, discussion. I think as... as tempted as we may be to, you know, kind of talk
to ourselves about, uh, this, it's my sense that that really is more appropriate for, uh, the
renewed, um ... uh ... uh, action item, uh, in August, I think it's the 19th. So, um, with that
I can tell you that staff is here and they're prepared to give an overview of this item if
that would help. Um ... uh, but they don't have to! Uh, and this is not an opportunity for
the public to weigh in. This is again a discussion between us and ... and P &Z. So, with
that I would ... I would open it up. I note that it was a 4 -2 vote, uh, at...at Planning and
Zoning.
Eastham/ Uh, if the Commission doesn't mind, I ... I was the Chair of the Commission at that
meeting. Ann Freerks, our, uh .... uh, Commission Chair was not able to be there at that
meeting. Um ... so it's fine with me. I don't know about the other Commissioners if, uh,
John Yapp goes ahead and gives an overview, maybe ... if the Council would find that
helpful.
Yapp/ Uh, thank you, Mr. Eastham. Uh, just to briefly orient everybody ... uh, this is an
application for a rezoning of 3.6 acres at the northeast corner of First Avenue and
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Hickory Trail. Uh, this is the location map for the site. An aerial photo of the site
showing, uh, Cypress Court to the east, Hickory Trail along the southern boundary, and
First Avenue along the western boundary of the property. Uh, the sensitive areas
ordinance allows and encourages, uh, clustering of density in order to avoid, uh, sensitive
areas. In this case there's a stream corridor and linear wetland along the east edge of the
property. Uh ... the ordinance allows the laying out of lots, according to minimum lot
sizes, and allows that density to be clustered. Uh, this graphic shows that there could be
11 lots on the property. The applicant has proposed clustering the density in a building at
the northwest corner of the site. Uh, the dashed line through the center of the property,
running north/south, represents the 100 -foot buffer from the wetland, uh, and stream
corridor ... on the property. Uh (clears throat) the proposal is for an 11 -unit structure.
Uh ... it would be accessible with an at -grade entrance, uh, pedestrian access to the First
Avenue sidewalk, uh, and with an elevator proposed in the building for accessibility.
These are some images of the surrounding area of the site. Uh, this is a graphic prepared
by the applicant to show the amount, uh, to highlight the amount of open space, uh, on
the property, were this development to proceed. And some elevations of the proposed
structure. With that, uh, staff will be available for questions.
Eastham/ If the Council, uh, prefers, I can ... uh, we can just ask Commission Members to
indicate briefly why they supported, or did not support this application, and then we...
perhaps we could entertain, or ask, uh, if... if the Council wants to ask us questions, we
could do that.
Hayek/ Sure!
Eastham/ Is that all right?
Hayek/ Sounds good, Charlie!
Eastham/ Okay, uh, I have no particular order in mind here, so, uh ... we'll start maybe with
Paula, is that okay?
Swygard/ Sure! (laughter) That's fine! Okay, well I voted against this. Um ... for me ... I ... I felt
it was important to drill down through all the various ordinances, Comprehensive Plans
that allow for interpretation and get right down to the bluff word ... Bluffwood
Neighborhood Plan, uh, and examine that. Um, and that plan ... um, supports largely
single - family with some opportunities for duplexes and small -scale apartments. Um, in
staff report of June 5th, they talked about, uh, mitigating the size and the bulk of this
particular apartment that's proposed, which indicates to me that it's not necessarily a
small sized apartment, as the neighborhood views it, supported by neighborhood, uh,
people who came to the meetings and expressed that. Um, there ... there is an existing
family home, set of homes here unlike some of the larger, uh, developments out along
First Avenue. Those tend to be on the west side. The east side is more smaller -scale
duplexes and um, the fact that this driveway goes back behind and ... uh, adds further...
intrusion into the single - family homes that, uh, are across the ravine area there was
another factor for me. And ... um, I also think that the apartments built along First
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Avenue are ... rather large in scale and I think that, um, this particular area, given the
critical slopes that would be disturbed by this plan, even though it allows for open space,
those were all the factors why I voted against it.
Eastham/ Phoebe?
Martin/ Uh, I actually voted for this, um, development and my reasons are in some of the letters
and things that we were receiving that were in opposition of the development, people
talked about, um, wanting to preserve the landscape, and you know, talking ... then I guess
so I'm ... the way that I'm perceiving the, um, the northeast planning district is ... wanting
to preserve the landscape instead of making, you know, 11 sod yards, one development
that encompasses a quarter of the ... the acreage seems to me to preserve more of
the ... the, um, the landscape in that respect. So ... I was ... I am a fan of the size of it,
where it is, and how it...it does address the ... that is a very steep slope and, you know, in
the ... in the Bluffwood Neighborhood it talks about highly erodible soils and steep
wooded slopes and wetlands, and because you have that, um, that sort of ravine in the
middle, that brings to my mind issues that Duck Creek had, you know, because there was
a fresh spring pond there, those homes still get water because water is more powerful
than we are. That's going to happen! This ... this development taking place in that
smaller area seems to me to make more sense in allowing the rest of the wetlands to do
what they need to do. So, um ... I think ... that sums it up for me!
Eastham/ Uh, John?
