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HomeMy WebLinkAbout2018-04-17 Transcription Page 1 ITEM 2. Appeal of Historic Preservation Commission Decision—Deciding the appeal to the City Council of the decision of the Historic Preservation Commission denying a Certificate of Appropriateness to apply aluminum siding at 318 N. Gilbert Street in the Northside Historic District a) Public Hearing Throgmorton: We have to follow specific procedures in this, which Eleanor has laid out for us, uh, which is part of the formal meeting agenda packet. We'll do our best to follow those procedures, and Eleanor, when we (mumbled) if we slide off course (laughs) in terms of following those procedures, please alert us. Thank you. So I want to make a suggestion to the Council to see if you agree. Uh,the suggestion is that we allocate not more than 30 minutes, per party, to present their material, whatever it is they want to tell us, and then allocate ourselves another 30 minutes to discuss what we think we need to do. Uh, is that agreeable with the parties? And is it agreeable with Council? Yeah, okay, so could somebody help time this (both talking) Dilkes: We should just reflect that the parties indicated that (both talking) agreement with that. Throgmorton: Right, thank you! Uh, so can somebody help me keep track of this? All right, good deal. Thank you. So, I think we should begin with Ginalie Swaim, right, with the Historic Preservation Commission. Hi, Ginalie! Swaim: Hello, everyone! (noise on mic, unable to hear speaker) outside today. It's actually nice and sunny! (laughter) I'm Ginalie Swaim, the Chair of the Historic Preservation Commission. Um, thank you all for, um, taking this time to, um, listen to this appeal. Um, and I actually am going to defer for the first part to Jessica Bristow, who is the Historic Preservation Planner for the com....for the City. Urn, she's gonna walk you through,uh.....what has happened, from the initial contact with her and then I will pick up when, um, it came to the full Historic Preservation Commission. Thank you. Throgmorton: Okay. Hi, Jessica. Bristow: Hi! Jessica Bristow, Historic Preservation Planner and staff member for the Commission. Uh, this project first came to, uh, staff, myself, um.... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular formal meeting of April 17,2018. Page 2 Throgmorton: Pardon me, Jessica. Did I formally open the public hearing? (several talking in background) Yeah, so....I'm gonna open the public hearing. (bangs gavel) And acknowledge that Ginalie Swaim spoke briefly, uh, right prior to this, but it should be accounted as part of the public hearing. Thank you. Bristow: Urn.....so as I began, um, the project first came to staff when a,uh,rental inspector told staff that they would be receiving a call about 318 N. Gilbert because it needed painting, and this was about mid-September in 2017. Later staff found out that it had been cited for needing painting back in November of 2016. Uh, the deadline for the work had passed when the rental inspector told us about it. On September 26th, staff had voicemails from both the owner and a siding salesperson, urn, and staff called the owner, discussing the process for review, including, uh, visiting the property and,uh, putting in an application for historic review. Um, the owner had mentioned vinyl replacement siding and, um, and also the fact that there was a siding salesperson. Urn, I talked to them about the fact that because it's in a historic district, painting any existing, uh,potentially original siding would be the preferred thing, and uh, the owner did discuss, uh, the difficulty in finding a painter who would be able to work with the paint on the house because it was, urn, potentially had lead in it, and urn, staff, myself, followed up with an email that included both the application for historic review and a list of at least 10 paint contractors who can and will work with lead paint. On, uh, September 27, the next day, I talked to the siding salesperson. I reiterated the process that we need to review the property on-site and look at what the, uh, condition of the siding is; that, uh, application for review needed to be put in; urn, basically talking to them about the fact that we needed to do a formal review and that all of our approvals are written approvals. Uh, I was given the impression, urn, that the existing siding may be Masonite, which is a replacement siding that's used....fairly frequently and deteriorates rather quickly when compared to something like cedar or redwood, typical, uh(mumbled) siding. Because of the fact that that could be the case, we did discuss what appropriate replacement materials could be possible. Again, reiterating the fact that we needed to review the siding, uh,before approval could be given. At that time when we discussed any appropriate materials, we talked about the fact that, uh, it would be a smooth siding that would be approvable, not something with fake wood grain that vinyl typically has. So we discussed the idea of aluminum siding. Again, no formal approval was given, no application for review had been submitted at this time. Um,we did discuss this as....what would be appropriate if replacement was warranted. Urn, because it was listed as non-historic, urn, a smooth, aluminum siding could be considered and I also told them that I would visit that day. This is, uh, 318 Gilbert Street on September 27th. Urn, can you maybe dim the lights? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular formal meeting of April 17, 2018. Page 3 And this is what we saw. There was quite a bit of brush along the alley. There's an alley on the right side of the property there. Urn, as you can see this is the south side of the house, also facing the alley, and in that, uh,bump-out part with the gable, there's peeling paint. When I look at this on-site, I see peeling paint. I see some of the wood showing. It was very evident that there was wood grain, which means it's not Masonite. It was then either cedar or redwood, and because the wood grain is kind of gray, it was obvious that it needed to be prepped properly before painting. All of the paint would need to be stripped off. The grain is needed to be sanded off. The correct moisture content needed to be checked. It needed to be primed with an oil-based primer, and then painted, and um, after I visited the house on September 27th, this is just a back view of the house at that time so that you can see it. I then turned around and immediately emailed the owner, since they were the responsible party, and told them that the siding was in good condition and should be painted. Confirmed that the painters on the list would be able to deal with the lead paint, and also talked to them about the appropriate preparation and techniques for painting so that when they talk to painting contractors, they could be informed about the process. Um, I also talked to them about the fact that the stone in the, uh, front entry should not be painted over. It would need to be, uh, remain, uh, uncovered and, urn.....let's see, oh, and then I said that, uh, siding replacement was not warranted because of the relatively good condition of the siding. The only place where I really found any rot or anything was, urn, well I don't know if this map works....00ps! Um, up near the gutter on that...you can see just a little bit of deterioration, and that was about all I saw for deterioration on this house, and that would be very typical and that's a small piece of wood that could be replaced. On September 28th then I also talked to the siding salesperson and told them the same thing that I told the owner and the salesperson told me that the siding had been ordered. I told them that no approval had been given for the project, and