HomeMy WebLinkAbout2017-11-21 TranscriptionPage 1
Council Present: Botchway, Cole, Dickens, Mims, Taylor, Thomas, Throgmorton
Staff Present: Fruin, Monroe, Dilkes, Fruehling, Hightshoe, Knoche, Laverman,
Matherly, Howard, Seydell-Johnson, Havel, Rummel, Grier, Dulek, L.
Ford, Miklo, W. Ford, Greer
Others Present: Nelson, Stewart (UISG)
Lusk Avenue code review:
Throgmorton/ ....for the evening of November 21, 2017. And the first topic is to discuss code
review in light of the Lusk Avenue project. I want to say a few comments, uh, in
advance before we begin discussing it. The November 91h Information Packet contains a
memo I sent to Council Members and to Manville Heights neighbors, via Karen
Southard. The memo frames our discussion about events pertaining to the "Kinnick
house," at 101 Lusk Avenue. I want to read the opening paragraphs of that memo so that
people watching on TV and others in the audience, uh, will have a sense of what's
contained in that memo. So I'll quote a few sentences here. "The events have been
painful for many members of the Iowa City community, and costly for some. Moreover
the experience has led some members of the community to lose trust in the City Council
and staff. In my judgment, we need to discuss the events in public so that the community
can see we are exercising our responsibility to learn from experience, to consider the
views of the public, and to initiate changes in City code or practices if appropriate. With
that in mind, the purpose of our discussion tonight will be to consider possible changes in
the City code and practices, and thereby minimize or avoid the occurrence of similar
situations in the future. We will not be second guessing the technical actions and
judgments of individual City staff members or relitigating decisions rendered by the
Board of Adjustment, the Board of Appeals, or the District Court. Likewise, we will not
be discussing claims of misbehavior on the part of individual staff members." So that's a
quote from the memo. The memo goes on to describe and explain the minimal role the
Council played in the sequence of events associated with the Lusk Avenue house. It also
briefly summarizes steps I took after the District Court's ruling back in March. These
steps included having conversations with many Manville Heights' neighbors, uh, some of
you probably sitting over here right now, as well as their attorney and two members of
the Board of Adjustment. The memo also presents six claims I heard during these
conversations. They're my understanding of the claims I heard anyhow. We also
received an email from Karen Southard on September the 19°i which summarizes four
provisions of the City code which in herjudgment and that of other neighbors `grave
either .... have been either chronically misinterpreted or chronically bypassed in cases of
`in -fill construction." With regard to all these .... all, all of the claims, the ones contained
in my memo and the ones Karen submitted to us, I asked the staff to suggest possible
amendments to the City code and practices, or to indicate why they conclude, why they
think that changes should not be made. The staff did so in a memo dated November the
16", from Geoff Fruin our City Manager and Eleanor Dilkes our City Attorney. If we
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conclude that changes should be made, we should direct the staff to make those changes.
I think we should also remember that any changes we instruct staff to make are oriented
toward the future, not toward the past, and could well apply to other neighborhoods in the
city. So I'd suggest, as we go through this discussion, that we deal with the claims one
by one in sequence, and I .... I assume we've all read staffs memo so we have a sense of
what's in that memo and .... you know, that material can be brought to bear on this
discussion. So .... is that, if...is that okay with ... with everybody? All right. So the first
claim that I heard is, "There is a substantial disconnect between the Comprehensive
Plan's language and the zoning code language as it pertained to the proposed structure."
According to this claim there needs to be a consistent and honest interpretation of the
code, one which treats community, safety, neighborhood, and prosperity as being, excuse
me, as being meaningful. So, uh, what do you folks think about that claim?
Thomas/ That's a tough one! (laughs) It's certainly one that .... that, uh, you know, I've been
challenged by si.... since, um, living in Iowa City. You know in looking at the zoning
code, it is stated that the purpose of the zoning code is to implement the City .... Iowa
City's Comprehensive Plan in a manner that promotes the health, safety, order,
convenience, prosperity, and general wel.... welfare of the citizens, and I certainly felt...
have felt over those years, um, at times that some of the language in the Comprehensive
Plan, uh, was not adequately reflected in our zoning code, and if .... if the
Comprehensive ... or if the zoning code is intended to implement the Comprehensive Plan,
it....it always seemed to me that, um, that, you know, staff and the Council would be
concerned with wherever there was that misalignment, and uh, I think given what I
consider to be the open-endedness of the ... the zoning code, I .... I put a little bit more
weight into the Comprehensive Plan, because I felt that, um, there clearly was some....
some, you know, area there where interpretation, uh, with regard to questions of
compatibility and so forth, um, given the lack of more specific language in the zoning
code would require interpretation of the Comprehensive Plan and its intent. Uh, now I'm
at a position where in seeing especially some of the, you know, the way, uh, the .... the
Lusk incident has played out, that we need to put much more emphasis on articulating
the .... the zoning code as clearly as possible to try to at least close the gap between the
language of the Comprehensive Plan and the, um, and the zoning code. So I certainly
sympathize with, you know, those who have felt this sense of what was described as
disconnect. I.....I sometimes think of it as a misalignment, um, but it does seem the
remedy at this point is to .... is to work toward a much more articulate, uh, language in our
zoning code so that I think we .... we can .... with that language, all of us as a community
agree that it matches the aspirations and goals of the Comprehensive Plan.
Throgmorton/ Anyone else?
Cole/ Well I guess I'll weigh in. Um, you know I think one of the issues that really comes up for
all of us is when this code was written, um, did any of our staff members think that they
would try ... be trying to prevent the building of a mini-Kinnick Stadium in a residential
neighborhood. Um, that is the type of thing that was very difficult to forecast, and I think
in this particular case, we were brought with a situation where we had to, you know, they
had to essentially the code at is ..... as is. So to your point, Jim, about this disconnect, I
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think one of the difficult things is what happens when the application of the
administrative code, um, essentially conflicts with a lot of the broad language of the
Comprehensive Plan. I think it means we need to look at a fix, and I think what I would
like for purposes of our discussion tonight is to .... is to identify, um, a .... a regulatory fix
with substantial input from the neighbors and from the community that will match the
community's vision for the neighborhood, and I think that's what we have to do is look
forward. I think, Jim, as you point out, we're not here to talk about past actions, um, but
when there are those disconnects that you can't foresee, you try to work with it, you try to
fix it, and get those back into line.... alignment. So that's what I see we're really doing
here tonight is essentially recalibrate, uh, the code to align with the Comprehensive Plan.
Botchway/ Yeah, I guess I'll weigh in here as well. (clears throat) So, John, I agree with a lot of
what you were saying, urn .... it does seem like this is I won't say it has come up a lot, but
I know that it is, you know, it's come up several times and it .... to me has brought a lot of
community angst, you know, to our table and to our discussion. The .... the biggest
question and I can even, you know, I kept coming back to is how, you know, how do we,
how do we do this. I think tonight, I mean, to simply look at it from this particular
situation. That's.... that's the reason why we have some of the staff recommendations
and what we're going to deliberate on today. But ultimately I do think we need to talk
about this from a .... a greater aspect, because I .... I worry, and I don't wanna, you know, I
don't want to start to talk more about this than is necessary, but I worry that, you know,
another situation is lurking out there, and so how do we have that conversation, I mean,
do we need to revisit the Comprehensive Plan, I mean I .... I know that that was a lot of
work, and so I'm not trying to say, um, you know, I'm not trying to say that work wasn't
important or, you know, that .... those things at the time weren't important, but something
needs to happen because I feel like .... at least for me in my time on Council, when it's
come to issues where misalignment or there's been a disconnect, it's been.... it's been a
battle at times and, you know, I don't think we're in the position .... or I don't think we
should put ourselves in the position, or the community in a position of constantly having
to come with that community angst and distrust when that misalignment or disconnect
occurs. So, again, for tonight I'm focused on, you know, what we need to look at as far
as the recommendations staff has presented, but I do think, and maybe we'll kick this to a
work session or something along those lines, we need to have a deeper conversation as
far as what that looks like because I know you brought it up, at least initially. I know,
Jim, you brought it up a couple of times as well, but we'll .... we'll need to revisit that
because I....I think that in general, um, folks feel some type of way about when there is
that, um, understanding or lack of understanding from, you know, where we are saying
that we're ... the Comprehensive Plan is and where the, uh, zoning language is.
Taylor/ I felt that a ...... a major difficulty was, uh, just a general, um, the interpretation of the
codes, uh, posed a big problem with a number of..more than one of the codes, uh, so
interpretation was, uh, a major problem.
