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Council Present: Botchway, Cole, Mims, Salih, Taylor, Thomas, Throgmorton
Staff Present: Fruin, Monroe, Andrew, Dulek, Fruehling, Havel, Sovers, Hightshoe,
Miklo, Bockenstedt
Discuss Sanxay-Gilmore House (109 Market Street):
Throgmorton/ Okay, well let's begin the Iowa City City Council work session for January the
2 a 2018. The first topic is the Sanxay-Gilmore House. Before we start though, I
certainly want to welcome Mazahir Salih to our City Council. It's great to have you on
board. I want to congratulate Terry, uh, Terry! Tracy Hightshoe out there.
Congratulations to you, Tracy. Well earned! And I want to congratulate our new Mayor
Pro Tem, Pauline Taylor. Nice to have you over here. Keepin' me on time and things
like that. That'd be good! Okay, Geoff, you're gonna start, right?
Fruin/ Yeah, I'll go ahead and start. Um.....the Council picked a tough issue for their first issue
in 2018 (laughter) Um, this'll be one of the more difficult, uh, topics that, um, the
Council's had to deal with in some time, and I plan to just walk you through that tonight.
Uh, you've received a lot of correspondence, uh, on this particular topic. I shouldn't say
a lot, but there's, um, some .... uh, important background that's been shared with ya, both
from staff and from, uh, the chair of the, uh, Historic Preservation Commission. So I
hope you've had a chance to read that. That was in your December 14t1 packet. Uh, we
also provided a hard, uh, copy at your desk, uh, tonight if you need to refer back to that
and you don't have the electronic version still. Um, in September, the University of Iowa
and Gloria Dei, uh, entered into a purchase agreement for property that includes 109
Market Street, um, which is referred to as the Sanxay-Gilmore House in the
correspondence you've received. Uh, when, uh, this was, uh, announced, the church also
indicated that they had a proposed location to move the site, uh, which is on the same
block on Jefferson Street and the courtyard that you're now familiar with. And since that
time, you've received, um, correspondence from, uh, the, again, the chair of the Historic
Preservation Commission and executive director of the Friends of Historic Preservation,
with, uh, concerns on that, uh, noted location and some other thoughts on steps that could
be taken, uh, to more appropriately preserve, uh, the Sanxay-Gilmore House. In the staff
memo, uh, that was provided to you on December le, there's a little bit of background
on the historic significance of 109 Market Street. Um, it is clear, I don't think there's any
debate, that this is a .... a property, uh, worthy of preservation. It's been, uh, targeted for
preservation by the Historic Preservation Commission, uh, for many years and recently,
uh, was determined to be, um.....uh, the number one priority for landmark designation,
uh, by the Commission. That was in 2015. Uh, but as we indicated, you can go back
several decades into, um, correspondence on the Commission and, uh, publications that
were written, indicating the importance of 109 Market Street. So I'm gonna kind of skip
past that because I .... I do think that's, um.....well understood at this time, but we can....
we can get into those details if you'd like. Uh, in my staff memo that I provided, as well
as the information that, uh, you've received, um ..... from the chair of the Historic
Preservation Commission, there are several other options that are outlined. Um, in my
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memo I listed them as, um, A, B, C, and D. Um, certainly there are a lot of wrinkles to
any of those scenarios that you could spin into options, um, E and F and G and so on.
Um, since our last meeting I've had a conversation with the University of Iowa. I feel
like I have a better understanding of where they are. So I want to walk you through what
I think are the, uh, options for the...... for the Council, um, based on my kind of enhanced
understanding of where the University, uh, stands on this matter. Um, so this doesn't
necessarily follow the memo specifically, but you'll hear a lot of the same things that
were mentioned in the memo. First option would be for the City to do nothing. Um, in
this case we expect the purchase agreement to be finalized and unless a new location is
determined, that is one that is not at the Jefferson courtyard, um, then I fully expect that
this building, 109 Market, the Sanxay-Gilmore House, will be razed this summer. Uh,
the University has made that very clear to me, um, that if they .... uh, take control of the
property, um, they will demolish the building. Um, number two, uh, would be to
facilitate the code changes that are necessary, um, to, uh, allow the church to move the
building to their proposed location, which is the Jefferson courtyard. Uh, this would be
a .... a fairly lengthy process. With a code change like this, I'd recommend that you start
those discussions at the Historic Preservation Commission level. It would eventually
have to get to the Planning and Zoning Commission for consideration, and then, uh, to
the City Council, where you'd have to have three readings. Uh, so you're looking at a
multul.... multi -month process in order to facilitate those code changes. Uh, in this case
you'd.....you'd clearly be preserving the structure itself, um, but, um, in doing so, it
would no longer be eligible for landmark status, and as you've heard from the
correspondence that I've, uh, previously mentioned, uh, you may also, um, be detracting
from the historical relevance, significance of the, uh, properties that are on Jefferson, uh,
Street, uh, as well. Um, I do want to, you know, we all, uh, or most of us, um,
experienced the, um.....challenges that were associated with the cottages, uh, structures
three or four years ago, whenever that was. Um, you know, and one of the takeaways
that .... that I had personally from that is without compromise, sometimes these structures
are lost forever, and that's not a good solution for anybody. I'm not sayin' that facil....
facilitating the code changes is necessarily the preferred solution, but I think that's
something that Council needs to keep in mind, um, is that when you're faced with an
alternative of losing the structure permanently, sometimes you have to consider what,
urn ..... other options may be there, even if they're not a preferred or desired solution. So,
again, option .... two would be to facilitate the code changes necessary to move the
church .... or the, um, Sanxay-Gilmore House to the church's proposed location on
Jefferson Street. The third option is one that has not been, um, explored yet, and that is to
really enter in discussions with the church leadership about, uh, options for preservation.
Uh, what the University has told me is that they would walk away from the purchase
agreement if the church would agree to do so as well. Um, that, uh.... obviously they
have a ..... a binding agreement with the church, um, and they would have to get the
church's agreement, but if the ..... if the church was willing to, the University would walk
away and....uh, they would not acquire this land. University does not have an
immediate need for this, uh, piece of property. Um, they are, um, acquiring it with the
intent to hold it until a future need is identified. They see it as.....bein' proximate to their
campus, and they eventually see the need for the campus to grow in that direction.
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Throgmorton/ Geoff, could I.....let me interrupt for a second. I seemed to have gotten distracted.
Could you just restate what option three is?
Fruin/ Option three would be to.....to discuss with the church what other preservation options
might be. I have not had really an opportunity to sit down in detail with the church to,
uh, discuss what may or may not be on the table, um. ... and I think that would be the next
step with....with three. The one thing I.....I'd convey there is that the University will
walk away from the purchase agreement, at least that's what they've indicated to me, if
the church would agree to do so as well. Now that may sound simple, but the reality is
this is a $2.7 million purchase agreement. Okay? I don't expect the church is just going
to want to walk away from $2.7 million. Um.....on top of that, if you think about the
next steps, um.....uh, obviously the.....the City's goal or the Council's goal at that time
would be to preserve the building in place, I presume, and so that property no longer
carries that type of price tag, if the church was still willing to .... wanting to sell that
property. If they determine that they no longer have a need, or in this case what I believe
is they have a need to raise capital to reinvest into their main building, urn .... if they were
to walk away from this purchase agreement.....they're probably not going to find 2.7
million out in the community from a suitor, um, when the City is going to insist either
through designation or some other way that the building be preserved in place. The 2.7
reflects bare ground is what I'm trying to say. Um, again, um, you know, my
understanding in .... in some just very preliminary discussions with the church, uh,
representative is .... is that that money is really needed to reinvest into their building and
to ensure their long-term viability in downtown Iowa City. So, as we explore these other
options, you just have to expect that there's going to be some conversation about whether
the, you know, the church stays in downtown Iowa City if they can't (noise on mic,
unable to hear speaker) transaction, or if they.....they don't complete this. Uh, the other
part of three would be to potentially discuss the, uh, church's interest in moving the
building to the City -owned parking lot, which is across the street on Market Street. Uh,
this is, uh, you have a.....aerial shot of that in your packet, uh, I believe, but it's a small
parking lot. Have an isolated parking lot that is owned by .... um, the City. Uh, it, um....
right now serves, you know, primarily for some permit parking. Um, it also, uh, on
Sundays serves not only Gloria Dei Church, but a lot of the downtown churches, a lot of,
uh.... uh, church patrons will use option .... or I'm sorry, the parking lot, the City parking
lot, urn ...... uh, when they come down for that.....for that Sunday service. It's not a
critical need in our parking system. Um.....and so, you know, I think we'd have to ask if
we want to give up that asset to, uh, ensure the.....the preservation of the structure. Um,
as indicated in the memo, a move across the street to Market Street would also put the
designation at risk. Um ..... uh...... so it could be that .... that this move, uh, while it
preserves the building as I've talked about with the church's proposed location, that it...it
may not preserve it in a way that, uh, qualifies it for landmark designation in the future.
