HomeMy WebLinkAbout2018-07-17 Transcription Page 1
Council Present: Botchway, Cole, Mims, Taylor, Thomas,Throgmorton
Council Absent: Salih
Staff Present: Fruin, Monroe, Andrew, Dilkes, Voparil, Havel, Ralston, Sovers,
Bockenstedt
Others Present: Stewart(UISG)
Discuss SUDAS standards for road design fIP#4, IP#51:
Throgmorton/All right, so we're ready to begin our Council work session for Tuesday, July the
17s'. First topic is to discuss SUDAS standards for road design. Jason, are you gonna
take the lead on this?
Havel/I am!
Throgmorton/Hi, how are ya?
Havel/Good! Jason Havel, City Engineer. Um, I think just to kick things off here I wanted to
follow up, urn, obviously we had discussed this initially at the March 29...or May 29,
excuse me, work session, where we had presented, urn, various parameters that we were
looking at for, urn, design of future facilities and wanted to kind of give you an overview
of what we were looking at for our recommendations, as well as what those parameters
really were referring to. Urn, at that meeting, Council had asked for kind of a comparison
of the design manuals that are out there, so that's really what this table represents. Uh,
for full disclosure, this table that I'm showing here is slightly different than the one I'd
given you, and really all I've done is there was a couple that were a little wordy. I kinda
shortened those up and condensed 'em really just for size, to be able to actually read it,
uh, read what's in front of ya. So, um,just a highlight of kind of what's here. It really is
a comparison of kind of those items that are on the left side, looking at lane width, curb
off-set, clear zone, edge zone which again is kind of that same area there on the side of
the roadway, curb radius, design speed, on-street parking, the parkway width for street
trees, bike lane width, and sidewalks. And we're looking at a comparison of the, what I
would say is the four main design manuals that are out there. There were groups that, uh,
influence design of...of roadways, and that AASHTO, which is the American Association
of State Highway and Transportation Officials. Urn, they're the ones that have the green
books. That's really historically where....what a lot of design has been based off of.
Also there's ITE, which is the Institute of Transportation Engineers, and the....the desig
...the design guide that we would use from them was the Designing Walkable Urban
Thoroughfares, uh, a Context Sensitive Approach. The....another manual is NACTO,
and that's the National Association of City Transportation Officials, and we had used
their Urban Street Design Guide; and then finally SUDAS, which is the Statewide Urban
Design and Specifications, their design guide. Um, that kind of a...a comparison of
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what's out there for those manuals. Urn....I think you'll see what we've proposed was
really in line with all of those,urn, and I think recently those manuals have started to kind
of head in the same direction for design, urn,but a couple of things that I did want to
point out and just sort of stress before kind of turning it over to you for discussion of the
various items. One is to....I would strongly recommend that you allow for some
flexibility in whatever we decide to move forward with. Urn, obviously no two roadways
are the same, and....and I think we would all appreciate the ability to kind of have some
leeway there on future facilities and...and deciding what we want those to be and how we
specifically kind of allocate that right-of-way, urn, again I think in the future, down the
road, when we look at,urn, those designs, I think that will be helpful and I think a lot of
these designs would encourage that. Urn, the other thing is to not focus on....narrowing
everything up to the min....not necessarily narrowing it but basically going right to the
minimums for everything. Urn, a lot of the design guides point to that as a
recommendation that these are all kinda pieces of the puzzle. I....I think you're gonna
want to look at some of them. You may want to say minimums, whether that's lane
widths or, um, buffer areas or....or, urn, clear zones, whatever those might be, and then
maybe what you do is you look at rather than going the minimum you go a little wider or
a little longer or whatever on some of the other ones. Uh, one example might be if you
wanted to minimize, um, lane widths and curb radius. You could do that, but then maybe
you'd look at a wider buffer or a wider,urn.....turn lane or something like that,to allow
for, you know, heavier vehicles or....or other items,to....to use that space. So, those are
kinda the two things I just wanted to point out. Urn, with that, I will turn it over to you
guys for discussion and certainly be here for...for questions, unless anybody has anything
for me right now.
Throgmorton/Okay, folks, do you have any questions for Jason?
Botchway/Well thank you for puttin' this together.
Havel/Sure!
Botchway/Appreciate it.
Cole/Could you explain a little bit more the concept of a clear zone and an edge zone, what that
means?
Havel/Yep, and....and for the various....manuals, they....they look at it a little differently.
Historically clear zone, especially in the AASHTO one, that's kind of the...the area I
would say kind of...it's from the travel-way out. Um, so that may be from the edge line.
It may be from the line that separates the travel lane and the bike lane, but it's basically
that space that if a vehicle were to leave their lane, they would, urn,the clear zone is that
idea that that would be a clear area,that they leave their lane they're not going to hit
something and...and cause an accident or a crash in that area. Urn, I've kind of included
edge zone here because some of the manuals refer it more as an edge zone and it would
be the area that....focuses more on having those things,having that area there along the
back of curb for opening doors, or if you were to have a wide load and something may
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hang over a little bit over the edge line that you wouldn't have that restriction there. So
they're not so much...looking at it from the standpoint of vehicles leaving the road, but
more just a clear area to kind of have that space that is going to be used for multiple
purposes.
Fruin/ So, Jason, on the...in a clear zone, you're really lookin' at obstructions off the roadway,
where you're puttin' light poles, where you're puttin' trees, planters, things of that nature,
you just wanna make sure that if someone veers off, that they're not immediately striking
a light pole or a street tree, that there's enough buffer there for them to regain and....get
back on the....on the road.
Havel/ So I...I, exactly. So I...I think we're really looking at it as a way to kind of manage that
area behind the curb to....allow for certain things to be there but still have that area where
if somebody does, isn't paying attention and....and hits the curb and rides up on the curb
a little bit, they don't hit anything. Again, it doesn't have to be, you know, 10, 20, 30 feet
behind the back of curb, but there's at least that recovery area that....and it may not be,
you know, speeds may be low enough that it's not necessarily a....a severe accident or a
severe crash where there's a major injury, but there's still damage, there's still
maintenance, repairs that would have to happen with those items. So you're just kinda
looking for that, I guess that compromise to hopefully cut down on those incidents.
