HomeMy WebLinkAbout2018-12-18 Transcriptions Page I
Council Present: Cole, Mims, Salih, Teague, Taylor, Thomas, Throgmorton
Staff Present: Frain, Monroe, Andrew, Dilkes, Fruehling, Motherly, Knoche, Ford,
Bockenstedt, Bowers, Rackis, Havel, Hightshoe, Kubly
Others Present: Stewart(UISG)
Proposed CPRB Ordinance Change [1P31:
Throgmorton/ Okay, folks, we're gonna begin the Iowa City City Council work session for
Tuesday, December the 18th, 2018. The first topic is the proposed Community Police
Relations Board ordinance change. And before we get into that, I wanna thank Orville
and Monique for coming on behalf of the full Board, and to make sure you understand
how important we know the Board is, how important the work is, and how much we
appreciate the good work that you're doing. So, thanks for coming and...we'll hear how
this conversation goes tonight. I'm gonna ask Eleanor to briefly summarize, uh, what's
....what the difference is here with regard to Item 11, which is the main thing we'll be
discussing on the proposed ordinance change. Eleanor, could you do that please?
Dilkes/ Sure. I thought....particularly for, urn, Bruce's, um, orientation that I'd just(noises on
mic) a very...are these(several talking) (noises on mic)
Throgmorton/(mumbled) I hear it but it's not, there's not much volume.
Salih/Yes there is not! (noises on mic)
Throgmorton/(several talking) Try it again, see what happens?
Dilkes/Hello? (several talking)
Throgmorton/That's better!
Dilkes/I'll try and...is that better? Okay! Okay, um, so to kind of orient Bruce a little bit, urn,
just do a quick overview of the...uh.....CPRB. I keep...it's in my mind as PCRB. The
CPRB process. So essentially the Board was set up to review, um, complaints of police
misconduct. So a complaint can be filed with the Board. It's one of a number of places
where complaints against the Police Department, urn, gets filed. Uh,but it can be filed
with the Board. Um, within 90 days of the incident. The....the, uh, complaint is then
turned over to the Police Department to do an independent investigation, and....the, um,
the Police Department does these investigations like they do any complaint of
misconduct, whether that's generated by command staff or whether it's generated....it
comes from outside the City. Urn, and there's a....a particular process that they have to
go through in interviewing the officer, and I kind of explained that a little bit, um, in my
memo, and thinking back to when the origins of this Board, I think there were a couple
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reasons why Council decided to do it that way. One, urn, the notion that, urn, the....uh,
Police Department is responsible for policing itself and needs to do that initial
investigation, and then more logistically, urn, the Police Chief, uh, is the only person
because he's got disciplinary authority, who has the ability to compel the police officer to
talk to him. Urn, so that's not something that the, urn,the Board is able to do, urn,
because they're not in a position to provide the officer immunity, urn, from criminal
prosecution.....were the officer to make....to claim his Fifth Amendment rights. Urn, so
then the....the Police Department does the investigation, um, and the, uh, the Police Chief
sends a report to the Board, explaining, urn, the findings of the Police Department, and at
that point, the Board can decide how...what....what level of review they're going to give
that report, and there's a series of, you know, from less intense to more intense. The first
one is just on the record, reviewing the information that has been provided to them by the
Police Chief. Urn, and it goes all the way up to hiring an independent investigator to do
their own investigation, before they issue their conclusions, urn, on....on the Police
Chief's report. So with that background, urn, the only.....staff, as you saw, supported the
changes that were, uh,proposed by the CPRB. The only one that we had some concern
about was the....um, there were a couple suggestions about what to do if.....if the, urn,
Police Chief and the PCRB don't reach the same conclu....or CPRB don't reach the same
conclusion. Urn, and one of'em is....is that they sit down in closed session, where the
Board holds most of these conversations, and have a discussion about it, and the Police
Chief can give you his thoughts on that,but he was very supportive of that because at
least my sense in looking at these reports has been that it's....it's often a sense of just
different perspectives on the same situation, not so much that there's a difference in the
fact findings. Urn, so we agreed with that, um, proposal. But then the Board suggested
that if there's a disagreement between the Police Chief and the, urn, CPRB that at that
point then the Board would have the option of having an independent investigator review
the case. Um, and the staff....stated why we didn't think that was....that made a lot of
sense, both from an investigative perspective, because at that point....you know, the....
the facts are....have been (laughs) revealed and that's usually what...you wanna do those
kind of investigations before everybody's aware of what everybody else is saying. Um,
also the Board has the ability to do, um, a....hire an independent investigator....at the
earlier sta....at an earlier stage in the game when that type of investigation would seem
more appropriate. Um, and then I....I tried to explain as briefly as I could about, again,
how the, an independent investigator is not going to have the same access to the police
officer as the Police Chief does....because of those Fifth Amendment and compelling
testimony principles, and, um....uh....I think the Police Chief can add more to that if he
wants to, in terms of.....what he thinks the best mechanism is for....for ferreting out those
differences in the conclusions reached by the CPRB and the Police Chief.
Throgmorton/ If you folks concur...let me just see if this is.....suggestion works. It might be
good to hear from the Chief, and also hear from one or...of the Board Members, I don't
know, Orville or Monique or...to...to see if we can, if there's anything you wanna add or
modify in terms of....what Eleanor just described. Chief, could you, uh, add anything
you want to add or help us to understand.
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Matherly/Absolutely! Jody Matherly, Police Chief. Urn, you know, the CPRB is such an
important mechanism. Uh, we're one of the only ones in the state that even has such a
civilian oversight board. Urn (clears throat) you know, as....as we look at police reform
the last few years, these types of....of committees, these commissions, have been critical
and instrumental in the successes of police reform. It certainly adds a....a layer of...of,
urn, a lens from the public and the community's point of view, and a sense of
transparency, but it also builds confidence. So folks...that maybe wouldn't ordinarily
complain about our actions or....or something that occurred are now more comfortable
taking that action. So I applaud the City for havin' this Board. Um, I will tell you I had
folks, when I first started here, said, you know, I don't know about a CPRB. That might
be tough to deal with. You know, we have state ombudsmen. I had an ombudsman at
one of my past agencies and they're the same type of mechanism, and they're a good
thing. So the....the, uh, the process has been good. As far as fine-tuning the process, I
think it was needed to be able to have a conversation to talk about, you know, why it is
the decision I made, what our training dictates, what our policies say, what's the latest
training we have, and the procedures and...and urn, the court cases and things that are
very dynamic in our job and this is why we have CALEA, our accreditation process
because things are always evolving in our jobs because of these....these difference...
different things that occur, um, in rulings and how we need to conduct ourselves. So,
being able to sit down and explain that and why we're taking the action that we did, and
why we had the conclusion that we did is critical. That being said, urn, they may very
well shed light on somethin' that I missed. I'm a human being. So I'm not too, um
(laughs)too big to say that, you know,uh, you know what, I like your point of view and I
understand that and let me take another look at this. So I can certainly do that if needed,
urn, but we go through several layers of...of process when we do this, from our City
Attorney's office to our....our command staff, starting with the officer's immediate
supervisor. So this has a lot of set of eyes on it, urn, when....when we do this, and so I
want everybody to have confidence that it's not just me that comes to this conclusion.
It's....it's many, many people in many arenas for the City, uh, that have the...the interest
of the City, the complainant, and the officer all in mind for due process and to reach the
right conclusion. So....um....that's about all I've got. Are there any questions for me or
any comments?
Throgmorton/Maybe we should hear from Orville and/or Monique, and....and then Council
Members can ask any of the three people questions.
Matherly/Okay. Thank you!
Throgmorton/All right.
Galpin/We thank you all for, urn, for listening to this proposal that we have, and um, you know,
we....we're fortunate to have a great relationship with the Chief and, uh, you know,
police come to our meetings and we....we just wanna make some oversight for, you
know,there's going to be personal....personnel changes at some point on our Board.
They'll...there might be personnel change, um, you know, among the police (mumbled)
staff, so we just wanna make sure that these, urn, oversights and protections are put into
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place for....for the future,just in case there is ever a time when there isn't such a great
relationship. So our main concerns are just that if we have a difference of opinion with
the Chief that there are some protections so that, you know, if there are any necessary,
um, you know, changes, if we do need to bring someone in, that you know...that we're
able to do that. So did you wanna(mumbled)
Townsend/And basically I think, urn, you know, we....we're fortunate right now, I mean, the
concerns that I would have...are not about the Police Chief we have now. But I think
basically you appoint an advisory board, and I think it's important that you utilize that
board and get feedback from that board so that it will allow you to make better informed
decisions. Now havin' one of you guys come to the meeting that could be not too good
because it kind of pares your thinkin' but one of the things I was....I would recommend
that we do is that the, uh, Council appoint two Council Members to meet with the...with
....with our Board....twice a year....because when I first came on the Board, you know,
there's a lot of things that I saw that I had a lot of concerns about....and, you know, they
just...went un....with no attention, so I would say basically it's important that you not
only appoint us but you also keep a relationship with us, so that we can give you
feedback that helps you to make informed choices and decisions. So I think meetin' with
us twice a year, uh, have two appointees to meet with us twice a year for feedback, would
be a very positive thing and hopefully that (mumbled) as somethin' that'd be on-goin'.
Uh, sometimes I kinda feel like our Board is a rubber stamp, because, you know, we
meet, we look at the tapes and things and we make our recommendation. We write our
report, and we never hear anything. I'm sure that some place in a final report at the end
of the year, that information's there, but another thing I...I would like to see is that when
we give our written recommendation to the Board, if possible could you give us some
kind of written feedback to let us know what was the outcome of that. Not necessary that
we gonna be upset if you don't agree with us, but you know, we just like to know what,
you know,what....what's goin' on, you know, and maybe with some indication as to
what was the ra...rationale, if it goes against our recommendation. I mean....anything
you can do along the way that basically would help us to feel like we're actually....doin'
somethin', it would really help, but right now, you know, we meet and we write a report,
but you know, it's like if the Chief.....agrees with the officer and we disagree, um, the
way it is now it just seems like we....we just go through a motion. So it would be really
nice if we can....have a better system where it seems like we're workin' closer together
and that all parties involved are...are productive and....and, you know, actually achievin'
somethin'.
Throgmorton/Okay,hang tight and let's see if there are questions for you, Jody, or Eleanor.
Cole/I have a question relating to the early stage outside investigator. It's my understanding
there is a process to get an outside investigator early on, is that....is that correct? Urn,
why would that not be an adequate remedy at the earliest stage? As I understand that,
that would be someone from the outside, to be able to investigate it as opposed to
afterwards. And the second related question is, is do you have the authority now to write
a dissenting report, um, once the Police Chief makes the recommendation, urn, if you... if
you disagree with it.
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Galpin/(mumbled) not sure if there's any recourse if we do have, you know, difference, urn, of
opinion. So I think that's kind of one of our main concerns, why we were interested in an
investigator afterward, because sometimes it's like...I know we don't have the...the power
as a body, as a disciplining, uh, body, but it's to make sure that there's some sort of, urn,
process in place when we have a disagreement that is just...doesn't go into the ether, that
there's some sort of recourse.
Townsend/Yeah, and...and you know, we do have the right, like....we look at the Chiefs report
and we don't agree with it,then we can, you know, request an investigator to....to look at
it. We have that authority right now, you know. And....and I just like to say, you know,
it's like as the police review board, uh, everybody would just pounce and say, wow, you
know, it's like they wanna pounce on the police, uh, chief and the staff That's not the
case. I....I think we're in a good place right now. What we're askin' you to do is
consider change, and I can't think of a better time to make change than right now, while
we do have a police chief that's basically doin' a good job, that's actually interested in
the community, and....and basically doin' things to, you know, solidify the situation as
opposed for division. So this is a good time for the Council to, you know,put some
changes in because we've got a....a system and a police chief that's gonna support it.
Salih/I have a question for Eleanor. You said when they hire an independent investigation....
Investigator, uh....say if he said yeah, this complaint is sustain after he did his
investigation. What gonna happen?
Dilkes/Well the....the Board has the ability to hire the independent investigator to determine
what the Board's conclusion is. They don't have to do that. They can do just review the
information provided by the...by the Police...Department, but if...if...if they for some
reason think that they need a more thorough investigation or they need a more
independent investigation, they have the right to request that (both talking)
Salih/ ...instead of like accepting the Police Chief report, they would hire somebody else to
investigate it and...
Dilkes/It's...it's not a question of accepting the Police Chief They review the Police Chief s
report and then they make a public report, as you know, to the Council (both talking)
about what their conclusions are, and the question is what tools do they use...to help them
reach that conclusion, and there's a whole list of tools, some is....they can do their own
investigation; they can hire an independent investigator; um....they can subpoena
witnesses; etc. Um and so I think one of the concerns of staff is that ability to hire an
independent investigator is already present and the time to do that it seems is early on,
because the point of the investigation is to ferret out the facts, is to find out what the facts
are. It's not to resolve a dispute between the Police Chief and the Board.
Townsend/(both talking) Eleanor (mumbled) you know, we've reviewed a lot of cases, but we
haven't hired an outside investigator, and I think the reason for that is we haven't had a
case that has a lot of information that's very strong and....and devastating, where a
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person was actually, you know, really treated unfairly. Most of the cases we look at, you
know, they're kinda small, I mean, they're important, but they're....I don't think they're
important enough for us to go and hire an investigator because it's just not gonna be a lot
there. But now in the future if we ran across a case where it was blatant, then we would
probably hire an investigator before we submitted our report to the Council.
Dilkes/Yeah, and....and (both talking)
Thomas/ So prior Commissions have used the....their own investigator, but this current(both
talking)
Dilkes/I don't recall the....the CPRB ever us....hiring an independent investigator and I think
(both talking)
Salih/(mumbled)
Dilkes/ ...Orville says, it....it makes a lot of sense to me.
Townsend/A lot of...a lot of the cases that, you know, from my...my perspective on it, a lot of
the cases that we review, you know, m....my greatest concern was satisfied simply by....
uh, makin' a recommendation to the Chief that maybe trainin' is needed to, uh, improve
this. You know, one of the things that I run across was, you know, I think an officer
basically.....kinda responded to a citizen, but he was responding with an attitude of...a
personal attitude as opposed to the officer and a professional attitude. And that could be
correct with training. So I think a lot of that is what we do. We haven't had anything
that's really serious and blatant.
Dilkes/I....I think the question is....what is the best remedy when there is a disagreement
between the Police Chief and the Board, and in our mind, that's conversation between the
Police Chief and the Board, and resolution if possible, and....change for down the road of
how they look at things that, is remedy for that, not....a further investigation of the facts.