Thomas/ Um ... I think ... the, one of the ... some of the key issues that I was (clears throat) looking
at were as Paula mentioned, um, through reading through the ... the northeast planning
district document, as well as the, uh, the Comprehensive Plan, because the two ... the two
are tied together. In fact, um, I went through this in a fair amount of detail in the, uh,
when it came before us, if you want to refer to that, as well. Um ... but I ... to me one of
the interesting issues with this was the fact that it ... the northeast plant did ... call for and
said was appropriate, uh, to ... to build, uh, duplex, zero -lot housing, townhouses, and
small ... um, multi - family buildings in the Bluffwood Neighborhood, and so the ... the
question I have when I read that, well what is ... what exactly is a small apartment
building? And the northeast plan then referred to the Comp Plan because there are
development standards in the Comp Plan and it was there that I ... I thought there was
some interesting insight in the Comprehensive Plan because it talked about how do we
restrict the size of multi - family... development, in a... in a neighborhood which is
primarily single - family, and what it talked about was you restrict it by the lot size.
Because the lot ... if the lot size is small, it will only yield four to six units. And it's very
easy to design an apartment building, or a multi - family building, of four to six units,
which is compatible with ... single-family residences. So I thought well that's interesting.
That makes sense. But what it didn't... what... what we're ... what we're faced with along
First Avenue is much larger lots. So the larger lot size, uh, if you take the same
approach, means you can end up as you see along First Avenue — very large buildings.
And this is a RS -5 zone so ... I think it's ... it's especially critical that we preserve the
intent of the RS -5 zone. And ... so ... while I think it's ... all the goals that this ... this
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proposal does achieve with respect to the sensitive areas, I think at the same time it needs
to be cognizant of the fact that it is in a single - family residential area and that the sco...
the size of the building, uh, needs to ... to reflect that. So, in the staff report it talked about
how it's, you know, the building as proposed in mass and scale is ... is, um, compatible
with the other buildings along First Avenue. It... it doesn't really talk about... it's
compatibility with the existing single - family residences, and I think ... I think it's hard to
...it's hard for me to find that the size of the building is compatible, uh, with those
existing single - family residences, which do abut the property. This is ... this ... this
proposal is different than some of the more recent multi - family projects that we've seen,
which are on the other side of First Avenue. This ... this is actually a case where it abuts
the Bluffwood Neighborhood. Um ... I think there ... so as a consequence of that it...it
has, you know, in terms of the views... these... this is abutting the properties along the
cul -de -sac. Uh, I think there are impacts on the views of those residences. Um, but I
think the key issue for me is this question of what is the appropriate building type? How
do we transition, um ... in a situation like this, and I ... I would go so far as to say the ... the
buildings on the ... on the west side of First Avenue almost now require us to transition,
that single - family residences ... uh, on the east side of First Avenue here would not be
appropriate. I would ... I would be looking at other building types that are provisionally
allowed under RS -5, such as duplexes and townhouses. I think ... I think that provides,
um ... a way of bridging between the single - family neighborhood and the ... the multi-
family on the ... on the, uh, west side of First Avenue. Um, and it may require minor
encroachment into the sensitive areas — I don't know. Um ... but I ... I think if we do that,
if that... if that were done in a... in a sensitive manner, I think it... it, uh, it... it would be
appropriate to forgive that encroachment if the building size is more compatible with the
single - family neighborhood.
Eastham/ (both talking)
Dyer/ I voted in favor of it. I, um... considered what the alternative would be if these were
single- family or... or duplexes. Among other things, that would make a lot of driveways
onto First Avenue, which people complain is too busy already. Um ... the other main
point that, um ... I have is that this particular configuration, urn ... permits ... uh, the
preservation of a great deal of open space, which would not occur if there were single -
family homes there that ... just hypothetically there'd be fences around yards and ... play
structures and other kinds of things, which might or might not be compatible with, um...
what the people on the, um, Crescent Drive or Cypress Court, um, would like to see. I
think it's a good compromise. Um ... and um ... the third point is that ... most of these
houses on the other ... on Cypress Court are at least a block away from this. It's not as if
it's the ... next door. Um ... the creek is a natural barrier, um ... and ... the distance is ... is
another barrier. Um ... I think First Avenue has developed into ... as an arterial, it's a ... an
appropriate place for multi- family houses.
Hayek/ Thank you.
Eastham/ Jodie.
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Theobald/ Um, when I looked at this, um, I ... I looked at both the Comprehensive Plan and the
Northeast District Plan, and also, urn ... OPD -5, um, at ... general standards, underneath it,
and there were a couple of visions in the Comprehensive Plan that in my mind, um, I
guess I should stay ... say I voted for this project. Uh, and that tipped the scale in favor
for me. Um, one of `em was looking at a changing housing market and looking at aging
baby boomers, and I think there's maybe even a line about them being able to stay in
their own neighborhood, and I saw this project as potential for that, potential to downsize.
Um, I also am very big on ... (several talking in background)
Eastham/ Oh, sorry, Jodie.