Thomas/Yeah I mean, urn, I have a copy here of the Walkable Street Design, you know, that was
generated out of Des Moines' MPO and urn, you know, they....they go through the same
comparison and, uh, with both the curb off-set and the clear zone. Um,with...with the
curb off-set, the ITE and NACTO viewed it as not applicable. I think, you know, their
concern is that it....it increases the effective lane width, uh, of...of the curb line basically,
to add the curb off-set, um....you know I'm looking at your...you know we have a
preferred and an...and an allowed, and the curb off-set does zero out, I mean and we...we
do know,um, I think one thing to keep in mind is the curb off-set wouldn't even apply.
If you have street parking or if you have a bike lane, it's not even a factor, because you're
already off-set in both cases. So there wouldn't be the curb off-set, correct? It's only in
those cases where we have the curb, or the curb up against the (both talking)
Havel/ ...travel lanes, immediately adjacent to the curb.
Thomas/Right.
Havel/Correct.
Thomas/Ur....I mean it seems to me, and I...I like, I'm really thankful and, you know, thank
you guys for....for moving the needle on the....on the lane widths. You know I think 10
and 11, in a sense the 11, is the 10 plus if we wanna keep the curb off-set, it's 10 plus 1,
so you end up at 11-feet.
Havel/ Sure. With the...respect to the curb off-set, one thing I wanna make sure and mention and
just for consideration, one thing we'll have to consider as well, that's also an area for
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storm water, especially during heavier rain events. If you narrow up your...your lanes,
and you don't have that space there between the curb and the actual travel lane,
potentially that would cut down on your travel....available travel area during heavy rain
events. Urn, one thing we could look at doing would be to stripe that area so it'd actually
have a lane stripe that would be at the, say it was 10-foot lanes with a....a 1 'V2-foot off-
set. You would have a 10-foot lane and then you would have a lane line, and then you
would basically have a foot between that lane line and the curb, and then the last 5-in...or,
uh, half a foot would be the actual curb. So that would be another option to potentially
compromise on that, but that would be the hesitation I would have. Not only, uh, storm
water but also snow storage and you know obviously when we do plow our streets, you
kinda have that first pass to get the lanes open and then you come in and clean it up, um,
along the curbs and that kind of stuff.
Thomas/Right. I guess my concern is if....if you, if we combine the curb off-set with an 11-foot
lane, then we're talking we're back into freeway width (both talking)
Havel/Yeah and I think really....what we were looking at with the lane width, the 11-foot width,
was really heavy vehicles or transit routes. I think those are really the ones you'll wanna
focus on for that 11-foot. So....I.....I don't know that we would have to say 11 is what
we're starting with. Basically we're saying we're starting with 10 and a foot and a half.
So that's really where our starting point would be. Now if we are having buses or heavy
vehicles, then we would look at going to 11-foot lanes. So, potentially you would have
those...but again, if we were to do that, I would....I would feel more comfortable going to
the....the zero, or....or no curb off-set if we did have the 11-foot lanes. So I....I think we
could (both talking)
Thomas/Right, I....I guess my concern is, you know, if we exceed the 11-feet, then
we're...we're into that territory where we're....we're incentivizing higher speeds, higher
than our... whatever we set the speed limit at. So that...that's where I'm....you know,
and I can, you know, again I agree with you. I think having flexibility is...is the way to
go, um....and in the end, you know, I....I think whatever these standards are, the key is
going to be looking at what are the outcomes, you know, that we're really carefully
looking at. What....what speeds we're seeing, whether we find them acceptable, um, you
know, where are the....where are the collisions occurring, doing an analysis of what
factors might be contributing to where we have corridors, where we have high collision
rates. Urn, that to me is ultimately(both talking)
Havel/ Sure!
Thomas/ ...all in agreement(laughs)we want to try to promote, you know, safety and comfort for
everyone, urn, so I'm....my only concern is if you, yeah, you add up some of these
variables, you could end up with.....lanes that....that could promote (both talking)
Havel/And what we could look at is having, you know, the....the 10-foot plus the 1 1/2-foot be
the starting point, and then you know....deviating from that would require justification so
that you're looking at those as a....
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Thomas/Right.
Havel/ ...sort of a certain context versus that being what we start with. That would certainly be
an option (both talking)
Thomas/Yeah, I mean the....the curb off-set does double as a wider lane, I mean that....you are
effectively increasing the lane width. So....
Havel/ I think that's where potentially striping it would be, again, I mean it's not a physical, uh,
barrier there but it would at least be some sort of indication to try and keep people in that
narrow area.
Thomas/Well we have that on north Dodge as I recall. We have some...some lines in the curb
lane, if I'm not mistaken.
Havel/I don't....
Fruin/I think we do on Sunset and....Benton,uh, Camp Cardinal...
Mims/Camp Cardinal does.
Fruin/We do use that on occasion.
Thomas/Yeah.
Havel/(mumbled) Camp Cardinal would be for....bike lanes, urn, but I....I think what we would
look at too is going narrower in those instances.
Thomas/Right.
Mims/I....I like the idea, and I think this is really important and I'm glad you started with it,
Jason, is the need for flexibility. Because as you said every....every situation is different
and I think looking at, you know, what are our transit routes, where do we tend to have
the....the heavier trucks, larger vehicles, that sort of thing, um, because, you know, when
either....even if we do or don't have bike lanes, and especially in places where maybe we
don't have bike lanes, I think we wanna be really careful that we're not going so narrow
that...there's no space for bikes, you know, and....and, especially...I....I would really hate
to see us do anything that is like 20-feet curb-to-curb. I mean I think that's getting so
narrow you're giving no people any room for error without ending up on the curb or
across the center line.
Throgmorton/Unless you have a speed limit of about 15 or something like that, where it's...the
idea is to have shared lanes, but I...I take your point. I'm not trying to disagree (both
talking)
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Mims/And so I...I really like the idea that, and....and I do, I think that curb off-set combined
with whatever flexibility we need on the lane width is important because I...I can't
remember where I was just within the past week and a half and we were having basically
a....a huge downpour, and I mean the water's just not getting off the street fast enough
and you're driving in pooled water, and so if you don't have any space to get out of that,
then you can have....I think you're more likely to have the accidents and stuff. Um, so
I...I think that flexibility, I agree. I think, you know, we've improved from where we
were when....like we did Lower Muscatine with like 15-foot lanes (laughs) or whatever.
