HomeMy WebLinkAbout2018-04-17 Transcription Page 1
ITEM 2. Appeal of Historic Preservation Commission Decision—Deciding the appeal
to the City Council of the decision of the Historic Preservation Commission
denying a Certificate of Appropriateness to apply aluminum siding at 318 N.
Gilbert Street in the Northside Historic District
a) Public Hearing
Throgmorton: We have to follow specific procedures in this, which Eleanor has laid out for us,
uh, which is part of the formal meeting agenda packet. We'll do our best to
follow those procedures, and Eleanor, when we (mumbled) if we slide off course
(laughs) in terms of following those procedures, please alert us. Thank you. So I
want to make a suggestion to the Council to see if you agree. Uh,the suggestion
is that we allocate not more than 30 minutes, per party, to present their material,
whatever it is they want to tell us, and then allocate ourselves another 30 minutes
to discuss what we think we need to do. Uh, is that agreeable with the parties?
And is it agreeable with Council? Yeah, okay, so could somebody help time this
(both talking)
Dilkes: We should just reflect that the parties indicated that (both talking) agreement with
that.
Throgmorton: Right, thank you! Uh, so can somebody help me keep track of this? All right,
good deal. Thank you. So, I think we should begin with Ginalie Swaim, right,
with the Historic Preservation Commission. Hi, Ginalie!
Swaim: Hello, everyone! (noise on mic, unable to hear speaker) outside today. It's
actually nice and sunny! (laughter) I'm Ginalie Swaim, the Chair of the Historic
Preservation Commission. Um, thank you all for, um, taking this time to, um,
listen to this appeal. Um, and I actually am going to defer for the first part to
Jessica Bristow, who is the Historic Preservation Planner for the com....for the
City. Urn, she's gonna walk you through,uh.....what has happened, from the
initial contact with her and then I will pick up when, um, it came to the full
Historic Preservation Commission. Thank you.
Throgmorton: Okay. Hi, Jessica.
Bristow: Hi! Jessica Bristow, Historic Preservation Planner and staff member for the
Commission. Uh, this project first came to, uh, staff, myself, um....
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regular formal meeting of April 17,2018.
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Throgmorton: Pardon me, Jessica. Did I formally open the public hearing? (several talking in
background) Yeah, so....I'm gonna open the public hearing. (bangs gavel) And
acknowledge that Ginalie Swaim spoke briefly, uh, right prior to this, but it
should be accounted as part of the public hearing. Thank you.
Bristow: Urn.....so as I began, um, the project first came to staff when a,uh,rental
inspector told staff that they would be receiving a call about 318 N. Gilbert
because it needed painting, and this was about mid-September in 2017. Later
staff found out that it had been cited for needing painting back in November of
2016. Uh, the deadline for the work had passed when the rental inspector told us
about it. On September 26th, staff had voicemails from both the owner and a
siding salesperson, urn, and staff called the owner, discussing the process for
review, including, uh, visiting the property and,uh, putting in an application for
historic review. Um, the owner had mentioned vinyl replacement siding and, um,
and also the fact that there was a siding salesperson. Urn, I talked to them about
the fact that because it's in a historic district, painting any existing, uh,potentially
original siding would be the preferred thing, and uh, the owner did discuss, uh, the
difficulty in finding a painter who would be able to work with the paint on the
house because it was, urn, potentially had lead in it, and urn, staff, myself,
followed up with an email that included both the application for historic review
and a list of at least 10 paint contractors who can and will work with lead paint.
On, uh, September 27, the next day, I talked to the siding salesperson. I reiterated
the process that we need to review the property on-site and look at what the, uh,
condition of the siding is; that, uh, application for review needed to be put in; urn,
basically talking to them about the fact that we needed to do a formal review and
that all of our approvals are written approvals. Uh, I was given the impression,
urn, that the existing siding may be Masonite, which is a replacement siding that's
used....fairly frequently and deteriorates rather quickly when compared to
something like cedar or redwood, typical, uh(mumbled) siding. Because of the
fact that that could be the case, we did discuss what appropriate replacement
materials could be possible. Again, reiterating the fact that we needed to review
the siding, uh,before approval could be given. At that time when we discussed
any appropriate materials, we talked about the fact that, uh, it would be a smooth
siding that would be approvable, not something with fake wood grain that vinyl
typically has. So we discussed the idea of aluminum siding. Again, no formal
approval was given, no application for review had been submitted at this time.
Um,we did discuss this as....what would be appropriate if replacement was
warranted. Urn, because it was listed as non-historic, urn, a smooth, aluminum
siding could be considered and I also told them that I would visit that day. This
is, uh, 318 Gilbert Street on September 27th. Urn, can you maybe dim the lights?
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And this is what we saw. There was quite a bit of brush along the alley. There's
an alley on the right side of the property there. Urn, as you can see this is the
south side of the house, also facing the alley, and in that, uh,bump-out part with
the gable, there's peeling paint. When I look at this on-site, I see peeling paint. I
see some of the wood showing. It was very evident that there was wood grain,
which means it's not Masonite. It was then either cedar or redwood, and because
the wood grain is kind of gray, it was obvious that it needed to be prepped
properly before painting. All of the paint would need to be stripped off. The
grain is needed to be sanded off. The correct moisture content needed to be
checked. It needed to be primed with an oil-based primer, and then painted, and
um, after I visited the house on September 27th, this is just a back view of the
house at that time so that you can see it. I then turned around and immediately
emailed the owner, since they were the responsible party, and told them that the
siding was in good condition and should be painted. Confirmed that the painters
on the list would be able to deal with the lead paint, and also talked to them about
the appropriate preparation and techniques for painting so that when they talk to
painting contractors, they could be informed about the process. Um, I also talked
to them about the fact that the stone in the, uh, front entry should not be painted
over. It would need to be, uh, remain, uh, uncovered and, urn.....let's see, oh, and
then I said that, uh, siding replacement was not warranted because of the
relatively good condition of the siding. The only place where I really found any
rot or anything was, urn, well I don't know if this map works....00ps! Um, up
near the gutter on that...you can see just a little bit of deterioration, and that was
about all I saw for deterioration on this house, and that would be very typical and
that's a small piece of wood that could be replaced. On September 28th then I also
talked to the siding salesperson and told them the same thing that I told the owner
and the salesperson told me that the siding had been ordered. I told them that no
approval had been given for the project, and in fact no application had been
submitted seeking approval, and I told them that the siding was in good condition,
so it should just be painted. Urn, I received several phone calls,um, including a
phone call on October 3rd•again with the siding salesperson that was much like
before. Again telling them that the siding was in good condition and needed to be
painted and replacement was not warranted. On October 12th, there was an email
from the siding salesperson to her supervisors copying, uh, myself and Bob
Miklo, who she had also talked to in the interim, and basically it was explaining
why she had lost a siding sale, and it also explained that the owner had originally
contracted for vinyl siding back on September 1St, long before they had ever
talked to any of us. Um, I responded basically just to clarify a few, uh,points in
the email that I thought were incorrect. On October 20th, finally an application for
siding replacement was submitted. I replied to them that since the, uh, I could not
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recommend replacement because the siding was in good condition, that we would
then, urn, put this before the Commission for a review. Uh,basically all
properties in a historic district need to be reviewed when it comes down to siding.