Um, I indicated in the memo that just on a rough square footage calculation, looking at
comparable sales, we would value that parking lot at about a million dollars. Um,
obviously when it comes to selling a parcel like that, and .... and it hasn't been discussed
in my time here, uh, a lot more analysis has to go into land at a, um.....a.....a.....a
reasonable sale price. You have to look at the development potential on the property and
some of the unique site characteristics, but just on a rough square footage basis, uh,
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you're lookin' at a million dollar asset right there. Um ...... I would expect that the, um,
the church would want to own that parcel too as opposed to the City being in type of a
lease situation, um, and so you're probably lookin' at a situation in which you would
have to, uh, turn that property over to the church, allow them to move the, uh, Sanxay-
Gilmore House there and then if there's any remainder, parking on the north of the site,
off of the alley, that that would be for the church's exclusive use. There are, again, a
number of different wrinkles that can go into any of those options. There have been other
options discussed, uh, such as moving the building slightly to the east in the existing
Gloria Dei, uh, Church lot. Um, I'm not describing those tonight because I don't think
that they're, um, of interest to the .... to the parties, either .... in that case to the church, and
also the preservation in place option, um, as I indicated, ub, that the University has no
interest in that option. So I started ..... I started by sayin' it's a tough issue. I think you
understand that. Um .... there's not a really great option, uh, for the City here. Obviously
there is a purchase agreement, uh, a legal, binding agreement between, uh, two parties.
Uh, we don't have a say in that agreement, uh, but we do have some .... some options that,
um, that we can facilitate or that we can pursue and.....as I described with option one,
which is do nothing, I think the structure, um, is eventually demolished. I think that takes
place this summer and I .... I would tell ya if I thought there was any hope of finding a
different outcome by doing nothing, but I think by doing nothing, that structure.... meets
the wr.... meets the wrecking ball. Uh, option two would not cost the City anything in
terms of dollars. You would certainly, um.....uh, cost something in terms of the impact
that the move would have on that Jefferson Street courtyard to the surrounding properties
on Jefferson and ultimately to the Sanxay-Gilmore House, and that third option that I
talked about, um.....focusing on the .... on the parking lot, um, solution, you know, would
cost the City roughly a million dollar asset, and .... and that's not knowing if the church is
at all interested in that option, but .... um, I think they'd at least probably want to sit down
and.....and talk about it. So at this point, um.....you know, again, any code change that
we want to entertain is gonna take several months. Um, if that's the option that the
Council wants to .... to explore, we probably need to get that process started pretty soon
here. Um, the .... the church is anxious to .... to know what's, uh, where the City's position
is on that. Uh, so that would need to be started, uh, pretty soon here. Um, what I'm
lookin' for tonight is just some direction on how you want me to, uh, pursue things going
forward. I think a logical next step would be for .... for me and perhaps the Mayor to
reach out to the church and see if. ... we can have a conversation, um, with them about
that third option and just see what is and what is not on the table, urn ...... and then
probably, um, I'd circle back and report to you and whether it's a work session or a
memo on how that, um, takes place, but .... again, I also don't want to enter those
discussions if, for example, you tell me the parking lot's completely off the table.
Um.....so..... I think at this point I'll just turn it over to the Mayor and you guys can have
a conversation. I'll answer any questions that you can. Um, Bob Miklo is here,
um.....uh, can answer questions, um.....however you'd like to proceed.
Throgmorton/ I'd like to start by asking a couple questions ...... that have to do with the possible
use of the Jefferson Street site and when I ask these questions it doesn't mean I'm
advocating we do this. I just wanna know something. So....I.....I need to know precisely
what actions the Historic Preservation Commission and the Council would have to take in
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order for the Jefferson Street site to be used. And also what legal constraints would
apply. In other words, if there's a rezoning, does that mean if there's objections from
nearby landowners, etc., that there'd have to be a super -majority, or whatever, whatever
the legal constraints might be. So in other words would we have to have at least six votes
in favor of taking action or would four be sufficient? And.....then I'm wondering what
would happen if we said no. That site is not available. I'm curious, and I don't know if
we want to talk about that in public, frankly, but that.....that is somethin' I think we
ought to have sort of (both talking)
Frain/ ....talkin' about the parking lot site?
Throgmorton/ No, I'm talking about the Jefferson Street site.
Frain/ Oh, well in that case .... that site, if the Council's not willin' to support it then.....
Throgmorton/ Well, I'm not sure that's true, because we haven't talked with Gloria Dei yet.
Frain/ Understand. Okay.
Throgmorton/ So ... those....those are, all right so the ..... I don't know about the legal constraints
question that I asked initially. I don't know if you have.....
Frain/ Yeah, maybe, Bob, if you'd like to come up and describe the code changes that are
necessary.
Miklo/ Sure. The, uh, the .... the receiving, the proposed receiving site on Jefferson Street is
zoned Plan High Density Multi -Family. It's our highest, uh, multi -family, uh, densi.... or
zoning category. The green space is actually needed to fulfill the density requirements
for the existing building there. So in order to allow that green space to be used for
another use, the property would need to be upzoned or the, uh, the High Density Multi -
Family zone would need to be amended to allow greater density or greater use, uh, than,
urn .... what's currently allowed. The other action that would have to occur for a structure
to be, urn .... uh, erected or installed on that site would be Historic Preservation approval,
and they would refer to the Secretary of Interior guidelines for treatment of historic
properties in historic districts, and .... we.....we did get some feedback from the State
Historic Preservation Office in Des Moines that administers those..... those guidelines or
those requirements on a statewide level and they provide us, uh, with advice from time to
time. The indication is that, um, it'd be creating a false sense of history to move a, uh,
building from another era into this site. Um, it would also, um.....um, harm the value of
the green space itself, which is historic. Uh, we know that it's been vacant since at least
1865. Um, at that time it became the courtyard for the, uh, St. Agatha, uh, Seminary.
Uh, before that there's indications that there was a stable in that area for the, uh, Park
House Hotel, urn .... and we don't know if there was a building or if this was simply a
grounds where horses were .... or ..... and ... and buggies were mounted and .... and
dismounted. Urn .... so those would be the .... the concerns of the Historic Preservation
Commission in terms of putting something on that property.
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Throgmorton/ Okay. So I want ya to slow down and go back over this, again. Uh, I don't know
about other people, but it becomes pretty quickly and it'd kinda..... kind of complicated.
Right, so there are two things at stake, as I understand it. One has to do with the historic
landmark designation for the building itself. The other has to do with the site at which it
would be located on Jefferson Street and what that might do to the Jefferson Street
historic district.
Miklo/ Right.
Throgmorton/ Yeah, so .... slow down please and go over both of those.
Miklo/ Sure! Generally, uh...... uh (coughing) based on the information we have, and the
information from the State Historic Preservation Office, the Sanxay-Gilmore House is
clearly eligible for the National Register of Historic Places. Generally when a building
is moved, except in rare circumstances, it loses its National Register status. The whole
point is preserving history where it happened or on the location where it happened and
not picking it up and .... and.....and moving it. Uh, so that would be a con .... concern.
However, the building currently is not designated as a landmark, um, so the concern
would be at the receiving site, which is part of a historic district and is recognized as a
historic property, and that's where the Commission, I think, would have to, um, think
long and hard about whether to move a building into that site. It would question the, uh,
or possibly reduce the historic value of the courtyard itself.
Throgmorton/ And would that have adverse affects on the historic district itself?
Miklo/ Potentially. That's the indication from the State Historical Society.
Throgmorton/ So some uncertainty about that.
Miklo/ Right. The point being that the courtyard is .... is a.....is a, uh, is a record of the history of
that .... of that neighborhood. It's one of the, uh, few undeveloped parcels in the older
part of the city.
Throgmorton/ 0 ... okay, I could probably follow up on things, but I want to give other people a
chance to ask questions.
Botchway/ Before you go, Bob, the second part of the question I guess I missed in in regards to
the property needing to be upzoned and what I think Jim was talking about, legal
ramifications around that. So what's the process by which that would need to, uh, take
place?
Miklo/ It would either need to .... to rezone into a higher designation, such as the CB -5 zone, the
Central Business, uh, service zone, um, and that would be, uh, a public.... or reviewed by
the Planning and Zoning Commission, recommendation from them, and then a public
hearing by you, and with all rezonings, um, it would, um, be subject to a protest of the
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neighboring prop .... or neighboring property owners. If owners of 20% of the
neighboring properties object, then it would take six out of seven, uh, votes to approve
the zoning. The other option would be to amend the current, the.....the.....the code that
applies to the current zone, the High Density Multi -Family zone, to allow greater density
or somehow, uh, address the issue that we'd be taking land that's necessary to support the
current residential use on the property and allowing additional use there.
Throgmorton/ And there are other properties that have that same, um .... zoning designation? So
any alteration of the (both talking)
Miklo/ ....possibly could have implications for other..... properties that are zoned High Density
Multi -Family.