Mims/ I would.... agree. I think.....I think we've looked at a number of situation, um, over the
last, I don't know, number of years I would say, even since I've been on Council, that
things come up at various times, whether it's with rezonings, um, or, you know, building
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permit or something that people don't expect, and you see that disconnect between the
Comp Plan and zoning. I think one of the challenges is, you know, the Comp Plans are
written at a much more, kind of general aspirational, uh, level and lots of times you've
got .... a lot of different kinds of zoning within those areas, and ..... I think sometimes
you're gonna have .... you're gonna have locations that maybe don't match with that
Comp Plan. I don't see that as being the case here. I think this one in particular, um, is
more of a case of how can we properly regulate in -fill, um, so that it fits with what's
already there. Um, I've got a couple particular ideas that I'd like to see us look at that
kind of relate to this one, but.....one of the things I would say is because the Council
....one of the big things that a council does is zoning and rezoning. I would encourage
that we look going forward at taking some time, um, either through work sessions or
training or whatever to.....to spend more time, and maybe we do it area by area across the
community, of really kind of going back into those Comp Plans in a little bit more detail
and then looking at what .... what is the zoning that is available, at least at this time,
within those different parts of the community, um, because I do think over time you, I
mean, you get the community involved. They do a whole new Comp Plan. Well just
because you do a whole new Comp Plan doesn't mean you rezone within that part of the
community. And I think that in and of itself can ..... can kind of increase some of that
disconnect. Um, so I think there is that disconnect, but I also think there's some....
potentially some significant regulatory things that we need to look at, and it's... it's the
same sort of stuff we've talked about in different parts of the community, um, and it's not
just related to Manville Heights, but with some of this in -fill of, for example, people
coming in and tearing down two or three adjacent buildings and combining properties
and putting up a huge, you know, apartment building if the zoning were to allow that, but
doesn't fit in. So I ... those are some things I think we need to .... to be looking at going
forward.
Throgmorton/ Yeah, I want to pick up on your, uh, your point of..uh, Susan. One of the
challenges is that we adopted this Comprehensive Plan in 2013, but all the zoning
regulations are the .... the ones that apply, have..... were created before 2013 and then have
been amended at various points in time. I don't know exactly when. We'd have to look
at that more carefully. So .... it's not really surprising to find that .... in certain instances
there are disconnects between the Comprehensive Plan and the zoning code. And
there're all sorts of unique circumstances that can, uh, can occur. That said, we've
definitely struggled with this relationship between the Comp Plan and zoning code, in
several specific instances over time, and .... the zone .... zoning code is the regulatory tool.
It's what counts in law, not the Comprehensive Plan so much, right? So .... that for me.
does .... means that we should try to get the zoning code in alignment with the
Comprehensive Plan, not the other way around. So, in other words, the zoning code
should be a tool for helping us achieve the ambitions, aspirations of the Comprehensive
Plan. So I think when we get to the, uh, near the end of this discussion, we'll be able to
talk a bit about the, uh, types of code revisions that the staff suggests as possibilities that
we might want to, uh, act on as we go forward.
Dickens/ I don't remember if it was brought up, but I had a long meeting with Karen and then I
met with Geoff to discuss a lot of the things that we've discussed, and one of the things
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she brought up was an automatic trip when a project is changing sizes. So I don't know
if that's something that could be put in or whether that's too vague. It was just one of
the....one of the things that was brought up during that (both talking)
Throgmorton/ (both talking) ....that's the third claim (both talking) Yeah.
Dickens/ Oh, I missed that one.
Throgmorton/ I'll bring that up.
Dickens/ All right. And .... that was.....the other ones are later on.
Thomas/ I felt the, uh, the analysis Opticos did recently on the, um, the zoning in the Northside,
where they took the zoning and showed what that actually translates to in terms of
building volume and mass.
Throgmorton/ What could happen (both talking)
Thomas/ ...what could happen if you just took those setbacks, which you know regulate to a large
extent then parking, what's possible, they ... they showed in .... in (laughs) three
dimensions what exactly could happen and I think many people when they saw that were,
my god (laughs) you know, that's possible in our zoning code? So that could ..... that
could be a... I think as a strategy or approach toward understanding outcomes is
something that could be very useful moving forward. And I think will be, uh, as it
pertains to this, as well as, you know, where we've started to conduct, uh, form based
code studies.
Throgmorton/ Yeah, I .... so I think we'll come back to this topic when we get to the very end of
our discussion. Okay? So we can move on to the second claim. All right, the second
claim is large entertainment venues such as the Kinnick house should have their own
classification in the zoning code. To continue, at a minimum the definition of single-
family home should be revised, clarified to ensure that no such structures.... that such
structures are not built in RS -5 districts. So, I just drove by that house, or the one that's
under construction, a couple days ago and it's clearly out of scale with the other houses
that are immediately nearby. So .... I just acknowledge that. So it....it's easy to see why
one would say we should just have a definition for entertainment .... structures oriented
toward entertainment uses and keep them out of RS -5 districts. I don't think it's that
simple though. So, anyhow, would any of you like to comment on that?
Mims/ Yeah, I mean when I read.....when I read staff s response to that, um, I would agree with
your last comment. I ..... I think that's much more difficult than it might immediately, uh,
be perceived. People are building all kinds of single-family dwellings. Um, I mean as
mentioned here from entertainment venues people with, you know, sports courts and
multiple bathrooms and, you know, just .... I think it'd be really, really hard from a
regulatory standpoint to .... define what is a single-family home. Um, you can't make the
distinction whether people are going to live in it, or not live in it. Um, you know the
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number of bathrooms, um, you've got some people who, you know, really love to
entertain, so they're gonna have a.....a, um, commercial type kitchen almost
because .... or .... or actually a commercial type kitchen because they do so much
entertaining, etc. So I think trying to (mumbled) if people want to give us suggestions
and ideas of how to define that, I'd certainly be interested and willing to look at it, but I
think trying to actually classify that is .... is a real problem. I go back to some of my
earlier comments. I think looking at how a new structure fits into the neighborhood even
relative to the size of the buildings that are already there, urn..... there may be some ways
we can work that into it, cause I think that is a.....certainly a part of what caused the
consternation here, not all of it but that was part of it.
Taylor/ I agree with Susan on that, uh, and that kind of goes back to our original (mumbled)
discussion and the zoning and how .... how it fits in with the neighborhood. I .... I just
found interesting that in our recent discussions we were talking about defining the rental
properties and .... and, uh, actually stating size of bathroom, size of living spaces, etc. But
that .... it is difficult to do that for a private residence and .... and that's what the question
was here, you know, what is it really. The .... the family itself had said that this is for
single-family use and how can we question that. Uh, so we can't really define the size,
uh, that would be difficult, uh, but with rentals we can. So I found that kind of hard to
accept to, uh, define whether it fits in with the neighborhood, the surrounding area.
Botchway/ So I would agree, and I would say that my only .... my only thought though was
thinking about some of the recommendations that we're going to be looking at later on.
The timeline of those recommendations, but also thinking about how, um, and Eleanor,
you may have to help me with this. You know, from a code standpoint, we're talking
about the definition behind, you know, the actual structure of the entertainment venue
and making its own classification, at least that's what this is pointing out. But then I was
just thinking of the process, you know, could you separate and say this particular
structure, by definition, would have to go through a different process, and that made me
feel a little bit different only about maybe making it its own classification, and so going
back to some of the examples. If somebody is going to put a movie theater in their
backyard, I would want them to go through maybe a different process because of the fact
that it's.... gonna cause issues to the other neighbors, and I .... I've been looking at
Facebook comments, reading different, um, emails and everything else, and you know
the .... the question that struck me in general was .... how would you feel if this was in your
own backyard. I mean I think that's a question that many of the neighbors here are out
here tonight, and I was just thinking of if somebody was to do this or .... (mumbled) just
using the examples that were given in the memo. If somebody was to do this in their own
home, backyard, whatever the case may be, I would have a problem with it. I mean with
a young child and somebody blaring, you know, Goonies or something like that at 9:00 at
night, that would be a problem for me, and so .... I, is there a way that we can differentiate
between ....I mean we're talking about size and scale to other buildings, and the process
by which somebody has to go through, or is that something that is a part of that overlay
conversation?
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Dilkes/ I think you still .... you still have to back up and define what the criteria are that identify
that particular structure that has to go through this new process. So I think you're back to
having to identify, you know, the bathroom size, what kind of uses are within the home,
um, and one of the ..... one of the things about administrative, um, decision making is that
you have to specify what .... what it is you want the administrator to look at. Um, so, I
mean you can certainly go through that exercise, but I think it's going to be a difficult
exercise, and when you look at the alternatives that are proposed at the end of me .... at the
end of the memo, which are really geared toward determining if the structure fits within
the neighborhood, judging that structure.....as it appears in that setting. As opposed what
is in ... there, how much .... how many bedrooms they have, how many toilets they have,
what kind of kitchen they have. I think that's where the problem is going to come in by
using the classification system.
Thomas/ Yeah, I.....I think the, some .... the range of remedies that are listed at the back of the
memo all have that form based aspect to it, and I think that's.... that's the direction that,
um, is being taken to try to address the short -comings of a more use spaced zoning code
approach. Um, you know I would add to that, site related issues, uh, as well as density. I
mean those are, seems to me to be three elements. What's.... what's the .... what's the
structure look like, uh, what's.... what's the intensity of use, and what constraints, if any,
are applied to the site itself in terms of the amount of parking, the usable outdoor space,
things of that sort, all of which can constrain as is mentioned at the back of the memo,
um, what that .... what the form of that building is. But if you're in a ..... if you're in a
single-fam.... or what's defined as a single-family neighborhood, that in .... in and of itself
I think suggests certain building types. You know we heard the idea of house form as
governing, um, the form, you know, that they ... you know a duplex can, as long as it looks
like a house, does anyone object to the .... you know, the fact that it's two units rather than
one? That .... that sort of consideration. Um, but it seems to me that that .... the exterior
quality of the building is, at the form of it, is .... is what's of concern and then it's a
question of the neighborhood deciding are we talking about a historic district, are we
talking about a form based code, how .... how.....how do we define that form in a more
rigorous, or a not so rigorous way.