Theobald/ I'm very big on the environment and um, so ... the vision that talks about protecting
and enhancing the environment also has, uh, very strong pull for me. Um, looking at how
the Northeast Plan talks about the difficult topography in the Bluffwood area, and how
density, urn ... density could be clustered more. Building onto buildable portion of the
property, and it ta ... talks about a conc ... conservation designs could be used in this area,
and so I saw this project as doing that. Um, I .... I liked that the trees weren't going to be
touched. I liked that the stream corridor ... and it mentions all those things within both the
Comprehensive Plan and the Northeast Dis ... District Plan. It also specifically mentions
this area. So I see OPD -5 as giving us flexibility to be able to do that, um, and I think
that was a very strong argument for me. It does talk about in the OPD -5 about the
development will not adversely affect views, light, and air; property values; and privacy
of neighboring properties anymore than what a conventional development, and in my
mind I see this as having less impact, um, on doing all those things, within this area. So
that's why I vated ... voted in favor of it.
Eastham/ Uh, I also supported this application. Uh ... for many of the reasons that other people
who supported it have stated. Uh, I kind of divide the application into ... uh, into two
issues. One is the development of the site itself, and I agree that this application, uh, is...
is very respectful of the, uh, of this site as having a stream corridor and a significant
wetland, uh, which is still important eventually for the long -term health of, uh, Hickory
Hill Park as well as this ... this general area, and the proposed, uh, the proposal to develop
this site does preserve all of those parts of the, uh, of the site — stream corridor, the
wetlands, and the required buffer, uh, between the wetlands and... and development itself.
Uh, I ... I, and those things were important to me when I was considering this ... the, uh,
application. I also, uh, before I made any decisions I did review the Comprehensive Plan
and the, uh, and the District Plan, and uh, for many of the reasons that Jodie and other
people have stated, I think this is compatible, uh, with the ... with those plans. Um, I also
asked the, uh, staff to spend quite a bit of their time, frankly, uh, doing a... a count of
multi - family and, uh, single - family development within this ... the neighborhood areas,
and I know it's a little bit hard to figure out what's applicable neigh... neighborhood area
for this, uh, this part of the city, but the result was that there ... there is a, in my view, uh,
there's a ... there's an existing mix of housing types which somewhat favors (mumbled)
single- family detached and ... and uh, and duplex development, and I've always thought
that the Comprehensive Plan strives very hard not to prefer any housing type or, uh, over
any other housing type. Uh, and I note that during the, uh ... uh, P &Z hearings the
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developer mentioned the ... the price points, uh, that they're considering for this, uh, for
the, uh, homes in this building, and they're, uh, the amounts that's men ... that were
mentioned were ... are less than, uh, much of the market value of the current, uh, existing
single - family and multi, uh, and duplex, uh, homes in the general Bluff ...Bluffwood area.
Uh, the Comprehensive Plan does call for a mix of income types within neighborhoods,
so that was ... that was important to me. In terms of the design of the building, urn ... uh, I
don't find the size of the building, uh, or any of its features, uh, except perhaps the
retaining wall, which I'll get back to, uh, to be incompatible with what is there. I ... like
everybody else or many other people, I notice that there's a large... there's (mumbled)
and I've been in this area before and I visited it when this ... when the P &Z was having its
hearings. There's a considerable distance between where this building will be and any
existing buildings. Um, so I think that's a factor in trying to figure out if this is an
appropriate building to size and type. Um, I think the, uh, applicant has gone to some,
uh, trouble to ... to have a building design that is a ... uh, appropriate for the site and
compatible with the ... with the neighborhood altogether. Um ... in ... in terms of the, uh,
the intent of RS -5 zoning, uh, it's always seemed to me that one, um, while RS -5 zoning
is oftentimes interpreted as solely being a ... a, always preserving single - family detached
development, I don't think that's actually true. I think the zoning ordinance, uh, because
of the ... of the, uh, existence of the planned development features in the zoning
ordinance, I think the RS -5, uh ... uh, zoning does oftentimes contemplate, urn ... uh, multi-
family development, either an apartment building. This has been termed an apartment
building. I don't think it actually is, uh, or mu ... or townhomes or, uh ... uh, duplexes. So
for all those reasons I did support the plan, uh, this proposal. So, be happy to have any
conversations that Council wishes to have with anyone.
Payne/ Charlie, you mentioned you were going to say something about the retaining wall, but...
Eastham/ Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot about that (laughs) Thank you! The ... the retaining wall, I
think the ... as I understand it, the retaining wall height is proj ... is proposed to be about 8-
feet, and I thought frankly that the developer might, uh, terrace that wall so that it... any
(clears throat) any given part of it doesn't rise over say 4 -feet or something like that.
(coughs) To me that presents a little bit more attractive wall, um ... (mumbled) use of...
use of retaining walls, and I notice in this area there are, uh, other ... uh, developments
that have used terraced retaining walls, which I think, uh, help a lot, but I didn't ... I didn't
try to require that as part of the plan.
Dickens/ What was the price range of the...
Eastham/ As I recall, Terry, uh, it was about 215 to 245, I think.
Dobyns/ Matt, I did ask the developer if they had a picture. I don't know, Jesse, if you had that
ready yet, um, and John. It was ... I asked for ... maybe a better picture of the retaining
wall ... for Council's consideration.
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Yapp/ We did obtain a, uh ... a few images of the project without the landscaping. Uh, and this is
one of the rear of the property. And ... this is one standing further back of the rear of the
property, where the majority of the wall would be visible.