So I think this is a huge improvement,but I do, I think that flexibility, to have the
professional staff have that flexibility as you're looking at the design and the usage of
those roads. Urn, the other things on here I'm pretty much in agreement, except the
speed, the design speed and speed limit, and I think when you look at, urn,these other...
you know, you look at AASHTO, when they talk about collectors, they're talking 30 or
higher,they're talking arterials 30 to 60. Obviously you've gotta have a pretty darn
major arterial and we're not gonna have that within city limits (laughs) that we're gonna
have 60-miles-an-hour. Um, you.....you know, the ITE is anywhere from 25 to 35. The
NACTO, they talk a 35 maximum, but they're up to 35. Um, and I find it interesting also
even under SUDAS, they talk about their design speed is greater than or equal to the
posted speed plus 5-miles-an-hour. So they're giving, you know, some leeway there,
saying basically....acknowledging the fact that people don't drive the speed limit
oftentimes, and so making sure it's designed for a little higher speed than what...than
what is posted. I've...over the last few weeks, I've made an effort to kind of mention this
to lots and lots of people as I've been out in the community, and I'll....and I'll tell you, I
have not come across a single person that believes we should have 25-mile-an-hour speed
limits on most of our arterial streets. They get it for Jefferson, or excuse me, for Dodge
and, um....Dodge and Governor,that are arterial but also you've got curb cuts
every....50 or 100 feet with all those residential, and so when they think about and look
at, um...uh, McCollister from the car dealerships over to old 218 is 45. From 218 to Sand
Road is 35, and you tell them that the Council's looking at making it 25 east of there.
They look at me like we're all crazy. Um, you know, the same thing we talk about Foster
Road or...or building out American Legion to city standards. What I am getting
consistently from people is.....arterials are meant to get people in their cars from point A
to point B in a reasonably efficient and yes safe manner, um, you're talking about in
general on arterial streets where you don't have a lot of curb cuts. We, and especially
where we don't have the development right now, we can give a lot of thought to how
many curb cuts we would allow and where we would allow them to promote that safety.
Um, I'm really concerned about that we actually make things less safe if you start putting
speed limits at a level that people are just not going to obey them. You're gonna have
people, and I've seen this, people passing people where they're not supposed to be
passing. Um, people are not going to obey it so then are we in a situation where we're
taking in incredibly expensive resource like the Police and sending them out there to
always be trying to enforce a speed limit which does not make sense to the general
public. So, I think we need to have flexibility on the design speed and the posted limit,
and I think depending on curb cuts and....and train issues and things like that, I think on
an awful lot of our arterials we should be looking at the 35.
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Havel/Along those same lines one thing I would mention to you and I think, uh,you probably
saw it in Kent's, uh, memo regarding the Langenberg area and we had met with those
neighbors. One thing that they had brought up is if you were to have McCollister as 25-
mile-an-hour and Langenberg is 25-mile-an-hour, I think there's some concerns from the
neighborhood that people won't go further out of their way to use McCollister. Instead
would use, continue to use Langenberg.
Throgmorton/I suspect they're hypothesizing based on their past experience....
Havel/ Sure!
Throgmorton/ ....not knowing what the new neighborhood is going to look like and feel like. So
we don't know....what they would actually do anymore than we know what we would
actually do.
Mims/ (both talking) Yeah but common sense tells you that if the speed limit's the same and the
distance is longer, most people are not gonna go a longer distance at the same speed limit.
I mean I....I, so I think they're....I think they've got a very reasonable hypothesis.No we
don't have proof, but I think it's a reasonable hypothesis.
Taylor/But we're putting stop signs and there are some speed humps now on Langenberg and I
would think that you would choose to do the straightforward route rather than go that
sideway on Langenberg and living on the west side, we have primarily only two major
arterials, uh, Benton and Melrose going east and west, and those are both 25 and in fact
for a large part of Benton it's 20 because of the School District and....
Mims/Melrose is 35 into the University(both talking)
Taylor/No, it's 25 from the Hospital to the point where....which people are well known fact
that, uh, University Heights very closely monitors that. It's a well known fact, but then
as soon as you get to the four lane in Iowa City limits it's....it's 35, but that's a four lane,
not the two lane (mumbled) outside the Hospital and through University Heights, it is 25
and that's primarily Benton, and then Sunset is also 25. That's a major north-south, uh,
route and there....there had been difficulty on Teg Drive with speeders and they put
speed humps in and lowered the speed and folks do not cut through there any longer. Uh,
they're very cautious on that and....and all I can say is shame on those people. I'm sorry,
but shame on those people who, uh, don't(several talking) I'm sorry! I'm sorry,
Kingsley, but that...that don't drive the speed limit, don't use their turn signals, don't
maintain a safe distance, and hurrah to those who are safe drivers and...and I just don't
think we should,uh, be basing our decisions on that because it's a safety issue. (several
talking)
Mims/But a number of those arterials you're mentioning also are the ones that have a high
volume, a high number of curb cuts. So when you talk about Melrose, you know, a...
around the Hospital and to University Heights, you've got driveways every....30 to 50
feet along there, across from the Hospital.