Salih/I....as a formal police review board like (unable to understand) I....when I was a, uh, I
really feel, uh, powerless. You know, even though this is as the Police Chief mentioned,
this is really important committee, you know, and it is unique. It is...it is the only one of
its kind, I guess, in the whole state, but think about it, we have three avenue for a person
to file....to file a complaint. He can file it with the Police Department. Police review and
the Human...the Human Right. If there is three....I can choose anyone! But if the Police
Chief would say this complaint is sustain and the Police, uh, Review Board was saying,
oh, we review it, it's not sustain. What gonna happen after that? Nothing was
happening! (unable to understand) sustain a complain, and the Police Chief was saying
this is not sustained, but nothing happen! Sustain a complaint,just put it on the file,
come to the Council, the Council have not done anything about it, and that's it! This is
what give me...why should have a Police Review Board if there is no avenue for the
Police Chief, for the person to file,what the difference between the person file with the
Police Chief and he would sustain it...not sustain it, and with the police report, and the
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Police Chief will come and not sustain it and those will come and sustain it, and nothing
gonna happen! The Police Review Board, to tell you the truth, I'm sorry you been doing
a good job, but it's powerless. When it come to a sustain of complaint, and the Police
Chief is not sustaining it. That's why I think this, uh, committee have to have the power
and now it is very good relationship between the Police Chief. Our Police Chief is
awesome. I understand that you really drive this community, like you made a lot
progress in making justice in this community. But, as she said, we never know who's
coming next. We need....and we never know who's Council coming next. We need to
have something here.
Townsend/I....I think we need to look at some system realities. I mean when you look at....the
boundaries that we're functioning within is....it's unique but it's....it's different. You've
got the Police Chief who basically is lookin' at it from a view of what he has to deal with,
the regulations and things like that,the union. You've got the Police Review Board. We
look at it because we are individuals in the community, and I've been here since 1962
and I'm gonna tell ya, I'm really pushin' to get as many changes....as I can in....in.....in
the, uh, written statements because even though I'm very comfortable and happy with
what we have now, I've lived through nightmares in terms of how I've been treated by a
policeman and nothin' happened, and even though things are okay now, I wanna make
sure that we put everything in place we can for the future so that if things aren't right, we
have some written guidelines that will basically give us some boundaries that people are
supposed to at least function within.
Teague/ So, Eleanor, I know that you mentioned that, um, if there's disagreement, I mean,that's
the question, when there's disagreement. So what happens—there's disagreement. It
comes to the Council and it comes to the Council for what?
Dilkes/It's a public report that goes to the Council, and....and then (both talking)
Teague/ ...just accept it or(both talking)
Dilkes/ ...the Council takes it from there is up to the Council.
Salih/ ....is part of the consent agenda. One vote. We never even look at it.
Mims/We can always pull it out!
Throgmorton/(both talking)
Mims/You know that, Maz.
Throgmorton/We can pull it out.
Salih/Yeah, I know you can,but we haven't done this and I don't see....when I sustain a
complaint on the....like when I was on the Police Review Board, we sustain a complaint
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and it come to the Council without even the Council talk about it, and this is last year,
you guys been here!
Throgmorton/Let me tell you what my concern is, and I'm curious about how each....each of the
three parties (laughs) reacts. I remember when Eric Shaw was shot and killed...by a
police officer. It was 1996 and that's the reason the CPRB exists, because that event
happened. And....public, many members of the public did not trust the process that
unfolded, uh, with regard to that particular event. I'm not claimin' anything beyond that,
but many people did not trust the process. And then I think about a worst-case scenario,
and when I think about worst-case scenario, in Iowa City, it's a Trayvon Martin-type
thing or it's a Michael Brown-type thing. A police officer kills, accidentally or whatever,
kills some member of the community and then there's investigation and the question
becomes will the public trust the results of the investigation. So what I'm wondering,
and I ask...really ask Chief Matherly and Eleanor this question, but....in a sense it goes to
y'all too, if an event like that happened, Chief, what kind of process would you want to
know is in place, ahead of time, so that the public will be able to trust the outcome of
investigations?
Matherly/ So during an event like you're talking about, where it's a use of force, lethal use of
force, there's...two processes that would be goin'. I...I usually say simultaneously but
truly the internal process lags behind the criminal process. So the first thing we would do
with somethin' like that is bring in an outside agency, generally the DCI, to say 'you
investigate this; you're a third-party; you take a look at it,' so even on appearance, uh,
doesn't....doesn't look like we're policing our own. That's just good business in
somethin' that serious. Urn,the...where we're, you know, where there could be criminal
charges. So we're not arresting our own. Um, not that we couldn't arrest our own, but
it's just a cleaner process. Certainly if the officer's vindicated and it's a...it's a
unfounded situation where the....the force was justified,that can not set well, uh, with
folks, even if, you know, even if it's justified. Sometimes it's just not pretty! Um,
behind that we then do the internal investigation. Now that may be through the CPRB. It
may be through like, uh, Mazahir said, an....an internal process where somebody made
the complaint with us. In that case we would use...do it anyway, even without somebody
complainin', because it's a use of force that's...that's of such a nature that we need to take
an internal review of that. So we would be on auto-pilot to do that. But we ride behind
the criminal investigation for many legal and logistical reasons, but that takes priority and
then we do ours. The officer can plead the Fifth Amendment on the statement to DCI, in
our criminal investigation, but he'd have to talk to me under Garrity for internal
investigation. So I may very well know more about the proc...or the incident than the
DCI does as far as the officer who's suspected of...or you know, who had to commit this
act. Urn, but I can't use that Garrity statement internally on a criminal nature. So that's
why we stay behind it, if that makes sense. So....you know, there are checks and
balances. Um, there has to be a level of trust to some extent on the internal side to say,
you know, did we do this right? End of the day, my job description says I don't only plan
and coordinate the Police Department,but I have to evaluate it. I have to,uh, review
performance, and I have to make sure that we're....and I say 'we,' the officers including
myself, are abiding by all the rules, literally hundreds (laughs) if not thousands of rules
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that we have. That's my job! And if I don't do that appropriately, I....I don't....I don't
like to hear that the Council's powerless. You guys have all the power in the world to
your City Manager to take care of business with me if I'm not doin' my job, if it's'
recognized and you find out that this isn't.....this isn't, we're seeing things and it
shouldn't be happening and you're not doing anything about it, I've got to answer to
somebody. My job description demands that. That's why I was hired. So I don't want,
you know, to anybody feel like they're rubber stamped, but I want 'em to feel like the
process is in place. Uh,there's....thousands of police departments out there. Uh, we're
an accredited agency cause we do things right. We have checks and balances in place.
This particular committee is more involved than, since I've been here, on keeping a good
eye on our policy—why'd you make this change? They just asked for one of my
investigators to come in last week, last meeting, and explain one of the policies. Said,
hey, can you have him come in and talk? We're very interested in why that is. And so
we did that. I think it was very good on everybody's part that they had a full
understanding and took the time to do that. So those processes are getting much,much
better. Um....there's work to do! But I....but I think....I think there's a process in place
without violating peace officer Bill of Rights, Garrity, you know, Latimer, all these... all
these, this case law that has to do with due process and labor and union contracts that we
still have a set of eyes on this that is still made public and that they can say 'we disagree,'
and somebody might want to take a look at this, and the boss (laughs) sits right here to
my left, on your right, uh,that has the power to absolutely....call me in and talk to me
about it. And so there....there is somethin' that can be done. Don't anybody feel
powerless on processes. This is simply to bring it in a transparent manner to the public so
those decisions can be made in a transparent way.
Cole/To Mazahir's point, though, what I'm wondering is, we get it on the consent agenda. We
have essentially two points of view—your view and then the Board's view.
Matherly/Uh huh!
Cole/It comes before us, um....what is the remedy that we have in that context? What do we do,
I mean because I think to your point, you know,there's this sort of principle (mumbled) I
have a right without a remedy, urn, if it comes before us, what are we authorized to do? I
mean we can't sanction the officer, can we? Um,we can't....that would be probably part
of the labor contract. So what...what can we actually do (both talking) talking about a
remedy.
Dilkes/...authority,but you...well number one you can have a discussion about it!
Cole/Okay.
Dilkes/Um, you know, I mean I think...you can ta...talk about what the report says. You can ask
the City Manager and the Police Chief questions about...why did you see it this way and
why did the CPRB see it this way and...and frankly if they had had a conversation about
it, that would be a helpful thing for you to know, and so while you don't have
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disciplinary authority, you certainly have the authority to....to ask for a policy review or
a policy change or....those kinds of things.
Matherly/And if it's an egregious act, again, we'll have that criminal investigation goin' as well,
likely by a third-party if it's truly a use of force where, you know, fatality or somethin'
like that, a....a police shooting, police-involved shooting.
Cole/What I'm wondering too, and maybe this is an Eleanor question, urn, I know for example,
let's say for example a City Council Member violated a City ordinance, I assume
someone else would prosecute that, right? I mean is there a process in place where if we
need to appoint an outside entity, like the County Attorney's Office, to do an
investigation or another entity? I know like for example if....if they get in trouble they
have another sister county attorney's office investigate that. Is....is there that sort of
process in place, urn, in....in.....in our city, that if there was a disagreement (mumbled)
they go to an outside entity to conduct an internal review?
Dilkes/Yeah...well, that's happened before at the human...with human rights complaints.
Cole/Okay.
Dilkes/For instance, if we have a human rights complaint that's against a City employee or
officer, we transfer it to the...to the State. Urn, there was a time when, um, gender
identity was not part of the State code.
Cole/Okay.
Dilkes/And so if we got a gender identity complaint against....one of our employees, um,then
we would have to hire an outside investigator. So it doesn't happen very often but we're
certainly sensitive to it.
Matherly/And if it's low level we certainly could ask an outside....the Sheriff's Office for
example, uh, if it's, you know, if it's a City Council person, it's a local ordinance, City
ordinance thing where needs further investigation, we....we can call on mutual aid to
say....you know, these are our bosses. Can you take a look (laughs) at this, so there's an
unbiased lens looking at that. That's always possible, and I've done that before in the
past.
Throgmorton/ So I'm not aware of any situations, at least in the last seven years, in which the
CPRB has asked us....has submitted a....a report that differs from the Chief's, and then
asked us to look into it more carefully, which is pretty much what you were just pointing
to as a....a possible, uh, approach in the case there's a conflict. So...maybe that's what
we need, is for the Board to know that it has the right to explicitly ask us as a full Council
to listen to both the Chief and the CPRB, and to try to understand the differing
recommendations and then us make some kind of judgment about how to proceed. I...I
don't know about how the law works (several talking)
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Dilkes/You could certainly put something formally in place. It kind of surprises me that that
doesn't already exist. You get them in your packets,you read them (both talking)
Throgmorton/Yeah, but I mean when the...to have the Board explicitly ask us to convene this
kind of joint discussion, instead of just saying 'well we disagree with the Chief' There
you are!
Dilkes/Well if these changes are made, the...the Police Chief and the Board would have already
had a discussion.
Teague/But it could still differ at the end of...at the end of that discussion. It could still (both
talking)
Dilkes/ Sure! They can make an explicit request. They can do...do all of that.
Teague/I did ask staff to submit to me, within the past 10 years, urn, how many, urn, allegations,
you know, were in disagreement, urn, and there were three within the past 10 years. So I
did review those, um, but again I think, you know, as the Mayor was just saying, if
there's a way that, urn.....when that happens, when it comes to Council in the consent,
you know, calendar or whatever,that it is pulled and that it is somethin' that is
specifically discussed. I guess my question at that point is, when it comes to Council,
aren't we just approvin' the minutes? Aren't we...we're not approvin' the decisions.
Throgmorton/That's right, on the consent calendar when it happens that way, yes.
Teague/ So we're not makin'....so we're...I mean, who makes the final decision is the question.
(both talking)
Fruin/You still (both talking)
Teague/ ...the Chief? (both talking)
Fruin/ ...a decision on the consent, when you accept it you're....you're accepting the report. I
think just listening to the conversation, probably the first step is just for us as staff not to
place it on the consent agenda any more. If....if a conversation is what is desired, uh, we
should....we should put that on the regular agenda and that forces you to have a...have a
conversation, and we'd be happy to do that. Urn, the other thing I just want to point out
is, those reports are not just beneficial to the public and to the Council, but they're
beneficial to me. As the Chief said, I have the responsibility of overseein' the Police
Department and when there's...when there are those disagreements, I sit down with the
Police Chief and we....we talk through them. Now I usually know a little bit about the
case, particularly these past few years I've been participating in the officer interviews, uh,
but we sit down and we talk about that disagreement, and those discussions could lead to
things that....that you or others in the community may not know about. It could be an
emphasis on more training in a particular area, urn, or a....a,maybe I'll ask for a policy
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review, uh, for items that I notice. So just wanna point that out, that those reports are,
again, beneficial to....to the City Manager's office.
Townsend/Can I make a statement? Uh, number 11, you know, we....we felt that...you know,
that's somethin' to guarantee that we're doin' everything that we can to....you know,
make sure that the public is taken care of. You know, I've looked at that and...the more I
look at it I realize that it's kind of a double-edged sword. You know, it will give us what
we want in terms of protectin' the public, but it kinda puts some....puts you on real thin
ice with the City in terms of all kinds of legalities and everything else. We don't wanna
do that. You know. We've had good....good discussion here and you know, again, I
would just really encourage ya to put in the ordinance, you know, if....if we can have it
so that the Council not only appoints the Board, but you're workin' with us. You know,
we can solve a lot of these problems without, you know, discussion like this. That's why
I feel that it'd be very healthy if we had a couple liaisons from the City Council, that met
with the Board twice a year. That's when we could express concerns and it could be
brought back to you guys and things could be changed and stuff like that. I think that
would be a beginning.
Mims/(several talking) When I look at....when I look at what, uh, the CPRB has asked for and
look at the staff recommendations, I've....tried to read through these one to one,two to
two, etc., to really kind of go through the detail. And...um, and so when I've looked at
these, I didn't see any problems with the first 10, and staff didn't either, and obviously a
number of them were just renumbering of paragraphs once some other,uh, changes were
made. Urn, when I get to 11 and I....and I read through what the CPRB has asked for,
urn, and before I even....when I read this a few months ago, urn, one of the things that
first popped up in my mind is....was the concern and this came from staff as well, the
idea of doing an independent investigation, after the Board has issued a public report. To
me....that....that does...that's not logical. Um,just from the standpoint, I....I would hope
that the Board would want to make sure that they have all of the facts,urn, in front of
them before they issued any kind of public report. So if there's any hesitancy on the
Board's part, that...of whether or not they have all the facts, that they would ask for that
independent investigator upfront, as the Board is currently allowed to. So that, you
know,before that...that report comes out public that you have....that you're sure that you
have all the facts, that if there's anything that the Police Chief has provided you in his
report,that you're not comfortable with or questioning whether it's complete or anything
else, that the Board would in fact say, wait a minute, we want...we need to stop a second
and we need to get an independent investigator and make sure we have all the facts.