Dobyns/ Charlie, that's the retaining wall you were alluding to?
Eastham/ Yes, right.
Martin/ Charlie, I have the ... uh, to everyone, I have the notes on the price point and it is 215 to
245. Just...
Eastham/ My memory is not totally deteriorated (laughter and several talking)
Dobyns/ Matt, are we ready to ... ask questions or...
Hayek/ Oh, yeah! Yeah. Ask away!
Dobyns/ John, I was wondering if you could step up, and this is a question I had, and ... and
Carolyn, it was something that you mentioned about what other alternatives, um, could
we have for the property, and I recall something, uh, City staff told us is that when it's
the last, um, plat in a division, it's kinda hard sometimes to put things in there, and this is
sort of ... needs to be squeezed in. If you could take a look at the map, um, if it stayed
where it currently is at RS -5, is that 100 -foot dotted line still relevant?
Yapp/ With a new subdivision, yes it is.
Dobyns/ Okay. So my sense is, and I ... I suspect that the necessity to have, um, you'd have to
have an alleyway going on to the, um, I forget what trail that is.
Yapp/ Uh, Hickory Trail.
Dobyns/ Hickory Trail, rather than on First Avenue, so you don't have a lot of driveways
emptying onto a ... an arterial. Where would an alley go ... if you had individual houses as
des ... as required by RS -5?
Yapp/ I think that would be difficult to fit, especially on the southern end of the property.
Dobyns/ Isn't it like impossible... to fit? I mean, I ... I can't, um, this ... my ... my sense is, is that,
um, and Carolyn, when you were thinking about what other ... things this could be, did
you come up with anything? I didn't come up with anything.
Dyer/ No! I ... and frankly I've looked at this property before myself.
Dobyns/ Yeah.
Dyer/ Um ... and didn't ... think it was feasible for ... for lots of kinds of things.
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Dobyns/ So it's going to be a park.
Yapp/ Well, the other alternative under (both talking)
Dobyns/ ... cause I don't... any developer's never going to (both talking)
Yapp/ Under ... under RS -5, uh, zoning, and I'll refer back to this graphic, uh, the property owner
would have the right to subdivide the property with single - family lots as a subdivision.
Uh, it would not require a rezoning, and therefore there would not be as much discretion
that the City would have, as long as the development met all the subdivision standards.
Uh ... we believe there could be the ... seven single - family lots fronting on First Avenue.
Uh, the RS -5 zoning allows a duplex on the corner, uh, for a total of nine structures. We
believe could be done with a standard subdivision.
Payne/ Which would mean all those curb cuts onto First Avenue. For... for driveways?
Yapp/ Could mean that, yes.
Throgmorton/ So let me ... let me follow up on that. Um ... as ... as many of us do, I routinely
drive out Rochester Avenue, uh, from the core of town, out ... excuse me (noise on mic)
out, uh, past the Ralston Creek bridge and so on, and oddly enough there are lots of, uh,
single - family houses with curb cuts fronting onto a pretty heavily traveled street, for...
for Iowa City. So what specifically is the objection to having single - family curb cuts
onto First Avenue?
Yapp/ Every access point is a potential conflict point. Uh, because of traffic pulling in and out of
traffic, and ... and the City does now have access management standards that, uh,
encourage minimizing curb cuts onto arterial streets, because of the ... that conflict.
Throgmorton/ And ... and conflict exists on Rochester and several other (both talking)
Yapp/ I agree, yes.
Throgmorton/ So what's the rationale again for trying to avoid that conflict?
Yapp/ To minimize the conflict between traffic on the street and traffic pulling in and out (both
talking)
Throgmorton/ I was just trying to (both talking) If ... if traffic's moving at 37 or 38 miles an
hour, which I ... it's probably moving faster than that routinely on First Avenue. It's
probably going about 40. I don't know exactly. You'd probably know.
Payne/ The speed limit's 25.
Yapp/ It's in the 30s. (laughter)
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Throgmorton/ I know the speed limit's the 35.
Payne/ 25! (several talking)
Throgmorton/ It's in the high 30s, would be my guess. The neighbors know; I don't but when I
stand there and watch the traffic going by, it seems to me it's certainly in its mid to
upper -30s. Anyhow, my ... my point is, uh, that uh ... the street design affects the land use
choice and vice versa. So there's an interaction between street design and the
development of this and similar kinds of properties, and maybe we need to be rethinking
that. In other words, instead of sort of by rote saying there should be no curb cuts, no
driveway access points for seven or some number of single - family houses right there,
maybe we should be saying in fact what those cuts would do, like on Rochester Avenue,
is slow the traffic. And maybe that's a good thing, cause slower traffic produces fewer
accidents and certainly less harmful accidents.