Um.....there's......with this property.....here's a few more photos,uh, right before
the meeting,uh, I went back and on November 2'11 took another photo, and it
showed that somebody had tried to go over the....the peeling paint area on that
bump-out and....and put basically a....a thin coat. It was probably either a primer
or a paint coat over it, so that at least the peeling paint didn't show. That was not
the proper technique, so that would not last, but, uh, there was an attempt to....to,
uh, remediate the problem a little bit. Urn, this property, as you can see from the
star, is in the very bottom part of the Northside Historic District. At the time that
the district was created and that this property was surveyed, it was considered
non-historic. For historic preservation,historic is at least 50-years-old. Once a
property reaches that 50-year threshold, it can be considered historic. For this
district,we have,uh, a.....a group of houses that are basically date from about
1860 to, uh, the 1930s as far as the properties that contribute to the district, that all
go towards making the district what it is. When we look at whether a property is
historic or not, um, once it's 50-years-old, then we also determine is it
contributing to the district, or is it not contributing to the district? If it was built
outside of this regular period of design, it would be considered non-contributing.
When I wrote the staff report to the Commission about this property, I also
discussed that, because....this property, while it was non-historic in the district,
could be considered historic now. We don't know if it would be considered
contributing or non-contributing. That's something that would need to happen
when the whole district was evaluated. It is historic. That is kind of the point, but
when we presented it to the Commission, we presented it as it was non-historic.
A non-historic property in a historic district can have a specific exception granted
towards it. What happens in that case is the Commission reviews it to see if it has
any historic character that could be considered worthy of preservation. While I
was looking at this property, I see a house that hits all....this is taken just the other
day, so all of the brush has been removed. All the paint has been touched up. It's
still not a....a good finish paint job with proper prepping, but it....it looks all
white and cleaned up right now. Urn, this house meets all of the key.....
characteristics that would.....show it to us as a mid-century modem ranch house.
It has a broad, low one-story shape. It has a low pitched roof without any
dormers. It has the low, or the....the large picture window in the stone area. The,
it's asymmetrical. Um, meaning it's not, uh, balanced and equal on both sides.
It's built low to the ground. The front entry is off-centered and sheltered under
that main roof, and recessed into the L. That's one of the specific ranch types,
and the windows, you can't really seem `em in this picture, but it has a top and
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bottom sash, and they've divided horizontally,just once in each sash, and that's
also very typical of a ranch house, and it also has shutters only on the front.
When I look at this house, it has all of its original, urn....storm windows,
windows, siding..... nothing seems to have been changed on this house. So it had
all of the historic characteristics of a ranch house. That is what the Commission
then was charged with reviewing. Does it have any of these characteristics that
make it worthy of preservation, and at that point they had determined that it did
and, urn,that's where Ginalie comes in!
Swaim: Thank you. So, urn, the....Commission, uh, reviewed this application November
9th at its regular monthly meeting. Uh, the staff presented the report and showed
exterior photos of the property and all this is in your packet. The staff report
addressed five pertinent issues—the age and architectural style of the house, every
report always begins with that;its historic or non-historic status in the district,
likewise its contributing or non-contributing status; when exceptions to guidelines
are allowed or disallowed; and the condition of the existing siding. Note, siding
here means the cladding of the housing. It's not a word we often think of in, uh,
earlier houses but in this case the siding is, uh, probably redwood or, urn.....cedar,
um, what many of our older houses are of course. Uh.....and siding is one of the
defining characteristics of a historic district and therefore protected by the
guidelines. So in brief,the staffs detailed descriptions and photos from the site
visit showed this 1958 house to be an intact representation of a typical mid-
century modern ranch style. Though the house is modest, it retains its original
form, details, and materials. When the neighborhood survey was completed in
1998, this 1958 house was classified as non-historic because it was not yet 50
years old, the threshold. Note, as Jessica said, the house has since passed that
threshold and can now be considered historic. I should also note there's growing
interest in mid-century modern ranch style houses, especially among the youngest
population of home seekers. In fact, last year the Parade of Homes by Friends of
Historic Preservation featured mid-century homes. In other words, what was not
yet thought of as significant in 1998 is now drawing great interest and....
protection. The house, furthermore, is considered non-contributing because the
year it was built, 1958, li....lies outside the period of significance for the district.
It's from a different era. Nevertheless, non-contributing and non-historic
properties are not exempt from pres....preservation guidelines. Applications for
siding replacement in historic district require a permit and review. Exceptions
can exist for non-historic houses. Applications for exceptions are reviewed on a
case-by-case basis. The staff report and photos show that the original cedar or
redwood lap siding was in good condition, except some minimal
dir...deterioration around the gutters, where rot is often expected. They show...it
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showed that the wood siding only needed proper preparation and a new paint job.
The Commission carefully analyzed the staff's findings, including the
photographic evidence, asked questions of the applicant and staff; and then
adhered to the guidelines. A, the siding is not deteriorated beyond repair.