Throgmorton/ But that'd be a majority vote only. That .... that kind of amendment (both talking)
Miklo/ ....code amendment is, yeah. Um.....there have been some questions about whether, uh,
an owner can protest a code amendment and I'm not sure if that would be the case here or
not. We .... we can look into that.
Fruin/ Mayor (mumbled) also add, you know, we haven't spent a whole lot of time gettin' into
how that code amendment might look, but I would imagine we would try to tailor it as
narrowly as possible to this situation. In other words, the upzoning, if you will, or the
allowance for this type of thing would only occur if. ... a structure like this fits, I mean it
would probably be a .... a ..... a one-time solution, um, but again, until we can really get
into the details, I .... I can't promise ya that, but I wouldn't put a whole lot of stock into...
you know .... a.....a change that would have a .... a negative ripple effect to other similarly
zoned properties across the city.
Throgmorton/ I think I wanna make .... make sure I'm clear about one other point, which I know
you mentioned a couple times but I want to make sure we understand it. Neither you nor
I, or anybody else on staff as far as I know, has had a conversation with Gloria Dei
people about......tryin' to invent alternative (mumbled) satisfy them as well as other
interests.
Fruin/ That's correct. Yeah. I've had .... I've had some conversations with .... with a
representative, but it's more just been tryin' to understand what the purchase agreement
is, uh, learn a little bit about the solution that they brought to the table with the Jefferson.
It hasn't been exploring alternative solutions.
Throgmorton/ But we have with the University?
Fruin/ That's correct. Yes.
Botchway/ My question speaks to, um.....looking at option...... C, A is how I put it in my notes,
around the City -owned parking lot or any type of moving of a structure, will there will
any type of a rezoning change that would come from that?
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Miklo/ City parking lot, I believe, is currently zoned P for Public, so it would .... could be rezoned
to what some of the adjacent properties are zoned, which would allow a structure on the
site.
Botchway/ The other one, and I don't know if you mentioned this option, but it was a part of a
packet beforehand was the option to move it back into the parking lot. That similar
situation as well?
Frain/ To the Gloria Dei parking lot? (several talking) Yeah, I ... I have confirmed that Gloria
Dei is not interested in that option.
Throgmorton/ But we have not talked with Gloria Dei people.
Frain/ We have not sat down with anybody except one of their representatives, and as I floated
that, the .... the quick answer and I think a firm answer that I received is that parking is too
critical to their operations. Um, now yes, that parking could be replaced, um, across the
street, but I think it's the close proximity, next-door type of proximity, or front door type
of proximity, that is incredibly important for that church and their congregation. So,
I .... I'm comfortable in telling you that Gloria Dei is not interested in that option. Now,
maybe we sit down with a different group and.....minds change and .... and they start to
look at that, but .... I feel confident based on what I've been told that that's probably not
on the table.
Miklo/ (several talking) ....option would not require a zone change. It would be part of the
religious institution and .... and would be permitted by the current zoning.
Thomas/ And that option wouldn't have an impact on the ... the purchase agreement. There would
be an opportunity to ..... you know, revise the purchase agreement. We .... if we can work
it out on the .... the parking lot of the church, then the purchase agreement could move
forward.
Frain/ Yeah. The purchase agreement is .... is fairly vague on ..... on the actual location, uh,
basically it...it puts the, uh, onus on the church to find another location, and so the
University will financially participate in the moving, uh, but they are not requiring that it
go to any specific location. So if the church were to say, yeah, that's acceptable, um, my
read on that purchase agreement is that the University would help fund that move, uh, but
that no amendment to the purchase agreement would be needed.
Thomas/ So the $2.7 million purchase price would still be in effect. We would just be solving
the problem in a different way.
Frain/ My understanding, yes.
Taylor/ And that was my question on the cost to move as we know from the recent, um, home
that we had moved, the cost and who would participate in that.
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Fruin/ Yeah, uh, as of now there's been no request for the City to participate and, um, my
understanding is that the church and the University would be splitting that cost.
Taylor/ But again that might be something we would need to talk to the Gloria Dei folks, discuss
that with them.
Throgmorton/ Yeah, see how far that goes. Yeah.
Thomas/ So, Geoff, with respect to the parking, cause it sounds.... the.... the option of moving it
to the church parking lot is ... the hang-up there is the loss of parking, correct?
Fruin/ Correct. Loss of front door parking.
Thomas/ Front door parking, meaning...... right next to the .... so the .... so the idea of any portion
of the City parking lot would not be considered.....would not be acceptable?
Fruin/ Well I ..... I think that there's probably an interest there, and I'm sure Gloria Dei users, um,
frequent that.....that parking lot. Um, what I'm trying to convey is that.....the parking
spaces are not created equally. The ones in front of the front door are.....critical to their,
they view as critical to their operations. So they don't wanna.... they don't warm lose
those. Um, you know, whether it's folks with mobility, um .... uh.....uh, concerns or
elderly or whatnot, they need that front door parking and with the move to the church,
they don't feel like they would have sufficient spaces to .... to meet whatever needs they
have.
Thomas/ It's a little bit out of the .... the, uh, what would.....what has been discussed thus far, but
one .... one thought I was having with regard to the parking would be to, um.....look at
street parking, again, which you know we've had this issue before. Um ..... it seems to me
if we could identify par.... street parking locations, uh.....namely right along Dubuque
Street, which is the frontage of the church, uh, along Dubuque, or maybe I shouldn't say
the frontage, but it does have street .... it's not the principle frontage, but it has frontage
along Dubuque Street. Uh.....the, Dubuque is currently a four -lane street. Um, I believe
it may be possible that .... that Dubuque could be reduced to a three -lane street .... in which
case the, uh...... that parking lane that is lost or ..... or gained so to speak, could be, uh,
developed as parking along the church frontage, uh, and not .... right now in looking at the
parking that's allowed along Dubuque, it is allowed on Sunday mornings. Uh, this would
be something which would be allowed, uh, all day long. And, uh, you know, my estimate
is the .... you know, the parking along Dubuque if you go from Market to Jefferson would
be about 12 parking stalls, something like that. So it'd come pretty close to the, I think
we estimated 16? Parking stalls?
Fruin/ Sounds about right (both talking)
Thomas/ So if we're .... if we're arguing about four .... if that's an acceptable alternative, I .... I feel
we're pretty close to compensating for the parking loss. The .... the placing the historic
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building directly adjacent to the church, I think, has some advantages. It, um, in terms of
programming, as long as they want to maintain the ministry, it would be right there, uh,
so there'd be a direct connection, so to speak. Um, from a preservation standpoint it
would be right next door so that .... is about as close as we can get to the current location.
It's the same orientation. Um.....so I would hope we could figure out a, you know, a
mitigation of the .... of the off-street parking, and urn ...... I would .... I would argue, and I
don't know if the church would agree, but that having, uh, street frontage parking along
Dubuque Street would be pretty close.
Taylor/ Along the lines of John's discussion, those probably the church would want those to be
handicap accessible type spots, which we'd have to designate.... they'd have to designate
that for their access, but, uh, also if. ... you'd mentioned that if it was moved to the
Jefferson Street it might, um, damage its landmark status. If it's moved just slightly to
the east, does that still .... would that still deter from its landmark status?
Miklo/ Um, for National Register, um .... properties ..... they should be ..... all efforts should be
made to avoid them if you've listed the National Park Service; however, if a building is
moved, if it's in close proximity, same orientation, general neighborhood, there's a
possibility that it could still be designated on the National Register.
Botchway/ So I .... I guess I'll step in here. I feel pretty comfortable.... or not comfortable but I
could safely say, you know, some deliberation or at least the preparation from the last
meeting holds true for me. Um, you know, L ....I think at the time I was in favor of
looking at option B if we had to make a decision that night, if Geoff was saying we
needed something. Um, for me, there's a couple of I guess not check boxes but things I
kinda want to walk through. I do think it's safe to say that I think we need to have a
conversation with the church. I do think this is kind of awkward and I don't know if
I'm ..... upset as you know me I don't really (mumbled) frustrated because, you know, I
appreciate what you're doing, Geoff, as kind of being the .... the middle person in all this.
Um, but it almost seems there's a lack of kind of.....planning about the fact that this is
going to come our way in some way, shape, or form, and almost in a combustible
situation that's been somewhat similar, if we didn't have this conversation now. So....
that's frustrating to say the least because I, you know, I .... (mumbled) expected, you
know, somebody to make a public comment or two, just in the last couple weeks, but....
maybe it's going to happen tonight. So that frustration may, you know, subside. Uh, I
would agree with, I mean, we were actually thinking on the same wavelength for a
second there (laughs) so I agree about looking at .... if this is truly about parking, um, I'm
interested in what we can work out. I can tell you two things right now. I'm not
interested in moving forward on, um, moving the property to the Jefferson Street
location. Um, I think you....I mean, Bob, I appreciate you going through all the
different, um, code changes and, Geoff, as well. Um, kind of talking about what that
would look like. I ... and I also just think it....it would just detract from the actual historic
designation that's currently in that .... on that property, and so I'm .... I'm ..... I'm literally
not interested in that at all. I don't know how.....how clear I could be in that. Um,
the .... the other part of this is I ..... I'm very tentative with my support about the City
parking lot. Um, you know.. A can say it's my lack of awareness that we have the
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parking lot or we own that particular parking lot, um, but you know, even Geoff just
saying a million dollars, I mean to me .... I know you're just throwing out that evaluation
based on, you know, similar evaluations of other property, but, you know I .... I feel some
type of way about the fact that that could be a .... you know, I've been thinking about a
potential of affordable housing, uh, building or something along those lines. I mean I
don't necessarily know if the space speaks to it, but .... I'm interested in thinking about it
more than just the conversation tonight. Um, but I can safely say again .... a conversation
with the church, not interested in the Jefferson Street location, um, and I'm tentative.