Dobyns/ So, John, my ... my sense, listening to what ... what Jim said is that ... I mean, it would
slow the traffic. I'm unclear with still the traffic is ... I frankly don't think a developer
would ever put houses there cause they wouldn't sell, and if he or she did, I don't think
anyone would buy them. So this Council has agreed in the past with the City staff
recommendations on other roads and arterials that we don't have multiple alleys. So I
guess I would ask the ... the same question of you, thinking then of other parts of town,
the percentage, um, of residential developments that are, uh, multiple capacity and dense,
and they gave that information to us in Council. It's far higher in most other parts of
town. This part of town is not from, you know, seems to be participating in having
multiple density housing like other parts of town. And so this is, um, so if you put houses
there, one, it sort of runs against what other (mumbled) of the town are doing in terms of
having, uh, higher density housing and affordable housing, plus the fact that I just don't
think that ... you can fit, um, houses on that. So I suspect you considered that. I'm going
to pick on you cause I'm turned toward you and you voted no (laughter) and ... (both
talking)
Dyer/ ...vote again though! (laughter)
Dobyns/ Um ... but um ... my sense is, you know, what Carolyn said, I ... I can't imagine any other
development ever going in here (mumbled) current developer's developed. Could you
comment on that?
Thomas/ (mumbled) ...first of all I think Jim has ... has some points, which ... which I
would ... I'm sympathetic toward. I think there are a number of streets in Iowa City, uh,
that have been designated arterials that have, um, both more intersections, more access
point by way of intersections, as well as driveways, uh, Rochester, Court are two
examples, uh, that come to mind. The Dodge /Governor, um, one -way streets
have ... they're basically residential streets that were designated as arterials.
Dobyns/ Uh huh.
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Thomas/ Um ... so I...I do think, and in fact the ... the east end of Court Street I think has kind of a
nice feel to it in part because of the multiple curb cuts and... intersections which are
closer together. Um ... as I said, I'm not ... I'm not advocating for single- family residences
there. I'm ... I'm primarily advocating for a ... a project that has, um, ac ... you know that
avails itself to both what's allowed and what's provisionally allowed in an RS -5 zone.
Um, and in fact when I walked the neighborhood I found that there was a multi - family at,
um ... uh, the corner of First Avenue and Stuart Court that until I walked by I didn't even
realize was a multi - family dwelling. Uh, so I think it's ... it's clearly possible, uh, to ... on
a 3.5 -acre site, uh, develop it in a way which require ... you know, will require smaller
buildings, but will ... would be feasible, and I ... I wouldn't ... I'm not concerned about the
additional curb cuts, because I think what we've ... what we've ended up with in a city, in
part, is a situation where on our arterials we say we don't want to provide access points.
And then what happens? The cars start driving faster. And then they drive ... asthey
drive faster, we say well we certainly don't want access points now because they're going
35 and 40 miles an hour. So we end up creating a situation and ... and some kind ... in
some cases exacerbating a situation where we are denying access on these streets, when if
we went with a more conventional approach of saying no we ... we actually want access
points, because access points slow down traffic (laughs) uh ... because we're also not just
talking about traffic, right? We're talking about pedestrians and bicyclists. So, slower
traffic is a good thing! Uh...
Payne/ I (both talking) I understand your rationale, but on the part of First Avenue where ... I'm
going to say going down the hill. Going down the hill towards the north, where there's
lots of curb cuts because of the duplexes, people don't go any slower there than they do
going up the hill where there's very few curb cuts. So I'm not sure that in reality it really
works. So I understand your thought process...
Thomas/ Uh huh.
Payne/ ...but I'm not sure that it really works. And maybe it's more the topography of the land
(both talking) down a hill and up a hill, or downhill and uphill (laughs)
Thomas/ Yeah, I mean, you know, topography and sight lines are going to ... are going to be an
issue, um ... but there is going to be an access plan on this street, right? I mean, whether
it's one access point or ... three access points, uh, there... there... there's going to be an
access point. Ac ... actually I would ... I'm ... I'm not convinced you couldn't enter into
this property from Hickory Trail. I ... I don't know. Uh ... but ... the point is that there are
going to be access points. And if we're talking about 11 residents, there's going to be a
steady flow of... of, or steady is probably an exaggeration (laughs) but there's going to
be, uh, the same number of cars entering and.... entering and leaving the site, um, whether
it's a ... nine driveways or one driveway. So we're ... we're not, you know, the safety
issue in some ways is, in my view, the same.
Dickens/ Just a general question for the ... the whole Commission. Uh, just up the street there is
the duplexes that back up to single - family homes and on the other side of the street it's all
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...was that taken into consideration that having duplexes back up to a single-family ... did
that weigh in the decision at all?
Eastham/ Um ... since you're looking at me, Terry (laughter and both talking) I'll ... I'll ... I
just ... (several talking) I'll just give my viewpoint! Uh ... to me the ... the critical thing
with this site is its ... its natural features and uh, so I ... I don't think building duplexes on
this site, uh ... to, uh ... actually, um, allows us to contin ... uh, to be ... to preserve those
natural features. I don't think it allows us to preserve the, uh ... uh, the stream corridor
and the, uh, the ... and the wetlands. If the developer can propose a plan that does
preserve that, I think that'd be a very interesting plan, but that ... from what I've heard so
far, to me it doesn't suggest that that's... that's a likely possibility, for this specific site.
Uh, and I'm willing to, you know, to ... urn ... to make adjustments to change where
buildings are and what types of buildings are and what the ... what they abut, uh, in order
to ... to preserve, uh, some of our natural environment. I'm not giving precedent to
natural environment. That's not ... that's not appropriate, but I think it is ... it is important,
and also the distance, another factor in this site, again, is the distance between the
buildings which will be along First Avenue and the buildings that are actually along
Cypress Court. It's considerable distance (mumbled). I don't know if that helps or not,
Terry.