Throgmorton/ I'd like to make a request of all of our Council Members. When we refer to `the
memo,' please be clear about whether you're referring to the one I wrote or the one the
staff wrote, so that people who are listening will.....
Thomas/ I meant the staff (both talking)
Botchway/ I guess going back, sorry, I mean, going back to the administrative use situation.
Whose .... who, what .... whose burden does that fall on? Is that the individual justifying
the use or as we come in, from an administrative use standpoint, going back to the many
bathrooms or whatever the case may be, who has to justify that use? Because I guess
that's another part in my notes where I'm.....I'm stating that the individual owner has to
justify the use as it pertains to, if they want to have 20 bathrooms, um, in their homes,
you know, from a ..... from our.....from our administrative standpoint, checking that. I
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still feel like that's the justification of the homeowner to come in and have that
conversation.
Dilkes/ So you're envisioning some kind of system where if. ... if your .... if the structure you're
building in a single-family zone has more than four bedroom.... or more than four
bathrooms, or more than so many.....toilet fixtures, or has a theater, or has a .... whatever,
then somehow there would have to be a different review process for that?
Botchway/ Exactly! Thank you, Eleanor, for articulating that cause I was struggling a little bit.
Dilkes/ I mean I ... I think .... I think, I mean you could do that, but I .... I mean you could do that!
But I .... I think you're going to struggle with identifying what those are, but you can
certainly go through that exercise.
Throgmorton/ So this is an alternative we could consider if we get to the .... the end of the staff's
memo and start talking about the various changes to the zoning code that we would prefer
to act on. Maybe we'd rather act on them, one of them, rather than this kind of detail of
nuancing of. ... uh, of particular buildings. And I'm thinking also that, uh, some of the
points that have been made just now re .... connect with the trip -wire part of the third
claim, you know, like is there something about the size of the building, proposed
building, relative to the existing neighborhood or something about the specifics with
regard to the internal use that ... should signal .... that some, you know, alert! (laughs)
Somethin's goin' wrong here, it's ... it's out ..... it's out of, it's inconsistent with the
neighborhood. Something different needs to be done.
Cole/ Maybe if I could comment on that, Jim. I think so much of this is going to be addressed by
a scale and design modification. Go back in time and instead of a Kinnick house, if we
had the same house with the same number of bathrooms, the same number of amenities
that looked like an ordinary house. My supposition is is I don't think there would have
been quite the reaction that there was. You all had the same reaction that I did, which is
you think, `Kinnick?' You think `tailgating;' you think, you know, `let's have a lot of
fun,' um, but that's a function of the design. That's ... and of course the scale, um, but
I .... I think had it been a more traditional design, I don't know that there would have been
the reaction that there was. So I'm hoping that as we go forward with this, and I think
with the trip -wire concept, I think Eleanor brings up a really good point, I mean, our staff
are the ones that actually have to interpret this. And they don't want to have to get into
sort of deciding what the subjective intentions, like who really is going to occupy it as a
single-family residence. So much of it's going to be dictated by the scale of it and I think
the design, that I think should be able to address a lot of these issues, and do .... excuse
me, do it in such a way that they'll be very clear standards that the staff won't have to,
you know, sort of subjectively sort of think about, uh, what the proposed homeowners
want to do with the property.
Taylor/ I agree with you, Rockne, on .... on the size and the scale of the building. Um, because
previously on that site was just a smaller kind of cottage home in the surrounding area,
but there's also some large, very beautiful homes in that neighborhood, but I think there
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were other things that triggered the neighbors to be concerned besides just the size and
the scale and the design of the building. There were many of the codes that they were
concerned about, the fire code, the plumbing code, etc. So I think there were other
triggers that should of sent up red flags.
Throgmorton/ Yeah and possible use havin' to do with football games (both talking)
Taylor/ Exactly.
Throgmorton/ ....number of people comin' to the house and parking and .... and traffic and those
kinds of things. Yeah.
Mims/ I think when we, you know, come back to just focusing on this, you know, second point
of large entertainment venues having their own classification. I guess I'll go back to
what I said in the beginning. I don't think we want to try and do a separate classification.
I think it's going to be really difficult, if not impossible, to .... come up with the standards,
okay? I think we also will probably could very easily end up, and it's not that I'm
worried about lawsuits, but why go there if you don't have to, um, but somebody who is
building, let's just say a large single-family home and somehow they .... trip one of these
standards that calls it a .... an entertainment venue, um, so we have a problem there. I
think, I mean I think there was another thing .... a number of things that caused problems
with this particular project. One of them was the size .... and design. Okay? As I
mentioned earlier, I would like to see us look at regulations for in -fill that, whether it's
through form based code or some other mechanism, that .... and staff can write it better
than I can suggest it, but .... let's say for example that you're going to have something that
is more than 50 or 60% bigger than the average homes within close proximity. I mean so
immediately you're getting to something that is substantially different size -wise, you
know, so then it comes back to how does it fit into the neighborhood, and again,
sometimes this has happened because of taking adjacent lots and people get more square
footage on the land so they can build a bigger house, but it doesn't fit in the
neighborhood. It is damaging to the character of the neighborhood. So I'd like to try and
tackle it from that perspective, at least partially.
Throgmorton/ I agree, I think we'd be better off dealin' with it through changes in the zoning
code.
Mims/ And there's other (both talking) yeah, and I think there's other things, like, Kingsley, you
mentioned, you know, building a theater in their backyard. Well I'm assuming that if
they're actually building something, that's going to have other code issues they're gonna
have to deal with, and noise issues are always, you know, those are covered under other
ordinances as well.
Throgmorton/ Anybody else want to speak about this particular... topic? Okay, let's go to the
third claim. The third claim is Manville Heights neighbors learned about the proposed
construction of the "Kinnick house" almost by accident. Transparency and inclusion are
necessary, but in the views of neighbors, neither of these occurred in this case. So the
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suggestion I heard was perhaps there should be trip -wire provisions that trigger, first,
when neighbors must be notified that a property owner has applied for a building permit;
and second, when a good -neighbor meeting must be held before an in -fill building permit
can be issued.
Mims/ I think there's major problems there. Um.....I think you take any .... I mean, let's say you
take any ordinary in -fill lot with an ordinary.....design for a house of a size that fits, I say
fits. That can be subjective (laughter) um, and all of a sudden you've gotta have a good -
neighbor policy, a.....a good -neighbor meeting? And you've gotta have notification. I
think if. ... I guess my feeling is if we can approach this from either form based code, you
know, scale perspective, I think we take away an awful lot of these issues in the first
place. I mean I think if .... if I were living in that neighborhood and had not known about
this, I would be as angry as I'm sure those people were, but I think the frustration is not
because a house was built. It was the size and the scale and design and the beliefs that
this is going to be, you know, an entertainment venue, not really a single-family home.
So, if you can take care of it with these other mechanisms, I just think we have to be
really careful that we're not putting in some trip -wire issues that are creating all kinds of,
um, work..... for staff and developers.... that 99% of the time nobody cares or.....you
know .... I"m living in an area right now where there's a whole bunch of in -fill going on.
I mean, the area was subdivided and platted a year and a half, maybe two years ago, and
every two or three weeks lately there's a new house going up. I .... I don't expect to be
notified.... you know, and I think it would be a waste of people's time to .... to have to do
that. What's bringing this obviously is .... the exception, so we have to figure out ways to
deal with this kind of....and I really think scale is the biggest issue and the biggest... the
easiest way maybe for us to address it.
Cole/ But I think it can be an effective interim measure, I mean I think of for example our form
based code for the Northside. You know, that's a two to three-year pro, uh, process,
where we have to really, you know, dig deep into the neighborhood to do all this
research. So I think as an interim measure for extraordinary cases it could be helpful,
um, and we could do it by .... if it significantly, I don't want to get into what the
percentages would be. There'd be some significantly higher percentage that we would
work with. So it wouldn't happen in the vast majority of the cases. I think if we could
just do that as an interim measure, I think that would be a very effective tool.....till we
get the form based code.
Thomas/ Yeah, L...I would agree to that ... that, and what came to my mind would be demolition
permits, you know, where an existing structure is being torn down. Uh, that, you know,
and again as you said, Susan, we're.....we're not there yet (laughs) and so I know in our
neighborhood if. ... if we see a demolition permit, there's trauma. I (laughs) I, at every
step of the way, I would like to reduce any opportunity or instance where trauma is
possible.
Throgmorton/ Trauma's not a good thing (both talking)
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Thomas/ Trauma is not a good thing. It .... it's a very ... very troubling thing and it certainly
erodes that notion of trust, which I think is right at the core of everything, you know, the
City, staff, and Council should be aiming to reduce.
Botchway/ I .... I do think this brings up something that .... I .... I like the good -neighbor policy,
you know, I think that frankly it....it helps alleviate some of the pressures that we receive
when it comes before Council, when we know there's been a good -neighbor meeting in
some way, shape, or form.