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Taylor/Which is exactly why, uh, you mentioned the McCollister, uh(mumbled) from the car
dealer up to the highway there.....being high speed. There are, there are very few curb
cuts. There's the Airport and there's farmland. There's...there's very little to interfere
with (both talking)
Mims/But my point, Pauline, is is what we have told staff so far is that every single, every single
collector and arterial is to be designed and built to a 25-mile-an-hour speed limit. That's
the (several talking) No, let me finish please! That's the conversation we've had. So my
point is it's just as Jason asked for us to give them flexibility (several talking) I believe
that we need to give them flexibility in speed limits, and I think when we...just for
example, when we design and look at the extension of McCollister, in order to actually
have that function as a....as a good arterial street, I think we need to make it very clear to
the property owners,both north and south of there, that there are going to be limited
access points onto McCollister Boulevard. Just like we've said there's going to be
limited access points onto Taft Avenue. I ride my bike, I'm on Scott Boulevard, on the
sidewalks, the wide trails. Cars are going on Scott Boulevard at 35-miles-an-hour, very
efficiently, very safely, I mean I don't see any problem with that. I was driving on
Mormon Trek the other day, 35-miles-an-hour. Um,you know, I don't see, again, I think
you have to look at what is...what are the various conditions and particularly as we build
more arterial streets, if we want to actually move cars, and if you don't you're just
gonna....people are not gonna want to be in Iowa City, um, we have to make sure that
people can get from point A to point B in a reasonably efficient manner, and so we need
to design the development on the sides of those arterials in a manner that limits their
access to the arterials in....in a(several talking)
Throgmorton/I think there's a legitimate debate about this, and it's interesting to hear you both
articulate key elements of that debate. Uh, one thing I think about is something I've
mentioned several times before in various meetings is the interaction between street
design, roadway design, and the land development....devel....the design of the
neighborhood....in which the new roads would be embedded. So, when we talk about
arterials, that's connected with a certain way of thinking about development, and that is
that there should be collectors that feed traffic to arterials, and then on the arterials people
drive more rapidly and then those roads tend to get congested over time. Alternatively,
a...a way of thinking about development is to have multiple often grid pattern
development for neighborhoods, so that there are multiple routes for getting from point A
to point B, not just driving on a collector to...uh, an arterial and then speeding along the
arterial. Those are two very different images of how to do things. So it's the intersection
of street or roadway design and land development design that I think about. So let....let
me make another, uh, few points here, uh,just to respond to what you've put together for
us, Jason. First of all, thank you for putting together the table, and if I read it correctly,
it....it seems like, uh, staff is recommending a local standard that is pretty close to
NACTO's, though I heard what you said about how it fits within each of the others, but
the tendency, it looks to me, like it's closer to NACTO's and if, yeah I can see
(mumbled) not fully agreeing.
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Havel/I wouldn't say it's entirely NACTO (both talking) I would say that it's in line with a lot
of what NACTO recommends.
Throgmorton/Yeah, so I think it's good, the tendency is good. I mean I want to acknowledge
that and thank you for, uh, you know, puttin' the table together and making, uh,the
preferred and allowed recommendation. I don't feel comfortable tryin' to....uh, make
decisions about the details, you know, all the numbers in each of these, uh....matrix
boxes (laughs) This is not for...for me or you or(several talking) to do, uh, what I do feel
comfortable in doing is being as clear as we can be about what our policy is so that you
and other staff members can come up with the numbers that are consistent with the
policy, and I think that does involve judgment and flexibility. I think it...it has to in the
end. So I wanna be clear about that. In terms of my own thinking about policy, I wanna
make sure that the streets we design are safer by design....and enhance a more walkable
streetscape, by design, and by walkable I mean, uh, a streetscape that one would want to
be walking along, instead of feeling that you're endangered in some fashion by cars
going by or trucks going by at 35, 40, 45-miles-an-hour. Uh, now I totally accept that
there're exceptions and judgment needs to be applied, but...and so when I think about all
this in relation to the area around Alexander Elementary, I think we have a great
opportunity to develop a neighborhood, and apply a set of roadway design standards that
will....be mutually reinforcing the....the neighborhood and the roadway designs will
enhance one another, and create....in the end, create a more walkable, interesting, lively,
and attractive neighborhood down there. So, that's what I seek, and then I wanna make
one other point,uh, the Peninsula neighborhood seems to be tremendously successful
now. Its streets are very narrow. I don't know what the width of the roadway is, but I do
know if cars are parking along one side, two cars cannot pass by one another. And that's
by design. It's...and the speed limit, I think, is 15-miles-an-hour out there, and it's
because they wanna make sure people can walk on the streets. They can ride their bikes
on the street, and people can feel like it's their neighborhood instead of a place for cars to
park and drive.....full stop. So, I...I think we just...that sort of is an indicator the kind of
neighborhood I personally have in mind, or at least a neighborhood in that general
direction, uh, for the Alexander, uh, Elementary School neighborhood, and maybe for
other parts of the city in the future. So...I....I'm glad with....about what you put together.
(several talking)
Thomas/Let me....let me just, urn, on this question of design speed. I think the....the, what...
what is being proposed, um, should be looking more at the alignment of the posted speed
limit with the design standards. That to me is the issue.
Havel/And I...I think....that doesn't show up on the table, but that was the intent, that(both
talking)
Thomas/So....so in other words, in other words (laughs) there are streets, and I think, um, Scott
Boulevard is a good example, which is posted at 35. I'm not arguing, I would never
argue that Scott Boulevard should be posted at 25. The....the issue that has come up on
some of these newer roads, uh, why I've personally felt the 25-per-hour speed limit was
necessary was because of the integrated bike lanes in the roadway. That...that was the
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issue. Uh, if....if....if we're talking about a trail, separate from the roadway, then that's a
different.....scenario. That's a different road type. So....so the, I don't think we want to
be proposing under design speed preferred and allowed. The speed is going to float. The
actual speed limit is going to float. The....the issue is are we aligning the design with the
posted speed limit, and SUDAS says you (laughs) you actually design it to a speed 5-
miles-over the speed limit. That....that to me is an issue. But...
Havel/But it does allow for them to be the same. Itit allows for posted and (both talking)
Thomas/ ...but NACTO is saying align them, don't right?
Havel/Yep!
Thomas/So...so I think....I, Susan, I think we're....the issue is not....um, you know, the....the
issue is not as...as stated in this matrix. So....
Mims/I feel better hearing what you're saying.
Thomas/Yeah, so (both talking) the issues, again, if we....if we're introducing, if we're
integrating bikes onto the street and that, you know, I looked at the new NACTO
standards and it said if...if you, if the speeds are over 25, you know, they highly
recommend a protected bike lane, and in no instance were we recommending a protected
bike lane. If we were, then again, that's a different story. You know, the bicyclist is
more protected,therefore the speeds....we we could consider higher speeds, but....but
in my view, one of the issues on Scott is, I mean those are 15-foot lanes. You know,
where.... we seem to, and unfortunately we're not doing an integrated bike lane on Scott
(laughs) so....so we have a problem. We have 15-foot wide lanes and I don't see any,
you know, that...that's a difficult thing to remedy, because it's 30-feet from curb-to-curb,
and so we do have in my view issues that that generates where we have cross traffic and
where we are, you know, situations where, if you're living in the Sunrise Village, and
you have a child trying to walk across the street to get maybe over to Mercer,that they've
gotta cross traffic, which could because of the design standards, you could have speeds of
easily 50-miles-an-hour on....on Scott Boulevard.
Throgmorton/(several talking) Okay, I'm wondering if other people have things to say. I didn't
mean to cut ya off but make sure other people can speak as well.