Therefore,by the guidelines, there are no grounds for replacing it. B, the house is
worthy of preservation as a good example of mid-century modern ranch, and is
considered historic. It is over 50 years. Therefore, no exception should be
allowed. The Commission voted unanimously to deny the application. I believe
the record shows that the Commission followed the guidelines and did not act in
an arbitrary or capricious manner. Thank you.
Throgmorton: Y'all are finished right now, right? Okay. I....would be appropriate for us to ask
questions, I believe, of....of, uh, the presenters, uh, Ginalie and Jessica. You're
supposed to follow certain guidelines. I heard Ginalie say right there at the end
that you did follow the guidelines,uh, published in the Iowa His...Iowa City
Historic Preservation Handbook, which are based on Secretary of Interior's, uh,
standards for rehabilitation.
Swaim: Yes (both talking)
Throgmorton: ....other things. Right? Okay. And....yeah, all right. So would anybody on the
Com...uh, on Council like to ask Jessica or Ginalie any questions?
Thomas: There....there were coup....both of you said that the.....the structure can be
considered historic. Does that mean that it has historic status? Is
that...(mumbled)
Bristow: There has been, uh,there's been no official review of this district to determine if
all of the non-historic properties in the district are now historic. When we look at
it individually, we would consider that, yes, it's historic because it...it is 50-years-
old. Technically we would also look at the fact that it actually represents a known
architectural style in that as well. It is assumed that at some point when the
Commission is not obligated with other concerns that they will actually go
through each of the districts and look at the non-contributing and non-historic
properties and review them to see if they still are non-historic or non-contributing,
and at that point this house would definitely become historic, and then it would be
reviewed whether or not it would be contributing or non-contributing. And that
would depend on whether or not the, uh, post-war infill was considered a
contributing part of the district, which in this instance it probably could be. It is
something that was talked about in the original, uh,review of the district, that
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there was this kind of infill that was happening. So it could become contributing
even to the district, but currently we would look at this house individually as,urn,
historic.
Throgmorton: Just to pin down a couple facts, uh, to get `em on the record. Do I understand
correctly....huh? (several talking)
Bristow: I just pushed the button here and it rose a little bit. (laughs) (several talking and
laughing)
Throgmorton: Do I understand correctly that the Department of Interior's guidelines and the
City's Historic Preservation Manual basically reject covering original siding with
"synthetic siding," and that...uh, they....those, the manual and the guidelines
define aluminum as a synthetic?
Bristow: Yeah, it...it was something that came up in our....our Commission meeting that
aluminum is on the periodic table, so how could it be synthetic, but both the
Secretary of the Interior and our guidelines consider asbestos, aluminum, vinyl,
or, um, asphalt, fake brick looking siding as synthetic siding, and it is, um,
recommended in our guideli.....guidelines to actually remove that type of siding
to any historic property and not apply it because while it may last longer than a
wood siding, it will deteriorate. It may need replacing, and it also tends to trap
moisture, and it can lead to the deterioration of any historic siding that's
underneath. Also applying it can mean that you need to cut back trim and other
things so that the historic material can be damaged as well when it's applied.
Taylor: And again,these guidelines apply whether it's contributing or non-contributing?
Is that true?
Bristow: Correct. The guidelines apply to every property in a district or a local landmark.
It's just that there are some exceptions that are available for properties that are
non-contributing or non-historic, and that's why we talked about the idea of....of,
urn, the possibility of putting some, uh, aluminum siding on this house because
there is.....an exception for non-historic properties in a historic district. There is
not an exception for that for non-contributing properties in a historic district. So
if this had...this property had been reviewed and determined just to be non-
contributing, that exception wouldn't apply at all either.
Throgmorton: I for one will admit that I got confused in reading the written material,uh, about,
uh, whether the structure is historic or non-historic, and does the distinction make
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a difference, and, uh, I.....I couldn't fully track, uh, the.....the written text in the,
uh,the....the denial of the application, I mean the Commission's formal denial of
the application, relative to,uh, the statement that Ginalie provided us in writing,
uh, and the, uh.....the minutes of the Commission's meeting. I'll put that weight
on myself largely, you know, but I...I'll admit that I've had....had trouble
tracking, uh, the distinction and whether the distinction makes a difference. So,
can....can you please restate as clearly and slowly as you can, precisely....what
....um, how the Commission defined this house and how that definition played
into the decision the Commission finally made.
Bristow: I admit that the guidelines sometimes are, uh, confusing,because they involve,
uh, legal language and....and that's why I'm here to help people, uh, wade
through, um, what they mean. When the Commission was determining, uh,
whether or not to pro....approve the siding, um, they talked about the house and
whether it not...whether or not it had any....redeeming historical character that
was worthy of preservation. Whether or not the house is historic, it is whether or
not it has some characteristic to be preserved that was determined by the
Commission. When it is found that while it might be modest, it is....very
characteristic of a mid-century ranch house. They determined that that meant that
it then was worthy of preservation and denied the application of siding. The
question of whether or not it is historic or non-historic....is only about whether or
not they can apply the exception at all. Since we discussed the exception, and the
exception is only for non-historic properties, we went with the fact that on the
map and in the guidelines, it is listed as non-historic. So we applied the
exception. We didn't go through the formal process of deciding that it is historic,
because then the exception wouldn't have been allowed at all.
Thomas: Right. That....that was my concern and question, was it....before I had read the
minutes of the meetings, that it seemed straightaway there was a trigger here in
that it had passed the 50-year threshold and therefore was historic, as I understood
it, and historic structures in a historic district are not, do not qualify for an
exception.
Bristow: I think that there would have been a greater concern with this process if we had
just decided, oh, it's historic so we can't do the histor....the exception at all, and
just discounted that without any formal review of its historic quality at all. Since
we did not do that, and we went ahead and allowed the exception to be discussed
and reviewed by the Commission, I think that shows that we followed the
guidelines even more closely than, uh, we would if we just looked at the house.
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Cole: So in the 50s, vinyl siding was not used at all? This is....that never can be
considered historic or....or appropriate? I think......is that a new phenomenon
(mumbled) the same thing would be with aluminum as well?