Theobald/ Well one of the things I thought of too, because I've read it several times in both the
Comp ... in the Comp Plan in particular is ... they encourage... encouraging private
developers to include an open space ... in their plans. And that's what this does. But, you
know, you're getting two things for the price of one. You're... you're preserving that
stream corridor, you're getting, uh, keeping the trees, you're preserving the wetland, and
you're creating an open space with a multi - family building. So, I ... I like that. When I
look at the little tiny slices of zero -lot line, um, everybody has their, a little space, but
here ... here isn't ... here is another multi - family building with an open space included.
Thomas/ I guess one question I have with that is ... is ... one thing that I've been very interested in
are multi - family, in fact all our residential zones, is what I call usable open space, which
... as I... as I've begun to look at the lay of the land, I'm beginning to appreciate one of
the values of single - family residences is it has built in usable open space. We don't... in
most of our multi - family developments, we do not have ... that kind of amenity with ... with
the outdoor spaces, and when I look at the ... the open space that's created by this project,
it's ... it's open space! It's ... it's an ... it will be an open, grassy area, wild grass area, but I
wouldn't call it a usable open space. It's ... it's going to be, you know, three acres of...
grassy meadow, um, which ... you know, I have nothing against a grassy meadow (laughs)
but I ... I'm also interested in residents having access to what would be truly usable
outdoor space.
Theobald/ I would argue that it is usable, and any time a child goes out into a grassy ar ... area
and watches butterflies, it's a usable area. And I don't think we have enough of that. So
I ... in my mind it's usable.
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Throgmorton/ But what it would not be is public open space. It'd be privately -owned open
space, if...if (both talking) if that were the situation, right? I ... I'd like to kind of follow
up on that, this point, indirectly, if I could. Uh, but first I'd like to make sure that my
previous question... people don't interpret that as me arguing for ... what is it? Seven
single - family lots and four... whatever... whatever the total was, but it seems to me one
could have duplexes that have fewer curb cuts going out onto First Avenue. So, I just
want to be clear that that ... I see that as a possibility. But anyhow my ... my question
really goes to a claim that, uh, many neighbors have made, and I'd like to know how the
...the Commissioners respond to the claim. Uh, it goes like this — the site's been zoned
RS -5 for, I don't know, 25 or more years, and ... and people ask does that not constitute a
promise to neighbors who purchased homes in the area, that the land would be developed
RS -5, and they all, as I understand it, know that means single - family homes, townhouses,
duplexes, or small apartment buildings. And moreover, uh, does it not impose a moral
obligation on us to, uh, I can't read ... my eyes are messed up! I can't read! (laughter)
Does it, uh, impose a moral obligation on us to have it developed in a manner that, uh, is
consistent with, complies with, the RS -5 zone? So, I'm wondering how ... where are you,
the Commissioners respond to that concern that comes from residents and neighbors and
so on.
Martin/ I'd like to address that, as I am a real estate professional that I don't think any real...
realtor should make promises. Yes, something is zoned something. If...if nothing is
built there, there's no guarantee. You know, you look at ... there's a property, one realtor
once told someone that there was always going to be a wild turtle, uh, range, you know,
down by Terry Trueblood. You know, no one can make that promise. You just don't
know. What is the market going to say? You know, looking at Dodge Street, that land
across the street from HyVee. Or the ... the old HyVee. That was at one point zoned
neighborhood commercial. Then it was zoned for apartments. Back to commercial.
Back to something else. We just don't know! You know, so I don't know that you could
say that that's a promise to somebody, just because something is zoned that. And, I
mean ... you just ... you just don't ever know, I mean, you might be backing up to a
cornfield. It's not going to stay a cornfield forever! It might stay that way for 50 years,
but ... I mean, you just can't make that kind of a promise, I don't think. So ... in regards to
that question.
Swygard/ My thoughts on that are ... in ... somewhat in agreement with Phoebe's in that
something that's vacant potential... well, any property, any property, has the potential to
be rezoned. However ... I think that, when I looked at the Comp Plan for the Bluffwood
neighborhood, it mentioned neighbor... neighbor input, um, I think if we want citizen
involvement in developing our Comp Plans, um, that we need to, um ... be very careful
when we make changes.