Taylor/ I just wanna make a quick comment. Uh, I appreciate all the data because I'm obviously
not urban, regional planning background, healthcare background, hence the safety of the
speeds,but in relation to speeds, I was wondering if we would ever take into
consideration like law enforcement's opinion on that, on what they think would be a safe
speed.
Havel/And I can't speak for them. I mean obviously you're gonna have the data that's out
there...
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Taylor/Right.
Havel/ ....based speed versus severity of crashes. Urn, I'm guessin' they would also want to
make sure that we're not....trying to force a speed lower than what people are actually
going to....just due to the need for enforcement or...or whatever that might be, so again,
I....I can't speak for them, but I'm guessing that those are two points that would come
up.
Cole/Two things, urn, or three things. I would just like to leave it as is. I think that you did a
wonderful job of trying to incorporate what our feedback was before. Urn, to the
relationship between second, the relationship between speed and safety, I'm aware of a
ton of studies that show that the lower the speed the safer the street. I'm aware of no...
no studies that says that that poses a risk, I mean so that would be one of these questions.
I don't dispute that they couldn't be out there, urn, but if anyone does have any studies
that suggest that slower speeds will increase the risk, I think we should....we should get
those studies and....and, urn, talk about those. The third point is in terms of the policy,
the political issue since at least I've been on Council, we've received numer...numerous
requests to lower speeds, through speed bumps, through traffic calming, urn, through
various methods, and in fact, relating to Scott Boulevard, actually there was a very robust
exchange the other night on Facebook, where we were actually talking about Scott
Boulevard, and a lot of people were complaining about how fast that is, and I know as a
biker on Scott Boulevard, it's hard to cross in some....in some locations,um, when
you're trying to go over onto the northeast side. So at least feedback I've gotten has been
nearly just the opposite that you have, and that....that happens as politics, there's
different constituencies. Um, so I'm pleased with what the staff has done. I would like
to keep where we are, urn, and I think 25 is gonna get us where we need to go in terms of
safe streets.
Mims/ I would just make one last comment. Jim, I appreciate your comments on road design,
but it....I....I tend to look at those as....neighborhood designs when you talk about the
grid patterns so you can get some place multiple ways. But you still have the issue that
people have to get out of the neighborhoods and get to other parts of the community, and
that takes arterial streets, and it takes streets that can accommodate larger volumes of
traffic and again, to do it efficiently, urn, you know, at...at somewhat higher speeds than
the 20 to 25-miles-an-hour that...that we have in our....in our neighborhoods. I mean I
wouldn't want somebody driving my....down my street at 35 or 40-miles-an-hour. Urn,
so I....so I do think, even if we do a better job of our street design within our
neighborhoods with the kinds of grids, you're not gonna get people going from one side
of town to the other where they have to hit a stop sign every two blocks as you, you
know, alternate, you know, how you....how you do your traffic control with the....with
the grid system. So I don't think we're ever gonna get away from arterial streets. I think
that's....whenever you have a....a vehicle-centric society, which we do,no matter how
much we also wanna make it walkable, we have a vehicle-centric society and I think
when you stop and talk to people who have to drive to and from work every day, um,
have to drive for work every day, have to drive to and from their kid's school, their kid's
activities, etc., it is very important for them to be able to get places in both a safe and
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relatively efficient manner, and so when you put all those different pieces together, I
think we have to have arterial streets. I think they need to be well designed, and I think
we need to try and limit access points on them, and I think we need to have, in most
cases, speed limits higher than 25-miles-an-hour.
Throgmorton/(several talking) Go ahead!
Botchway/So I'll just briefly say, you know, I think we should just put it to public measure,
Eleanor. Just throw it out there for the public to decide. I mean ultimately I...I'm not
sure. I'm living, I've been living in a different city. I've never seen people drive super-
fast speeds. I think there's been some calming areas around like the Horace Mann
neighborhood that has drastically changed traffic. I would say I drive on Scott Boulevard
almost every single day and I want....I mean if you can tell me where the traffic is 45,
I've been actively seeking that, because I feel like people in Iowa City drive slow,just in
general. I mean(mumbled) conversation about being upset how people are driving so
slow. Ultimately I think I'm....I'm, I mean, all jokes aside in a sense cause I think I was
really being serious,um, I'm comfortable with, uh, what you proposed, except, again, for
the design speeds. I...I would agree with the kind of hybrid....Jim's talking about. I
mean ultimately I would agree that I'm not looking for, you know, neighborhood traffic
to be 30, 40, 45. I think I do think that, I mean, it's even less than 25, and so ultimately
to Jim's point, the street design, um, should speak to the target speed, and so if we're
talking about a neighborhood and we're building a design, or the street designs for a
particular neighborhood, I would expect, I mean from a policy standpoint cause I don't
think we're gonna sit here and tell you what numbers should be, or we shouldn't tell you
what numbers should be, um,but from a policy standpoint,then that should be a slower
speed and the street should be designed in that way. I mean I....you can't go down
Friendship, or I guess some people do but....in that sense, but when I say some people I
mean me, like you know at a high....high, urn, speed limit, and so to that extent, you
know, I would agree from an arterial standpoint. I mean we're talking about, you know,
Mormon Trek close to McDonald's and we're talking about Highway 1, I mean that's not
necessarily in the conversation,but those places I feel like need to be a certain speed to
get traffic moving. Um, and I think....but I do think that, you know, the design will
change. I think Mormon Trek,with the changes that are being made, I don't necessarily
agree with them but the changes are being made, will slow down traffic, without a change
to a 25-mile-an-hour speed limit. So I....I would agree with Jim as far as...from a
flexibility standpoint. If there was something we could do, assuming you're going to take
these proposed guidelines, I hear from you know....Jim and John that we can move
maybe the NACTO over into the design piece. Maybe I'm not hearing you right. Maybe
the NACTO guidance over into the design speed, or are you saying you're comfortable
with(both talking)
Tluogmorton/I....I said....what I look at the table, when I read it, I sense that the staff is making
a recommendation that is more in line with NACTO than where we were before or where
we are right now. And I think that's a good shift. That's what I was saying.
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Botchway/Oh,okay. So....to that extent, I mean my proposal would be then, you know, maybe
shifting the NACTO requirements, um, over for design speed, because I do agree. I mean
street design, I think ultimately, uh, needs to speak to the target speed, and I think arterial
streets are designed differently than, um, streets within neighborhoods, and the speed
limit should speak to that. So that's what I would propose as far as, you know, any type
of change I see with what you propose here today.