When I say that I .... I don't think that they're in the.....in the conversation deliberation
between, you know, yourselves and other folks at the table, um, that's something that I
think is almost used as a .... a last conversational piece, but I do think that, you know, we
need to get to a conversation with you two, um, the church, I think the Historical
Preservation Commission should be there, um, Friends, and obviously the University as
well.
Throgmorton/ I wanna share some of the frustration that Kingsley just, um, noted. It appears as
though the University and the church entered into an agreement based on a presumption,
a presumption that we would act in a way that was consistent with what they wanted to
do, and that's a pretty big presumption. It ... it appears as though that was done without
consultation with City staff. I .... I assume that's the case, I don't know. Uh...... doesn't
feel good to be placed in that situation.
Fruin/ Yeah, I .... I can tell ya, I.....I had preliminary conversations about this maybe ...... I'm
guessin' here...... three weeks, four weeks before the article came out in the paper, when I
think that the agreement had been pretty much landed on by both parties and they had
loca.... location identified as option D, that's when I became aware.
Throgmorton/ That's what I thought. Yeah.
Mims/ Well I (coughs) I would just say, um, in terms of that frustration, when Kingsley and I
were talking the other day I expressed that same frustration, but probably a little more
strongly (laughs) (several talking) I won't use those words publicly. Um, yeah, I .... I feel
like this has been ..... I feel like the two parties, um, kind of ignored the importance of....
the history, um, of this building and have entered into an agreement and then just dumped
it in our laps to try and make sure that.....this building is preserved in some form or
another, and, um, that's very frustrating. Very frustrating! So....
Fruin/ What I would say is, even the early conversations I had with .... with the church and then
subsequently University, um, I.....I believe they felt, and they still feel, that the option
that they provided is a good option, um, for .... uh, historic preservation. I don't.....I don't
think that they had any ill intention, matter of fact I think they went, um ..... above and
beyond what most parties would do in this type of situation, and tried to bring a solution
forward, um, when the purchase agreement was executed. Now could there have been
more community dialogue? Uh, potentially, but you're also talkin' about a purchase
agreement, which tends not to happen in.....in the open. Um, so I .... I, again, I just want
to stress the conversations that I've had, I think they.....they tried, particularly the church.
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I'm not sure how much involved the University was, but think the church really tried to
find an option that, um, they felt the City would be receptive to, um, and that, you know,
um, allowed them to continue to use the building in the way they wanted to.
Throgmorton/ Yeah (both talking)
Fruin/ I just want to make sure the intent piece is .... (both talking)
Throgmorton/ I personally don't want to make the University or the church, uh, I don't wanna
make `em look like the bad guys, but I think it's.....there's an important point here, or
principle here. It's one thing to .... believe you have a good solution that all part .... you
know, every interested party would agree to. It's another to consult with the other parties
and find out. So .... that's what frustrates me about it. That could have been done quite
privately. I believe. Now maybe..... maybe there are restrictions with .... about what the
University can do about transactions like that. I don't know! Yeah. It's a frustrating
thing.
Taylor/ I think it's frustrating too because it's .... just because of the parties that are involved. It's
kind of a sensitive sort of thing. It's not like they're two private parties, businesses or
corporations. It's.....it's the church and the University, uh, which.....that's a very
sensitive (both talking)
Throgmorton/ ....collaborate with the University. We don't want the church to leave. Yeah
(laughs)
Cole/ Can I jump in here for a sec? Um ..... I guess I disagree with my colleagues a little bit on
this. I .... I view this proposal as a incredibly thoughtful effort on the part of the church,
as well as the University to anticipate what they thought we would want, and I think it
was done with great care, um, and I very much appreciate them doing that. Um, so I
guess I would disagree a little bit with that. There's one scene that I haven't seen
developed yet. I understand that doing nothing would mean the house would go. If that's
the case, I'm assuming that that means the .... the church place .... I mean I know that they
place value on it, but they don't place a large financial value on that. They still get their
$2.7 million. So if doing nothing means that it's destroyed, what I would like for us to
explore is option C, with the view towards engaging with a, uh, an exchange type thing
where the church or the Uni.... would .... would essentially gift it to the City in exchange
for the City providing that location and then possibly landmarking it and then reselling it
to a non-profit. So that's just one iteration that I haven't seen explored. That may be
totally unfeasible, but my starting point is that they're saying that if doing nothing .... it
will be destroyed. Um, so it seemed to be at least that discussion could be there. Now if
that .... if.....if there's no seem or that's not a possibility, um, then I think option two for
me would be to explore this, but I think one thing that's critical for me is I think it's
incredibly important that we maintain a variety of housing types, a variety of housing and
worship, um, especially in our downtown, um, and it seems like the University is ... and
the .... and the church as well are really making an effort to make that happen, and so I
want to ensure that whatever option we explore, um, the church does not lose the .... the
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$2.7 million. As I understand it, that's a critical part of their efforts to stay downtown.
So that's sort of......
Throgmorton/ I didn't fully track the alternative you're laying out. Could you walk our .... walk
us through it a little bit (both talking)
Cole/ Well, I'll try to do it more slowly. Um, again this would be a starting point. It's my
understanding that doing nothing means that potentially the house will be destroyed.
That's my step one. Given that that's the case, um, the church is not placing a great deal
of financial value. I know the church places a great deal of emotional value on this
building, and I know that they cherish this too, but it's a hard decision for them to make.
So given that that's their starting point, I think our staff could engage in discussions with
the church about a possible transfer to the City of the structure, with the view that we
would then explore using the .... the, uh, Market space, um, as a possibility, um, that they
would .... that the house would be built, or transferred, to that location. (both talking) And
then (both talking)
Throgmorton/ To the church's parking lot?
Cole/ No, to the (several talking) the City parking lot. (both talking)
Throgmorton/ Yeah.
Cole/ ....Market Street, with a view then that after it was remodeled, we could sell it to a third
party non-profit, maybe affordable housing, maybe Friends of Historic Preservation. So
the actual dollar figure in my view would be relati.... hopefully relatively low. I mean we
would have some holding costs and those sorts of things. I think we can absorb the lack
of parking, but to me that's the most viable. Um, I don't want to get too much into the
minutia of.....you know, the, uh, the church as well as what the University's done in
terms of where to put the structure, but that to me seems at least a starting point for
discussion with the church and the University. So that's.....the option that I would like to
explore. It may turn out that that's not viable, uh, but I think given where we are, Geoff,
it doesn't sound like we have a lot of time so maybe we're at sort of the eleventh hour.
We don't have the time to do that, but .... okay! So that .... that's at least what I would like
to explore.
Frain/ Yeah, I think we have time for those conversations. I guess what I wanted to convey to
you is simply that.....there's.....there's a code process that has to take place that's
multiple months, and the church in particular who has a responsibility of moving this and
determining their future..... they're kind of anxious to know where the City's going to
stand on this. So, the sooner that we .... we can.....we can start the better, but I don't want
to paint the eleventh hour picture to you. We do have some time.
Throgmorton/ So the purchase takes effect, I don't..... somewhere in (both talking)
Frain/ Summer, yeah.
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Throgmorton/ Yeah so ..... we gotta set the process in motion, if we agree upon a process. But we
do have sometime. Yeah.
Mims/ I'm more interested I think in John's proposal of trying to look at, um.....alleviating some
of the parking issue and moving it .... just due east, closer to the church. Um, I think that
it gives .... it gives the building the same orientation, urn ...... I'm not sure the moving costs
are necessarily any less because everything you've gotta do to get it in the air, etc., but
(clears throat) you know, keeps it .... keeps the same orientation. You're basically just
moving it sideways, um, and.....but trying to.....to be creative with the church in how we
can make up that parking, whether it's, you know, along Dubuque Street or, um,
whatever, you know, whatever other options. I .... I would see that as my first choice.
Um, I .... I'm with Kingsley. I'm not ready to ..... I'm not ready to give up the City
parking across the street. Um, I think.....I'm concerned about, um, making a quick
decision on that property. Um, I.....I think that's kind of what we ended up doing with
the City Hall parking lot was making.....because of a timeframe, making a quick decision
that we gave up a lot of. ... we lost a lot of opportunity with the City parking lot in terms
of expanding City Hall or other things, um, and I .... I don't believe that was the best
choice and ended up being kind of the only choice we had in terms of preserving that
church. So I'm not.....I'm not ready in the short timeframe that we really have to solve
this or try to solve this to .... to give up that parking acro..... that's City owned. So I
would like to work with the church in terms of finding other parking and then I guess my
second choice would be actually looking at the location on Jefferson Street.