Since the Board hasn't ever done that, I'm....I'm making the assumption that the Board
has been comfortable that they do have all the facts in front of them. Um, and certainly
now with the body cams, I would hope that that has facilitated, um, having a lot of those
facts in front of you. So....so I was really concerned,because I think once....you get the
public report out there....it almost looks like you're putting, you know, the horse before
the...the cart before the horse, in terms of issuing a report and then saying, oh wait a
minute, now we need to go get some facts, or get some more facts. So....so that was...
was my concern there. Um....there were certain other issues in there that I particularly
had, um, about the inde....independent investigator commenting, um, in terms of
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discipline. I'm not sure that any independent investigator, if they're even in an initial
stage, if they are the appropriate person to be talking about discipline. To me that
independent investigator is to get the facts, so the Board, you know, can make their...
their determination of whether it was sustained or not. Urn, I'm not sure on a legal or
policy aspect....I.....I think that....I think that almost comes back almost on a political
standpoint. If....and Eleanor would...and the Police Chief and Geoff would have to kind
of address this as, you know, who knows....when you get into personnel issues, who
knows what was done and what, uh....what ramifications there were against that
particular officer, if those charges were sustained. And so, you know, looking at what
was done, and I...probably that comes back to the City Manager's lap in terms of, you
know, knowing what that...what was done and whether or not he feels that what the Chief
did was appropriate, uh, because that's protected under State law as....am I correct in
that, Eleanor, in terms of any, um.....what's the word I'm (mumbled) any discipline that
is is required or is....any discipline that the Chief might put forth on an officer is
never going to become public. It is....
Dilkes/It could if there's an appeal by the police officer to the Civil Service Commission.
Mims/ Okay. But unless that happened it would not become public, is that correct? Or at least
the City would not be releasing that information, is that a fair(both talking)
Dilkes/We would not....there is some case law that suggests that in some circumstances the
public interests might trump the personnel privacy issues.
Mims/Okay. So without spending a whole lot more time on this, I am...very comfortable with
everything that the CPRB has asked for, except number 11, and I would also support
what the, uh, staff has recommended in terms of adding, urn, taking the City Manager out
of all those meetings,but certainly making the City Manager available if the CPRB were
to request (mumbled)
Townsend/ Susan, I....I hear what you're sayin' and in terms of the system and legalities, it'd
make a lot of sense, but can you share with me, can you tell me how do we handle it
when there's a situation, a chronic situation, and a majority of your Police Review Board
feel that a citizen has been treated extremely unfair, even after the City Council has
looked at the material and disagreed with the Police Chief.
Mims/I think in those cases what needs to happen is what has not happened is....for the Board to
maybe specifically ask us to discuss it. Um, if....if you feel like the Council has been
burying it in the consent agenda, as Geoff said, one quick and easy way is to take it out of
the consent agenda, and for....and then at that point if it's not on the consent agenda, for
the Board Members to come to the meeting at which it is on our agenda and we always
allow the public to speak on any agenda item that is....that is on, and so that way
basically to force the Council, whether it's this Council or a Council in five years or 10
years, to actually publicly engage in a conversation about that particular report, and why
you as Board Members feel that....you know, your decision and the Chiefs decision
don't jive, and I would hope in adding that piece of having the Board and the Chief sit
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down together when there is a disagreement on whether the complain is sustained or not,
I'm hopling...I would hope that we would have even fewer of those in the future.
Townsend/ Okay, that like I say, we....we're not gonna come to an agreement with this because,
you know, I know what can happen. I know what has happened. You know, and
basically I suggest that you leave the City Manager in on all the meetings, because when
we have a negative situation, and you gotta remember—one of the mistake people make
is when they make a decision, a lot of times they make it on how they feel about
somethin'. You know, it's like you guys, you may be doin' a good job. You may really
wanna see positive things happening,but we haven't always had a City Council that's
positive like this. We haven't always had a Police Chief that's positive like this, and I
just want you guys to think about that. Don't think about how you feel about it. Try to
think of what your citizens are goin' through.
Salih/Also I just wanna say that....I don't think, and maybe you can correct me, Eleanor. Can
they come out and talk about this public here? I don't think so,because if I wanna tell
you why I disagree with the Police Chief, I have to tell you the story. I have to tell you
what did I see on the camera that made me change my mind, what did I hear, what, you
know, all those things, and I....I don't think we can talk about case public like this,
because all those like confidential material. Uh, I don't know,here's...I think the
question is simple. Maybe we don't need to take the option of hiring outside investigator.
I can agree with you for that,but what have we....what can we do if those two people did
not agree? You know, what...what the recommendation? If you don't like the
independent investigation, okay, take it away and give us a solution. I guess those people
they need a solution so they can see that they doing really good job by coming every like,
every month and look at all those complaints and look all the videos, hear all the audios,
it take a lot time to go through those and after that come and say this complaint is
sustained and the Police Chief said it's not sustained. I'm done! What can they do?
That's the question.
Cole/ If there were one of these big cases, could they...presumably couldn't they refer it to like
the DCI, if you had one of these major cases, could they refer it to an outside entity, um,
or would there be any remedy that they would have, and I think the other(both talking)
Dilkes/They meaning the CPRB?
Cole/CPRB, yes.
Dilkes/I...the DCI does criminal investigations. I don't think they would do a(both talking)
Cole/ Is there any other State entity that they could review it too, uh, certified agency for officers
or any other outside entity that would not be us?
Dilkes/I would, I mean there....there are independent investigators that just do that for a living.
That's kind of what is envisioned, I think, in the....in the....but I...I think the question is
—it's not that....okay, you have a disagreement between the Police Chief and the CPRB
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Page 15
as to....a certain case. It's not that....we think they're....that staff is saying there
shouldn't be a discussion about that, a conversation about that, a community highlight of
that, a....putting it on the separate agenda. Staff just doesn't think that the investigation
at that stage is a remedy for that problem.
Mims/ Investigation should come at the beginning (both talking)
Dilkes/ ....don't understand, that's what I don't get is...the facts are out there, it's not that...it's
not usually that the Police Chief and the CPRB disagree on the facts. They disagree on
how they (both talking)
Salih/(mumbled) (both talking)
Dilkes/ ...see those facts and how they....and those are two good, I mean....different (both
talking)
Throgmorton/So, Eleanor, go back to the point Mazahir made. To what extent can we, could we
as a Council talk about....a particular issue during a Council meeting where we have a
sustained, not sustained kind of conflict between, uh, the Department and.....
Dilkes/The Board puts the....puts a summary of the facts in their report.
Taylor/We cur...currently when we get that it's the,the meeting minutes and it doesn't have
names or any sort of personal information but kind of in regards to that, Eleanor....could
we call for, would it be appropriate to call for a close session if....if it was personal
information that....that needed to be discussed and....and would it be between the CPRB
and the Council?
Dilkes/You don't have disciplinary authority over the officer. And that's why you go into
closed session. So probably not.
Taylor/ Okay.
Dilkes/You have disciplinary authority over the City Manager if you thought that somehow the
City Manager had mishandled this particular situation, you could go into closed session
and talk about that.
Townsend/Well I think one thing, you know (mumbled) and maybe I'm missin' somethin', but
when the Board,when we....you know, send our report to the City Council, we don't
hear anything back! You know, so you talkin' about gettin' an investigator, I mean, and
this is what I mean about us....personally I feel like a rubber stamp. I mean you know we
go through all the problem, or trouble, of reviewin' the tapes, gettin' all the information,
then we meet and we discuss it. We set the level. We discuss it. And then we finally,
you know, come to an agreement. We write the report and we send it to the City
Council! Now basically....uh, maybe I'm wrong but we don't hear anything back, you
know.
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Dilkes/And what I'm saying, I understand that perspective. I'm just saying that I think the
remedy for that is not an investigation. It's to...call it out as a separate agenda item, as
Geoff has suggested, not just....do you understand how the consent calendar works? So
when they say the consent calendar, it's just a bunch of kind of routine items, and
because this is an acceptance of a report, that's where it has landed in the past(both
talking)
Townsend/ ...and I'm sayin' that we can't really....say we wanna get an investigation,that we
don't know what the final outcome of the Council's decision on it.
Mims/But....but to me an investigation is to get the facts! And you should have,the Board
should have the facts before they...come to a conclusion and write a report. I...I guess
I'm on the same page with Eleanor. I don't see what an investigation is gonna do after
you already have the facts.
Townsend/That's a double-edged sword that I was talkin' about, that's why I say I'm willin' to
back off on that but I do (both talking)
Mims/But you have....you have the Police Chiefs report before you give your report. So you...
you know what his conclusion is. And so....if you've....watched the body cam and
you've....and any other information and you've read the...and read the....the Chief's
report....and you have any question about that, then.....it would seem to me that that is
the time for the Board to request that outside investigator.....is before you issue a report!
(several talking)
Salih/ I don't know but I'm sorry all (unable to understand) if Suzanne really get what you
asking for. (unable to understand)receive the....the report from the Police Chief. They
want and they...investigating themself and they find out that....they don't agree with the
Police Chief.
Mims/Then hire an investigator, before they issue their report.
Salih/But....what you mean,that's what they asking for, to hire (both talking)
Mims/No,they're asking for it after they (both talking) after they already issue the report.
Salih/That's what they told you! They find out....they disagree with, and they have the...they
report that they disagree!
Mims/No. How can you disagree if you don't have all the facts in front of you?
Salih/No,they are not asking for....correct me if I'm wrong, you are not asking for the
investigation because you don't have all the facts. You have all the fact, you found out
this complaint is sustain,but because you disagree with the Police, you need somebody
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Page 17
independent who like neutral person to investigate this and to see if he come up with the
information, with the Police Chief or with them, so they can (both talking)
Mims/But what is the investigator doing if...if you....if you say that everybody already has the
facts, then what is that investigator doing(both talking)
Salih/Right, I'm with you until here. Okay, everybody have the fact. What(unable to
understand) They saying this sustain, and he saying it not sustained. What next, and I
am as a citizen who file a complaint with the Police Review, what I'm getting? What I'm
getting?
Mims/But what is the investigator doing,just giving a third perspective?
Salih/ Sure! Just don't bring the investigator then. Let us just assume we are not asking, they
are not asking for that.
Throgmorton/Could....could the City Council request a (both talking)
Salih/ Can we do that?
Throgmorton/A....a follow up investigation, in other words if we pull....an item out of the
consent calendar because there's been this non....not sustained kinda finding and we
discuss it, could we then decide that we need to hire as....an independent investigator
because we think there's something about the situation that requires that kind of
additional review?
Mims/But my....my question still comes back to the fact, what are you asking an investigator to
do?
Throgmorton/I don't know because (both talking)
Mims/Let me just finish, please, because typ....when I think of an outside investigator,when
you say investigate, an investigator is looking for information and facts to....to help
people make a decision. If the Board and the Chief agree on the facts,but have a
different perspective, okay, we can all see the same set of facts and have different
opinions or perspectives about what those facts mean or how those facts should be
judged. My perception is that....is what is going on is that the Board, where there are
disagreements, is that the Board and the Chief have...I've never heard that they don't feel
they have the same set of facts, but they're coming at it from different viewpoints,
different perspectives, and the Chief is saying based on his experience in law
enforcement and the training, etc.,that he feels that....the officer's, uh, behavior was
appropriate and that the complaint is not sustained and the Board coming at it from their
perspective is saying, no, an officer should not have behaved this way and so they are
sustaining that complaint. So if they're operating from the same set of facts, but it's
different perspectives that get them to that sustained versus unsustained...conclusion
(both talking)
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Salih/ (both talking)
Mims/What is an outside...what is a....well then the....if they don't all have the same facts, then
I would still go back to saying the Board has the police off...the Police Chiefs report
before they...before they give their report. So as they're doing their investigation, if they
don't believe they're gonna reach the same conclusion the police....the Police Chief does,
and they believe they're not going to reach the same conclusion because of lack of facts,
then they should call for an investigation at that point in time, not after they have publicly
done a report.
Throgmorton/ Okay, I'm worried that we're gonna keep going over this same terrain over and
over again. We've been doin' it for about an hour now. So, I mean it's important but...
go ahead (mumbled)
Galpin/I feel like we as a....as a police board have been kind of spinning our wheels on this
since like early 2017 and so I think at least as a baseline, the suggestion of removing it
from the consent calendar, having it as a separate item,having the City Council go over
that, that's at least a starting point. That puts us closer, you know, enters us a little bit out
of that spinning of our wheels, so that's a great starting point and so I know we're still
kind of going back and forth about the investigator, but at least pulling it out of the
consent agenda is recommended.
Throgmorton/Thank you, Monique. I was gonna suggest that, but thank you. I'd like to make
one other suggestion and that is if the Board feels very strongly....about the finding of
not sustained, we need to know that. You know, cause...that will help us review the
situation better.
Cole/What about the twice a year? Did we decide(both talking)
Throgmorton/Well let's see if we've got this decided first, okay? So, uh....
Fruin/Go ahead,that's kinda where I was goin'.
Throgmorton/Yeah, so are....are you in agreement that we should add this, I don't know,
additional layer where basically we pull any item that's not sustained, we pull it out of
the consent calendar and have it as a separate formal meeting agenda item.
Cole/Yes.
Throgmorton/And that the Board is totally invited, etc., to present the rationale for its
disagreement with the....with the Chief and vice versa. Are we in agreement with that?
Salih/Okay but do we have a plan?
Throgmorton/Do we have a plan?
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Salih/What we gonna do after that?
Throgmorton/ I...I wanna know about this part first.
Salih/(unable to understand) ...wanna know, we gonna have a plan so I can say yes or no. Why
we doing this?
Throgmorton/To provide additional public review, layer of review, of the....the fact that there's
disagreement. (several talking)
Salih/Okay.
Throgmorton/And that the Board then would have the opportunity to be clear with us and then
we'd have a chance to talk about it, and maybe help the Board understand why we are
gonna support the Chiefs recommendation or vice versa.
Cole/ Sounds reasonable to me.
Throgmorton/I mean that's...seems to me that's what...what's involved. Okay (several talking)
think we're okay with that part of it, huh?
Salih/Is okay?
Townsend/Do we get to meet twice a year and (both talking)
Mims/We haven't done that yet. (several talking)
Throgmorton/So, uh, is that the(both talking)
Cole/Yeah, I was gonna bring up that point.