in fact no application had been submitted seeking approval, and I told them that the siding was in good condition, so it should just be painted. Urn, I received several phone calls,um, including a phone call on October 3rd•again with the siding salesperson that was much like before. Again telling them that the siding was in good condition and needed to be painted and replacement was not warranted. On October 12th, there was an email from the siding salesperson to her supervisors copying, uh, myself and Bob Miklo, who she had also talked to in the interim, and basically it was explaining why she had lost a siding sale, and it also explained that the owner had originally contracted for vinyl siding back on September 1St, long before they had ever talked to any of us. Um, I responded basically just to clarify a few, uh,points in the email that I thought were incorrect. On October 20th, finally an application for siding replacement was submitted. I replied to them that since the, uh, I could not This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular formal meeting of April 17, 2018. Page 4 recommend replacement because the siding was in good condition, that we would then, urn, put this before the Commission for a review. Uh,basically all properties in a historic district need to be reviewed when it comes down to siding. Um.....there's......with this property.....here's a few more photos,uh, right before the meeting,uh, I went back and on November 2'11 took another photo, and it showed that somebody had tried to go over the....the peeling paint area on that bump-out and....and put basically a....a thin coat. It was probably either a primer or a paint coat over it, so that at least the peeling paint didn't show. That was not the proper technique, so that would not last, but, uh, there was an attempt to....to, uh, remediate the problem a little bit. Urn, this property, as you can see from the star, is in the very bottom part of the Northside Historic District. At the time that the district was created and that this property was surveyed, it was considered non-historic. For historic preservation,historic is at least 50-years-old. Once a property reaches that 50-year threshold, it can be considered historic. For this district,we have,uh, a.....a group of houses that are basically date from about 1860 to, uh, the 1930s as far as the properties that contribute to the district, that all go towards making the district what it is. When we look at whether a property is historic or not, um, once it's 50-years-old, then we also determine is it contributing to the district, or is it not contributing to the district? If it was built outside of this regular period of design, it would be considered non-contributing. When I wrote the staff report to the Commission about this property, I also discussed that, because....this property, while it was non-historic in the district, could be considered historic now. We don't know if it would be considered contributing or non-contributing. That's something that would need to happen when the whole district was evaluated. It is historic. That is kind of the point, but when we presented it to the Commission, we presented it as it was non-historic. A non-historic property in a historic district can have a specific exception granted towards it. What happens in that case is the Commission reviews it to see if it has any historic character that could be considered worthy of preservation. While I was looking at this property, I see a house that hits all....this is taken just the other day, so all of the brush has been removed. All the paint has been touched up. It's still not a....a good finish paint job with proper prepping, but it....it looks all white and cleaned up right now. Urn, this house meets all of the key..... characteristics that would.....show it to us as a mid-century modem ranch house. It has a broad, low one-story shape. It has a low pitched roof without any dormers. It has the low, or the....the large picture window in the stone area. The, it's asymmetrical. Um, meaning it's not, uh, balanced and equal on both sides. It's built low to the ground. The front entry is off-centered and sheltered under that main roof, and recessed into the L. That's one of the specific ranch types, and the windows, you can't really seem `em in this picture, but it has a top and This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular formal meeting of April 17, 2018. Page 5 bottom sash, and they've divided horizontally,just once in each sash, and that's also very typical of a ranch house, and it also has shutters only on the front. When I look at this house, it has all of its original, urn....storm windows, windows, siding..... nothing seems to have been changed on this house. So it had all of the historic characteristics of a ranch house. That is what the Commission then was charged with reviewing. Does it have any of these characteristics that make it worthy of preservation, and at that point they had determined that it did and, urn,that's where Ginalie comes in! Swaim: Thank you. So, urn, the....Commission, uh, reviewed this application November 9th at its regular monthly meeting. Uh, the staff presented the report and showed exterior photos of the property and all this is in your packet. The staff report addressed five pertinent issues—the age and architectural style of the house, every report always begins with that;its historic or non-historic status in the district, likewise its contributing or non-contributing status; when exceptions to guidelines are allowed or disallowed; and the condition of the existing siding. Note, siding here means the cladding of the housing. It's not a word we often think of in, uh, earlier houses but in this case the siding is, uh, probably redwood or, urn.....cedar, um, what many of our older houses are of course. Uh.....and siding is one of the defining characteristics of a historic district and therefore protected by the guidelines. So in brief,the staffs detailed descriptions and photos from the site visit showed this 1958 house to be an intact representation of a typical mid- century modern ranch style. Though the house is modest, it retains its original form, details, and materials. When the neighborhood survey was completed in 1998, this 1958 house was classified as non-historic because it was not yet 50 years old, the threshold. Note, as Jessica said, the house has since passed that threshold and can now be considered historic. I should also note there's growing interest in mid-century modern ranch style houses, especially among the youngest population of home seekers. In fact, last year the Parade of Homes by Friends of Historic Preservation featured mid-century homes. In other words, what was not yet thought of as significant in 1998 is now drawing great interest and.... protection. The house, furthermore, is considered non-contributing because the year it was built, 1958, li....lies outside the period of significance for the district. It's from a different era. Nevertheless, non-contributing and non-historic properties are not exempt from pres....preservation guidelines. Applications for siding replacement in historic district require a permit and review. Exceptions can exist for non-historic houses. Applications for exceptions are reviewed on a case-by-case basis. The staff report and photos show that the original cedar or redwood lap siding was in good condition, except some minimal dir...deterioration around the gutters, where rot is often expected. They show...it This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular formal meeting of April 17,2018. Page 6 showed that the wood siding only needed proper preparation and a new paint job. The Commission carefully analyzed the staff's findings, including the