Thomas/ Yeah, I ... I found this project very interesting in that I ... I've given some thought to this
whole notion of a planned development overlay, and what does it mean. And, my ... my
reading of it, prior to this project, was ... uh ... that it gave you greater flexibility in using
the building types that would be allied... allowed by the underlying zone. So I ... this was
kind of a learning experience for me, this ... this notion that no, actually you can use, uh,
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multi - family dwellings, uh, as well. That's in the mix! Um ... and in fact, as I mentioned,
there was a, um, you know, that multi - family on the corner of First and... First Avenue
and Court that, uh, Stuart Court that suggested you can in fact design multi - family, uh, in
a single - family neighborhood and have it fit, uh, within the larger context. But I do think
the ... the key thing here is ... is that ... um, and with a planned development overlay, it...it
reflects and honors the spirit of the underlying zone. Um, I ... I ... I certainly think that's
the case when you're talking about a ... a property which ... which is in a way kind of
remnant of this neighborhood, as it's been ... as was first laid out many years ago. Um,
and that there's a great deal of creativity in the planned development overlay to explore
other ways of site planning, um, which I found very exciting when I read about the
planned development overlay. It means you don't have to do a ... a subdivision lauding of
the property. You can create, um, what I find to be some of the more interesting ways of
configuring residences, um, where you create social spaces, uh, by ... by clustering. And
that was another interesting aspect of this. I ... the notion of a cluster as a single building,
um ... you know, it...it...we may ... we may agree that it's an acceptable approach, but to
me it... it contradicts the notion of a cluster, and when I look at, you know, being a... a
gathering together of...of discrete items, um, and if you look at typically how cluster
development is represented, it's shown in that way. It's, you know, you're not seeing
single - family residences on their own lot. You're seeing houses which are configured,
um, without respect to lot lines. Um, which ... which I found var ... very interesting as an
alternative, and I think ... and this ... this also seems to be industry -wide, that there is kind
of a ... what ... what the industry is referring to as a `missing middle,' you know, that we
have ... uh, many housing opportunities for single - family residences at a low density, and
then we have many housing opportunities at higher densities, but what we're missing is
good development with duplexes, townhouses, and small apartment buildings. And I...
based on what I know of Iowa City, I think that applies to Iowa City, and I ... I would very
much like to see the planned development overlay used to create those opportunities.
Eastham/ More extensively perhaps. Uh, I want to ask John Yapp ... John, do you ... do you
happen to know when the sensitive areas ordinance was adopted?
Yapp/ Mid- 1990s. I can't recall the specific year.
Eastham/ About 1995, mid- 1990s.
Throgmorton/ It was in 95 because I was on the Council when it was adopted.
Eastham/ Okay. Okay. So that was a change actually in the development standards that applied
to all zones in the city.
Yapp/ Where there are sensitive (both talking)
Eastham/ Where there are sensitive areas, right. Right, okay. So, Jim, to your question, what is
the... City's obligation to peop ... to folks who are living in RS -5 zones. Um ... and in my
view, those ob ... the, uh, the ... the standards and regulations pertaining to development in
those zones have changed over time, and uh, and I think, uh ... I don't think I can ... ignore
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people's concerns, but I think it's certainly something that I ... that I have to recognize
that the standards have changes, and uh, this ... this particular 3.5 acre parcel... cannot be
developed as it could have been 20 years ago.
Theobald/ Well, one of the ... back to answer his question too (both talking) One of...there's a
line in the Comp Plan, the question seems to be how and where to strike a balance
between preservation and change. You know, it recognizes this change, especially when
all through it it's talking about more diverse housing options and um ... it ... but there is a
difficult balance. When, you know, when one weighs over the other is ... um ... very hard
to...
Martin/ (both talking) I'd like to go back to ... you had... somebody asked about, um, taking into
consideration the duplexes further up the street. So this relates to that, but I do agree
with, um, what Paula had said too about including, um, residents in the decisions. Um,
development's going to happen there one way or the other, whatever it's going to be. So
in my mind I'm thinking, the smartest way, what's the ... the kind of most, um, pleasing
way for that to happen. Looking at those duplexes, you know, taking those into
consideration, there's no break. You know, it's... there's, I don't know how many curb
cuts, but it's all concrete. You know? It's ... you're fronted with concrete, and then the
houses and then in the back. You know, to me that's not as pleasing. And mostly
because I'm not a huge fan of an inordinate amount of concrete! Um ... but ... you know,
I .... I just feel that what this ... at least the design we've been presented with ... makes so
much sense for that area. Um ... in having the, you know, the residents' input that's in
that vicinity, I do think is important; however, ultimately we're humans and we mostly
hate change, even if we're going to like it, we don't... we don't like it to begin with. I
mean, we didn't like the idea of a ped mall when that was built in the 70s. Well, now we
rely on it. I mean, I just feel like that's ... you know, yes you want input, but we also need
to take it with a grain of salt, as well, and kind of think about the larger picture. I mean,
that's kind of what we're here for. But ... so...
Hayek/ So ... I ... let, I just want to say something to Jim. 1, um ... I ... you know, one of the things
that makes it hard once a process like this reaches the Council level is that while we...
while it is tempting for us to talk about what we'd like to see there, and we can delineate
between duplexes and multi - family and single - family and townhouses, you know, really
once it reaches the Council, it's a choice between what's proposed and what the
developer can do under current zoning. I mean, absent the developer saying I'm starting
over. I'm going to go through either a CZA or an OPD or some process that starts the
process anew and... and causes a... a... reset button and a whole new set of negotiations
and concept discussions... the... the choice really for us is, you know, is it this or ... or...
or ... and I ... or is it what the developer could do by rights, which ... and I think you just
have to assume for part of the ... at least for our, uh, decision - making purposes that the
developer would do whatever he can do under the current zoning. Um, can you... can
you, is there anything you can offer us, as... as to those, it's essentially a binary set of
choices once it gets to this level.
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Dyer/ Well I've been struck in reading the comments and listening to the comments of the
neighborhood things like, we don't need any more multi - family on that street. It's the
gateway to our neighborhood. It doesn't come with the ... with the house that you buy.