Throgmorton/ Let me ask, uh, a clarifying question. I'm pretty much in agreement with you. I
think movin' it 10 feet (laughs) or whatever the distance is, it isn't very far, to the east is
a pretty good alternative, if. .... if we can get the church to agree to it (laughs)
Mims/ Yeah.
Throgmorton/ Yeah. Uh, but with regard to the church, do I understand correctly that according
to the purchase agreement, they would receive .... is it 2.7 million for the site, uh, the
University would move the building to some undiscl .... indeterminate location, but the
presumption is it would be Jefferson Street. The church would retain ownership of the
building and continue to use the building, is that correct?
Frain/ That's correct.
Throgmorton/ Yeah, that's a pretty good deal!
Frain/ Except I think there's a cost -share in the move. I don't think the University's payin' full
freight for the move.
Botchway/ I mean I (mumbled, clears throat) Excuse me! I'm supportive of what Susan said as
well, I mean that kind of goes back to my option B, I mean ultimately, um, Geoff, I think
you started it off greatly, um, by talking about compromise. Um, I think that, you know,
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um, this is a compromise, um, and again this is the first blush, I mean not to say that there
aren't prior, I mean, additional options and conversations that need to be had, but I think
that for me initially, that's where the conversation has to start, um, because .... you know,
and Bob, help me if I'm wrong on this, from a historical preservation standpoint, you
know, I feel like, and I haven't necessarily had to argue before a State Historic
Preservation, but I feel like I'm pretty comfortable in saying, you know, if it was moving
10 feet rather than 30 feet or 50 feet, the argument would be, um, a little more compelling
than it would be if it was a lot longer. Is that the case? I mean I know that we had
the .... the prior example that I think Pauline mentioned where it was moved a substantial,
um, distance, but this is not moving it a long distance, um, at least to my knowledge.
Miklo/ Ge ... generally moving it .... keeping in the same orientation, facing the same direction in
the same block, that .... I believe would be acceptable (difficult to hear, coughing in
background) Historic Preservation Office. I don't know that for sure but given other
cases where historic buildings have been moved and kept their status, um, that would be
the direction I would think would happen here.
Botchway/ And that's where I go back to Geoff s point about compromise, because ultimately I
do think that .... you know, I don't mean to say like mean things about the church. I hope
that nobody took it, you know, personally but you know ultimately when I think about
compromise, I initially go to historic preservation first. And so we want to preserve the
church. I'm not saying that the church and the University aren't part of that deliberation
and conversation, but ultimately from my perspective that's the first thing I'm thinking
about as far as what we're going to do, and so my .... the best option I see here, um, is
looking at moving it 10 or however many, 12 feet, to historically preserve the church, get
that landmark designation. Um, I mean obviously the option of leaving it there would be
the best option to get that landmark designation but it sounds like (laughs) that option
(several talking) not a good option (laughing) so.....so, and then ultimately whatever
iteration we go from that, still is that first step of making sure that we're historically
preserving the property, and so if it moves it 12 feet and then the next option is we have
to move it 30 feet over to the Market Street (mumbled) has to be .... that's my only
number one kind of focus.
Throgmorton/ Yeah. I wanna walk back my use of 10 feet (laughs) (several talking) .....50 feet
or whatever the amount would be, to the east (several talking)
Miklo/ ......was moved to the adjacent parking lot I believe there's six feet between the parking
lot and the.....and the property line. So, urn .... the house is maybe 25 -feet wide, so 25, 30
feet.
Botchway/ It was an inch or two from the drawings! (laughter)
Mims/ You know I think also...... while in the initial discussions the church has .... has kind of
indicated they're not at all interested in giving up any of that parking, I think as you said,
Kingsley, it comes down to compromise, and I.....and I understand the money is really
important to the church and we want to keep them downtown, so want them to be able to,
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you know, benefit from the University's interest in that property. Urn...... but.....
hopefully they do also care about that preservation and if they do, then trying to find a
compromise with the parking and allow the building to stay, you know, just move it 30,
40, 50 feet, whatever it is, to the east so it has the same orientation, keeps it as similar as
possible to what it is now without leaving it where it is now. Um, I think could.... could
possibly be the best solution that we can get to, and I would hope that we could, um, you
know, find some creative ways to help them with parking, that .... that they would find
acceptable or at least acceptable enough that, um.....would get them over the hump, so
that we can preserve it there.
Taylor/ I ... I agree with Susan, John, and Kingsley and .... and I'm definitely, uh, not in favor of a
Jefferson Street move for a number of reasons. I think for the stability of the building,
uh, for one thing and preserving that green space that historically was for a peaceful
solitude which we all know that's few and far between in the Iowa City area, particularly
downtown, and so compromising the historical value of that and perhaps the church
didn't realize that when they thought of that location, as well as the historical, uh, value
of the building itself. Um, I think it all still boils down to we need to meet with the
church and maybe even the University and .... and discuss those parking options
that .... that John had mentioned and, uh, that they might not have been aware of that we
could do.
Mims/ I think it's important though for us to keep in mind that, you know, if staff comes back
and says ..... you know, that parking lot's off the table, you know, as Geoff is basically
saying it is now. You know, if after additional conversation with the church he comes
back and says, they said no. They'll let this thing be torn down instead of moving it to
the east on their parking lot. Then I think that brings us back to that conversation of
Jefferson Street again, and at least having some consideration of that. So I .... I just bring
that up because as people sit here maybe and say, no, I'm not at all interested in that, we
may be back to talking about that, and I think we may be back to.....us having to make
that choice of do we want to see that church torn down, or are we willing .... are we
willing to accept a compromise of moving it to Jefferson Street, although that is certainly
not the ideal.
Taylor/ And are we absolutely certain that the University, that's their only option was to
demolish the building, I mean as we saw with, uh, the.....the option over here, um, the
developer, uh, was willing to compromise and .... and work around the church, and would
there be some, uh, possibility of talking with the University about doing something like
that.
Frain/ Yeah, I .... I have, and in no uncertain terms I've been told they're not interested in this site
unless it's bare ground, but if preservation is a priority, they will walk away from the....
the ... the, uh, purchase agreement. That takes the church's cooperation to do so,
um.....so...... if. ... if it ..... if preserve in place is what we want, um, the University's not
gonna be a part of that solution, other than to walk away from their purchase agreement if
the .... if the church would agree (both talking)
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Throgmorton/ Yeah, and if they walk away from the purchase agreement, then .... no money gets
transferred and that might influence the church's decision about what to do.
Frain/ Yeah, you know ...... (both talking) This isn't the only property in the, um, in the .... the 2.7
isn't just for this property. There's another, um, property on Clinton Street too, so I .... I
don't know whether the .... whether the church and University would, you know, be
interested in, um, or .... you know, pursuing the Clinton Street property and carving this
one off. Um, I kind of doubt it cause I don't think there's much development potential
for a campus -style building, uh, with just the Clinton frontage. I think you need to get
deeper into the lot but.....
Throgmorton/ That's the way it sounded to me when we were talkin' with University people.
Frain/ Right.
Throgmorton/ It sounds to me .... tell me if y'all agree, it sounds to me that, uh, Geoff and I, I
think, should meet with Gloria Dei representatives, explore possibilities, see if we can
work out some ..... a mutually satisfactory agreement, uh, and then regardless of what the
answer is to that question, come back to the rest of the Council, hopefully within two
weeks! And (several talking) figure out what we're gonna do!
Botchway/ Jim, the only thing I would add as an adden.... (clears throat) The only thing I would
add as an addendum is getting the ... Ginalie, I know she's out in the audience, um,
Historic Preservation Commission and also, um, Friends of Historic Preservation as well
into that conversation. Um.....I think it'd be a .... I mean just from the preservation
standpoint, I think it'd just be good to have (both talking)
Throgmorton/ Well I can say I have advocated that we have multi-party negotiations with all
parties present and that there doesn't seem to be sufficient interest at doing that.
Frain/ Well I haven't ..... I haven't raised that possibility with the ..... with the church or
University. I£..if that's.....if that's of interest I'd be happy to try to facilitate that.
Botchway/ I ..... I would like to ask.
Throgmorton/ Maybe we should.....I'd rather talk with Gloria Dei first.
Botchway/ Yeah, that's fine (both talking)
Throgmorton/ .....may be further interest, but certainly want to know what Alicia and Ginalie
think. I know you've expressed views very clearly in writing, we understand that.
We've talked a lot so, you know, I understand that, but.....um...... it's a conundrum!