photographic evidence, asked questions of the applicant and staff; and then adhered to the guidelines. A, the siding is not deteriorated beyond repair. Therefore,by the guidelines, there are no grounds for replacing it. B, the house is worthy of preservation as a good example of mid-century modern ranch, and is considered historic. It is over 50 years. Therefore, no exception should be allowed. The Commission voted unanimously to deny the application. I believe the record shows that the Commission followed the guidelines and did not act in an arbitrary or capricious manner. Thank you. Throgmorton: Y'all are finished right now, right? Okay. I....would be appropriate for us to ask questions, I believe, of....of, uh, the presenters, uh, Ginalie and Jessica. You're supposed to follow certain guidelines. I heard Ginalie say right there at the end that you did follow the guidelines,uh, published in the Iowa His...Iowa City Historic Preservation Handbook, which are based on Secretary of Interior's, uh, standards for rehabilitation. Swaim: Yes (both talking) Throgmorton: ....other things. Right? Okay. And....yeah, all right. So would anybody on the Com...uh, on Council like to ask Jessica or Ginalie any questions? Thomas: There....there were coup....both of you said that the.....the structure can be considered historic. Does that mean that it has historic status? Is that...(mumbled) Bristow: There has been, uh,there's been no official review of this district to determine if all of the non-historic properties in the district are now historic. When we look at it individually, we would consider that, yes, it's historic because it...it is 50-years- old. Technically we would also look at the fact that it actually represents a known architectural style in that as well. It is assumed that at some point when the Commission is not obligated with other concerns that they will actually go through each of the districts and look at the non-contributing and non-historic properties and review them to see if they still are non-historic or non-contributing, and at that point this house would definitely become historic, and then it would be reviewed whether or not it would be contributing or non-contributing. And that would depend on whether or not the, uh, post-war infill was considered a contributing part of the district, which in this instance it probably could be. It is something that was talked about in the original, uh,review of the district, that This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular formal meeting of April 17, 2018. Page 7 there was this kind of infill that was happening. So it could become contributing even to the district, but currently we would look at this house individually as,urn, historic. Throgmorton: Just to pin down a couple facts, uh, to get `em on the record. Do I understand correctly....huh? (several talking) Bristow: I just pushed the button here and it rose a little bit. (laughs) (several talking and laughing) Throgmorton: Do I understand correctly that the Department of Interior's guidelines and the City's Historic Preservation Manual basically reject covering original siding with "synthetic siding," and that...uh, they....those, the manual and the guidelines define aluminum as a synthetic? Bristow: Yeah, it...it was something that came up in our....our Commission meeting that aluminum is on the periodic table, so how could it be synthetic, but both the Secretary of the Interior and our guidelines consider asbestos, aluminum, vinyl, or, um, asphalt, fake brick looking siding as synthetic siding, and it is, um, recommended in our guideli.....guidelines to actually remove that type of siding to any historic property and not apply it because while it may last longer than a wood siding, it will deteriorate. It may need replacing, and it also tends to trap moisture, and it can lead to the deterioration of any historic siding that's underneath. Also applying it can mean that you need to cut back trim and other things so that the historic material can be damaged as well when it's applied. Taylor: And again,these guidelines apply whether it's contributing or non-contributing? Is that true? Bristow: Correct. The guidelines apply to every property in a district or a local landmark. It's just that there are some exceptions that are available for properties that are non-contributing or non-historic, and that's why we talked about the idea of....of, urn, the possibility of putting some, uh, aluminum siding on this house because there is.....an exception for non-historic properties in a historic district. There is not an exception for that for non-contributing properties in a historic district. So if this had...this property had been reviewed and determined just to be non- contributing, that exception wouldn't apply at all either. Throgmorton: I for one will admit that I got confused in reading the written material,uh, about, uh, whether the structure is historic or non-historic, and does the distinction make This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular formal meeting of April 17,2018. Page 8 a difference, and, uh, I.....I couldn't fully track, uh, the.....the written text in the, uh,the....the denial of the application, I mean the Commission's formal denial of the application, relative to,uh, the statement that Ginalie provided us in writing, uh, and the, uh.....the minutes of the Commission's meeting. I'll put that weight on myself largely, you know, but I...I'll admit that I've had....had trouble tracking, uh, the distinction and whether the distinction makes a difference. So, can....can you please restate as clearly and slowly as you can, precisely....what ....um, how the Commission defined this house and how that definition played into the decision the Commission finally made. Bristow: I admit that the guidelines sometimes are, uh, confusing,because they involve, uh, legal language and....and that's why I'm here to help people, uh, wade through, um, what they mean. When the Commission was determining, uh, whether or not to pro....approve the siding, um, they talked about the house and whether it not...whether or not it had any....redeeming historical character that was worthy of preservation. Whether or not the house is historic, it is whether or not it has some characteristic to be preserved that was determined by the Commission. When it is found that while it might be modest, it is....very characteristic of a mid-century ranch house. They determined that that meant that it then was worthy of preservation and denied the application of siding. The question of whether or not it is historic or non-historic....is only about whether or not they can apply the exception at all. Since we discussed the exception, and the exception is only for non-historic properties, we went with the fact that on the map and in the guidelines, it is listed as non-historic. So we applied the exception. We didn't go through the formal process of deciding that it is historic, because then the exception wouldn't have been allowed at all. Thomas: Right. That....that was my concern and question, was it....before I had read the minutes of the meetings, that it seemed straightaway there was a trigger here in that it had passed the 50-year threshold and therefore was historic, as I understood it, and historic structures in a historic district are not, do not qualify for an exception. Bristow: I think that there would have been a greater concern with this process if we had just decided, oh, it's historic so we can't do the histor....the exception at all, and just discounted that without any formal review of its historic quality at all. Since we did not do that, and we went ahead and allowed the exception to be discussed and reviewed by the Commission, I think that shows that we followed the guidelines even more closely than, uh, we would if we just looked at the house. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular formal meeting of April 17,2018. Page 9 Cole: So in the 50s, vinyl siding was not used at all? This is....that never can be considered historic or....or appropriate? I think......is that a new phenomenon (mumbled) the same thing would be with aluminum as well? Bristow: Ur....I'm personally not really, uh, up on when vinyl siding started. I think it's more that we look at this house and it....it's pretty apparent that it has its original siding, and so with that in mind we want to keep that original siding. Now if it was deteriorated so that it could be covered or replaced,then that's when we would of looked at some kind of an aluminum siding or something that might have been appropriate at the time of the construction of the house, but it's because the fact that the siding itself wasn't deteriorated, we didn't want to hurt it further by covering it with something that would deteriorate that historic siding. Cole: So if it had been at a greater state of deterioration, you could of foreseen a circumstances where vinyl could have been used, am I understanding that correctly? Bristow: I can see a circumstance where a replacement siding could have been used. Whether or not it's vinyl or aluminum, I think it would still tend more towards aluminum than vinyl. Cause I think....with the limited knowledge I have on vinyl and aluminum siding, I think that aluminum was potentially more appropriate during the 50s than vinyl. And, um, we also would tend to not approve, um, the fake wood grain texture, and most vinyl siding tends to be that. I know that it's possible to get vinyl siding that's smooth, um, but it's, uh, much more expensive and much more difficult to get it. So....in this case I think that it would have been, um....uh, an aluminum siding that would have been approved, over vinyl, but I....I didn't review that because of the fact that....it wasn't deteriorated. It was something that we discussed in the phone conversations with both the owner and the siding salesperson as possibilities, but no approval was given and never is given over the phone. Cole: And in deciding whether something is appropriate or not, are you solely limited by what the Department of Interior guidelines are, or how much discretion do you have? You had talked about the case-by-case standard, urn, is that the sole definition in terms of the Department of the Interior guidelines, in terms of what's appropriate and what's not? Bristow: We definitely look at them and it's when they are not clear on something, where we do further research. Because of the fact that mid-century modern is something that's just starting to become, uh,National Register, uh, listing eligible and really, This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular formal meeting of April 17, 2018. Page 10 urn, considered historic, it's something that we would do research on, and we do a lot of research on every property, even when the guidelines and the Secretary of the Interiors are clear on things, we do research just to make sure that we get things right, because we....when we're talking about built structures that could last for hundreds of years, we don't wanna make mistakes. So we would do research for that. Swaim: I'd like to just add one point. One of the major tenets of preservation, um, is that, urn, one repairs rather than replaces. So, uh, repair of original materials is always the preferred method, urn, and you'll see that in the guidelines, uh, Secretary of Interior's, as well as our own. Um, something has to be very, very deteriorated, in some cases irreparable before we would allow some kind of replacement. Throgmorton: I have a feeling we're, uh, pretty much at the 30-minute mark. Uh, but I'd like to ask, uh, one more question please. Which....this is gonna go over territory already tried, but I'm reading the text of the denial of a....of a Certificate of Appropriateness. The part that begins, 'The exception exists for non....non- historic properties, in historic districts, where the structure may be evaluated on a case-by-case basis,' do you see where I am in the text? Swaim: Uh huh. Throgmorton: Okay. And then I'm gonna skip the next few lines, but.....uh, and then it says, as you've noted, uh, 'At the time the original survey, the property was classified as non-historic because it wasn't 50-years-old,' and so on. But then the text says, 'Now the house would be considered non-contributing to the district,but would be considered historic.' Because it's more than 50-years-old. And this is all part of, uh, the, uh, the.....this is part of the rationale for denying.the exception, right? So now the hist....the house would be considered non-contributing to the district, but would be considered historic because it's more than 50-years-old, and then, `As....as a representative of mid-ce....mid-century modern homes, the property is intact and worthy of preservation. The existing materials should be maintained.' So....I'm havin' trouble following that rationale. I don't know if the rest of you are, and....and we....we need to hear from the other folks before we say anything explicit about this, but.....I'm not sure how we get from the exception exists for non-historic properties, and then we get to now the house would be considered non-contributing but would be considered historic. So.....just kind of leave it there. Yeah. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular formal meeting of April 17, 2018. Page 11 Bristow: Well and I'd like to point out that the actual reason for the de....we discussed the historic and non-historic in the denial because it exists as a fact and somethin' that we discussed for the property,but the actual reason for the denial is the line that follows that, that says, 'As a representative of mid-century modem homes, the property is intact and worthy of preservation.' That is the key line that's really the reason why the exception was denied. It is showing that.....whether it's historic or not, we used the non-historic exception and it was found that as a representative of mid-century modern homes, it fits the definition and all the characteristics of a ranch home, and because it is intact, it's worthy of preservation and therefore the application is denied. So it's.....it's really actually that key line after that that is the....the.....the real crux of the reason why the application is denied and what fits the exception. The rest is included because it was discussed so much at length during the....the review in here and every.... everywhere else, but whether or not it's historic, it's this fact that is the reason for the denial. Throgmorton: Okay. Thank you. (several talking in background) Taylor: So when you say intact and worthy of preservation, you're referring as you mentioned earlier to the materials, not necessarily the building itself and staying in that...on that lot, but preserving the materials,the original materials, as you've said seemed to be in...in good condition. Is that....that's what you're referring to when you say preservation (both talking) Bristow: Yeah, I would think actually both, I mean, we wouldn't want to take it down and remove it either,but yeah,preserving the materials. Therefore not covering it with siding that could lead to rot and the destruction of the historic materials. Taylor: Thank you. Bristow: Or original materials, if you'd rather. Throgmorton: Okay. Thank you. I....I think we should probably shift to the applicant for the, uh, an exception. The owner of the property, yeah. Hi, good evening! Leupold: Good evening. Throgmorton: Please state your name and we'll go from there! This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular formal meeting of April 17, 2018. Page 12 Leupold: Happily! I'm Bill Leupold from 13515 253rd Avenue, Spirit Lake, Iowa. I bring you greetings from the land of ice and snow (laughter) Twelve inches Saturday and (several talking) another six or seven coming today and tomorrow. (several talking) Uh, I heard a lot of could, may, it might rot, we'd like to keep it original, uh, I was happy to hear at this hearing that, uh, aluminum is considered an appropriate covering. Aluminum siding was invented or used since 1948. So it would be quite appropriate to put on this building. Now Jessica's narrative was very good, but she did miss one step, and I'll let my son explain that. Um.... you've also heard that this house may contain lead paint. Now I....in thinking of covering this with aluminum, that paint would be contained. It would be better for the environment. It would keep the house looking historically correct! Plus, it would limit the amount of upkeep that the house would need. I'll admit, that's part of my idea for doing this. Uh, we were fully....uh, going to have it painted by painters. My son will explain that. We have checked into, uh, getting someone who might scrape the paint legally,but we still feel that the aluminum siding would keep this in its historic context. Now at the hearing,the only, uh, thing that was said about aluminum siding was A, it would still need upkeep, and B, it might get wasps behind it. I didn't quite feel that the Board really considered that.....and earlier when we called, we talked to Mr. Mikla? Is that the name (several talking in background) Mikla? About coming before the Board and we were told, well, that probably wouldn't do any good. So if it....it was almost like there was a prior day on this. That the decision was already made. Questions were not fully asked. Or explanations asked for. I still think aluminum siding would be good for this. It would keep it in its historic context. Jared! Throgmorton: Good evening, Jared. Would you please sa....state your name please? Leupold: Absolutely! My name's Jared Leupold. I'm the current resident at 318 N. Gilbert Street. Um, so wanna go back to how this whole process started, and actually why we're even here probably. So going....well.....maybe even further back. So looked at getting the house painted. Contacted two or three painters, to ask 'em, hey, what's the....what can we do, what are we lookin' at. Well, we're not gonna really touch it cause it's got, probably it's got lead paint (coughing, difficult to hear speaker) so you need to contact this person. Even folks that normally do lead paint, they didn't want to touch it. Not quite sure why. I don't know if it was a money thing or the project was too small. Um, we've in fact since contacted someone that could do it, for the lead, and they actually recommended not to do it. Um, but that's neither here nor there. So then the next part, uh, talked to my folks. Like, well, let's take a look at maybe a siding on it then instead. Met with, uh, salesperson from Acri, and we talked about two different things. We're This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular formal meeting of April 17, 2018. Page 13 looking at mason and possibly vinyl on there. Uh, leave the brick exposed. Actually the shutter windows would stay the same. Just do a built-out on it. So how we got here in the first place is that....uh, played phone tag with Jessica back and forth, um, and then finally she left a message one day, stating that the home would be okay to have siding on it. I didn't need to worry about anything. So that's the message I got. Thought my due diligence was already done. Got the approval by phone. And so I went ahead and spoke to this sales agent and got the siding set up to get done. (mumbled) after that...that was my part into it, and then the rest of it was (unable to hear, away from mic) Leupold: All right, I'm up. Throgmorton: Could you state your name please? Leupold: (laughs) I'm Julia Leupold, also of Spirit Lake. And, um.....thank you so much for allowing us to come today. I know you all have busy schedules and we appreciate this opportunity to talk to you. And first thing I'd like to do, I think, is to ask how many of you, did you read the minutes from the November 9th meeting? Throgmorton: I (mumbled) It was in the packet. Leupold: Okay. Well I....I appreciate,they were long (laughs) and arduous, as much as the speeches that have been done today! But, this is what I have to say I guess. Um, as you heard Jared say, he contacted different painters to paint the house with no success. Jessica sent me a list of painters, that's true, but I got a little discouraged. One address was a, where a felony arrest had taken place. So I was really....a little reluctant to engage that person. Um, another company is retired, and I think no longer painting. One was from Anamosa. One was from Tipton. Um..... another one I was reading their web site and they sounded really good. They say, oh, first thing we do is power wash that house. Oh, the handbook says you cannot do that. So I tried to pursue quite a few of those names that she gave me, but it didn't seem like the thing to do and at that point I said....well, let's put siding on this house. Again, trying to, uh, relieve the painting issue.....for a long- term solution. Now, it's been my assumption....that as an employee of City Hall and City government, Jessica Bristow, you have hired as your preservation planner, your expert, uh, she has several degrees in art and architecture and so forth....and you know it seemed obvious why I took her at her word. You know, Jared took her at her word....when he was told, 'Go ahead, you can do anything,' and he proceeded to order siding. Um....you know, she....she represents you as a This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular formal meeting of April 17,2018. Page 14 historical commission, and my goodness, I....have.....have all of you read the 107-plus page handbook? (laughs) You know, it is pretty confusing. It's contradictory. You can go to one page, it says one thing. On the next it says something else. It truly does (laughs) It's very confusing. Urn, but the historical district that our home is in, as Jessica said, covers 1850 to 1930. And so those guidelines that are set out for that say paint. Well of course it says paint! Paint was the only option for many, many years. But as my husband pointed out, aluminum siding....was in use by that time, and we are certainly not changing the structure. I love that it's a mid-50s modern house, that Jessica described. It's wonderful! And trust me, it's wonderful inside too! But the Commission only deals with the exterior. The outside. So in 3.2 of the handbook, it specifically states that new technology, materials, and practices, which contribute to the preservation....of a building in this case, this home, would be appropriate. Now, you....you've heard what we've said and kind of getting down to the crux of it. In the affiday...from the City Attorney, it says that the only means that we have.... is to prove that Jessica's actions were arbitrary and capricious. Ladies and gentlemen, I believe they were. Capricious also says in our handout given....I can find it (laughs) um.....that.....protocol will be done, for you lawyers that are here. It says in judges of the world, if they didn't follow correct procedure, they can be charged with arbitrary and capricious, and that's what Jessica did! She told Jared he could put on siding. Then she told myself and our siding representative, sure! You can put aluminum siding on, if it meets these guidelines. If it fits the same profile of wood that is on there. If it has no wood grain. I find that kind of ironic. (laughs) Wood is original but we mustn't make it