Mims/ But.....for every single.....building permit.... for single-family homes?
Botchway/ (both talking) ...something I thought about as well, because I was thinking about not
only the burden that it puts on staff but, you know, and even the memo. Staff mentioned
well over 100 single-family permits. So one of the things I did do is just, you know, did a
little research and Googled a couple of things and we .... we have a subscription service
right now. Could it be a possibility that as building permits are uploaded or put into our
system there could be a subscription service that then goes out to, not necessarily affected
communities, but people that subscribe to the service. I'm just throwing alternatives out
there just because from an information standpoint, and in that .... again, we talk about, you
know, even in my own job, talking about, you know, how do we engage with the
community, and you know, in this day and age you have to engage in every way, not just
one way, um, and so I ..... I worry about putting that out there into the ether, but I .... I do,
I'm.....I'm going back to Rockne's point, and this is why I even brought up the .... the
discussion around the process regarding the large entertainment venue. I feel like the
different.... the conversation we're going to have later on with, uh, overlays or other
things I think are really going to be a good fit, I worry about the interim.
frankly worried about the time in between we get that figured out that we're not going to
have any type of process in place, and this could be, I'm not saying it's a quick fix, but
something that we could do to ensure that if this is about being, um, notified, can we do
something along those lines from a .... a software standpoint, that could help folks
(mumbled)
Throgmorton/ Yeah so (both talking)
Mims/ Interesting idea!
Throgmorton/ So .... so let me pick up on that. I agree, I think if. ... if we could identify, uh, a
degree of scale difference between a proposed building and the existing neighborhood.
We could instruct staff to, uh, assess whether a building proposed for a residentially
zoned neighborhood is dramatically out of scale. In other words, passes that trip -wire or
whatever you want to call it, uh, exceeds that hurdle, and if it is, to notify neighbors that a
permit has been applied for, a building permit has been applied for. I ..... I think we could
do that, but I want to quote a....a sentence I guess out of the staffs memo, which is
directly relevant to this. Building permits are issued based strictly on compliance with a
set of code standards. Thus, any neighborhood input received would not play a role into
whether a building permit would be issued or not. So that's crucial, I mean we can alert
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people that some building's been proposed and it's applied for a building permit that's
out of scale with the neighborhood, but the staff has to review the permit application in
terms of the code as it's written. That's what they have to do. We cannot intervene in
that. So, I think it would be good to have a trip -wire threshold. That'd be a good
intermediary step. I don't know what that threshold would be, but I suspect staff could
identify such a thing. And then it .... could be used to alert people, so that we don't have a
problem with people feeling blindsided.
Mims/ The prob.... (both talking)
Throgmorton/ .....creating trauma like John referred to. Yeah.
Mims/ The ..... the issue that people still have to understand though is you just stated, Jim, is that
they may be alerted that that building permit has been applied for, but because those
permits are issued based on code and the regulations, they're not going to have any input
to whether that permit is issued or not.
Cole/ Sometimes neighborhoods .... neighbors modify their conduct even when they don't have
to, and I think that was what the hope with this whole process was is that residents and
neighbors were hoping that these particular landowners would respond and take into
consideration. Now these landowners chose not to do that. So even if we build that
conversation, there may be lack of a regulatory demand, but maybe we have a (mumbled)
have the whole neighborhood mad at me and it just begins a process so there could be
sort of the mutual decision making.
Thomas/ Yeah, I think extending the duration ... is .... is helpful.... in that sense.
Taylor/ (both talking) Oh, sorry (several talking)
Thomas/ ....duration of when the community or the neighborhood becomes aware something's
(both talking)
Throgmorton/ ...notify 'ern .... them more quickly.
Thomas/ Right.
Throgmorton/ Or .... or earlier.
Thomas/ Kind of the, some of the things we talked about with Rose Oaks, you know, just ... let
the information become known to those affected by whatever the action is going to be,
whether City Council can control the outcome or not. I think, has some benefit to it.
Throgmorton/ So .... so I think I hear pretty clear indication from the Council that we'd like to
have staff generate a specific proposal about.....some kind of size threshold that could be
used in a fashion that we've just been articulating.
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Botchway/ And I ... just so I'm clear, I was, um, I was on the City of Birmingham, Michigan
website. It was talking about subscriptions as far as updates to building permits, as kind
of a .... a process by which, you know, it may not necessarily .... cause my first thought
was a letter, um, because I see some of those, you know, sticks and the flags or whatever
that you can see that something is going to happen or a building permit's being issued,
but something that again, you subscribe to .... anybody can subscribe to and then you see
any type of building that's being, uh, somebody (mumbled) somebody gets issued a
building permit or wants to issue a building permit, that information would go directly to
you.
Mims/ Certainly if that could be done through a subscription process, that would be nice,
because it hopefully would be less time -intensive for staff.
Taylor/ We keep taking about, um, codes and regulations, those terms keep coming up and, uh,
when are we going to trigger people to know about these things going on, but that's what
(mumbled) here for is to .... to look at whether some of those codes and regulations need
to be more thoroughly looked at and be more (both talking)
Throgmorton/ Absolutely and I think we need to .... really talk about those right at the end of our
conversation here. Anything else on that particular claim? Let's turn to the fourth claim.
Members of quasi-judicial board ... no, did I write that sentence? Well anyhow I'll read it!
(laughter) Members of quasi-judicial board members (laughs) need to be trained better.
Some, if not all, members of the Board of Adjustment and Board of Appeals appeared not
to know what the rules are or how the process is supposed to work. So....
Mims/ Well I guess the only response I can give to this, I mean I have not sat in on any of these
board meetings, um.....and I think oftentimes we shouldn't be there as Council Members,
um.....so I guess, you know, my only response I guess can be from what staff had
indicated with.....you know, the complexity of some of the cases that these boards hear
and sometimes the infrequency with which they hear, and I think the .... the Appeals, um,
what, there were two in 2012, two in 2013, and two in 2016. So .... you know, how many
members of that board were the same in 2016 as in 12 and 13, I don't know for sure. I'd
have to go back and look. So it .... and the fact that I think the more, the more complex
and the more contentious the issue, I think... hopefully the more diligent the board
members are in wanting to make sure that they understand their role and are doing things
the right way, which thus generates hopefully more questions, um, you know, from those
board members during the process, and there are certain limitations about them talking to
anybody or asking any questions before the hearing. So I .... I think when you put all
those pieces together, um, it makes, to me, it made a lot of sense when I read the staff
memo. Okay, this .... this is why you get an awful lot of questions from the board
members and ..... and if you do that training, you know, even once a year or whatever. I
think when you get into the nitty gritty of something like that, you're probably still gonna
have an awful lot of questions based on .... the details and the nuances of that particular
case, and again, hopefully because people want to make sure they understand the process
and are doing the best job they can.
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Throgmorton/ Yeah. I have two specific suggestions, with regard to this claim. And.....Eleanor,
I.....I'd appreciate if you could listen carefully to this and see what I'm suggesting is, you
know, legal.... legally viable and all that. So one.... possible action is that .... in .... in some
fashion we could instruct the Board of Adjustment, the members of the Board of
Adjustment, that they can schedule a separate meeting to discuss procedure for
considering an appeal it knows is going to be very controversial. I know that ... that kind
of suggestion was in the staff memo. Seems to me like a.....a very helpful thing to do. It
would enable the Board of Adjustment members to really think through the process that
they're going .... they need to follow, the requirements they need to live up to, etc.
Dilkes/ Yeah, I think you .... as the memo said, I think you .... you can do that. I don't think you
can instru.... instruct the Board of Adjustment (laughs) to do that. I think that has to be
(both talking)
Throgmorton/ Advise them or whatever (both talking)
Dilkes/ Yeah, I mean staff can certainly, and I think that was mentioned in the memo, is that, um,
that's an opportunity available to the board chair to initiate, um, or any board member, to
initiate to have a separate meeting ahead of time. It would still be a public meeting. It
would still be.....it would have to be, um, kind of a generic understanding of process, not
the actual hearing on the particular case, but I think that's doable.
Throgmorton /Yeah, okay.
Dickens/ Another suggestion was having alternates, you know, if a certain board ..... I know we
have trouble filling boards the way it is, but some of these it takes a while to learn, if
somebody'd be interested in bein' an alternate and sitting in and .... sitting in on the
meetings and learning the process over a period of time. It's kind of like the next
generation, uh, lot of boards I'm on have a next generation, so they're learning by sitting
in on some of these and potentially have an alternate if some.... something came up that
you needed an alternate vote. (both talking)
Throgmorton/ Are there.... Eleanor, are there any legal constraints about having alternates for at
least this board?
Dilkes/ (both talking) Yeah, I'd have to .... the ..... the ...... the number of board members I think
is .... is (several talking) statutory but I .... but I could look at it and see if there was any
....if there was a possibility (both talking)
Throgmorton/ Given the situation that occurred, uh, I think that'd be helpful, if it is legal to do it.
Dilkes/ I'll look at it.