Bristow: Ur....I'm personally not really, uh, up on when vinyl siding started. I think it's
more that we look at this house and it....it's pretty apparent that it has its original
siding, and so with that in mind we want to keep that original siding. Now if it
was deteriorated so that it could be covered or replaced,then that's when we
would of looked at some kind of an aluminum siding or something that might
have been appropriate at the time of the construction of the house, but it's because
the fact that the siding itself wasn't deteriorated, we didn't want to hurt it further
by covering it with something that would deteriorate that historic siding.
Cole: So if it had been at a greater state of deterioration, you could of foreseen a
circumstances where vinyl could have been used, am I understanding that
correctly?
Bristow: I can see a circumstance where a replacement siding could have been used.
Whether or not it's vinyl or aluminum, I think it would still tend more towards
aluminum than vinyl. Cause I think....with the limited knowledge I have on vinyl
and aluminum siding, I think that aluminum was potentially more appropriate
during the 50s than vinyl. And, um, we also would tend to not approve, um, the
fake wood grain texture, and most vinyl siding tends to be that. I know that it's
possible to get vinyl siding that's smooth, um, but it's, uh, much more expensive
and much more difficult to get it. So....in this case I think that it would have
been, um....uh, an aluminum siding that would have been approved, over vinyl,
but I....I didn't review that because of the fact that....it wasn't deteriorated. It
was something that we discussed in the phone conversations with both the owner
and the siding salesperson as possibilities, but no approval was given and never is
given over the phone.
Cole: And in deciding whether something is appropriate or not, are you solely limited
by what the Department of Interior guidelines are, or how much discretion do you
have? You had talked about the case-by-case standard, urn, is that the sole
definition in terms of the Department of the Interior guidelines, in terms of what's
appropriate and what's not?
Bristow: We definitely look at them and it's when they are not clear on something, where
we do further research. Because of the fact that mid-century modern is something
that's just starting to become, uh,National Register, uh, listing eligible and really,
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urn, considered historic, it's something that we would do research on, and we do a
lot of research on every property, even when the guidelines and the Secretary of
the Interiors are clear on things, we do research just to make sure that we get
things right, because we....when we're talking about built structures that could
last for hundreds of years, we don't wanna make mistakes. So we would do
research for that.
Swaim: I'd like to just add one point. One of the major tenets of preservation, um, is that,
urn, one repairs rather than replaces. So, uh, repair of original materials is always
the preferred method, urn, and you'll see that in the guidelines, uh, Secretary of
Interior's, as well as our own. Um, something has to be very, very deteriorated, in
some cases irreparable before we would allow some kind of replacement.
Throgmorton: I have a feeling we're, uh, pretty much at the 30-minute mark. Uh, but I'd like to
ask, uh, one more question please. Which....this is gonna go over territory
already tried, but I'm reading the text of the denial of a....of a Certificate of
Appropriateness. The part that begins, 'The exception exists for non....non-
historic properties, in historic districts, where the structure may be evaluated on a
case-by-case basis,' do you see where I am in the text?
Swaim: Uh huh.
Throgmorton: Okay. And then I'm gonna skip the next few lines, but.....uh, and then it says, as
you've noted, uh, 'At the time the original survey, the property was classified as
non-historic because it wasn't 50-years-old,' and so on. But then the text says,
'Now the house would be considered non-contributing to the district,but would
be considered historic.' Because it's more than 50-years-old. And this is all part
of, uh, the, uh, the.....this is part of the rationale for denying.the exception, right?
So now the hist....the house would be considered non-contributing to the district,
but would be considered historic because it's more than 50-years-old, and then,
`As....as a representative of mid-ce....mid-century modern homes, the property is
intact and worthy of preservation. The existing materials should be maintained.'
So....I'm havin' trouble following that rationale. I don't know if the rest of you
are, and....and we....we need to hear from the other folks before we say anything
explicit about this, but.....I'm not sure how we get from the exception exists for
non-historic properties, and then we get to now the house would be considered
non-contributing but would be considered historic. So.....just kind of leave it
there. Yeah.
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Bristow: Well and I'd like to point out that the actual reason for the de....we discussed the
historic and non-historic in the denial because it exists as a fact and somethin' that
we discussed for the property,but the actual reason for the denial is the line that
follows that, that says, 'As a representative of mid-century modem homes, the
property is intact and worthy of preservation.' That is the key line that's really
the reason why the exception was denied. It is showing that.....whether it's
historic or not, we used the non-historic exception and it was found that as a
representative of mid-century modern homes, it fits the definition and all the
characteristics of a ranch home, and because it is intact, it's worthy of
preservation and therefore the application is denied. So it's.....it's really actually
that key line after that that is the....the.....the real crux of the reason why the
application is denied and what fits the exception. The rest is included because it
was discussed so much at length during the....the review in here and every....
everywhere else, but whether or not it's historic, it's this fact that is the reason for
the denial.
Throgmorton: Okay. Thank you. (several talking in background)
Taylor: So when you say intact and worthy of preservation, you're referring as you
mentioned earlier to the materials, not necessarily the building itself and staying
in that...on that lot, but preserving the materials,the original materials, as you've
said seemed to be in...in good condition. Is that....that's what you're referring to
when you say preservation (both talking)
Bristow: Yeah, I would think actually both, I mean, we wouldn't want to take it down and
remove it either,but yeah,preserving the materials. Therefore not covering it
with siding that could lead to rot and the destruction of the historic materials.
Taylor: Thank you.
Bristow: Or original materials, if you'd rather.
Throgmorton: Okay. Thank you. I....I think we should probably shift to the applicant for the,
uh, an exception. The owner of the property, yeah. Hi, good evening!
Leupold: Good evening.
Throgmorton: Please state your name and we'll go from there!