Throgmorton/Yeah so....
Mims/ I'm sorry, before we get to that can we talk about the other piece, about the Manager's
participation, cause that was in there(both talking)
Throgmorton/Yeah, so the staff recommends that, uh, the City Manager not attend every, uh,
such meeting, but I think there's some (both talking)
Mikes/Well, we're talking about two different meetings. We're talking about currently the
Board...or the ordinance, requires that the Board...or that the City Manager, attend the
interview with the police officer.
Throgmorton/Okay.
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Dilkes/And so that's....that's where staff is suggesting we....we stop that, but we inc...we
include the ability of the Board to ask for the City Manager's participation, if there's
disagreement between the Board and the Police Chief.
Throgmorton/Okay. I see Orville shakin' his head. Explain, please, why you don't think that's
a good idea.
Townsend/Well a while back we....we suggested that that happen, you know, because it means
that you got....you've got, the more people you have in terms of visibility, you know, and
the City Manager bein' part of the process, you know, we felt that that, uh, it...it kinda
strengthen that process.
Teague/ So he's...so you're in agreement that the City Manager would attend the CPRB, when
there's a disagreement, at the request of the (both talking)
Townsend/ ...the interview.
Froin/Maybe I can...maybe I can clarify this a little bit. Currently I sit in on the officer
interviews, and that's it. That's the only part of the investigation that I'm....I'm involved
in. So if there's (both talking)
Throgmorton/For any such situation?
Fruin/Correct. If there's witness interviews, if there are interviews with, uh, the complainant,
I'm not involved in any of those. I....I get, I get brought into the interviews with our
officers that are involved in the complaint. Urn, and then I...I do not also attend the
CPRB meetings. So I don't have any involvement in the process except for those officer
interviews. Now, I don't feel very strongly about this item. If...if the public and the
Council feels better by having me continue,that's fine. I can say the reality is, um, I
review these instanc...these, urn, cases holistically at the end anyway, okay? So I....I
take a look at all the information, I sit down, I discuss 'em with the Chief, I discuss his
findings, I discuss the CPRB, uh, findings with the Chief. So it's not like I'm removed
from the process, um, with this recommendation, but that said, if....if the Council and if
the public feels strongly that they want me to continue to be scheduled in on these officer
interviews, that's fine. I just have not seen the value in that, in my two years.
Throgmorton/Can you estimate how many such interviews you've sat in on, in on over the past
year?
Fruin/Well I don't know how many complaints we've had. I mean the complaints are only half
a dozen a year and there's usually one officer interview associated, sometimes there
might be a....a couple officer interviews. Uh, so it's not a....a huge, um, commitment of
time. Um, as I...or as Eleanor noted in the memo, after talking with me, one of the
challenges is just scheduling. Uh, so that the police get the complaint, they wanna
schedule the officer, the officer, uh, may be workin' the night shift and I've got a busy
schedule. We gotta get the super...the investigation team, which is usually two or three
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supervisors, gotta get the officer, and you gotta get my schedule aligned. So it can slow
things down. Obviously we're still cranking through these, so it's not, again, not a huge
deal.
Matherly/Let me add another piece. Officer Bill of Rights, we...we have to record those
interviews anyway, so he would have the luxury of not just my synopsis and holistically
looking at it,but listening to the interview itself and if he feels it fell short, we could
certainly go back and do more on the interview. There's nothing that prohibits that.
Teague/Just from hearin' everything that's been said about this part, I would...probably suggest
that...or be in support of the City Manager attending,urn, the CPRB, when there is a
dispute between the findings. Um, I...to sit in each one of those, um, I think....at that
point if it comes back to there's a difference in opinion, while he's already been exposed
to that interview process, which could lead to some biases or somethin' like that, but I
think it would be much cleaner if there was a dispute that he attend, uh, one of the
CPRB's, when there's a dispute.
Throgmorton/Can....can the Board know in advance whether it would be good to have the City
Manager present for such interviews?
Galpin/ Sorry, can you repeat that?
Throgmorton/Yeah. Uh, let's say there're like six or eight interviews that might occur during a
particular year. Would the Board know ahead of time whether it's important for the City
Manager to be present for one or two or whatever of those....uh, interviews?
Dilkes/I think that's....if I can just...I think that's probably unlikely because it, the complaint
goes directly to the Police Chief for the....for the investigation first. The Board
doesn't...analyze it until they get the Police Chief's report. So I would say probably no.
Throgmorton/So I....Council Members, do you have an opinion about this, in terms of whether,
uh, Geoff should be present for these interviews?
Cole/(mumbled) excuse me, I like giving Geoff the discretion, urn,which I understand's
consistent with the recommendation. So I...I would leave it to the discretion of the City
Manager.
Taylor/I agree with what Bruce had said as far as having...when there is the disagreement and
sort of serving as a mediator type person...rather than...and if he did need to listen to the
interviews, as....as the Chief said, they are taped and he could....he could review those,
rather than sitting in on all of them.
Salih/But, Orville, how helpful is that to you, if he sit for the interview between the officer and
the Police Chief?
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Townsend/Well I think basically just bein' a citizen it's...it's a safeguard. You know, I mean,
you know, like I told ya, I tried to be honest with ya upfront. My reactions don't have
any...very much to do with the present. My reactions are a result of the past and what can
happen in the future if we end up with a police chief that feels like `I gotta protect my
boys in blue.'
Throgmorton/I'm gonna agree with Orville on this. How bout the rest of you?
Salih/Me too. I do.
Throgmorton/One....
Teague/ So we're agreein' that, I mean you're askin' if we would require the City Manager to sit
in on every(both talking)
Throgmorton/As...as is currently being done.
Salih/Yes.
Fruin/And let me just...for those of you who haven't responded, I don't want this to be a divisive
issue. This doesn't need to be a divisive issue, and I think if there's not the comfort level
at the Council level, and there's not the comfort level at the CPRB, then let's just keep
the status quo. Again, may....maybe we revisit it down the road further, but it's more
important that people are comfortable with the process than whether I've gotta work
through scheduling six times or seven times a year.
Throgmorton/Okay, are we agreeable with that? (several responding) All right.
Dilkes/So do you also though want to add to the ordinance that the....the CPRB can request the
City Manager's attendance at the meeting with the Police Chief, if there's a
disagreement? I assume(several talking) as well? (several talking)
Throgmorton/ I would think that'd be a good thing. Yeah. All right, so the last component (both
talking)
Townsend/ ...in all fairness to Geoff(mumbled) we...one of the new changes that we're
requestin' is that we meet with the Police Chief, if there's a disagreement. So (mumbled)
I....I don't think we want Geoff(mumbled) all the time but I think if we have a situation
where we disagree and there's some strong feelings about it, then you know the Board
should have the right to request that the City Manager sit in. That way we're not...
monopolizin' his time.
Salih/ Sure.
Dilkes/That's how I understand it (several talking)
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Throgmorton/ Okay. The last point is...has to do with Or....Orville's suggestion that we assign
two Council Members to meet with the Board twice a year.
Mims/Is this something the Board has discussed at all or.....
Throgmorton/Yeah, is it a Board recommendation, Orville, or just you?
Townsend/No,no, no,no, no. It's just, uh, basically as I thought about it, you know, in terms...
it's somethin' that in terms of, you know, I....I feel you guys appoint....you appoint us,
but that's it, you know, and you really don't get much communication from us. You get a
report and I think basically in terms of us just like we're requesting a change in ordinance
right now, and we're discussin' it here, I think we'll come out lots better that way
because it'll avoid us havin' the discussion that we had tonight.
Salih/Uh huh.
Mims/I don't disagree, but I do think something like this should come from the Board...the
request should come from the Board as a whole....
Throgmorton/ I agree.
Mims/...not just one member. So....
Throgmorton/Yeah, so please, uh, ask....ask your fellow Board members to discuss it. (several
talking) Okay. Good deal (several talking) Okay! Thank you so much for coming.
Townsend/Jim...
Throgmorton/Yeah?
Townsend/I just think you guys oughta get a (mumbled) (laughter)
Fruin/I'll add just one more thing. I think,just listening to the conversation, it'd be helpful that,
now that the items,where there's disagreement,will go on the regular agenda. What we
should do is get the Council meeting transcripts and put those in the CPRB packets, so
those members that could not attend can....can at least read the Council, uh, deliberation
on the matter.
Throgmorton/Okay! All right, we should move on and we have, let's see now, 25 minutes,
somethin' like that. We should move on to our next topic, which is the solar feasibility
study and what we wanna do is revisit some of our discussion from, uh, the meeting two
times ago. So,Ashley, could you briefly summarize the memo for the benefit of anybody
watching this on TV?
Solar Feasibility Study 11P41:
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Monroe/Yes!
Throgmorton/And others.
Monroe/ Sure! Um, so in our most recent information packet we put out a....a, like a follow up
memo for, uh, the solar feasibility study. Bluestem came to, urn,present their
recommendations at the December 4°i meeting and Council had some discussion,uh,
which led us to....do a little bit more, uh....I gue....I guess an analysis of the scenario 2,
urn, from Bluestem in their recommendations. So that included, urn, a recommendation
for solar photovoltaics, uh, our Mercer Scanlon facility, the Robert A. Lee Recreation
Center, and the waste water treatment, uh, facility. So in this particular memo though, we
removed the waste water treatment plant from that scenario, uh, with the rationale that
we're planning, or proposing in the fiscal year 20 budget, urn,that there'll be some type
of study that assesses the methane generated at the facility and other operational needs
there, which may, urn, help alleviate some of the greenhouse gas emissions and energy
usage that we have currently at the plant. Um, there was discussion at the Council
meeting about the proposal for a system at Terry Trueblood Recreation Center. So we
added that to this scenario, and really we just summarized that with the...with the
estimated costs of what that system might encompass at the maximum amount of solar
that....that the consultant recommended, urn, as well as the payback for that. So further
in the memo we assess the, urn, the data for our, uh, facility emissions, the greenhouse
gas emissions. There was some question about that during our....our discussion. Um, so
we dod....did include a, um, a chart for our municipal facilities energy usage. So, uh, in
those facilities, like Mercer and the Recreation Center, we included that as, you know,
what percentage of our municipal emissions at our facilities are generated by those two
facilities. Urn,just so you could see kind of a offset of what that could look like or a
portion of that, with the solar recommended by Bluestein. We also note the....the
Recreation Center's', uh, reconstruction and the potential for reconstruction. We...we're
assessing, um, the feasibility of adding on to that facility,urn, with OPN, the architects
that are doing the....the renovations there, uh, for the gymnasium, the racquetball court
area, and urn, their conclusion was that it wouldn't necessarily be possible to build up at
the Recreation Center as it is currently. That's why we....they were thinking to move out
and so when the Bluestem did the solar study, that wasn't a consideration when they were
looking at the facility. So their....their recommendations at the Recreation Center
downtown includes all of that roof availability, uh, which we may not feel....feel great
about. Urn, that's for you to determine. Other thing is our Public Works' facility that's
being built. We noted....basically repeated that information, um,that we're prepared to
include funding for a solar, um, voltaic system on the rooftop at the new facility and, um,
so we're prepared to work through those things with the architects there. And finally,
urn, we....looked at a couple of, you know, we're not sure what the energy rates will look
like over the span of time that a solar fixture might be in place. It could be good, it could
be not....not great in terms of the return on what we're investing cost-wise. Um, the
renewables, as....the community increases our renewable energy generation, the value of,
uh, greenhouse gas emissions and the decrease will....will, you know, be less. Urn,
finally we talked to MidAmerican and Eastern Iowa Light& Power. Um,both of them
reached out to us as a result of the study. So I think the lines of communication are open
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for us to further discuss what....what our options might be if we don't choose to put, urn,
as much solar out or or all the solar, as recommended by the consultant. So we gave
Council some options for proceeding. We can do some combination of what this looks
like. Uh, either to move forward with the plans at the, uh, Public Works' facility. It's,
um, up to you to....to determine. But we also can utilize the public education materials
that, uh,they included in their report. Um, there was some value there. We could also,
uh, bring the....study results to the Climate Action Advisory Board, our....our committee
in the public, um, to identify how the City could prioritize any of the other projects. Um,
we have some very technically savvy, um, people on that...on that board and they may
offer some opinions. And then the other option, the major option, would be to pursue
our, the work at the Public Works' facility and other options, which could include one or
more of the recommendations from Bluestem. It could be a partnership with, urn, one or
more of our energy providers. So looking forward to a partnership or some kind of
project that we might be able to work on, and then, um,just further implementing our
energy efficiency projects around the community. So looking at our climate action plan,
looking at our facilities plan, our CIP, and investing in those ways to....to reduce
emissions and costs.
Throgmorton/Thank you (both talking)
Mims/When I looked at these, the options for proceeding, um, I was kind of interested in a mix
and match approach (laughs) Urn, I think we should always be considering other options.
Um, I think.....I don't think we want to rely just on solar, and so I....and I think we
definitely should have, uh,have meetings and conversations with our energy providers
about what kind of partnerships they might be interested in and how that might, uh, be
beneficial to us,both financially and also in terms of improving our reduction in
greenhouse gas emissions. Um, but I also want to make sure we don't overlook the....the
expertise and...and the usage of our Climate Action Advisory Board. Urn, I would
certainly like to...for us to look at keeping them involved and prior...helping prioritize,
um, maybe some of the other projects that we might want to be, urn, looking at. So I....I
think it's important...we asked them to do an awful lot at the front end and I think when
they got done and did their report, I heard a number of them say,kind of like we wanna
stay involved, don'tplease don't just dump us (laughs) you know, now and so I think
this'd be a great way to keep them involved in terms of....as you said, there's a lot of
technical expertise there and maybe have them doing some of the evaluation and giving
us their priorities on some....whether it's the P...other PV projects and/or other projects
that we should consider doing and then we could look at that analysis.
Taylor/I....I agree with Susan. I think, um, solar just seems to be a small piece of the puzzle, as
far as the energy efficiency, and I believe, uh, that committee did have a....a large array,
a very diverse, uh, approach to energy efficiency and....and, uh, emission reductions, but
I think that's' the bigger part, and of course we as a city can be a role model and....and
do the solar projects, cause of course the County's already take....taken the lead on that,
uh, but so I think with the waste water...or the, um, Public Works' facility is....is very
visible and it's already plans for construction and plans for solar feasibility of that. So I
think that's an excellent place to start and so kind of along with that, and the mix and
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match approach, I think Terry Trueblood would make sense since it's right across the
way from there to...to do that also then. That...that's my opinion.
Throgmorton/So I'm...I'm gonna agree in part, uh, with both...what both of you said. My own
personal sense is that we oughta tell the staff we wanna proceed with the Public Works'
facility.