Throgmorton/ The other suggestion I was gonna make, I guess, cannot be a mandatory but....
when I read the transcript of the .... the various meetings the board of adjustment held and
looked at the, especially the one in which they voted, I think it'd be very helpful if the
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members could be informed, advised..... that they should listen to other board members
express their views before indicating how they were going to vote, and also to advise
them that the board has a right to move to defer or to defer the vote to the following
meeting. They don't have to vote on it, uh, on the very night that, you know, it seems
like they should but they're havin' a complicated discussion.
Dilkes/ I don't think that's an unusual happening with the Board .... with the Board of
Adjustment.
Throgmorton/ Yeah, I know, but it didn't happen, I think, uh, on the night that they voted, as best
I could read, uh, the material. Anyhow .... I.....I just firmly believe it's important to ..... to
kind of hear people talk and hear their views so you can be swayed one way or the other,
just by hearing the differing arguments and then .... you ]snow, if you're really anxious
and aren't ready to vote but you've heard all the stuff, you want a little time to process it,
say, `Hey, can we defer?' So....
Dilkes/ I think that's always an option available and staff can certainly emphasize that more. I
don't know how that's been emphasized in the past.
Botchway/ Yeah, I guess I'm interested in how (clears throat) ...... apologize ...... what that looks
like. Is it a letter from City Council or staff instruction to go back, I mean I'm in
agreement with the .... the separate session, um, in particular cause I think that's a good
way of deliberating. But.... regarding the .... the two other suggestions that you made,
Jim. I'm in favor of the vote defer. I think that's, you know, something we do so I don't
understand why that couldn't be something that the Board of Adjustment does as well,
but you know asking them to deliberate before they vote, I mean, I feel like
that's.... technically what they should be doing.
Throgmorton/ But before they indicate how they're going to vote (both talking)
Botchway/ Right, sorry, before they indicate how they ... how they're going to vote I .... I don't
know how we would ..... I'm thinking about how we would state that (both talking)
Dilkes/ I don't have the transcript in front of me that you're talking about specifically, Mayor,
but .... but certainly part of being an....an impartial and fair decision maker is to listen to
the evidence and, um, I don't know that it necessarily requires like it does for you when
you have a public hear .... you know, I don't know that it requires that they listen to each
other necessarily (laughs) I don't .... that may not necessarily be a bad thing, but um.....
but I think the emphasis is on making sure that they listen to all the evidence carefully, as
a judge does, I mean that's what a quasi-judicial board is is that they're acting like a
judge does. Um, but I ... I don't .... I don't see any harm in reminding the board that they,
you know, they can listen to each other's views before they vote or that they can defer,
um, if they're not ready to vote. And I ..... I, you could ask Sarah Walz about that. My
guess is that there's some of that already done, cause I know they do defer on occasion.
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Botchway/ And maybe that could be a part of a statement, you know, they had a statement in
here that they changed in regards to the opening remarks to provide a little more
education to the community about how they deliberate. Maybe that could be an
additional thing stated within that opening statement, to make it clear that we will
consider, you know, all of the evidence beforehand, before we indicate what we're going
to vote, I mean I .... I'm just trying to think of the vehicle with which we're going to make
that happen in any type of way, shape, or form.
Taylor/ Well I think the word `advise' has come up several times and I think just advising them
as we get new members on the board or even, uh, annually, each board, reminding them
of these things, uh, would be helpful.
Throgmorton/ So, uh, Eleanor, maybe you could talk with Sarah and....
Dilkes/ Yeah!
Throgmorton/ ....come back with us in terms of some language or action that we could.... follow
through on? Okay. Anybody else want to say anything on that claim? All right, let's go
to the fifth claim. Uh, there needs to be greater separation between the City Attorney's
office and the Board's legal counsel, the Board of Adjustments I guess, legal counsel. At
a minimum to avoid the perception of a conflict of interest. This could be accomplished
by issuing a competitive request for proposals for on-call assistance to quasi judici...
judicial bodies. Well I observe that the staff s memo indicates that Eleanor, our City
Attorney, has contacted the County Attorney, and the County Attorney is willing to have
her office provide re .... a reciprocal, what's the term, representation?
Dilkes/ We would do it for each other. (both talking) They had an issue, then I would .... my
office would represent.
Throgmorton/ And .... and possibly with someone whose, what's the right term? Uh.....
Dilkes/ In-house counsel.
Throgmorton/ In-house counsel, with one of our neighboring cities. Yeah, uh, so I don't know,
what'd y'all think?
Thomas/ One thought I had was, um, of the .... when I was working for the City of San Francisco
and our labor union was involved in contract negotiation with the city, uh, the, urn .... the
mediators were agreed upon by both parties, moving into the negotiation. So one .... my
thought was in a case like this, could it be something where both parties would agree to
who would be representing the, urn .... you know, parties involved, or, you know, be.....be
the legal counsel on this particular issue.
Dilkes/ Well that's different because the mediator is like the board, not a legal counsel for the
board. Um.....I mean I'd have to .... I'd have to give that some thought. I think....
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Throgmorton/ It's a little bit different.
Dilkes/ I think that could be problematic. I think one of the things you have to remember is it's
not always easy to find an attorney, um, in this instance I contacted three local attorneys,
all of which had conflicts or scheduling issues. I talked to Andy Chappell who has been
the civil attorney at the, um, Johnson County Attorney's Office, who I work with quite a
bit, and talked to him about whether he had any ideas about who this might be. He
recommended the Lederer firm, A and I contacted the Lederer firm and found someone
who had the .... had a schedule that would permit it, etc. So.....you know, it's .... and
that's why I have concerns about the RFP process, because I don't, um, I .... I ..... it's .... it
doesn't happen very often. So for someone to put the effort in to respond to an RFP
when they might be called upon once every couple of years, I think that's a lot to ask,
but .... so having someone, another governmental entity that has, that you know has the
experience to .... to handle these kinds of cases, um, I .... I think is the best option.
Taylor/ I think Eleanor's idea of the reciprocal representation, it is really a good idea. It goes
right along I think with our strategic plan goal of, uh, improving inter -governmental
relations, so working with the other communities, be it Coralville or North Liberty, I
think that's an excellent idea cause I think, uh, you still might run into problems with, uh,
people that are related or know each other, and I think in that instance I think, uh,
someone needs to be professional enough to recuse themselves if there's, uh, if they're
related in any way to the other party or feel that there would be some sort of conflict of
interest.
Cole/ Just to clarify, this would be for purposes of representing the Board of Adjustment during
the deliberative process and then if that decision is a ... affirmed in District Court, the City
Attorney's Office would still be representing the City or would this firm still be then
representing the City for purposes of defending the outcome for the Board of Adjustment.
How .... how would that work?
Dilkes/ It ... it really, I think it depends on the circumstances and how far the conflict allegations,
you know, that are being made, etc. So, um.....I mean in this case as you know,
urn .... uh, the decision of the building official was not reversed. Um, and I had hoped
that ... that we could represent Board of Adjustment in that case, given that at that point the
interests of the City and the Board of Adjustment were aligned. Um, but given the, um,
kind of allegations that had been made, um, and continue to be made, I thought it would
be better to have outside counsel represent them.
Throgmorton/ Well, I think there's.....there is merit in considering the reciprocal representation
idea. I believe I'm hearing that from others. (several responding) Can we turn to the
sixth claim? All right, so .... so this one is, as I stated anyhow, neighbors also expressed
concerns about the actions of specific City personnel. Some of the pers.... and then....
some of the personnel related concerns are expressed in the email that Karen Southard
sent to each of us on September the 19`h, and I referred to that right at the outset of this
meeting. Her email summarizes four provisions of the City code, which in her judgment
and that of other neighbors, "Have either chronically misinterpreted or chronically
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bypassed in cases of in -fill construction." Uh, or have been either chronically
misinterpreted or chronically bypassed in cases of in -fill construction. Karen Southard
also states, "We neighbors feel strongly that City staff must follow City code as intended
and adopted by the Council." So, I .... I also requested staff to provide information
pertaining to each of Karen's four claims, which the staff did, and .... so we have an
opportunity to discuss that now, the .... the four claims that Karen made and then staff s
response to that.
Thomas/ You're referring to these claims one through four, is that.....
Throgmorton/ Yeah. Yeah.
Thomas/ Yeah.
Throgmorton/ I .... I'll tell you real quickly what I see in the .... the staff s response is that
basically the court's findings were contrary to the claims made in Karen's email. The
court did not uphold the positions that the neighbors took. So.....I think that's just a fact.
Cole/ Doesn't he have to defer to the factual findings of the board though, so had the opposite
result occurred would he have been given deference to the (both talking)
Throgmorton/ I think that's the way it typically happens. The court defers to the technical
judgment, or not technical but the judgment of the Board of Adjustment. But it was a 2-2
vote.
Cole/ Yeah.
Throgmorton/ So it deferred to the 2-2 vote.
Cole/ Yes.
Throgmorton/ I think it's right.
Dilkes/ I would say it a little differently. It's a substantial evidence standard. Um, and when it
comes to statutory construction, that's a little different when you're talking about how a
statute is constructed, and you'll see here the court went through the analysis of how....
how it thought the .... the statute should be interpreted, as .... as well. Um, I think even
if..if a court finds that there's substantial evidence, but there was error in the construction
of the statute, that those are kind of two different things.