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Leupold: Happily! I'm Bill Leupold from 13515 253rd Avenue, Spirit Lake, Iowa. I bring
you greetings from the land of ice and snow (laughter) Twelve inches Saturday
and (several talking) another six or seven coming today and tomorrow. (several
talking) Uh, I heard a lot of could, may, it might rot, we'd like to keep it original,
uh, I was happy to hear at this hearing that, uh, aluminum is considered an
appropriate covering. Aluminum siding was invented or used since 1948. So it
would be quite appropriate to put on this building. Now Jessica's narrative was
very good, but she did miss one step, and I'll let my son explain that. Um....
you've also heard that this house may contain lead paint. Now I....in thinking of
covering this with aluminum, that paint would be contained. It would be better
for the environment. It would keep the house looking historically correct! Plus, it
would limit the amount of upkeep that the house would need. I'll admit, that's
part of my idea for doing this. Uh, we were fully....uh, going to have it painted
by painters. My son will explain that. We have checked into, uh, getting
someone who might scrape the paint legally,but we still feel that the aluminum
siding would keep this in its historic context. Now at the hearing,the only, uh,
thing that was said about aluminum siding was A, it would still need upkeep, and
B, it might get wasps behind it. I didn't quite feel that the Board really considered
that.....and earlier when we called, we talked to Mr. Mikla? Is that the name
(several talking in background) Mikla? About coming before the Board and we
were told, well, that probably wouldn't do any good. So if it....it was almost like
there was a prior day on this. That the decision was already made. Questions
were not fully asked. Or explanations asked for. I still think aluminum siding
would be good for this. It would keep it in its historic context. Jared!
Throgmorton: Good evening, Jared. Would you please sa....state your name please?
Leupold: Absolutely! My name's Jared Leupold. I'm the current resident at 318 N. Gilbert
Street. Um, so wanna go back to how this whole process started, and actually
why we're even here probably. So going....well.....maybe even further back. So
looked at getting the house painted. Contacted two or three painters, to ask 'em,
hey, what's the....what can we do, what are we lookin' at. Well, we're not gonna
really touch it cause it's got, probably it's got lead paint (coughing, difficult to
hear speaker) so you need to contact this person. Even folks that normally do lead
paint, they didn't want to touch it. Not quite sure why. I don't know if it was a
money thing or the project was too small. Um, we've in fact since contacted
someone that could do it, for the lead, and they actually recommended not to do it.
Um, but that's neither here nor there. So then the next part, uh, talked to my
folks. Like, well, let's take a look at maybe a siding on it then instead. Met with,
uh, salesperson from Acri, and we talked about two different things. We're
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looking at mason and possibly vinyl on there. Uh, leave the brick exposed.
Actually the shutter windows would stay the same. Just do a built-out on it. So
how we got here in the first place is that....uh, played phone tag with Jessica back
and forth, um, and then finally she left a message one day, stating that the home
would be okay to have siding on it. I didn't need to worry about anything. So
that's the message I got. Thought my due diligence was already done. Got the
approval by phone. And so I went ahead and spoke to this sales agent and got the
siding set up to get done. (mumbled) after that...that was my part into it, and then
the rest of it was (unable to hear, away from mic)
Leupold: All right, I'm up.
Throgmorton: Could you state your name please?
Leupold: (laughs) I'm Julia Leupold, also of Spirit Lake. And, um.....thank you so much
for allowing us to come today. I know you all have busy schedules and we
appreciate this opportunity to talk to you. And first thing I'd like to do, I think, is
to ask how many of you, did you read the minutes from the November 9th
meeting?
Throgmorton: I (mumbled) It was in the packet.
Leupold: Okay. Well I....I appreciate,they were long (laughs) and arduous, as much as the
speeches that have been done today! But, this is what I have to say I guess. Um,
as you heard Jared say, he contacted different painters to paint the house with no
success. Jessica sent me a list of painters, that's true, but I got a little
discouraged. One address was a, where a felony arrest had taken place. So I was
really....a little reluctant to engage that person. Um, another company is retired,
and I think no longer painting. One was from Anamosa. One was from Tipton.
Um..... another one I was reading their web site and they sounded really good.
They say, oh, first thing we do is power wash that house. Oh, the handbook says
you cannot do that. So I tried to pursue quite a few of those names that she gave
me, but it didn't seem like the thing to do and at that point I said....well, let's put
siding on this house. Again, trying to, uh, relieve the painting issue.....for a long-
term solution. Now, it's been my assumption....that as an employee of City Hall
and City government, Jessica Bristow, you have hired as your preservation
planner, your expert, uh, she has several degrees in art and architecture and so
forth....and you know it seemed obvious why I took her at her word. You know,
Jared took her at her word....when he was told, 'Go ahead, you can do anything,'
and he proceeded to order siding. Um....you know, she....she represents you as a
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historical commission, and my goodness, I....have.....have all of you read the
107-plus page handbook? (laughs) You know, it is pretty confusing. It's
contradictory. You can go to one page, it says one thing. On the next it says
something else. It truly does (laughs) It's very confusing. Urn, but the historical
district that our home is in, as Jessica said, covers 1850 to 1930. And so those
guidelines that are set out for that say paint. Well of course it says paint! Paint
was the only option for many, many years. But as my husband pointed out,
aluminum siding....was in use by that time, and we are certainly not changing the
structure. I love that it's a mid-50s modern house, that Jessica described. It's
wonderful! And trust me, it's wonderful inside too! But the Commission only
deals with the exterior. The outside. So in 3.2 of the handbook, it specifically
states that new technology, materials, and practices, which contribute to the
preservation....of a building in this case, this home, would be appropriate. Now,
you....you've heard what we've said and kind of getting down to the crux of it.
In the affiday...from the City Attorney, it says that the only means that we have....
is to prove that Jessica's actions were arbitrary and capricious. Ladies and
gentlemen, I believe they were. Capricious also says in our handout given....I can
find it (laughs) um.....that.....protocol will be done, for you lawyers that are here.
It says in judges of the world, if they didn't follow correct procedure, they can be
charged with arbitrary and capricious, and that's what Jessica did! She told Jared
he could put on siding. Then she told myself and our siding representative, sure!
You can put aluminum siding on, if it meets these guidelines. If it fits the same
profile of wood that is on there. If it has no wood grain. I find that kind of ironic.
(laughs) Wood is original but we mustn't make it look like wood. Don't cover up
the stone work. I wouldn't dream of covering up that stone work! It's wonderful!
And so our,uh, Acri Company representative hunted around and they found an
aluminum siding that would be appropriate and in keeping with 1950s style
aluminum siding. So,my point end is, Jessica did not do research. It took her till
September 260i or 7°' that she told you, finally then after she had already told
Jared, do anything, after the first of September she told myself and my
representative this aluminum is fine if it meets criteria. It was only after that that
she actually went the less than four blocks north of here.....to physically look at
that house. And she stated the same in her testimony. September 26°i and 27°'.