Mims/I want numbers first. We haven't seen dollars for that yet, in terms of the design and
(both talking)
Throgmorton/ I know. I know, all this is gonna end up in our budget discussions, I understand
that,but....basically with regard to the question at hand, proceed with the Public Works,
uh, PV array. I really like the idea of doing the Trueblood Park, uh,project, which would
seem to be very small and has a very good,uh, financial payback. I really like the idea of
asking the Advisory Board to...review the solar, um, feasibility study and relate it to our
climate action plan and help us prioritize, so...so that they can, you know, put their
expertise to bear on that particular question, and I really like the idea of....installing, not
installing. Um.....um......well I'll use the verb installing. Installing some public
education, uh, components at either Trueblood or the Public Works' facility, and...and
when I say `public education' stuff I mean some of the material that's described at the
end of the consultant's report. That's....that's what I'm thinkin'.
Thomas/ I agree. I would just....wanna emphasize. I think the....the role of the Climate Action
Advisory Board is really, I think, a valuable piece of this and....I, you know, I'd be
interested in their....their thoughts regarding, um, you know, the....the Public Works'
facility as well. I mean we're talking about moving forward with it, but there's a lot of
question as to what....what....what does that mean. So....um, I think...yeah, and I think
Trueblood sounds like a promising project, but again....you know, let's....let's evaluate it
further in terms of the, um, how it fits into that bigger picture, which I think, you know,
the climate action adap....inadaptation plans speak to me about the...like....like with the
bike master plan, the complexities of making priorities and that's where...I think the
advisory group, as well as staff, should be helpful in terms of understanding what makes
the most sense, uh, given all things considered.
Salih/I....I really also agree with everything that you said and...everybody said, and....but I
really wanna see the Public Work...well you know (unable to understand) same thing,
especially this is new building and we wanna see like solar on that building just....just to
start with and I guess will be really great if we can do that.
Cole/I guess for my purposes I'd like to provide a little bit of background. My recollection of
this process in terms of how we started is what we're trying to do is match Council's
vision, and at the same time deferring to our staff's expertise, and my recollection of the
direction that was given to staff, about a year ago, if I'm not incorrect, is that we asked
them for their recommendations to three projects specifically, which in their judgment
they thought would be the best and most suited for solar adaptation. That's my
recollection. Um, and then as part of that process and consideration, we've received this
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very detailed study from Bluestem,um, which does in my view have virtually all the
information we need in terms of budget, in terms of projected greenhouse gas emissions,
in terms of complexity in terms of solar installation—I mean these were engineers doing
the work. So what I would like to do is do a little bit of a balance in terms of...at the
same time we wanna give the staff the discretion to sort of move forward,but I would
like to be more clear in terms of the direction. I think we should begin planning for
Public Works' facility and by planning I mean that during our upcoming budget review
session, hopefully we could be in the process of getting some estimates in terms of what
that would cost. Obviously if we change our mind and we get sticker shock, we can
always change our mind at that point. Um, with Terry Trueblood, um, my view is I think
we should begin forward planning for that immediately, in terms of planning on that. In
terms of price, we're not talking about hundreds of thousands of dollars. It's my
understanding we're talking about under$75,000 for purposes of installation. Um, staff
has talked about feasibility and education in terms of highlighting it. I think this
particular project has the greatest payback. We know that already from the study. In
terms of education, the visibility—it does that. Urn, and so I think we can get that
movement. So again, I think I do wanna feel a little bit more urgency from that. Urn,
what I also like to do...is be more specific about, urn, Mercer. Urn, I would like the
Climate Action Committee to evaluate and assess the third-party purchase agreement
concept. I do think that we've given that short thrift. We've received numerous
recommendations in terms of the value, the cost benefits,because of the 30%tax
reduction on this. So I think we need to move forward on that. So I would at least like to
see more clear direction on that. Urn, you know we did try to give flexibility but I'm not
seeing any specific, um, recommendations, and I...I think, I do have concerns about
kicking it to another committee, albeit one with a lot of knowledge. I think they should
have been brought in at an earlier stage, um, and we just need to feel a little bit greater
sense of urgency on this question. Um, so I think Trueblood, hopefully, we can give
direction tonight, hopefully four votes to move forward on Trueblood. I think that would
be the perfect candidate to get started.
Throgmorton/I'm willing to agree with that because I've already laid out several components
that I think would be appropriate and they combine the Public Works' facility,
Trueblood, which is a rela....really quite an inexpensive project basically, uh, and public
education piece, and seeking advice from the...Advisory Committee about, uh,how any
further solar installations fit in to the broad picture of our climate action plan. So I think
that's a pretty good combination to do those four things. Are we okay with that? Yeah.
Um, I'm seeing like four or five nods here and I'll nod too! Okay! Any further
discussion about this? Are...are we clear enough, Geoff(both talking)
Fruin/ ...mention one thing on the Public Works' facility,just so you know how that's going to
come to you. We have....we have a placeholder in the budget, um, a very conservative
placeholder in the budget, because that system's still under design and those costs are still
being evaluated. We're probably still evaluating whether it's a purchase.....or power
purchase arrangement. So what...you'll see in the budget recommendation that comes out
is just that placeholder. Ultimately it's going to be a...it's a significant project, hundreds
of thousands of dollars. This is a big array. That decision will come before you, so you
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will still have that check, and if you get uncomfortable with the numbers, whether it's
emission reductions or costs, ultimately it'll be your....your final call, whether to pull the
trigger on that...on that project. And if you decide not to, those budgets dollars just
remain unallocated. You can shift 'em somewhere else or we just, you know, don't issue
the bonds or whatever, you know, that's a decision down the road.
Throgmorton/Okay, good deal. I...I'd like to bring up one last point, which is not directly
relevant to the question at hand, but it does address the topic in general. Ashley's' memo
notes that I had, uh, made a recommendation that we incorporate what's called the
`shadow price of carbon' into our payback and return on investment calculations.
`Shadow price' is a sort of a term of art. It refers to, uh, social costs or negative
externalities in terms of economics, associated with, uh, any particular project. So it
turns out that their, uh, bill hasn't been introduced in Congress,uh, that is consistent with
a resolution that we adopted back in, I don't know—February or something like that—
expressing support for a carbon fee and dividend approach. The carbon fee that is
proposed in this bill that is a bipartisan bill that's been introduced in Congress would, uh,
start with a$15 per ton of carbon emissions fee, and then increase annually. I don't...I
don't know what the bill says about increasing annually, but I know it does increase.
According to the original proposal, it would increase by$10 per year. So it would go
from$15 per ton, $25 per ton, to $35 per ton, and so on, and therefore put increasing
market pressure on, uh.....any activity that's heavily based on, uh, carbon-based fuels.
The dividend part is...would return the money to householders. So it's a way of...getting
into our minds the actual cost of using carbon-based fuels. It's far more costly than just
looking at dollars and cents would indicate. That's because climate change is the biggest
negative externality there is. So....I just wanted to make sure you kinda knew that,uh,
background. Okay! Can we move on? We've got maybe 10 minutes I guess. Move on
to clarification of agenda items. Thank you, Chief! See ya!
Clarification of Agenda Items:
Throgmorton/I wonder about Item 8a, which is a series of communications havin' to do with
ped mall benches. Yeah, so.....this is clearly a topic that's gotten a lot of attention and
I...I totally understand why attention's been drawn to it. I can tell ya I went over and sat
down and...in the benches today to make sure I knew what they all felt like. There're
actually four different kinds of benches out there, that I saw....and sat in, and I
understand the point about homeless people needing a place to sleep. But we've been
doing a lot over the past....how many years, I don't know, four or five years to change
the situation, the way homeless people are treated in our city. And I...I think it's really
important that....that people know that....we have been providing all of our officers with
crisis intervention training so that they know how to respond to homeless people or others
who are stressed for one reason or another; that we have an officer in the downtown area
who is assigned to work with homeless people and others, so they develop relationships
and treat homeless people with respect, rather than whatever they otherwise might be
treated with; uh, that we've been helping, uh...um, the...the (mumbled) construction of
the,uh, of the Housing First facility, that Shelter House is providing; that we're investing
in a Behavioral Health Access Center and enabling it to happen by rezoning, etc.; all of
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which has in part to do with homeless people and ensuring that they have adequate
shelter, even though they might...have had too much to drink or be on drugs or somethin',
they still would have access to shelter, which is the crucial point about Housing First. So
anyhow, I'm just very conscious of all that and, uh, feel a need to express it. I don't
know if any of the rest of you have anything to say about Item 8a. (several responding)
Cole/Go ahead!
Salih/I really...I agree with you, you know, Jim, you know the Council has been doing a lot to
end the homeless (mumbled) but you know, uh, I really....I start hearing people say it's
good benches, they like it the way it is. I start hearing another people who saying, no, it's
not good. We need to have, you know, without...some of them without the armrest, but
you know since we have like people in the community have debate on this, let us you
know, I really wanna suggest to the Council if we can do some of them with...with hand,
you know, the handrest, some of them with not. So we can satisfy everyone on this
community. You know, that's my suggestion really,to the Council, and I hope I can find
somebody to agree!
Cole/The only thing I wanted to get related to that question, I'm sorta one step before. Could
we get informa....cause it's my understanding staff has already ordered all of the benches
as part of our current planning. Is that correct or there are contracts that are signed?
Fruin/The....the contract for the ped mall, although it's a two-year project, there's one contract.
So the contract's been issued. It had all the specs in it. Um, I would assume that all
the....the benches have been ordered, even for the next phase. Uh, we would have to talk
to the contractor and the manufacturer and get that information.
Cole/If it wouldn't be too much trouble in terms of getting that information, before we get to
Maza's point, I would at least like to know what the cost to the City would be of....of a
possible changing from 100% where you can't lay down to maybe 10 to 25%, somewhere
around that range, um,because setting aside the homeless issue, I do think that there is an
issue about people just being able to lay down and read a book and enjoy the ped mall in
that way, but I wouldn't necessarily wanna do that if it were a....exorbitant cost or
extremely difficult to do, or logistically impractical. So what I was wondering is is that if
we could do a little tiny work session,maybe 10 minutes, in about a month or so with
staff to be able to go and get additional information, and then we could at least get that
information and then get to Maza's question, uh, in terms of possibly doing that 10 to
25%range?
Fruin/Yeah. Sorry, I....I smirked a little bit cause I don't know if it's possible to have a 10-
minute work session on this topic(laughter) Uh (both talking)
Cole/ ...especially with this bunch(several talking and laughing)
Mims/ ...quick memo (several talking)
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Fruin/We can put together some information. It's gonna take a little bit of time to talk with the
contractor and see exactly where things are, and I don't know if we can get a firm cost
estimate real quick. We tried to ballpark, uh, what the estimate would be to take out all
the benches that are even in and...and buy new ones and put those in. Basically just
change the whole bench plan for the entire project, not just the yet-to-be-done, and it's
probably about 400,000 and (several talking) rough staff estimate. Urn, very labor
intensive. If you see how those are bein' installed,they're....they're bein' bolted to the
sub-base and then the bricks are actually bein' cut individually and placed around, uh, the
legs of'em. So it's a very labor intensive, uh, process and commercial benches like that,
meant for this type of wear and tear, are expensive, but...we'd have to explore how we
can bring that cost down with some type of mixture and we can work with...I can work
with Ron and Scott Sovers, the project engineer, and...try to give you some rough ideas
on what that might be.
Throgmorton/I think it'd make a difference just to have say 10 benches (several talking) could
lie down. So we....we don't need (several talking) We just have a memo and then
people can talk about the memo.
Cole/Fair enough!
Thomas/I...I mean I, like Jim, I went out before the work session and sat on the benches and
tried to get a sense of that. I...I think, urn, the existing benches are pretty comfortable,
urn, and then we have the two wood types, one is more....kind of similar to the existing.
Has kind of a rounded shape to the back, which frankly I didn't find as comfortable, um,
but we've ordered them so...I....it's the same bench that's used on the Pentacrest I
believe, around the Pentacrest. But my feeling is is that....uh, it's.....the project's still
unfinished, so it's I think a little bit premature to be overreacting to.....what exactly to
do, uh,moving forward, but I do think there might be an opportunity,based on the
community comment, uh, for staff to look at how there can be adjustments. Um, it
looked to me like the mid-arm on those benches, across from the play area, uh, the...it's a
very simple mount. It's underneath the seat. So it doesn't look to be as difficult to, in
other words that...that bench looks like it could easily be adapted to no mid-arm, if we
were to choose to do that. Urn.....
Throgmorton/(both talking) ....one of the two-seater benches or....
Thomas/Yeah, I think it's only divided into two bays, uh, so there's one mid-arm, um, so I think
there's opportunities for adjustment. I think, you know, I think there were some
interesting comments, uh, you know the idea that the kids, for example, you know they
....a parent with two children, it might be better not to have that mid-arm, um, plus, uh,
people often like storing things on benches, you know, like putting thing down next to
them,rather than on the ground, uh, it's sort of a raised surface. So I think all of those
factors could....could be at this point. Maybe this is an opportunity with the phasing, we
have kind of an opportunity to think about it, um, given....the resources we have. I don't
I'm not anticipating or suggesting changing, urn, out the number or the, you know,
what it is we've already ordered, but refining the plan in some fashion.
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Taylor/That's what I would think too and I appreciate the community concern about the
homeless folks,but as Rockne and...and John has mentioned too, there...there are other
populations that also, uh,the benches are a concern, and uh, my particular concern, uh, as
a nurse and having treated a lot of these patients are...are the,uh, larger patients, that
wouldn't be comfortable in...in the half-size, and if it wouldn't be too late for us to....to
look at having...I would say even 30% of the benches being without the center piece,
would be acceptable, I believe.
Mims/I'm not inter...well, start back. We did a public input process, before we did the whole
ped mall design, and people had the opportunity, you know, to do that, and I realize
unfortunately lots of times public, and I'm guilty of this too, don't get involved until
(mumbled) see the results, okay? But having said that, I think, you know,particularly as
Geoff said, they'd looked at changing it all, at 400,000 I'm not interested in that at all,
and I...and I will say one of the things that staff talked about was in those public input
sessions and some of the things they were looking at was increasing the actual seating,
uh, the volume, of seating, okay? And it's interesting cause I just came back...did a trip
this last week and both times going through the airports, what you see is exactly what you
see in the parks. There were people sitting in virtually every other seat in the airport,
unless they were traveling together. People do not sent....tend to sit next to strangers if
they do not have to. It is just human nature. And so I think with those dividers, giving
that perception of your own space, um, you know I think that's what the intent was and I
think that's what it does. I spoke last time to the homeless issue. I think there's lots of
other bigger more important issues with, in regard to the homeless that we are doing
every effort to address, um, so L..I'm fine with what Rockne has suggested, if staff can
look, and not spend too much time, on what would it cost to change out a small
percentage of the benches, urn, and then we'll go from there.