(laughs)
Thomas/ You know, in addition to parking along Dubuque Street, which I think seems to be a
very real possibility to me, um, another thought I had had would be for the City, and I
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know this isn't as convenient as street parking along Dubuque, but the City could lease
some portion of the City parking lot to the church as a mitigation. Um, I .... I would
prefer that the, whatever parking would be leased would be on the alleyway side so that,
uh, you know, it wouldn't.....it would.....it would still give us more flexibility in terms
of, you know, ownership of the property and .... and the future of that property. Um, but I
certainly hope we can press the church that, um, you know, we.....like with the Unitarian
site, we would like this to be a win/win.....I view this is how can we achieve a win/win
situation, you know, preserve the historic house, which is used as a ministry by the
church, keep it in close proximity to the .... to the church itself, address the parking, and
preserve what .... what I think is, aside from its, um, historic value, a very beautiful
courtyard in the downtown. I mean there (both talking)
Throgmorton/ (mumbled)
Thomas/ You know.....as a.....as a professional site planner, you know, I .... that site, aside from
its historical significance, is a beautiful space and I enjoy just walking by it, I mean you
know we sort of talked about how it benefits the residents who live around it. Um, it's
one of the most beautiful outdoor spaces in the downtown area. So, placing ..... do we
place the ... the historic house in a parking lot or in a beautiful courtyard (laughs) uh, you
know, sort of makes my head spin, but I .... I understand, you know, this is .... these are
negotiations, but I .... I certainly hope we can work it out.
Throgmorton/ Anything else? Welcome to Council discussions on complicated topics!
(laughter) Thanks, Bob. All right, uh, so we could move to our next item, if there's no
further discussion about that. And, Geoff, you and I can talk a little more about that
tomorrow.
Fruin/ Sure!
Clarification of Agenda Items:
Throgmorton/ Yeah. Let's see.....too many notes, too many notes.....so we're moving to
clarification of agenda items.
Item 3d(4) Curb Ramp 2017 - Resolution accepting the work for the Curb Ramp
2017 Project.
Botchway/ Um, oh man .... what IP is it? So the.....M(4). Simon, this may be a question for
you, and see I.. A see the curb ramp, 2017, and .... so where are we on the completion of
kind of the ADA accessibility curb ramp conversation?
Andrew/ Um, this year's project was, uh, really helpful in making some good progress in the
neighborhoods that, uh, still had raised curbs at a lot of intersections. Um, so, uh, the
predominance of the intersections are round. Willow Creek Park over there, uh, that you
saw in the memo, um, those were largely sidewalks that still had full curbs on `em. So it
wasn't the .... a ramp that had been installed that happened before the truncated domes
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were required or that fell out of requirements with the slope or what have you. It was,
you know, full curbs. So, uh, this was, um.....you know a good place to pick off some of
those we had, about 200 of those left when we did the, um, inventory out of about 5,000
curb ramps, so, uh, this was a .... a big way to accomplish some of those.
Botchway/ I just wanted you to give an update (both talking)
Andrew/ Yep. Thanks!
Item 5a Rezoning Sensitive Areas Plan for Lincoln School — Ordinance rezoning
approximately 3.6 acres of property from Neighborhood Public (P-1) to Planned
Development Overlay Neighborhood Public (OPD/Pl) zone located at 300 Teeters
Court. (REZ17-00016)
Botchway/ The other one is, uh, Item 5a. Um, so I got an email from (several talking) Yeah,
Lincoln (both talking)
Throgmorton/ Can't talk about the rezonings. We have to do that in a formal meeting.
Botchway/ Oh I'm not going (both talking)
Dulek/ ...talk about the substance of it.
Botchway/ Yeah, I just plan on, um, recusing myself Uh, I'll give a brief statement during
Council. There was, I believe a condition rezoning last time, um, that after I.....after I
talked with Eleanor we felt comfortable moving forward. I can tell you right now I have
nothing to do with rezoning, um, but you know, I still want to just in case people may
perceive it, I'll recuse myself.
Item 3f(1) Richard Stapleton: Langenberg
Throgmorton/ Fair enough. How bout Item 3f(1), which is a email from Richard Stapleton who
lives on Langenberg. So, uh... I'm sure y'all read it. He's upset about the traffic, and in
fact he .... he seems to have been hit by a drunken driver out on Langenberg. So.....not
surprisingly he wants us to do something about speeding traffic on that street. What can
we do? There's parking on both sides of the street. We have speed bumps. We're gonna
be building McCollister. Is there anything else we could viably do or has been done, I
don't know, by the Police Department or whoever about that?
Fruin/ Likely not without great expense. Um, we .... we've done targeted radar down there.
We've got logs of all those, um ... uh, I ..... I don't doubt that there's significant traffic
issues there. Certainly we hear about it, but, um, unless we .... we want to go in to
narrowing that road and physically adjusting curb lines, there's not much we can .... we
can do, uh (both talking)
Throgmorton/ ....down there 24 -hours a day (laughs)
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Taylor/ I also was concerned about his letter, of course from the healthcare standpoint and to
hear that somebody was actually injured, and I thought we had approved the speed humps
already on that street (both talking)
Throgmorton/ We have!
Taylor/ But I .... I'm hoping that maybe with the development of McCollister Boulevard at some
point, of course that's a couple years down the line, because right now I think what's
happening, and I've driven over there cause my daughter's in-laws live over in that area,
it .... there, people are cutting through there and they're using it as a cut -through so.....
Fruin/ Absolutely (both talking)
Taylor/ ...doing that they're speeding, they're goin' a little bit too fast, so you know hopefully
over time that's gonna happen, but if there would be anything else .... and then the stops,
maybe the stops at McCollister and Gilbert will.....will help a bit too.
Fruin/ Yeah, I think.....I think you're absolutely right. The .... the McCollister extension is the
best thing that we can do, and that's slated for 2019 construction.
Taylor/ Uh huh.
Thomas/ The, um, collision was at Covered Wagon where it intersects Langenberg. I did see
that on the police report. Um.....(clears throat) it did raise to me the .... the question of
whether a stop sign making that a intersection with stop signs might be something to
consider, uh, there is also that open space, uh, right across the street. I, as I recall I think
I've heard correspondence that, um .... you know, kids play in that space. I wouldn't
doubt that they do, uh, seems like it, you know, it's a close -by open green space, but it's
surrounded by roadway. Uh, so.....it seemed to me, at least with respect to that incident,
uh, if not speeding on Langenberg that, um, considering a stop, you know, putting in
some stop signs there, uh.... and I know that.....I, you know, in speaking with .... with
staff, at least with respect to traffic calming, there is some.... resistance to stop signs. Uh,
I guess my response is that at intersections, there's a .... kind of a different set of
conditions that we're dealing with. Um, and that too, um. .... it's .... it's a relatively
inexpensive way to test if at least the safety might be improved. Um, because that
is .... it's at intersections where collisions tend to occur. You know, they don't occur at
mid -block, they occur at intersections. Um, and I don't know that a .... a traffic circle
would even work there. Um, but it seems to me that stop signs ... if nothing else .... slow
down the traffic where at int.....where traffic interfaces, and so the likelihood of a
collision is lessened and the severity of it is lessened, should it still happen, um, but it
does seem to me that, uh.... you know, it....it could possibly at least improve the situation
at that location, um, and I don't know whether stop signs .... there are some intersecting
streets on Langenberg itself....
Throgmorton/ Right.
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Thomas/ ...whether, uh, stop signs (both talking)
Mims/ Do those have stop signs?
Thomas/ No.
Mims/ That.....okay, that was a question I was going to ask, I mean if. ... if you've got people
speeding down the street then I mean I agree with what you're saying, John. People
aren't necessarily going to like it but what about starting with stop signs at every single
one of those intersections? I mean.....
Botchway/ I would .... I would agree as well, you know I.....
Mims/ We're not traffic engineers. I get that, but at the same time the number of complaints that
we have gotten from people on Langenberg about the severity that they see of the traffic
problems along there. I .... it does, it just makes me start to question should we stick up
stop (several talking)
Thomas/ It's over half a mile, um .... from .... where Langenberg meets Covered Wagon to
Sycamore. And (laughs) so, and as we know the ... it's a 30 -foot wide street, uh, it...
unfortunately there isn't enough parking to narrow the .... the roadway, the perceived
roadway. Um, you know, the traffic calming effect of having cars on the street isn't
happening there, uh.....so it seemed to me that it's..... it's something I think we .... we
could explore and .... and test.
Fruin/ We can certainly.....I.....I can explore that. I can tell you cause I've had a number of
these conversations over the years. Um, sometimes what you get is unintended
consequences, and in this case, you still have people that are tryin' to get from point A to
point B very fast, and so they roll through intersections, they speed up between stop
signs, and oftentimes the stop signs can give a false sense of security to a pedestrian
crossing the street, because the .... the cars start to realize.... these are.....these are people
that aren't cuttin' through one time. These are probably daily commuters that are coming
through that area, and they start to realize that they can just roll these stop signs and .... I
think the worst thing you could do .... and I'm not sayin' it's the case in this one, but
sometimes the worst thing you can do is put up a traffic control that gives a false sense of
security to somebody, um, but I can explore that with our traffic engineering staff and see
what they think. Uh, you know, we can look at, um, striping lines and things like that
to .... to narrow it up, um, but ultimately I just don't think that.... anything is going to get
to the desired result short of building McCollister, and even when you build McCollister
you'll have the occasional cut -through, but.... that's what's needed to relieve traffic from
that neighborhood.