Now, I think that's a little bit erratic behavior for someone who is a professional
in her field. She is the expert. So....I think I'll leave it at that.
Throgmorton: All right, thank you.
Leupold: Any questions?
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Throgmorton: Maybe. Is there anybody else in your group that wants to speak?
Acri: Uh, Nicholas Acri. I'm a U of I grad. I own a few homes here, but I've come out
of Illinois. Uh, I'd just like to help this Board. Urn, I come from a town, Rock
Island, Illinois. We have a historic district, urn, with beautiful homes
that....1800's mansions that, uh,you know, were from railroad people or John
Deere people. Uh, that have a lot of historic significance. The time period, I....I
looked through the Iowa City winners, uh, those homes have a lot of....the....the
winners have a lot of historic significance. This home, uh, I'm pretty sure most of
everybody here agrees, nobody's comin' off the highway to view this home. You
know, this isn't, uh, a home that's....Iowa City has some homes, but this isn't one
of'em. So on the subject of conforming, non-conforming, I talked to my local,
urn, you know, as....as this is kind of a, you know, not a friendly relationship, I
talked to my local, uh, person, Rock Island, who's....lives in that district, who's
sat on the board for 30 years, and I said what is the difference between a
contributing structure and a non-contributing structure. This home is considered a
non-contributing structure. She said, okay, if it's non-contributing, you have a lot
more leeway interpreting the rules. Okay? i.e., if even on....in her home, which
is....an immaculate mansion, if she decided to build a garage in the back, uh, that
would be a non-contributing structure. She could put...she said she would put
vinyl siding on that structure. But on her home, you know, from the 1800s, no.
Absolutely not. So.....this home, um, the paint is, unfortunately they let it go too
far. Once wood gets water in it,uh, you're not gonna take the boards off, get `em
back in a kiln and get that, all that water out. You're gonna end up paintin' it and
it's gonna pop. I watched it in Rock Island. I've been in the siding industry for
30 years. Um, even the beautiful homes that are in that time period have siding
on them right now because the historic commission said, no, you need to paint
`em and people walked away from 'em. And they sat. They sat in condemned
state until they finally decided, you know what? Maybe we were....causing too
much cost, uh, for....what we're trying to accomplish, and that is we're trying to
preserve this neighborhood. And so we....they started to focus on the details, you
know, the big corbels or the architectural window treatments and things like that,
and not the siding. And what she said to me, and I....I sent her this picture of this
house, she said, uh, architecturally speaking she would like to see, uh, the same
profile, even a....a 7- or an 8-inch, that's an 8-inch, 7- or an 8-inch. She said
from the street you can't tell the difference between aluminum and vinyl. I mean
there is some stigma, um....(mumbled) I've been doin' this for 30 years. The
vinyl siding 30 years ago, uh, my dad wouldn't even let me put it on. Wouldn't
let us do it. Uh, but today's vinyl siding, you can't....from the street, you can't
tell the difference. It doesn't have a high gloss finish. It doesn't have, urn, it
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looks more like painted wood than anything. The other nice thing about it is,
because this ....for sure has lead-based paint on it, uh, and I....and I.....I've taken
siding off of houses that we did 30 years ago. You can still literally see the pencil
marks....where guys wrote down 110-inches. The pencil lead will still be there.
So it really does do a great job of encasing this, uh, and preserving it, without, uh,
a lot of cost, and a lot of danger in, uh, lead-based paint, uh,remedation cause the
Acri Company is a lead-based paint certified contractor and those costs are fairly
significant if you want to try to remove lead-based paint and deal with it because
nobody wants to see that in children's mouths. Uh, and it....it's something that
can get caught in the air and blow, and literally looking at this structure, literally
the neighbor has vinyl siding on her house. I mean literally right next door. So to
say that this one is somehow historically significant, uh, I would say the things
that I would look for is the same things that, um,my acquaintance in Rock Island
looked for, and say, hey, let's not change it from....a wide-lap siding to a low-lap
siding. I could see them requesting that. I could see them requesting, hey, let's
not....remove the stone. I could see them saying let's not alter the window size.
Let's not cut in a giant window or something like that. But nothing that we're
trying to accomplish here, with putting on a.....a wide-board siding is gonna
change the look of that house from the street. Uh, I just....and....and it's going to
be in lead-based safe practices, and it should give these folks a....a good value,
uh, moving forward! You have any other questions on the difference between
conforming and non-conforming now?
Throgmorton: No thanks. I, yeah, I think you meant non-contributing.
Acri: Non-contributing, yeah (both talking)
Throgmorton: No thanks. I....I.....(unable to hear female speaking from audience)
Leupold: If Jessica's actions were arbitrary and capricious, which is what this whole
hearing is about, as I understand it, she made the arbitrary decision that Jared
could do anything he wanted to, and so we ordered siding. Then she told me, and
I was happy to oblige the things that she wanted and comply with her wishes, so
I'm trying to meet her halfway about the aluminum siding. So that's two times
she had opinions, and then much to my shock, when she sent her staff proposal, it
said, oh, this is a historical house. It's 50-years-old and we'll only recommend
paint. Well, isn't paint a little arbitrary too? Like I said, that was all that was
available, before 1930, 40, that's what they used, but she made three different
decisions. Now you are all professionals. Do you get three tries to get the answer
when you are...working with people, clients, patients, do you get three tries? Can
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you say this and that and then, oh, by the way....that sounds pretty arbitrary and
capricious to me. Thank you.
Throgmorton: Thank you. I...I'd like to ask one quick question, uh, with the original, was the
house originally built with aluminum siding on it?
Leupold: No, it was not.
Throgmorton: Okay,thank you. Uh, are....are there other questions for the, uh, for the family?
Taylor: You've owned it for how long? How many years?
Leupold: Twenty years.
Taylor: And....and you had painted it during that time (both talking) few times?
Leupold: Yes. Yes, it's been painted.
Taylor: Okay. Thank you.