Taylor/Back to the homeless issue, I would like to maybe hear....I didn't get a chance, I was
going to call Crissy over at the Shelter House to....to hear her views on this and if she has
any idea of....of, uh, what the percentage, if there are (several talking)
Mims/ She was quoted in the paper saying that this is about the last thing on her radar, that she's
concerned about finding home...homes for the homeless and she does not see the benches
as something(both talking)
Salih/I call her also. Yeah, I call her also and she said the same thing. She's, you know, really
concern, looking for place for homeless, not like...yeah,but this is now really(mumbled)
up to us here. I'm really suggesting that we go with what Pauline said, 30% of the
benches to be...figure out how much gonna cost (both talking)
Throgmorton/Well let's not make a decision tonight,but we...Geoff, could you provide us with a
memo, and you clearly hear a range of possibilities and we'll have to address this, some
time in the fairly near future, right? (several talking) Okay, good deal. So I think we're
done for the work session, uh, so we can just take a break and do whatever's necessary
and we'll revisit the...it could be that you wanna ask questions about the agenda, uh, but
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you know maybe...just bring particular topics up, after the agenda...(laughs) after the
meeting, formal meeting, is over. We're gonna take a break. We'll reconvene the work
session after the formal meeting. Yep, and we'll pick up with continuing this
clarification of agenda items, cause maybe there's somethin' you wanna talk about that
we won't really need to talk about during the formal meeting.
(BREAK FOR FORMAL MEETING)
(RECONVENE WORK SESSION)
Clarification of Agenda Items (cont.):
Throgmorton/All right, so we...were, I guess near the end of clarification of agenda items. Of
course we've gone through the agenda now, but was there anything anybody wanted to
bring up?
Thomas/Well I....I did wanna ask, or request, that staff, uh, send...plans and specifications to the
Friends of Hickory Hill Park,uh....for the Hickory Hill project. Is that...is that possible?
Do you have plans...I'm assuming you have sets of(both talking)
Fruin/ ....bids that were awarded?
Thomas/Yeah.
Throgmorton/Yeah.
Fruin/Yeah,we could do that.
Throgmorton/John, you know on that point, I just received a letter yesterday,uh, with some
news that surprised me, but it's relevant to the...uh, to the Friends of..Historic
Preservation and that is that Alicia Trimble has decided to move on and...I think that
means they will be looking for a new Director of Friends and I got the letter from Ginalie
Swaim. It was a fundraising letter from Ginalie. So....I.....I didn't know that was in the
works, but there it is. Yeah, and if...if any....if Alicia's listening or any of her friends,
uh, please convey to her....my, and I imagine the Council's, uh, thanks for her work over
the years. All right, anything else on the(both talking)
Thomas/I had another(both talking) another correspondence item which didn't make it into our
agenda,but there was correspondence, uh,between Rebecca Porter and, uh, Jiyuan Park
on Manville Heights.
Throgmorton/I didn't see that(both talking)
Thomas/I think Jiyuan's was distributed.....broadly if I'm not mistaken.
Throgmorton/No, it's not on any of the material we have before us.
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Thomas/Okay.
Taylor/It came to me.
Thomas/Okay.
Taylor/Just you and I (both talking)
Thomas/ I thought Rebecca sent it only to you and I but I thought Jiyuan had sent....can
correspondence be spoken about at Council then if it's not distributed generally(both
talking)
Throgmorton/It's not an item on the work session or the formal meeting agenda. I don't know,
it may be that that e...it's an email?
Thomas/Yeah.
Throgmorton/Yeah, so maybe that...it maybe it's in Kellie's inbox and it'll appear in our next
information packet (several talking)
Fruin/ It was addressed to me, and there were a few neighbors on it. I think one or two Council
Members, but....and then I thought the second emailer just replied all so if it was
distributed to a larger audience, I can double-check that.
Thomas/Okay.
Froin/We generally....we generally put it in a, if there's four...four or more Council Members
(several talking) I may have missed it; I'll double-check.
Taylor/ I had just a question on whether it might be a typo in 6c, in the consent calendar, the
Landfill dual-extraction system, uh, it's project estimated cost, project bid received, and
then it said project annual costs. Is that project actual costs? Instead of annual costs?
Froin/Should be actual. (both talking) Thank you!
Information Packet Discussion [December 6, December 131:
Throgmorton/Okay, anything else on the formal meeting agenda? If not let's go to the
information packets, December the 6th.
Thomas/On,urn, 1P4, which has to do with the, um...collision data at Linn and Washington.
Um, one....I just had one question, which was, and then a comment. Uh, in table 1 it
talks about....ran off the road to the right. (laughs) I was kind of wondering(laughing)
what...what happened there, um.....
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Mims/Went up on the sidewalk! (laughter)
Fruin/I'd have to (both talking)
Thomas/Aside from that....
Throgmorton/The driver's not here, John!
Thomas/Yeah (laughter) interesting that somehow it got reported, I mean it...maybe they ran
into something and that...is what generated the report, but I did....I did think it was
interesting that collisions, at least for this two-year period, since the stop signs went in,
are down from three to one. So it's....it's going in the right direction. Uh....since the
change, and...you know, there was some concern by Mary Gravitt about...it's the...the
risks there and it...at least with respect to the collision data, there's less of a risk of
collisions and there were no pedestrian, uh.....I don't believe there was any...I'm not
seeing it at the moment but I don't believe pedestrians or bicyclists were involved in any
of the collisions.
Mims/I mean I'm...I'm very comfortable with what we've done there, and I think it's always...
when you have stop signs versus stop lights, people do have to pay a little bit more
attention in terms of who's going, whose turn it is so to speak because you don't have the
actual lights, but the fact that every vehicle is coming to a stop,urn, I think makes sense,
and I think it's working fine.
Cole/And to that point, that's one of those sort of counter-intuitive things, that it's precisely
people's perception of perhaps more danger because there's not a light, but they're more
aware of their surroundings and that they're actually more active. So that's not a
coincidence that we're getting that lower number. So I think...and major kudos to John,
cause I think you're one of the peoples that proposed that, or persons that proposed that.
Throgmorton/I wanna make a suggestion. I'm conscious that Tracy is sitting out there and, uh,
she's the only staff person, other than Simon, sitting out there, and you're only here for
one topic, right? Can we jump to....IP#9, which is in the....the December 13th
information packet that's, uh, it concerns the South District Homeownership Program.
Salih/Yes!
Throgmorton/Yeah, so is that okay with everybody? (several respond) Okay, so....one of the
items on our work session agenda, pending list, is to, I don't know, fill out details
concerning the South District Homeownership Program,right? So is staff thinking that
this is, uh, more background information for us...what....
Fruin/Yeah, this is information that you requested. You asked us to go put this together. We
thought we would put it in, in the off chance we could have a short conversation and
(laughter) move on with the program, because(both talking)
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Throgmorton/(mumbled)
Fruin/ ....we've talked about, but if a large conversation needs to take place we'll...we should
probably schedule....we normally would of just scheduled it, but knowing we're going
into budget, we thought work session time's gonna be precious and we'll try to get it
done tonight.
Throgmorton/Okay. I...(both talking)
Mims/I'm...oh, go ahead!
Throgmorton/Well I have one quick reaction. I talked with Maz on this, about this on the phone
a little bit. Uh, I was imaging that in terms of, um....um, I'm tryin' to think of the right
noun. Priority potential occupants of....or potential purchasers....potential homeowners.
I was thinking at first, the first priority would be for people who are tenants, currently
tenants of, uh, duplexes or duplex units that, uh, appear to be available for purchase.
That....that's, and that's what your memo says is....yeah. All right, and then I was
imaging that second priority would be residents of the Taylor Boulevard and Davis Street
.....blocks. Not the whole larger neighborhoods. And that the third priority, if neither of
the first two worked out, that the third priority would be the larger neighborhood. So....
Hightshoe/When you say larger neighbor...what do you mean(both talking)
Throgmorton/The one you have a map of. Yeah. And by Taylor Boulevard I guess I mean from
the top to the bottom (laughs) from north to south, and Davis, I don't really remember the
map. I don't know how far(several talking) but I don't know if that's viable, frankly,
from a legal point of view to say Taylor Boulevard and Davis, but that....that's what I
was imaging and I wonder if you have any reaction to that and whether any other Council
Members had somethin' to say.
Hightshoe/No we don't have a problem. I don't know, it's not a fair housing if we do
preference(mumbled)
Dilkes/I think that's fine.
Hightshoe/ So we can....proceed that way.
Mims/ I kinda thought that's what it was too, that was....little narrower in scope in terms of the
initial priorities.
Throgmorton/Yeah, is that what y'all understood too? (several talking in background) I...I
can't year ya, Eleanor. Sorry.
Dilkes/I'm sorry! The decision is being made based on location not race or....so (both talking)
Throgmorton/Okay. So there'd be no difficulty in...inserting that as the (mumbled)
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Hightshoe/We'll probably send a letter to that whole neighborhood to see who's interested. I
mean we're first gonna talk to the tenants about if we find a place to purchase, we'll talk
to those tenants to see what their situation is—if they wanna buy that unit first. They
would be the first priority. Second priority, we could say anyone living on those two
streets. Then the next priority, anyone in that neighborhood. We....no matter what we
have to sell it to somebody below 80% of median income. That's just a federal
requirement. So...any buyer will be low to moderate income, but we can put that location
criteria on there for preferences.
Salih/Also, you know, you said here if tenant are not interested in homeownership, and
unwilling or unable to move with relocation assistance,the City will not purchase the
home. Great that the City is not going to purchase the home, if the people are not...I like
that, but....I think as soon as they say they don't want the homeownership, you should
not even give them a, like a choice of moving out and we will help you because you
gonna help them only for....I mean the City when I say you, sorry, but you know, the
City will help 'em only for (unable to understand) forever, you know,that's why I think
we just need to take that away....uh, the option of asking the...giving assistant for certain
year. I don't (mumbled) what the Council think.
Hightshoe/I don't think we can get around that, that's a federal requirement. So I appro...if we
approach them and we're gonna consider purchasing their property, if they want
relocation assistance, Home rules (mumbled) require it, we have to provide it. I can't say
they can't get it or they're....they don't(several talking)
Dilkes/I don't think...that's not what I heard. I think what you're saying is....that's it. If...if
(both talking)
Salih/Yes!
Dilkes/If they're not interested in homeownership, then we (both talking)
Salih/Exactly! That what I (several talking) Go to the next one, you know, you don't need
to....do that. (several talking)
Hightshoe/ ...if I'm understanding you right that means we approach a landlord. There's...if
there's a duplex so that landlord, or that property owner owns both, so if neither one
wants to purchase their existing unit, but they're willing to move like three houses down,
the landlord has another property, then that (both talking)
Salih/ ...same neighborhood? Or....or maybe they gonna move outside the neighborhood.
Hightshoe/We're gonna, I mean typically when we do relocation we try to encourage the same
neighborhood, but it's up to the tenant. Maybe they don't wanna live in the same
neighborhood (both talking)
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Salih/That's why I don't encourage that.
Hightshoe/No, but I'm just saying(both talking)
Cole/It would be their choice though (several talking)
Hightshoe/ .....only people eligible....I'd have to find a duplex where both owners are gonna
buy, we're not willing to open it up to Taylor/Davis Street? Is that....I'm confused by
that.
Salih/What you saying? (both talking)
Fruin/So if....if the tenant...if the tenant's not interested in ownership,that takes the house out of
the running for us to buy. You basically have to find a duplex where both tenants want
to, cause we're not gonna buy a half a duplex, right? (several talking) You have to buy a
whole duplex, so....
Salih/I understand!
Fruin/You've got a very....you're shrinkin' your pool quite a bit. And....and I guess our intent
here was, it's the...you know, we present the residents, the tenants I should say, with the
relocation package. This is what would be available. It's up to them. If they don't like
it, then we can....then we go away, but some may want it. And some may be in a
situation where the owner's told 'em, I'm not gonna lease again. So....they...you know,
they may take it. Maybe the owner plans to sell it and....on the private market. I think...
I think our....intent was to put that decision in the tenant's hands, and still if they say no
then (coughing, unable to hear speaker) walk away.
Salih/I really don't(unable to understand) That's still you are displacing people!
Mims/But they may want to move! You're not forcing them in any way.
Salih/How do you know that if you gonna pay the different in rent for 13 years, those people
will be able to continue paying on that. Maybe we gonna put them there and we pay, the
City will pay three years or two years of the different in the rent and after that the City
will walk away and those people cannot afford to do so again and we are the one who
causing this problem in the beginning.
Mims/I think it's important when the City approaches them and talks about the relocation
assistance that it's clear what we're gonna pay, how long we're gonna pay it. It doesn't
mean that they're moving to somewhere that's more expensive. I think we have to have
that discussion with them. It's not...I....I feel like you're making the assumption they're
going to be in a worse position financially, which isn't necessarily the case.
Salih/You make an assumption is not gonna be that case!
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Mims/No, I...I'm not (both talking) I'm not making an assumption at all. I'm saying you need
to have good communication. You don't know the place they're living, how much the
landlord's gonna raise the rent from year to year either. A move isn't necessarily bad for
a tenant,but(both talking)
Thomas/We're giving them a choice, correct?
Salih/But you know I talk to the people and I talk to the Black Voice Project and I think that's
what they wanna see, and I'm proposing what I been hearing. (unable to understand) I
don't know, that's what I feel. After I talk to the people, and that what I think is the right
thing. Don't even give them option to go nowhere. They (several talking)
Thomas/But they can say no!
Cole/They can say no. If they say no, then they don't have to go anywhere.
Teague/Tracy, do we know if there's any owners right now that are willin' to sell?
Hightshoe/Based on our initial letter, five landlords came back. So we have five potential
properties, but we didn't contact the landlords....or the tenants because we didn't know
your direction.
Teague/And do we know if any of those properties are empty at this point, or if...
Hightshoe/No, I didn't look at that, no. (several talking) investigate it further just because we
didn't know...
Cole/And so they would only be eligible to purchase if both tenants seek to stay and purchase
the property, correct?
Hightshoe/Seek to stay, or are willing to consider relocation. Cause with relocation we have to
pay the moving expense and then we have to pay the cost difference. So if it's in the
same neighborhood and the rent's the same,there's no money....you don't pay any
ongoing rental assistance.