look like wood. Don't cover up the stone work. I wouldn't dream of covering up that stone work! It's wonderful! And so our,uh, Acri Company representative hunted around and they found an aluminum siding that would be appropriate and in keeping with 1950s style aluminum siding. So,my point end is, Jessica did not do research. It took her till September 260i or 7°' that she told you, finally then after she had already told Jared, do anything, after the first of September she told myself and my representative this aluminum is fine if it meets criteria. It was only after that that she actually went the less than four blocks north of here.....to physically look at that house. And she stated the same in her testimony. September 26°i and 27°'. Now, I think that's a little bit erratic behavior for someone who is a professional in her field. She is the expert. So....I think I'll leave it at that. Throgmorton: All right, thank you. Leupold: Any questions? This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular formal meeting of April 17,2018. Page 15 Throgmorton: Maybe. Is there anybody else in your group that wants to speak? Acri: Uh, Nicholas Acri. I'm a U of I grad. I own a few homes here, but I've come out of Illinois. Uh, I'd just like to help this Board. Urn, I come from a town, Rock Island, Illinois. We have a historic district, urn, with beautiful homes that....1800's mansions that, uh,you know, were from railroad people or John Deere people. Uh, that have a lot of historic significance. The time period, I....I looked through the Iowa City winners, uh, those homes have a lot of....the....the winners have a lot of historic significance. This home, uh, I'm pretty sure most of everybody here agrees, nobody's comin' off the highway to view this home. You know, this isn't, uh, a home that's....Iowa City has some homes, but this isn't one of'em. So on the subject of conforming, non-conforming, I talked to my local, urn, you know, as....as this is kind of a, you know, not a friendly relationship, I talked to my local, uh, person, Rock Island, who's....lives in that district, who's sat on the board for 30 years, and I said what is the difference between a contributing structure and a non-contributing structure. This home is considered a non-contributing structure. She said, okay, if it's non-contributing, you have a lot more leeway interpreting the rules. Okay? i.e., if even on....in her home, which is....an immaculate mansion, if she decided to build a garage in the back, uh, that would be a non-contributing structure. She could put...she said she would put vinyl siding on that structure. But on her home, you know, from the 1800s, no. Absolutely not. So.....this home, um, the paint is, unfortunately they let it go too far. Once wood gets water in it,uh, you're not gonna take the boards off, get `em back in a kiln and get that, all that water out. You're gonna end up paintin' it and it's gonna pop. I watched it in Rock Island. I've been in the siding industry for 30 years. Um, even the beautiful homes that are in that time period have siding on them right now because the historic commission said, no, you need to paint `em and people walked away from 'em. And they sat. They sat in condemned state until they finally decided, you know what? Maybe we were....causing too much cost, uh, for....what we're trying to accomplish, and that is we're trying to preserve this neighborhood. And so we....they started to focus on the details, you know, the big corbels or the architectural window treatments and things like that, and not the siding. And what she said to me, and I....I sent her this picture of this house, she said, uh, architecturally speaking she would like to see, uh, the same profile, even a....a 7- or an 8-inch, that's an 8-inch, 7- or an 8-inch. She said from the street you can't tell the difference between aluminum and vinyl. I mean there is some stigma, um....(mumbled) I've been doin' this for 30 years. The vinyl siding 30 years ago, uh, my dad wouldn't even let me put it on. Wouldn't let us do it. Uh, but today's vinyl siding, you can't....from the street, you can't tell the difference. It doesn't have a high gloss finish. It doesn't have, urn, it This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular formal meeting of April 17, 2018. Page 16 looks more like painted wood than anything. The other nice thing about it is, because this ....for sure has lead-based paint on it, uh, and I....and I.....I've taken siding off of houses that we did 30 years ago. You can still literally see the pencil marks....where guys wrote down 110-inches. The pencil lead will still be there. So it really does do a great job of encasing this, uh, and preserving it, without, uh, a lot of cost, and a lot of danger in, uh, lead-based paint, uh,remedation cause the Acri Company is a lead-based paint certified contractor and those costs are fairly significant if you want to try to remove lead-based paint and deal with it because nobody wants to see that in children's mouths. Uh, and it....it's something that can get caught in the air and blow, and literally looking at this structure, literally the neighbor has vinyl siding on her house. I mean literally right next door. So to say that this one is somehow historically significant, uh, I would say the things that I would look for is the same things that, um,my acquaintance in Rock Island looked for, and say, hey, let's not change it from....a wide-lap siding to a low-lap siding. I could see them requesting that. I could see them requesting, hey, let's not....remove the stone. I could see them saying let's not alter the window size. Let's not cut in a giant window or something like that. But nothing that we're trying to accomplish here, with putting on a.....a wide-board siding is gonna change the look of that house from the street. Uh, I just....and....and it's going to be in lead-based safe practices, and it should give these folks a....a good value, uh, moving forward! You have any other questions on the difference between conforming and non-conforming now? Throgmorton: No thanks. I, yeah, I think you meant non-contributing. Acri: Non-contributing, yeah (both talking) Throgmorton: No thanks. I....I.....(unable to hear female speaking from audience) Leupold: If Jessica's actions were arbitrary and capricious, which is what this whole hearing is about, as I understand it, she made the arbitrary decision that Jared could do anything he wanted to, and so we ordered siding. Then she told me, and I was happy to oblige the things that she wanted and comply with her wishes, so I'm trying to meet her halfway about the aluminum siding. So that's two times she had opinions, and then much to my shock, when she sent her staff proposal, it said, oh, this is a historical house. It's 50-years-old and we'll only recommend paint. Well, isn't paint a little arbitrary too? Like I said, that was all that was available, before 1930, 40, that's what they used, but she made three different decisions. Now you are all professionals. Do you get three tries to get the answer when you are...working with people, clients, patients, do you get three tries? Can This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular formal meeting of April 17, 2018. Page 17 you say this and that and then, oh, by the way....that sounds pretty arbitrary and capricious to me. Thank you. Throgmorton: Thank you. I...I'd like to ask one quick question, uh, with the original, was the house originally built with aluminum siding on it? Leupold: No, it was not. Throgmorton: Okay,thank you. Uh, are....are there other questions for the, uh, for the family? Taylor: You've owned it for how long? How many years? Leupold: Twenty years. Taylor: And....and you had painted it during that time (both talking) few