Throgmorton: Okay, uh, I....I think, uh, though I did not say this at the out-set, it seems to me it
would be fair to offer each side like, I don't know, three minutes rebuttal. Is that
a reasonable thing to do? Uh, would, uh, and before anyone generally speaks I'd
just like to note that it's.....we're not assessing whether a staff member, uh, acted
arbitrarily or capriciously. The question's whether the Commission's decision
was arbitrary or commiss....or capricious,the Commission's decision. Ginalie?
Swaim: That took care of one of my points, for my three minutes. Yes, it's....it's the
Commission. Hope that my run-through of our decision-making process showed
that we were not capricious or arbitrary. Um,the....the denial of Certificate of
Appropriateness,uh, the first paragraph that's indented says the....it's not, the
application was not approved due to the following reason: it's not deteriorated
beyond repair. We looked that....at that and found that was true. That is always
one of the first qualifications. Um.....I own a Victorian two-story. Had lead paint
on it. Found a painter who took the lead paint off about 10 years ago. He has
won several awards for....uh, painting Victorians. It happens. They do it. It
doesn't seem to be a problem for the painting profession in this town or outlying
towns. I have to, even though Jessica is not being judged here as capricious or
arbitrary, I cannot, um, I cannot listen to her being impugned in this way. I have
known her for a couple of years,have seen her as extremely thorough, extremely
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attentive(laughs) and uh, considerate. Works extremely hard to inform herself of
every possible detail and explain things in extremely careful ways to the
applicants and work with them so that we can find the best solution. She knows
the regulations extremely well and.....I have nothing but been impressed. I will
say she is extremely busy because this is a city that has a lot of historic districts
and conservation districts, and we value those, and so she is the....the gatekeeper
as the things come to the Commission. I don't think I have anything else to say
but um, this, uh, Mr. Acri man, his view and the Rock Island view of, uh, siding
differs considerably with all that we have learned about siding on historic houses.
Cole: Jessica, I was wondering whether you could comment about the adja...I mean, to
the extent it's relevant, the adjacent property that had aluminum siding. Was that
because it was put on before it became historic in that area or....
Bristow: Sure, um, I do remember looking that up when this came up. I haven't looked at
it recently,but urn, I believe I did find that it had vinyl or aluminum siding on it,
prior to the, uh,the district. So that's why that's on there. My comments were a
lack of desire to maintain your property is not a reason to approve applying vinyl
or aluminum siding. Um, I do, uh, tend to be a scribbler, so I keep handwritten
notes of every phone conversation I ever have. It's in a pile, and prior to this
appeal I went through and I have no record of any contact with them prior to
September 26th, and I do have a note that the rental inspector came to me in mid-
September. I don't have a record of a phone conversation with Jared, so I don't
have any knowledge of that happening. I would never give verbal non-written
approval for anything that required approval. Uh, painting does not require
approval. So I would give verbal approval for painting. Um.....
Fruin: It's the three minutes.
Bristow: Okay!
Throgmorton: Thank you, Jessica. Thank you, Ginalie. Uh,how bout the family, uh, three
minutes please, if...if you want to.....say anything else. (unable to hear response
from audience) Please come up if you're going to speak.
Leupold: I believe we've laid out a compelling case here, uh,judge it on its merits. Like
my wife, I would also like to thank you for your time. Uh, I read up on you and
this is a very (mumbled) group. I mean most of the town councils I go to,
somebody missed an American Legion meeting and found themselves on the
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town council (laughter) but you, uh, you're pretty special. Thank you for your
time.
Throgmorton: Thanks so much! All right, so......we have a choice here about whether to close
the public hearing right now and then have a motion, or not close the public
hearing, but how can we determine whether....whether it's timely to close the
public hearing or whether we wanna continue the public (both talking)
Dilkes: (both talking) ....you feel like you need more information.
Throgmorton: Yeah, okay. Does anybody feel like you need more information in order to make
a decision? I do not. All right.
Dukes: Mayor, I just wanted to....to point out, before you....because of your earlier
question about the issue of not historic and historic.
Throgmorton: Could you use your mic, please, Eleanor?
Dilkes: If you look at page, um......three of the guidelines, urn, under the heading `Non-
Contributing and Non-Historic Properties,' you'll see a definition of non-historic
in that first paragraph, and then you will also see the process for reclassifying
properties.
Throgmorton: Okay. Thank you. I'm gonna close the public hearing. (bangs gavel) All right,
could I have a motion to.....let me get the language right, to, uh......urn.....
where'd it go? A motion to affirm the decision of the Historic Preservation
Commission. I don't....I don't know how the vote will go, but I'd like to have
that motion come before us.
b) Consider a Motion
Botchway: So moved.
Throgmorton: Moved by Botchway.
Cole: Second.
Throgmorton: Second by Cole. All right, discussion? So, as we do this I wanna recall some
points that Eleanor has provided us with. Uh, and if I miss something really
crucial, Eleanore,please tell me. So, first we are not entitled to substitute our
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judgment for the....for that of the Commission. We might disagree with parts of
it, but we....we're not, uh....uh, entitled to substitute our judgment. Rather if we
find that the Commission exercised its powers and followed the guidelines
established by law and that its decision was not patently arbitrary or capricious,
then we must affirm the Commission's decision. If....if we find that it did act
arbitrarily or capriciously or did not follow the....the rules stipulated in the code
and so on, then....then we can do some other things. But the initial question is
what I just stated. Yeah?
Dilkes: That's accurate, and I think you need to focus on those two....two pieces of that
standard. One is were the guidelines followed, and two, um.....was there any
arbitrati....arbitrary or capricious, urn, decision-making.
Throgmorton: Right. So, do....
Dilkes: (both talking) You've been provided with the guidelines. You need to look at
those guidelines and determine that those were followed (both talking)
Throgmorton: Yeah, well let's (both talking) let's do 'em one by one, about whether the...first
whether the Commission exercised its powers and followed the guidelines
established by the Historic Preservation provisions of the City code.
Mims: It would seem to me that they,that the Commission did, um....you know,
focusing simply on those narrow things that we can focus on, um.....they have
discretion,uh, on a case-by-case basis to look at these properties, um, and make
that determination since it is technically,uh, non-historic because it hasn't been
re-evaluated and is non-contributing, um, an exception could be made. It doesn't
mean it has to be made or it will be made. It's evaluated on a case-by-case basis.