Cole/ I guess along those lines then, if it had been 3-2 the other way do we think it would have
been reversed? Or.....is that (mumbled) with that or.....
Dilkes/ If you want my opinion, I think it would have been, yes.
Throgmorton/ But we don't know.
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Dilkes/ But we don't know! No.
Taylor/ That goes back to I think education of the .... the board members, knowing that, uh, when
and where they can, um, appropriately discuss these things or, uh, express their opinion
on something before it's actually voted on, because then it would have been different as
far as the number of eligible voters.
Mims/ But in ... in deference to that board member, if my recollection is correct, it wasn't even in
front of the board when that individual expressed their opinion.
Dilkes/ It wasn't. It was an email prior to the appeal.
Throgmorton/ Yeah.
Taylor/ I .... I just see a lot more to this sensitive lands issue too because, uh, there's language
and .... and, uh, neighbors had talked about the sloping of the property, uh, and I have
some concerns about that because as .... as it was being constructed, I noticed a lot of trees
being removed and, uh, maybe John can, uh, describe this a little better as far as ... to me
the trees kind of, would be holding that slope up and if you're moving those trees, won't
that perhaps over time tend to erode that slope, and not give enough, uh, support for a
large building, or building of that size?
Thomas/ I think that's .... you have to evaluate that on a case-by-case basis, but yeah, it could. It
certainly could destabilize the slope.
Mims/ I mean to me the question is did they follow the sensitive areas ordinance and, you know,
any limitations on tree removal, I mean, we've had cases in the city where I've seen
things that I certainly would have preferred (laughs) not to have happened, but if they fall
within, uh, within our ordinances, uh, for sensitive slopes or woodland removal, etc., then
there's not a whole lot I can do as an individual or as a Council Member, um, other than
come back and talk to Council and say, `I think we need to change ordinances!' So,
assuming that .... the developer, builder did that work within the guidelines of those
ordinances, um, there's nothing, you know, that we can do in regard to that. I think, uh,
whether we as individuals, you know, agree, and I think it's pretty clear if any of us had
had the power we would of .... maybe not wanted to allow this building to go forward, um,
I think the court ruling is, whether you're, you know, as you read through it, whether you
agree or disagree, um, the court has ruled. There's not a whole lot that we can do with
that, um, in terms of moving forward.
Throgmorton/ That's the way it seems to me. Okay! So, I now wanna mention what ... or draw
our attention to the (noises on mic, unable to hear speaker) (laughter) possible courses of
action that Geoff and Eleanor have, uh.... uh, directed our attention to. So, basically, uh,
they suggest that we focus our attention on the zoning code, and then identify spore... four
specific courses of action we could take. I'm gonna mention each of them quickly and
then we can probe them. The first is to, um, start the process of. ... if neighbors want, of
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creating an historic preservation overlay zone for the neighborhood, or part of it. The
second is to .... recognize that we are currently in the process of developing a form based
code for the Northside neighborhood, which if we adopt it, could be translated ...... to, into
the conditions of the Manville Heights neighborhood. The third is that we could adopt
the zoning code....no, that we are in the process tonight of adopting zoning code
amendments that are included in the neighborhood stabilization initiative. That's, I don't
know, Item 8? Is ... is that included (both talking)
Fruin/ It's not in tonight's. It's the second phase of the (both talking)
Throgmorton/ Sony, second phase, but it's in the works. Yeah. And the last is to create a design
overlay district for the Manville Heights neighborhood. So we've already touched on
these a little bit, I mean in terms of timing. Rockne, you .... you were rightly identifying
the fact that some of these are gonna take time to do, like the form based co .... code thing.
I think that would take at least two year. At least two.
Cole/ Yeah.
Throgmorton/ Get into play if. ... if in fact that's the direction we wanted to go. And.... historic
preservation, creating that kind of district for part of. ... all or part of Manville Heights
would.... probably proceed more quickly, but there are procedural hurdles that would
have to be brought, you know, that we'd .... that would have to be encountered. So (both
talking)
Cole/ I guess sort of to jump off the conversation, I guess I would like to punt on this question
for this evening. We could perhaps indicate some of our preferences, but to me I think
this is something that we have to work closely with the neighborhood in terms of
identifying what seems to me to be the lightest regulatory footprint, consistent with
preventing something like this from happening again. That seems to be the gist of it. I
know there were efforts in the past, uh, to do a historic preservation overlay in this
neighborhood and there didn't seem to be .... there was some interest, not unanimous.
Um, so I certainly don't want a situation where the cure here causes its own set of angst
for the community. So I'm hoping that, uh, we can identify what our preferences are, and
I know that that's probably what we're going to do anyway, Jim, but um.....I in particular
am a big fan of form based code, and I encourage the neighborhood to look very closely
with this, um, but this is something especially given .... this is a very unique neighborhood
in terms of the .... the residential neighborhood, next to some incredibly intense
development with the University of Iowa, I think with its own unique characteristics, and
so I think that the neighborhood would really be best situated to work constructively with
our staff to come back with a recommendation.
Botchway/ I would agree. I think that, you know, for me I wouldn't necessarily say we're
punting on the issue. We're just simply stating that, you know, there's options here and
I'd rather hear from the community, especially since many of them are here tonight as far
as what option works best. Um, you know I can .... I don't know if we're going to go
through some of the options we are .... looking at or supportive of right now or....
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Throgmorton/ I think we should probe them a little bit more, yeah.
Botchway/ So, again, going back to what I brought up before, as far as timeline being an issue
and I appreciate staff kind of outlaying some of the, um, concerns with each one, or at
least some of the issues with each one. The form based code obviously, I mean I'd be
supportive of, but you just mentioned that it'd be two years. So....
Throgmorton/ And we haven't even adopted it yet.
Botchway/ Right. So (both talking) that was problematic for me. The historic district, I think,
Rockne, you already kind of mentioned as far as, you know, what procedural issues come
with that and, again, I don't live in the neighborhood, but those would .... I was also just
thinking about what would I want to see in my neighborhood, basically, as I was
deliberating, talking with folks. The two biggest ones for me are the pending zoning
code changes and the design overlay district. I feel like I'm most supportive of the
design overlay district. My question about timeline is still.... prevalent as far as what that
looks like, how quickly can that get done. Um, I know we're talking specifically about,
um, Manville Heights neighborhood, but how does this get articulated across the city? Is
this something that we're looking at across the city? I mean I would think so.
Um.....I'm trying to make sure I mention everything that I wa.... those are, so I think that
for one and two for me would be design overlay district and the pending zoning code
changes; however, I do want to (mumbled) alternative out there, um, that I was
discussing previously, um, around that.....around that review process, and I'm .... I'm
really, you know, this is.....this is not my expertise, so literally as I'm looking through
this and thinking about how I would want to see something, um, regulated, I'm also
looking at it from the lens of how quickly this could potentially get done. Um, again,
because there's no .... there's nothing right now that says that a building couldn't be built
tomorrow, or .... obviously there's a building permit process and everything else, but my
point is is that we could run into a situation throughout the city, and so wanted to make
sure that we have something (coughing, unable to hear speaker) quickly but done well, I
think, would be a great way of looking at it as well.
Thomas/ I'm inclined to ... to, you know, there's sort of a short and a long-term answer I think
or .... framework to think about this, and in terms of the long-term I think that it is
something that, you know, the neighborhood is best.....it's best for the neighborhood to
try to identify what seems to be the direction to go. But personally I'm concerned about
the short-term, and it's ..... it relates to, um, you know, one of the items we'll be
discussing tonight on the student rental caps. Manville Heights falls in the University
impact zone. Entirely! That .... that poses a threat in my .... in my mind to potential.... um,
outcomes that none of us want to see .... in terms of what could possibly happen.
So .... you know, the pending zoning changes I think address some of those issues. It, you
know, what's identified here, um, in the memo speaks to .... the staff memo, speaks to
the .... the depth aspects. Uh, I'm not reading anything that responds to the, if you have a
wider lot, if there are any controls, uh, on the width of the building. So .... so there, I .... I
would want to ask Council to .... consider asking staff (laughs) to look at, um, this
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question of interim zoning code changes that may ... may need to be necessary in order to
prevent, um, maybe not a .... a Kinnick house but .... but something large that, um, you
know, with, again, we're faced with a situation where the .... the student occu.... you know
the occupancy cap is being lifted, of unrelateds. There (mumbled) won't apply January
151. That .... that could trigger, uh, the, you know, permits for very large homes, for large
occupancies, particularly on large lots. So, that .... that's what worries me right now,
and .... and that we need to address that.
Mims/ What .... the way I guess I would look at this is, I think our .... I think our short-term,
and .... and you kind of called it maybe interim, John, I think is our pending zoning code
changes. I want .... I want to look again at what .... what we're looking at that's not going
to be on tonight but the longer term ones that are gonna come back, kind of in the second
phase. Um....