Havel/One thing I would add too. I think the way we envision this going is....35-mile-an-hour
design and for what this would be, would be different than 35-mile-an-hour on Scott
Boulevard. I mean we're not going to end up with 15-foot lanes. So hopefully instead of
people going 35, they're going 36....36 instead of right now, you know, where there
(both talking)
Throgmorton/ (mumbled)
Havel/ Yeah, 35 and they're going 42, so hopefully it's just aligning those more with what we
are posted for them to go.
Throgmorton/Yeah, that's the kind of thing I believe we want to see. Yeah. (several
responding)
Thomas/Yeah, that....as I said, I think....I hope I made that clear, that the design speed, in my
mind, actually I'm....I've been advocating for less than 25 in many neighborhoods where
we...where we can accomplish that, and I'm not....I'm not (laughs) saying we shouldn't
have 30-mile-per-hour, or 35-mile-per-hour speeds, uh, but it has to be evaluated in the...
in this context of our, you know, do we have....are we accommodating bicycles on those
streets, and if so where, and all of those things have to factor into the speeds.
Havel/And part of that too would be, you know, we show here a 10-foot lane....or a 10-foot
sidewalk on one side on arterials that came out of the bicycle master plan, so I think part
of it is we're also providing better options for people, whether it's 10-foot side...uh,
sidewalk or, uh,the buffered bike lanes, I think there's options for people depending on
what they want to do. Um, so....I guess with that it seems like maybe pushing the
NACTO design speed over is the direction people are....are comfortable with, with
obviously the posted speed and design speed bein' the same.
Thomas/Right, that....that to me is....is what design speed,that particular criterion is....is all
about is how is it tying posted speed with design speed.
Havel/ Sure!
Botchway/ I would just say, Kent, when you're doin' traffic counts, please stop,you know,
countin' my car. I feel like it skews the data too far and then we have these conversations
when we don't need to.
Throgmorton/How many times can your car be counted?
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Botchway/A lot! (laughter)
Throgmorton/Yeah, I that's right.
Mims/And I think, you know, even with the NACTO, I....I want to see staff have flexibility.
I'm, and I have nothing in mind at the moment where we would have a new arterial that
we would want speeds over 35. Urn,but if for some reason we did, that it really is in the
middle of nowhere and we're not trying to....particularly if we're not trying to
accommodate bike traffic on there because we've got wide trails or whatever, I would
want staff to have that kind of flexibility. Urn, again I....I don't necessarily see that
happening in the near future but, um....or at least I would want to have staff come back
to us and say, hey, this, you know, we see reason to deviate from this.
Throgmorton/I'm reading the NACTO speed....col....uh, box....
Havel/Yep!
Throgmorton/(both talking) ....again. So I notice the last line in it it says 30-miles-per-hour
max, collector local. Yeah, so I....
Havel/ I would probably propose that local would stay 25. (several responding)
Throgmorton/(mumbled)
Havel/ ...to kind of go maybe 25, 30, 35.
Throgmorton/Yeah. All right.
Mims/(both talking) ...idea of where we're at! (laughs)
Throgmorton/Okay. Thank you, Jason.
Havel/Sure!
Mims/Thanks!
Clarification of Agenda Items:
Throgmorton/Oh we have probably five minutes or so. We could get into clarification of
agenda items. So.....does anybody need clarification?
Taylor/(mumbled) ...correspondence
Throgmorton/(both talking) What about correspondence?
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Item 3f. Correspondence: Item 3f(1) Harry Olmstead, Housing & Community
Development Commission: Johnson County SEATS and Iowa City Transit
Contracts Item 3f(2) Rafael Morataya: Local public transportation services Item
3f(3) Leah Zapf Donald: transportation needs in JC—letter attached
Taylor/Does that include talking about that? (several talking) Yeah, urn, under
Correspondence, the, uh, 3f(2)....(1), (2), and (3), all three of them were letters regarding,
uh, transportation needs in Iowa City, and uh, with all due respect to Council, uh, woman
Salih, um, her budget proposal for the transit system, I believed at the time that, um, it's
usually not wise to spend larger amounts of money on something without really thinking
it through and knowing your exact needs, which is why I proposed, uh, that we have a
consultant to come in, uh, to determine where exactly we need to improve our
transportation options, uh, keeping in mind all the challenges and barriers, but, uh,
because of that and because of the correspondence, I did have a couple of questions. One
of the letters mentioned a timeline of two to three years and I hope not, I hope that's not it
cause I....I know for the last few years we've been talking about this as a need. So I
• would hope it wouldn't take that long and secondly, would it include, urn, the SEATS
transportation system.
Fruin/Urn, two to three years, no. It would not take two to three years. Uh, we're drafting the
RFQ now, uh, from there we would want to get buy-in from the University and
Coralville, who have expressed an interest. We'd want you to see that RFQ to make sure
we're....we're accurately describing the services that we want from a consultant. We'd
have the consultant selection, ul....ultimately you would approve the contract as would
any other participating governments. So you're probably lookin' at fall, getting into early
winter, um, when we....when we get through that piece of it. And then the best we can
guess right now is a 12....12-month study. Urn, it depends on how robust the public
input is and....and until we can really engage with a consultant, it....we don't know, but
I'm guessin' 12 months, and then....if you're gonna talk about restructuring routes,that's
not something you can do overnight. You have to plan for all that, and there's...there's
certainly a ramp-up period,but two to three years seems excessive. The second question
was on SEATS. Uh, we can look at different SEATS scenarios. Generally speaking the
SEATS service, uh, area grows and shrinks with the fixed bus routes. So that's what the
federal requirements are. We have to provide SEATS service to those same areas as
we're providing fixed, uh, route service, and the hours would be the same. If we're
gonna provide fixed bus route hours on Sunday, we have to provide SEATS service on
Sunday. So....unless you want something different, uh, from SEATS, you can just
expect that it's gonna mirror the fixed route, um, system that we develop.
Taylor/Good! Thank you.