Cole/And if they say no to relocation (both talking) not eligible,that that's my....so I think we
should keep that because if they say no, we're not gonna buy that property and we're
gonna go somewhere else. I like that. That's my understanding! I....I have a question,
um....relating to.....urn, page 2, um,November 2019 through March, uh,2019, you said
'sell homes to income qualified tenants with a preference for existing tenants in the unit
and then those already living in the neighborhood; the home buyer must meet the federal
homebuyer underwriting criteria, which considers housing expense and debt to income
ratios, a federal requirement. Um,the City can provide up to 35,000 of downpayment
assistance, based upon their need.' I know with the receipt of the Home funds we are
bound by federal rules in terms of that piece of it. But at least in terms of the 35,000 with
City funds, I seem to recall at a previous meeting we actually had a discussion on that
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precise issue, and at least as to that, there was a little bit more flexibility in terms of those
funds, cause those are not federal funds. Am I....remember we had that discussion and
someone stood up and said no you actually can?
Hightshoe/The homebuyer that goes (both talking) with Home funds they have to receive
homebuyer counseling. They have to meet the minimum requirements, you know, debt
to...loan to,the two ratios that I'm lookin' at, the housing expense ratio and the debt to
income ratio. They have to meet those. If there's some cushion there, that's fine, but
they have to meet those minimum cause we don't wanna place somebody in a house that
they can't maintain or the....they go in foreclosure.
Cole/ So what I'm wondering is, is that in order to try to meet those minimum thresholds, will
they be able to consider the receipt of potentially $35,000 (both talking) Okay, that's
what I wanted to clarify.
Hightshoe/To me those thresholds, there might be households that only need 20,000 of that
35,000 and you could spend that extra money on rehab or....um...whatever else.
Cole/Perfect!
Hightshoe/But basically that means if...with that 35,000 we provide, if they still don't meet
those ....the....the minimum criteria, then they're not a candidate to buy it.
Teague/The 140, is that like projected to be the cost per unit?
Hightshoe/Well, we estimated if it was 60,000 per home and we have 100,000 committed, then
we have 140,000 remaining, basically 35,000 a unit that we need, that we needed some
direction about where that source of funds would come from. So....
Salih/Yeah, speaking on that....I see here they said the fund will be coming from Housing Trust
Fund for Johnson County.
Hightshoe/There's a possibility.
Salih/I really encourage the fund to come as the same thing, and we discussed last time! We
said the 60,000 that being used for UniverCity program, we need to use the same amount
here, which is gonna be in this case 25 from the Home fund and 35. I don't wanna see
this is....because we are....we are doing it as neighborhood stabilization. We been doing
the same thing for 69 houses that we been....we solded out, and even the last house that
we spent 100,000 just to remodel the last house that we sold out as a UniverCity program.
I....I really would like to see the 35,000 coming out from the general fund as, you know,
the whole 140, to come out from the general fund as we did the same thing for
UniverCity program. And you know, I don't know how, but....why should we just take
from the money that we...putted aside for affordable housing? So we can just do this.
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Hightshoe/As staff, I...whatever you want the money to come from. If you direct me to apply to
the Housing Trust Fund for downpayment assistance, I will. If you guys say that you
have the money,that's great. You tell me you're going to take it from land banking or
(both talking)
Salih/ ....I saw it there, I saw that what you guys recommending but....
Fruin/Yeah, our recommendation is that you take it from affordable housing funds. If you
wanna take it from the general fund, it'd be an unbudgeted expense. We'd use re.....
basically reserves and certain plus dollars to do that. We have the dollars to do that, so if
you want general fund dollars, that's fine. Um, we can't divert from the UniverCity
program because we've already spent our UniverCity allocation for this year.
Salih/I'm talkin' we are not gonna do it this year, of course, you know this is just we talkin'
about it. I'm talkin' about next year. You know, and that's what I really propose.
Cole/ I would agree with the general fund concept, subject to review this January in terms of that
process,but urn, I've been a big fan of the UniverCity program and I think that I view
this as potential expansion, innovation on that program, hopefully. Sort of like a pilot,
um, and so I would support that as well.
Throgmorton/Tracy, we're talking about 35,000 times four units, is that right?
Hightshoe/(several talking) ...budgeted 240,000; Home was paying for 100,000, so it'd be
140,000. Yeah, 140,000 that we would need.
Throgmorton/Okay.
Hightshoe/Um, I just...I didn't know whether I should bring this up right now but at the last
Council meeting you guys directed Sand Development, the LIHTC developer for the
property on Rochester to....they could provide further targeting in rents, how much they
would need. They're gonna have a request. It's gonna go through HCDC this Thursday
for 200,000. So that request is gonna come to you as well, so you have 140,000 with this
request. You'll have a$200,000 request that HCDC reviews on Thursday. So I just
wanted to give you some heads up about what's coming down for affordable housing,
that's outside our affordable housing fund.
Fruin/I'll add to that. You...it hasn't reached you yet, but there's also a request for a...around
200,000 from the City for the Del Ray, additional money for Del Ray.
Salih/What's a Del Ray?
Fruin/Del Ray is the LIHTC project(both talking) so you've got between....between this and
the two....two programs there, you've got over half a million dollar in new affordable
housing requests that we've gotta....we've gotta figure out here in the next(both talking)
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Salih/To me those two different programs, for the LIHTC (unable to understand)but this one is
a University program and I wanna stick to that. I really wanna see that,because we
cannot give opportunity to 69 housing and when it come to this, the same program is
stabilizing the neighborhood, when it come to this one, we said, oh, we can take it from
somewhere else.
Cole/Weren't we talking about the general fund?
Salih/Yeah, general fund! Yes!
Throgmorton/Yeah, I'm gonna agree with Maz and Rockne on this. I think it is fruitful to think
about this as a....another neighborhood stabilization program. And therefore we should
be thinking about funding it in a comparable way to the UniverCity program. We'll see
how it goes. We'll do this one time, this coming fiscal year, or however long it takes
to...to do it, uh, and then....look....you know, consider the situation in the future,just like
we have been doing with regard to the UniverCity program.
Fruin/ So we'll work on that, uh, come January with your budget meetings, cause, uh,
you'll....you will see our recommendation only includes one UniverCity house for next
year. So if you wanna transfer UniverCity dollars to...to this program, you've got 60,000,
and my...the budget I'm recommending, uh, which will leave another 80,000 that we'll
need to add to the budget request that you see. So we can work through that in January.
Salih/Uh huh.
Throgmorton/Uh, does that sound reasonable to the rest of you? (several responding) All right.
I....any other questions for Tracy?
Salih/Thank you for your patient and a lot changing and you being doing awesome job. Thank
you. Tracy.
Throgmorton/Yeah,thank you. I should have asked you to come up earlier. (several talking)
It's only four after nine! (several talking)
Fruin/Can I summarize to clarify and....and make sure we have our marching orders? Uh,we'll
take....we'll take care of the budget issue in January. Uh,we're gonna make a three-tier
selection system, tenants, Taylor/Davis, then larger neighborhood in terms of preference,
and you are okay with us proceeding, which means we will start contacting landlords that
have expressed interest and....and talking to tenants. You're okay with (several
responding)
Hightshoe/ ...might take a while. I mean even though we've got these five we might run through
those five and have to send another letter, so might take some time.
Salih/Thank you!
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Hightshoe/Thank you.
Throgmorton/Okay! All right, can we go back to the December 6th information packet, IP #3,
why do all new apartment buildings look the same. I don't really wanna open up the
discussion about this,but I...struck me as a pretty informative and spot-on, uh, claim
about why we're seeing in our city and other cities around the country new apartment
buildings that look pretty much alike. I...and just the way it's written it's pretty, uh,
instructive. I like one phrase in particular. The phrase was, uh, I don't know, replacing
craft with equations, and that helps explain the sort of....geometric, angular, rectang...
rectilinear shape of all these things. All right, sorry, I don't wanna talk about that much.
Any...anything else in the rest of that information packet?
Salih/Yeah, I guess I have IP....10 maybe.
Throgmorton/December 6th, Maz?
Salih/(both talking)No.
Throgmorton/Well we'll move on back to 13. All right, let's go to the December 13 packet.
Taylor/IP12, I....I just found that rather interesting and I, uh, wanna thank Carol deProsse for
sharing that article, cause it's interesting concept, uh, cause historically, uh....I don't
even like to say the word! Cockroaches are thought of as not having much, uh, much
worth, uh, but instead this article makes you think of it, I think they termed it a bio-
technological pathway, uh, as far as converting food waste, and uh,just the thought of the
numbers. One company had 3.4 million of them. Another had 6 billion, and those
numbers just kinda make my skin crawl to think about it but it is a very interesting idea!
So, thank you, Carol, for sharing that.
Throgmorton/Other items in the January, or December 13'h packet?
Salih/IP10. The Stefanie report for Human Right about using the racial....toolkits. I think this
is really amazing. I love it, you know. I especially like the....how the Housing
Authority, it was very interesting for me that they, how they use, uh, survey to remind
like English professionally, you know, in like....this because it is really, uh, in the
Housing Authority there is many, many people of color and people that they don't...their
English is not the first language and it was really amazing for me that they been using
this to help out those people, which is great! Yeah.
Cole/ I know we're mentioning Kingsley a lot tonight, but Kingsley still deserves major kudos
for a lot of the groundwork he did on the diversity projects, so, Kingsley, I doubt you're
watching,but if you are, great job.
Throgmorton/I don't know, he might be! (laughter)
Cole/Hopefully he's not! But(laughter)
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Taylor/On the lines of that, with the equity, uh, all the information that was given it was kind of
interesting that through kinda throughout some of the reports though it was mentioned
that transportation is a big barrier for a lot of....lot of these things and I think we need to
keep that in mind when we do our transit study and....and give that a lot of thought.
Salih/Yeah! I highlight that (unable to understand) thank you for saying it! Yeah.
Throgmorton/ So I should mention IP #6, uh, which is concerns a memo I wrote concerning a
Council internship program. I'm gonna say somethin' that's sort of, uh, for the benefit
of, uh, whoever's watching. So as you know, uh, I proposed in a December 6 memo to
you that we consider creating a one-year trial program in which paid interns from the
University of Iowa, or Kirkwood, could work for individual Council Members. I also
propose that this trial program be limited to not more than three Council Members, and I
recognize that details would have to be worked out, including tasks, constraints,hours of
work, and so on. I think that brief December 6 memo, well I don't think. That brief
December 6 memo seems to have generated some negative feedback in social media and
elsewhere, and as you know in retrospect, I should have been clear in my memo that I am
not asking you tonight to approve this proposed program, or to discuss it at length
tonight. I simply want to find out tonight whether four or more of you would like to
discuss the idea further during a future Council session. That's all I intended (laughs) to
be doing, and....and not opening up a deep, uh, conversation about this specific topic.
So....
Mims/I'm not, I mean we discussed it during our strategic planning, back in January when we
were interested in moving forward, and I'm not quite sure why it's coming back now.
Salih/Because I'm gonna say why. You know the first thing I was really surprised this went to
the media. As the Mayor said, it was just meant to be asking if there is somebody inter...
and the Council Member who ask our Mayor to bring this, you know, for discussion. Let
me just take my....cause I wrote a note about it, and I cannot see! Bring this for
discussion and let me tell you why. One of our goal as a Council has been (unable to
understand) with University of Iowa. As a part of this process, and after I talk to many
students, who would like to be engage in the government in the future, I wanted to
explore cooperation with some classes at the University of Iowa, to see whether the
University of Iowa student class could work with us on a matter of sharing concerns, such
as climate change, affordable housing, and other urban planning. I never intend to
propose this as a paid internship opportunity, but rather as education opportunity that
could benefit the student(unable to understand) and the community especially. And I
think this is, could have really positive, you know, benefit in the future for....for
everyone, but I did not intend that. I don't know who took it to the media, but I...I really
encourage people to find out about exactly what the person proposes meant (unable to
understand) in the media and make the people just start like assumption. Like I been
receiving a lot of call, lot of attack on social media about this, you know,but I'm not
afraid! I always say what I wanna say, and you know, that what about me and I just tell
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you now what I meant. Hopefully people talk to each other before throwing anything to
the media. Thank you.
Taylor/I'm....I'm glad you brought that up, Jim, and your comments too, cause I too was kind
of surprised that this was seen as a newsworthy item, uh, and that even certain elected
officials have been weighing in on it, uh,with comments before we as a Council even
really fully discussed it,uh, the proposal with more information on it or even any
guidance to Jim from us, uh, as to the possible usage of an intern, so...I was really
surprised at that, and I would like to take a little bit more time to talk about it....at some
point.
Cole/I...I would not like to. I support the concept, I think we've all been trying to for a long
time to figure out sort of how do we unlock this....this cooperation with the University of
Iowa in terms of really facilitating all the talented students they have,plus with the needs
that we have. So, in the abstract, I am supportive of that concept. However, I'm a big
believer in that shifting process of the strategic plan. Uh, this did not get the support at
that early stage. Um, strategic plans can be modified, urn, but I don't think we should
modify the strategic plans,unless there are, you know, extreme circumstances to,uh,
cause us to reconsider some of our assumptions in the original strategic plan, and I don't
think that those are present now. I think we need to focus on the strategic plan that we
have. Uh, so I would not support further exploration, under the extent that this does
remain a critical issue that we may wanna explore, it should go to whoever's elected the
next Council for their strategic plan review. So that's where I'm coming from at this
point.
Throgmorton/ So I should probably elaborate just a little bit. Uh, Maz and I had a brief
conversation and, uh, at one of the events we went to, and it was a quick conversation. I
understood Maz to say it would be helpful for her to have some support from an intern of
some kind. I probably jumped too quickly. Uh, at the time I said, well, I cannot make
that decision on my own, I'll bring it to the Council and the Council can make its own
judgment, but then I put it into language and that's where I probably jumped too quickly,
cause I didn't really fully understand what you had in mind.
Salih/It was two second...yeah.