Botchway/ I would also say I mean I'm not a .... I'm not a expert engineer but I .... I am an expert
speeder (laughter) and I would say that in this particular case, I wanna give kudos to staff
fust and foremost because those aren't regular humps, or speed humps. I mean it takes
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some navigation to drive through those (laughter) I'm just telling you, I .... I have to slow
down and so it's .... I say that to say that then the.... the..... the, uh, the email or the .... the
information we got really concerns me, because I mean those are ... those are some of the
ones that I see in some other places. I mean these are some... substantial ones that have
gone in and that worries me from a, kind of a safety point that I think you're bringin' up,
John and Susan, and so to that extent, you know, do we have any data as far as .... if we're
not necessarily going with stop signs, the time of day that we could, I mean I'll tell ya
right now the quickest thing to stop me is police presence, and it only takes a couple of
times, um, I can speak to you about, you know, University Heights. (mumbled) couple of
times where, you know, I've gone through there and, you know, I'm (several talking)
yeah, on Melrose and I'm always gonna go 20, um, through there even though it's 25 and
sol....I think that looking at the times of day, and I'm sure it's during morning and
afternoon times, cause that's normally time when I have done... and I've done it myself
and seen the number of cars, um, looking at that I think ..... I think would be a way of
doing it, at least.....at least initially in response, if we have the .... the staff power to
accommodate in that particular way.
Fruin/ Yeah, we .... we have all kinds of data. We have all, um, I was just pulling up, uh, an
email from our Police Department that I had from, uh, back in May when this previously
came up. Uh, between.... April 6`h and May 15`h we did 18, uh, enforcement stings down
there, if you will, parked a police car down there for durations of time. Um .... the
numbers that they got, you know, they had one .... one car at 34, uh, miles per hour, it's a
25 -mile -per -hour street. One car at 31. In most cases, the max speed was 27, 28. The
average speed was 22, 24. Um.....whether that's because the .... the presence of the police
officer was seen in advance and people were slowin' down, but point bein' we have all
kinds of data that we can .... we can offer. Um, I'm not sayin' that speeding doesn't exist.
I'm sure it does. You wouldn't be getting the complaints, uh, that you get if it....if it
didn't. Um, I can tell ya in this particular case that you got the email on, speed was not a
factor in the ... in the (both talking)
Mims/ Well, and I was just going to say, I mean, this was a drunk driver and so that could
happen anywhere, any time, regardless of speed. That's (both talking)
Fruin/ I don't think it was.....there was no, um.....uh, charges of OWI in this case. I think, uh....
that was ... that was undetermined.
Mims/ Oh, okay.
Throgmorton/ So with regard to Langenberg, I'm lookin' at a map right now. There's only one
significant intersection on Langenberg, and that's with Russell, which is a northside....
north/south street. It apparently starts, or that intersection's about a .... the whole thing's
about a mile, Geoff, you said, from (several responding) half mile. So .... the Langenberg
intersection is about a third of the way in from .... from, uh, Sycamore. And then there's
another two-thirds of the way goin' over to Covered Wagon. So .... you know, maybe a
stop sign could go there, maybe a stop sign could also go at Covered Wagon. People
would roll through it or ignore it.....uh, either one of `em.
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Thomas/ (several talking) I think .... and I understand. I, you know, I live near an intersection
with a stop sign, on Brown Street, and um, at Van Buren, but I would have to say that a
roll.... someone even rolling through that stop sign is better than 30 miles an hour, and
when you have kids.... playing, uh, you know, I know we've discussed there's a huge
difference in terms of the impact of being in a collision at 20 versus 30, you know, it's....
the risks increase.....exponentially. So, um, I think it's certainly something worth
exploring (laughs)
Throgmorton/ Yeah, I think (several talking) possibilities. Yeah.
Fruin/ I .... I hesitate to bring this up, but you know at some point you could look at speed camera
enforcement too. That would take a whole (laughter) big policy discussion (laughter and
several talking) you want a sure-fire solution (laughter) There ya go! (laughs) I'll
assume there's no interest in that and move on! (several talking and laughing)
Thomas/ You know on.....are we through with Langenberg? (several responding)
Throgmorton/ ...move on, yeah.
Cole/ That was a lively discussion! (laughter)
Thomas/ Well you know the next one is on, um.....boy it's not the next one. Wasn't there a
correspondence .... no, I'm sorry, it....it was in the Information Packet. Never mind.
Item 3d(6) South Gilbert Street Trail Connection - Resolution accepting the work
for the South Gilbert Street Trail Connection
Mims/ I was gonna mention, uh, there's a couple different ones in here, but 3d(6), the South
Gilbert Street trail connection. Nice to see some of these way under bid. (several
talking)
Throgmorton/ All right, any other agenda items?
Botchway/ Item 6, just wondering about..... whether or not we're supporting this park
development, like so are we looking at, um, so we're doing the park development. Is this
going to be a part of our park system?
Fruin/ Yes, it already is.
Item 6. Cardigan Park Improvement — Resolution approving plans, specifications, form of
agreement, and estimate of cost for the construction of the Cardigan Park
Improvement Project, establishing amount of bid security to accompany each bid,
directing City Clerk to post notice to bidders, and fixing time and place for receipt
of bids
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Botchway/ So then my question is about this, I mean, with the improvements and other things, I
mean how are we doing about staffing? Actually that's my question. I'm more worried
about .... our park staffing in general. Maybe that's a budget question that I .... (both
talking)
Fruin/ Yeah, um, I think it's.....it's a very legitimate concern and .... and somethin' that ... that is
appropriate for budget. I can tell ya, um, if you look back at the last five or six years of
all the park land and facilities that we've brought on, it's truly astonishing — Terry
Trueblood, Ashton House, Cardigan Park, uh, Frauenholtz-Miller now, uh, has been built
out, uh, and we've acquired a couple other neighborhood parks, um ..... they've taken on a
lot more without any additional staff. Uh, you'll recall three .... two, three months ago,
um, you authorized us to move a, um, vacant Ree position over to the Forestry unit
to .... to provide some relief. Um, in the proposed budget that you'll discuss on Saturday,
there are no new Parks' positions, um, but I would tell ya they're at the top of my .... the
top of my list, um, in terms of. ... there's a lot of areas where new staff could be.....could
be utilized and .... and I .... Parks would be one of the top few, uh, especially as we bring
on Riverfront Crossings.
Mims/ To follow up with that real quickly, do .... do we contract out the mowing of our parks or
does our staff do it?
Fruin/ No, we do have some contract mowing, and I think I allude to this in the transmittal letter,
uh, potentially, but we are increasing the amount of contract .... uh, contracted mowing,
uh, or recommending that to you, but we tend not to contract out the .... the parks. There's
a lot of, um, right-of-way easements, uh, in neighborhoods, uh, kind of just goofy parcels
that we mow, and it's been ..... it takes us a lot of time, by the time you get a truck out
there, you drop your.....your mower off if you mow it, um, and you move on to the next
one, there's just some really inefficient areas in the community for us to mow. That's
where we're tryin' to push some of the contracted mowing to, to free up our .... our staff
for the care and maintenance of. ... of the parks, cause what we're hopin for is that they're
not just mowin' the parks, but they're also keeping their eyes open for other things,
whether it's vandalism or .... a shingle that may be coming off a shelter or somethin' like
that.
Information Packet Discussion [December 21, December 281:
Throgmorton/ All right, can we move onto the Information Packets? December 21.
Taylor/ IP2, um, your, um, report on the, uh, NLC Summit, I found that very interesting and, uh,
first of all if the details could be worked out, you'd mentioned, um .... possibly meeting
with the .... jointly with the Ames City Council, and I thought that would probably be a
wonderful idea. It's another university community and, uh, said something about
meeting half way, so I think that would be a great idea. Um, and along with that it was
compelling to see the number of cities that are seeing some of the same roadblocks
that .... that we recently encountered with our, um, state legislatures and it kind of put a
word to it for me, uh, was the preemption, uh, to nullify or, uh, a municipal ordinance or
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authority, and, uh, Iowa City's long been known as a community that, uh, stands together
and works hard, uh, to, uh.... uh, stand for what we believe in and .... and seek
alternatives, uh, to work .... work for everyone. So I think, uh.... uh, that's good .... good
thing for us, uh, we won't just stand by and, uh, let them nullify things and, uh, the
article stated that the key is the active communication between state legislatures and city
officials, uh, to minimize any negative effects, and uh, that kind of goes along with Item
9 in our .... our packet, with our legislative priorities and the hiring of our, um, Carney
Appleby firm, uh, to lobby for us. Uh, Geoff, um, and Simon, whoever else was
lobbying last year as best you could, uh, thank you for those efforts. We just kind of hit a
lot of hard times there, but I think the lobbyist is going to be one of our best investments
that we have in our budget.