When I read, um, the minutes of the Historic Preservation Commission meeting,
and look at the guidelines, and,urn, either as Ginalie or Jessica said, you know,
kind of the....the crucial thing that it came down to for them, um....was that....
that one sentence that, you know, as a representative of mid-century modern
homes,the property is intact and worthy of preservation,uh, the existing materials
should be maintained. It's....there's not a lot of rot. There's not, it's not like you
have a lot of siding that has to be removed and then replaced either with other
pieces of wood or some other type of siding. It's more, urn,maintenance of the
siding that is there. So to me they went through.....they evaluated it. They
reached a decision based on,urn, a train of facts and logic, which other people
may or may not agree with,but it is what they did, I think, in a very logical,
thoughtful way. So I....I think they followed the guidelines.
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Throgmorton: I think I'd say as well that Jessica clearly articulated the steps that she followed in
preparing the information provided to the Commission, and the Commission was
quite clear, uh, about the process it went through in coming to the decision it's
made. It made. Uh, including agreeing to consider whether to provide an
exception for this particular property. It's not clear to me they really had to do
that,but they considered it and that's....worth noting. Anybo....anybody else
have any views about this particular point that we have to determine?
Thomas: Well I....I would agree with....with the, uh, comments that have been made. I
think in terms of the Commission's actions were consistent, uh, with the
guidelines, you know they did exercise their power and follow the guidelines, uh,
and did not act either arbitrarily or capriciously (several talking) uh.....you know,
it....there was clearly some misunderstanding prior to the Commission hearings,
with respect to....reaching a mutual understanding, uh, and that's....that's
regrettable. Uh, but in terms of the Commission's actions, I....I think they were,
uh, following the guidelines that were established.
Cole: I would agree, John.
Throgmorton: Anybody else want to add anything to that?
Botchway: I agree with comments made.
Throgmorton: (several talking) All right, so let's turn to the second point that we have to
determine, and that is whether the Commission's action was patently arbitrary or
capricious, and a decision is arbitrary or capricious when it is made without
regard to the law, or the facts of the case. I....I think it's pretty clear that the, uh,
Commission attended to the law. So.....but the rest of you might disagree. So,
if....if you agree,then would you.....would you say that the decision might
have been arbitrary or capricious with regard to the facts of the case?
Mims: No, I don't.
Thomas: Yeah, I don't....I don't see any....any error there. In fact what...what seem....
what I did find interesting, and it was sort of reading through the material, that as
we've discussed,the, uh, the building did pass the 50-year threshold, which when
I was first reading the....the standards I thought, oh! Well that(laughs) that, isn't
that the end of the story? Um.....but what....what seems to have happened is
the....the staff, and the Commission, actually looked at this to a higher standard,
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and.....and looking at the house to make sure that it did meet....the criteria for
preservation, urn, with respect to a mid-century house, uh, in making their
decision. So there was that added layer to the evaluation, um,before their...they
made their decision as to how to then proceed with the siding.
Throgmorton: Anybody else have a view about this point?
Botchway: I would agree, I mean I'm not gonna....I don't wanna discuss too much into this,
but you know, again, I appreciate you providing a....kind of reminding us of our
singular focus on this particular issue. I mean obviously there's some questions
that I have, but does it....is it germane to the Commission and the guidelines, or
whether or not they're arbitrary or capricious? No. So....I think that the
Commission acted as....as they should.
Throgmorton: Anyone else? (several talking) Maz?
Salih: I just, uh, I would like just to say few things about this. You know, as a new
Council Member, I admit that this is whole area of historic preservation is very
new to me. Uh, I am learning about it, as fast as I can (laughs) Uh, I hope you
will be patient with me in this kind of decision,but I would like to thank the City
Attorney for the memo that explain what the Council's being called on that, you
know, decide and what is standard of the review. We must use incoming
decision. I have read her memo carefully, and I have read the other material in
the package for our meeting this aft....you know, for this afternoon. I also
appreciate the work that the Historic Preservation Commission and the staff have
devote to consider, you know, the decision about this. For now I just gonna go
with the decision of the, you know, the Historic Preservation Committee that, uh,
because I really, I think that's right thing to do right now.
Throgmorton: Any further discussion?
Cole: Well I guess I would just like to briefly address the Leupolds directly. I think that
you all presented, um, a rational, thoughtful discussion, um, on why you feel that,
uh, aluminum or vinyl siding would be appropriate, and I think you presented
some very compelling arguments. Um,however, um, you know,we go back to
the standard. I think it'd be a closer call if we were called in the first instance to
sort of make this determination. Um, I think this is a situation where two
reasonable minds, I mean we heard two presentations, two thoughtful descriptions
of, you know, trying to apply the standards, and I think two parties acting in total
good faith, and so given the fact that we have the standard, in terms of what we're
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called upon to review, I don't think that the Commission acted in a patently, you
know, irrational way in terms of doing what they did. So I do think I'm gonna,
I'm leaning towards upholding the Commission's vote, but that doesn't mean that
you didn't present a very compelling case, um, but I just think in terms of what
we're called to do, it's just not sufficient.
Taylor: I agree with Rockne and....and I applaud you for....for wanting to maintain this
home and the historic value of that, uh, that,uh, style from the 50s. Uh,not
having the handbook in front of me, and knowing.....I think you'd mentioned,
Mrs. Leupold, it's like 100-something pages long, very long, although you did
mention one part of it that maybe Jessica or....or, uh, Ginalie could explain. You
said 3.2 new technology that contributes to the preservation would be
appropriate? But that's just like one small portion of it. The Commission looked
at all the factors in the handbook that....that would,uh, qualify this home for
siding versus not siding. Is that correct?
Throgmorton: She's....she's nodding yes (both talking)
Taylor: She's nodding yes, so okay! So I....I believe the Commission did follow,uh,
what they were,uh, directed to do, as far as the guidelines.
Throgmorton: Okay. We have a motion on the floor. Any further discussion? Hearing none,
roll call please. And this is to affirm the decision of the Commission. Motion
carries 7-0.
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