Throgmorton/Yeah and instead what I thought was....as you, uh, alluded to, Susan,we had
already talked through this in the strategic plan so I did not wanna bring that back up. So
I thought, okay, I need to modify it in some fashion, so okay. I'll make it into a
temporary program and put a cap on the number of Council Members who could possibly
be eligible to,um...uh,participate in the internship program, and then just open it up, see
if y'all were interested in talking about it more. I....I'm not pushin' it by any means, and
if there's a better way, uh,to work with, uh, interns—paid or in...uh,unpaid through the
University or Kirkwood, I'm all for that. Uh, in fact I had a lot of interns (laughs) work
for me at the University, and I should tell you also—50 friggin' years ago I worked as an
intern for a member of the Board of Aldermen in Louisville, Kentucky, and I found it to
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be a very instructive experience! But I'm not....I'm not pushing this proposal. I just
wanted to see if y'all had (both talking)
Teague/I appreciate Maz given her explanation. Um, I'm very new to the Council as all of you
know, but urn, I send staff questions and I'm not sure that an intern....I think an intern
actually would have to go to staff to get my questions answered, and so if I'm not
mistaken, the City of Iowa City has....intern opportunities, and so for me, I think, urn, to
cut out the middle man of an intern, in my opinion, that will turn to staff and say, `Where
do I find this information?' and staff guides 'em through it, my personal thought is that
we continue as we are, talkin' to the staff. I can tell you sometimes I feel like I'm askin'
too many things, and I try to (laughs) you know, I go back but I've been encouraged to
just ask and I've never gotten any type of resistance. It's always welcomed. Um, you
know, I get answers,uh, very quickly and very thorough, so I think that, you know,
maybe the City, you know, could....if we're feelin' like we're burdened, maybe, urn,
that's where we need to, you know, within ourselves realize that we're not a burden and
the City really,the staff is really willing to help, urn, and you know, in terms on that end,
um, could be a little more political, where maybe that, you know....I don't know, assign
someone for City staff that...that works with Geoff and sends a response. I'm not sure.
Cole/Can I say one quick thing? I know you didn't intend to make this into a long discussion,
so I'll make it really quick. Um, to respond to that point though, what if there is a
situation where we receive feedback from members of the engineering community. I
think for example of storm water, where we get some grumblings from time to time that
we....that we're out of date. And we then bring it to staff and staff says no we're not,
we're doing the right thing, and they can totally have that position. But I do think at
some point in the future,perhaps strategic Council....at a strategic planning level, at a
future time, the Council may wanna discuss the optimal conditions under which they can
innovate for policy, urn, cause I do think that we have to have to some degree a policy
making role. So if we're in a situation where we can at least disagree with where maybe
a staff position is, on a particular issue, that there should be a mechanism for us to just get
a second opinion. I don't view second opinions as an insult. I view it as a part of
professionalism. I know sometimes there's a case (mumbled)United States Supreme
Court where if there's no one to brief an issue or they don't....they need a different
opinion, sometimes a little point of counsel,just for purposes of hearing that different
out, so I think we should close the issue for now, cause it did not make the strategic plan
pro, uh,process. I think there may be a point in the future where we would evaluate what
happens under that scenario if we wanna move policy, um, how do we do it if there is a
difference of opinion, urn, internally within staff, cause that may happen from time to
time.
Throgmorton/Okay (both talking) I think there's not a majority support for, uh, pursuing this
particular idea. Uh, you and I should talk afterwards,uh, about other possible ways (both
talking)
Salih/ Sure,no problem!
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Throgmorton/Anything else on the December 13th packet? Like, I don't know, continuous
versus ruptured cities (laughter)
Thomas/Yeah, well this is sort of the third in a series of unplanned series, you know, we've,
Geoff posted a couple weeks ago...or meetings ago,the strong towns article on why we're
only seeing luxury housing, and then,uh, more recently the...you know, uh, you know,
the one about why are all new apartment buildings looking the same. This is....this is yet
another that, um, that I encountered and I felt it...spoke again to a very, what I see as very
important issue that we're facing, uh, in Iowa City, as well as cities across the world, and
it framed it in a way that I just found was really compelling, this notion of the continuous
city, uh,which is referring really to that notion of urban planning that I've been
supportive of, which is the idea that continuity e....extend to a city, uh, the traditional
city, where you have kind of basically what we're advocating, uh, or was advocated in
the Riverfront Crossings plan, where you urbanize an area, uh,by increasing densities to
support walkability and all those other values. Urn, but I found the continuous city, it's a
very interesting way of expressing that, uh, both spatially and temporally, in terms of
some time. And then contrasting it to the ruptured city. So you, if you do not pursue the
goal of the continuous city, that fabric can be ruptured. It can be ruptured either by
buildings or transportation projects, and that can do considerable damage to a city. Uh,
I....so anyway,that I found was a....a very, uh, powerful way of framing something that I
think we've been discussing, or at least I've been emphasizing, uh, for some time now.
Taylor/ I liked a quote in there, John, that,uh, build cities that people enjoy inhabiting. I like
that. Food for thought!
Mims/I just mention IP8, thank Eleanor for that, and Jim's request. Uh,just kind of clarifying
some of the issues in terms of; um, our process and decision making if, uh, the developer
comes back formally requesting the height bonuses. That was good information.
Throgmorton/Yeah, thanks for writing that Eleanor(several responding)
Mims/I'm gonna jump back to IP6 for just a second, cause some comments were made about
this, uh, making it to the newspapers. Um, I received a phone call from Zachary Smith at
the Press-Citizen, which I do occasionally, and maybe I'm sure he probably calls other
Council Members,just asking `anything going on, you know, that I need....that I oughta
know about,' and it came on the heels of having received that email, uh, from Jim. I felt
it was newsworthy, um, I felt it was newsworthy because a....it was written as a proposal.
It was not written as....do we, can we get four people to agree to discuss this in....in a
work session. It was written as a concrete proposal for a paid internship program. I felt
that was newsworthy and so I shared....it was a public document at that point in time. It
had been addressed to Council, as well as to all seven Council Members individually, and
to the City Manager. So I was not violating anything in terms of public record and
because it was presented to us as a specific concrete proposal, I felt it was newsworthy
and I shared it with him. So just to get that out on the table, that's how it ended up in the
paper. I would encourage all Council Members in the future if there is an issue that you
are interested in having us discuss and maybe put on a work session that you call and talk
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to other Council Members, maybe to give them a heads up and give kind of your
background on it, and then bring it up in the work session to say 'can we get four,'
because the minute you start putting things in writing and....particularly to all of us, I
think it....I think it takes on a lot more life,particularly when it was presented as you
presented it, Jim, in that email. Urn, that maybe people don't intend. So sometimes
verbal discussions are better ahead of getting certain things in writing.
Salih/And by the way, I receive also, Susan, call from Zach, all the time, but....I don't think we,
you know, you can just make assumption about something and just tell the newspaper
about it. That's my own idea and you know....I.....you didn't even know what's going
on about it and just give it to the news? I don't think that's (both talking)
Mims/What I knew about it (both talking)
Salih/ It seem like you given out like as if you just wanna like make some people look bad.
That's it, that's (both talking)this is my first time really, you know, experience
something like this and this Council, or you know, attack or anything. Maybe you guys
get used to it or something like that, I don't know, but I just feel like this is really for the
people who working together and we being like a team. Yes we disagree many thing but
we agreeing many thing, uh, for the best of the city. We just have to like slow down a
little bit before we can jump to the media. Make sure you understand (both talking)
Mims/I wanna make one more comment, please, because...in Jim's email to the Council
Members, there was no indication that any Council Member had talked to Jim at all about
this. I had no idea(both talking)
Salih/ ...reach out...
Mims/It did not, not in Jim's original one. In his follow up email to two Members,to two
Council Members at a time,he said that he had been contacted by a Council Member. So
when I read Jim's email of Thursday, December 6th, there was absolutely no indication
that any Council Member had had any contact with him regarding this issue. It came
across entirely as Jim's idea presenting this paid internship program. So,this was not
meant in any way when I talked to Zach to disparage you, to criticize you, to call you out,
because I had absolutely no idea that any Council Member had had any discussion with
Jim about this topic.
Salih/ Still just...in general, we don't have to....we have to slow down before we can go to the
media. We are a team. And we are working together, and I hope we don't have to go
and just (unable to understand) even call me or call Jim or call any of the Council (both
talking)
Mims/ I didn't know you had anything to do with (both talking)
Throgmorton/Hold on!
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Salih/Yeah, I...I'm just telling, you know, I really would like to lay out my ideas, and when I
think about something(unable to understand) need to say it and I have like this is, uh,
freedom of speech and I'm not saying something like unpolite or anything. I'm just
saying what I think as a team we should do and how we can work together, but you didn't
(unable to understand)
Throgmorton/Please,please, let's not make more of this than there is. I made a mistake! And
the mistake was not being clear about what I wanted the Council to consider tonight. My
mistake, and I, you know, so let's not make it into a really big traumatic(both talking)
Salih/Yes, no problem!
Throgmorton/So, uh, and, you know, next time I'll take a little more care in writing my emails
or letters or whatever they might be, but it's my mistake. My bad! And we need to move
on.
Salih/No problem! We learn from there.
Throgmorton/Yeah. Okay, so, uh....are we ready to go to Council updates?
Teague/I have a work session proposal. I don't know when to (both talking)
Throgmorton/ Sure!
Teague/All right. So this is in regards to transportation. Um, I know that we have the
transportation study and just want to see if I can put it on the work session so that we can
get an update, um, about the transportation...the transportation study.
Throgmorton/You mean the transit study?
Teague/The transit study, yes. In addition I just wanted to maybe, urn, talk about...get some
information about,um, what would it look like if there was regional services, uh,regional
transportation, and I think, urn, if maybe Kent Ralston or someone can,uh, give us like
what's happened in the past, um, what are the benefits, what are the hurdles, um, if there
was a regional system, urn, and this regional system I think would somewhat be in
regards to Coralville, Iowa City, um,North Liberty potentially, uh, some of the other, uh,
SEATS, and so that is the proposal that I have to bring to the work session.
Cole/As to the first I would support that. As to the second, correct me if I'm wrong, that's a
super-complicated issue in terms of unifying the systems. I'm not saying we shouldn't
address it, we could probably peripherally address that, but my recollection is that's a
super-com....unless I'm wrong.
Fruin/To create a taxing district, by State code we're not big enough to create a transportation
authority, which would be a separate taxing district. We could through a 28E
arrangement,just an agreement with cities, run a regional service, like we do with
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Johnson County SEATS. Urn, when we went into the transportation study, talks with the
other cities, uh, it was pretty clear early on that, urn, that wasn't of interest to Coralville
and the University. So we didn't push that issue, and I don't think it ever made it up to
your level. It was more just staff discussions. So I think if you wanna...if you guys
wanna have that level...or discussion, we can help frame that for you. Ultimately it's
going to take political leaders to political leaders in communities to...to get that support.
Cole/I would support a work session.
Throgmorton/You're already thinking about having a work session about the transit study, aren't
you, an update on where that stands?
Fruin/Urn, we will have a consultant selection for you, uh, sometime in early 2019. We just got
the proposals back December 10th. So we're reviewing those, Coralville's reviewing
those, University's reviewing those. We'll probably bring firms in to interview, uh, it's a
process,but ultimately that'll be a contract that we hold, that you will have to approve.
Uh, I don't know if that will require a work session item with Council or not, but....we...
we definitely, if there is going to be a....a desire to study a regional system, you want that
included in your scope, so sooner rather than later would be best for that type of
discussion.
Throgmorton/Yeah, I...I think Bruce knows the conversations he and I have had together about
this. I don't think it would be fruitful to open up this regional discussion about
transportation in general in terms of combining systems. That's a very complicated
thing, and as I mentioned it's....I'm aware of 20-years worth of talk about how great it
would be to combine systems and how hard it is to do that(laughs)
Teague/Sure.
Throgmorton/Yeah.
Teague/And I respect that. I mean I think right now is just asking for a periphery view of what
that, what's been done in the past,what conversations have happened, uh, and minimally
you know, uh, if we were to do it, what would it involve and urn, the complications. So
it's not gettin' into detail but it's just givin' us an overview of if we....to give us
information at this point,urn, we....you know, if it's somethin' that we wanna move
forward with, after a briefing, then we can decide that as a Council, um,but I think we
have a transit, uh, the transit study corrin' right now. Now will be a great opportunity
just to visit the big picture and then if it's somethin' that's not of interest, it's way out of
our scope, at least we've had the opportunity to discuss it.
Mims/The one thing that Bruce is bringing to the table that I think is...is particularly worthwhile
would be maybe to have Kent Ralston come and give a 10 or 15-minute presentation just
on kind of the background of transit. He understands the federal funding and the
difference in funding between the University and Coralville and us and, urn, you know,
the difference in wages and unions and some of that stuff that...because I think there will
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be a lot of people in the public who may say, or question, you're going through all this,
you're doing all this transit study,why aren't you looking at combining the systems, and
so to have him give us kind of a brief, and I realize it's long and complicated, but limit it
(laughs)to kind of the....these could be the pros, but these are all the complications to
doing it. I think it's gonna be very clear that we cannot do it right now, and I personally
do not want to delay this transit study, but I think to....do it in a way upfront kind of right
now that makes it easier for all of us to respond to the public when they ask, well why
aren't you having them look at combining the systems. It gives us some real bullet points
to respond with in saying we talked about it, we thought about it, but...so rather than
necessarily a much time in a work session, if we kinda limit Kent to a 10-minute
presentation, I think that would be worthwhile.
Throgmorton/That'd be kinda what you want, isn't it?
Teague/Absolutely, yes.
Throgmorton/Can we do that, Geoff? (several talking) All right, anything else?
Fruin/I have one quick item related to the pending list. We haven't scheduled anything in
January and I....I probably won't because I'm pretty sure there's going to need to be
some budget discussions, um, but however as you may recall the Council recently, um,
sent an advisory recommendation against a rezoning out on American Legion Road. The
Board of Supervisors has deferred their vote. They have a provision. There's a provision
in the fringe area agreement that that's very similar to when we have consultations with
P&Z. If there's a disagreement with the City on a rezoning matter, uh, for the....the
Johnson County Board of Supervisors, there's supposed to be a Resolution Committee
that meets quickly to discuss that and hopefully resolve it before they take their final
vote. Uh, at their last meeting the Board of Supervisors appointed two Supervisors—I'm
unclear who those two are—and, uh, Josh Broussard, the Planning Director, to serve on
that committee and they've asked, urn, that we appoint a committee of elected officials
and staff, urn, the idea is three from both jurisdictions, to iron that out in hopes that they
can put that back on their agenda on January 24th. So I'm looking to the Council to see if
I could,uh, get a volunteer or two that could join, um, City staff, uh, in having those
discussions with the County. Uh, I don't think it'll be very time-intensive, but you
already know your time in January's booked pretty heavy with some extra budget
meetings. And I don't have any dates or times,just work with your schedule.
Thomas/I'm....I'm happy to volunteer.
Teague/ I would be as well. (several talking)
Fruin/It's up to you to decide (laughs) I think two....two would be fine. We'll have you work
with, uh, someone in our Planning Department.
Throgmorton/So John and Bruce.
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Fruin/Okay, John and Bruce? Okay. We'll be in touch. Thank you.
Throgmorton/Okay, anything else?
Salib/No, thank you.
Throgmorton/All right, I think we're done with our work session tonight. Thank you.
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