Cole/Relating to that point, I'm wondering though. We....we, and I....and I would agree with
you, Pauline, in terms of I would like to get the study first before we talk about
committing potentially 800 to $900,000 in terms of adding Sunday service,but that
said....if there are some interim solutions, because I am very aware of the....the issues on
Sundays. Um, would it be worthwhile to do a work session to discuss some possible
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interim solutions, urn, relating to Sunday transportation? I mean we have that
transportation commission, um....I would at least explore that, you know, whether it's,
uh, you know, subsidizing taxis on Sunday or whatever. I'm just speakin' off the top of
my head,but I would like to get a work session on that. I know we have a lot of issues on
the work session agenda, urn, but I think that that would be, urn,very fruitful. It has been
an issue that's been identified, urn, I think none of us are really opposed to the concept of
Sunday bus service,but I think we have some concerns about the sticker shock, prior to
the study. What do people think about that, in terms of a work session for some interim
solutions?
Throgmorton/We could do that. I don't have any objection to putting it on our pending list. Uh,
we used to have Sunday service, did we not? There was a, what was it five years ago,
Susan, that we changed....or.....
Mims/I don't think we've had Sunday service since I've been on Council (several talking)
Throgmorton/We had a big debate anyhow about five years ago (several talking) and uh....and
the cost of Sunday service....I don't remember the details. It's too long ago (laughs) now
but....
Mims/ I....
Botchway/I do remember that.
Mims/Conversation, but I don't believe we've had....we haven't had Sunday service since I
came on the Council in 2010. We haven't but it since I've been on, I know that.
Fruin/ Yeah, I don't recall (several talking)
Throgmorton/Well, it....it would be helpful for us to know, have a summary of what our prior
debate was, what decision we made, why we made it.
Botchway/There was like a cost estimate, I mean I remember...
Throgmorton/Yeah, for sure.
Botchway/ ...I remember that piece.
Fruin/Two contracts ago with the County, when the(both talking)
Mims/ ....with the County.
Fruin/ ...cost went up really high and we had to evaluate, uh, there were some service level cuts.
I don't recall exactly what those were but....
Throgmorton/Yeah, I do remember service level cuts in it because I got a lot of heat over that.
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Fruin/ Correct. It could be that we were operating some Sunday SEATS service. I don't think
we've done fixed route since I....for a long time on Sundays.
Throgmorton/Yeah, I'm sorry, I was referring to SEATS (several talking) Okay, I'm lookin' at
the time, it's 20 till. We probably should stop there, I think, and come back, if other
people have....well.....
Fruin/Was there (several talking)
Cole/ ...or two, one more?
Throgmorton/Yeah, I'm comfortable. Is there four(several talking) puttin' it on our pending list
of work session topics?
Taylor/Well I think Susan had even, uh, mentioned it at one time maybe, some taxicab (both
talking)
Mims/ ....work session but(both talking)
Taylor/That's a possibility, yeah.
Mims/(both talking)
Fruin/ Could we combine that with the review of the RFQ and....and you can have that
discussion. This is okay for the study and then....Items a, b, and c we can look at parallel
with the study. (several talking)
Cole/ ...hoping the advocates will reach out to us with some possible suggestions as well as we
consider that particular issue.
Throgmorton/Okay,uh, is there anything else anybody really needs to ask a question about
concerning the agenda? Okay, if not let's....adjourn our work session to after our formal
meeting. Yeah? (BREAK)
Information Packet Discussion (July 5, July 121:
Throgmorton/I think we can turn to the information packet discussion, July 5 packet. We could
begin there.
Taylor/ IP2, um, memo from Simon regarding the racial and socio-economic review toolkit, not
to steal any of your thunder there, uh, Kingsley,but thank you, Simon, for this,uh,
information. Um, I....
Throgmorton/(both talking) Stefanie.
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Taylor/Oh, it was Stef...(several talking) Well, Simon, via Stefanie, right, the information with
Stefanie,right. Urn, cause Iowa City strives to be a welcoming, inclusive community for
all persons with diverse backgrounds and this memo just shows what our city
departments and staff are doing, or will be doing, for Iowa City, uh, to indeed advance,
uh, social justice and racial equity for our community, and so thank you to all those staff
members for going through this process.
Throgmorton/Yeah, Kingsley, you can take a little bit of credit for this.
Botchway/Well I mean I echo....I echo Pauline's comments, I mean I'm excited to see the new
departments but ultimately, uh, really excited to see the old departments coming back and
sharing that information. So, kudos to Stefanie, kudos to all the staff that are, you know,
changing the practices, and it's not easy to do, and so you know, as a....as a unique
guinea pig in Iowa City, urn, in Iowa as a whole, you know, great work.
Mims/And I think, you know, when you first brought up this...this racial, socio-economic
toolkit, I think it was....really hard for a lot of us, myself included,to really understand
what it meant and kind of the nuts and bolts and practicality of....of how it would benefit
us and how, you know, how it would be implemented and how it would be done
and....and the more we get into this and see these memos and kind of get the nitty gritty
of what the departments are doing, it makes it much clearer, I think, to all of us, again
myself included, about what the benefit of this is and....and some of the changes it could
mean in terms of practices. So,urn, thank you for bringing the idea back to us and
pushing us to....to start doing it. I know it's certainly at times been a challenge for staff.
You know, the Police Department at one point said they in a way wish they weren't the
first guinea pig. They were trying to do it with bringing a new chief on board and...and
all kinds of other stuff, but um, I....I think we're gonna see a lot of benefits from it, so....
Throgmorton/Anything else about the July 5 packet? Uh, okay, July 12.
Taylor/IP16, the email from the DOT, the I-80 planning study, July 24th in Des Moines. I just
wondered if anyone was planning to go to that?
Botchway/That's all you, Pauline!
Taylor/Not me! (laughs) Besides me! (laughs)
Botchway/Rockne?
Cole/Nope.
Mims/Des Moines, no thanks!
Botchway/Jim?
Throgmorton/No (several talking)
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Cole/Kingsley can go. (several talking and laughing) We'll specially appoint you!
Botchway/ (mumbled)
Taylor/Okay,just wondered....since we've expressed concerns about it and....
Throgmorton/Yeah, I...I can't go, so
Taylor/I won't be able to either.
Throgmorton/ Okay, any other items on the July 12`s packet?
Mims/ (mumbled) appreciate the City Manager's, uh....IP7, and in terms of some of the tax, uh,
programs that some cities and states have done, including Iowa....and made the list with
the Apple project of just really needing to look at things differently in terms of trying to,
um, either entice companies here or just focus differently on smaller....companies that...
that really do have the long-term benefits. There was one in there that really caught my
eye that they put so much money into and it like lasted five years.