Dilkes/ They're not zoning code changes tonight. They're housing code changes (both talking)
Mims/ ....I'm sorry, the housing code changes! Um, but looking at those again because .... it,
again this is an issue that we've talked about, you know, for at least four, five, six years,
specifically with the Northside at that point in time .... of, because that's where the
demand has been the greatest in terms of the rental permits, of people, you know,
especially buying up say a couple of adjacent lots and then putting up very large
structures, um, you know, that do not meet the character and .... and good in -fill
development. So I think trying to look .... and I think that would also help then, you
know, in these sorts of cases, any other in -fill kind of cases within the community. So I'd
like to make sure that we're looking at that in those things that are coming forward as
well. Um, in regard to the other three, uh, options on here, the, you know, the design
overlay district, uh, as we've mentioned the form based code is at least a couple of years
out and ..... the historic district has not been.... high.... has not necessarily I guess I would
say maybe well received or at least .... not by a large enough percentage of the people in
the area. I would like to see the people in Manville Heights come back and tell us,
besides these potential zoning changes that we might do, what else do they think they
would like to see for their neighborhood, to provide, um, maybe either more or long-term,
uh, protection, and once we have those zoning code changes figured out, they may or
may not decide they want anything more. Um, but I do not want to sit here as a Council
Member and try to, um, impose things upon that neighborhood that they don't want.
Taylor/ Well I think, um, Susan, I think the neighbors have expressed a lot of their concerns. It's
a lot of health and safety kinds of issues regarding not just zoning codes but a lot of the
codes as I'd mentioned earlier the .... the, uh, sewer codes and the fire codes, those kinds
of things they have concerns about and they have expressed those to us, and I think those
are things that shouldn't be glossed over, and also need to be looked at and studied
thoroughly and ..... (both talking)
Mims/ (both talking) .... oh yeah, I'm not dismissing those. (both talking) I'm just saying with
the four we're looking at here (both talking)
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Taylor/ Right!
Mims/ You know, with the historic, the form based, and the design, I don't want to, uh, try to
impose those on those .... any.....any other regulations that we have in place as a city I am
absolutely and totally supportive that they are, that we are following those regulations.
Taylor/ And we need to be. I think we all.... staff and us, uh, and .... and the boards and
commissions need to learn from this situation and .... and avoid any kind of that, not
minimize but avoid any, uh, similar situations in the future.
Dilkes/ Staff.. staff believes it interpreted the codes correctly. The District Court affirmed that
we interpreted the codes correctly. So, if you want to have more discussion about that we
should, but .... that, the premise I can't.... accept.
Taylor/ I believe we should. There were several, from a healthcare perspective, being a
healthcare provider for many years, there were a lot of issues that were brought up
that .... that I find very concerning.
Throgmorton/ All right. Instructions to the staff, beyond what we've already identified in, uh,
with regard to the earlier claims. I .... I think one thing we're hearing pretty loudly is that
we do not want to impose any one of these particular code revision alternatives on the
people in Manville Heights. So, we need some kind of process by which..... they can be
involved in discussions .... with us or with staff, so that we can get some sense of which of
them.....so that we know everybody understands what's involved in those, at least three
major code alternatives, and then give us some sense of whether the .... the neighborhood
wants us to act with regard to any one of them, like if. ... if the neighborhood said to us we
want to pursue the historic preservation overlay alternative, we could get that process
underway pretty quickly. But we don't want to say `That's what we're gonna do!' We
need feedback and interaction. But with .... with, there is that fourth alternative, uh, that
has to do with, uh.... the, uh, residential occupants..... I'm tryin' to find my own notes
here. The, uh, zoning code amendments included in the neighborhood stabilization
initiative, those are underway and they will have an effect in Manville Heights,
immediately after they're adopted. So .... they include provisions that would limit how
deep a house may extend into a lot, and establish a minimum rear yard, open space
requirement. Uh, it's not perfect but it....it help ... it would help and then beyond that....
Thomas/ Well that's what I'm .... (both talking) suggest is the, kind of the Opticos analysis,
where you look at, you know, we make the revisions and then we look at scenarios of
what could be generated by those new changes with ... or you know with the revisions, and
see if that seems acceptable or not. Without getting into the .... you know, there's a much
higher level of detail involved in .... both in the outcome and in the process with the other
three, but in the short-term, um .... you know, I think this .... this volumetric component is
....is the st... you know, a key starting point, you know (several talking)
Throgmorton/ ....what do you mean volumetric (several talking)
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Thomas/ The square footage of a building, uh, its mass and bulk, uh, size and bulk.
Throgmorton/ So this gets back to the point we ..... the topic we discussed earlier about a trip-
wire with regard to, uh, the size of a building relative to the existing size and scale of the
other buildings......
Thomas/ Right.
Throgmorton/ ....immediately nearby. So, if we had that kind of trip -wire provision, as well as
initiating these, uh, neighborhood stabilization components about depth of the yard and
so on, those would help.
Mims/ But I would say, Jim, it's not .... to me it's not just having a trip -wire provision in terms of
notification. It's actual zoning changes, because (both talking) I know! Because if..if
we don't have zoning changes it doesn't matter if you've got the trip -wire. If they want
to build it, they can build it. But I realize it takes time. I get that. I .... the other thing I
would just like to emphasize is.....we have had this discussion here tonight, um, because
of what has happened in Manville Heights. But this could happen, and this is something
that the members of that neighborhood have brought up, this could happen anywhere, um,
in any of our neighborhoods that happen to have either an empty lot or somebody went in
and bought a building and .... and took out a demolition permit and ended up with an
empty lot. So as we sit here and talk about these four staff recommendations, and most
of our comments have been focused upon what the Manville Heights neighborhood
association can do. I would like to make it very clear to anybody and everybody in this
audience or anybody listening to this discussion that this is important for every
neighborhood in the city. Now obviously every neighborhood is not gonna qualify for
historic district overlay, all right. Um, but certainly these others may be of interest to
them, and I think people across the city need to be aware of what has happened, aware of
the changes that we are trying to work our way through to make sure that this doesn't
happen, that there's no perfect solution, and.... hopefully it won't happen again, but if
people want to make sure it doesn't happen in their neighborhood they need to get
involved, they need to start talking with each other, start talking with us, you know, what
would they want in their neighborhood, or what would they want to see as zoning
changes that might be citywide as well. So .... this isn't.... relevant just to the Manville
neighborhood area. So I just want to emphasize that.
Throgmorton/ Right.
Thomas/ Yeah I agree, it's .... it is, uh, particularly a concern in my mind in the University impact
zone, but it could expand beyond the impact zone.
Throgmorton/ Okay. Any further discussion? All right I .... I think we're gonna stop there. I .... I
know you understood the rules are that we have the discussion, but I also want you to
know that ..... if you want to speak about our discussion, etc., during the public comment
period of our formal meeting that starts at 7:00, you certainly are free to do that. If you
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want to write us and complain to us about, you know, all sorts of things we're doin'
wrong or doing right, you absolutely have the right to do that, uh, and.....
Mims/ And certainly feel free to contact us or staff as we've talked about these potential four
paths of going forward, um, as to what you either have questions about or might see
working for your neighborhood. Please feel free to reach out to us.
Throgmorton/ Okay with that L....I think we're going to move to our next agenda item. Thank
you all for coming. We can maybe wait a minute or two here.
Clarification of Agenda Items:
Throgmorton/ Okay, the next topic is clarification of agenda items.
Item 4d(4) Iowa City Downtown District Budget. Motion to accept the proposed
FY19 budget for the Iowa City Downtown District, as approved by the Iowa City
Downtown District Advisory Board.
Botchway/ I have 4d(4), the Iowa City Downtown District budget.
Throgmorton/ Yep!
Botchway/ Um ..... Geoff, help me out here. I thought and maybe I'm just remembering different
budgets and I didn't look back. I thought that there was a City contribution. Maybe that
was before, for a particular project or something, but I didn't see that articulated in the
budget this time around.
Fruin/ This is really just showing how they plan to use the SSMID property tax dollars.
Botchway/ Okay.
Fruin/ Uh, the ... the SSMID levy itself. We do, uh, not make a direct contribution to the Iowa
City Downtown District, uh, but we have partnered on a couple of different initiatives,
uh, that could be special events and festivals or things such as power washing the alleys,
uh, we .... we partner on. Uh, we've partnered on lighting projects and a whole number of
things, but those are typically done through a separate memorandum of understanding,
um, what you're seein' tonight on 4d(4) is simply how they plan to allocate the property
tax dollars from the SSMID levy.
Botchway/ I don't have any issue. I was just asking cause I feel like I remembered seeing
something where it was designated that we had given some amount of money, and I think
they're doing a wonderful job, so I'm not .... not saying anything about that. I will say
though, um, and I don't necessarily know what .... maybe I'll bring this up later, but I
would be interested in having a conversation about the organizations we give money to
and the public benefit they are providing. Uh, specifically from a diverse perspective,
ensuring they're incorporating inclusivity and diverse, uh, clientele or programming, um,
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with what they're doing. I'm not saying this about the Downtown District. It just
reminded me that I had wanted to bring this up, um, just in general about organizations
that we give money to. I'm not sure the appropriate time to talk about it or (both talking)
Throgmorton/ Could be a work session topic (several talking)
Botchway/ Okay!
Throgmorton/ Is there support for that idea? (several responding) Yeah, I'm seeing nodding
heads.
Fruin/ We'll put it on the pending list.
Dickens/ Eleanor, do I need to recuse, uh, the proposed budget? The Downtown District or....