Um, that you can chose what happens on other, specifically what happens on other pieces
of property. Um, I sort of ..follow the ... notion that if you don't want it developed, buy
it!
Throgmorton/ If... if I could for a second I want to respond to what Phoebe started off with. I
want to thank all of you for, you know, addressing my question. Uh, I think you're
exactly right that if a realtor promised neighbors that that land would never be developed,
that realtor would be out of line. Likewise, if the realtor or anybody else promised them
that it would ... might never be rezoned, or that, uh, the ... the specifics of the RS -5 zone
ordinance would never change, that person would be out of line because that person has
no control over those things. Uh ... but in this instance, the property's been zoned RS -5
for 25 years. And that means there are a variety of ways in which it could be built
consistently with the RS -5 zone. It's not just one possibility. Like the developer could
blend in duplexes, townhouses, a small apartment building ... si ... a single - family home —
there is a mix of things that could conceivably go in there. Right? So we ... I don't want
to get in a tit - for -tat match, cause I remember what you said earlier, but I just want to
kind of get it out on the table that there are a variety of ways in which the land could be
developed, consistently with RS -5. That ... that's all (both talking)
Hayek/ No, I ... I don't disagree, but I think for the ... for the Council's purpose, I mean, if...if
...if this is rejected, um ... and unless the developer comes back, the developer can
proceed ... and there are parameters, and ... and so there could be a variety of ways the
developer could proceed, but we don't have control over that, as long as the site plan
is ... is vetted and so on and so forth. So ... so we lose control over it I ... I guess and
maybe ... and so that ... that's what I'm looking for. A little bit of guidance from...
Eastham/ Well (both talking) Excuse me, John. I've often times thought, or wished as a
Planning and Zoning Commission Member that we had a... a little bit more flexible way
of trying to work out development, uh, plans for specific areas, as well as some
(mumbled) and I think, uh, Matt, in my view, the Commission is pretty much in the
position you described the Council as being in, when we get a request for rezoning, it
usually comes with one plan and we're trying to figure out, can it make minor
modifications and they're usually very minor modifications, and accept it, or not accept it
and we don't know what's going to happen next. And I, uh, I'm not satisfied with that...
this process. Um, and I think you and Jim are ... talking about the, you know, that maybe
the Council's not terribly satisfied with the process we have now either. If the Council
wish .... wishes to indicate to the Commission that you'd like more flexibility on the part
of the Commission in looking at alternatives, uh, and we could ... (mumbled) developer's
willing, you know, to ... to work the Commission and the (mumbled), that's fine. I do
note one thing. Uh, the ... that was important to me, it's always important to me — the
staff actually recommended this, uh ... uh, that the City adopt this ... this developmental
plan here. Staff doesn't do anything lightly. Uh, they always consider a huge number of
factors, which actually never even get to the Commission. So, uh ... um ... and I ... I
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personally would just ask the ... the Council if.. if there's not support, if there's not
a ... uh, six votes to ... to do this, this plan, that the Council Members who are ... who don't
favor this plan, indicate what ... what they would like to see, which the, uh ... uh, the
Commission and the developer could then guide them in, uh, making some future
(mumbled) future decisions. If that's possible. There may not be agreement on the part
of the Council about what you would actually like to see so...
Dickens/ We'd have to do that at the public hearing. Cause we really can't...
Hayek/ Okay. Well, um...
Thomas/ I (both talking) I just had one comment. Um ... and I ... I also don't... personally like
looking at things in that sort of binary way, um, and I also try to always, uh, frame my
thoughts with respect to the City's Comprehensive Plan, but I do find it interesting,
anecdotally on this project, that I think the last time we had this kind of, um, consultation
may have been on Linn/Bloomington, if I'm ... I'm not mistaken. That al ... also happens,
well first of all with that project, I can recall asking staff, and at that time I was a resident.
Could this be done on just the two properties along Linn, and I was told no, it couldn't
be. Uh, well... that... that's actually what's being built, um, as ... a scaled -back project
along the two Linn- facing properties. Um, but it's also where we have a ... this, a
property owner, Jesse Allen, who I have a lot of confidence in ... as a developer. Um, I
think ... he will explore other alternatives and come up with a solution, which will meet
what we've described to be our objectives, in terms of preserving the sensitive areas, uh,
and you know, addressing issues of safety along First Avenue, and develop a project
which will satisfy the neighbors. So I ... I do think, um ... this is a 3.5 -acre site. It's ... it's
possible to develop it in a way where ... where it will be a win -win, which I think Linn/
Bloomington was a win -win. And so I'm ... I'm feeling that, urn ... you know, and I ... I
agree with how we're ... it's an awkward position we're in on the Commission, or on the
Council, where it's sort of an up or down, um, situation, but I ... I do think there are other
possibilities on this site, and I think Jesse will find them.
Hayek/ Okay. Well, it's been a good hour -long meeting on this. I know everyone wants to get
home to their families. Um... so I thank all of the Commissioners for their service and for
coming down here, and for staff for being here, and other interested parties (laughs) See
you out there! So, uh, this will come up on ... uh, August 19th. Stay tuned! And have a
good evening. Thank you!
Mims/ Thanks, everybody!
Throgmorton/ Thanks!
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work session of July 30, 2014.