Throgmorton/Yeah, that was in (several talking)
Mims/Yeah, and so really, you know, making sure that when we're giving these companies
these tax breaks and stuff that we really are....are getting a worthwhile benefit back for
the tax dollars. So, it was nice to see that.
Thomas/I have a....on IP6, the pending work session topics. Um, some months ago I happened
to kind of just by happenstance, uh, I was watching a video on traffic safety that was, uh
(several talking and laughing) Okay, so I was watching a video on traffic safety from
Ireland (laughter) and uh (several talking and laughing) the speaker, uh, brought up a
professor at the University of Iowa, uh, Judy....Jodie Plumert, uh, she's a professor in
the, uh, School of Psychology, and he was referencing her work because she does
research on the interface of child psychology, cognitive dev,uh, development and traffic
safety. So that, I thought my goodness, she's right....right here at home, uh, being
referenced in Europe. So I....I contacted Jodie and, uh, introduced myself and, you
know, she....expressed my interest in...in this question of traffic safety and so I met with
her and one of her colleagues and I was really intrigued by her work, uh, I thought it
would benefit not only Council but, uh, the community to....to hear what she is doing in
terms of her research and I asked if she would be interested in, you know, making a
relatively short presentation at a upcoming work session. She said she would be happy to
do that. So I....I wanted to, um, bring this up with you to see if....if you would support
bringing her, uh, into this conversation we're having about traffic safety from the
standpoint of her research intohow children interface with....with road safety, uh, and
the research that she's doing on that.
Cole/ I would support that.
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Throgmorton/Yeah....
Taylor/ I would too.
Throgmorton/We actually have a surprising short list of...of work session topics, so we need to
add to it (laughter) Yeah.
Thomas/It seemed like a good night to bring it up because we had, you know,just been talking
about the design standards and, uh, she does bring, I think, a uh....you know, a unique
perspective because she's really been looking at....at the experience of a, you know, a
vulnerable segment of our population, namely children, in terms of...of how they
experience, uh, you know, being out on the street and....and interacting with, uh, with
traffic. She's also done work with bicycling as well, so....
Throgmorton/ She would need some guidance about how long....
Thomas/Right.
Throgmorton/...expect to speak because, you know, if you're a professor, you're used to long
things and short things, but you need to know. So what are you imagining?
Thomas/In terms of time....a timeframe or....
Throgmorton/Yeah.
Thomas/I would think 20 minutes probably.
Throgmorton/Sounds reasonable to me. This is one of your last decisions.
Botchway/I'm okay not making a decision on this one (laughter)
Throgmorton/All right, could we add that?
Fruin/Yeah. I think there's an opportunity to combine it. One of your strategic plan items is to,
is for staff to do a comprehensive traffic analysis and look at crashes and then develop an
action plan from that, and we're pretty close to having the accident data compiled and
some initial recommendations forward. So we might be able to pair that, those two
together on a single work session. I think that'd go well together.
Council updates on assigned boards, commissions and committees:
Throgmorton/Anything else? On that information packet? All right, I'm not hearing anything
else so the last would be Council updates on assigned boards, commissions, committees,
and so on. So, Pauline, maybe start with you and move to the left?
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Taylor/I don't have anything.
Throgmorton/Oop! Nothing there.
Mims/I don't know if people saw it, it was in the media I think late last week that the County
has purchased property for the Access Center. So we are moving forward, um, in terms
of some of the sub-committee, um, performa and some things like that, trying to kind of
firm up where we're gonna start with services and the kind of staffing that we would need
and the....and the budget that would go along with that. Um, also working with
attorneys, uh, both at the County and the University, uh, to start with, and I'm sure we'll
have Eleanor and her staff involved at some point as well, with the 28E agreements and,
urn agreements between, uh, coming up with a managing entity. We're exploring who
that might be. I believe at least one of the articles indicated that it was going to be the
University of Iowa Emergency Room and that is not true. Um, they have declined. We
are, uh, looking at some other possible entities who would take on that management
responsibility. So that's being done now. And, urn, but then the....the other agreements
that need to be, urn, drafted, which have a lot to do with medical practice, and so, uh, one
of the attorneys over at the University is graciously I think helping with some of that,just
because of his expertise, um, and so obviously that'll be reviewed by the other pertinent
attorneys that need to....need to be involved with that. So, really exciting, uh, the
property is down basically on Southgate, um, some of the first work will be bringing in
fill because it is within the 100-year flood plain, so we'll be raising that up to be at least
one foot above 100-year flood plain. Um, I threw out the idea of, depending on the cost,
maybe even going a little bit higher, uh,just for safety sake. So we'll be taking a look at
that,but exciting that we are, um, starting to get some concrete steps. So....
Taylor/Also along with that, urn, I was pleased to learn at the entities meeting, the joint entities
meeting,that they've hired a director to kind of help coordinate all these things so (both
talking)
Mims/And that...that person, Matt Miller, who's been hired has only been hired, um, through
this process. He has...we....we don't have like a director of operations once it opens.
Taylor/Right.
Mims/ So he is just...for the project (both talking) We especially needed it after, uh, Jessica left.
Taylor/Right!
Mims/Uh, cause she had been coordinating so much of the stuff, so when she....Jail
Alternatives, Jessica (several talking) Peckover, thank you, blanking on that. So when
Jessica Peckover left, urn, we really needed a fill-time staff person to help with that, so
Matt Miller has been hired and, um, is great to have somebody full time to really do a lot
of the coordinating. So (mumbled)
Throgmorton/John?
This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council work
session of July 17, 2018.
Page 22
Thomas/Oh, sorry, nothing.
Cole/Nothing.
Botchway/Nothin'!
Taylor/ I wanted to add, cause we'd gotten the memo (several talking) I'm sorry! Can I (laughs)
I just wanted to, it just was briefly touched on when you mentioned about the diversity
and hiring women, about LaTasha, and I'd like to thank Ashley for her, uh, guidance for
the Senior Center in the interim, and then congratulations to LaTasha, uh....uh, to, uh,
being appointed to the position and look forward to working with her! Cause I am a
member of the Senior Center and....and, uh, hope to see it thrive.
Throgmorton/All right, I have nothing. I think, uh, that means we are done...with our work
session. Thank you everybody.
This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council work
session of July 17, 2018.