Botchway/ We give Terry money? (laughter)
Dickens/ I, I mean, we don't .... we just pay rent. We're not, you know (both talking)
Dilkes/ ....think so, because the.—the levy is already there. Um, so....
Dickens/ I just wanted to make sure there wasn't any conflicts.
Dilkes/ You didn't vote on the actual, whether to create the SSMID because (both talking)
Dickens/ Right, I (both talking) I removed myself for that.
Dilkes/ I don't see that as (both talking)
Dickens/ Okay, just wanted to check. I don't want to get in trouble with just three meetings left!
(laughter)
Throgmorton/ That's right, throw him out! (laughter)
Dilkes/ Are you on the, I mean (both talking)
Dickens/ ...on the board or .... (both talking) No!
Item 9. Rental Permit Requirements - Ordinance amending Title 17, entitled "Building
And Housing," Chapter 5, entitled "Housing Code," to establish a rental permit cap
and to strengthen the minimum requirements for rental housing. (First
Consideration)
Thomas/ I have a request and I don't know if we have time to, um, respond to my request, but on
the map associated with the rental cap, I was interested in seeing if we could insert on
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that the, um, the University impact zone, that one -mile radius that defines the impact
zone?
Throgmorton/ Thought it was already on there. There's a boundary on it already, isn't there?
Thomas/ Well there's a boundary on the rental.... urn....
Throgmorton/ On the rental map. (both talking)
Thomas/ It's not circled.
Botchway/ (both talking) ....take two separate maps (both talking)
Throgmorton/ Well the University impact area's not a circle. (several talking)
Howard/ Um, the University impact area map was specifically created at the time we were doing
the stabilization effort for the multi -family, so it is slightly different than what we're now
considering, I think we need to consider for the (mumbled) issues that we're dealing with
now. So while it was the, some of those, um, those Comp Plan, um, efforts that we made
to the Central District, related to our .... our boundaries of the University impact area, um,
and helped us draw that map. It was, you know, we were doing that for a specific, uh, for
specific reasons at that time, and maybe, you know, while some of it's similar, um, I
think there are some differences and I could go into that more in the presentation later,
um, or I can talk about it now.....if you want me too.
Thomas/ Well my concern was that, you know, I was looking at all the ... when Jim asked for, you
know, where .... where is this development occurring with housing that tends to be, we
suspect, student -oriented. You know I put on that University impact zone 1 -mile radius
and pretty much everything fell within that radius.
Howard/ Yes, that is true!
Thomas/ So my feeling is is that the threats with respect to neighborhoods that, or districts as
we're defining them, that fall below whatever we set the cap threshold at, are gonna be
the most threatened (both talking)
Howard/ Right, and I think this along the edges there, there might be some differences because at
the time we were looking at multi -family zones, um, so I think there's some edges along
there that we may want to expand the boundaries of this particular, uh, area to respond
more to the Central District sub -area boundary, which is slightly different than the impact
area boundary, but....because we were talking about multi -family at the time, um, so we
may want to conclude a little, uh, little more adjustment to those east side boundaries.
The west side boundaries are pretty similar to what we were talking about.
Thomas/ Well we can talk about it on Item 9, but it .... just seemed to me there was a correlation
between that ... that radius and, uh, where I see.....
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Howard/ (both talking) Yeah, I think that's definitely true and it was one of the factors that we
considered when we created those boundaries.....was that influence (mumbled) similar to
what we're doing (both talking)
Thomas/ Okay. Thanks!
Throgmorton/ Thanks, Karen. Any.....any other agenda items?
Item 4f(7) James McCoy: Iowa City Municipal Carbon Fee and Dividend Resolution
Cole/ 4f(7), James McCoy, Iowa Municipal Carbon Fee and Dividend Resolution. Is that ... now a
time to bring that up?
Throgmorton/ Uh, sure, and I understand Jamie's talked to all of you?
Cole/ Yep! (several responding) Lot of great conversations, uh, very interesting concept, uh, the
only thing I wondered was whether this was something that would be in the form of a
resolution or a proclamation or what the Council thinks of that. Um, certainly to the
extent that we have any authority, I think it looks like something that I think they're
trying to get a lot of the municipalities in support of this, to get legislation done at the
federal level. Um, so I'm supportive of it, consistent with whatever authority we would
have in terms of resolution and proclamation.
Throgmorton/ So, Eleanor, we could do it either way, right? I think we should do the resolution,
and I say that because it gives each of us an opportunity to vote aye or nay. You know,
whereas with the proclamation really you're just kind of spouting off into the ether.
Dilkes/ The diff .... a proclamation is not an act of the Council. Resolution is.
Taylor/ And I agree with that, and um, in conversations with him, I expressed concerns that, uh,
did it deter from our climate action steering committee and our consultant and .... and he
assured me that, no, this is a complement on the federal level. So I would be very much
in favor of it.
Throgmorton/ Yeah, I think it'd be very complementary.
Cole/ Great conversations by the way too.
Throgmorton/ Yeah, he's worked really hard to ... you know, advance the carbon fee and dividend
idea. Okay, so I think, uh, we would like to have a resolution. If we could have it on our
next agenda, that would be great! Any other agenda items?
Item 12. Council Appointments
Taylor/ Item 12, the appointments and vacancies.
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Throgmorton/ Yeah, we're gonna skip that tonight. (both talking) ...defer action on that tonight.
Taylor/ ....number of applicants!
Throgmorton I know, 41 or whatever applicants for one or whatever applicants for one (laughter)
Botchway/ Do we notify them that we're postponing? Okay.
Information Packet Discussion (November 9, November 161:
Throgmorton /We haven't, uh, so it won't .... it won't affect when they start. Okay, uh.... I don't
know, we're pretty much out of time. We could at least get one packet, Info Packet
discussion, November 9"i.
Taylor/ In, uh, the November 9`h one, IP3 with the invitation from the League of Cities
Municipal Leadership Academy.
Throgmorton/ Yeah!
Taylor/ Even though I'm like two -years into my term....
Throgmorton/ Yeah.
Taylor/ I'd .... I would be interested in attending that.
Throgmorton/ (mumbled)
Taylor/ ....if people thought it'd be helpful.
Throgmorton/ I think you should.... should. Sign up! (laughs)
Taylor/ Thank you. If there's nothing else on November 9`h, I have, uh (both talking)
Throgmorton/ Okay, well let's see what .... what we can do in two minutes.
Taylor/ Okay.
Throgmorton/ So November 16.
Taylor/ November 16, IP7, the memo from Animal Services Supervisor Liz Ford, uh, about
urban wildlife and deer, and I just found that interesting and timely cause I was, uh,
riding with my 10 -year-old grandson in the car and I talked about the deer situation and
he says, `Well, Grandma,' he says, `What do you expect when you're taking their habitat
away,' and it really gave me food for thought and I would be, uh, I would definitely not
be in support of any sort of hired killer, uh, to decrease the, uh, population of them. So I
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think there're other critters, squirrels and, uh, woodpeckers, etc., that are also very
damaging. I have personal stories about that, but .... so I would not be in favor of
anything like that.
Tlurogmorton/ Interesting seeing the data given the .... the communications we've gotten over the
last several months. Yeah.
Mims/ Yeah, I'm glad we're gonna try and do the survey, cause I've had lots of people talking to
me about it, and urn .... if the survey data indicates it, I would ... I would support a hunt of
some sort like we've done before. I think they get sick, they starve to death, uh, when
you get too big a herd and so it's .... it actually is a much more humane way of dealing
with an overpopulation than doing nothing and letting them die of diseases or starvation.
So .... we'll see what the data says.
Thomas/ Yeah, I've heard many comments from neighbors about what seems to be an increase in
the, uh, presence of the deer and, uh, we saw a buck in our backyard not too long ago
(laughs) uh, you know, I mean .... just one, just one that particular time and, you know,
we are trying to promote, uh, some of us anyway, you know, local foods, gardening
(laughter and several talking) little difficult ( laughter and several talking) making
headway on that if you have deer roaming through your backyard!
Dickens/ Put more hostas up (laughter)
Throgmorton/ I'd like to mention IP 46, which is the City Manager's November 14`h memo
about student -oriented housing, or at least what appears to be predom.... predominantly
student -oriented. So if I counted correctly, it reveals a net increase of 4,021 bedrooms,
primarily serving the student market, since 2015 or .... under construction and would be
completed by some time in 2019 at the latest. Most of them have been privately
developed and about 1,200 are in new dorms at the University, and I'm talkin' net here,
again. So ... and that's in Iowa City alone. It excludes similar housing in Coralville.
That's a huge increase. So, I .... I think it's really helpful to see that data and have it in
mind when we talk about related issues.
Mims/ Yeah, thanks for requesting it. It's a good piece (both talking)
Throgmorton /Okay, I think we should stop there. Does... well, does anybody have any other
questions about that information packet?
Botchway/ Just a congrats to, um, hou.... the Housing Authority. (several talking)
Throgmorton/ Okay, why don't we .... we'll have to reconvene right at the end, uh, after our
formal meeting to talk about.... updates on boards and commissions.
Mims/ Yes! Cause I need to, definitely.
Throgmorton/ Okay. All right, so we're done with our work session for now.
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