times? Leupold: Yes. Yes, it's been painted. Taylor: Okay. Thank you. Throgmorton: Okay, uh, I....I think, uh, though I did not say this at the out-set, it seems to me it would be fair to offer each side like, I don't know, three minutes rebuttal. Is that a reasonable thing to do? Uh, would, uh, and before anyone generally speaks I'd just like to note that it's.....we're not assessing whether a staff member, uh, acted arbitrarily or capriciously. The question's whether the Commission's decision was arbitrary or commiss....or capricious,the Commission's decision. Ginalie? Swaim: That took care of one of my points, for my three minutes. Yes, it's....it's the Commission. Hope that my run-through of our decision-making process showed that we were not capricious or arbitrary. Um,the....the denial of Certificate of Appropriateness,uh, the first paragraph that's indented says the....it's not, the application was not approved due to the following reason: it's not deteriorated beyond repair. We looked that....at that and found that was true. That is always one of the first qualifications. Um.....I own a Victorian two-story. Had lead paint on it. Found a painter who took the lead paint off about 10 years ago. He has won several awards for....uh, painting Victorians. It happens. They do it. It doesn't seem to be a problem for the painting profession in this town or outlying towns. I have to, even though Jessica is not being judged here as capricious or arbitrary, I cannot, um, I cannot listen to her being impugned in this way. I have known her for a couple of years,have seen her as extremely thorough, extremely This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular formal meeting of April 17,2018. Page 18 attentive(laughs) and uh, considerate. Works extremely hard to inform herself of every possible detail and explain things in extremely careful ways to the applicants and work with them so that we can find the best solution. She knows the regulations extremely well and.....I have nothing but been impressed. I will say she is extremely busy because this is a city that has a lot of historic districts and conservation districts, and we value those, and so she is the....the gatekeeper as the things come to the Commission. I don't think I have anything else to say but um, this, uh, Mr. Acri man, his view and the Rock Island view of, uh, siding differs considerably with all that we have learned about siding on historic houses. Cole: Jessica, I was wondering whether you could comment about the adja...I mean, to the extent it's relevant, the adjacent property that had aluminum siding. Was that because it was put on before it became historic in that area or.... Bristow: Sure, um, I do remember looking that up when this came up. I haven't looked at it recently,but urn, I believe I did find that it had vinyl or aluminum siding on it, prior to the, uh,the district. So that's why that's on there. My comments were a lack of desire to maintain your property is not a reason to approve applying vinyl or aluminum siding. Um, I do, uh, tend to be a scribbler, so I keep handwritten notes of every phone conversation I ever have. It's in a pile, and prior to this appeal I went through and I have no record of any contact with them prior to September 26th, and I do have a note that the rental inspector came to me in mid- September. I don't have a record of a phone conversation with Jared, so I don't have any knowledge of that happening. I would never give verbal non-written approval for anything that required approval. Uh, painting does not require approval. So I would give verbal approval for painting. Um..... Fruin: It's the three minutes. Bristow: Okay! Throgmorton: Thank you, Jessica. Thank you, Ginalie. Uh,how bout the family, uh, three minutes please, if...if you want to.....say anything else. (unable to hear response from audience) Please come up if you're going to speak. Leupold: I believe we've laid out a compelling case here, uh,judge it on its merits. Like my wife, I would also like to thank you for your time. Uh, I read up on you and this is a very (mumbled) group. I mean most of the town councils I go to, somebody missed an American Legion meeting and found themselves on the This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular formal meeting of April 17, 2018. Page 19 town council (laughter) but you, uh, you're pretty special. Thank you for your time. Throgmorton: Thanks so much! All right, so......we have a choice here about whether to close the public hearing right now and then have a motion, or not close the public hearing, but how can we determine whether....whether it's timely to close the public hearing or whether we wanna continue the public (both talking) Dilkes: (both talking) ....you feel like you need more information. Throgmorton: Yeah, okay. Does anybody feel like you need more information in order to make a decision? I do not. All right. Dukes: Mayor, I just wanted to....to point out, before you....because of your earlier question about the issue of not historic and historic. Throgmorton: Could you use your mic, please, Eleanor? Dilkes: If you look at page, um......three of the guidelines, urn, under the heading `Non- Contributing and Non-Historic Properties,' you'll see a definition of non-historic in that first paragraph, and then you will also see the process for reclassifying properties. Throgmorton: Okay. Thank you. I'm gonna close the public hearing. (bangs gavel) All right, could I have a motion to.....let me get the language right, to, uh......urn..... where'd it go? A motion to affirm the decision of the Historic Preservation Commission. I don't....I don't know how the vote will go, but I'd like to have that motion come before us. b) Consider a Motion Botchway: So moved. Throgmorton: Moved by Botchway. Cole: Second. Throgmorton: Second by Cole. All right, discussion? So, as we do this I wanna recall some points that Eleanor has provided us with. Uh, and if I miss something really crucial, Eleanore,please tell me. So, first we are not entitled to substitute our This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular formal meeting of April 17, 2018. Page 20 judgment for the....for that of the Commission. We might disagree with parts of it, but we....we're not, uh....uh, entitled to substitute our judgment. Rather if we find that the Commission exercised its powers and followed the guidelines established by law and that its decision was not patently arbitrary or capricious, then we must affirm the Commission's decision. If....if we find that it did act arbitrarily or capriciously or did not follow the....the rules stipulated in the code and so on, then....then we can do some other things. But the initial question is what I just stated. Yeah? Dilkes: That's accurate, and I think you need to focus on those two....two pieces of that standard. One is were the guidelines followed, and two, um.....was there any arbitrati....arbitrary or capricious, urn, decision-making. Throgmorton: Right. So, do.... Dilkes: (both talking) You've been provided with the guidelines. You need to look at those guidelines and determine that those were followed (both talking) Throgmorton: Yeah, well let's (both talking) let's do 'em one by one, about whether the...first whether the Commission exercised its powers and followed the guidelines established by the Historic Preservation provisions of the City code. Mims: It would seem to me that they,that the Commission did, um....you know, focusing simply on those narrow things that we can focus on, um.....they have discretion,uh, on a case-by-case basis to look at these properties, um, and make that determination since it is technically,uh, non-historic because it hasn't been re-evaluated and is non-contributing, um, an exception could be made. It doesn't mean it has to be made or it will be made. It's evaluated on a case-by-case basis. When I read, um, the minutes of the Historic Preservation Commission meeting, and look at the guidelines, and,urn, either as Ginalie or Jessica said, you know, kind of the....the crucial thing that it came down to for them, um....was that.... that one sentence that, you know, as a representative of mid-century modern homes,the property is intact and worthy of preservation,uh, the existing materials should be maintained. It's....there's not a lot of rot. There's not, it's not like you have a lot of siding that has to be removed and then replaced either with other pieces of wood or some other type of siding. It's more, urn,maintenance of the siding that is there. So to me they went through.....they evaluated it. They reached a decision based on,urn, a train of facts and logic, which other people may or may not agree with,but it is what they did, I think, in a very logical, thoughtful way. So I....I think they followed the guidelines. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular formal meeting of April 17,2018. Page 21 Throgmorton: I think I'd say as well that Jessica clearly articulated the steps that she followed in preparing the information provided to the Commission, and the Commission was quite clear, uh, about the process it went through in coming to the decision it's made. It made. Uh, including agreeing to consider whether to provide an exception for this particular property. It's not clear to me they really had to do that,but they considered it and that's....worth noting. Anybo....anybody else have any views about this particular point that we have to determine? Thomas: Well I....I would agree with....with the, uh, comments that have been made. I think in terms of the Commission's actions were consistent, uh, with the guidelines, you know they did exercise their power and follow the guidelines, uh, and did not act either arbitrarily or capriciously (several talking) uh.....you know, it....there was clearly some misunderstanding prior to the Commission hearings, with respect to....reaching a mutual understanding, uh, and that's....that's regrettable. Uh, but in terms of the Commission's actions, I....I think they were, uh, following the guidelines that were established. Cole: I would agree, John. Throgmorton: Anybody else want to add anything to that? Botchway: I agree with comments made. Throgmorton: (several talking) All right, so let's turn to the second point that we have to determine, and that is whether the Commission's action was patently arbitrary or capricious, and a decision is arbitrary or capricious when it is made without regard to the law, or the facts of the case. I....I think it's pretty clear that the, uh, Commission attended to the law. So.....but the rest of you might disagree. So, if....if you agree,then would you.....would you say that the decision might have been arbitrary or capricious with regard to the facts of the case? Mims: No, I don't. Thomas: Yeah, I don't....I don't see any....any error there. In fact what...what seem.... what I did find interesting, and it was sort of reading through the material, that as we've discussed,the, uh, the building did pass the 50-year threshold, which when I was first reading the....the standards I thought, oh! Well that(laughs) that, isn't that the end of the story? Um.....but what....what seems to have happened is the....the staff, and the Commission, actually looked at this to a higher standard, This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular formal meeting of April 17, 2018. Page 22 and.....and looking at the house to make sure that it did meet....the criteria for preservation, urn, with respect to a mid-century house, uh, in making their decision. So there was that added layer to the evaluation, um,before their...they made their decision as to how to then proceed with the siding. Throgmorton: Anybody else have a view about this point? Botchway: I would agree, I mean I'm not gonna....I don't wanna discuss too much into this, but you know, again, I appreciate you providing a....kind of reminding us of our singular focus on this particular issue. I mean obviously there's some questions that I have, but does it....is it germane to the Commission and the guidelines, or whether or not they're arbitrary or capricious? No. So....I think that the Commission acted as....as they should. Throgmorton: Anyone else? (several talking) Maz? Salih: I just, uh, I would like just to say few things about this. You know, as a new Council Member, I admit that this is whole area of historic preservation is very new to me. Uh, I am learning about it, as fast as I can (laughs) Uh, I hope you will be patient with me in this kind of decision,but I would like to thank the City Attorney for the memo that explain what the Council's being called on that, you know, decide and what is standard of the review. We must use incoming decision. I have read her memo carefully, and I have read the other material in the package for our meeting this aft....you know, for this afternoon. I also appreciate the work that the Historic Preservation Commission and the staff have devote to consider, you know, the decision about this. For now I just gonna go with the decision of the, you know, the Historic Preservation Committee that, uh, because I really, I think that's right thing to do right now. Throgmorton: Any further discussion? Cole: Well I guess I would just like to briefly address the Leupolds directly. I think that you all presented, um, a rational, thoughtful discussion, um, on why you feel that, uh, aluminum or vinyl siding would be appropriate, and I think you presented some very compelling arguments. Um,however, um, you know,we go back to the standard. I think it'd be a closer call if we were called in the first instance to sort of make this determination. Um, I think this is a situation where two reasonable minds, I mean we heard two presentations, two thoughtful descriptions of, you know, trying to apply the standards, and I think two parties acting in total good faith, and so given the fact that we have the standard, in terms of what we're This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular formal meeting of April 17,2018. Page 23 called upon to review, I don't think that the Commission acted in a patently, you know, irrational way in terms of doing what they did. So I do think I'm gonna, I'm leaning towards upholding the Commission's vote, but that doesn't mean that you didn't present a very compelling case, um, but I just think in terms of what we're called to do, it's just not sufficient. Taylor: I agree with Rockne and....and I applaud you for....for wanting to maintain this home and the historic value of that, uh, that,uh, style from the 50s. Uh,not having the handbook in front of me, and knowing.....I think you'd mentioned, Mrs. Leupold, it's like 100-something pages long, very long, although you did mention one part of it that maybe Jessica or....or, uh, Ginalie could explain. You said 3.2 new technology that contributes to the preservation would be appropriate? But that's just like one small portion of it. The Commission looked at all the factors in the handbook that....that would,uh, qualify this home for siding versus not siding. Is that correct? Throgmorton: She's....she's nodding yes (both talking) Taylor: She's nodding yes, so okay! So I....I believe the Commission did follow,uh, what they were,uh, directed to do, as far as the guidelines. Throgmorton: Okay. We have a motion on the floor. Any further discussion? Hearing none, roll call please. And this is to affirm the decision of the Commission. Motion carries 7-0. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council regular formal meeting of April 17,2018.