Throgmorton/ Well, uh, thanks for bringin' up that topic, Pauline. Uh, preemption was clearly a
major topic of conf.... uh, conversation at the NLC City Summit and that's why I wanted
to put that short report together for you, and include that report from the National League
of Cities. It's a major issue for cities all over the country.
Botchway/ I think we do, kind of to Pauline's point, we need to restructure how
we're.... communicating in the conversation because it's, to me it's most counter -intuitive
to the policies of many of these state, you know, legislatures and how they're reacting
around local control, I mean this is to me like, you know, law school government 101 as
far as, you know, the fact that many of the .... the politics around it is that there's.... taking
away from the federal government to give more local control at the city level, and it
seems like we're .... we're losing control. It makes absolutely no sense to me.
Throgmorton/ There's a rationale behind it, but (both talking) kinda dig into the political stuff.
So could I ask, uh, Pauline made a ...... a comment about the invitation from the Ames'
Councilman Tim Garten for us to meet halfway, some of us at least, to .... to meet halfway
with some Ames' council members. Uh, he had some other suggestion as well, I don't
remember what it was. So, but I'm wondering if. ... if y'all have interest in maybe having
a delegation of our Council meeting with the delegation of theirs, either in Ames or here
or halfway, and I .... I can follow up on that.
Mims/ I'd be interested!
Throgmorton/ I see a lot of nodding heads. Okay. I'll follow up on that. Okay, any .... any other,
uh, agenda items, uh, out of the November 21 packet?
Botchway/ Just IP3, excited about the work that our .... our Waste Minimization department and
other departments have been doing as far as diverting, you know, 15,000 tons. I eat a lot,
but that's a lot more, so .... great work and keep it up! Just like the update!
Thomas/ Same on ..... same on IP6, all the volunteer work that's gone into the, um, gardening in
the downtown area. Really appreciate that.
Throgmorton/ Okay. Moving on to December 28.
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Taylor/ IP6, you had mentioned the promotion of Tracy. Uh, congratulations again, uh, I of
course worked with her on the Invest Health project, uh, quite a lot and she's provided a
lot of direction and leadership for that, and .... and we've accomplished a lot and .... and
I'm certain that she will do the same for the NDS department so congratulations again!
Throgmorton/ Absolutely!
Botchway/ IPS, uh, so you talked about some of the concerns and no further changes. So I....
sounded like we offered a couple options to residents, um, there isn't any further changes
that we need to make to the .... the ordinance that we passed, um, or the resolution that we
passed, but what were the residents' responses? Was it kind like, you know, thank you
for providing these options or was it still upset?
Monroe/ I believe they're still working on solutions with the residents. So MPO is created a .... a
dialogue and so they're still working with them. I believe that the people who had come
for public comment were interested in other options, whether it's a stop sign or .... some
other, uh, continued police presence, but we .... we did have some patrolling out in that
area and, urn ..... monitoring device to see what the speeds were, so.....we'll see what
happens from here, what the residents want to do.
Thomas/ Yeah I was.....I just was really impressed with, uh, those .... those two individuals, those
two men who came, I mean ...... uh, they.....they get it (laughs) you know, they get the
question of neighborhood traffic safety, uh, and they intuitively gravitated
toward.... toward the solution (laughs) which is, you know, trying to narrow the, uh, the
effective width of the road, um, you know unfortunately in this case the road is only 24 -
feet wide, uh, so you end up with a relatively narrow opening if there are two opposing
cars. Urn .... but I do hope that we come up, again, with a resolution of this. I would be
very disappointed if .... there .... the.....the neighbors walk away not feeling that their
concerns are being addressed. And, um.....you know, it is another .... I looked, you know,
for contextual purposes and I understand this is a conversation staff will be having with
the neighborhood, but, uh, on Davenport, from Ga ... uh, Governor to where it terminates
at, uh, the park there, that's about half a mile, and there are no stop signs along that
stretch. Um, Reno mini -park is directly north of the intersection of Davenport and Reno.
Um, so, you know, they .... they came and mentioned at our Council meeting the idea of a
stop sign there (laughs) and um, you know, I think .... and again, I know that staff.... that's
not really part of the bag of. ... of solutions that typically is ... is included in a traffic
calming program, but if their concern is the speed at the intersection, uh, short of a traffic
circle, you know, that is .... that would be the.....the, um, the way to address it. Um, the...
the other thing that I would just mention is on a narrow street, it is possible to park on
both sides of the street if you do kind of a .... a checkerboard effect. In other words, you
know, the cars aren't directly opposite one another, but you stagger the parking. Um,
that, you know, that would work with a 24 -foot wide roadway. So that you always .... you
always maintain sufficient clearance there but you're not creating a straight shot with
parking only on one side. So the ... the drive lane, in effect, weaves between the parking
bays. The challenge with that is is there enough street parking ...... on .... on Davenport
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to .... to work with that strategy. Uh.... cause unfortunately this is what concerns me going
into the traffic calming program. There isn't that much, uh, volume, we know that. And
....the speeds may not meet our criteria, which are 30 miles -per -hour. So I'm .... I'm
concerned that we're gonna end up with a situation where staff would say well you just
don't meet our criteria on traffic calming, and uh..... we'd end up with no action.
Botchway/ IP ..... 7.
Throgmorton/ Which one is this?
Botchway/ This is the budget. Just ... it's a budget agenda item but talked to Jim Pryor but I
wanted to introduce this to Council, I have an idea. And I need your support. Um, so we
talked about Pryor, and I've been kind of rackin' my brain, I think I brought up to Geoff
that we should do like a Facebook Live event around the budget discussion and some
other things, but ultimately, um, one, I thought that was kind of lame, but then two, um,
in thinking about how we can bring people in to at least initially hear the first part of our
budget conversation. I tentatively named it, um, Breakfast.... Breakfast on the Budget,
the First Annual Breakfast on the Budget event. So people would come at 7:30 and, you
know, I'd be willing to be here at 7:30, um, mingle with City Council Members, talk
about their respective views on the budget, and ultimately get an opportunity to, you
know, be informed about, um, just that first portion of the budget, and I kinda talked
to .... kind of talked about it at KXIC actually, what is it, last week I think. Yeah, last
week, um, and there's just a wealth of information just within that first summary packet
that I think people need to hear, and I think that there'll be an introduction at least to
getting people engaged. I'm hopeful that, you know, as soon as we can send
communication out, I can Tweet it out and get some interested folks and .... maybe kind of
pull some folks in, but.....I think, Rockne, you had br.... brought this point up before in a
different way, but I just thought there'd be something that we could do, low-cost, to get
people in here, at least for that first part, no more than an hour, I mean weather obviously
pending. So.....what are thoughts?
Mims/ Worth a try. Yeah.
Throgmorton/ (several talking) support.
Cole/ ....it's a great idea, Kingsley.
Throgmorton/ So the Facebook Live thing, why not do that?
Botchway/ Oh I ... I just was thinkin' if I was like up at 8:00 or .... on a Saturday, whatever,
watchin' Facebook Live.
Throgmorton/ Probably not.
Botchway/ Yeah (laughter and several talking)
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Fruin/ We record the, uh, presentation, uh, we don't record the whole Saturday session, but the
first, uh, basically the City Manager's office presentation we record for rebroadcast. We
can put that out. I think the .... the Facebook Live idea that .... that Kingsley and I were
talking about, you know at some point we could, um, I wouldn't necessarily focus that on
a actual meeting, but if a Council representative or Dennis or myself or somebody wanted
to .... to kind of do a live Q&A on .... on social media, just about the budget, let people
type in questions and we'll type back for an hour or whatever, we could do somethin' like
that. That might be a little more, um, engaging and of. ... and of interest, um, I
wouldn't .... I wouldn't think we'd need to Facebook Live the Saturday session.
Throgmorton/ (several talking) I think we should explore its use, and maybe not this Saturday
but just in general. So we might be thinkin' about (both talking)
Fruin/ ....yeah.
Taylor/ ....interactive (both talking)
Fruin/ ....used that, uh, on composting and a few other topics recently, uh, and it's worked out,
uh, worked out pretty well for us. So we could explore its use with the budget.
Throgmorton/ Okay, so the breakfast is gonna start when?
Botchway/ 7:30.
Throgmorton/ 7:30 and the work session's gonna start at 8:00, is that right? (several responding)
So there'll be coffee, there'll be whatever, some various (both talking)
Fruin/ We'll handle the food selection. We'll keep Kingsley out of that (laughter and several
talking)
Throgmorton/ Okay! Good deal. Great idea.
Taylor/ Good idea!
Throgmorton/ Yeah. All right, anything else on the Information Packet? Okay. Council
updates. I think maybe we haven't been very busy over the last two weeks, but does
anybody have any Council update about boards, commissions, committees that they're
on? All right, since no one has any updates about that I think we're done with our work
session. We'll reconvene at 7:00 with the formal meeting.
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